This is a rush transcript from "The Five," May 23, 2016. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
KIMBERLY GUILFOYLE, CO-HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Kimberly Guilfoyle along with Juan Williams, Eric Bolling, Dana Perino and tom Shillue. It's 5 o'clock in New York City and this is "The Five."
A first in the 2016 presidential race, Donald Trump has overtaken Hillary Clinton in an average of national polls. RealClear Politics shows Trump slightly ahead of Clinton, he has 43.4 percent and she's at 43.2. Before now, national polls always heavily favored Clinton. Her lead slipping since Trump became the presumptive GOP nominee, but she said, "Pay no attention to the polls."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HILLARY CLINTON, DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Polls these far out mean nothing. They certainly mean nothing to me. And I think if people go back and look, they really mean nothing in terms of analyzing what's going to happen in the poll. We are not going to let, at least my campaign is not going to let Donald Trump try to normalize himself in this period. I do not want Americans and, you know, good thinking republicans as well as democrats and independents to start to believe that this is a normal candidacy. It isn't.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GUILFOYLE: Trump says his numbers are only going to keep going up. Here is why.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESUMPTIVE REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: She's ineffective. Bernie Sanders said she's not qualified to be president and he meant it. And he said it because, you know, frankly, with her decisions, you look at, you look at Libya, you look at offshoots of Libya, Benghazi, et cetera, it's just so many different things. We could go on for days. When you look at her decisions, just bad judgment, she suffers from bad judgment. And that's Bernie Sanders saying it. I mean, he has, you know, been rather nice to her. He didn't pick on the e-mails, which I think was a big mistake. I'm going to pick out -- I'm going to pick up big league, because frankly, she shouldn't even be allowed to run for president.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GUILFOYLE: Whoa! Some fighting words. All right, RBI.
ERIC BOLLING, CO-HOST: Hmm.
GUILFOYLE: One of your nicknames.
BOLLING: Me?
GUILFOYLE: Yeah, I want to go over the numbers with you, because this is an average of polls.
BOLLING: Is this the real timeline? Should we do that?
GUILFOYLE: Yeah, because this is the way, this is -- we have been following it very closely. And then Juan, you've got something to say.
BOLLING: The first poll taken after Donald Trump in June, in the middle of June. And now, he has 1 percent. He's the last place of 1 percent. And everyone said the establishment, the last said, oh, you know he can't get out of the basement. He'll never give anyone a run for the money. Then he started to lean and then, well, he can't get 30 percent, that's a ceiling, and then 40 percent was the ceiling. And then, oh, you know what? The republican nominee can't even break 50 percent, so how can he possibly be the nominee. He'll never be the nominee. Then he took out 50 percent. He became the presumptive nominee. And then it was, oh, you know what, but head-to-head, he's getting crushed by Hillary, 15 points. Well, that was the debate for awhile. And as those earlier polls rolled off the RealClear average, the ones where she was leading by a lot, and time went forward, he was the presumptive nominee, the older ones where she was leading became -- they left and the newer ones where he came closer into a point where this week, for the first time, Donald Trump now leads Hillary for the first time ever in the average. Not an outlier, in the average. So as he goes, he gets stronger. But for some reason, the never Trump crowd just never believes it.
GUILFOYLE: OK. So these are all still within statistical margin of error, right, Juan? Now, some people have said, "Hey, well, he's getting the bump which is, you know, a customary, to be expected when someone becomes the presumptive nominee, whether GOP or democrat. What else do you have to say to defend this rise?
(LAUGHTER)
JUAN WILLIAMS, CO-HOST: I don't have to defend it, it's real. I think that what we seen, if you look at the pattern is, the Trump has been picking up momentum. So it's not one poll. I think it's in several polls, so we had two major polls over the weekend, NBC/Wall Street Journal, ABC/Washington Post. One has Clinton lead, one has Trump in the lead, but the point is they're both within margins of error as you said, Kimberly. The big point here is that what we are seeing is in this phase of the 2016 cycle is republicans, really consolidating around Donald Trump. He is plus 14 in terms of republican support in the last month. That's where this is coming from.
GUILFOYLE: That's a big number.
WILLIAMS: Right. So that -- what we are seeing is that the republican base and much of it in opposition to Donald Trump in terms of their votes, more than 70 percent are now saying, look, he's the nominee. I'm going to get on board. You have people like Mitt Romney still not on board, complaining, yammering about taxes. People saying, hey, this is a guy that flip-flops, he doesn't hold to orthodox opinions, Paul Ryan and the rest. But for the most republicans they say, if he's the nominee, so I'm a republican, I'm on board.
GUILFOYLE: All right Dana, do you think that it is surprising at all? Does it stand out to you that he's been able to kind of even get within this statistical margin of error pretty quickly, because in the beginning the numbers were --
DANA PERINO, CO-HOST: The rate is impressive, certainly. For a long time, I remember even last summer, talking about Hillary Clinton, who would probably have 43 percent of the country that will vote for her, no matter what. And 43 percent of the country who will never vote for her, no matter what. And in this election cycle like other general election, I think he gets -- finally, the republican nominee -- yeah. We had a terrible -- very interesting primary process. That consolidated. Now you see republicans saying, OK. I actually thought that Holloman Jenkins and the Wall Street Journal on Saturday had one of his best columns. If you are not persuaded yet, to vote for Trump and you are republican, he made a very good business case. So I've heard people to take a look at that if you're still on the fence. So 14 percent of the countries, probably up for grabs at this point. Problem for her is that, she doesn't get better on the trail. She continues to lose primaries. I also think that her, her point about not allowing Donald Trump to look like a normal candidate. That's what she was saying on "Meet the Press." That's actually the appeal. They don't want a normal candidate. So she's searching for language. In fact, she rolled out another line today, stronger together, which doesn't really all that genuine. I mean, it's not been taken genius to come up with that. But she's trying to figure out a way to unify her party so that she could at least keep these numbers even, because I think the risk in the next three weeks until the California primary, if she doesn't put Bernie Sanders away, is that Donald Trump will pull way ahead up until she can unite the party.
