This is a rush transcript from "The Five," May 11, 2015. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
KIMBERLY GUILFOYLE, CO-HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Kimberly Guilfoyle along with Julie Roginsky, Eric Bolling, Dana Perino and Greg Gutfeld. It's 5 o'clock in New York City and this is "The Five."
Tonight, an exclusive wide-ranging interview with Jeb Bush, you will only see on Fox News. Megyn Kelly sat down with the 2016 presidential contender and asked him where he stands on immigration, foreign policy, policing in America and more. Here's a sneak peak of Jeb, addressing whether he can beat Hillary Clinton.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MEGYN KELLY, HOST, "THE KELLY FILE": Many conservatives look at your potential candidacy and say, I like him as a man and as even as a politician, but he is the worst possible candidate to put up against Hillary Clinton, because you cannot press one of her biggest downsides, namely that the Clintons are history, that, that name is history, her candidacy feels old and that the country needs a fresh start. Do they have a point?
JEB BUSH, FORMER GOVERNOR OF FLORIDA: Megyn, I haven't been in Washington over the last -- ever. I'm not part of Washington. I got to serve as governor of a state, a purple state and I was the most successful conservative governor probably, during the time that I was there. I can tell that story and I can offer ideas that are about the future, not the past. And I'm energetic and passionate about the needs -- the things we need to fix. I don't feel old, I don't feel like yesterday's news and I'm not --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GUILFOYLE: The full interview with Bush is tonight on The Kelly File at 9:00 p.m. Eastern. And with us now, to tell us more about it is the one, the only, Megyn Kelly herself. Thanks for joining us tonight, Megyn. You like some intro?
KELLY: Thank you. I like the sexy voice.
GREG GUTFELD, CO-HOST: Yeah, what happened? What did you do this weekend?
KELLY: All right. Just keep talking.
GUILFOYLE: She rocks that sometimes too, you know. It happens to us. So this was a powerful interview, a sit down one-on-one. A lot of issues were covered, talk about this first, the importance of whether he can beat. Is he the one to go up against Hillary Clinton?
KELLY: You know, half of the interview is substantive and half of it I think is sizing the person up. Like sitting across from this person and saying, does he have it? Could, could he do it? --
JULIE ROGINSKY, GUEST CO-HOST: Yeah.
KELLY: Could he be the guy? Regardless of your political -- you know, inclination, she deserves -- it's a chance to size them up. And I have to say, in my opinion, as a reporter, this is the most presidential he has appeared. I've seen him at CPAC. I've seen him in lots of -- you know, online forums and seen him give other interviews. To me, Jeb Bush is hitting his stride. He was the most composed, the most endpoint, the most in control, I've seen him in an interview yet. And it's not because I wasn't asking him tough questions, I was -- almost every question was tough. But he sat there, he took them, hello, Hillary, he talked to me and took questions from a real-live reporter -- to his credit, right? Because it's not like I have some reputation for going easy on the GOP. He know he's gonna have tough questions. And we covered all of the potential weakness in his candidacy from immigration to Common Core to his -- you know brother to the Iraq war and whether he -- you know, where he stands on that and so on and answer them. So overall, in terms of presentation, I thought he was very strong.
GUILFOYLE: All right. Dana?
DANA PERINO, CO-HOST: I was curious about -- I think some people think he might be a great president, but he might not be a great candidate, right? So they say, how is he going to measure up against her, how he go (ph) against the machine, does he have enough energy, like is he excited enough? Did you guys talk about that at all?
KELLY: Well, we talked about -- you know, whether he can get it done, given his positions on some of these issues that are important to, in particular, the right wing of the Republican Party. And, you know, you'll hear more about his philosophy on tonight but the -- sum and substance is, he's standing by what he believes and he is holding that up as a reason to vote for him, even if you don't agree with him on these issues saying, I'm not going to flip-flop around just to get votes. And let's face it. We know that these candidates do that. There was -- I mean, like from the last election to this election, you would believe that all of these candidates have the legitimate -- you know, they saw the light. I mean, we know -- look at Obama, President Obama. Axelrod admitted that he lied about his position on gay marriage and only when he felt that it was politically OK. Could he come out there and say what was true --
PERINO: Well then, in one week Hillary Clinton -- in one week, Hillary Clinton flip-flopped on trade, immigration and crime.
KELLY: I know.
PERINO: That's put on record.
KELLY: I mean, in direct flip-flop. So fine, the people who are going to vote for her, they don't care about the flip-flop. But, you know, to his credit, he is saying I'm not going to do that just to win this race.
ROGINSKY: In particular sense, that was a dig at Rubio, because Rubio did flip-flop on immigration --
ROGINSKY: You think everybody? You think he -- does he have --
KELLY: I've been doing the presidential --
KELLY: The presidential candidates on the show this whole past week. I didn't get to one who did never flip-flopped.
ROGINSKY: I know. I get that.
KELLY: I mean they all have had major flip-flops so far.
ROGINSKY: But if you're Bush, you're -- I get the sense, he really tip off (ph) at Rubio. This guy was your prot,g,e allegedly, here comes Marco Rubio. You know, trying to please serve in what you believe is your role, which is a candidate from Florida, didn't you get the sense?
KELLY: I didn't get that sense.
KELLY: I did not get the sense.
KELLY: But although, we did spend a lot of time in the other presidential candidates --
ROGINSKY: You're right.
KELLY: And I think you know, he's been one of those -- you know, Reagan Republicans do not criticize the other Republicans, I don't think that his thing.
