US Navy SEAL a victim of failed US strategy against ISIS?

Servicemember killed during intense Iraq firefight


This is a rush transcript from "The Five," May 3, 2016. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

KIMBERLY GUILFOYLE, CO-HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Kimberly Guilfoyle along with Juan Williams, Eric Bolling, Melissa Francis and Greg Gutfeld. It's 5 o'clock in New York City and this is "The Five."

Get your election groove, because we're about an hour away from the first polls closing in Indiana where the crucial primary battle is under way. Tonight could have a big impact on how the race moves forward, and as Americans exercise their rights to vote today, we should not forget the more than 150,000 U.S. military personnel currently stationed overseas, including about 35,000 in the Middle East. These brave men and women are putting their lives on the line in harm's way to protect our rights here at home. This morning, U.S. defense officials confirm a Navy SEAL was shot and killed by ISIS terrorists near Irbil, Iraq. The SEAL was in the region serving as an advisor to Kurdish forces. It's the third American soldier killed in the battle against ISIS since October. White House Press Secretary Josh Earnest addressed the development earlier.


JOSH EARNEST, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Today's incident is a vivid reminder of the risks that our service members are taking. Three of them now have made the ultimate sacrifice for our country, but the president has been clear, time and time again, exactly what their mission is. That mission is to support Iraqi forces on the ground, who are taking the fight to ISIL on the frontlines. Iraqi forces must fight for their own country. United States forces cannot be a substitute for those Iraqi forces.


GUILFOYLE: Retired four-star General Jack Keane explains why he believes we are facing the threat of ISIS.


GENERAL JACK KEANE, FORMER U.S. ARMY VICE CHIEF OF STAFF: By 2008 when the Obama administration was elected, President Bush had handed the Obama administration a victory. When the administration came in, in early 2009, they began to disengage politically from Iraq and not shape the political system, which was in desperate need of help, and then 2011, we pulled out all the troops. And I can -- I can tell you that our leaders were unbelievably frustrated by that, because there was no reason to abandon Iraq. The Obama administration has failed to make the peace work, that's why we've got ISIS.


GUILFOYLE: All right, so this is pointing directly to the failures of the current administration. And we see on this primary, Election Day, a lot to be focused on in terms of what kind of choice people want to make for a commander-in-chief going forward, especially with the unrest and fatal U.S. casualty on the ground in Iraq.

ERIC BOLLING, CO-HOST: Yeah, interesting that you're bringing in the presidential election, the primaries on this topic, because there are some different varying views on whether or not we should be even in Iraq right now. I think Donald Trump says we shouldn't be in there, he said he was against it; others are saying we should go. Ted Cruz said we should carpet bomb Syria, et cetera. The interesting -- the sad part is that Josh Earnest said, the White House mission is to support and train, yet this -- this hero, this SEAL died in action in combat, right? So there's 4,000 troops left in Iraq. It's either you're going to be in Iraq or you're not going to be in Iraq; 4,000 isn't enough. So therefore, you're putting 4,000 at risk. So if you're for a strategy that says, solidify, secure Iraq, then put enough people in there so that these people aren't dying. If you're for a strategy of pulling out, then get the heck out and stop putting more in. I think we're sending 200 or so more recently, we said we're going to do that. They're all gonna be at risk. I have a better idea, President Obama should just wake up, do what he's supposed to do, stop fighting this war with his Blackberry, go to Congress and say, this is what I want to do, Congress, if you're on board, sign on the dotted line and join me in this fight. Or they can say, here's what we want to do President Obama, and push back on it and say, have an alternate strategy and the American people can get involve, instead of the president doing this unilaterally.


GUILFOYLE: Especially since the funding arm as well, that would be following the proper process and separation of powers.

JUAN WILLIAMS, CO-HOST: Right. And I think the president has done that Eric, and in fact, what we've seen is the Congress is reluctant to make that decision. I think everybody is sort of gun-shy after having given President Bush authority to go to war in Iraq and everybody laments and concern republican and democrat. Republicans in congress now think you have to give the commander-in-chief sort of unlimited rights to go fight and to go take out ISIS. As you just describe the democrats are worried if you give the commander-in-chief total leeway, then -- and the next president might really take us back into full combat, and they don't want to see that.


WILLIAMS: So I think Congress is the one that's kind of stuck at the moment.

BOLLING: Well, but he's doing this on his own. He's developing his war strategy on his own. And frankly, we've heard that he doesn't even consult these generals.

WILLIAMS: Oh no, that's not --

BOLLING: He doesn't even listen to his generals who may have a different idea. My guess is that they would be, get back in there and fix it.

GUILFOYLE: Melissa, your comment?

MELISSA FRANCIS, GUEST CO-HOST: I mean, I don't think that he actually wants to go in there and fight. I think that's why we're seeing so few people go over there. But you look at one of the propaganda videos that cropped up in the wake of all this, an ISIS fighter says, "I am jealous of you," to a suicide bomber, "I'm jealous of you because you are going to heaven." I mean, at the risk of sounding like Jesse Watters, I mean it sounds -- I don't know why the president isn't more aggressive, because everybody is working towards the same purpose. They want to die. We need to wipe them out, so they don't come attack us here. I mean, the whole thing is just gotten so insane.

GUILFOYLE: Well, you bring up a good point. And Greg, you know, the one of the criticisms has been about the failed foreign policy and how we've handled it. And Melissa said there was a failure to put in a proper status of forces agreement to insure stability, because ultimately that failure has led to the rise of ISIS and the quest for a caliphate. That's all stemmed from this. We had tremendous gains, whether getting in or not getting in Iraq, we did. We committed treasure and resource there on American lives. We accomplished a great deal, only to see it, you know, slip away and ISIS rise up.

