Clinton, Sanders want wealthy to pay 'fair share' of taxes

Report: 45 percent of Americans pay no federal income tax


This is a rush transcript from "The Five," April 18, 2016. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

DANA PERINO, CO-HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Dana Perino along with Kimberly Guilfoyle, Ebony Williams, Eric Bolling and Brian Kilmeade. It's 5 o'clock in New York City and this is "The Five." It's April 18th, tax day this year, a day when the rich should be ponying up according to the Democrats.


PERINO: -- like Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders. Take a look.


SEN. BERNIE SANDERS, DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We tell the billionaire class, they cannot have it all for a start. They gonna start paying their fair share of taxes.


HILLARY CLINTON, DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I want to make sure the wealthy pay their fair share.

SANDERS: Wealthy and the large corporations will start paying their fair share of taxes.

CLINTON: The money is at the top, and that's where we need to be shifting our tax system. I want to impose what I call a fair share surcharge on incomes of $5 million or more.

SANDERS: Well, corporate America, bad news, change is coming. You are going to have to start paying your fair share of taxes.

CLINTON: The first thing we are going to do is make sure the tax system makes the wealthy pay their fair share.


PERINO: And even "Saturday Night Live" is mocking the tax the rich calls.


JULIA LOUIS-DREYFUS, "SEINFELD" ACTRESS: Do you believe that the super-rich should pay more in taxes?

LARRY DAVID, "SEINFELD" CO-CREATOR: Yes, right. That's right.

LOUIS-DREYFUS: Yeah, but wouldn't that be bad for actors who made a lot of money on a certain very successful sitcom?


DAVID: Yeah, so?

LOUIS-DREYFUS: Well, I mean, wouldn't it be even worse for the person who created that sitcom?


LOUIS-DREYFUS: I mean, wouldn't he lose a lot of money? Do you see what I'm saying?


DAVID: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you should vote for her.



PERINO: They had a lot of fun with that. You know, this is Eric Bolling's wheel house. I will get to him in one second. I want to show you a full screen of this chart here, 45 percent of people in America paid no federal income tax. That doesn't necessarily mean they didn't pay state income tax, but 45 percent paid no federal income tax. Tax reform being the thing that we agree is the most important thing, public policy-wise we could do to grow the economy. What do you think things stand?

ERIC BOLLING, CO-HOST: That number is amazing, 45 percent are not paying, 50 -- then its 55 percent, almost half the people are paying for the whole, the whole pie. So $4 trillion are spent every year. We borrow some of it, but the vast majority of the wealthy are paying for, there's another -- I don't know if you have other charts in here, but the breakdown is the top 20 percent. The top 1 in 5 Americans are paying for 70 percent of all outlays in America. That is insane. Right now, you pay federal income tax. You pay either likely state income tax or property tax at the state level. You pay property taxes, then you pay sales taxes, then you pay death tax. A tax you literally from birth to death. Meanwhile, if you are on the take, on the other side of the one of the 45 percent, you are likely getting unemployment insurance, you likely getting health care, free health care. You probably are getting food stamps. You probably are getting a phone, you begin the internet. You're getting help with your heating electric bills, the one that -- so, the -- we are very close to the tipping point where, when that goes to 51 percent, the people aren't paying anything. You will never change the system. So Bernie Sanders, Hillary Clinton -- Hillary talking about shifting, how much more can you shift? When the top 20 percent are paying --


BOLLING: Particularly, 70 percent. I can't imagine you shift any further. One last thought, I saw President Obama tax return, he paid about 17 percent federal income tax rate. So he took what he paid versus what his income was, 17 percent. I paid over 32 percent. Why is it unfair?

PERINO: Why was that?

BOLLING: Why? Is it -- because he has a lot of tax loopholes that he's using. He's a mass user of the loopholes.

GUILFOYLE: Hmm, hmm, hmm.

PERINO: Well -- the other thing is --

GUILFOYLE: And you just outed him.


PERINO: So the other thing you heard that Hillary Clinton say is something President Obama had said a lot, which is that phrase, "fair share."

GUILFOYLE: "Fair share," right.

PERINO: And so, it sounds to me like it must for their -- in their focus group, it must still work.

GUILFOYLE: Yeah, and how about fair share surcharge for the rich? I mean, how much more are you expected to tax and drain this resource of people who are out there working hard, creating jobs, stimulating the economy? These are people that are makers, not takers. And it's appalling to me. How about fairness in terms of everybody paying a little something in terms of taxes? Why is it the 45 percent of the population of this country is not contributing back to the rest? Pay what you can. Sure. And their systems that (inaudible) --great ideas going forward to be able to do that that are really, yes, revamping the tax system that we have in this country, because obviously, the IRS is broken. Somebody should start right with that. But they're really lazy, the lazy idea. The dispiriting idea of punishing entrepreneurship in this country is what Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton are espousing.

EBONI WILLIAMS, GUEST HOST: I think you make a very good point, KG, about this, this, you know -- it really dis-incentivizes doing well in America


WILLIAMS: So I think when Hillary Clinton talks about a surcharge -- it is lazy. And here's the problem, because you're punishing those that do the best among us, but you're not really doing. And then there's the 45 percent that you know, many of us, me included, were floating. But what about the --


WILLIAMS: I mean, we are, right? But what about the truest middle class, right? The people that are making between $36,000 in, you know, New York City, it sounds like a lot when you say a hundred and fifty or $200,000, as if it can go as far with in some of the cities. Those are the people. We are in that 32 percentile, 33, 34 percentile bracket, and that hurts the worst. To me this is very simple.

GUILFOYLE: But you are paying taxes --

WILLIAMS: Yeah, I'm paying a lot.


WILLIAMS: That's what I'm saying. So let's incentivize working, so that -- if you are making $35,000, you're not in that horrible tax bracket. I do agree there used to be reform there, but we don't want to just punish those that do really well. That's not the answer either.


