ObamaCare contractors grilled over website privacy concerns

This is a rush transcript from "The Five," October 24, 2013. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

ANDREA TANTAROS, CO-HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Andrea Tantaros, along with Bob Beckel, Eric Bolling, Dana Perino, and Greg Gutfeld.

It's 5 o'clock in New York City. And this is "The Five."


TANTAROS: Well, a big night here on "The Five" as one of our very favorites, Dr. Charles Krauthammer, will join us in a bit. Stick around for that.

But, first, the finger-pointing over ObamaCare's disastrous roll out reached Capitol Hill today as four of the Web site contractors were grilled over the failures of Obama signature legislation.

We'll get to the hearing in a minute. But, first, Bob, a week ago, you said the White House should delay ObamaCare's implementation for just six months to a year.

Now, you got some pretty harsh feedback from someone very close to President Obama. You want to tell us about that earful?

BOB BECKEL, CO-HOST: Well, what I want to say he is no longer there. So, I want to make sure, he's --

GREG GUTFELD, CO-HOST: You got him fired?


DANA PERINO, CO-HOST: Now I know who it is.

TANTAROS: The guessing game begins.

BECKEL: Any way. They were giving an opinion. My opinion was sucked basically. I mean, it was -- they were very -- this particular person was a friend of mine. He said that was a bad thing for you to do and going on for sometime.

Well, I said I sit next to Bolling and he just rubs on off on me. What can I tell you?

PERINO: Do you think that they've called all the Senate Democrats that have called for the same thing and given them the same --

BECKEL: They've jumped on. But sure.

TANTAROS: Do you think they can control it at this point or no?

BECKEL: No, you can control everything in politics until you get near the campaign. At that point, the political consultants take over and they're going to say to him, don't touch this thing.

TANTAROS: So, Bob, any delay, any indication from that phone call, they will delay? The tax or anything?

BOLLING: Is he still in -- is he still in the White House?


BOLLING: White House advisor?


BOLLING: How close?

BECKEL: I'm not going to answer questions.

TANTAROS: Name rhymes with --

GUTFELD: Is it Jay-Z, Bob? Is it Jay-Z, Beyonce?

PERINO: Kanye?

BECKEL: Beyonce.

PERINO: I have a -- Bob, in Washington, you're always worried that your phone is never going to ring again. Maybe take it as a compliment that they still call you and think your opinion is worth trying to influence.

BECKEL: No, I'm not called on a regular basis by Democrats from the White House. I can guarantee you that. I get called by former clients of mine.

BOLLING: So, wait, when we first started the show, we'll be sitting here and you forget to turn off your phone, you remember that? And it ring and several occasions, the little name on the top said White House.

BECKEL: Yes, that's when my friend was still there.

PERINO: That was another place --



BECKEL: We're talking about the White House Korean massage parlor.

TANTAROS: By the way, with friends like that who call you, and yell at you, who needs enemies, I guess?

Well, here are two interesting things that happened during the Capitol Hill hearings today. First up, remember when Eric told you last week about the security concern with the ObamaCare source code?

Well, earlier today, Joe Barton grilled the main ObamaCare contractor over that privacy problem.


REP. JOE BARTON (R), TEXAS: You're telling every American if you sign up or attempt to, you have no reasonable expectation of privacy. That is a direct contradiction to HIPAA and you know it, yes or no?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Once again, CMS has us comply to rules and regulations they've established under our contract. And that is a CMS call.

BARTON: Who wrote that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm not clear as to who wrote that.


TANTAROS: And check out ObamaCare contractor Andrew Slavitt admitting attempts his ObamaCare account failed. True story.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you personally try to get on the system?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For what state?

SLAVITT: I put in Texas.

UINIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that where you're from?

SLAVITT: I'm not. I was testing the system.


SLAVITT: Well, I logged on to create an account, was able to do so. I just never received the confirmation e-mail.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, it didn't work?

SLAVITT: Didn't work.


TANTAROS: Oh, brutal. If you watch those hearings, Dana.

I think Jonah Goldberg described it earlier on the network as crabs trying to crawl out of a bucket. And he said, when one crab tries to crawl, the other ones just pull you down, it was pretty tough to watch if you're in the administration.

PERINO: I always feel bad for people. That guy is being honest. He tried and it didn't work.

The look on her face to Congressman Barton. That's a priceless look. She was probably thinking, who the heck are you?