ERIC BOLLING, CO-HOST: I wrote on my question was gonna be Rubio. What was his response to Rubio getting in when he said -- Marco said he wasn't going to. A lot of people love Marco Rubio but they're gonna have -- they also love Jeb Bush. They are having a hard time trying to figure out how they gonna -- you know, figure that one out. Is it gonna go to -- are we gonna see Marco Rubio and Jeb Bush --
KELLY: Well, let me tell you.
BOLLING: On a debate stage?
KELLY: I think it comes down to -- you know, Marco Rubio is the fresh face. You know I was asking him about, does the country need a fresh start? You know, are you to -- the Bush family name too old. And that exchange that we just played, goes on and the party say after that is actually more illuminating I think but, you know -- he can't. We only have so many minutes of that.
KELLY: Anyway, so Marco Rubio is sort of fresh face, new person, but he does -- you know TV host and another, another network called him a little boy. I think that's too harsh, but he does project a little -- like neophyte. You know with the drinking of the water, you can tell he get a little nervous. And Jeb Bush projects none of that. You know, he's been around power his whole life, it's clear he's been there before. You know, he's been a governor, a chief executive. So he projects a little bit more in control, but on the issues, Rubio is much more acceptable on a couple of these things to the right-wing of the Republican Party. But I asked Jeb Bush -- Jeb Bush about that to and he has an answer on that.
GUILFOYLE: There you go, Greg?
GUTFELD: I have an analysis and some constructive criticism.
GUILFOYLE: Go ahead.
GUTFELD: My analysis is that Jeb is the opposite of Hillary and that Jeb has substance that is saddled by his name and she has a lack of substance that is actually held by her name. She's famous and he's infamous and I'm not sure if he can overcome that barrier. Maybe I -- because I'm in a media, I see it as a bigger barrier than it really is. But I also think when you're talking about Rubio or you're talking about Bush, that everybody from cruise on, the big problem I see is ideology of the team sport, which tends to cannibalize your allies. So conservatives is now, so in patriotism --
GUTFELD: The same way left-wing it seem is. So if somebody it seems right enough, they will be pick apart. But if you -- if you tick every right wing box, you will be cuddled. And I think that's where bush is going to run into problems.
KELLY: Well, what's gonna happened -- you know, look what happened to Romney the last time. You know he was forced to run to the right and there was so many of those GOP presidential debates. And he just got pummeled to the point where he went far right and some of the issues, which the based love, it said, yeah, he's our guy. And when then when he got up in -- you know, their election, the people who are in the middle said, what? You know, you're going to make it so awful in the country the people are going to self-support? Huh? And Jeb Bush takes that on. That may not be an issue that is going to play well with a lot of Republicans, although he has different views. He actually thinks that these that she's gonna play quite as badly as some on the right wing of the Republican Party thinks they will.
PERINO: I agree.
KELLY: You thinks that's, that's right?
PERINO: Well, I think that's true about -- even like with Romney, when he was moving to the right to accommodate, it seemed an authentic and that came across, right? So if somebody is an authentic, you can spot it a mile away. So, if you can stay true to yourself, that's the problem for Hillary and maybe others that have had flip-flopping problems.
KELLY: Let me tell you -- you know, they played today, that one of the sound bites that we had on him on Iraq --
GUILFOYLE: That's what I want to get to --
GUILFOYLE: I think that's one of the best questions of the interview, it's a very revealing answer. Let's take a listen and get your reaction.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY: Knowing what we know now, would you have authorized the invasion?
J. BUSH: I would have and so, so would have with Hillary Clinton, just to remind everybody and so would have almost everybody that was confronted with the intelligence they got.
KELLY: You don't think it was a mistake?
J. BUSH: In retrospect, the intelligence that everybody saw, that the world saw -- not just the United States was, was faulty. And in retrospect, once we, once we -- invaded and took out Saddam Hussein, we didn't focus on security first, and the Iraqis in this incredibly in secure environment turned on the United States military, because there was no security for themselves and their families. By the way, guess who thinks that those mistakes took place as well -- George W. Bush.
KELLY: Your brother.
J. BUSH: News flash to the world, if they are trying to find places where is there is a fixed space between me and my brother. This may not be one of those.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GUILFOYLE: Strong statements a lot in there, it's packed in.
KELLY: So the problem in that in that exchange is that I said, knowing what we know now, would you have gone in? And he said, yes, but then answered as though, I -- I didn't say knowing what you know now. And then I tried to clarify by saying, was it a mistake? You don't think it was a mistake and he sort of kept going with that answer.
PERINO: Yeah. He --
KELLY: So, we -- a clarification would be helpful and actually we've asked if he wants to clarify that and, and to offer that up tonight, so if we get that, we'll air that tonight on The Kelly File. But having said that, the next thing I moved on to was his views on President Bush's foreign policy, George W. Bush foreign policy and the so-called Bush doctrine and what critics had to suggested was a desire to export our values and nation build and wait until you hear what he said on that because I, I really think that his answer on that is gonna be the news today, tomorrow.
BOLLING: So you think he, he made a mistake, Megyn, or do you think he didn't hear it or do you think he's so used to that other questions --
KELLY: I think it's easier to ask --
BOLLING: Would you going in to the same questions?
KELLY: I think it's easier to answer the question that he answered, which was, you know, at the time --
BOLLING: Yeah, would you, right?