BRIAN KILMEADE, GUEST CO-HOST: I think that there's a sense that people who are doing well are cheating.


KILMEADE: And instead of saying, OK, the stats don't lie, the numbers don't lie. The top 1 percent pay 23 -- pay an average of 23 percent, that's 17 -- that's 7 percent higher than anybody else. If you're lucky enough to make or work hard enough to make $2.1 million, 43 percent of your income is going to the government. So if you are productive, and you are making $2 million, and you are giving almost half of it away, where is the incentive to double that and keep it going? Instead of lauding those people, you are making them feel guilty for having a nice car, a big house, a nice suit. It's a mindset in America that's changed over the last five years, and I don't -- or seven years, and I just don't get it.

PERINO: But I -- I do think that republicans have an obligation to put forward plans that would help lift all votes, right? So, because you want people -- you want all people to be able to --


PERINO: Have the economic mobility --


PERINO: And the three candidates, Donald Trump, Ted Cruz and John Kasich have all spoken about taxes in the last couple months, and we have a little montage for you.



DONALD TRUMP, REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I have the biggest tax cut there is of all of them. We have a tax cut for the middle class. We have a tax cut of this. Our business, our middle class -- we're paying the highest taxes in the world. We are cutting tax so we can bring our $2.5 trillion back into the country.

SEN. TED CRUZ, REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We get rid of all the taxes. We get rid of the corporate income tax, and the death tax, and the Obamacare taxes, and the payroll tax.


CRUZ: And we'll replace it with a 16 percent business flat tax that is border adjustable.

GOV. JOHN KASICH, REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We are going to reduce the corporate taxes to 25 percent. We are going to bring the profits back from Europe, because we are not going to double tax them. We are going to simplify the tax code and lower the taxes.


PERINO: OK, Eric, this is where I think there is a disconnect. If you are a democrat or let say you're an independent, and you hear republicans saying they want to lower taxes, they think that just for their own self- interest. They don't connect the -- I think the republican candidates are not connecting the dots that a better taxes that would mean stronger economic growth in the country, which helps everyone.

BOLLING: I like the idea of -- I think tax -- we need tax reform. I really do. I think corporations have to have a specific tax rate. Right now it's the top rate is around 39 percent now, but if you can bring it down with loopholes, and I hate this. As I just said.

PERINO: Right.

BOLLING: . I just paid more than 32 percent in my income and federal income tax. I hate the fact that I can't play with loopholes, the way President Obama can. He has more ways of doing it. We need the fair -- make it completely fair. Fair tax would be the best way to do it with that.

PERINO: What does that mean?

BOLLING: Fair tax is 23 percent across the board tax, whether you are a corporation, whether you are self-employed, whether it's your own tax, but you don't pay income tax. You pay at 23 percent in any good you buy. So in other words, if you produce a house --


BOLLING: You make a house.


BOLLING: You are buying lumber for your house; you pay 23 percent for the lumber. When you sell the house, the person buying the house pays 23 percent. It's straight across the board, there aren't loopholes. I love the idea, but it's so far down the road. In the meantime, just a simple, file the tax code. Make 25 percent.


BOLLING: . your corporate income -- forget all these loopholes. Make us competitive with the rest of the world and stop playing games, one oil company or one solar company. He can get the tax break that, that a car company can.


WILLIAMS: And now what?

PERINO: But the loophole is something that the government uses to have power over people and to reward or punish. And so I think that is one of the problems. I interrupt.

WILLIAMS: No, because I thought you made such a brilliant point. As an independent, I think many don't trust that when you incentivize and help out the most wealthy, that it is going to trickle down and benefit them.

PERINO: Right.

WILLIAMS: I think that's -- you're right. That dot is being missed. Here's the other issue, if you have those two groups that are winning in America, right? Those that don't really work at all and they get floated. And those that, you know, are the most successful among us. And where that it lead those that are in the middle?

KILMEADE: Right. I guess the middle-class, for some reason is listed at $36,000? Can you please tell someone who is making $36,000 that they feel like middle-class?


WILLIAMS: Exactly.


KILMEADE: It's impossible to think that.


KILMEADE: And before you go and say Bernie Sanders is my man, he's making a lot of sense. I think you should go down. He has a detail, look at his tax plan. For example, if you are living the luxury life of making $92,000, instead of bringing home $2600 a week, you're gonna bring home $2300 week. If you are making $32,000 a week, instead of paying $1200, you take it home $1,040. So let's start really drilling down. Where does that money go? Into the general pot, because the rich have had it too good for today long, you know rich people make $92,000 --

PERINO: You explained that well. You explained Bernie's tax plan well for people about -- taking the $9 out of your wallet.

GUILFOYLE: Well, but it's really true, and that's what I tell people. I`m very, you know, very simple. Like let's just break this down, cliff notes file when you been out too late at night and you need this -- the (inaudible) book --

KILMEADE: Like you, last night.

GUILFOYLE: "War and Peace" before the exam the next day. You have, you know, $10. Bernie wants you to give nine of it and you can keep the dollar. If a dollar make you holler, fine. But you can't get like Venezuela and South (inaudible), you're not gonna have milk, you're not going to have antibiotics, you're not going to have -- toilet people -- toilet paper, some people need that. These are the problems. They are not thinking through the basics of what they are (inaudible). They say it sounds good to me. And they want to be for the cool stuff.

BOLLING: Can I jump on that also? Here is the other downside of Bernie Sanders plan of taxing up to 90 -- these corporations, big success corporations up to 90 percent. We've seen it going on right now. Pfizer and they're in the middle of this tax inversion.


BOLLING: What the company say, I'm not going to pay 35 percent or 90 percent --


BOLLING: Let's say it's 90, they don't want him to pay 35 percent and say, I'm going to go domiciles, buy a small company in Italy or at least in other country, where the tax rate are low and domicile there --

PERINO: Panama.