GREG GUTFELD, CO-HOST: Well, I mean, if you do, if you do not like the war that we, as American -- as a nation won, it is not up to you to lose it. Even if you disagreed with the premise of it, the fact that the war is won, the war is won. It's not up to you to say, well, I never liked it from the start, so I'm pulling out. But we have to understand when we -- we're talking about a country that's being gun-shy, we're short-changing, actually, the military. The military knows why they exist. A consequence of vanquishing evil is that good people will die and sometimes the greatest people will die, but it's a price that a happy warrior pays. A buddy of mine who is a Green Beret, Terry Schappert said to me, "Do not feel bad asking us to do our job. We didn't enlist in order to do drills, and when you are faced with, perhaps, the worst evil that we've ever seen, that makes your mission matter most." So I think the one thing that we have to do is we always have to keep our response in context, the more that we freak out, the more it enamors ISIS and makes them feel that they are doing something. The fact is, whenever something like this happens and we lose a brave American, we have to return to resiliency, that for every one that we lose, they lose a thousand. And that's just the way you have to look at it. And people will say, well that's -- you're a chicken hawk, but it is a government agency. It is a government agency filled with people who want to go and destroy evil, and we have to let them do it.

GUILFOYLE: Right. Exactly, because we don't have, you know, a draft that's being composed, everybody's got to go, no matter what. These are people who signed up to believe in this country, a true patriot. But at the same Greg, yes, we have to have things in place like proper status of force agreement when we do win a war.

GUTFELD: Give them everything.

GUILFOYLE: And also give them everything, as in modify tremendously the rules of engagement that under this administration has hampered all the men and women serving over there. If you ask anybody like your Green Beret friends, or any of the SEALS, or Deltas, or Special Forces guys over there, that is a huge problem.


GUTFELD: And ISIS -- if it's not ISIS, then what is it? What would you fight? I mean its Americans.


GUTFELD: Well, this is truly one of the most evil phenomenons in history.

BOLLING: Not a question of fighting ISIS.

GUILFOYLE: And it's genocide.

BOLLING: . but the method at which you do fight ISIS. And the method -- how do you take ISIS out? Or you really want to eradicate ISIS? Go for it, do the bombing raids, do what we did in the gulf war. We didn't, we didn't send five or seven or 10 sorties a day, we sent thousands a day. Literally, a thousand a day --

WILLIAMS: But Eric --

BOLLING: And we --


BOLLING: We pounded them and we beat them into submission. But if you're gonna go for it.

WILLIAMS: Eric, that's a different context.

BOLLING: . go for it.

WILLIAMS: That's a different context.

BOLLING: Oh why it is different, Juan?

WILLIAMS: We are not -- it's totally different.

BOLLING: Why it is different?


BOLLING: You don't have to be different, though. It doesn't have to be.

WILLIAMS: Because I think it's greatly different. I think at this point, we do not have the political will to assert all those troops back into warfare --

BOLLING: So do it by air.

WILLIAMS: And what we --

BOLLING: So it by air.

WILLIAMS: We are bombing people.


GUTFELD: Inevitably, you've got to be on the ground.

WILLIAMS: Inevitably --

GUTFELD: So that could be --

WILLIAMS: OK. That's well, so --



GUILFOYLE: They make the right strikes.

BOLLING: Worried about collateral damage.

WILLIAMS: But look --

BOLLING: Worried about rules of engagement.


WILLIAMS: But wait --

BOLLING: There are some of those --

WILLIAMS: Let's talk for a second of rules for engagement.


WILLIAMS: But the people that we are sending now, they are looser restrictions on them, to speak to your point Kimberly. They can now go into the forward front of the battle, that's how this young was killed, this Navy SEAL. Previously, they have to stay back at the headquarters --

GUILFOYLE: But that's not true.

WILLIAMS: The (inaudible) headquarters.

GUILFOYLE: No, no, no.

FRANCIS: Will anyone argue the way we're doing and now it's working?

GUILFOYLE: That's over simplifying it. It's not true. That's how we --

WILLIAMS: Well, yes.


WILLIAMS: The idea is to advise and help these, the Iraqi troops.

GUILFOYLE: We were helping the Kurds.

WILLIAMS: . do their job for their own country.

GUILFOYLE: He was helping the Kurds and that's why he was there. But the problem is great evil does not cower in the face of subtle resistance. Get that. Next, Campaign Carl is here in our studio. So stay tuned for his inside Intel on the GOP race on this primary day. And before we go tonight, don't miss a special extra live hour on "The Five," the midnight edition, Greg, wake up. We'll break down the results of the battle for Indiana -- back in a moment.


WILLIAMS: Welcome back to "The Five" on this primary day in Indiana, 57 GOP delegates are on the line in this winner take all battle. Ted Cruz has a lot at stake here and he's campaigning very hard. The Hoosier state could be his last chance to stop Donald Trump from clinching the republican nomination before the convention. Both rivals realized how important it is to score a victory tonight.


DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: People of Indiana, it's an important week, because you can absolutely -- you know, if we win, it's over. And then I can focus --


TRUMP: Then I don't have to worry about lyin' Ted Cruz, that I don't care if he endorses me or does -- I couldn't care less. But I don't have to worry about lyin' Ted Cruz. We don't have to worry about Kasich.

