Lieberman, Rogers Talk War on Terror
Top congressional leaders on national security on 'Fox News Sunday'
The following is a rush transcript of the September 11, 2011, edition of "Fox News Sunday With Chris Wallace." This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
CHRIS WALLACE, HOST: You are looking at Ground Zero in New York City on the left, and on the right, the beginning of people forming for the ceremony at the Pentagon where like all of us around the country people are remembering those who died on 9/11 and all those who have fought so bravely in the decade since to prevent another attack.
In Manhattan, they are about to mark the moment at 903 when a second hijacked air liner, United Flight 175 crashed into the World Trade Center south tower. What they are doing now, and you can see that child there, it does just break your heart sometimes, doesn't it?
These are family members who are reading the names of the 2,983 people who died, who lost their lives at Ground Zero at the Pentagon, and in Shanksville.
And in about two minutes we're approaching that point when there will be the second of the six moments of silence to mark the, as I say, flight 175, United 175 which crashed into the south tower.
And I guess one of the keys is that was the moment when we all realized we were at war. Up to this point, I think most people thought it was an unbelievable accident, but that somehow a plane strayed off course and by accident had hit the north tower.
And then at 903, the second tower was hit. That's when Andy Card went to talk to the president in that classroom in Florida. And that's when all of us realized this wasn't an accident. This was war. This was terror. And we were entering a different era.
We're going to listen to the reading of the names. As I say, the moment of silence and another, a second reading this time by the man who was president at that time, President George W. Bush. Let's listen in.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Paul Michael Baer (ph).
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Aniale Taharam Rahavani (ph)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bella Jay Beaucon (ph).
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jimmy V. Bigalason (ph)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Peter Alexander Feld (ph).
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: William G. Biggert (ph)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Brian Eugene Bilger.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And my brother-in-law Stephen Howard Berger (ph). We all miss you. There is not a day that goes by we don't think of you. You will always be in our hearts. We love you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And my brother William Reed Beskey (ph), we will always remember you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mark Bingham.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Carl Vincent Beady (ph).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Gary Eugene Bird.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Joshua David Birnbaum (ph).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: George John Bishop.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Chris Romeo Bashenda.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jeffrey Donald.
GEORGE W. BUSH, FRM. PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: President Lincoln not only understood the heartbreak of his country, he also understood the cost of sacrifice and reached out to console those in sorrow. In the fall of 1864, he learned that a widow had lost five sons in the Civil War. And he wrote her this letter.
"Dear madam, I have been shown in the files of the War Department a statement of the ad unit general of Massachusetts that you are the mother of five sons who have died gloriously on the field of battle. I feel how weak and fruitless must be any words of mine, which should attempt to beguile you from the grief of a loss so overwhelming. But I cannot refrain from tendering to you the consolation that may be found in the thanks of the republic they died to save. I pray that our heavenly father may assuage the anguish of your bereavement and leave you only the cherished memory of the loved and lost and the solemn pride that must be yours to laid so costly a sacrifice upon the altar of freedom. Yours very sincerely and respectfully, Abraham Lincoln."
(APPLAUSE)
PETER NEGRON, FATHER DIED IN WORLD TRADE CENTER: My father worked on the 88th floor of the World Trade Center. I was 13 when I stood here in 2003 and read a poem about how much I wanted to break down and cry. Since then, I stopped crying but I haven't stopped missing my dad. He was awesome.
My brother Austin had just turned two when he passed. I try to teach him all the things my father taught me: how to catch a baseball, how to ride a bike, and to work hard in school. My dad always said how important it was.
Since 9/11, my mother, brother and I moved to Florida. I got a job and enrolled in to college. I wish my dad had been there to teach me how to drive, ask a girl out on a date and see me graduate from high school and 100 other things I can't even begin to name.
He worked in an environmental department and cared about the earth and our future. I know he wanted to make a difference. I admire him for that. And I would have liked to have talked to him about such things.