BOLLING: Wherever. And then move your headquarters.

GUILFOYLE: Panama papers.

BOLLING: Now guess what whose tax rates you are paying, you are paying that one.


BOLLING: So that be you --

KILMEADE: He could have passed a rule.

BOLLING: Bernie has to survive half of corporate America overseas.

KILMEADE: So he's going to pass a rule not to do that. And this president is trying to think about doing that too. Making it impossible for these companies to go and leave this country.


PERINO: And that's where conservatives -- I really think what they should be talking about now, a detailed, specific plan like that you just broke down on. You know, if any of the candidates, Trump, Cruz or Kasich, if they could say to people this is what my plan is, if you make a hundred thousand dollars, and right now you are paying this, under my plan, you would pay that. And show --


WILLIAMS: Demonstrate it.

PERINO: Don't just tell. You have to show people.

KILMEADE: Right. I'll tell you, the most intriguing one is Governor Kasich, because he has done it and he compromised. He knows where the democrat top button are, the republicans top buttons are. He understands what didn't trickle down and what did. I think he has a lot of credibility there. That's possibly why independents and moderates tend to --

WILLIAMS: They are looking at him for that very reason for, and I think you are right on that. KG --


WILLIAMS: The biggest problem with you -- I love your cliff notes of Bernie's plan. Look, I like a lot of what Bernie says from one perspective. Here is where Bernie Sanders loses me. When you start talking about taxing at a 50 percent rate from income, here's the problem with that --

KILMEADE: Fifty-two.

WILLIAMS: Fifty- two. I don't even mind the theory of it, right? If I was gonna -- if we were going to get good schools.


WILLIAMS: If we're going to get, you know, effective health care. The truth is American government hasn't demonstrated their ability to manage the taxes that they already get. So that really to me is that the real problem with that. Why would you invest money in a bank that's already shown you a loss versus a profit? I haven't seen a profit on the taxes that we already pay. Why give more?

GUILFOYLE: She's right. It's like rewarding a juvenile delinquent with a higher allowance.


GUILFOYLE: Boy, you really blowing it up. You've only -- you've been arrested four times this month. Let me increase your allowance and you have to do no chores at home. That's the model. Why would you do that? Because the government has been failing fast, the things like great ideas like Solyndra, other areas where we seen tremendous ways, regulation, crippling small businesses in America. Oh, and then we let them touch the third rail of health care and, you know, shock us to death on that. So stop it.

PERINO: I'll give you $5 for every time this year that you bring up Solyndra, my favorite store.

GUILFOYLE: I know. Where is that little graphic we have?

KILMEADE: Doesn't seem to have --

GUILFOYLE: Solyndra.

PERINO: Last word Eric? And you think?

BOLLING: No, I think you guys have nailed it across the board. We spend -- what Bernie wants to do is he wants to raise taxes so that he go ahead and offer free tuition -- social program.

PERINO: Who doesn't want free stuff?

BOLLING: For a second --

WILLIAMS: If it's not free, and we even --

BOLLING: Right, right.

WILLIAMS: Smart people know that all Eric.

BOLLING: But instead, instead what they could do is incentivize colleges.


WILLIAMS: They know.

BOLLING: Maybe to bring their prices down so that is more affordable.

WILLIAMS: Competitive --

BOLLING: . in which it actually work on --


PERINO: Or there's innovation. Did you see what Purdue University is doing?


PERINO: They just -- yes.


PERINO: You are going to be interested in this.

BOLLING: Very interested.

PERINO: The Governor Mitch Daniels, former governor, now the head of Purdue, they are doing an income sharing agreement.


PERINO: . with some of the students. It is in the "Wall Street Journal" editorial today. Check it out parents; you might now look at Purdue in Indiana.


PERINO: All right, coming up, Donald Trump unveils his new nickname for Hillary Clinton. Is it gonna stick?


PERINO: Plus, what Hillary thinks about it. That's next.


BOLLING: "Little Marco", "Lyin' Ted", "Low Energy Jeb"; Donald Trump is the king of branding his opponents with nicknames, and he just got a new one for Hillary Clinton.


TRUMP: And then, of course, we have "Crooked Hillary." Crooked Hillary, folks. She's been crooked from the beginning, and to think that she has a shot at being our president, "Crooked Hillary Clinton". We can't let it happen.


BOLLING: That one might stick. But what does the democratic front-runner think about Crooked Hillary?


CLINTON: I don't respond to Donald Trump and his string of insults about me. I can take care of myself. I look forward to running against if he turns out to be the republican nominee if I am the democratic nominee. He can say whatever he wants to say about me. I really could care less. I'm going to stay focused on the issues, because there are stark differences between where I think our country needs to be headed, and where he would turns us back and undermine the progress that we've been making.


BOLLING: All right Dana, what do you think of --


PERINO: Well, first of all, the thing that really bothered me is Hillary Clinton said she, she could really care a less, and the phrase that you couldn't really care a less. And so this -- there's was like a little niggling thing for me.

GUILFOYLE: So far for them.

PERINO: When it comes to -- well, let's not -- not talk about (inaudible) - - no problem.


PERINO: What Donald Trump has done by labeling people is very effective, and I hate it.


PERINO: OK? So I, I think it -- I think it diminishes him. But, that's my personal opinion. It's obviously effective by labeling other people. The thing for her is that -- I think crooked might stick, you're right. I actually that think cunning is a better word, but it doesn't work in terms on the --

KILMEADE: It could be a positive.


KILMEADE: It could be a positive, though.

GUILFOYLE: But cunning can -- yeah. It can have a positive connotation with we can --


PERINO: But she's not being --


PERINO: She's not being convicted of anything to say somebody is crooked.

BOLLING: Well, if all --


GUILFOYLE: You know what it is so? It goes in hand --


GUILFOYLE: Yeah, with like influence peddling, and the Clinton, and kill list, which I like that part. But besides that, it's just people have that general perception of a lack of honesty, a loose relationship with the truth. Say anything, do anything, pay me something "Wall Street;" crooked, not quite right and not becoming commander-in-chief.

