Rubio gives his take on Syria; Fiorina says she's starting to scare liberals

2016 GOP candidate talks strategy that's moving him up in polls on 'The Kelly File'


This is a rush transcript from "The Kelly File," October 5, 2015. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

MEGYN KELLY, HOST: Breaking tonight, three new polls showing big moves in the Republican field. And for the first time in three months, one national poll showing a new man on top.

Welcome to "The Kelly File," everyone. I'm Megyn Kelly. Brand new polling out tonight from Investor's Business Daily has Dr. Ben Carson in first place at 24 percent in a national survey. Only the second time Carson has ever been on top, and the first time someone has bested Donald Trump since early July. A dive by NBC News and The Wall Street Journal into New Hampshire also shows an increasingly competitive field. Trump remains in first place, but Carly Fiorina has surged ten points and taken second in what is now a much tighter line-up.

And Jeb Bush is in third there. Neck and neck with Senator Rubio. In Iowa, the Republicans there tell the same story. A major tightening between the top-tier contenders. Trump holds on to his lead but it narrows with the number of candidates gaining New Hawkeye State support since September. Again, the latest surge, the largest surge is from Fiorina, but you can see Carson is still in second position there, five points behind Trump in Iowa. We have two republican presidential candidates here tonight, including Carly Fiorina, the woman now surging, and Senator Marco Rubio who was also showing new strength.

But we begin tonight with Fox News digital politics editor Chris Stirewalt and host of "MediaBuzz" here on Fox Howie Kurtz. Good to see you both.


KELLY: So, Investor's Business Daily. I always go by Dana Blanto who runs our polling division. She tells us whether this is a legitimate poll or not a legitimate poll. She says this one is okay, we can cite it. This is the first time we've seen Trump in anything but the top position in months. What do you make of it?

STIREWALT: Well, look, when Donald Trump came into the race, people said he's not for real, this isn't going to work. Boom! He shoots at the top, he stays stable. Ben Carson gets sort of drowned out. Now, I'm sure that for many in the republican establishment, they would prefer that the person surging in this poll was not Ben Carson, because he's not exactly their idea. But here's what it demonstrates. Outsider year, Ben Carson has got a momentum and an energy to this campaign that defies so much of what has been defined and what has been written about. What we are supposed to see, what is supposed to happen? And, you know, it's sort of to this point where you have to say, let's see where this goes.

KELLY: What has happened Howie do you think for Trump, he's still obviously the front-runner in every other poll. But he had 30.5 percent on September 19th. He had 30 percent in the national polling. And now he's fallen considerably in this poll. What do you make of it?

HOWARD KURTZ, HOST, "MEDIABUZZ": I think that national poll may be a bit of an outlier, but no question the race is tying, there was simply no way that Donald Trump was going to be able to continue to dominate every poll and every minute of every campaign conversation every day. And so what's happened is that, some of the novelty factor may have worn off with Trump, cable news gets live every time he clears his throat.  And so then you have Carly Fiorina and Ben Carson and the only practicing card carrying politician in the bunch, Marco Rubio now grabbing more of the media oxygen, becoming better known but also that means they're going to be getting tougher scrutiny.

KELLY: By the way, Chris, with all due respect to Dana, they only polled in this poll, 377 registered voters. They are Republicans or registered independents who mean Republican. Is that enough?

STIREWALT: I mean, it's a poll. It's a data point. As Howie points out this could be an outlier, this could be a prediction of things to come.  But when we couple it with other national polls, when we couple it with what you just showed in New Hampshire, what you showed in Iowa, this race is shifting. So after a long period of stasis in which it was Trump and everybody else, we are starting to see the stratification, we are starting to see the diminution of Trump, we're starting to see this emerge.

KELLY: So, what does Trump do at this point? What does he do because he has almost 100 percent name recognition? I mean, find me a person who doesn't know Donald Trump.

STIREWALT: He did flip at once. At the beginning he came in the race, he was 60/30. The Republicans said, we don't like him, 60 percent, 30 percent said, we think he's okay. He flipped it. It was astonishing.  Over time he's given a lot, not a lot but he's given a substantial amount of that back. Now, whether or not he can -- he has two choices. He's either going to go back into reruns, he'll start a feud, he'll go on Twitter, he'll say this, that, the other thing. He'll go crazy and hope that he can get more attention, more media coverage of the media coverage.  Or he's going to keep doing what he started to do, what he's shown some signs of doing.

Build out organizations. Reach into his own pocket, spend the money that it will take to build a real campaign, so that when he suffers the fall to earth that every candidate suffers, when it hurts that he'll be able to bounce back like Marco Rubio, like other candidates have done that have gone through lean times. But have had the organization and the fortitude to get back.