I decided to become a forensic scientist. I hope that I can make my father proud of the young men that my brother and I have become. I miss you so much, dad.
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WALLACE: Of course, the world famous cellist Yo-Yo Ma performing.
Joining us now -- and as the events continue we will continue our discussion and we won't miss any key moments -- joining to us discuss where we go in the ongoing war on terror, is one of the leading voices on national security, Senator John McCain who comes to us from Nevada.
Senator, what are your thoughts on this day? What is your take- away on this 10th anniversary of 9/11?
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN, R-ARIZ.: I think it's a time of remembrance and sorrow and it's one that obviously changed America forever. Everybody has their special memories. One of mine, of course, was -- in fact, it's interesting, a name was just read, Mark Bingham, a young man who worked on Wall Street. I met him. He had a picture of me and him on the wall of his office.
He was on United 93 and called his mother. And I believe he was one of those that prevented the attack even on the White House, or on the Capitol. I'll never forget attending the memorial service at his alma mater, University of California Berkeley where among other things he was captain of the gay rugby team. I'll never forget him.
And the other, of course, was the World Series between the New York Yankees and the Arizona Diamondbacks. And I sat with Rudy Giuliani during that series.
MCCAIN: And out in Arizona, where there were die-hard Diamondback fans, his face was on the Jumbotron and everybody in that stadium cheered America's mayor, who did a magnificent job of sorrow and calm, reassurance to the American people.
And so, I have these special memories, but I think we have come a long way since then. I think we can be proud of the fact that there's not been another attack on the United States of America.
WALLACE: Incidentally, we will be talking with America's Mayor Rudy Giuliani in the next hour. A moment ago, as we mark the second plane hitting, and I think that was the moment that all of us realized this wasn't an accident, this was an act of terrorism -- did you know at that moment, 10 years ago, right away, what we were going to have to do?
MCCAIN: To tell you the truth, I did not. I don't think most Americans did.
I do think -- I'm not a great fan of commissions, but I think the 9/11 Commission headed by Lee Hamilton and Tom Kean did a very fine job. And they gave us a blueprint, I think, that both Republicans and Democrats and both administrations have followed. I wish we had followed all of their recommendations. There are some, including a tremendous overlap and duplication of supervision and jurisdiction in the Congress.
But overall, I think we have done a very god job.
And, Chris, whether we should have gone to Iraq or Afghanistan, I believe we should have. Whether it's mismanaged and whether we underestimated the enormity of the challenge we face, I think historians will judge. But I don't think we should ever forget that those attacks originated in Afghanistan.
And it's -- I think we did the right thing there. But I also think we have learned a lot of lessons. And, frankly, I don't think you are going to see the United States of America in another war in that part of the world.
WALLACE: You -- I want to talk about John McCain because have charted independent course over in these last two years. While generally supportive of President Bush, you sharply criticized him when it came to enhanced interrogation, which you felt crossed the line in to torture. You have certainly disagreed with some of President Obama's military decisions. How have you seen your role over this last decade?
MCCAIN: I've worked very hard to try to understand the complexities and enormity of the challenges that America faces in the 21st century. There is more, I think, complex challenges than we faced at any time in our history. I'm not saying they are most serious. I'm saying they are the most complex, depending on how we handle them.
On the issue of torture, this is probably not the time to bring this up, but Abu Ghraib and the torture of prisoners hurts a great deal and did provide a propaganda tool for our enemy, including Al Qaeda. And I regret that.
But I also think that many of the things that we did achieve were very laudable. I think we have a very different and vastly improved capability to combat this enemy than we had at this time 10 years ago.
WALLACE: Obviously, this anniversary is a time to look back. It's also a time to look forward. You have criticized President Obama for his decision to pull all of the U.S. surge troops, 30,000 troops out of Afghanistan by a year from now, by next September. That will leave 70,000 on the ground, but all the surge troops will be gone.