GUILFOYLE: Tom, so when you look just kind of the math here, Donald Trump was able to take out, I mean 16 like heavyweight champions in terms of guys that really had and Carly, considerable experience, a lot of support behind them and money. And Hillary is though, sort of faltering here, trying to knock out, you know, the Venezuelan socialism proponent.
TOM SHILLUE, GUEST CO-HOST: Yeah. Well, I agree that the -- this is not a normal candidacy. I just saw her say that on video. This is not a normal candidacy. I mean, Trump can use that. That could be his campaign slogan.
GUILFOYLE: Yeah.
SHILLUE: So yes, I think going forward, it's just normal enough. That's the thing. He could have run a third party candidate in the beginning, but he was just -- he was just not normal enough, but he went for the republican nomination. Now it is a normal candidacy. Once he gets the nomination, he is the republican nominee. So it's just normal enough to beat Hillary Clinton. And I'm not surprised with these numbers, because if the republicans -- Juan, you said it, it's the republicans were on the fence, and they all just kind of joined up. So he gained about six to eight points there. And now, he's got -- the most interesting thing is working on blacks and Hispanics. He hasn't even done it yet, but I'm interested to see what he's going to do. They have to do something.
WILLIAMS: That could be something
GUILFOYLE: And the NRA, coming out too strong.
BOLLING: And the NRA. And that you probably have, I think you have a sound bite from --
GUILFOYLE: Yes.
BOLLING: From Trump on the Second Amendment, which I think is huge. He's playing that up. But let's --
GUILFOYLE: Yes.
BOLLING: A couple of things very quickly. But just give me two seconds on this.
GUILFOYLE: Yup.
BOLLING: Mitt Romney had a very, very rough go in 2012, very rough go. This is -- if this is simple for Donald Trump to win the Electoral College and become the next president, it's this simple. Ohio and Florida, you have to get it. You gonna have to get it in any way, no matter what, and if you -- you snicker, but it shouldn't be that big of a thing to do.
WILLIAMS: Oh, no, no.
BOLLING: Donald Trump polls very well in Ohio .
WILLIAMS: Oh, God.
BOLLING: . with the unions. He has the union support. He may get some democrat support in Ohio. He does very well in Pennsylvania and then, here is the big one. Pennsylvania with Hillary Clinton's coal comments, Pennsylvania could actually become in play. Ohio, Florida, all you need is either Pennsylvania or Michigan, and you win. It's not that (inaudible) and order.
WILLIAMS: Can I respond to the (inaudible)?
GUILFOYLE: Yeah. And then (inaudible).
WILLIAMS: Let me just say --
GUILFOYLE: Right.
WILLIAMS: If you look at the electoral map, it is very hard.
BOLLING: That's all it is, Juan.
WILLIAMS: No, no, no.
BOLLING: Take everything that stays the same and just --
WILLIAMS: Allow me --
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: Allow me to speak to your point.
BOLLING: OK.
WILLIAMS: That you also after --
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: There's nothing wrong, Eric. It's what you have to do is understand what Tom was talking about, is you have a growing number of Latino voters in specific, but also black voters, highly energized against Trump who will be coming out. In addition to which, when you are talking about something like flipping Ohio or Pennsylvania, which is, I mean, I don't think Pennsylvania has gone republican in years, but if you, you also that have to consider --
BOLLING: Flipping Ohio and Florida.
WILLIAMS: Right. I mean it's just --
BOLLING: He needs that.
WILLIAMS: It's just too much, even if he wins those.
BOLLING: Then that's -- well, give it up, Juan.
WILLIAMS: I agree.
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: You got the point?
GUILFOYLE: Yeah.
WILLIAMS: But I just want -- can I finish the point? Which is that, Hillary is looking at flipping Arizona and Georgia because there is such energy among the Latino voters. Right now, Fox and Latino poll, go look at it if you want to see it.
GUILFOYLE: Right. All right, but thank you, it's a nice plug for the Fox News Latino.
WILLIAMS: Sure.
GUILFOYLE: We love them. All right, on top of everything else, Clinton and Trump are also now squaring off over gun rights in America. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Hillary Clinton wants to abolish the Second Amendment, just remember that. We are not talking about changing. She wants to abolish the Second Amendment. So we are not going to let that happen, I can tell you that right now. We are going to preserve it. We are going to cherish it. We are going to take care of it, OK?
CLINTON: He would overturn President Obama's actions to strengthen background checks. He said that also, on his first day in office, he'd mandate that every school in America allow guns in classrooms. Every school, he said. If you want to imagine what Trump's America will look like, picture more kids at risk in violence and bigotry; picture more anger and fear.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GUILFOYLE: Or more children alive since there are someone there to protect them. All right Dana, what do you think? This is a strong argument. It is very polarizing. People are very all in about Second Amendment or those that are obviously concerned about gun violence as well in the country.