KELLY: It seemed like the thing to do. So --
PERINO: It's impossible to answer that question if you're answering a reverse hypothetical. So if you're getting prepared for an interview at the candidate, you say, everyone tells you don't answer hypothetical.
PERINO: But a reverse hypothetical it's even like, whoa, OK, how do I --
KELLY: And I can't go answer that right now. Right now I'm confused.
KELLY: I could have asked that.
PERINO: I think he probably answered it -- he probably heard it the other way.
KELLY: And if even, even if he heard me the right way, knowing what you know now, would you have done it? It is tough. I mean, you know, you do have to say, how can I answer that?
PERINO: Yeah. Because there is no --
KELLY: With all respect to all -- I mean, you could say, with all of that blood treasure lost, it -- no.
PERINO: Right. Well, actually 43 (ph) says that in decision points.
PERINO: So -- I mean he kind of -- he maybe could have said (inaudible) --
GUILFOYLE: I think it's a more complete answer. He definitely answered the first part of it and now you've asked for a clarification with respect with the latter --
KELLY: But he's already getting hammered by the right and the left on that answer. But the other thing that people are really gonna be interested I think is, I pressed him hard on Common Core --
KELLY: And, and there's so much said about Common Core and I will say so much of it is wrong. Actually, I took a deep dive --
GUILFOYLE: Yup. Sure.
KELLY: In the Common Core in preparation for this interview. So much of it is wrong.
KELLY: So many people think that social studies and weird lessons in social studies, teaching kids in America are bad, is it the result of Common Core? And it's not. It's not. Common Core does not deal with social studies. It's basically writing and math.
GUILFOYLE: But I sat in on the classes.
GUILFOYLE: I listen to the classroom.
KELLY: But having said that --
KELLY: The math is --
KELLY: I actually look at the bunch of these math questions be -- in preparation for this interview and my head is still hurting.
GUILFOYLE: Yeah, it's true.
KELLY: And I understand the parents' frustration on it and I -- I also understand why we need to do it in the view of governors like Jeb Bush. So we get deep in the Common Core on how he's gonna defend himself on that. And for the first time, we hear how, how he's gonna do it and what he's going to say.
GUILFOYLE: Yeah. You also get into immigration which is a big deal and how he's going to define himself in the primary and in terms of the general election. Hillary Clinton made some strong statements about immigration. Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
J. BUSH: There's got to be a point where we fix the system so that legal immigration is easier than illegal immigration and show respect for people, a kid who might have been here for 10 years, that might be a valedictorian of their high school to say, no, no, no you're not allowed to go to college. I just think there's a point past which we are over the line.
KELLY: This is another area where, where folks say, I like Jeb Bush but, how can he ever get through the GOP primary with this position on immigration? You know that there's a Core wing of the party --
J. BUSH: sure.
KELLY: For whom this will be a deal breaker?
J. BUSH: I don't know that. I've been traveling over the last three months and I get a sense that a lot of people can be persuaded, to be honest with you. Do you want people to just bend with the wind? To mirror people's sentiment whoever is in front of you? Oh, yes, I used to be for that, but now I'm for this. Is that the way we want to elect presidents?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GUILFOYLE: What's your take away from his now, his position?
KELLY: I thought that was one of the -- recently, the reason we released that clip is because I thought that was more on a more powerful moments in the interview where he just said, this is who I am and this is what I stand for and there's a long back and forth about immigration. We talked not just about illegal immigration and whether he stands for a path to citizenship or a path to legalization. There's been a real question about that and we get to the bottom of it in his interview, and I challenge him on an alleged position change. But we talked about he supported in-state tuition for the children of illegal immigrants while he was governor of Florida and he supported Driver's licenses for illegal immigrants while he was governor of Florida. And I pressed him on all of that and this I thought was Jeb Bush standing up and saying, deal with it. This, this is who I am and if you don't like it, you don't have to vote for me, but I am not going to say --
GUILFOYLE: You like that?
KELLY: I do because, it's real. And I've been on the receiving edge like the viewers and every here has been on the receiving end of the spin from politicians. Even if they are spinning it to say what you want to hear as a person, it's irritating, because I think it's disrespectful. It's like, I know you're lying. That's bull, you know what. But we are --
PERINO: No. GUILFOYLE: No. We're kidding.
KELLY: But you all - this is Beckel's chair.
KELLY: But you all have to -- you know pretend that you're buying it. So, what you agree with this position you don't, it was like the moment in Jerry Macguire -- honesty.
KELLY: I think. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe he was spinning in the spin but --to me that seems really has --
GUILFOYLE: He was, it worked.
GUTFELD: The problem with the immigration debate, it's probably is the most poisoned and political debate of any issue, because you have this huge voting bloc that everybody says is yours, plus, if you come out for any kind of sense of order in terms of immigration, a line is all that we ask. That is still being translated as you are a big if and you're mean. But I have a question --
GUTFELD: If we're going to end up having a Clinton versus Bush, then we have to bring back Melrose Place. From 1992 -- because that `92
GUTFELD: With Billy Campbell, Allison Parker --
PERINO: He tried that.
GUTFELD: Dr. Michael Mancini.
GUTFELD: The original.
PERINO: Oh, the original --
GUTFELD: The Original. Sydney Andrews, Jake Hanson.
KELLY: I would watch that.
GUTFELD: I would too.
KELLY: Can I say something? So there was a little bit of it there but to your point, sometimes folks who are, where Jeb Bush is on immigration, get hit for demonizing --
KELLY: The Republicans who want a hard line on immigration.