KILMEADE: Well, even "SNL" picked up on when it came to the minimum wage, something like that. She was between 12 and 15, because she was just adopting his principles. Here's actually talking some of his -- some of Bernie Sanders sayings on the stump when he was in single digits. And when he started improving, he just took them. And then if you have a situation where you can back it up where there are situations in her background where it doesn't seems as though she is telling the truth. For example of our later topics, Saudi Arabia, I have no idea what those families problem is. Well, how about the fact that Saudi Arabia might have something to do with the death of 3,000 people. And she was New York senator. That is not telling the truth. So I think it only works, Dana, if there is a semblance of truth.

PERINO: I agree.

KILMEADE: . to the label. If there's no truth to it, then there's a problem.

BOLLING: And Eboni, we can take this all the way back to the Clinton administration when Bill said, it depends on what is your meaning of is, is.

WILLIAMS: All of it.


WILLIAMS: Yeah, the Clintons are not.

BOLLING: The history year (ph).

WILLIAMS: . fresh to the types of (inaudible).


WILLIAMS: You know --


WILLIAMS: You know, I'm looking at crooked, and I should think Trump could have done better. To your point Brain, then it's to be truth, but also set (inaudible). I think "Low Energy Jeb" is brilliant because it was so specific, like you almost got a visual image of what Donald Trump was talking about. "Little Marco," I mean that goes without saying. I think crooked is kind of broad. I think he should have called a "Flip-flop Hillary." You know, because she will do --


PERINO: Oh, we already did that with John Kerry.




KILMEADE: You got that. That was a terrible.

WILLIAMS: But something like that, sometimes it a little more specific to like, you're right, her loose relationship with the --

KILMEADE: Eboni --


KILMEADE: He would love to better use "Lyin' Ted" on Ted.



WILLIAMS: It would really been better applied --

PERINO: Last month, and I thought --


PERINO: I thought that Donald Trump was gonna go with "Incompetent Hillary," because competent being the issue with people so mad at Washington. I thought that was effective. I mean "Crooked Hillary" might stick as well.

WILLIAMS: Hit might. I thought he was gonna go with maybe "Criminal Hillary," but you're right. She has to be convicted --

PERINO: Right.

WILLIAMS: So it's actually with --

PERINO: No, but you need to have --

WILLIAMS: Like you know.

PERINO: It has to be two syllables. OK, it can't be --

WILLIAMS: Oh, I hear you.

PERINO: So incompetent -- that's not gonna work.

WILLIAMS: It's a little to --

PERINO: "Crooked Clinton" that's it.

BOLLING: But you know what this also that this --

WILLIAMS: "Crooked Clinton."

KILMEADE: That's (inaudible). We're pro (inaudible).

BOLLING: It is also put some --


BOLLING: It quick to bring the Clinton Foundation into play.

GUILFOYLE: Yeah, that's what I was saying.


BOLLING: A lot of people wondering Clinton Foundation. Yeah, what's going with that?


BOLLING: You add crooked to that, and a lot of people think some of the stuff that's going on there -- crooked.

GUILFOYLE: And could do a global perspective, because it is like reaching out. We're like united colors of Benetton, we'll do implements fair with any country, you know. You just got a little Clinton's cash register -- hello, show me the money.

PERINO: Well, one of the other guys that were reveled in the Panama papers had given the Clinton Foundation a hundred million dollars.


KILMEADE: Why wouldn't he? We're not really sure what the Clinton's foundation is doing. They got a lot of money.

WILLIAMS: And who's involved --

KILMEADE: They have really nice characters.

WILLIAMS: I will give Hillary Clinton just one thing of credit on this. I think her response was pretty smart because she is so divisive right now.


WILLIAMS: . in her --


WILLIAMS: In her own party, though.

PERINO: I don't know.

WILLIAMS: For her to flip it though, to Trump being very destructive and he becomes the boogeyman against women and Muslims. I think that's one of the few cards she has left, actually.

BOLLING: You know what interesting -- very quickly, I think they want us to wrap -- but very quickly, if a new demeanor out of Donald Trump -- lately, we haven't heard a lot of rhetoric and we did hear "Crooked Hillary," but that was really, it, for the last few days now.

KILMEADE: It's been unbelievable. And I think that (inaudible) on a stabbing, get some experience in there. I think he's showing that he's listening. Because he's playing why do I need the headache? I'm about to win New York, big. Maybe I can regroup in my hometown, do some business, buy some buildings.


KILMEADE: . and then hire some people to do some interviews.

BOLLING: We do some fun. Can you go to our Facebook page and name all of us? Can you name us?


BOLLING: I want to know. I want to hear what you have to say.

GUILFOYLE: oh, terrible. Here we go.

BOLLING: All right, ahead. Was it illegal for President Obama to unilaterally shield millions of illegals from deportation? The Supreme Court on the case -- next.

GUILFOYLE: Well, it's one of the most polarizing issues of the 2016 presidential race -- immigration.


TRUMP: And we are going to have the wall.


TRUMP: We're going to have the wall, 100 percent.


TRUMP: Are you ready?

CROWD: Build that wall! Build that wall! Build that wall!

TRUMP: Who is going to pay for the wall?

CROWD: Mexico!


CROWD: Mexico!

TRUMP: Hundred percent, hundred percent.

CLINTON: I would create the first ever office of immigrant affairs. It would build on the work at the Obama administration task force and create a dedicated place in the White House to coordinate immigration policies across the federal government and with state and local government as well.