I think they're asking a decent question, which is the one about the privacy piece. It's the next big shoe that's going to drop that people realize they don't want to put in information because they're not sure that they're going to get anything back. They're not going to be confirmed.

Bob, why are you looking at me like that?

BECKEL: I was going to ask Eric if he felt bad for the people.

PERINO: I always feel bad for people when they're getting -- I know -- what's wrong with me?

BOLLING: Especially --



BOLLING: So, let's talk about the -- Barton asked the person from CGI. She blames somebody else. But the reality of what that was, there's the legalese thing in there when you check you're agreeing to it. So, we went back, Congressman Frank Pallone from New Jersey grilled Barton for that. He called him a monkey court or whatever.

But I went back and spent time with a lawyer today to talk about this. And specifically, what happened is, Pallone is absolutely wrong. The Democrat is absolutely wrong.

When you check that, you're not agreeing with HIPAA. It's actually, what the HHS has done is they bypassed HIPAA because it's called the privacy rule applies to cover entities. Somehow, Sebelius and the HHSS made it so that ObamaCare and this Web site is not a covered entity.

So, it's not covered by HIPAA. So, when you do check it, you do give up your right to privacy.

BECKEL: I'm not sure we've done that.

BOLLING: HIPAA, it's a law that was passed to protect --

TANTAROS: The Health Information Privacy Act.

BOLLING: Helped protect users of several various forms of health care. So, what they did was they got -- they bypassed HIPAA with this law. And now, so when you do check that, you do give away your privacy. You open yourself to give away.

Can I show one quick thing? You want to do this?


BOLLING: OK, I tried to log on. I also tried to log on. This is absolute true story. I did it by the book. I filled it in properly. I got my own pass word.

Then it asked for security questions, right? So, I answered the three. What's your niece's name? Tina. What's your favorite pet's name? I said rover. I put it in.

Then I went to create the account. Look in that screen. I create the account. It says you can't use the same answer for any security questions. Well, I didn't. I used three different answers. Go back real quickly. There's three different answers.

I went back and I did it two more times with different questions, different answers. Still --

TANTAROS: But we warned about this. "USA Today", Greg, did an article months ago, talking about this federal database that they were creating, not just with this privacy questions, but Social Security numbers, your criminal record. They're going to compile all of it. They can accept or reject you for the subsidies.

But then, they have all your information. So, did anyone think about or care about the privacy concerns? I mean, this is just one of the big things that are happening.

GUTFELD: I think it's a huge mistake. I said this yesterday and I'll say it again. It's a huge mistake to keep focusing on the site and not the law. The law represents failure of liberalism.

More Americans have lost coverage than signing up for plans -- lost coverage than signed up for plans.

So, President Barack Obama has reinvented a new kind of power transfer. It's no longer wealth redistribution. It's health redistribution.

This has never been done before. Obama is a domestic imperialist, and that he extends his power through force within our own borders. Old school imperialism is you did that internationally. Now, it's happening internally. So, we can sit here and talk about flaws until we're blue in the face. We're just helping him.

And I want to quote Garry Kasparov (ph)?

PERINO: Kasparov?

GUTFELD: Kasparov. He said complaining about the Web site is like complaining about the color paint on a time bomb.

BOLLING: Disagree. Disagree, because the Web site represents complete colossal period of leadership, management --

GUTFELD: That's what I just said.

BOLLING: But, yes, but let's point it out.

GUTFELD: I'm saying we should talk about the law now. We should talk about how this is going to be a disaster because -- what happens when they fix the flaws? What are you going to do now?

BOLLING: Then we're going to start focusing how much it cost --

TANTAROS: And hold on a second.

Bob, George Will made this point. He said, OK, the Web site is one thing, but the law itself what Greg was just talking about, what's about to come down the pipe with the policy of the law is far worse. Take a listen.


GEORGE WILL, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: When they fix the Web site, their real problems will begin. They're going to look back on the last few weeks as the good old days, because when people hack their way through the thicket of difficulties and get to real choices that ObamaCare offers, particularly 2.7 million young people counting on to sign up. And the young people say, this is awfully expensive for something I don't want, and recoil. That is the difficulties today are actually keeping people from seeing the bad choice they're going to have to make once they get onto the site.


TANTAROS: Bob, I actually agree with him. I think Republicans are making a bit of a mistake to focus just on the Web site because it is small ball. It's an issue. But when you look at the law and you look at "The New York Times" story that talks about what's happening where poor and middle class people can't get the premiums at the price they promised going up for poor people.