What about the argument that we have seriously degraded the Taliban, we have eviscerated Al Qaeda, that Karzai, the president of Afghanistan, will never be a reliable partner? And the argument that you hear from both Republicans and Democrats, it's time to focus on home?
MCCAIN: Well, I certainly understand that it's time to focus on home. As you know, my state of Arizona is hurting very, very badly. And I understand why people would want to focus on home.
On the issue of the troop withdrawals, I try to support the president as much as I can. These are very important issues. But there is no military person anywhere that recommended that these withdrawals would take place before the second fighting season. There is no military person that doesn't believe we need a residual force in Iraq far in excess of the size that apparently is being planned.
In Libya, that conflict could have been over a long, long time ago if we had used the full weight of American air power. You have can't lead from behind in this country.
And the fact is there is a perception in the world, rightly or wrongly, that the United States is in the decline and that we are in many ways withdrawal to fortress America. We have can't afford to do that.
WALLACE: I want to pick up on something you said a moment ago and I want to make sure I understood you correctly because you talked about these two wars and you said I don't believe we'll get into another war in that part of a world for a long time.
How can you predict that? Why would you predict that? MCCAIN:I don't think American public opinion would stand for it. I do believe that we have developed new ways of countering this threat. I don't think there is any doubt that Al Qaeda is back on their heels.
But there are places like Yemen and Somalia and other breeding grounds where this threat will be with us for a long period time.
And, by the way, could I just mention? The Arab Spring is repudiation of Al Qaeda. Arab Spring proves that people can peacefully demonstrate and change their government. It's a repudiation of a strategy and tactics of terror and murder that Al Qaeda has employed.
Don't get me wrong: there's going to be two steps forward and one step back in the Arab world, but I that think over time, that this repudiation of Al Qaeda will work to our advantage. But we are going to have problems there, and issues and threats for as long as you and I are around.
WALLACE: Finally, and I want to pick up on that, because you wrote this week that this war, this war on terror, will not end lightly and anytime soon. Even as you said we're not going to get into another one, you seem to indicate we could be in this "war on terror" and some people are suggesting for decades, comparing it to South Korea or the Cold War, a half a century.
MCCAIN: I think that as long as there are the conditions that exist in the world in a place like Yemen, in a place like Somalia, and other parts of Africa, in particular, but really in other parts of the world, it will be a breeding ground for this kind of hatred which has been there, but has just manifested itself with the tragedy of 9/11.
So -- but we have to also understand that this is also a conflict of ideas and ideals. And I am confident that the things we stand for and believe in overtime will prevail over the forces of evil, but it's going to be a long hard struggle.
WALLACE: Senator McCain, we're going to have to leave it on that note. Thank you so much for talking with us today, sir.
MCCAIN: Thanks for having me on.
WALLACE: Four hundred and three of New York's finest policemen, firefighters and port authority officers lost their lives on 9/11.
Eric Shawn as this report on the first responders, what happened to them that day and how they are doing now.
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ERIC SHAWN, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For the first responders and their families, 9/11 is a day they remember every day. PATRICK DOWELL, SON OF FIRST RESPONDER: We think about them every day. We think about them equally every day. So, the day of obviously is more of public day, but, you know on September 12th and 13th, I'll still be thinking of them when a lot of other people go back to their normal lives.
SHAWN: Patrick Dowell's father Kevin was one of the 343 firefighters who died that day. Just out of high school, Patrick spent months working at Ground Zero before joining the Army. His younger brother James is now a firefighter in Brooklyn, carrying on his dad's legacy.
JAMES DOWELL, SON OF FIRST RESPONDER: We look up to the guys. We put on the same uniform that they put on and that they dedicated so much of their life to. It's an honor.
SHAWN: Many responders are trying to move on.
GEORGE KLEIN, FIRST RESPONDER: Come down here and I still had that same feeling I had 10 years ago.