GUILFOYLE: And today, the Supreme Court took on the subject. The justices will decide whether President Obama overstepped his bounds with executive actions to keep millions of illegal immigrants from deportation. Justice Kennedy may think, so he questioned earlier, whether a president has the power alone to defer deportation. He cited it as a legislative task and specifically not an executive one. So this is an issue, obviously, that people are very concerned about. It's one of the things that people believed Donald Trump has received a lot of positive traction where people saying immigration out of control, people just penetrating the borders left and right, issues of national security. Obviously the economy, Dana, is important as well. But this is something that has people pretty fired up in terms of their rhetoric for or against the candidate.

PERINO: They certainly at his rally, that's for sure. But in all of the exit polls and then the recent -- most recent issue polls is when you ask people what the most important issue when it comes to -- what you care about the most. Immigration is almost always like the one of the bottom three. It's not in the top. But I do think that people think of the economy and immigration being intertwined.

GUILFOYLE: Connect the job.

PERINO: OK, so on that point, I actually think that the office of Hillary Clinton is talking about creating; it's not a bad idea. And so, if you set aside people that are here illegally, and you do that one way, that if you have people who are trying to go through the process legally and they are doing -- trying to do everything right and it is just impossible.


PERINO: . because of bureaucracy is so messed up. I think that, that actually is not a bad idea for whoever takes over as president. That's not bad.

GUILFOYLE: Bolling, broken borders and immigration system that really is completely sailing this country. You have Americans struggling to get jobs, to put food on the table, money in their accounts and you see people walking across; and then we have to take care of it.

BOLLING: So what's going on here with the Supreme Court is President Obama wanted to shield 4 to 5 million people who are scheduled for deportation. The courts, the lower courts stopped it. So your program, we're not going to sign on to your program. It became such an issue, it shot up to the Supreme Court. And now that the supreme court likely is a 4-4, which means that there's no decision. It will just go back on to the lower court's decision which puts a freeze on President Obama's shielding of those 4 or 5 million people; putting them back up for deportation. I think one of the smartest things that could happen here -- and you pointed this out, the court had said it's a legislative pass.


BOLLING: . not executive one, meaning --


BOLLING: . to take it out of President Obama's hands.

GUILFOYLE: Separation of power.

BOLLING: But make sure it's done legally through the courts and through a Congress. The smartest thing to do here; close up the borders, seal the border whether it's your wall or figure out ways you see verify, seal the border. And then, it rather -- maybe rather than sending all 12 or 15 million people back, increase legal -- legal, legal immigration. So who we let about a million people in a year, let 3 million people in a year. Stop fighting this. It is not a close society.


BOLLING: We need more immigrants, but we need legal immigrants where they get on the books, pay taxes and vote. That's fine. It's the way the system should work.

KILMEADE: The thing is, there's so many parts of immigration reform that everyone agrees on. It's the illegal immigrants, the people that got here and snuck in, whatever they decide to do when they got here is for another conversation. But there's a lot of things we can do to make the college kids and the stars that we're sending to Harvard, and send them into Silicon Valley, where they prefer to be in many cases, rather than back towards where they came from.

We're going to get a decision in June. I'm wondering, from the court's perspective, not to sound like Shannon Bream, because I do think she does a very good job. But I do think the court is going to go out of their way not to make it 4-4. I think they're going to say, "This is getting a little embarrassing. Can we not do everything on ideological grounds? If you know it's a 4-4, and it's going to come, you know what's going to happen? It's going to go back down, and it's going to be upheld. Therefore, the president is not going to be able to do this. Why don't we do something a little different?"

WILLIAMS: I wish I agreed with you and had as much faith as you do, Brian, because I really see this court as one of liking to kick the can and avoid that type of finite decision that you're talking about. But I would love to see it.

I'll make these two quick points. No. 1, this became an executive action because of congressional inaction. Now, I'm not saying that that justifies President Obama's tactic here, but that's how we got here.

The second point is this. It's an ends-justify-the-means argument that I see the president is making. And I think that's the problem with the plan. Right? I mean, absolutely, we have a broken, inefficient, ineffective immigration system. And that's why people are maybe getting frustrated or whatever reason. They are bypassing it, and they are coming here improperly. And we should not reward that, though, with allowing them to stay here.

I think that sends the wrong message. What we do is we fix it, and we force Congress to take action.

KILMEADE: Right. You've got to seal the borders before they take action.

WILLIAMS: Right. We don't want to reward, you know...

BOLLING: We're giving them driver's licenses.

WILLIAMS: That's not right.

BOLLING: This is what Republicans -- this is how get nailed all the time. "Yes, I'm not going to tell you what my immigration program is until we seal the border." And it's a get-out-of-jail-free card. They don't have to come up with a plan.

WILLIAMS: And nobody trusts that. And nobody trusts that in the middle and on the left.

BOLLING: Go ahead and seal the border. Donald Trump is the one who stepped up and said build a wall. If you don't like build a wall, how do you seal the borders so you can get to next step of "Now here's my plan"?

WILLIAMS: You're exactly right on this, though, because until that issue is remedied, Eric, then the left and the middle or whoever are not going to trust the Republicans to come up with a plan that works in favor and reward legal immigration.

KILMEADE: Well, didn't President Bush try this? A Republican president tried this and could not get the support.

PERINO: But remember who blocked it. It was the Democrats who blocked it, because they wanted the issue for politics.

WILLIAMS: I think it's advantageous for both sides to continue blocking it.

PERINO: It wasn't in 2007, from our perspective. But it might be now.

I think there is one way that you could look at the model of what Texas has been able to do. The governor of Texas, the way that they figured out a way, a mix of some actual physical border, some technology, some drones. But they've also sent a lot of their National Guard down there, and they are funding a huge amount of the Border Patrol.

GUILFOYLE: Rick Perry was there. Yes.

PERINO: That issue is going to come up to the court, as well, which is immigration and securing the borders is a federal government issue. And they're not paying for it. The state of Texas is paying for it. And that is -- that bill is going to come due.

BOLLING: But do you go ahead and step on one of the -- the many Republican third rails, aside from Social Security? But do you go ahead and say companies who are caught hiring illegals get fined? I mean...