KELLY: What do you make Howie of the fact that, okay, Carly Fiorina is surging, but she's at eight percent. Right? So, I mean, it's like Trump has got what triples her numbers in Iowa. So it's nice to surge, but it's better if you can have triple the numbers, right? I mean, so it's like -- how does she translate her surge into actual winning?

KURTZ: Well, considering where she started from, where she was an asterisks in this race and couldn't even get into the first primetime debate, I mean, she has made tremendous progress. But let's not lose sight of the fact that not only is Trump still on top, except in that one poll, but what counts here are the state by state polls. And so, he knew he's got a five-point lead in Iowa and New Hampshire. If Donald Trump wins those first two states, there will be an explosion, which will mean it will be very hard to catch. And one last point, that is, a lot of the skeptics and Trump disparagers say, he's recently said, well, you know, if my poll numbers collapse, you know, I'll go back to my business and they are saying, ahah, he was never serious. He's done in it for long haul. All he's doing is being candid.

KELLY: Right. Right.

KURTZ: All the candidates will never say that until they're about to get out of the race.

KELLY: He said, if I'm defeated, I'll admit defeat and I'll get out.


Unlike these other people really polling it zero and refuse to get out.


They're polling it zero, zero. Let me ask you before I let you go.  This is important Stirewalt. Do you agree with Howie on that? Because we always look at the national polling but it really comes down to first Iowa, then New Hampshire, then South Carolina. Can you win the republican nomination if you don't win one of those?

STIREWALT: No, you have to win an early state.

KELLY: You do?

STIREWALT: You do. So you have February and then March. March is a goat roping. Anything can happen in March. It's crazy. You have early primaries, then you have FEC primary, you have super-duper Tuesday. March is crazy. But February is when it's clear, open field running. You've got three big ones. You go Iowa, you go New Hampshire, you go South Carolina.  If you don't have a win in one of those states, you do not have a calling card to get into the next round. Because this will end up being a two or maybe three but probably two person race going down the stretch. If you don't have a February win, you ain't showing up in that.  

KELLY: When are we going to know, Stirewalt? When are we going to know? Like, by Easter where we know?

STIREWALT: Well, what if there was a debate, what if we could have the FOX News Channel do a debate in like, I don't know, late January let's say right before the Iowa caucuses. That might be hallucinating.

KELLY: Exciting. We have not yet began to get those questions together. But that sounded like a hints.  


I think I'm going to get a call tomorrow. Great to see you both.

STIREWALT: Bye. Same here, Megyn.

KELLY: Well, as Carly Fiorina has climbed in these polls, she's getting a lot more scrutiny. Wait until you see what we just saw on another channel.

And tonight, we will ask her about a controversial new report that goes right to the heart of her reputation.

Plus, breaking news tonight on the Russian military buildup in the Middle East. With new evidence that Russian soldiers and heavy artillery now streaming into Syria.

Colonel Tony Shaffer and Pete Hegseth are next on that. And then Florida Senator and presidential candidate Marco Rubio will explain why he thinks the U.S. could be heading for a second cold war with Russia. And whether a popular TV show just turned up the pressure on President Obama's Middle East policy.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm asking, is our strategy working?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tell him what the strategy is, I'll tell you if it's working.


KELLY: Breaking tonight. New evidence that Russia is taking its military campaign in the Mideast to a dangerous new level. The Kremlin not only increased the number of air strikes over the weekend, but reports suggest that Russian ground troops are now streaming into Syria, as well.  And it is not just troops crossing the border. These BM30 rocket launcher systems are considered extremely accurate and extremely lethal and four of them are now in Syria under Russian control. Russia has been insisting that a large ground offensive is not likely, one U.S. official told FOX News, quote, "You don't bring that kind of stuff unless you plan to use it."

Colonel Tony Shaffer is a retired CIA trained Intel operative and a senior fellow at the London Center for Policy Research. And Pete Hegseth is a FOX News contributor and an Iraq and Afghanistan combat war veteran.  Good to see you both.


KELLY: Let me start with you, Colonel on this.


KELLY: What we've seen now in terms of the Russian effort is similar to what we saw last week. We'll put the map on the board from the Institute for the Study of War where you can see the targets. Here's what you need to know folks. See that yellow area? That's controlled by the rebels. That's where all the little red airstrikes are, all the strikes are mostly in that rebel controlled area. See the green? That is controlled by ISIS. Two. Two efforts there. Everything else has been focused on the rebels. So the thought, Tony, Colonel, is that, you know, they did a couple for good measure, but they're focused on getting those rebels out of there to prop up Assad. Why do we care? What is that mean to us?