Isn't that a bigger issue for Democrats to deal with?

BECKEL: We're almost done with the segment. Let me ask, Greg.

I think yesterday, let me ask you a segment. I'm not arguing. I'm just curious. People lose their insurance because they sign up for this?

GUTFELD: No, more people have lost their insurance than have signed up. That's called health redistribution.

BECKEL: But they lost their insurance for what reason?

PERINO: Their health plans dropped them.

BECKEL: Oh, I see, I see.

PERINO: I think that another piece of this is the youth of America -- yes, they're getting the hammer. Rural America found out today in a report by Russell Mead (ph) on his Web site that Walter Russell Mead, that if you enroll America, you hardly have a choice any way. It's one or two plans. They're five times as expensive as they used to be. But I was surprised no congressman asked today any of the contractors if they're willing to give taxpayers their money back. I think that's a simple question that they could have asked them. And I probably wouldn't have felt too sorry for them.

TANTAROS: Because they're probably getting ready to ask for money, you know?

GUTFELD: They're going to delay this how many weeks? Yet they're saying they haven't delayed anything. So, they're having it both ways, which -- I don't know, maybe that's homophobic.

But they are. They're like -- they're saying they're not delaying it but they're delaying it.

TANTAROS: They're bi-health care.

GUTFELD: There you go.

TANTAROS: Next up, President Barack Obama makes a big push for immigration reform but perhaps a little bit of bad timing? We'll debate that.

And later, Charles Krauthammer will be here making his first appearance in the studio on "The Five". We're looking forward to that.

Keep it right here.


GUTFELD: When I was a kid, if I did something stupid, I got punished, grounded. Usually meant two weeks without the car, TV, or model airplane glue. The stuff was great.

Government is immune to such punishment. How can you slash the allowance of a child who can take your wallet by force? Which is why after the dismal ObamaCare roll out, president Barack Obama is acting fast on immigration, another priority without principle.

See, Obama is the kid that crashed the parent's car and is now busying planning a house party while mom and dad are at the mechanics. It's why we need to say no Ferris Bueller. You're grounded. Hand over the iPhone, get off the iPad, go upstairs and think about what you've done.

You've singlehandedly hazed one sixth of the economy, and you think we're going to hand you the keys to our borders? Are you smoking shrooms (ph) again? Somebody go through his clothes.

Seriously, I'm actually for immigration reform, one that helps those who legally try to immigrate first and one that focuses on security not sympathy. But I'm not letting Squiggy near this. In an economic meltdown featuring a jobless world for an entire generation, you think a guy desperate for new friends should be in charge of opening the doors to 11,000 new pals? He wants to throw a house party in America after crashing the health care car?

Sorry, dude. You can barely steer a golf cart, much less a country. Go upstairs. You can come back down in three years.


GUTFELD: A.T., shouldn't government have a time-out?

TANTAROS: Yes, a very big time-out for President Barack Obama.

You know, the same remarks that he made today about immigration reform were the same thing he said about health care reform. Basically trust us, now is the time, we should do this, we're going to reform it. It's going to be great, we have to do this. And now, look what's happened.

You know, my dad said to me when I tried to undertake two massive things at one time. He said, you know, Andrea, you can't run with two watermelons. You're going to drop one.

The president dropped one. A big one. Get your mind out of --

GUTFELD: I'm sorry.

TANTAROS: You too, Bob. You, too.

GUTFELD: You brought up what President Obama have to say on passing immigration reform. Let's roll that SOT.


BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Securing our borders, modernizing our legal immigration system, providing a path way to earned legalized citizenship, growing our economy, strengthening our middle class, reducing our deficits, that's what common sense immigration reform will do. Now, obviously just because something is smart, fair, good for the economy, fiscally responsible, and supported by business and labor, the evangelical community, many Democrats and many Republicans, that does not mean it will actually get done. This is Washington after all.


GUTFELD: Hey, Bob, OK, he says that everybody is for this. Shouldn't a liberal who is fighting for the little guy because you are, wouldn't the influx of chief labor hurt the American poor, while helping the wealthy? Because the wealthy doesn't care who's working for them. But the poor lose the jobs.

BECKEL: You know, if you talk -- first of all, I want to give Obama some due here. There have been more people who have been intercepted and set back across the border than ever happened before. The model that they're using for this is Ronald Reagan's model.