PERINO: Well, a group that both of them have some trouble with is independent women. So she's always done not as well with independent women as her opponents. And Trump doesn't do as well with independent women. Now they will claim that it is getting better. But if you look at that, what I just said it was 86 percent of people have already made up their mind, they are voting for her or against her or for Trump against Trump. You say at 14 percent and it's again, these independent women make up a larger amount of the vote in the last several election cycles that might change this time around, because men are energized this time around. I think that her messaging -- if Trump can figure out a way to talk about what he's talking with guns, free zone in schools and at his hotels or wherever it might be, movie theaters. If he can talk about that it in a way that makes your point, which is that people would be safer, that's a harder argument to make than the one she is making.
GUILFOYLE: Yeah.
PERINO: I think at the moment, she is pretty persuasive.
GUILFOYLE: Yeah, but she also misstating it. I think (inaudible) Tom, because he's talking about having specific people armed in a school that would be trained and qualified, so that you would eliminate soft targets in places like movie theaters, schools, that type of thing.
SHILLUE: Yeah. And why she is, I mean, this is the argument she was talking about guns, is the same argument she uses on republicans, always. You know, that's -- so, if she's saying this is not a normal candidacy, she has to come with different arguments against Trump. This is kind of the same old stuff. It's not that impressive.
GUILFOYLE: Right.
WILLIAMS: Let me give you a different argument against Trump on this one, which is that this is a guy who supported and assault weapons ban. This is a guy who supported longer waiting periods back in the '90s. So it looks to me like you could say, hmm, I wonder if he just pandering to the gun vote in America at this moment. I think if I was a strong Second Amendment guy, I would say, is this guy is serious or he is just saying it?
SHILLUE: OK, you say that, but then when you go to Hillary, no.
WILLIAMS: Why, no? Hillary has never been for banning gun rights in America.
BOLLING: And by the way, Juan --
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: In fact, that's a problem for him that he says, oh, Hillary is gonna take away the Second Amendment right. She's never asks back then.
BOLLING: Has Hillary evolved on the crime bill?
WILLIAMS: On the crime bill, yeah.
BOLLING: Yeah. OK, so she has, too.
WILLIAMS: With the crime bill or gun rights? What are you talking about?
BOLLING: The crime bill. Remember when she's out there .
WILLIAMS: Yeah, she says --
BOLLING: . pushing the '94 crime bill --
WILLIAMS: Yes, she says now that she wouldn't use --
BOLLING: Now she said it's a bad idea.
WILLIAMS: No, she didn't say that. She said she wouldn't --
(CROSSTALK)
BOLLING: OK. So she really say Donald Trump was pandering because he -- because where he was in the '90s maybe different from where he is right now.
WILLIAMS: Yeah.
BOLLING: So he's pandering, but Hillary is not pandering by flipping where she was in the '90s on the crime bill.
WILLIAMS: No. She said the super predator (ph). She didn't say the bill was a bad bill. In fact, Black Lives matter said it was a bad bill. Bill Clinton, if you recall, came out and said hey, this bill saves black lives. What are you people, crazy?
BOLLING: She also did say that she was -- she made a mistake by pushing the crime, '94 crime bill.
PERINO: Now that she's talking about the punishment.
WILLIAMS: That's what I did.
PERINO: She's talking about the three (inaudible).
GUILFOYLE: Is that a Bill Clinton voice impersonation you did?
SHILLUE: Well, that's the crime bill.
WILLIAMS: That's right.
PERINO: I know, but it's not friendly.
(LAUGHTER)
GUILFOYLE: All right --
BOLLING: You know, my point was, yes, Donald Trump evolved or changed his tune on Second Amendment. Whereas Hillary Clinton did the exact same thing with the crime bill, but one is bad, one is --
GUILFOYLE: It's OK for Hillary to evolve and change her mind, but not Trump. It depends on who you like.
WILLIAMS: Of course not. Look, these guys are all (inaudible).
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: I don't think it's the same thing.
GUILFOYLE: OK. We are over time, because it's just chatty, chatty -- chatty show.
(LAUGHTER)
GUILFOYLE: Bernie Sanders isn't happy about all the Trump versus Clinton talk. No, no, no. Wait until you hear a word he just used to describe the two candidates, next on "The Five."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NEWT GINGRICH, FORMER SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: This country had a long, long time to get to know Hillary Clinton. She cannot build a base that works. People don't believe her. That is actually getting worse, not better. And of course, she now has real civil war. I think the democrats will be in shambles by the end of summer. I think younger, reform oriented democrats either won't vote or they will vote for Trump. And that poses a huge problem for Hillary.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAMS: Former republican House Speaker, Newt Gingrich predicting some dire straits for the Democratic Party if Hillary Clinton is the nominee. Now Clinton, of course said, she will be.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLINTON: I have 3 million more votes in the case of Senator Obama and myself, it was neck and neck in the popular votes. I have far more pledged delegates. It was much closer between me and Senator Obama, and I am going to be the nominee. And I want to spend a lot of my time, as you have seen me do, really taking on Trump because I find what he says, the kind of candidacy he's presenting to pose a danger to our country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAMS: Hmm. Is that arrogant? Senator Sanders says she's getting ahead of herself.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BERNIE SANDERS, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Secretary Clinton is jumping gun a little bit here. We understand that we have about 46 percent of the pledged delegates. In order to get 50 percent, we have to do very, very, very well in the remaining nine contests. I think we have a shot. We need a campaign, an election, coming up, which does not have two candidates or really very, very strongly dislike. I don't want to see the American people voting for the lesser of two evils.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAMS: Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness. Dana Perino, our word is meant. Did he just say that Hillary Clinton is evil?