SHAFFER: Well, two things. First, we have to care. Ungoverned space is what ISIS has thrived in. So as much as it may be disdainful to the President, and he acts like a petulant child because Putin all of a sudden is going against his best laid plans, they need to stabilize Syria. That isn't our interests. With that said, let us not be fooled for a minute.  Putin is doing this for Putin's own interests. If you will, I think it's almost a Damascus pact. This is bringing back the old Warsaw pact. And yes, Megyn, absolutely. Whatever he is bringing, he's going to use. Plus, he's got his pets nest on the ground, which I've been talked about. Plus, he has got electronic warfare units which we're moving in to do the counter messaging and counter propaganda. They are dead serious about going in and doing frankly some of the things we should have done a year ago.

KELLY: So, he's going to have -- Putin is basically going to have control essentially of Syria soon and we're not. We're being forced out of the Middle East, which is the thing that seems to concerns most analysts, Pete, that it's not just our adversaries, somebody who is an adversary, in the eyes of many is gaining more power and we're losing it.

HEGSETH: Yes. And we have a president who says our interests somehow overlap with President Putin and he wants to work with him, when our goals are fundamentally misaligned, we have a president whose strategy is to hope, is to hope that Putin gets stuck in a quagmire, hope that ISIS is beaten back and they fall into the weight of themselves. Hope that the rebels make advances. Hope that Assad doesn't maintain control with no chips on the table. No ability to affect, with the rebels training program that is not only not effective, but effectively handing weapons over to the bad guys. We are literally completely honored, he's not only leading from behind, not leading at all.

And Putin is taking advantage to reassert Russia's influence in that region which we haven't seen for over 40 years. We're seeing a geopolitical shift in power being undertake, so it's not necessarily that Putin is strong, but he's seizing the mantel of international leadership and in some ways, legitimacy because of he's able to project with troops on the ground, he is going to affect the outcome there much more than we are right just because he has got the guys on the ground with the boots.

KELLY: Colonel, you've spoken with people at the Pentagon. I mean, it's not all bad, is it? Russia has taken out some ISIS.

SHAFFER: Well, that's the issue. I mean, look, General Dunford said in his hearings, the new chairman of the Joint Chief said, Russia is our biggest threat on the planet. I agree with General Dunford on this completely. With that said, we have to recognize that we have been completely ineffective. And this is, Megyn, we broke this story about two weeks ago. One of the categories of intelligence that Centcom has been fudging is the targeting. Some of the targets Assad -- some of the targets that Putin has taken out are the ones our intelligence analysts recommended and were vetoed by the White House.


SHAFFER: So let me be very clear, as much as this is bad by the fact that Putin is going both ways, taking out the people we've trained as well as the ISIS guys, his job as he sees it is to stabilize an ally. His job is to do what allies do with allies and stabilize Assad. So, we'll going to be sitting here on the side as Pete says, kind of like scratching our head, what do we do next and we're going to have to be concerned about two years from now when Putin is the one sitting in Egypt, what President el- Sisi saying, hey, we're your best friend. We need to be concerned about this.

KELLY: Uh-mm. Because people look at this situation and say, well, Syria, it's not exactly like we were BFFs with them. So, if it's going, you know, to hell in a hand basket, why should the American people get that concerned? There are real reasons for them to.

HEGSETH: Well, there are very real reason for them too. If we're not involved, we're not leaving somebody else is. And in this case it is Vladimir Putin and Vladimir Putin doesn't care what we think, doesn't want a strong America. And the access of America, Iran, a Shia led Iraq at this point, and Russia, and Syria, that's a bad axis that doesn't have our interests in mind, doesn't want -- certainly the things that we believe in, and they're just going to spread that influence. And ISIS is taking advantage of that. They're okay with ISIS being where it is, because ISIS, if they can beat back the rebels and maintain Assad's legitimacy and power there, they have got a balance of power with ISIS kind of doing its thing that they're okay with and that in no way is okay for us.

KELLY: I'm glad they took that video down, because I was downright terrifying, I don't know where we are watching, but it was freaking me out.  Colonel, I'll give you the last word --


KELLY: -- on the implications here and what the United States needs to do in your view.

SHAFFER: Win. I mean, come on, we have the greatest military on the face of the earth. We have chosen to not even half-step. We have chosen to basically allow for this situation to develop. President Obama got caught with his pants down. That's why I think he looks so frustrated the other day. He's been playing both ends against the middle. He wants ISIS to destabilize Assad so Assad will fall, while at the same time he's trying to do things to destroy ISIS so it doesn't get out of control. He can't have it both ways. You have to figure out what we're going to do first, what are specifics objectives they're going to be and we have to do it, he's not willing to do that.

KELLY: Do you think he was trying to bide his time and, you know, see what happens between Assad's people and ISIS before the U.S. did anything significant?

SHAFFER: I think -- Megyn, we are now the junior varsity, bottom- line.  