SHAWN: But the hours spent in the smoldering rubble at Ground Zero, they say, have left many sick or dead. And despite new federally financed health fund to provide them with care and benefits, some feel abandoned.
KLEIN: The government hasn't taken care of them. Finally, it's 10 years now and finally there will be money to take care of the guys.
SHAWN: You had men, like former Police Officer Ernest Vallebuona, who battled cancer, are staying positive.
ERNEST VALLEBUONA, FIRST RESPONDER: I only had a 30 percent chance of survival. It wasn't a great number. And here I am today to talk to you. But you know, it has changed me in the fact that I really don't sweat the small stuff anymore. And I'm just trying to live my life and enjoy my kids and my family.
SHAWN: Lessons of 9/11 for all of us.
In New York, Eric Shawn, Fox News.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WALLACE: The pictures never fail to break your heart.
We'll be back with more from Ground Zero in New York and from the ceremony just about to start at the Pentagon, as our special coverage of 9/11, 10 years later, continues.
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WALLACE: And you are looking at the 9/11 ceremonies in New York, on the left, where they are continuing to read the names of the almost 3,000 people who lost their lives that day and the ceremony that is about to start at the Pentagon. We will not miss a moment of it. We'll take you there as soon as it begins.
We turn back now to our Sunday insider group, Senator Dianne Feinstein, former Homeland Security chief Michael Chertoff, retired four-star General Jack Keane, and Paul Wolfowitz, deputy secretary of defense under President Bush.
I want to pick up on what we were discussing with John McCain, because he, kind of, was talking about a complicated future in which we have to continue the wars we're in; we have to continue to fight the enemy, but a realization that this country is getting war-weary and we're also in terrible financial trouble.
How do you chart that? It's a complicated path forward.
SEN. DIANNE FEINSTEIN, D-CALIF.: Well, there's no question that people want us home. There is no question that I think everybody at this table wants us home. The problem is that it's not over. The problem is that Al Qaida has metastasized. It's in different places. It's making progress in Yemen.
You have a Taliban that still controls a great deal of territory in Afghanistan. You have a weak Afghanistan government. You have Pakistan, which is ground zero for this and a nuclear power.
I think that Al Qaida will continue, in whatever way, shape or form, out of Yemen, with new explosives, to try and come after us. If we let them, they will. And so I think the key is not to. And the key is counterterrorism.
And I think the United States has gone a long way to -- and I think Abbottabad and the take-down of Osama bin Laden demonstrated that. It was the best piece of intelligence I think I've seen in all the time I've been on the Intelligence Committee. And it worked. And it was practiced. And it was carried out with impunity.
And I am really extraordinarily concerned that we not let down our guard, that we keep the intelligence community full-fledged, moving. I think McCain is right. You can't just pull out and let Iran dominate northern Iraq, let the new terrorist groups which are beginning in northern Iraq succeed.
You've got a complicated problem with the Sadrists. So all I'm trying to say is we have to keep our guard up and we have to be alert and we have to see that our forces really know what they are doing.
WALLACE: General Keane, though, there is this argument -- and it's an argument that you heard a lot in the White House -- about the path forward in Afghanistan, counterinsurgency versus counterterrorism.
And some people would say, look, of course we can't leave that part of the world. We do have enemies. But the enemy is the people who would strike us, and we could have a much smaller footprint with special operations forces and drones and all of those kind of things, and we don't need to rebuild Afghanistan or rebuild Iraq; we -- what we need to do is focus on the bad guys and take them out.
Now, is that unrealistic?
GENERAL JACK KEANE: It's pretty unrealistic, militarily. We tried that strategy for almost three years in Iraq and that strategy failed. That is, to focus -- focus on the insurgents as the enemy, use strikes against them to do that, train up Iraqi security forces that eventually would take over.
That failed. Why? Because the insurgents used the people to shield them. So we had to put in play a counterinsurgency strategy that protected the people and separated them from the insurgents.