PERINO: I don't think so. I think he was -- he's using a well-known phrase, a phrase that all, people use all the time. I don't think that he meant to say that she is evil. I think he just saying that does -- it's true. Like if you look at, you have two very unfavorable -- two candidates with very high unfavorable numbers, we don't know what's going to happen. I do think that on economic issues, if -- let's say Bernie Sanders voters are disenchanted, and they are upset, and there's news (inaudible) said that at the end of this summer, they are in disarray. I think Donald Trump could pick some of them up on economic issues. They're going to have to work really hard for that. I think on social issues, that's going to be very difficult, because I believe and we have already seen. President Obama very popular with millenials, and they are 83 million strong. They are all voting age. He's going to campaign very heavily between now and November. He's kind of sort of champing at the bit to do so. So I think that that would be a way that the democrats try to figure out a way to get those voters into her camp in November.
WILLIAMS: Kimberly, you know what an interesting thing that I saw today on Fox was Eric Trump, Trump's son .
GUILFOYLE: Yeah.
WILLIAMS: . saying, oh, my gosh, this woman can't even beat the socialist.
GUILFOYLE: Well, but that's a great point. I mean look at, this is supposed to be a layup, OK? Just like done; super delegates, et cetera. Debbie Wasserman Schultz saying, OK, let's let, you know, somebody like Bernie Sanders run. This wasn't supposed to be some hard fought primary process. This was supposed to be building, keeping her well-rested and well-funded for the fight at the end. And that's not been the case. I mean, she's still going against it. Whether or not you say you a vet, you know, ultimately, she's going to get it. OK, great. She's still dealing with him on a daily basis. And Donald Trump, all the rest of them have dropped out, right, suspended their campaign. He's in a better position, because he's already nailed it down. He's going to be the nominee, he's the presumptive and that's what's happening. So when you think about this, this was not what they wanted to expend their resources and have a fractured party like this.
WILLIAMS: Right.
GUILFOYLE: While he still has tremendous momentum, supporters and people who are not in love with Hillary. Every time he goes out and says something, it shows that she's not such a great candidate.
WILLIAMS: All right. Let me go to the numbers (inaudible). So Eric, in fact, we have about, you know, 16 or so contests remaining? I think - I don't know how many exactly.
BOLLING: States in --
WILLIAMS: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think --
PERINO: Bernie said nine.
WILLIAMS: Nine, nine? OK.
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: But he needs to win like almost 64 --
BOLLING: For Bernie?
WILLIAMS: Bernie --
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. You are supposed to give me some reaction.
BOLLING: No, no, no.
(CROSSTALK)
BOLLING: To Bernie?
(CROSSTALK)
BOLLING: Bernie isn't moving. Bernie is going to be here for a long time. We just heard today that he's going to have .
GUILFOYLE: Yup.
BOLLING: . a big say in the democratic platform at the convention. That's fantastic. And I think that's what he's trying to do. He's staying in, because he wants a bigger and bigger voice in the Democratic Party. So long time ago, when Trump started -- I saw the number, I saw the crowd. I saw what's going on. The guy can go on TV, and the ratings would come. There was something behind it. And I said, I think he's going to be the nominee. Everyone said you are crazy. It was a hunch. It was a feeling, a swell, an organic swell. He became the nominee. I was like, you know, I'm not sure he can beat Hillary, because it all what's going on with the democrats.
WILLIAMS: Yeah.
BOLLING: The more I see her and what's going on right now, I think he's -- I honestly think Donald Trump is going to beat Hillary, given your numbers and given --
WILLIAMS: But wait a second.
(CROSSTALK)
BOLLING: But let me just finish.
WILLIAMS: What about the Democratic Party?
BOLLING: Look at her.
WILLIAMS: Yeah.
BOLLING: Look at her. Look at -- the two of them as candidates right now.
WILLIAMS: Who?
BOLLING: She -- Hillary.
(CROSSTALK)
BOLLING: She looks worried. She looks insecure. She looks like she's explaining herself. Hold on. Hold on. She's no Bill Clinton, right?
WILLIAMS: Yeah.
BOLLING: So she's no George W. Bush. She's no -- Barack Obama.
GUILFOYLE: Barack Obama.
BOLLING: She doesn't have that. And I think Donald Trump has those likable things that the other candidates, whether they are republican or democrats --
WILLIAMS: Wait a second.
BOLLING: Have that people --
WILLIAMS: Are you?
BOLLING: The voters.
WILLIAMS: Is this about you trying to convince you or you trying to convince me?
BOLLING: No, no. I -- look, from the beginning, I thought he was going to be the nominee. I wasn't sure --
WILLIAMS: Right, but I mean --
BOLLING: He could beat Hillary.
WILLIAMS: But Eric --
BOLLING: Now, I'm convinced again.
WILLIAMS: Are you kidding that -- they're both not very likeable.
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: They're just -- their unfavorable numbers are --
BOLLING: I don't care about --
(CROSSTALK)
BOLLING: I don't care about favorability polls. Look at the two of them. Look at them.
SHILLUE: She's so unlikable.
BOLLING: Yeah.
SHILLUE: That's why Bernie is so lovable. Everyone said, oh, he's so likable. The only reason is, because he's next to Hillary Clinton. That uncle act would get --
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: But remember she said -- OK, so she said this weekend, Tom, Bernie is so likable because nobody has run negative ads against him.
SHILLUE: Well -- I mean, that may be true, but --
PERINO: So, why doesn't she?
WILLIAMS: Well, Kimberly?
GUILFOYLE: Yeah, well, listen. This is what I think she needs to do. She needs to sell herself and she needs to stop hiding in a safe little cocoon and present herself as a strong, viable alternative. Speak to the women out there that are independents, like Dana is talking about, and try and get votes. The one thing you can see like Donald Trump makes himself accessible, available, all the time. If you ask, he comes on, he does it. She needs to come on, do a debate. For example like .