HEGSETH: Yes, that's right. He still holds --

KELLY: We're now the junior varsity?

HEGSETH: Yes. He still hopes he can sit talk down to talk with Vladimir Putin and figure it out.

SHAFFER: That's right. That's right.

HEGSETH: Yes, we are.

SHAFFER: We're being played.

KELLY: Wow! That's depressing. Great to see you both.

HEGSETH: Thank you.

SHAFFER: Thank you.

KELLY: So there was a junior varsity all along, just wasn't ISIS.

Well, Senator Marco Rubio got a lot of attention this week and after suggesting the United States and Russia may be headed for another cold war.  He'll join us next on that and we'll talk about how the Islamic State is preparing for something called "End times."

Plus, some media outlets have now launched a full offensive on Carly Fiorina. Wait until you see what just aired on one channel a short time ago. We'll speak with her about that and one report in particular that goes right to the heart of her reputation.


CARLY FIORINA, R- PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Politics is sometimes a fact free zone, you know? People just say whatever they want to say. But a publicly traded business is not. And so the facts of my record are very clear.




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are we really getting anywhere in Syria?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just said yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You said a program should be renewed. I'm asking is our strategy working.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What strategy? Tell me what the strategy is, I'll tell you if it's working.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: See, right there is the problem, because they -- they have a strategy. They're gathering right now in Raqqa by the tens of thousands, hidden in the civilian population. Cleaning their weapons. And they know exactly why they're there.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They call it the end times. What do you think the beheadings are about? The crucifixions in Deir Hafer? The revival of slavery? You think they make (bleep) up? It's all in the book. Their (bleep) book. The only book they ever read. They read all the time. They never stopped. They're there for one reason and one reason only. To die for the caliphate and usher in a world without infidels. That's their strategy. And it's been that way since the 7th Century. So do you really think that a few Special Forces teams are going to put a dent in that?


KELLY: That was the scene from last night's premiere of the Showtime hit series "Homeland" where a CIA agent was being debriefed on his experience during a tour of duty in Syria. And in that one powerful scene, the producers captured the question that could shape events in the Middle East for a long time to come.

Florida Senator Marco Rubio has been hammering this issue in 2016 bid for the White House. He is now warning that Russia's latest military moves in the Mideast could produce a new cold war.


KELLY: Senator, good to see you.


KELLY: That's the question many have been asking which is what is our strategy in Syria?

RUBIO: There isn't one. And part of the problem early on, as I had said when this first started, these Islamic terrorists groups, these Jihadists groups, they need a vacuum, they need an operating space in order to organize and grow. And that's why they're in Libya now, that's why they used Afghanistan before. And when this uprising happened in Syria, which was initially started by Syrians, not by radical jihadists.

KELLY: There was a time where the good versus evil aspect of this was much clearer. Assad was the bad guy and there were some good people who wanted better lives.

RUBIO: There were every day Syrians that were rebelling. There were military defectors that wanted to fight against Assad lives. We didn't engage at that point. This administration then. And then that created this open space and this radical jihadists flowed there. And it's not just ISIS -- it's actually chilling to see that clip you just played. Because in fact, ISIS believes in this prophetic vision that they're going to draw in western forces on the ground in northern Syria where there's going to be this apocalyptic showdown between the west and them and that ultimately it will usher in a world in which everyone lives under their version of Islam.

KELLY: So, why is that not an argument to support President Obama's strategy of staying out of there?

RUBIO: Well, because the bottom-line is, a couple of points. Number one, we wanted to empower people on the ground that were already there to fight against them before they even showed up.

KELLY: Uh-hm.

RUBIO: Now that they're there, they're going to have to be confronted on the ground. And my argument is that Sunnis themselves are going to have to fight them on the ground and we need to help them with air support and logistical support.

KELLY: You want to get folks in the surrounding areas to go in there and will support them with air strikes.

RUBIO: Absolutely. But ultimately, this is a battle for the future of Sunni-Islam, and Sunni-Muslims themselves, must defeat them both ideologically but also militarily on the ground. They're not going to stop in Syria. Their goal is to move into Saudi Arabia and topple the kingdom and do the same in Jordan and do the same in Lebanon. Their goals are well beyond simply Syria and Iraq.

KELLY: Uh-mm. But what we know now is that Russia is not really targeting ISIS. I mean, they kind of say they are, but our intelligence, our military analysts say, intelligence community, no evidence the Russians have struck ISIS targets in Raqqa, their groups defacto headquarters and they've done a couple of it seems like "show strikes" to sort of say, we're going after ISIS. So, what we're going to be left with that the U.S. does nothing, is a stronger, more powerful Bashar Assad. What does that mean?