PERINO: That's the law now.

WILLIAMS: Enforce it.

BOLLING: You enforce it?

PERINO: Yes, well, I mean, you know what it's like, when they start doing -- even President Obama faced this. When they did those raids at some of the meatpacking plants, there's a -- it disrupts a lot of things, a lot of families. So there's sensitivity to it. But if the laws exist...

WILLIAMS: They are not being enforced, like I said, because I think that both sides do get an advantageous effect from not really being solid on this.

GUILFOYLE: But it's at a point now where it really must be handled and dealt with. Because the porous border, no one wins. There is the chaos. It's, you know, confusion for everybody. There should be some clear lines, and you should enforce the laws that are on the books right now as we speak that are not. And it's really impacted, as well, the criminal justice system. But it has tentacles across all areas, of national security, of jobs, the economy, of health care, of welfare, all of the above. Of education and children.

PERINO: There's also people that come in legally but then overstay their visa. Those are the hardest people to find.

BOLLING: That is...

PERINO: That's not a border -- they're not crossing the border back and forth every day. They're here, and then they decide to just not go home.

GUILFOYLE: All right. Let's do the honor system. Everyone raise their hands.

KILMEADE: Right. If you're here illegally, please leave.

WILLIAMS: You know the people (UNINTELLIGIBLE) was talking about? OK, got it.


KILMEADE: We almost solved immigration. We're running out of time.

GUILFOYLE: If only we had a couple more minutes from our producers.

OK, President Obama heading to Saudi Arabia amid a dispute over its role in 9/11. And now that country's leaders are threatening the United States if Congress passes a bill making them liable. The threat and our response, next.


KILMEADE: As you know, Saudi Arabia has long denied any role in the 9/11 attacks, even though 15 of the 19 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia. Now the families of the victims want the ability to sue the kingdom and eight other governments who might have supported terror.

But Congress is now considering a bill to allow that to happen. There's been a bill on the books since 1976 that didn't. But the Obama administration is trying to block the legislation and protect the Saudis.

Now, the Saudis are also threatening to sell off billions of dollars of American T-bills in kind of a threat to us -- that's from the foreign minister -- if Congress goes ahead and passes this, allowing the families to sue.

So let's begin this conversation, Eric, with the fact 9/11, 2001, this has been 15 years. The families have been relentless. 2004, they combined to take on the Saudi government. But you can't sue another government if you're -- if you are an American citizens unless they overturn this.

BOLLING: I'm trying to figure out why we're being held hostage by the Saudis right now. The Saudis say that they have $750 billion in assets that they would liquidate immediately.

KILMEADE: T-bills, right?

BOLLING: The thing is, but they don't. I think the Wall Street Journal came up with it's under 300 billion. So less than half of what they're claiming, No. 1.

No. 2, you don't negotiate like this. If the bill passes, if it passes through the proper channels, too bad. Saudi Arabia has -- where is Mecca? Saudi Arabia, right? Don't you think every -- every religious fanatic in the Middle East wants Mecca? We're there. The reason why they don't take it from Saudi Arabia is because we protected Saudi Arabia. We have been an ally to Saudi Arabia. We've given them arms; we've sold them arms. We've given them access to power to fend off all these various groups that would love to have Saudi Arabia, love to have their oil.

It's time for us to say, "Saudis, listen, this is not our call. And don't threaten us." Because I have news for you, if Saudis play this game, you know who has a hell of a lot more T-bills than Saudi Arabia? China, they have trillions of dollars of T-bills. They could do the same thing to us.

KILMEADE: Well, there's so many facets to this; there's moving parts. One is the 28 pages. Two weeks ago, "60 Minutes," one of the most popular shows in the history of television, does a big feature. And it's led by Senator Graham, the ranking member on the Democratic side, who's now retired. He says, "Listen, you've got to release these 28 pages." In it, it allegedly describes how Saudi Arabian nationals with links to government financially assisted the 19 -- 15 of the 19 hijackers.

This comes out as the president is about to visit Saudi Arabia, as a bipartisan push in the Senate, Cornyn and Schumer, pushed this legislation through.

PERINO: Looking at me. OK, so I -- because I held a security clearance in the previous administration and because I believe I've read this document, and because I take my classification and top security clearance very seriously, I'm not allowed to talk about it until the president makes a decision on this or it passes the Congress. But I can't talk...

GUILFOYLE: Is that Hillary Clinton?

PERINO: I can talk about the bipartisan angle of this, which I thought was very interesting, because you have Cornyn and Schumer. They're not the most likely pair to get together. But it's not just them. Al Franken of Minnesota, Ted Cruz, Republican of Texas, also presidential candidate, have all been supportive of this.

I am sympathetic to the families. I think they -- I understand what they're looking for, but I also find the timing of this very interesting. It goes back to my theory. Every time the president of the United States, no matter who it is, when they go on a foreign trip, something big happens. And walking into Saudi Arabia now with this on their back is going to be a tough meeting.

KILMEADE: The president is going to be there Wednesday. He's against passing this legislation. He wants to -- he wants to -- he covets the alliance, despite alienating it, arguably, for the last seven or eight years, Kimberly. So what do you think happens here? The president is going to go against the two Democratic Senate leadings among Democratic senators who are -- one is a former senator, who are likely to be the next nominee from his party.

GUILFOYLE: I think he's only going to be able to hold the line so far. Because it seems that he's just on the wrong side of this once again, which is really no surprise. So whether or not you have a Democrat come in the White House or you have a Republican succeed, I think you're going to see a very firm foot with respect...

KILMEADE: But clearly President Bush didn't want this out either.

GUILFOYLE: But yes, but now, President Obama is in. And who's coming in terms of all the candidates right now, they're running, what is their position on this? And what about the families and the victims of 9/11?


GUILFOYLE: Are we supposed to just overlook somebody who had been, according to what we think from these papers, to be linked and involved and supportive of terrorism?