KELLY: And remember Rick Perry --
KELLY: If you don't believe in in-state tuition, you don't have a heart.
KELLY: I think Jeb Bush may receive some of that criticism after people see this interview tonight, because the same way he defended his own position, he really didn't seem to have a ton of tolerance for the --
ROGINSKY: But he is not out of the mainstream with the Republican Party, that's the funny thing. I mean, there's this Tea Party wing, the Republican Party with the Chamber of commerce folks and all of those other people. They are not anti-immigration, by the way. It's not like he's some anti- Democrat (ph) and saying this and I think that's what's getting lost in thoughts here but -- I'm not a Republican so, what do I know.
GUTFELD: Not yet, anyway.
ROGINSKY: Not. I'm getting there.
GUTFELD: Why wearing red.
ROGINSKY: Every day --
GUILFOYLE: Give it (ph) sometime.
ROGINSKY: We're working on there, right? You know it's working on me nonstop --
ROGINSKY: I know.
GUILFOYLE: She's drinking the tea.
ROGINSKY: I know.
GUILFOYLE: So good to have you here.
KELLY: Thanks for having me.
GUILFOYLE: And make sure to catch her full exclusive interview with Jeb Bush tonight at 9:00 p.m. Eastern on The Kelly File.
Coming up, two more police officers are dead. Where is the outrage over their lives, next?
GUTFELD: With the murders of the two police officers in Mississippi, we've seen nine officers gunned down in 2015, four being minorities. Those lives mattered, too. I'm thinking when the dead transcends skin color, maybe it's time to jettison the race wars. For its grim cloud of victimhood protects phony victims -- like looters and rioters -- while obscuring the real ones: shop keepers, old ladies, the cops. It places the deaths of the police into a context where guilt is transferred from the thug to the American oppressor.
The media more obsessed with racial intent than deadly acts, reveals its vested interest in maintaining a story of brutality that existed in the '60s, but it's changed dramatically. To pretend it hasn't is wrong. The police profession has been performing itself over decades, through outreach, training and recruitment. But to admit police progress undermines the us vs. them mentality that the radical left wishes to foment. Like this communist, at the Prince concert in Baltimore.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was great that the youth rose up and said, no more to police murder and police terror, and did not accept it anymore. The only thing that's going to make the community better is revolution not unless. I would torn these whole system built on white supremacy and racism. These youth came out in the streets and they refused to accept it. They tired of being murdered in streets and sent a clear message and so she had no choice but to bring charges down on these killer cops.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GUTFELD: Killer cops. It's easy to whip up resentment against anything that smacks with authority. Nobody ever organizes over pan handlers. So even if a cop is black, like the three arrested in Baltimore, or one dead in Mississippi, the hard left uses race as the underlying cause. It's why there are no defiant marches when policemen are killed. Activists just don't see the point, which is why the culture of victimhood includes only a few colors and none of them are blue.
So K.G. --
GUTFELD: When does the police incident that's bad, the media will use it to tarnish our whole profession.
GUTFELD: But when a police officer gets killed, immediately, that is --
GUILFOYLE: They are color blind, they see blue.
GUTFELD: Yeah, that's -- yeah, that's not part of the trend though.
GUTFELD: It's now, it's an anomaly --
GUILFOYLE: Now it's --
GUTFELD: But, but it's going up.
GUILFOYLE: But the problem is, is the White House and this administration have created a war against police officers in this country, with their allegations and false assertions that there's widespread and pervasive racism in the United States of America that lives in the heart and minds of the men and women in blue. This is a false narrative. It is dangerous. It is reckless. It has resulted in the loss of lives. They are not being held accountable. Think about this, not one of the investigations for civil rights violations that Eric Holder brought on behalf of the Department of Justice, resulted in any charges against any of these individuals, not one. I'm not saying investigations shouldn't be brought. But you must bring them responsibly and not create more panic, more fear, more anxiety across this country. See, too many officers have lost their lives. I mean, it is like hunting season on men and women in blue. What are we going to do about it? What is the government going to do about it? They bear a big sense of responsibility.
GUTFELD: Yeah. Julie, I hope I get this name right. Liquori Tate, 25-year- old was murdered as well as Benjamin Deen. These officers -- they were reminder that these are the people that are on the frontline who take the bullets so we don't have to. They are just doing their job.
ROGINSKY: Yeah. I mean, you're right. And, and -- clearly, there's no -- I don't know who will be the -- that guy is obviously not the guy --
ROGINSKY: That you played, but I don't think anybody who is responsible would be out there saying, it's open season on cops, we need a revolution, we needs to overthrow. Look, the police department said that integrated, as you said since the '60s. Tremendously, here in New York and Baltimore, all across the country and that's true. To me, this is not as much about racism. It's not a white versus black issue and never was. To me it's about the haves and have-nots. And to me it's about the people that don't -- and Eric is rolling his eyes that will be get this through which is that, there are entire communities and places like Baltimore where these people feel that they can't get a fair shake from cops and it's because they are black, it's because they are the have-nots and they feel the power structure is against them. That is much more -- it's not simple, some as black versus white, but it's something that we needs to be addressed as a country, because it is something that obviously that's out there and neither (ph).
GUTFELD: But I would goes -- I would -- partially, agree with you and say that there is a problem, but it's been made worse by the white liberal who has made it into a racial, a racial thing and it does not help to the black communities with these horrible programs which is perhaps made the haves and have-nots --
ROGINSKY: I agree. We need to review -- and I agree with you on that. We need to review our policies as it applies to urban cities --
ROGINSKY: You see, I'm losing either of them, but especially cities like Baltimore, we need to review them and I think we should come with no pre conception.