And both of those, counterterrorism and counterinsurgency, go hand in glove. So those operations take more forces. And they take a considerably longer period of time.
It doesn't suggest, though, that we are going to rebuild Afghanistan. We have a plan to leave Afghanistan and turn it over to the Afghans in 2014. And I think that is reasonable. The president has complicated that by pulling the surge forces out, prematurely, in my judgment, and put some of that mission at risk as we move forward.
WALLACE: Paul Wolfowitz, you've thought about all of this for decades.
PAUL WOLFOWITZ, FORMER DEPUTY SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Chris, I think, if we come home too fast -- I understand why we need to, not just that we want to; we need to -- if we come home too fast, I think we'll get hit again in some way that we can't predict. And if we get hit again, we'll be at war again.
I think the prudent course of action here is to move slowly, gradually. The fact is the Iraqis have stepped up enormously to their task. The Afghans need to be stepping up to theirs.
But the key to coming home is to keep supporting them, not to leave them out on their own to do things they can't do but to push them forward to do as much as they can.
You know, Korea has been a long experience, and thinking about 50 years isn't fun. But the fact is Korea is a spectacular success story now. We didn't abandon Korea after an unpopular war in 1953. We stayed with them. I think it's very important that we don't abandon Iraq; we don't abandon Afghanistan, for our own sakes, not just for theirs.
WALLACE: Michael Chertoff, let me switch with you to the question of homeland security. What -- what has been done? What needs to be done?
MICHAEL CHERTOFF, FORMER HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: Well, we've made it much more difficult for people to bring operatives in from overseas as they did on September 11. We have done a lot more, as the senator said, to unify and be able to act on our intelligence.
But I think what we have to watch is where the threat begins to move. And we've seen an uptick in home-grown terrorism.
Not surprisingly, the terrorists overseas are -- are trying to recruit people in place in order to situate them to carry out attacks. We had Nidal Hasan. That was, unfortunately, successful.
And I think we're going to have to focus more on what is going on locally in making sure we're watching for emerging threats.
WALLACE: Let me ask you a question that I get asked a lot. And, you know, it -- where are the areas that homeland security hit us? The airports.
Are we going to have to take off our shoes for the rest of our lives?
Are we going to have to take our liquids and put them in a little, you know, plastic bag for the rest of our lives?
CHERTOFF: I think the technology is developing in a way that's likely to make that less necessary over time. I also think there is a greater move now and a greater willingness perhaps to use intelligence-based screening where we have different levels of screening, based on what we know about people, if people are willing to give us information to assess them.
So I think you will see some changes. Do I think we'll ever get to the days where you walk on the plane off the street, without ever having to go through security? Not in my lifetime.
WALLACE: I want to pick up on this, but I just want to point out to people, over on the right side of your screen, you can see the Pentagon where the ceremony is about to begin. You will not miss a moment of it. As soon as it begins, we will take you there. And it promises to be a very moving event.
And I think that gets to one of the key points, though, Mr. Chertoff. You know, some people say, when you screen everybody, you screen nobody. My mother, I'm not going to give her age or she won't talk to me anymore -- is getting screened.
WALLACE: I'm getting screened.
You know, the screener says, "Oh, hi, Mr. Wallace," and then proceeds to screen me. I'm not saying because I'm on TV, but there are obviously people who are greater threats and people who are lesser threats.
Is it inconceivable that -- I mean, we do know who our enemies are, or at least the vast majority of our enemies.
CHERTOFF: I think it's true what you say to a degree, but unfortunately we don't always know who our enemies are. For example, there is a tendency to believe they will look a certain way.
If you actually look at the homegrown terrorist like Khalid Marose (ph), Daniel Maldonado, Jose Padilla, these do not look like what you think a terrorist looks like. With respect to children, unfortunately we have seen terrorists take small children, put bombs on them, and send them out to be blown up.
So I wish we could say that there is a group that is self- evidently excluded, but I have to say, although you can modify based on what you know about individuals, in the end, the whole population, unfortunately, is part of this battle.