PERINO: There might have been intel threads to pull eight years ago. Are there still threads to pull now? Maybe not.

KILMEADE: Right. Eboni, I want you to watch this and see how it plays into the election cycle. Because here are the two Democratic nominees, have -- getting this issue.


SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (D-VT), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It's important to have a full investigation and an understanding of the role, the possible role of the Saudi government in 9/11. There were, as you know, some 28 pages that are not yet classified, information that has not been released. We also ask for the release of that information.

HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I stand with Senator Schumer on this.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) the Obama administration bring up.

CLINTON: I'm standing with him.


KILMEADE: Yesterday, she was. Then she said it was the first time she was hearing of it.

WILLIAMS: Yes, again, flip-flop Hillary. But obviously, it's been taken. Yes, she stands with him. She's also standing with Ted Cruz. She's also standing with John Cornyn.

I think that we have to always pay attention anytime we see such a line in the sand between very -- you know, how many times have we seen true bipartisanship around something to this extent?


WILLIAMS: And then, to Dana's point, on the other side is the executive position. I mean, that looks suspicious.

To something Eric said, though, I think he talked about, you know, when are we going to stop kind of being held hostage by the Saudis? Yes, sovereign immunity, I get it. You know, we understand that. You know, that's a legal concept, and it's to serve and protect certain things. And it can be effective and useful. But it's not absolute.

PERINO: Right.

WILLIAMS: And what is wrong with asking questions and doing a little further investigation? And I was very dissatisfied.

GUILFOYLE: They know the answers.

WILLIAMS: I think they do know the answers, but the answers were so narrowly tailored. Right, K.G.?


WILLIAMS: It wasn't senior leadership.

KILMEADE: The royal family is huge. So the royal family, at the higher levels, would be a close ally of ours. But there might be some portions of them that saw eye-to-eye with the terrorists.

WILLIAMS: I'm not -- and I'm not suggesting we (UNINTELLIGIBLE), but again, it definitely needs to...

GUILFOYLE: Yes. Virulent forms of, you know, Islam that they support and that actually funded terrorism.

BOLLING: Can I just throw in a very quick thought? Why don't we just open up these 28 pages? And we're not necessarily passed the bill to allow these...

PERINO: It's in Congress for some time.

BOLLING: ... this is one step at a time?

KILMEADE: There couldn't be more international signals for a wrap than I'm getting right now. I'm getting all types of signals.

PERINO: I just want to say the president of the United States, even if there is -- even if every member of Congress voted to pass and he still has call to, whether he...


PERINO: If he thinks it's important for national security...

GUILFOYLE: Relock it.

PERINO: ... and to not release it, then he should not release it.

KILMEADE: Right. Last time it passed the Republican Senate, and now it got stopped in the Republican house. That's what happened in December. Let's see what happens now.

All right. Everyone, hold your thoughts. Please score it at home.

Holy hypocrisy, Batman. George Clooney slams the obscene amount of money in politics the same weekend that he raises an obscene amount of money for politics. Hillary Clinton, by the way, and other Democrats. Clooney, yes, he played Batman, next.


WILLIAMS: Well, if you want to eat dinner with George Clooney, it's going to cost you. It's going to cost you a lot, about $350,000. That's how much people are willing to pay to attend two fund-raisers this weekend sponsored by the Hollywood heavyweight, along with Hillary Clinton.

But even Clooney admits that that kind of money in politics is over the top.

So K.G., I have to ask you. He says, you know, "It's so despicable that we do this, bit yet I'm doing it." Are you buying any part of this?

GUILFOYLE: No, and I wouldn't pay that. I ate with him for free. Yes, I think it's pretty outrageous, to be honest with you. That's such an obscene amount of money. So how can you actually have any kind of credibility when you're say, "Oh, it's an obscene amount of money in politics." But look what you're charging. Look at the ticket for your end.

I get that he's all in on her. I get that he wants to raise money. I also get that Bernie Sanders has been outpacing her financially for quite some time. He's the new one-percenter of fund-raising, because he's making money so fast, he doesn't even know what to do with it.

WILLIAMS: Like Obama did in '08. You're right.

How about it, though, Eric? I think Chuck Todd raises, I think, a very fair question, which is when people are paying $350,000 to sit down with you, are they buying influence?

BOLLING: Well, yes. They always are buying influence. That's the name of the game.

GUILFOYLE: And access.

BOLLING: And access. That's the way the political game works in America. I mean, think about even all the way down to the senators, congress people, local politicians, same thing.

I think it's funny, though, that George Clooney, who is doing a fund-raiser for Hillary, makes Bernie Sanders's case on -- on a weekend show. That was fantastic.

The best thing of the weekend, though, regarding money, did you see when they were driving into this fund-raiser...


BOLLING: ... and they were throwing the dollar bills.

KILMEADE: They were real dollars.

BOLLING: Real money: 1,000 singles were thrown at the motorcade as they came by.

WILLIAMS: How about that, though, Dana, right? One of Clooney's defenses, he says the Clinton campaign is not effectively making this point. This money is not actually for Hillary Clinton. It's for the down ticket. Right?

PERINO: There's something to be said for that. The presidential election is on the line, but so is who controls the Senate and the House. And don't forget that Hillary Clinton is in a delegate fight. Well, she wants to keep all of her super delegates. Part of the way that you do that is you figure out a way to help those down tickets. That means that whoever is running for Congress or Senate or even there's 32 gubernatorial races. So she's not being necessarily greedy with the money. She's doling it out. It should be interesting.

WILLIAMS: So let's talk about what's really important here, and that is hype. So we have a soundbite right here where Clooney talks about his first time meeting Trump.


CHUCK TODD, HOST, NBC'S "MEET THE PRESS": You've minced no words about your feelings about Donald Trump. I think you called him a xenophobic fascist. I hope I'm quoting you correctly.

CLOONEY: I think you're pretty close.