TED CRUZ, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We're going all the way. The entire country is depending on us. The entire country is looking to do right. It is only Indiana that can pull us back. It is only the good sense and good judgment of Indiana that can pull us back. We're staring at the abyss. And I have incredible faith --



WILLIAMS: Joining us now to forecast how the race is going to shake out is Campaign Carl Cameron, one of our great political reporters. He's on the set here in New York City, Carl, welcome.


WILLIAMS: So Carl, I looked at a poll, it said 9 out of 10 republican voters think Donald Trump is going to be the nominee. And I see that Donald Trump is saying these other two guys, Cruz and Kasich, hanging on by their fingernails. What do you say?

CAMERON: Well, because -- just because 9 out of 10 think that Donald Trump is going to be the nominee, it doesn't necessarily mean that all nine of them actually want him to be the nominee. They're just forecasting what the polls are doing and what his momentum is bringing us to. Ted Cruz's camp is pretty bummed out today. They acknowledge it could be a pretty rough night. And the Trump people are psyched] to they're looking forward to West Virginia where they're talking about a poll that has him up 30 points. They had meetings today to talk about the build-out for the general election. They'll be meetings tomorrow to do that sort of stuff. They see that this is an opportunity now to really put sort of a nail in it, clinch the nomination in California on June 7th, with plenty of room to spare. And if he gets in the high single digits in terms of a win tonight, if Trump pulls off a win, this is a state that Ted Cruz said was a must-win a month ago and we -- he was leading by 20 points. And so, if he does pull it off -- let say double digit, single digits or double digits, he can pretty much sweep.

WILLIAMS: Oh yeah, it's winner take all for the most part -- and Melissa?

FRANCIS: So what is the deal with Ted Cruz? Because it feels like the harder he struggles, it's like he's in quicksand, the more he sinks. He's tried so many moves this week, you know, I mean he tried teaming up with Kasich.


FRANCIS: He brought out Carly Fiorina. What happened? Because it just sort of fell apart.

CAMERON: Well, he left it all there on the table when he -- everything but the kitchen sink was thrown at Trump's head. And part of it, I mean the Gallup has a poll that shows the graphic numbers of all of this. And the numbers go like this --


CAMERON: Trump's favorability's are going up and Cruz's are going down. And part of it is that Cruz has now come to the place where every republican candidate who has dropped out went before they did so. Bobby Jindal went for Donald Trump's throat and attacked his integrity and his personality very aggressively and he bailed. Lindsey Graham followed that same course. Jeb Bush, after the New Hampshire primary let it all hang out, taking on Trump before he ultimately dropped out. Today Ted Cruz acknowledged, but let me tell you what I've not done at all during this campaign, let me tell how I really feel about Ted Cruz, and he really went for it in ways that we have not heard him say before. And it has all the earmarks of laying it on the record, because, perhaps he won't be able to take it all the way to the convention. He's let some people know, but he's not entirely sure he wants to continue --

WILLIAMS: Wait a second, wait a second. You're saying this is the evil comment you're talking about?


WILLIAMS: Yeah, I just want --

CAMERON: I called him pathological.

WILLIAMS: I just wanted that the viewers to know --

CAMERON: Called it pathological, yeah.

WILLIAMS: What are you talking about?

BOLLING: Carl, I ask you.


BOLLING: Does it have anything to do with -- behind the scenes we're hearing that the big donors may be pulling out if he doesn't -- if Cruz doesn't pull out a win in Indiana tonight, the donors may cut back on the money. And number two, I think this is really important, that maybe staff has been told they may be let go if Cruz doesn't win Indiana.

CAMERON: Well, there won't be a lot of point in having a great deal of national staff around for the few states that are left. It's only nine after tonight and he's already agreed to step aside in New Mexico and Oregon. So Kasich can help --

BOLLING: All right.

CAMERON: So now he's down to seven. And to get all the way to California, knowing that Trump is likely to get 1237 before the convention, it would be that sort of exercise in futility, because Trump would win the nomination on the first ballot, making a contested convention impossible for Cruz and Kasich to even create. So --

WILLIAMS: But let me just say quickly that, in fact, Cruz seems to be ahead in Nebraska, Montana, some of the upcoming states.

CAMERON: How sure?

WILLIAMS: Yeah, all right.

GUILFOYLE: OK. I have a question, because they're into this to tag back (ph) on what you're speaking about. I don't understand. I think it's a little bit ill-advised for someone smart as Ted Cruz that should be thinking also more long game. If he doesn't prevail tonight, obviously his campaign is really gonna have. You know, no path going forward, even lacking a strong position to go to any kind of contested convention. So why isn't he thinking about someone who is bright, with a big future, who had a lot of followers, not alienating people. People that come out now to support Donald Trump or Kasich.


GUILFOYLE: . could be his people going forward, you know, in 2020, et cetera.


GUILFOYLE: It doesn't make sense to anger people.

CAMERON: Had that consideration to the money issue that you were talking about which is.


CAMERON: . largely at the Super PAC level at this point. And then bring it to this, and that is that -- those 9 out of 10 republicans who think that Trump is going to win the nomination, a lot of the opposition to Trump is beginning to melt away. More and more people are hearing that it is OK to talk about Trump in polite company now and maybe even support him, because it would still be better than Hillary. And as a consequence of that, those numbers are going up as well. So there's a variety of things that are auguring for Trump and not well for Cruz right now. If he wants to run again, if he wants to go back in the Senate and have some friends --


CAMERON: And if he doesn't want this to look like another budget shutdown that he didn't have a solution for. He had another threat for a contested convention that he couldn't create a gentle, careful, cautious walk away and not to a contested convention. It might be way to show some face.

GUILFOYLE: So in class, yeah.