WALLACE: They are about to begin. And excuse me, but they are about to begin the ceremony at the Pentagon.
Why don't we go there right now?
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let us pray.
MAJ. GEN. DONALD RUTHERFORD, U.S. ARMY CHIEF OF CHAPLAINS: God, our help (INAUDIBLE), and our hope for you to come. We are grateful that you have always sustained and protected our great nation. Our forefathers look to you, their creator, when they declared our independence. Year after year, and generation after generation, you have led and blessed America. Even that dark day 10 years ago, you were with us in the midst of heartache and gloom at the time, the light of freedom shining in our hearts.
We gather this day, on this 10th anniversary, to remember the people and events of September 11th, remember those who have lost their lives on that morning, the families that mourn them with loss. Lord, God, open our hearts today and every day to pay tribute to those who have died.
We remember to honor those who rendered aid with such courage and compassion. Remember those who served in the days that followed and now serve on the front lines of freedom.
I want to gather us in this moment today. We covet your presence. Remind us that, truly, you are hope for years to come. We ask this and pray, as always, in your holy name. Amen.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please be seated.
Ten years ago, at 9:37 a.m., the Pentagon was attacked. Please join us in observing a moment of silence to remember those who perished.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ladies and Gentlemen, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Admiral Michael Mullen.
ADM. MICHAEL MULLEN, CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: Mr. Vice President, Mr. Secretary, distinguished guests, and most especially, families, friends, and loved ones of those killed near this spot, on this day back in 2001, good morning and welcome.
Let me begin by offering, on behalf of the 2.2 million men and women who wear the uniform of the United States armed forces, by passing my deepest condolences to you for the loss you suffered and the grief you still endure. No music can assuage, no tongue can express, no prayer alone may dampen the yearning that must fire yet inside you.
Lives ended in this place. Dreams were shattered. Futures were instantly altered. Hopes were tragically dashed.
You come here, we all come here to remember those hopes and to mourn and to honor. But the greatest honor we bestow, the finest tribute we pay, lies not in our gathering, it lies in our hearts, it lies in our deeds. It lies in the manner in which and the degree to which we have preserved the very ideals that others tried to kill when they killed innocent men, women and children.
I was struck by the words of a young woman who just wrote a letter to her dead father, a firefighter killed at the World Trade Center."Dear Dad," she said, "I still feel your presence. You are with me every day. You inspire me to live my life, to help others, and to be grateful for each moment. I don't know what the next 10 years will bring, but I do know that I have enough strength, wisdom and support to take on anything."
Tara Feinberg remains proud of her father Alan, and of the sacrifice he made so others need not. And she has committed herself to proving worthy of that sacrifice. Hers is truly the greatest monument, the most enduring memorial, as it is with all of you.
You, the families, have shown the rest of us the way, quietly honoring the memory of your loved ones by how you live and what you do.It's in the children and grandchildren with major league dreams, the college degrees earned, the businesses started, the weddings celebrated, the charity given, and the love and the laughter shared. These are the things the terrorists could not eradicate.
They could bring down the walls, but they could not bring down America. They could kill our citizens, but they could not kill our citizenship. And in that spirit, and with that pride, a whole new generation has been inspired to serve, many of them in uniform.
Indeed, from this place of wrath and tears, America's military ventured forth as the long arm and clenched fist of an angry nation at war. And we have remained at war ever since, visiting upon our enemies they vengeance they were due and providing for the American people the common defense they demand.
Two million men and women have deployed to combat since 9/11. Volunteers, all. Some of them knew a colleague killed here. Some of them were but grade-schoolers on that day. All of them have remained dedicated to making sure a day like that never happens again.
They've done this with great skill and bravery, but they have also done it with the realization learned over time and at great cost that sometimes we defend best our national interests when we help others defend their own, and that sometimes in war it isn't the enemy lives you take that matter most, but rather the innocent lives you save. It's a lesson you have helped teach us.