GUTFELD: Where - how come there are no police protests on, Eric, or marches, I mean, except when there's a funeral.
BOLLING: Yeah, I -- I don't know. My concerned that I mentioned last week when, when Brian Moore -- Officer Brian Moore or Detective Brian Moore who was made detective possibly (ph) -- died. Is there a new -- are criminals emboldened now? They see a cop now, they are packing he (ph) or they've done something wrong, they don't run anymore. Now they confront the cops. Now two more police officers are dead in Mississippi and is it the culture? Is it the media? Is it de Blasio, the mayor here saying, hey, my son of color needs to figure out how to handle New York City police officers if he confronts them? It's the, it's the CNN host who said maybe it's because there are people are coming back from military, they don't know how to handle the black community. Or maybe it's the Marc Lamont Hills who say -- you know, this is -- more of a function of white, whites -- this sound bites of white supremacy, white privilege has been announced to and has discussed, is the sentiment now to fight back against cops? And it feels like that's the season right now and it's absolutely wrong and I hope they get a handle on it and stop worrying about how the African-American community or the other communities -- feel about it. They need to -- cops need to show force, they need to and be backed by us.
GUTFELD: Dana, final thoughts on this?
PERINO: You sent an e-mail earlier today with an article asking, who would want to be a cop today? And I think that recruitment is gonna be on the minds of the federal government as well, as well, and, and the local police department. So, they have to figure out a way to get in enough recruits so that they can -- because not all of the recruits make it through the training. But we could face -- you know if this continues and people decide not to go into the police force. I think that Loretta Lynch, the new attorney general which she had her first initial week and had to deal with situation in Baltimore, which she addresses the cops there, that was the right message and saw a little bit more of that from her to down (ph) paper that I read. But maybe she could be a little bit more visible and that's gonna have -- that's gonna be -- she, you have to play the cards that you're dealt and as attorney general that's what she is going to have to deal with this issue.
GUTFELD: All right. Two Homeland Security secretaries and two four-star generals on the ISIS terror threat, next.
PERINO: I even got K.G. to dance. Mark that one down.
All right. The terrorists who waged jihad in Texas last weekend were at least inspired by ISIS, if they weren't working directly for the terror network. The FBI estimates ISIS has amassed thousands of online followers inside America, and concerns are growing about the threat here at home, among current and former U.S. officials.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEH JOHNSON, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: We are very definitely in a new phase in the global terrorist threat where the so-called lone wolf could strike at any moment.
TOM RIDGE, FORMER HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: We've seen al Qaeda has metastasized. It's now a global scourge, and you have the ascendancy of ISIL. The nature of the threats are far more complicated and far more serious today than on September 12, 2001.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If we don't keep the pressure on, we're going to see another 9/11-style attack.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PERINO: Generals David Petraeus and Stanley McChrystal both believe we've made gains in the war against ISIS, but they warn the threat also stretches beyond.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEN. DAVID PETRAEUS (RET.), FORMER CIA DIRECTOR: There's no question about it. They have lost ground steadily over the course of a number of months now.
Clearly American leadership is needed. It's vital; it's wanted. And actually, I think it is being provided.
GEN. STANLEY MCCHRYSTAL (RET.), FORMER COMMANDER OF U.S. FORCES IN AFGHANISTAN: I think that ISIS is a problem and it's really a symptom of a much greater problem.
If ISIS went away tomorrow, we'd have a huge problem still in that part of the world. So if we don't look at the fundamental problems, then ISIS or son of ISIS or grandson of ISIS will be a problem for years and years to come.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PERINO: All right. A lot there. Kimberly, can I start with you? I want to talk about the homeland security secretary who says that, now that we have a problem, it's grown -- it's grown inside. Do you feel like the administration has any responsibility for this? Do you feel like they have any responsibility for the growth?
GUILFOYLE: OK. Here we go. No, they don't. Because they're just up all night reading the DSM-V Axis. They don't feel they have an personal responsibility. I don't think so.
Honestly, if they did, they would do a better job. How can you deny the facts? How are they not persuasive?
What I do believe they are very committed to doing is not extending the reach of involvement with the United States of America in foreign areas. They want to try and keep this back. They want to try and disengage so that we aren't always responsible.
I get that viewpoint, but there's a serious responsibility that comes with being in a position where you have to make important decisions that are going to be far-reaching, especially in these regions.
When you prematurely withdraw, just to be able to say that you pulled out of one of these countries, you could be leaving a mess far greater. It goes -- we have to deal with Syria. We have to deal with Iraq. We have to deal with Afghanistan. Premature withdrawal...
PERINO: And now we have -- now our government is telling us there are thousands of ISIS-inspired people following online. So at what point, then, do we turn over to the -- to our intelligence community and the FBI and law enforcement and say, "OK, over to you guys. What are you -- how are you going to protect us?"
GUTFELD: That would violate our rights, Dana. We can't allow an intelligence organization to actually track these people.
We knew this was going to happen. We knew that they were going to be here.
PERINO: We did.
GUTFELD: And we now realize that the haystack strategy is important. You have to track the needles by going through the hay. And that's what we want.
By the way, I love the Texas example. I want these terrorists to be inspired, as long as they get ventilated. I hope that they show up at places where there are armed Americans who blow them away. That might be the most successful way.