The problem with the Reagan model, it's the right thing to do, but they didn't have the enforcement of the business end.


BECKEL: So, people weren't sent back. I think the answer to your question is, the farm workers were -- particularly the union, the farm worker union. They have the most to lose here if this happens.

But in Texas, when George Bush was governor of Texas, they never had the problems, because Bush understood, the farmers understood that there was enough to go around. They had no problems. That's why Bush got 45 percent of the Hispanic vote and why the other Republicans got 20.

GUTFELD: What do you think, Eric?

BOLLING: I think there's another way to do it, because I think if you do it that way, President Barack Obama's way, you have 11 million Democrats voting ASAP. And that's what they're looking for. Look,, obviously --

BECKEL: They can't vote for 20 years.

BOLLING: They can speed up the process. They can vote.

First of all, why would they do this process if it's going to take 20 years? Everything changes. Bob, you know this as I do. Congress will pass something to give them the right to vote.

Very quickly, I would do the same thing that we talked about -- privatize the border, close it. Let farmers own, close the control it. If it's leaky (ph), then move them out, move someone else in.

If you want to let Republicans get in front of this, do it legally. Let about a million in the year, triple it. Make it 3 million. Have the people here, the 11 million get out come back in legally, speed up the process, so it doesn't take 20 years to become citizen --

BECKEL: How are you going to get 11 million out of here? Sorry.


PERINO: Major communications hurdles to clear because the distress with the Hill is at an all time high, between the White House and the Hill. And they're going to have to explain how they'll be able to implement an e- verify system for employment if they can't do the health care Web site.

GUTFELD: Good point there, little lady.

All right. Coming up: Charles Krauthammer joins "The Five", making it the six.

But, first, someone gives this group an award. We'll tell you about the Texas youth league that's no longer giving trophies to kids who didn't earn them.

If you leave now, you're a loser. That kid, not really.


BECKEL: There haven't been -- I'm sorry. These kids have to earn --


GUTFELD: Oh, no.

BECKEL: I'm sorry. You have to be a winner. That's I'm sorry, I searched (ph) something before the break that I didn't know about.

So, that's why the Keller Youth Association Football League in Texas will no longer give out trophies to kids for participating.

Here's Coach Paul Quinones.


PAUL QUINONES, KELLER YOUTH ASSOCIATION: These kids have been raised in a society where things have been given to them. You get a reward for anything and everything.

So, now, we don't want them to get a reward just for participating. You have to go above and beyond to get those rewards. That's what we want to teach the kids. In order to succeed in life, you have to give 110 percent all the time. Not just sometimes but all the time.

We don't want them to have the sense of entitlement that's been brought on the last 10 to 15 years.


BECKEL: Some of the parents --


MIKE SIMMONS, FATHER: He's got 10 or 12 trophies. They don't mean anything to him right now. Championship trophy from last year means something to him.


BECKEL: This is the story behind it. Anybody on any team would get a trophy for simply participating. We've talked about this before on "The Five".

I feel strongly you have you to earn trophies. I know you do too, don't you, Eric?

BOLLING: I do. I'm proud the coach stood up. Take note it's in Texas. All good things start and end in Texas.

BECKEL: Why don't you move there?

BOLLING: Love to some day.

BECKEL: Dana, I suppose this is done in an area of your expertise. But just the concept -- wouldn't it be like going in a class, the worst kids in the class still get something?

PERINO: That happens. It's like the green ribbon on field day. It's like the most embarrassing ribbon to get, with the green one. You had to walk around with it, pin to your lapel. That never happened to me, of course.

It's like kindergarten, third, fifth grade graduation. I say ban all of that. There's one graduation. You graduate high school and college.

No more of this bologna. It's just marketing. That's all it is. You're expected to get through those and get to high school. Graduate high school and then you can have a party.

BECKEL: Andrea, you were an athlete and a cheerleader, which I do think is very athletic.

TANTAROS: No, I wasn't a cheerleader.

BECKEL: I thought you were a cheerleader.

TANTAROS: I competed in dance competitions.

BECKEL: What do you think about this?

TANTAROS: Well, I think there's a lot of other lessons with football. You don't need to give them a medal when they just walked on the field, right? It's one of the only sports that you actually need people's help to score. It's not an individual basis. I mean, I guess the quarterback can score on it's own, but it is really team based.

But, two, if you keep giving kids a wards for showing up, what happens? They get older and show up for their first job and they want a pat on the back for showing up and doing nothing. Then they turn into, I don't know, government workers. Not all government workers, Bob.