And when that war takes lives of our troops, when it snuffs out the futures of so many bright young stars, we again look to your example. We wrap our arms around the families of our fallen the way you have wrapped yours around each other.
The Scottish poet Thomas Campbell, in his poem "Hallowed Ground," tells us that, "To live in hearts we leave behind is not to die." Today, we stand on this hallowed ground to honor those who still live on in our hearts. But as we mark the end of this decade of war and remembrance, I hope we will also follow in Tara Feinberg's footsteps, heeding the better angels of our nature, never forgetting, being grateful for each moment, helping others, and most of all, living life and living it well.
That is victory.
Thank you.
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(MUSIC)
(APPLAUSE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ladies and Gentlemen, the Secretary of Defense, Leon Panetta.
LEON PANETTA, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Mr. Vice President, Mr. Chairman, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen, and in particular, the families of those that were lost on 9/11, today Americans mark 10 years since that calm September morning when our country, our people, and our way of life came under attack in the worst terrorist attack in the history of the United States of America.
As we come together this morning, at this memorial, we do so knowing that the entire nation joins us in remembering the innocent lives that were so cruelly taken from us at the Pentagon, at the World Trade Center, and in Shanksville, Pennsylvania. For those who survived the attack, and those who lost loved ones on that terrible day, there are no words to ease the pain that you still feel.
At this very moment, on this very spot, it is difficult to believe that 10 years ago, this was the scene of incredible devastation, of horrific fire and smoke, of heroic first responders who were struggling to bring victims to safety, searching for survivors, fighting the flames at this spot, at this very moment. And though 10 years have passed, the wounds are still present; the emotions, still raw.
You have always carried the memory of that day with you, and in its aftermath, you have shown a strength and a courage that embodies the character of America. In your determination to remember and to honor the victims, to recover from the injuries, to rebuild your lives, the entire nation finds inspiration and resilience and resolve. As we recall that day of tragedy and trauma, of bravery and heroism, we remember it as a defining moment for all.
WALLACE: As Secretary of Defense Panetta continues speaking at this very moving ceremony, we're going to get some final thoughts in this hour from our panel of insiders.
We talked about a lot of stuff -- homeland security, the war on terror, the emotions.
Final thought from you, Senator Feinstein?
FEINSTEIN: I wish I could say it was over. I wish I could say that America doesn't have to fear any attack, but I don't believe I can.
I think we have to remain vigilant. We have to complete our mission in Afghanistan and Iraq. I think we have to be more concerned with Pakistan, with Yemen, with Somalia. I think we have to be wary of new explosives.
So, for me, the burden you want to remove you can't remove. It's still with us.
WALLACE: Michael Chertoff?
CHERTOFF: I can still remember the anger and the anguish of that day, but, to me, the most constructive thing is to use that as a way of rededicating ourselves to perseverance and remembering the enemy is not us. The enemy is in a cave somewhere, or in a desert somewhere trying to attack us. And that's what we have to keep in mind.
WALLACE: We have less than a minute left, and I want to share with the two of you, General Keane?
KEANE: It woke us up to the dangers of radical Islam. We have been in the struggle now for 10 years. We're dominating this enemy, to be sure, and we've got more work to do.
WALLACE: And Paul Wolfowitz?
WOLFOWITZ: I think it's incredibly important to remember. I think the way these ceremonies have been done is just stunningly beautiful and well done.
And for some of our -- I mean, you think about all those 9-year- olds who weren't even alive on that day. It's important for people who weren't alive then to remember. We don't know what's coming next, but we've got to keep -- remember what happened so it doesn't happen again.
WALLACE: Never forget.
Thank you all so much.
Our coverage on "Fox News Sunday" of "9/11: Then and Now" continues after this quick break.
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WALLACE: I'm Chris Wallace. It's a day to remember those who died 10 years ago and to never forget those who brought terror to our cities.