RUBIO: Yes. And this is part of a very cunning strategy on the part of Putin. What he's saying is I'm going to destroy all the non-ISIS fighters and then I'm going to turn to the world and say, okay, guys, the only two people left fighting in Syria are ISIS and Assad. We're on Assad's side, whose side are you on? He wants to eliminate any other option to toppling Assad.

KELLY: And we're letting him.

RUBIO: Well, and again, not only are we letting him, but we're doing nothing to help those people that on the ground, which is why I said we need to create a safe zone in Syria where the cooperation of our allies.  And that will address three points. Number one, allowing a non-radical Jihadists group to organize and prepare themselves. Number two, to stem some of this flow of migrants that are leaving the region and going into Europe. If they had a place they could stay safely, they wouldn't make that journey. And number three, to ultimately have something in place for a future without Assad.

KELLY: As a practical matter, it's not going to happen. Right?  Barack Obama is not going to do that. It seems clear. What he wants to do is chat some more with the Russians about how in politics their decision was. That doesn't seem to be working out so well. So, what is going to happen now because it looks like what's happening is an alliance between Russia, Iran, Syria, and even potentially Iraq.

RUBIO: Correct.

KELLY: As that solidifies, what does that mean for the United States?

RUBIO: Well, that means that there's going to be an Iranian Shia sphere of influence that will cover Iraq and Syria increasingly -- some of that in Yemen, Bahrain. Obviously Iran is already there in the region --

KELLY: Iran's power is growing every day.

RUBIO: Absolutely. And that's what our allies, the Saudis and others look out and say, well, these guys are encircling us. I mean, one of the things that's not being reported is the aid that Iran is now providing some elements within Bahrain, where there's a significant U.S. naval presence.  Also being underreported is ISIS' growth in Afghanistan.

KELLY: So, as a practical matter though, the United States were not directly in the crosshairs yet, but as they grow and as they band together and as Iran gets more and more powerful, where do you see this going for us, for Israel?

RUBIO: Well, a couple of points. They want to drive us from the region. The Iranian goal is ultimately not just become the dominant power in the region, they want to drive the United States completely out of the region. They want no U.S. military presence increasing no U.S. diplomatic presence either. Their goal is to drive us from the region. If they can drive us from the region, they become the most powerful force in the region. These countries become subservient to them. And in addition to that, they can now go after Israel and eradicate it.

KELLY: You know, so many Americans, they are war weary. They say, Syria, I don't even know who to root for. I'm kind of with Barack Obama and Trump on this. Let's stay out of it. Let the Russians deal with it.  I mean, in the simplest of terms --

RUBIO: Right.

KELLY: Why are they wrong?

RUBIO: Two points. Number one is they're not kind of -- just because we ignore Syria doesn't mean Syria is going to ignore us. Many of those foreign fighters are now finding their way potentially into Europe, and that means they're just now a skip away from the United States. It's also a place that they use to organize efforts on social media and other ways to recruit Americans here at home to attack us. We are ultimately the big target that they want at the end of the day. They want to target on not just our way of life but ultimately our country by conducting attacks here.  That isn't going to stop because we ignore them. The Russian presence in the region is troubling because they've been out of that region for almost 30 some odd years.

Their return to that region now gives them a defensive capability that for example five years from now, Assad is openly involved in arming Hezbollah. And Hezbollah attacks Americans and we want to strike Hezbollah. We now have to worry that there are Russian assets in there that we may have to take on in order to reach Hezbollah. They almost make them -- it almost makes them immune to U.S. pressure against them and against Iran, as well.

KELLY: Uh-mm. Senator Marco Rubio, thank you for being here.

RUBIO: Thanks for having me on.


KELLY: Well, we showed you the big polling news for Carly Fiorina at the top of the hour. But with more success comes more scrutiny. Up next, she responds to a new series of attacks from her critics in the media.

Plus, a dramatic new plan for gun control in the aftermath of the mass shooting in Oregon. We'll show you Hillary Clinton's new plan to use executive action to change the gun laws.

And Judge Napolitano will join us with a warning on whether she can do this and what it would mean.


HILLARY CLINTON, D-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Ideally, what I would love to see is gun owners, responsible gun owners, hunters form a different organization and take back the Second Amendment from these extremists.  




KELLY: Breaking tonight, as Republican presidential candidate Carly Fiorina moves up in the polls, some media outlets are ramping up the attacks. The focus today -- take your pick, some old campaign debts, how she managed the Fiorina Foundation, what she named her dog -- no. But this is from MSNBC an hour ago.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She's got this money problem. I've seen this reported numerous times over the years. But this -- she's basically stiffed a lot of people. This is from someone who was fired and got a huge golden parachute.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the other thing is these people sat without payment for years until Carly decided she was going to run for president.  She's gone after Donald Trump -- but the bankruptcy code exists.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Another Carly Fiorina operation, which is what you call her mystery foundation.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I found that the Donor Vice Fund that Carly Fiorina uses donated $500,000 to Planned Parenthood from 2011 to 2013.