TODD: OK. Fair enough. What have your interactions been with him? You ever had any personal interaction with him?

CLOONEY: I met him once. I was sitting down at a table. He was nice. And then -- we talked a couple of times, I think. And then he went on Larry King and told everybody I was very short. I just said, "I met you sitting down."


WILLIAMS: Defensive much? Look, apparently, George Clooney -- I did my research -- listed at 5' 11." Is that short? Or is that a lie? Or is that just...

PERINO: And I'm 5'2".

KILMEADE: I don't know what to -- I don't know what to believe anymore.

WILLIAMS: Lying Clooney.

KILMEADE: I thought it was very funny. He said he went over and talked to the protesters, because he felt kind of guilty, because he's doing this. And they said, "You were a terrible Batman." He goes, "Guilty."

I will say this. He's a guy of action.


KILMEADE: He does some great work in Sudan. He believes in his causes.

GUILFOYLE: Very nice.

KILMEADE: Understands he's dealt with a lot of positive things in his life and wants to give back. You know, I also think that he would be full board behind Bernie Sanders if Sanders gets the nomination. He has no problem with socialism.

WILLIAMS: Yes. He's got a big old political (ph) house.

GUILFOYLE: And he married well.

WILLIAMS: And he married up, some would say.

BOLLING: Taller.

GUILFOYLE: Smart. Educated.

WILLIAMS: And taller.

"One More Thing" is up next.


PERINO: It's time now for your favorite segment, "One More Thing" -- Eric.

BOLLING: This morning, I'm coming into work, and my friend Rob Monaco said, "Hey, Bernie Sanders is over at Evergreen Deli. Why don't you go check it out?"

So I went over there and I waited for him. Watch what happened.


BOLLING: Senator? Senator?

Thank you.


BOLLING: So I felt the Bern.

PERINO: Did he write on the back, "We'd love to have you on the show"?

BOLLING: I did. I said, "Senator, would you come and sit on 'The Five'? We'd love to have you on 'The Five'." And he's going to walk away, but I forced him into taking it.

So Senator, the reason why I'm bringing this up is, if you want to come on "The Five," we'd love to have you. Or if you prefer, maybe you would like to come tonight to our girl right here, our cover girl, Kimberly, who is now going to grace the cover of "25A" magazine. Check this out. Senator, if you want to go to the party, there's a party tonight. Call us and you can come see us. Show the pictures from the inside the magazine.

KILMEADE: That is awesome.

GUILFOYLE: Hug it out.

BOLLING: Kimberly Guilfoyle. Congratulations.

KILMEADE: Look at you.

GUILFOYLE: Thank you. Looking forward to celebrating tonight.

I just quick want to thank Jo-Jo and Michelle, our fantastic hair and make- up team here on "The Five," that made me feel and look extra special that day. And the writer, Jennifer Pelaez; the photographer, very talented, Cam Camarena; Chase Backer, the publisher; and the editor-in-chief, Christopher Pape. We'll see you all there tonight.

PERINO: And you get to keep going to do "One More Thing."

WILLIAMS: I do. Thank you, indeed, Ms. Perino.

So this is very cute, something a little light. Well, this is a little boy. Speaking of Batman and Clooney, he just couldn't take the heat after getting caught red-handed. OK, he was drawing all over his mom's mirror with lipstick. And here's what happened.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who drew on Mommy's mirror?









GUILFOYLE: So cute. That's so cute. Blame it on Batman. Right? Not Superman. It's always Batman. But was it Clooney or Ben Affleck Batman?

KILMEADE: That is phenomenal.

PERINO: Well, we started the show talking about tax day. And now I've got a little tip for you, because our colleague, Gerri Willis, has just written a new book. It is called "Rich is Not a Four-Letter Word." Love this, "Rich is Not a Four-Letter Word."


PERINO: And the subtitle, "How to Survive Obamacare, Trump, Wall Street, Kickstart Your Retirement and Achieve Financial Success." You're right. It is a four-letter word, technically. But you get the joke.

BOLLING: It's great.

PERINO: It's not a bad thing to be. There's a lot of practical tips in here. I read it a couple months ago, and I highly recommend it, especially after today when you want to have a better tax day next year.

KILMEADE: And teach you how to be proud of being successful.

GUILFOYLE: Yes, right.

PERINO: You get to go next.

KILMEADE: All right. Thanks. I thank myself for saying that.

In Texas, sadly, there's a huge flood. It's unbelievable. Rain. People got up and they found out everything was flooded; the roads were swamped. And then all of a sudden, we look at KTKR-TV and see this story. Watch Steve Canvas (ph), the reporter.


STEVE CANVAS, KTRK-TV REPORTER: Leave the car. Swim. Sir, sir, sir. Come here. Are you OK, sir?


CANVAS: You're OK. Did you just not think the water was that deep?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, I didn't think the water was that deep. My car was under.

CANVAS: Your car, you've got to leave the car.


KILMEADE: Thirty seconds after he got out, on the urging of the reporter who told him to get out. He was frozen; he was panicked; he was catatonic. He convinced him to get out. He didn't even know to swim. He was going to keep walking, and then he went under, and the car goes down. He would have died.

BOLLING: That reporter made him get out of the car. He didn't want to get out of the car.

GUILFOYLE: What a hero. What a hero.

PERINO: All right. Eboni.

GUILFOYLE: See, journalists are good.

WILLIAMS: They are.

I had an amazing weekend. I had the esteemed privilege of being the emcee for the 40th anniversary gala for the Association of Black Women Attorneys. We honored congresswomen and judges. I mean, it was just a gorgeous evening. The thing I share with the young ladies that were scholarship recipients were, you know, the credibility that comes with being a lawyer, can't beat it.

PERINO: Congratulations. Everyone had a good weekend. We're glad to be back. Thank you -- thank you, Monday mouth. We hope you join us tomorrow on "The Five." We have a special outside edition for you tomorrow.

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