WILLIAMS: One last quick question before we go to Greg. So the anti-Trump forces, the establishment, it looked like this was going -- they were going to make a stand here. They put some money into advertising. The last two weeks, Mike Pence, the governor is reluctant endorsement of Cruz - again, establishment. So they're -- are they gone? Are they defeated now?

CAMERON: No. They're not going to give up until they had -- until tonight's results and if tonight's results are a blow-out, then you're going to see a lot of that walk -- sort of begin to winnow away, largely because the money won't be there.


CAMERON: Super PAC donors, particularly the mega-whale donors, they're not going to drop 5, 10 million dollars on something they know is a waste of money. They didn't get their money because they made bad bets.

WILLIAMS: Now we go in-depths.

GUILFOYLE: And make the deals.


WILLIAMS: Now we go in-depths, serious.

GUTFELD: Well, I think we're missing the biggest story of the day.


GUTFELD: Imagine if Hillary Clinton claimed that Bernie Sanders had a role in the killing of Bobby Kennedy, we would be going crazy right now.


GUTFELD: We'd be going wall to wall. But no, have we -- are we about to achieve a historical first in electing the first conspiracy freak president? I mean this, the pivot we've been talking about, he's not pivoting from presidential; he's pivoting to Alex Jones. He's pivoting to crazy. And why isn't it news?


FRANCIS: Come on.

GUTFELD: Yeah, but it's unusual that somehow it's not news when Trump does it. It's kind of funny.

FRANCIS: Well, yeah.


WILLIAMS: Wait, wait, would you tell the people what you're talking about?

GUTFELD: What, about the national -- the "National Enquirer"?


GUTFELD: Printing a story saying that Ted Cruz's father was present with Lee Harvey Oswald, just days before the assassination of JFK.

WILLIAMS: And now, Trump has repeated the story.


WILLIAMS: And so Carl, you're on the scene. Is it true? Is it true? Is it true?



GUTFELD: Oliver Stone was right!

GUILFOYLE: Oh, my god.

CAMERON: It is, it is true --

GUILFOYLE: Someone delete Greg's Twitter account.


CAMERON: It is true --

GUILFOYLE: It could be bad.

CAMERON: It is true that that National Enquirer published that story and they say that it's not conclusive. But they do have to --



CAMERON: They do have the pictures they say looks kind of like Rafael Cruz with Lee Harvey Oswald, who was like passing out leaflets in New Orleans in '63, a few months before he obviously shot.


CAMERON: And let's remember that the government and the Warren commission and everyone else said it was one guy, jut Lee Harvey Oswald.

GUTFELD: They would say that --

CAMERON: . with no other co-conspirators. But listen --


CAMERON: Trump did mention it and that's part of what really take off Cruz today.

GUILFOYLE: Well, and the --


GUTFELD: And also, I think too that if Trump gets elected.


GUTFELD: I get to be in charge of the camp trail research.


GUTFELD: And finding big foot.

BOLLING: You know what this is really all about?


GUILFOYLE: Oh my, gosh.

BOLLING: Lying Rafael Cruz.



FRANCIS: You think that Trump actually believes that? That was just his really fun Molotov cocktail to throw over defense to Ted Cruz, when Ted Cruz has already round so tight today. It was the thing that was going to make --


CAMERON: This is --

FRANCIS: Which he did.

CAMERON: This is a device we've seen Ted Cruz -- Donald Trump use a lot.


CAMERON: I'm not saying.


CAMERON: . people have just said to me. And --


WILLIAMS: They said everybody said that the people who run the "National Enquirer" are good pals with Donald Trump.

CAMERON: That's true.

FRANCIS: Well, conspiracy.

CAMERON: Well Donald --

FRANCIS: I love it.


CAMERON: Donald Trump is a socialite in New York City for all of his life. And so, having relations with tabloids there is probably good business.

GUILFOYLE: They having a good social life and being a socialite can pay off.


GUILFOYLE: But you know --


GUILFOYLE: Yeah, you at look at me (inaudible). No, and also the Enquirer has had to walk back a lot of stories, like John Edwards.




WILLIAMS: But wait, wait --


CAMERON: Not that one --




GUTFELD: You can't -- because I take about half of what they say to be true.

FRANCIS: That much? Wow.

GUILFOYLE: Greg, cross them off to the list.

WILLIAMS: I don't know.

GUILFOYLE: . future of --

WILLIAMS: I don't know.


GUTFELD: I do not get my news from the "National Enquirer." Do you want a president who does?

WILLIAMS: Wait a minute, dude.


WILLIAMS: . O.J. Simpson, they crushed O.J. Simpson, they got it right, and way ahead of people, by the way.

CAMERON: Gennifer flowers, they were right.

WILLIAMS: Oh, thank you, Carl.

GUTFELD: So you do believe it?

WILLIAMS: You are so judgmental.

GUTFELD: You do believe it.

WILLIAMS: You are so judgmental Gregory. Well --

GUILFOYLE: Fair and balanced.


GUILFOYLE: There you go.

GUTFELD: The "National Enquirer."

FRANCIS: Are we allowed to go back to asking Carl real questions?

GUILFOYLE: Ask Carl more questions.



FRANCIS: OK, good, because I have a real question for you.


FRANCIS: I love it. I love it. So Cruz obviously already picked his VP. Who do you think would be the best one for Trump? I mean your mom named you Campaign Carl Cameron -- she knew that you're gonna go out --

CAMERON: Actually that was Shep.

FRANCIS: So yes --


FRANCIS: There you go. So you --



FRANCIS: What would be good?