KELLY: Here now to respond, Republican Presidential Candidate and Former Hewlett-Packard CEO Carly Fiorina, great to see you, Carly. So what does that tell you?

FIORINA: Oh, wow, wow. I don't know even where to start with that jumble. But I think what it tells you honestly, Megyn, is there are a lot of liberals who find me kind of scary right now, because I am doing really well in the polls, and horror of horrors, I am a conservative woman.

KELLY: Uh-huh. Let's just kick through a couple of those so you have the chance to respond. They were speaking about Washington Post piece that was just outraged that you had campaign debt from your Senate 2010 campaign that didn't get paid off by your campaign. And Guy Benson offered an opinion online saying, I remember the Washington Post doing a similar article about Hillary Clinton's failure to pay off her -- oh, wait, no, I don't. But they're very interested in your campaign failure. Having said that, did you not pay off the debt?

FIORINA: No, the debt has been paid off, which of course the Washington Post fails to mention entirely. Facts aren't really what the Washington Post is in to anymore. Remember, it was the Washington Post that gave me three Pinocchio's for claiming I was a secretary. Yes, in fact, I was a secretary. That's how I started. Apparently they don't care about the facts that I paid off the debt. They don't care about revealing that the source of this story was campaign staff for a rival campaign. And no, they never did write that article about Hillary Clinton's debt, 40 times the amount carried over many years. I don't recall Rachel Maddow being outraged about that.

KELLY: What about this ICO Foundation, that apparently is -- that manages your philanthropic fund. They're ticked off that...


FIORINA: Really? The Frank and Carly Fiorina Foundation are funded by our money, and we decide where that money goes. The fact that ICO has some other client that apparently donated to Planned Parenthood, boy, all it would take is five seconds of reporting to figure out that this is a non-issue. But again, I don't think facts are the point here at all. I don't think the Washington Post has a lot of credibility. MSNBC I think speaks for itself.

KELLY: This is obviously going to happen more and more as you rise in the polls, which you are doing. This is you versus Hillary Clinton. Carly Fiorina versus Hillary Clinton, its 52-38 in your favor, in New Hampshire, it's 50-42. So the head-to-head matchups are showing you prevailing. And you've moved up, fourth nationally, second in New Hampshire and third in Iowa according to the latest polls. How do you keep that going? Do you believe it's solely a matter of name recognition at this point for you?

FIORINA: Oh, no. Now we have higher name I.D. than we had even a month ago, which is fantastic. There are still people who don't know I'm running, but I keep working really hard every single day to address the issues specifically.

KELLY: Is it harder for you -- do you think as a conservative woman, it's harder for you, because I was looking at this New York Times article from last week, talking -- this is the quote, "It's so weird, this is somebody who watched the last debate. She looks like one of us, but she's not." This is some woman who doesn't like your stance on Planned Parenthood. I mean, the media, they don't exactly love conservative women.

FIORINA: Well, exactly. That is the point, Megyn. Look, we know that most of the media is very liberal and we know that liberal women have trouble accepting that there are many, many women who don't agree with them. And in fact, it's liberal women unfortunately who believe that unless you follow their orthodoxy, Rachel Maddow is one. But Hillary Clinton is one, as well. She's the one who said about Joni Ernst when she was running for the Senate, she said well, it's not enough to be a woman, you have to be a woman who believes. Then she went through her litany of liberal orthodoxy. Actually note to Democrat Party, we're half the nation.

So our views differ, just like men's views differ, and yes, I think I am distinctly horrifying to liberals, and I am a conservative woman who right now head-to-head beats Hillary Clinton soundly.

KELLY: Carly Fiorina, you've already come a long way from not making the top 10 at that Fox News Debate. Something tells me you'll be there for a while, great to see you.

FIORINA: I intend to be there for quite a while, all the way to the end, Megyn. Thanks for having me.

KELLY: Thanks for being here.

Well, the folks at Dunkin' Donuts are taking heat tonight over how police have been recently treated at the donut chain. What the heck?  That's not a joke. We'll show you why these folks not the only ones caught up in the controversy.

Plus, a significant new call for gun control with Hillary Clinton promising to use executive action to change the duly past gun laws. Judge Napolitano is next.


KELLY: Developing tonight stunned new reaction to a New York column - - to a new column in the New York Daily News calling for the NRA to be labeled a terrorist organization. The Daily News Writer equating the second amendment group with organizations like Al Qaeda, Hamas, and the Taliban. Critics say the NRA clearly doesn't qualify as a terror group, as they are an advocacy group exercising their free speech rights among others. The NRA also came under attack from Democratic President Candidate Hillary Clinton, in the aftermath of the mass murder we saw at an Oregon community college last week. In New Hampshire this afternoon, Mrs. Clinton said as President she would use executive action to change the nation's gun laws.