WILLIAMS: Yeah.
GUILFOYLE: . Fox News debate --
WILLIAMS: Yes.
GUILFOYLE: Come on .
WILLIAMS: Come on.
GUILFOYLE: . sell yourself and so --
WILLIAMS: She got a point here.
GUILFOYLE: And tell. Convince the American people why you should be the next commander-in-chief.
WILLIAMS: I got --
GUILFOYLE: It's too very important.
WILLIAMS: Huh?
GUILFOYLE: She should.
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: I think so, too. I think it would be big numbers and get her a big audience, a big platform. I just think it's a winner for her. And clearly, the audience would love it. As I said the other day, this is, you know, pay per view territory. Some big breaking news developments in the war against terrorism; who the U.S. forces took out over the weekend. And more coming up next on "The Five."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PERINO: Last night on "60 Minutes," President Obama's senior adviser -- advisor, excuse me, Valerie Jarrett gave a rosy assessment of the administrations accomplishments. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VALERIE JARRETT, SENIOR ADVISOR TO PRESIDENT OBAMA: Just look at what's happened in the last seven years, our unemployment rate going from 10 percent down to 5, our automobile industry back ending to wars.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PERINO: But our wars haven't ended. The United States remains in combat in Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria. Today, our troops are back and forces in Iraq to retake Fallujah from ISIS. And just this weekend, they took out the Taliban leader in a drone strike in Pakistan. Earlier this month, President Obama quietly marked a major milestone. He's now been at war longer than any other American president. Kimberly --
GUILFOYLE: Yeah.
PERINO: Valerie Jarrett's interview gave -- left the impression that their work is done except ISIS in 2014 carried out 90 attacks in 21 countries outside of Iraq and Syria, and killed 14 -- 13 -- about 1400 people and injured 2,000 more. So --
GUILFOYLE: Because --
PERINO: The impression --
GUILFOYLE: Yeah, ISIS isn't exactly giving back their varsity jersey, if you get my point. They're like, yeah, we still have them. They are like, right now still, you know, undefeated. That's how we're trying to take back Fallujah and other places. So listen, I mean, she makes a nice spokesperson on behalf of the president. I will give the president, you know, credit for taking out this head of the Taliban. I'll give him credit for that. Because when it comes down to it, he'll, you know, authorize the kill. I'll give him credit for that.
But with ISIS, I'm still, you know, very disappointed in terms of the fact that they've been able to progress this far. And she's not going to go on "60 Minutes" and say -- you know, give them a "C-plus" average. She's going to go on and say, "We deserve an 'A,' and our work is done here."
PERINO: Absolutely. Great spokesperson for the president.
But Juan, here's another point. One of the things that they talk about as a very successful mission for them, is they targeted and took out probably the largest al Qaeda training camp found in the 14-year Afghan war just last year. The problem is: there were no al Qaeda training camps in Afghanistan when they took over in 2009. So the war efforts -- I mean, the generational war against radical Islam does continue, even if they want to say they've put an end to them.
WILLIAMS: Yes, well, I don't think there's any question...
PERINO: I think what she means, large combat forces. She said that's what he's trying...
WILLIAMS: I think -- OK, so let's -- let's make the best possible case for what she was saying, which is that, remember, now I think we have 4,000 plus troops in Iraq. We have about 10,000 in Afghanistan.
When the president came in, he inherited 200,000 Americans on the ground in those countries. So it's a huge shift from 200,000 down to about 15,000 today.
But to your point, there's no getting away from the idea that the war continues and that we -- in fact, I mean, the drone strike over the weekend, the president's decision to send additional forces in to get involved with the Syrian effort now. It's hard to say that this president, who promised to extract America from war, has done that. To the contrary, you'd have to say it looks like we're just stuck in the maul, this terrible situation in the Middle East forever and ever.
PERINO: Let me ask you, Eric, about just looking forward a little bit. Because one of the things we do know is that terrorists like to strike in moments of instability. We have a moment of instability coming up, in a transition from one president to the next, whoever it might be.
And you have, as Mark Thiessen was describing in a Washington Post column today, al Qaeda and ISIS now fighting for the hearts and minds of the jihadis. And what's the best way for them to win that? It would a catastrophic strike against the United States. So if you're the president's transition team, that's something that you have to be thinking about.
BOLLING: That's so interesting that you bring that up. I remember when President Obama was in the transition into the -- into the White House. And if you remember, Peter Baker wrote a piece in the New York Times magazine, really extensive...
PERINO: I do?
BOLLING: ... about the transition. That President Obama wanted to put the past aside, all the infrastructure and all the intel work that had been done under the Bush administration, and start fresh with a brand-new intel department. And they realized at the inauguration that there was credible threats against the president's life. At that moment, he said, "You know what? Let's hold off for a while. Let's not pull these -- pull this infrastructure." And he never did.
He was smart about it, to his credit, as Kimberly points out, to leave some of the things intact, which ended up leading to the bin Laden kill, which he pulled the trigger based on all the intel that happened prior to that.
Can I just very quickly point? So in other words, during that transition period, hopefully, the incoming president is smart enough to realize, "Let's keep things in place or step them up," if they have to.
Very quickly, this -- what I would call an apology tour, the president hitting Hiroshima and Vietnam, as part of a legacy.
PERINO: Yes.
BOLLING: I mean, is this all because he wants...
PERINO: Hopefully, we can do a whole block on that.
WILLIAMS: Yes. Let's talk about that.