But look at Lois Lerner. Look at people in the administration. They deserve what -- they think they're entitled to applause, green ribbons, like Dana. For what?

BECKEL: I played football at a high level. I'm entitled to come here.

Greg, I know you probably participated in youth football.

GUTFELD: Yes, I did.

BECKEL: In San Francisco Bay Area.

GUTFELD: I was a volunteer coach until they asked me to leave after an incident.

You know, this is an attack on the trophy industry. It's going to drive up prices for trophies.

By the way, when I was a kid, you used to get awards for best spirit and most improved. Those are basically participation trophies. I was the only one getting them. This is an attack on little people like me.

By the way, what do they give away -- trophy companies must have awards night. Do they get a trophy for best trophy? Because that would be really freaky.

BECKEL: There's a trophy association.

GUTFELD: Yes, there has to be. And they must have awards for best trophy.

BECKEL: That's probably true. I don't know.

You've got a bunch of trophies, right? I have a bunch stacked away somewhere. You keep bringing yours out?

BOLLING: No, no, no --

PERINO: They're displayed.

BOLLING: They're locked away.


BOLLING: I'm proud of those, too.

BECKEL: Damn right, I agree with you.]

BOLLING: A lot of work, a lot of hard work. Back then it was hard work.

BECKEL: Am I supposed to get out of here? OK, good.

GUTFELD: You know what happens, people that get a lot of trophies end up running a trophy shop.

BECKEL: There's an idea.


BECKEL: I went --

TANTAROS: I would think you would run a trophy shop if you didn't get a lot of trophies, that's why you have a lot, because you never earned them.


BECKEL: I got a big trophy in New York for division 2 football. And every family showed up. My old man didn't show up, and I was sitting there, and they put the trophy on the chair where my father was supposed to be sitting. It was taller than I was. It's one of those things are huge.


BECKEL: Like the big ones for baseball?

BOLLING: I probably have, Bob. I'm thinking about your story today. I can't wait to tell your story.

BECKEL: What story?

BOLLING: Hope we can tell it.

BECKEL: No, no, no, we're not going to tell that story.

TANTAROS: Instead of a trophy, I want a giant stuffed St. Bernard in vacation bible school class for getting every Bible verse right.

BECKEL: Well, good for you.]

TANTAROS: I don't know. It's the only thing I ever won.

BECKEL: Gee. Greg, how was your bible school study?

GUTFELD: I don't remember --

BECKEL: Folks out there wondering about the segment, it's mine. And it's not the E-block. I'm not used to having this much time. They say Bob spend another minute. We continue to talk. You'll like it. It's a fun story.

Dana, tell us about something.


PERINO: Well, I won this state speech tournament in high school.

BECKEL: Oh, you did. Good. Get a trophy.

PERINO: My family didn't come either. When I got home, no one even stood up. Isn't that sad?

TANTAROS: That's sad.

PERINO: They were sitting in the rocking chairs reading the paper. It was a good lesson. You learn you're not all that great. It's very humbling.

GUTFELD: (INAUDIBLE) low self-esteem is the best way to get successful.

PERINO: Is that what's happening to me?



BECKEL: I'll tell you what? It sure happened to me.

Up next, one word, here it is -- Krauthammer!


BOLLING: Welcome back, everybody.

It's very rare that "The Five" welcomes somebody on the show. Got to be a big shot, you got to be a news maker or a VIP. In this case, we have a guy who can be consider all three.

Big "The Five" welcome to syndicated columnist and all around good guy, our friend, our colleague, Dr. Charles Krauthammer. Charles has a new book, "Things That Matter: Three Decades of Passion, Pastimes and Politics", which out today.

Charles, my friend, welcome, sir.

I'm going to kick off questions. The well-publicized divide on the right, how does the GOP fix that?


Look, when you think about the anti-war movement merged with Democrats in the late `60s and `70s, that was not an easy marriage. In fact, they lost two presidential elections. Were you in on those?


BECKEL: (INAUDILE) about to ask the guy you described when he was going to show up.

KRAUTHAMMER: To Richard Nixon, which is hard to do. But in the end, they were able to do it.

I think the merger of the Tea Party which easily could have been a third party and destroyed the Republicans by splitting the vote, I think the integration is very solid. The debate now the argument, rumble has been over tactics. It isn't over objectives.

And because objectives are the same, I think in the end it works out.