CAMERON: That those meetings actually began really in earnest today, and they're going to continue tomorrow. There will be a lengthy short list and it's going to be vetted. They're going to need to have people who know how to do vetting. So the Trump campaign --



CAMERON: Well --

GUILFOYLE: Reporting, reporting --

CAMERON: He's already talked very -- he's already talk favorably about John Kasich before he started calling him names and one in 44.

GUILFOYLE: And Rubio, he said nice things about.

CAMERON: And Rubio as well.


CAMERON: And the reason those are two obvious choices is one, they were rivals, two they come from Ohio and Florida. And in both cases, they would offer something.



FRANCIS: That will be great.

GUTFELD: Bernie.



GUILFOYLE: And what about Newt Gingrich?

FRANCIS: What about a woman (ph)?

GUILFOYLE: People talked about him.

GUTFELD: No, you talked about it.


WILLIAMS: Wait, wait, wait, Melissa is asking a point --

FRANCIS: I'm serious. I mean like, you talk about what he needs here. I mean, a woman on the ticket would obviously have --

GUILFOYLE: Condoleezza Rice.

FRANCIS: You could have a minority might help with his problems.


FRANCIS: with people of all races.


FRANCIS: Offers some (inaudible) in the military might, you know, back up the idea.

GUILFOYLE: That's right.

FRANCIS: . that doesn't necessarily know.


FRANCIS: . what he's doing from a military perspective. What are some names on that front? It seems like might be (inaudible) or you've heard spoken if you don't want to express your own opinion.

CAMERON: Now that's -- I think they will say this, too. It's way too soon. Trump is really now got to just basically figure out how to finance a general election. He's been self-funding his own campaign. Which to say he's been borrow -- he's been lending money to his campaign. And when we get to the general election.


CAMERON: That's going to be a massive --

GUILFOYLE: Mexico is going to pay for it.


CAMERON: Well, not for --



FRANCIS: That was a good joke. I like that.

BOLLING: Muslim.

CAMERON: He -- there will be, there are already independent --


GUTFELD: Obama can't be VP.

WILLIAMS: No, he can't have.

GUILFOYLE: Do they cancel our 12 o'clock live? --


BOLLING: I have a legit question.

FRANCIS I did too, what do you got?

BOLLING: So honestly.

WILLIAMS: I have a legit question.

BOLLING: There's some recent talk and it's seems to be snowballing, Carl. And maybe you're hearing in, maybe the camps are even talking about it.


BOLLING: That the people that who are Bernie Sanders supporters, who cannot bring themselves to vote for Hillary Clinton for the insider/outsider, are actually looking at Donald Trump -- look to vote for Donald Trump.

CAMERON: That's not a new phenomenon.

GUILFOYLE: And also on trade.

CAMERON: It's been happening -- Well, the trade issues.


CAMERON: Trade issue is a big one.


CAMERON: The trade issue is a big one.


CAMERON: There's always --

GUILFOYLE: Someone is scared.

CAMERON: But there's always been on the democratic left -- I mean, Dick Gephardt used to tie Bill Clinton up in knots over NAFTA back in the '90s.


CAMERON: So, that aspect of Trump's policies will be appealing to some on the left. But from the very beginning, in Bernie and Trump rallies in Iowa and New Hampshire before anybody was caring about either one of them in the early part of last summer, we would always see people walking in and saying, well my second choice is probably Bernie at Trump rally. And you go to a Bernie rally, particularly in New Hampshire. There were tons of people at Sanders rally --


CAMERON: And their second choice after Bernie was Trump.


FRANCIS: That's real?


CAMERON: No it's not. It is absolutely --

BOLLING: The outsiders, yeah.

CAMERON: It is absolutely real.


WILLIAMS: But let me just say, there's a big difference between people who loathe government and government intervention, and people who say oh, I want free health care and free college tuition and government should be more of a nanny state, there's a huge difference.

GUTFELD: It shows you how there are no principles involved in this.

WILLIAMS: Well, I don't know, but I think --


GUILFOYLE: You've got young people who say, we want jobs --

GUTFELD: But you know, from Sanders to trump, you have no principles.

GUILFOYLE: OK. Well, this is like Trump --


GUILFOYLE: And say, you know what? I love the young people, right, of the young people. And so people are supporting Sanders, encourage them to come and join our campaign and our movement because I'm the best one to give you a job and have some future and success going forward.

GUTFELD: You sound like you like Sanders.

BOLLING: Can I add something --

GUILFOYLE: I want all.

BOLLING: The reason why --

GUILFOYLE: . of the coverage.

BOLLING: The reason why this is important it's because --

GUILFOYLE: . and read all of the news.

BOLLING: You know all these general election match-ups?


BOLLING: Match-ups, match-ups.


BOLLING: No one takes that into account with the Sanders vote that may not vote for Hillary. It may jump over to Trump, and you go, oh Trump versus Hillary. Well, because you're looking at people who are interested in Trump or Ted Cruz against Hillary.

WILLIAMS: No, no. You're looking at the general election.


BOLLING: I think this is a new phenomenon.

GUILFOYLE: I do too.


BOLLING: It's almost unpollable (ph).

WILLIAMS: All right.

CAMERON: There's --

GUILFOYLE: It's a movement, not just party ideology.

CAMERON: There are a couple of things that we got --

GUTFELD: It seems like a movement.

CAMERON: Turn-out is way up on the right.

GUILFOYLE: Wait to the commercial.

CAMERON: Get down on the left.