I don't like the reasoning that maybe ISIS will burn out.
GUTFELD: I don't think you should have ever have an optimistic foreign policy. I think your foreign policy should always be pessimistic and as if these threats exist and will get worse.
GUILFOYLE: ISIS is the name today.
GUTFELD: Yes, it is the name today. It will be a different name tomorrow.
GUILFOYLE: That's it. And now they're pervasive on social media, and we're not getting it. We're behind.
PERINO: Let me ask Eric this, because this is something you've brought up before. So I knew that this book was coming out tomorrow. It's Michael Morrell's book. It's called "The Great War of Our Time." He was the deputy director of the CIA; he served 20 years.
He said, "There are two overarching points in this great war that we have. First, that extremists inspired by Usama bin Laden consider themselves to be at war with the United States; and No. 2, they want to attack us." And he says those are the two things that will not change any time soon.
BOLLING: FOX News alert. We run to that. Look, we know they want to kill us. There's no question. And I agree with McChrystal. What happens when ISIS is no longer ISIS but they're...
PERINO: Something else.
BOLLING: MASES (ph), whatever they want to call them.
GUILFOYLE: When they burn themselves out and replace themselves.
BOLLING: They will and their money will run out, and then all of a sudden, there will be another offshoot, al Qaeda in some other peninsula. And they'll start up and start to raise...
PERINO: And that's the ideology.
BOLLING: So what, do we keep fight -- honestly, at this point I have no idea. To continue to try to defeat an enemy that continues to scatter.
GUILFOYLE: Would you just give up?
ROGINSKY: I don't want to be a grim reaper here, but you guys, let's say Barack Obama goes away tomorrow and a Republican comes in?
ROGINSKY: OK, great. Congratulations. What's the solution?
PERINO: No, that's the point. It's not a partisan questions on the part of the administration. In fact, and what this book is saying, is that the great war of our time. It doesn't mean for the next 2 1/2 years while President Obama is here. It's the great war of our generation and of the next generation after this one.
GUILFOYLE: Bigger picture.
ROGINSKY: Because I'll tell you, you go to Syria and you get rid of Assad, guess who's replacing him? It's ISIS. And you go to places like...
PERINO: Not if it's Iran. And that comes back to my point, which is that there has to be some measure of responsibility taken by this administration for Syria, in particular.
GUILFOYLE: Yes, but they're sitting back.
ROGINSKY: They're not.
GUILFOYLE: And it's "Adventures of Babysitting." And you know, you have all these ayatollahs in Iran going, "Yay. Winning, winning." Right? Hashtag...
ROGINSKY: You're confusing Sunni and Shia right now. Iran is Shia. ISIS is Sunni.
GUILFOYLE: I'm not. I'm actually not confusing them.
GUTFELD: The initial point in here had to do with homegrown crazy people. The only solution to that is just a vigorous practicing of the Second Amendment. Everybody has a gun.
BOLLING: Agreed. And this was. The more they do it, the more homegrown terror becomes an issue.
BOLLING: You're just pushing -- you're pushing everything that we talked about in the Second Amendment.
PERINO: OK. I want to tease so we have enough time for your segment, because it's a good one. Ahead, George Clooney has a promise for Hillary Clinton ahead of 2016. You're going to hear it next. Plus, some news that might surprise a lot of "American Idol" fans, when "The Five" returns.
BOLLING: We were going to do "The Fastest Seven," but we just found out the NFL has suspended Tom Brady for the first four games, four regular season games of next season. Also, the Patriots will lose a first-round draft pick, the 2016 draft pick. So that news is just breaking. We wanted to bring that to you right away. Greg, you want to talk about this? First of all, let me put this out here. I think this is a huge mistake. I don't think -- I think this is the dumbest rule in all of sport. However, if they broke the rules, I get it. You've got to punish the guy for breaking the rules.
GUTFELD: He's suspended for four games but those games are tag, hide and seek, musical chairs and Yahtzee. He's still allowed to play football.
GUILFOYLE: What about leapfrog?
GUTFELD: I'm here for you, Gisele. I know this is going to be a tough time. He really seems deflated.
BOLLING: Very good. Dana?
PERINO: That was good. In the commercial break.
GUTFELD: I wrote those in the -- I was just thinking of stuff.
BOLLING: Dana, four games. The original suspension for Ray Rice after the domestic violence issue was only two games. Now, he ended up getting a longer sentence, but the first one was two-game suspension. So this is pretty heavy-handed.
PERINO: I think this is significant. And I was in Colorado this weekend. A few -- a couple folks came through the book signing line and said, "We're big Patriots fans, and we're really mad at you," because I had said he didn't do a good job in the communications of it.
I said, "Don't be mad at me." The Patriots fans, actually, you need to direct your anger to the person who just got suspended. He's the one who got them in trouble.
GUTFELD: No, I think it's your fault.
BOLLING: K.G. ...
GUILFOYLE: He didn't listen to Dana.
BOLLING: ... on Friday there was an interview with Jim Gray from the prior night, and he seemed very confident. He seemed very relaxed. He didn't seem like he was looking forward or expecting a four-game suspension.
GUILFOYLE: I just wonder; that really didn't help his case. Right?
GUILFOYLE: Because his attitude wasn't appropriate. It wasn't in keeping with the seriousness of the charges and the allegations.