CLINTON: Now, trying every way I can to get those guns out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them.


KELLY: Here now, Fox News Senior Judicial Analyst Judge Andrew Napolitano. So what does she want to do, Judge, executive action?

JUDGE ANDREW NAPOLITANO, FOX NEWS SENIOR JUDICIAL ANALYST: Yeah, the federal statute that requires gun sellers, people in the business of selling guns to use FBI computers to conduct background checks has an exception in it for an occasional sale. You sell a gun to a neighbor, you give a gun to a nephew, and you're not expected to involve the FBI. She wants to redefine occasional sales to mean all sales. She wants to do this on her own.

KELLY: This is not something that hasn't been debated by the populous. The populous is not behind it. They are in the polls but when they push for legislation it never goes through.

NAPOLITANO: This was rejected by the Congress and she wants to enact it as part of an executive order. So here we are. We are 13 months before the presidential election in 2016. She's already said she rejects the two Supreme Court opinions to finding the right to keep and bear arms as a fundamental, personal liberty, and she rejects her obligation -- Congress wants to write it on her own.

KELLY: I thought the Supreme Court ruling was law of the land. Isn't that what they called when they issued the ruling about gay marriage?

NAPOLITANO: I thought when you take an oath as President of the United States to preserve, protect, and defend the constitution that means the constitution as in interpreted by the Supreme Court whether you agree with it or not.

KELLY: Ok. But on the thing about -- let's run the sound bite. This is what she wants to do -- she's ticked off that gun manufacturers can't be sued when someone uses a gun to kill another person. Listen.


CLINTON: The gun industry and gun sellers are the only business in America that is totally free of liability.


NAPOLITANO: She is so, so radically incorrect on that. Look, if you drive a car and get in an automobile accident, the car operates the way it's supposed to. It's not the fault of the manufacturer. If the tire explodes, you sue the manufacturer. If the gun doesn't operate properly, you sue the manufacturer. But the manufacturer of the gun is no more liable for the criminal use of that product than the manufacturer of a car is than when a person speeds down a highway.


KELLY: If you could sue gun manufacturers for gun violence, it would basically shut down the gun manufacturing business.

NAPOLITANO: It would. And it would radically change the concept of holding people libel for their own misdeeds. She wants to hold the gun manufacturers liable for the misdeeds of others. That violates something called due process, a very fundamental principle in the constitution.

KELLY: Do you think she really believes any of this could happen?

NAPOLITANO: No. I think she's saying it because her campaign is sinking, because she wants to get people's attention off of the email scandal and Benghazi, both of which are going to hit her square in the forehead in the next couple of weeks in Washington, D.C., and she's pandering to the left by saying I alone will take care of this thing.

KELLY: I'm going to go through that constitution with a fine tooth comb and number two, done, second amendment gone.

NAPOLITANO: Gone. She would love to do that or she would like to create the impression that she would love to do that to try and pry loose voters from Bernie Sanders.

KELLY: So you're suggesting she's a politician that would say something and not follow through on it.

NAPOLITANO: Have you ever heard of that before?

KELLY: Judge, great to see you.

NAPOLITANO: Thank you.

KELLY: Well, Mrs. Clinton also earned a lot of attention for a late night television appearance that's earning her some rave reviews. She went on Saturday Night Live, played a bar tender across from Kate McKinnon who plays Hillary Clinton. Here's some of that.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm Hillary Rodham Clinton.

CLINTON: Great name. I'm Val. So Hillary, what brings you here tonight?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I needed to blow off some steam. I've had a hard couple of 22 years.

CLINTON: Why, what do you do for a living?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: First, I'm a grandmother. And second, I am a human entrusted with this one green earth.

CLINTON: Oh, I get it. You're a politician.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, and how about you?

CLINTON: Well, me? I'm just an ordinary citizen who believes the keystone pipeline will destroy our environment.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I agree with you there. It did take me a long time to decide that, but I am against it.

CLINTON: You know nothing wrong with taking your time. What's important is getting it right.


KELLY: We've seen Mrs. Clinton doing an increasing amount of these non-traditional media appearances, not all of them have been quite as successful. Here's another example of that.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you consider yourself a feminist?

CLINTON: Yes, absolutely. I thought this was an interview with Lenny Kravitz.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you see the footage where his pants split?

CLINTON: No, I missed that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I mean his stuff fell out.

CLINTON: Do you think I could get that?


CLINTON: I'll look for that.