BOLLING: The Nobel Peace -- when?
WILLIAMS: We can't do it?
PERINO: We've got 30 seconds left. Tom hasn't spoken. But it is a good point.
SHILLUE: I want to ask you a question, Dana. I mean, we...
PERINO: Oh, really?
SHILLUE: Well...
PERINO: Did you ask permission?
GUILFOYLE: Very bold and fresh of you.
SHILLUE: Dana, look, in the Bush administration, they talked about Bush's brain, and you had Rove and you had Cheney. And, "Oh, Bush's brain."
PERINO: Oh, and you had (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
SHILLUE: Yes, but the idea was that George Bush was just a puppet, and they were just telling him what to do. When you look at this Valerie Jarrett interview...
PERINO: Did it explain everything?
SHILLUE: ... is there any question who Obama's brain is, who's running that White House? It's Valerie Jarrett.
PERINO: I always...
GUILFOYLE: That's who writes Juan cards.
SHILLUE: Yes.
PERINO: I always believe...
GUILFOYLE: She signs them.
PERINO: Here's what I think.
GUILFOYLE: V.J.
PERINO: Every president runs their own White House.
GUILFOYLE: V. Jarrett.
PERINO: Nobody runs the White House except for the president. Everything comes from the top.
SHILLUE: So...
PERINO: So you're wrong. But a great try.
But she -- no doubt she's been a good supporter and friend of the family.
We've got to go, because as Kimberly said, it's a chatty show. Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders drinking and dancing the night away after running into each other at a "Saturday Night Live" bar this weekend. That interesting encounter and more coming up next in "The Fastest Seven."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BOLLING: Welcome back. Time for...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRAPHIC: Fastest 7
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BOLLING: ... "The Fastest Seven Minutes on Television." Three buzzy stories, seven bustling minutes, one blithe host.
First up...
GUILFOYLE: Oh, jeez.
BOLLING: ... "Saturday Night Live" nailed the Democrat race for president, again. Check out Kate McKinnon's awesome Hillary and Larry David, who practically is Bernie Sanders.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LARRY DAVID, COMEDIAN (AS BERNIE SANDERS): Remember when I told everyone to stop talking about your damn e-mails? What a schmuck.
KATE MCKINNON, CAST MEMBER, NBC'S "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE" (AS HILLARY CLINTON): I know!
DAVID: I know, I know. I'm so stupid.
MCKINNON: I don't really like people. I only talk to them because I want to be the president so bad. Please don't tell, don't tell.
DAVID: I think they know.
MCKINNON: Will you dance with me? I'll give you three super delegates.
DAVID: Let's dance. I'll lead.
MCKINNON: Never.
(MCKINNON DANCES DAVID INTO AN ELEVATOR AND PUSHES THE BUTTON)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BOLLING: All right, K.G., nailed it.
GUILFOYLE: Oh, my goodness. A one way to, you know, get rid of him, poor thing.
Buy the one-way ticket to Venezuela, baby. You won this prize, Bernie.
I think it's funny. It's cute, and it's also -- the best reason why it's so funny is because there's truth.
BOLLING: So much truth into it.
GUILFOYLE: So much.
BOLLING: "I'll give you three super delegates if you dance with me."
WILLIAMS: He'd need more than three. But boy, I just -- hats off to Larry David. I always liked Larry David. I think he was great on "Curb Your Enthusiasm." But man, he has become Bernie Sanders. He is worth watching. I don't think he's a member of the crew, right?
BOLLING: No, no, no.
WILLIAMS: But he has defined -- so they're at the end of their season, and he has defined their season.
GUILFOYLE: You know what he is? Recession proof. He's got a job. He's got a job for life.
BOLLING: If Hillary is just that likable.
PERINO: As Kate McKinnon?
BOLLING: As Kate McKinnon.
PERINO: Yes, that's true. I think -- what I like -- here's what I want to know. When Bernie Sanders writes his book about this election and makes money, finally, on his writing, I want to know if he flubbed that line about "your damn e-mails." I think he didn't mean to say it that way. I think it was meant to say that people are tired of it; you should actually have to deal with it. Instead, he absolved her of the problem.
BOLLING: Yes. What are your thoughts on this?
GUILFOYLE: That kind of spoke to that right there.
BOLLING: They are so real, they're hilarious.
SHILLUE: Well, it is hilarious. I mean, let's face it, Larry David is not really doing a great impression; he's just doing himself. So -- but he's fine. It's funny.
She's amazing. She even moves like Hillary Clinton. It's a hilarious sketch. The great thing is it's May, and they're making fun of two Democrats on "Saturday Night Live." Who would have thought that would happen? I mean, given -- look, it's amazing.
BOLLING: It's going to be great when it's Hillary and Trump.
All right. We'll move on to this one. My pal, Mark Cuban, was asked by the "never Trump" crew if he'd run for president as a third-party candidate. Mark wisely rejected that idea. But since Mark is so -- also widely respected, he might make a perfect V.P. pick. He was asked by Chuck Todd if he'd be willing to join Hillary's ticket, and then Donald's ticket. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK CUBAN, ENTREPRENEUR: Absolutely. But the key would be -- she'd have to go more to center. I think -- you know, I like the fact that Senator Clinton has thought-out proposals, but I think Senator Sanders has dragged her too a little bit too far to the left.
CHUCK TODD, MODERATOR, NBC'S "MEET THE PRESS": What about Donald Trump?
CUBAN: If he asked me, I'd be like, "OK, Donald, that's great; let's talk about it. But we're both going to have to dig in and really look and understand the issues so we can -- so we can come up with solutions."