BECKEL: But is that really true it's not about objectives? I mean, there's an isolation spring that's come back in the party. It hasn't been there since the 70s.

But some of these people don't want us to see this. There's an isolation string. That's not going to mix with Republicans are, right?

KRAUTHAMMER: Yes, but look, we've always had isolationist string in the country going back to way before the wars. In the 19th century, we were entirely isolationist. The Democrats have their own isolation language integrated in the `60s, but is very strong part of your coalition, and it's natural.

After the war, you expected it with the glue that was anti-communism holding the elements of the conservative movement. When that dissolved it was expected.

I actually was surprised that the isolationism among the rights didn't emerge strongly in the `90s. What you're seeing now is a very weak echo of that. I don't think it's surprising in any way.

BOLLING: Charles, we're going to get moving along. Let's go around the table. Dana?

PERINO: I wonder if you could help us with a discussion we had the first block about the health care.

KRAUTHAMMER: I'm here to help.

In fact, I'm a psychiatrist. I could run a group.

PERINO: We have that everyday with group therapy with Bob.

BECKEL: You and I could run it together.

KRAUTHAMMER: It depends on your insurance. Any of guys carry any now.

TANTAROS: And Charles really have 20 minutes left to psychoanalyze, Bob.

PERINO: My question is, when we were talking about the Republicans looking at Obama care and the Web site glitches, do you think there's too much focus on the actual Web site and not enough on the law? Or do you think it's all one in the same?

KRAUTHAMMER: No, I think -- I think there is not too much emphasis. I think Republicans ought to jump on the roll out, the disaster that it is. Right now, hit it hard. It isn't as if you have to choose between the disaster that we had now and the one that is going to come inevitably when implementation. Hit them at every stage in the road because I think it is a disaster.

So, the idea that we have to hold back now because they'll able to fix the glitches. Well, when glitches are fixed it's going to be a disaster with higher premiums, loss of coverage and all that, hit them again. Keep at it and don't hold back now. There's no reason to.


GUTFELD: A lot is made about President Barack Obama playing golf often during times of crisis. He plays at courses where there are lady tees. Isn't that sexist?

KRAUTHAMMER: You know, that's the kind of question I never get on "SPECIAL REPORT". I wonder why -- on the other side of the looking glass right now.

GUTFELD: But shouldn't he be at a course where all men and women are treated equally? Why do they need special tees?

KRAUTHAMMER: Because of the same reason you have women's 100 meters and men's. I gave you a straight answer to a dumb question.


GUTFELD: Which had to be dumb (ph).

BOLLING: Ands, you're up.

TANTAROS: Charles, what do you think the biggest threat is facing conservatism? Is it a moderate wing of the right? Is it not enough moderation? Is it the media? What do you think is the biggest threat today?

KRAUTHAMMER: I think the idea there's ideological war is a little bit exaggerated. Yes, in the last month, we've had a rumble over tactics. I think there's a consensus in the party that came after the defeat of 2008. In fact, Paul Ryan who is considered a moderate is the one that said we lost our way, allow the entitlement without a push back on that. It had to come back to its roots.

That's the essence of Tea Party. I think it was a good thing. Infusing that with the old GOP is injected energy. That returned to a kind of constitutionalism which is what the party needs.

So, all the soul searching as a result of a rumble over tactics. I think it's somewhat overblown.

BOLLING: All right. Bob, last but not least.

BECKEL: I was going to say -- I wanted to say. A lot of people didn't know that Charles and I were once colleagues. Charles was a speech writer for Vice President Mondale in the White House.

And, Charles, I want to say, just to clarify this, you never had anything to do with '84 Mondale, the campaign that I ran, that we lost 49 out of 50 states. It was nothing to do. You're already become a right winger at that point.

Except I want to tell you one thing, we used most of your writing for our strategy. I want to thank you for that. I waited years to do it. I read through your writings and said now we've got it.

KRAUTHAMMER: Well, see, even then, I was a Manchurian candidate, I was enrolled for the other side. I got into the Mondale campaign. I wrote the worst speeches ever written.

BECKEL: You did. I don't know how you became such a good writer. Honest to god, some of your stuff is horrible.

KRAUTHAMMER: I should be your set up man because I was feeding you all these soft balls.

Now, it's true. I did not work with you in '84. I do know that you tried to steal Texas for Carter in '80, but you were short 9 million votes.

BECKEL: Right, I had them all the way you to Mexico City.