GUILFOYLE: I mean, they took this all the way to the Super Bowl. How long has this kind of behavior been going on? Breaking the rules? Whether you like the rules or not, those are -- that's what exists on the books today. Right? It's different if they're going to go to change it in the future.
But I will say this, Brian Kilmeade called it. He said four- to six-game suspension and he said a second-round draft pick, that they would lose it. I think this is significant. This is a heavy -- heavy move by the NFL and, you know, people should take notice.
BOLLING: So we don't -- I can't read the press release, because it literally just happened. But I don't know if there's any more additional information -- any new additional information and any new ties between Tom Brady and the equipment managers who actually deflated the footballs. Didn't seem like there was a strong tie at the time.
ROGINSKY: Yes. I don't know, really, the details of this particular case. But going back to what Dana said, look, I'm a huge Yankee fan. I love the Yankees. A-Rod got suspended, and I'm happy he did, because he broke the rule. I know you don't like the rule that A-Rod got suspended on either, but why blame anybody else?
BOLLING: Because I'm not sure he broke the rule. I mean, listen, I'm no Patriots...
PERINO: Tom Brady should take the fall for the equipment guy. That would be the stand-up thing to do.
BOLLING: I'm not -- I'm not a Patriots fan. I'm not a Brady fan.
BOLLING: But if the equipment guys are doing it for Tom Brady...
PERINO: Oh, I'm sure. I just think that he should...
GUTFELD: I feel like he drew Mohammed.
GUILFOYLE: Oh, boy. On the football? Not on the pigskin.
PERINO: Lifetime suspension.
GUTFELD: Yes, he drew Mohammed on the football. Then I would be angry.
GUILFOYLE: Pigskin, no.
BOLLING: That's a good point. Pigskin.
All right. Up next, why an upcoming Pentagon exercise in seven states is sparking a slew of wild conspiracy theories. Stay tuned for that one, ahead.
ROGINSKY: There are all kinds of conspiracy theories floating around that an upcoming Pentagon exercise called Operation Jet Helm 15. It's a program that's going to run eight weeks in seven states beginning in July with troops practicing certain military maneuvers.
In Texas, the prospects of armed federal troops has sparked an avalanche of speculation, including fears of a government conspiracy to launch a hostile takeover of the state. Although the Defense Department vows there are no such plans to do so, Senator Ted Cruz understands the concern.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I understand the reason for concern and uncertainty, because when the federal government has not demonstrated itself to be trustworthy in this administration, the natural consequence is that many of the citizens don't trust what it's saying.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROGINSKY: Oh, boy. Former Texas Governor Rick Perry understands, as well, but thinks Americans can trust the military.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICK PERRY (R), FORMER TEXAS GOVERNOR: I don't think there's a problem to question your government. I do it on a regular basis. And I think that's a healthy thing, to question your government. I don't think it's particularly healthy to question the military.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROGINSKY: Wow. And Governor Abbott of Texas has apparently sent the National Guard out to make sure the Army doesn't get out of control. So can we just all agree, Eric -- can we -- can you and I agree on this?
BOLLING: I think we -- I'm not sure that that was a fair setup to Ted Cruz and Rick Perry.
Look, this is -- this is inspired -- the Jade Helm 15 conspiracy theorists are inspired Alex Jones, the nut job radio guy who actually was asked to go onto ABC and didn't, for some reason, over the weekend, didn't show up for that segment.
Look, Alex Jones is a 9/11 truther. He's an Oklahoma City truther. And any opportunity he can to perpetuate as conspiracy theory, he will.
Simulation -- military simulation is an important way of training people for an emergency. You don't want to do it after or during. You want to do it before, and that's all this -- what this is about.
ROGINSKY: So but Kimberly, what's weird to me about this is you've got the governor of Texas -- the governor of Texas -- saying, "I can understand people's concern so I'm going to deploy the National Guard to make sure that the Army -- the military doesn't get out of control." Is that taking it a little too far?
GUILFOYLE: Well, I don't know. It's -- it's a little excessive. A little -- but the thing is, obviously, he has a constituency that is really giving him a panic attack about this, because they're probably a very vocal minority that feel that this is the case. So they're going to be calling him. They're going to be e-mailing; they're going to be driving him nuts. But they've got to do something.
Let me tell you something. This is why this is not true. If the administration, the government was going to take over any state, it wouldn't be Texas. They are probably better armed more than most of our military. They would go for a blue state with all the gun laws.
GUILFOYLE: California or Vermont or Washington, something like that. That's the one to shoot for.
ROGINSKY: Will this help Texas secede? What do you think? With this kind of behavior?
GUTFELD: You know, but the fact is, the government has taken over some states. We know that.
ROGINSKY: Which ones?
GUTFELD: By the way, they're doing it. I can name them but I don't have time.
This is all being done to distract us from the chem trails. The chem trails are what's ruining us.
By the way, the thing that kills me about conspiracy theorists is that they believe that they reflect, like, at a higher intelligence, or a higher skepticism, or a sense of awareness, when in fact, every conspiracy theorist you know is gullible. They're the guys that always forward you the e-mail that's been forwarded 1,000 times.
PERINO: "I'm just saying."
GUTFELD: "I'm just saying. I'm just raising questions."
And they're always talking about false flag operations. And they're so insulting and cruel. Like Alex Jones saying that what happened in Boston, when the bodies were still fresh, was a false flag operation performed by the FBI while these people are mourning their dead.
GUTFELD: They are the worst, and they're the most gullible and the dumbest people. I can't stand them.