CAMERON: That's a very important thing that sort of undercuts -- or underpins this entire conversation. Republicans are bringing in new voters. Donald Trump is bringing in a new type of voters, that's not happening on the democratic side. Bernie's votes are an awful lot. His rallies, his core are an awful lot, like an Obama core. And Hillary's sort of a dominance, establishment, well that comes from being the secretary of state for the outgoing president, and they are losing turn-out.

WILLIAMS: Let me -- let me add --

CAMERON: Their turn-out is shrinking with that where republican --

WILLIAMS: Without being sort of presumptuous about what's going to happen tonight. Let's look forward a little bit. Where are you headed after Indiana? Which states come into play?

GUILFOYLE: West Virginia.

CAMERON: West Virginia, right now Trump has a huge lead there and incredibly complicated (inaudible) way of allocating delegates. It would be really ironic that, that one state which is notorious for being the hardest to figure out in terms of how the delegates go actually goes probably, entirely to Trump who has been complaining about a rigged system. Nebraska, if Cruz will compete there. Again, he's not going to compete in New Mexico --

WILLIAMS: But Nebraska and Montana, as I said to you earlier.

CAMERON: But all of this --

WILLIAMS: It looks like Cruz is doing well.

CAMERON: All of this assumes that it doesn't, that he continues to go in earnest.


WILLIAMS: Well, because I said Cruz is doing well somewhere? They don't like to see --




WILLIAMS: You are so --


BOLLING: You can tell all Ted Cruz --

WILLIAMS: You so down on Ted Cruz.

BOLLING: Get away with --

WILLIAMS: No, no, no.


CAMERON: It looks like if Ted Cruz wins tonight.


CAMERON: And he'll have to do very, very well in places where he hasn't been. But if that comes to pass, he'll have extraordinary momentum. It will be the upset of the race.


CAMERON: It's been described all over the place as the decisive state. The most important state, the pivotal state, more than any other to this point. If he were to win tonight, that would be huge.

WILLIAMS: He's the Comeback Kid.

CAMERON: But it still might not be enough, unless something went drastically wrong with Trump simultaneously.

WILLIAMS: Right. But I don't think that if he won, even with this momentum, that it could be enough at this point.

CAMERON: That's what I'm saying.

GUTFELD: What about the delegate -- what about the delegate count?

CAMERON: Right now, Trump is about 996. If he sweeps tonight, he gets another 57. That puts him about 200 off the pace to clinch. There are 450 delegates up for grabs after tonight. So he needs 200 of those after tonight.

BOLLING: Wow, 40 percent.

CAMERON: It's not hard. That would put him on a track to California.

BOLLING: He's got some -- something like a 17-point lead in California, with 172 delegates.

FRANCIS: You guys look very cozy over there. You're getting scooched in together.

GUTFELD: It looks like a legal team.

WILLIAMS: He even -- when I said something nice about Ted Cruz...

GUTFELD: Look like they're going to take off...

WILLIAMS: ... he got empathetic for me, because I said something nice about Ted Cruz.

BOLLING: I'm filled with empathy.

WILLIAMS: For Ted Cruz.

BOLLING: Beaming with empathy.

WILLIAMS: All right.

GUILFOYLE: Love overflows.

Because even with Common Core math, he sees the numbers.

WILLIAMS: All right.

WILLIAMS: Directly ahead, Hillary Clinton goes face to face with West Virginia coal miners, and it's not pretty. Details on the coal confrontation and Clinton's attempt to walk back her remarks, when we return.


BOLLING: Hillary Clinton is hitting the trail in West Virginia, but voters in coal country are not happy with her. During a campaign stop in the Williamson yesterday, Clinton was confronted by an emotional man who recently lost his job at a coal company.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you make comments like "We're going to put a lot of coal miners out of jobs," these are the kind of people that you're affecting. This is, this is my family. My hope is gone. That's my future. I just want to know how you can say you're going to put a lot of coal miners out of -- out of jobs. And then come in here and tell us how you're going to be our friend.


BOLLING: Mrs. Clinton then tried to clarify her previous remarks slamming the coal industry.


HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I don't know how to explain it, other than what I said was totally out of context from what I meant. Because I have been talking about helping coal country for a very long time. And I did put out a plan last summer. And it was a misstatement, because what I was saying is that the way things are going now, we will continue to lose jobs. That's what I meant to say.


BOLLING: Oh, really? She was taken out of context, was she? Here's a refresher of her threatening to destroy the coal business in her own words, just two months ago.


CLINTON: I'm the only candidate which has a policy about how to bring economic opportunities, using clean renewable energy as the key, into coal country. Because we're going to put a lot of coal miners and coal companies out of business.


BOLLING: OK, K.G., her own words.


BOLLING: Is she flip-flopping it?

GUILFOYLE: I think that was a powerful moment, because it actually gets a politician to come off the high horse and look in the face and the eyes and the hearts of people who are affected by their loose rhetoric and their disdain for hard-working Americans.

Do not penalize and demonize the coal industry. There are families that are relying on this. It's a good form and source of energy. You should be embracing it and looking at ways like fracking, as well, to be able to create jobs in this country, versus cutting them off and shutting them down.

And that guy's story is very, very compelling. When you think about it, it makes you think about his family, doesn't it?

BOLLING: Yes. Hey, Greg, under President Obama, 29,700 coal mining jobs gone. President Obama did say, "If you want to build a coal-fired power plant, we will bankrupt you."

GUTFELD: And he...

BOLLING: This was a policy on the left.

GUTFELD: This was one war he was happy to wage. And -- and the problem is, coal is a moral substance. Where coal reaches, people live longer, happier lives.