Let me say this. Of all conservative writers that I know, you are the one that makes most sense. Most do not make sense to me. You do.

KRAUTHAMMER: My career is now officially over.

BOLLING: The good news is you can re-up your career in the next block. We're going to stick around. Charles is going to come back. We're going to talk about his new brand new book "Things That Matter." He's also sticking around for "One More Thing."

Don't go anywhere. It will be good.


PERINO: We are back now with Charles Krauthammer, author of the brand new book "Things That Matter: Three Decades of Passion, Pastimes and Politics." It is a must read. You can pick up a copy either online or at your favorite bookstore. It's been a pleasure to work with Charles on this book.

I'm going to start with Gutfeld to my left.

GUTFELD: I have a two-part serious question. You migrated like me from liberal to conservative. I want to know what caused you to move in that direction.

And I want to know, how can you rarely see a conservative that becomes liberal? And the ones that do become a liberal, generally, it's based on a personal bitter vendetta. Like a David Brock, went from conservative to liberal over a relationship issue. You never see it done over principle.

KRAUTHAMMER: Let me take it one at the time.

On the first one, that's the introduction of a book, a very long essay, is one about how I changed from liberal to conservative, because I do believe everybody has a right to change their opinion and ideology. But if you're in public life, you at least owe an explanation.


KRAUTHAMMER: In the beginning is an explanation, at least as I saw it.

I say the short answer is I'm open to empirical evidence. I was a Great Society liberal. I believed in war on poverty. I thought it was extremely well-intended. But the evidence began to come out -- in the `80s, it began with a book by Charles Murray.


KRAUTHAMMER: And then in all these journals, the public interest and others, the empirical evidence of the -- not only the failure of the war on poverty, but the devastation it left in the wake of communities it was intended to help was absolutely stunning.

But the middle, in the early middle `90s, I had decided despite good intentions, what was essentially democracy or liberalism was not achieving its goals. The way to achieve them is really with more limited government. So, that's sort of how that happened.

On the other question, there are examples of those who migrate the other way right to left I think on principle. Gary Wells, Andrew Sullivan in our time. So, I'm not always sure.

There's a personal event in someone's life to affect their change. I'm not sure there's a real difference between left and right.


PERINO: One of the things in the book that's so important it's not just about politics.

Andrea, you wanted to ask Charles about one of the columns in the book.

TANTAROS: Charles, my mom always says adversity never leaves where you find it. You are familiar with adversity. And you write about it in your book about your brother, Marcel. And you talk about -- in a column from 2006, you talk about your brother and his passing. I lost my brother two months ago with special needs.

This book has called things that matter. How did that affect your life?

KRAUTHAMMER: I thought the affect he had on my life, because he went to medical school when I was 17. So, we weren't together after that. He was really older than me by four years, just the two of us, because he was the ideal older brother. There were two ways to go.

You can abuse and harass your younger brother as I would have probably done had I been older, or you can help him and respect him and elevate him. When I was a kid, he was a great athlete. He always insisted in pick up games if I wasn't allowed to play, and I was a runt, he wouldn't play. So, I played. And I learned to go at it one on one with the big boys at a young age. That's the gift he left me.

PERINO: That's great.

Eric, what did you want to ask Charles?

BOLLING: They're telling me that Charles' book is now number one on Amazon. It bumped Bill O'Reilly's book down --

BECKEL: What a shame.


BOLLING: It's for you, my friend. Are you worried? Do you look over your shoulder walking through the hallway? Any concern of about maybe a horse heading your bet (ph) - -

GUTFELD: O'Reilly's next book will be killing Krauthammer.

KRAUTHAMMER: Are you trying to destroy my career in one-half hour? He praises me on the right which is utter devastation. And you're getting me in a fight with O'Reilly.

Bill, I apologize. I'm sure it's not going to last very long.

BECKEL: Can I ask a quick question? You wrote a column about the space program and Kennedy. I've always been a proponent. You agree a lot came out of that program, a lot of enthusiasm, we don't have it. Is that a fair?

KRAUTHAMMER: I do think if you grew up in that age and you thrilled to these events. I it went to a launch about ten years ago. Then you miss had the exploration that Kennedy we do things not because they are easy but because they are hard. That's a message that's been lost.

PERINO: I have to be a lightning round type question. How important is it to have interests outside of politics?