GUILFOYLE: I just don't like that they show everyone's e-mail on there instead of -- right? That's the most annoying part.
GUTFELD: Oh, you don't format the forwarded e-mail.
ROGINSKY: Yes. Dana, you worked for a guy who used to be governor of Texas. Could you imagine?
PERINO: No. And I actually think that -- I think it's a setup for those - - for Cruz and Perry and even talking about Abbott, the current governor. I actually think that they're in a position of responsibility to give some tough love.
PERINO: So what you just said about Alex Jones, that job, this is not true. That actually should have come from them.
ROGINSKY: I agree.
PERINO: Not from "The Five." "The Five," we can...
GUILFOYLE: Who are we?
PERINO: Who are we? We are nobody. But if you're in a position of elected leadership...
GUILFOYLE: Don't remind him, please. He's fragile.
ROGINSKY: Well, I have to say, Rick Perry, to his credit, called it, like, for what it is. He basically said this is nuts. Rick Perry, congratulations. Actually stood up, and he's the only one of the presidential candidates who actually -- who was asked a question, who came out and said, "This is crazy and we shouldn't entertain this." The others kind of hedged.
GUTFELD: I understand the skepticism. After all, since we do have a Kenyan-born president.
ROGINSKY: That's true. I've been to Kenya, and I saw his home crew (ph).
BOLLING: ... homeland security team.
ROGINSKY: On that note, "One More Thing" is up next.
PERINO: ... Benghazi.
GUILFOYLE: There you go. That was actually such a good segment.
GUILFOYLE: Welcome back. It's time now for "One More Thing" -- Eric.
BOLLING: OK, so let's rehash something we just found out, like, a couple of minutes ago. Tom Brady will be suspended by the NFL for four games. Now, that's going to cost Mr. Brady $1.89 million for those four games that he's suspended.
The Patriots will lose their first round draft pick for 2016. The back-up, Jimmy Garofalo, has a total of 27 career passes, no career starts. Brady had 207 career starts.
And guess what, guys, all you sports fans? The first game back next year against the Colts at the Colts, Andrew Luck versus Jimmy Garofalo.
PERINO: No pressure.
BOLLING: Now, that is going to be a must-see -- must-see game.
PERINO: I might even watch that.
GUILFOYLE: Could you imagine? This is a big deal. The first four games? That could determine the whole thing, whether they're even going to be eligible...
BOLLING: It's hard to go on four and still win the Super Bowl.
GUILFOYLE: The only one, like, doing the dance right now, the Macarena, is the back-up quarterback. All right, Greg.
GUTFELD: All right. It's time for...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GUTFELD: "What the Heck is That?"
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GUTFELD: All right. Show the picture. Kimberly, what the hell is that?
GRAPHIC: (PHOTO OF A LAMB WITH PANDA-STYLE BLACK AND WHITE COLORING)
GUTFELD: Or heck, sorry.
GUILFOYLE: Oh, my gosh. Is that real?
GUTFELD: What is it?
GUILFOYLE: It's a sheep?
PERINO: It's a lamb.
GUTFELD: Nope. I am -- stop it. Cheater. Julie.
ROGINSKY: It's a Muppet.
BOLLING: It's a calf.
GUILFOYLE: It's a lamb with leg warmers.
PERINO: It's a lamb.
GUTFELD: It's a lamb panda. It's a lamb with panda markings. His name is Earl. He's at the Staten Island Zoo. He's actually a lamb, but he has the markings of a panda. Not only is he adorable, he's delicious.
PERINO: We should totally -- mess with the Chinese minds and, like, release this as a big deal.
GUILFOYLE: Flaunt them (ph).
PERINO: "Wow. Look what we've created."
GUTFELD: We've blended a lamb and a panda.
PERINO: Like they do with all their animals.
GUTFELD: We have gay marriage. Now we have lambs and pandas.
GUILFOYLE: But not for nothing. Who was visiting that cage? I don't know.
PERINO: All right. Last week I did something really cool. And I thought everybody should know about this. It's called Rally Point. It's liked LinkedIn for the military community. So if you are active duty or formerly serving, you're allowed to join Rally Point. It is free to you.
And I did a Q&A with them last week about my book, and then tomorrow, they're going to have Stanley McChrystal, who -- he also has a book coming out. What I liked it, is that everybody was all engaged. You can network, find new people to talk to, bounce ideas off them, find best practices. So it's Rally Point. It's like LinkedIn for the military. I liked it.
GUILFOYLE: Very nice.
OK, and I have a cute one. This is Marnie. She's a Shih Tzu. She was adopted.
GUTFELD: Excuse me!
GUILFOYLE: She was adopted, so this was her Sunday at IKEA. Take a look. She's an Instagram sensation and see, there's a home of love for everyone. Obviously an abnormally long tongue. But she's so cute. And she has a vestibular syndrome. That's why her head is sideways. I have a Shih Tzu, too.
PERINO: Oh, my goodness.
GUTFELD: Watch your mouth.
ROGINSKY: So last week, a little band played a concert in Grand Central Station, and nobody knew who they were. And here they are in their disguise. And nobody could tell who they were. They were on a subway platform. And all of a sudden they took off their disguise, and it was U- 2.
PERINO: Amazing. How could anybody not know that that...
ROGINSKY: I know. I don't know. It's amazing. So the fact that they did that, wow.
GUILFOYLE: U-2 rules.
ROGINSKY: I'll try the subway.
GUILFOYLE: That's it for us. "Special Report" is next.
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