If you're anti-coal, you're anti-fracking, it basically -- it reeks of white ocean privilege. We have all the heat. The hypocrisy of the left -- this is what's amazing to me. Is they always want to get rid of things that work. Effective substances are foreign to them. So that's why they love windmills, right? The left are like windmills in that they can only exist if there's a back-up generator.

GUILFOYLE: But it's true. They like solar power. We know about the cold showers, don't we?

BOLLING: Let's talk about, in terms of politics, West Virginia extremely important for both sides. Right?


BOLLING: She's going to get smoked in West Virginia after this.

WILLIAMS: I don't know. First of all, that guy's a registered Republican. He's not a Democrat. And I will say this.


BOLLING: You think she has a shot in West Virginia after making these comments?

WILLIAMS: No. Well let me just say, I think that, you know, there's something to be said for the idea that coal jobs are going away. And what Hillary Clinton said in trying to clean this up was that she is looking to try to replace those jobs with clean energy jobs, to bring a new plan...

BOLLING: Do you think they're in West Virginia?

WILLIAMS: I think they're going to have to be. Let me just say -- I think -- and by the way, I can't believe that you guys are talking about coal like, "Oh, coal is manna from heaven." Have you tried to breathe in Beijing? Please.

GUILFOYLE: Oh, my God.

FRANCIS: First of all, mine-cycle coal, you can use that. It's clean; it's expensive.

But let me talk to you for a second about Bo Copley, who I interviewed in the past hour, because you say he's a registered Republican. That's how Hillary Clinton attacked him, as well.

He just came on my show on FOX Business. He broke down in tears. He said he fasted for two days and prayed, so that he would have the courage and the right words to say when he spoke to her. That's where that statement came from.

He said that he is supporting his family in West Virginia. They are prideful people. And that he wants to work for a living and that there is nothing else he can do anywhere nearby that provides the same kind of money to support his family, which is all that he wants to do.

WILLIAMS: So he'll have to be retrained.

FRANCIS: Do want? I mean, there's nothing in that state that makes that kind of money. I mean, he said, "That's all great the future" -- hang on. He said, "That's all great in the future. That's not going to help me pay my bills this week."

BOLLING: Can I just, K.G. -- get K.G. in here? There's another state. There's another very important state and one that could variably be the deciding state. Pennsylvania has a ton of coal-mining towns.

GUILFOYLE: Right. And guess what? That's why Trump is saying, if he's the nominee, he wants to put that state -- I know, Juan, you're making this weird stinky face. Anything can happen.

WILLIAMS: That's news to me.

GUILFOYLE: OK, but guess what?


WILLIAMS: A Republican wins in Pennsylvania.

BOLLING: It has happened.

GUILFOYLE: Why should you concede it? I went...

BOLLING: It's a coal state, too.

WILLIAMS: My point to you.

BOLLING: But it's an important coal state.

GUILFOYLE: A Republican can go in. Donald Trump will have an important campaign platform going forward to attract voters in Pennsylvania. And why would you, if you really want to win, concede any state to the other side? I would not.

BOLLING: We've got to go. They're wrapping me up.

Next, more brand-new exit polls from the battle in Indiana straight ahead.


GUTFELD: These are the polling numbers. All right. Welcome back to "The Five." The first polls close in Indiana in about 15 minutes. I'm extremely excited. Kimberly, get off your phone.

GUILFOYLE: I'm on Bolling's phone. I'm looking at the new polling, because this is a FOX News alert. And these numbers are just in.

GUTFELD: Seventy percent of the people polled believe the economy is in big trouble. I think that's a thing; that's a big thing. What do you think?

GUILFOYLE: What do I think? I think these are just the beginning of the numbers that are coming in. It's very important for people to continue to go out and exercise their right to vote. These are preliminary, and the polls have not closed.

GUTFELD: That is so true. Juan, questions? Thoughts?

WILLIAMS: Well, no, I -- these -- what these exit numbers say, I think, in terms of the economic participation, is interesting to me. Because you don't see immigration there.

So I mean, early in the campaign, we were talking immigration. Now we're talking economy.

GUTFELD: Look how low terrorism is.

WILLIAMS: It's very low. That's very low.

GUTFELD: Oh, those are Democrats, no wonder.

WILLIAMS: Oh, sorry.

GUTFELD: Got you, Juan.

WILLIAMS: You got me.

GUTFELD: You walked right into that. You Juaned right into that. You Juan-dered.


BOLLING: The Republicans -- I look at the numbers, holy cow. I mean, if you're -- if you're a "never Trump" person, you're not liking what -- I picked four of maybe six exit poll numbers. The economy, 69 percent. Yes, and those people tend to lean towards Trump. Eighty-four percent of the people are either angry or dissatisfied with government. Hello, there's your guy.

Sixty-five percent say the plurality should be the nominee, not necessarily the majority. In other words, the guy with the most delegates, not necessarily 1,237. There's Trump again in this one. Fifty-nine percent want an outsider.

I mean -- at least as far as Indiana goes, I would say these exit poll numbers show that Trump, should have a very big night tonight.

FRANCIS: It's always about money. I mean, at the end of the day, it's always about money. It goes back to 69 percent...

GUTFELD: What about...

FRANCIS: It is. It is, dammit. It goes back to this idea Republicans, are you worried about the economy? Of all the choices, "very," 70 percent. Everybody is worried about their pocketbook. They're worried about the direction of the economy. You look at it, it's not expanding at the pace that it would be. We're due for another recession. I mean, believe it or not, it's been seven years since the last one. Nobody's caught up, and here we are and we're way back down again.