TODD: What would it take to convince you to run in a 2020 or 2024?
CUBAN: It's too early to tell. I mean, depending on what happened with, you know, whoever is elected, depending on what happens with the economy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BOLLING: So I chatted with Mark prior to the show. Friend of mine. He said he would join either ticket with the right -- with the right deal going back and forth. In other words, both of them would be helped by Mark Cuban.
WILLIAMS: You think so?
BOLLING: Yes.
WILLIAMS: Well, Hillary Clinton said she likes him because he's a businessman. But I can take it as...
BOLLING: Think about his technology expertise.
WILLIAMS: For vice president?
BOLLING: Yes, I think the next -- 848.
WILLIAMS: Why would -- why would Trump want him?
BOLLING: Well, Donald Trump could use some help in that respect, too. I think Donald doesn't -- I don't even think...
WILLIAMS: He's a businessman. Donald says he's the businessman. This guy is the businessman.
BOLLING: I like him. You like him?
PERINO: Well, I don't know him. I know that you do. I appreciate his outsider status. And he seems like a patriotic guy to me. And there's a whole crowd, you know, the no labels crowd, that's the kind of person that they're looking for, someone who doesn't care what party they are; they just want to do good work.
BOLLING: What do you think of this one?
SHILLUE: I -- look, he's your friend, I don't want to criticize, but I think you're a little foggy in the head, Eric. No, he would not make a good vice president.
What -- why, because he's unpredictable? Because he's on a reality show? I mean, he has only the worst traits of Donald Trump, none of the good ones.
BOLLING: How about he started a company, sold it for $1 billion, and then bought a basketball team because he loves basketball, turned that into a multibillion dollar organization?
GUILFOYLE: He's a winner, for sure. Also, quite handsome, would make an excellent husband. Michelle, our hairdresser, is crazy for him.
BOLLING: All right. Let's do this very quickly.
GUILFOYLE: No. 1 crush.
BOLLING: As you're well aware, I'm a big fan of awards shows. Last night Billboard's 2016 Awards, the show as very awesome. Great performances by Rihanna, Lukas Graham and a good duet with Blake Shelton and Gwen Stefani.
Then came the much-anticipated Prince tribute by Madonna. It was a little pitchy and generally not good. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(MADONNA SINGING "NOTHING COMPARES 2 U" AND "PURPLE RAIN")
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BOLLING: Your thoughts?
PERINO: I mean, I'm not a critic of music. I feel bad for her in a way, because critics are always going to be very critical. And it's hard to do a tribute for somebody that was as great as Prince. A lot of pressure.
BOLLING: That's a good point.
SHILLUE: So give her credit. I mean, Madonna stepped up to the plate. That's a hard gig. That would be like, you know...
GUILFOYLE: Great chair, great outfit.
SHILLUE: I mean, that would be like me doing George Carlin routine or something in front of people. I wouldn't do it.
BOLLING: You kind of nailed it. Stevie Wonder...
GUILFOYLE: Stevie Wonder sounded fantastic, and he sounded on pitch. And I don't know. I think it's very hard, because she's a female artist. Obviously, very talented, but that's not really, like, her sweet spot, if you get what I'm saying.
BOLLING: What do you say? You're a Prince fan.
WILLIAMS: I didn't -- I didn't think it was that great. But you know what? I like the idea that she was doing it. I didn't have any trouble with it, except, you know, you could say her voice seemed to not be there.
Poor Stevie Wonder, how did he get involved with this?
GUILFOYLE: Why you always got to do that, right?
BOLLING: Next up, loud, liberal Chris Matthews finally acknowledges what FOX viewers knew all along, for they've known it for years. The mainstream media's views are completely out of touch with most Americans. His admission up ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SHILLUE: Some sort of lightbulb appears to have gone off at MSNBC. While waiting for Donald Trump to address the NRA on Friday, Brian Williams and Chris Matthews finally realized that they and others in the mainstream media don't share the same values as the majority of Americans.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRIAN WILLIAMS, NBC NEWS: Why has there been this split between members of the news media, who so often are mystified to learn of a gun culture in -- in America outside of New York, Washington and L.A.?
CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC ANCHOR: We always assume in the big cities there's sort of a cosmopolitan attitude that we all share. There is sort of a lingua franca, if you will, a language that is spoken in the media which is pro-choice. It's anti-gun rights. It's the usual sort of sophistication we're used to. But it's not representative of the country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SHILLUE: "Lingua franca." He's using the top vocabulary words. Right, Kimberly...
GUILFOYLE: I like it.
SHILLUE: ... news flash, the media is liberal. Did you know
GUILFOYLE: No, but I'm loving the truth. That he actually -- he's the one that came up with the tingling feeling up his leg. I think someone, like, hit him with, like, the tranq gun in the neck, right? Because he's, like, speaking the truth, saying, yes, there's liberal bias. Yes, the mainstream media is all in, and yet, they see things very differently than the rest of the American public, which would also explain all this groundswell support for Donald Trump where, you know, every day Americans identify with him. And they're choosing him over, say, jumping in on the political machine.
SHILLUE: Yes. Juan, you know that in the halls of -- you know, you had a National Public Radio. All the public -- all the public media. Do you know any Republicans over there? Do they admit it? Are they like Matthews? Do they admit it over there how liberal they are?
WILLIAMS: Well, but it's clear. All right. It's like me on this show.
GUILFOYLE: What do you mean by that, Juan?
WILLIAMS: You know, good looking. So...
PERINO: Very nice.