KRAUTHAMMER: That's what really matters. That's -- I wanted to write a book only with my columns on stuff outside of politic, but I decided as I write in the introduction trying to explain half the book is politics that is in the end, everything that matters depends on getting the politics right. All the things elevated and sophisticated, beautiful sublime, art, music, poetry everything, if you get the politics wrong, Germany in '30s, North Korea today, it wipes away everything.

That's why I changed from being a doctor to political life because I thought that history will decide if all the other wonderful things will be allowed to flourish. It's unfortunately politics that decides that. Politics grubbing and grasping and cynical and all that, nonetheless is sovereign, because you have to get it right.

PERINO: Well, the book is a treasure. It's called "Things That Matter." Charles is sticking around for "One More Thing". It's up next!


TANTAROS: It's time now for "One More Thing". And Charles Krauthammer, our special guest tonight, is still with us.

But, Greg, you're going to kick it off.

GUTFELD: All right. So, this morning, I'm going to the gym. At 9:00 a.m., on the street, there's a construction crew working their butts off, tearing up the road, filling stuff up. Behind them on the sidewalk, a young guy maybe 20s, in a sleeping bag, lined vertically like this sleeping against the wall like this.

So, I decided to resurrect this phrase, bum.

In the `70s, the phrase homeless became popular, to describe people that were incurring hardships during the Carter years, we understood it. They are homeless families. It was rough.

But when you're 25, same age as the people working on the street, you're a bum.

TANTAROS: What about bumming cigarettes? I've heard you use that before.

GUTFELD: Yes, I don't like that either.

PERINO: I thought you stopped smoking?

GUTFELD: I did stop smoking for now.

TANTAROS: No one likes a quitter.

OK. So, yesterday I wasn't on the show but we played a sound for Gavin McInnis who is getting beat up for making these remarks.



GAVIN MCINNIS: I'm sure 7 percent, I would guess 7 percent, like not having kids. They want to be CEOs. They like staying at the office all night working on a proposal and all power to them.

But by enforcing that as the norm, you're pulling all these women away from what they naturally want to do, and it's making them miserable. OK?


TANTAROS: OK. So, he says feminism is making women miserable. Maybe some women, I do agree with him. But I want to have one caveat, I think it's making men also pretty miserable. I do. I think there's something to that. I know I'm going to get hammered for saying it. but I do believe it.


BECKEL: OK. You all know I'm for Teddy Cruz for Republican nomination in 2016. One of the reasons he'll be the healthiest candidate, for sure, because it was announced finally as I said on the show last week, that his wife's policy at Goldman Sachs, you know that group of small bank downtown, and the policy $46,000.

And for some reason, Teddy, I wish you had mentioned in the 21 hours. I know you're going to be healthy. So, you guys, Teddy Cruz, 2016, he's at the top and he's healthy.

BOLLING: You did that already.

GUTFELD: We're not paying for his health care. That's awesome.



BOLLING: I get to go quickly. Timing is everything in life. Here's Charles last night., Jon Scout. Check out the timing.

GUTFELD: Jon Stewart.


JON STEWART, COMEDY CENTRAL: Thirty years. Do you ever look back on these writings and think, what was I thinking?

KRAUTHAMMER: It's worse than that.

The worst part of writing the book was going all the way back and reading the million words I had written and looking. By the end of this process, I was near suicidal. I couldn't believe I had written some of that stuff.

STEWART: What's the growth process been like?

KRAUTHAMMER: The growth process?


KRAUTHAMMER: Well, I was once a liberal.

STEWART: So the early writings showed hope?

KRAUTHAMMER: And then came change.


BOLLLING: Well done, Charles. Jon Stewart that was.

PERINO: I have a fairly quick question. I hope you get the answer right. What do you feel about America's dog Jasper?

BECKEL: We almost made it through the show without that damn dog.

KRAUTHAMMER: Jasper in '16.

PERINO: That's a great answer. Thank you. Thank you for validating my dog.

TANTAROS: Bob likes Jasper more than Ted Cruz.

BECKEL: I like Teddy and Jasper for a ticket.

KRAUTHAMMER: Now it's my one more thing.

TANTAROS: Yes, Charles.

KRAUTHAMMER: Let me say that at this time everyday, I'm in the makeup room at FOX in Washington, watching you guys on the screen. Now I have the out of body experience being on the other side of the screen. Thank you for having me on. We love watching you and congratulate you on your incredible success.

I have the honor on behalf of "The Five" to toss to the best evening news show in all of television in any country in any language.

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