It's a huge issue. It's only going to get worse between now and November. And it's going to favor the candidate who has a real answer.

GUTFELD: It seems like everything is driven by anger, which is so unusual for Republicans. Remember, we used to believe in facts and reason instead of emotion?


GUTFELD: That's changed. All right. When we come back, our predictions ahead of Indiana's primary. Don't go away.

GUILFOYLE: They're going to...


FRANCIS: We are less than ten minutes away from the first polls closing in Indiana. Getting our first look at some brand-new exit polls from the Hoosier State.

All right, the one that caught my attention the most, is Republicans: "Would you vote if Trump is the GOP nominee? Not for Trump, probably for Trump, definitely for Trump." Not for Trump, 22 percent. Eric Bolling, what do you think about this? If he's the nominee? Twenty-two percent saying they're not going to go vote for him.

BOLLING: So 78 percent said they would?

FRANCIS: No, 55 said yes; 21 said probably.

BOLLING: Right. It looks pretty good. Look -- everything all these polls are pointing to a Trump win, if it happens to be a Trump win. Here's the key.

GUILFOYLE: Got the momentum.

BOLLING: Watch tonight and hear -- listen to what Ted Cruz says when he gets up there. He'll be -- he'll probably be very -- less outspoken. I'm sure he's not going to go after Trump after what, you know, if that is the case. Just look for him to see if he's going to stick around and stay in the race.

WILLIAMS: I don't have to look for any hint. I think Ted Cruz has been very clear. He's staying in this thing, because he says he believes that Trump still won't get to 1,237.

FRANCIS: They all say that right before they drop out.

WILLIAMS: But what struck me...

GUILFOYLE: That's why he picked Carly.

WILLIAMS: There was about 40 percent saying they either definitely won't or probably won't vote for Trump in a general election.


WILLIAMS: What did it say?

FRANCIS: Well, so it's very interesting, because this is what's fabulous about statistic, is that you can make them say whatever you want.

But this is -- he said 22 percent said they would probably vote for Trump if he was the nominee. Probably. Fifty-five definitely; 22 not at all. So you're saying that, of those 21, the probably is not much of a commitment. You're lumping them in with the 22.

WILLIAMS: Well, I'm just saying...

BOLLING: Probably is more "yes" than "no," is it not? Am I mistaken here?

GUILFOYLE: It is like probable cause, which means more likely than not. Sufficient evidence.

BOLLING: Are you taking it as a no?

WILLIAMS: These are Republicans. Indiana Republicans. This is a conservative red state. These are people who want to vote for the Republican nominee.

BOLLING: They said they would probably vote for him.

WILLIAMS: I'm saying...

GUTFELD: Here's the issue. People are indecisive about voting for Trump, because they don't know which Trump they're going to get. The one who says, "We've got to get out of the Middle East." Or the one who says, "Let's take all their oil."

The one who says Ted Cruz is a liar, or the one who gets his news from National Enquirer. The one who says he's pro-military or says that John McCain isn't a war hero.

The one who claims the system is rigged, but used four Chapter 11's to save his own investments.

So it's hard to figure out which Trump you're actually for. The one who called Libya a disaster after egging on the invasion. The one who said don't meddle in the Middle East, but then condemned Obama for not helping Christians in Syria.

So which Trump are you for, Kimberly?

BOLLING: The one that's winning.

GUILFOYLE: The one that's winning and is going to beat Hillary Clinton to take back the White House.

FRANCIS: Shocking turn of events, they would like us to wrap.

Our final thoughts and predictions on the Indiana primary up next.


GUILFOYLE: Time for our final thoughts and predictions for tonight's battle in Indiana. All right. So ladies at the table.

FRANCIS: All right. I'm going to go with one of the poll numbers that we didn't get to in that last segment. Because Greg was singing and going on and on.

Which Republican ran the most unfair campaign? Cruz, 42 percent; Trump, 38. I'm a little surprised that Cruz is on top there, especially after the National Enquirer earlier. I mean, interesting. This has gotten very dirty. But it's equally dirty, according to people that are voting in Indiana.

GUILFOYLE: All right. Bolls.

BOLLING: I think Donald Trump will, after tonight, pivot to Hillary Clinton. He will not waste any more time with the other -- with Cruz and Kasich. And he's going to start taking her on in a general election match- up.

And then -- then those numbers start to get interesting.

GUILFOYLE: And Campaign Carl says that they really want to turn their attention tonight to the general election match-up. And they have a meeting, specifically, I guess, today about doing just that.

All right. Juan, what have you got? Give us your best shot.

WILLIAMS: You know, exit polling is so interesting to me. It says here Indiana Republicans think that the campaign, 40 percent think the campaign has energized the Republican Party. But 57 percent say this campaign has divided the Republican Party. I think that's a troubling statistic.

It's about -- I think when people look back on this campaign, especially the primary and caucuses, they're going to talk about maybe this was a point, a turning point for the Republican Party and Republican politics in this country.

GUILFOYLE: Interesting. That was very "FOX News Sunday." I like it.

WILLIAMS: Thank you.

GUILFOYLE: Greg. Greg.

GUTFELD: That's saying it's smarter than "The Five."

BOLLING: A few seconds.

GUTFELD: Trump's advancement is predicated on the unpopularity of others. He's going to win tonight, because Cruz is not popular. And compared to Hillary, he may be more popular than her, too.

So his pursuit of the White House is predicated on the fact that everybody else is unlikable.

GUILFOYLE: And that's why tonight is so important. Keep your eyes right here on the Fox News Channel for our battle for Indiana primary coverage. See you here back tonight, midnight.

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