KELLY: Robert Zimmerman is a Democratic Strategist and Co-Founder of Zimmerman/Eddleson Public Relations, great to see you. I know you're a Hillary fan, but you would agree that some of those were better than other, for example the SNL skit, gold.

ROBERT ZIMMERMAN, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Gold. And some of the others were reaching perhaps a different audience. Let's understand, if you've seen Al Gore do the Macarena, that's uncomfortable.

KELLY: We have that. Let's see what Robert's referring to.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would like to demonstrate to you the Al Gore version of the Macarena. Would you like to see it again?


ZIMMERMAN: Hillary Clinton is Ginger Rogers by comparison. But in all of these clips, I think they're great because ultimately it introduces Hillary Clinton to a whole other generation, and they see the self- deprecating humor.

KELLY: She has a healthy sense of humor. She doesn't show it that often, more so recently.

ZIMMERMAN: I think as the campaign progresses and she's more relaxed in her role as candidate, but that's the important thing. She's introducing herself to another generation. How do the Republicans reach out, with the gang from Duck Dynasty?

KELLY: Jeb Bush went on Jimmy Fallon.

ZIMMERMAN: How did that work for him?

KELLY: I said last week I don't know about the Lena Dunham thing.  Lena Dunham is controversial. She's very raunchy and she took it to a raunchy place with this woman who wants to be the President.

ZIMMERMAN: Look, at the end of the day, Lena Dunham speaks to an enormous audience and millennials and they introduce Hillary...


ZIMMERMAN: It's always important about reaching out to new constituents. Let's remember when President Eisenhower appeared with Abbott and Costello -- that was controversial at the time.


ZIMMERMAN: That's the first time a president ever appeared on pop television. I think it's great, I think it's important for the Democratic Party, for the political institutions to broaden their horizon.

KELLY: What did she think of the "SNL" skit? I know you know her.

ZIMMERMAN: Actually I do. I didn't speak to her about it, but they all loved it. She clearly had a great time with it.

KELLY: Even the bit with Bill Clinton was in there, too. Look it up online.

ZIMMERMAN: It was great to watch, also, frankly, it's great for the process, it's great for people to see her in this honest way and to connect with her in a very warm way.

KELLY: There was also a very funny bit with Donald Trump who is not the real Donald Trump but somebody playing Donald Trump and Melania.

ZIMMERMAN: Melania stole that segment.

KELLY: Which was hilarious -- she was fantastic, Robert, great to see you.

ZIMMERMAN: Good to be with you.

KELLY: It's like a punch line in a search of a joke but not to a lot of officers. That's next.


KELLY: Developing tonight, a series of anti-police incidents getting new attention after a couple of ugly moments at donut shops this weekend.  Not a joke. Trace Gallagher's in our west coast newsroom with the story, Trace?

TRACE GALLAGHER, LOS ANGELES: Megyn, in recent days we've seen a flurry of anti-police sentiment in fast food restaurants, but the truth is it's been going on for more than a year, from Chipotle in New York to Taco Bell in Kansas. At a Dunkin' Donuts in West Hartford, Connecticut, a police officer was in line for coffee when an employee in front of customers said "He didn't get the message, we don't serve cops in here."  The officer walked out and the employee was dragged out by her manager to apologize. Dunkin' Donuts corporate office also issued an apology saying the crew member exhibited poor judgment.

But apparently the same judgment was at work at a Dunkin' Donuts in Rhode Island, where not only was an employee rude to a police officer, the worker wrote, Black Lives Matter on his coffee cup. Here's the Police Union.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Black Lives Matter and posting stuff like this against our offices is unacceptable. We're seeing the trend of this organization which is anti-police. They're condoning violence against police.


GALLAGHER: Well, that Dunkin' Donuts also apologized so did an Arby's in Florida after one of their employees denied service to a female officer, because she "was a cop." In that case the Police Union did not accept the apology but called for a national boycott. Then the two cops that walked into a Whataburger in Texas and were told flat-out, we don't serve police officers. The officer left, Whataburger fired the employee for what it called an isolated incident. But to police around the country, it doesn't feel very isolated, Megyn.

KELLY: Can you imagine if the cops turned around and said we don't serve your organization either. How does that work out? Trace, good to see you. We'll be right back.


KELLY: So what did you think of "SNL" and that Hillary Clinton bit?  Was it funny and did it change your opinion of Hillary at all? Maybe you weren't the target audience. Maybe it was kids. Go to, follow me on twitter @MegynKelly, and let me know what you think. Thanks for watching. This is "The Kelly File."

Content and Programming Copyright 2015 Fox News Network, LLC. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Copyright 2015 CQ-Roll Call, Inc. All materials herein are protected by United States copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed, transmitted, displayed, published or broadcast without the prior written permission of CQ-Roll Call. You may not alter or remove any trademark, copyright or other notice from copies of the content.