WILLIAMS: I think -- you know what is interesting to me is that they are so removed from the idea that there are smart people who think differently. And I have always thought, you know, when I was growing up, I always thought it was the right that was sort of intolerant, and not accepting and not open to other ideas. But in fact, it's often the left that gets so defensive, and angry and vicious when anybody disagrees with them.
SHILLUE: Yes, well, I mean, I think Chris Matthews, did it slip out? Or I think he's -- I think he is a bit of a truth teller.
PERINO: Remember, he was in the Carter White House. And so, like, he's seen it, and he lives in Washington, D.C. And your social and your work circle combine when you're in the media and politics in Washington, D.C. And that's usually left-leaning and liberal. So I think he was just being honest about the way it is.
SHILLUE: Yes. I mean, it's a bubble. Isn't this what -- Eric, isn't this what Ted Cruz was talking about? New York values, right? Isn't that what he was trying to say?
BOLLING: I'm not sure. I saw that as two pompous elite asses in the media. Two of them going...
GUILFOYLE: Can you say that? Bad.
BOLLING: Let me...
PERINO: Imagine what they say about us.
BOLLING: Here's, as Williams laughs and chuckles, Matthews says, "Oh, the sophistication we are used to. But it's not representative of the country."
Basically saying they're smarter than the rest of the country, ha, ha, ha. We know what's going on. But those fools in the rest of the country don't get it, because they're not as smart as us. Well, guess what, my friend? Check the ratings and look at the score board. It's all you've got to do.
SHILLUE: Admitting his flaws, I think it's good. I think it's a good start.
OK. "One More Thing" is up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GUILFOYLE: It's time now for "One More Thing" -- Juan.
WILLIAMS: Well, we had a heart-inspiring event in Colorado Springs over the weekend, the Defenders of Freedom Recognition Ride. Hundreds of bikers parading through the streets to raise awareness of homeless veterans across America.
You know, too many people overlook the fact that so many of our homeless once served this great country and that we still owe them not only a debt of gratitude, but real help, a helping hand. Over the last nine years, the Defenders have raised $55,000 to help homeless vets.
PERINO: Wow.
WILLIAMS: What a great cause. My hat's off to you guys.
GUILFOYLE: Very nice.
WILLIAMS: Keep riding. Keep rolling.
GUILFOYLE: It's important, too, to see that visual image. It reminds you so you do not forget.
OK, and on that, also, a special occasion. This is really a heartwarming story. I hope you enjoy it. Eighty-nine-year-old Holocaust survivor Hermina Hirsch sang the national anthem this weekend in Detroit before a baseball game between the Detroit Tigers and the Tampa Bay Raiders. It was always her dream to sing the national anthem. She's an incredible Holocaust survivor. She was taken when she was 17 years old.
PERINO: Wow.
GUILFOYLE: Her family was split up and then sent to concentration camps. She was liberated in January of 1945. And she's been a fan, a big fan of the Detroit Tigers since she moved to the area more than 60 years ago and has been singing the anthem for years during the Holocaust survivor meetings in the Detroit area. Hermina, well done, indeed.
OK. Dana.
PERINO: So brave to stand up in front of that crowd. Thank you so much. That was a great one.
So you know one of the things that could be crushing as a kid? If you're 4 years old, and you're excited, because you get to go to Disney World with your family, but you get sick and you don't get to go. That happened to this young woman, Chelsea Herline. Twenty-two years later, she -- her dad found the ticket. It was still in pretty good condition in her basement. And she decided to give it a shot. She went to Disney World, and she said, "Hi, I have a really old ticket. Can it be honored?" And you know what? They did. They let her in, and she got to spend the entire day at Disney, which I think is really...
SHILLUE: Wow. All right, Disney.
PERINO: They did have to call, like, 20 people to get the approval.
GUILFOYLE: I thought it was planned.
PERINO: No.
GUILFOYLE: It was spontaneous.
PERINO: Yes.
GUILFOYLE: And then they did it. You know what? This why it's the happiest place on earth. Love it. And it's got those little Mickey ears, Minnie ears.
OK, go.
BOLLING: All right. This one probably won't make you happy. This one will probably tick you off a little bit. You know the everyone-gets-a- trophy crowd?
PERINO: Yes.
BOLLING: Well, North Carolina went one step further. Wake County school board just voted unanimously -- unanimously -- to stop recognizing valedictorian and others like that, the accomplishments, the achievements. The president said it's, quote, "unhealthy competition."
PERINO: Wow. Wow.
BOLLING: So therefore, I can honestly say we have now officially become a nation of wussies.
GUILFOYLE: I mean, it's really dangerous these days...
PERINO: I would love to ask him what he means by that, going on?
SHILLUE: They're going to know anyway. They know who's the smart ones.
BOLLING: Yes.
GUILFOYLE: Thomas, you're up.
SHILLUE: OK, look, I would not go fishing in a kayak, but this guy did. It's off the coast of Texas. Take a look at this guy. He caught a shark.
PERINO: Oh, boy.
SHILLUE: If you catch a shark and you want to let him go, don't take him in the boat first. So he took him in. Now, take a look here. He kind of opens up -- he opens up his legs. What is he doing?
GUILFOYLE: There goes the family jewels. Right?
SHILLUE: He finally -- he let the shark go. Everyone -- everyone lives and he...
PERINO: How did he get him out?
GUILFOYLE: Bolling likes that. It's like "Sharknado."
SHILLUE: It kind of flopped out, and then he cut the line.
GUILFOYLE: OK. Well, that was exciting. Fish and game.
All right. Set your DVRs so you never miss an episode of "The Five." That's it for us. "Special Report" is next.
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