(voice over): We'll get firsthand accounts of September 11th, explore how far we've come these last 10 years, plus look ahead at how the war on terror will be fought in the next decade.
We'll talk about the continuing threat with the president's top counterterrorism adviser John Brennan. We'll take you to Ground Zero and tell stories of terror and triumph. We'll discuss it all with America's mayor, Rudy Giuliani.
And from policy to politics, what are the lasting effects from the attacks?
We'll ask our Sunday panel to look back over these last 10 years and ahead at the challenges we still face, all right now on "Fox News Sunday: 9/11, Then and Now."
And hello again from Fox News in Washington, as America remembers the attacks of 9/11 10 years ago. Each site where hijackers deliberately crashed a plane that day held a memorial service this morning.
Standing by with more are Rick Leventhal at Ground Zero in New York, Jennifer Griffin at the Pentagon and Laura Ingle in Shanksville, Pennsylvania.
Laura, let's start with you.
LAURA INGLE, FOX NEWS: Large crowds have gathered once again here today on this weekend, where there is so much very, very proud air going around right now.
I want to show you what's going on, as we watch this ceremony and that long marble wall that you see here behind me. That was a ceremony that took place yesterday. The Wall of Names was unveiled, a symbolic grouping of white marble slabs, each engraved with the names of the 40 passengers and crew members who died here 10 years ago today.
The wall follows the flight path of United Flight 93 and leads to the Sacred Ground field where the plane crashed, inverted into -- into the ground. The 17-ton boulder that marks the point of impact is accessible only to family members. It will stay that way for the years to come. However, the public is now able to get a closer look to pay respects along a memorial plaza that was opened yesterday.
Again, yesterday was the dedication of the site's permanent memorial. Today will be the actual memorial service. Vice President Biden, along with former Presidents George W. Bush and Bill Clinton, were on hand for yesterday's dedication and called the passengers and flight crew members "citizen patriots who fought the first battle in the ongoing war against global terrorism."
This is the only 9/11 memorial that is not yet fully funded. There is another $10 million more to be raised to complete it, to build the visitors center and the education center.
Former President Clinton made a surprise pledge to work in a bipartisan effort with House Speaker John Boehner to help raise that last $10 million. That was a move that surprised a lot of people here but certainly filled the hearts of the family members. Again, we are waiting for President Barack Obama to arrive here for today's ceremony. Back to you.
WALLACE: Laura Ingle, reporting from Shanksville. Thanks so much for that.
We want to go now to the ceremony itself. It's now 10:03 Eastern Time and they are observing a moment of silence in Shanksville. This, of course, was the moment 10 years ago today when United Flight 93 was deliberately crashed into the ground by the 40 passengers and crew as America began to fight back against the hijackers.
(CHOIR SINGING)
WALLACE: We want to move on now to Ground Zero in New York, where there was a very emotional ceremony earlier. Fox News correspondent Rick Leventhal is there. Rick?
RICK LEVENTHAL, FOX NEWS: And, Chris, dark storm clouds have moved in to reflect the somber mood of this ceremony, as pairs of family members read groups of names of the nearly 3,000 who lost their lives on 9/11. They often give personal messages at the end when they mention their father or brother or sister or loved one.
After they read those names, they are able now for the first time to walk over to the September 11th memorial, which is now open to families today and to the public on Monday for the first time ever.
It is a park filled with trees and grass and two very large waterfalls built in the footprints of the Twin Towers. And those waterfalls are ringed by brass plaques that include the names of those 3,000 victims. And there is a calm and a peacefulness here, Chris, that did not exist before.
In years past, family members could walk down a ramp into a pit and place flowers in a makeshift pool. Now they have actual pools that they can stand outside of and reflect on. I want to read you a quote from Mayor Michael Bloomberg, who spoke during the ceremony. He says, "Ten years have passed since a perfect blue-sky morning turned into the blackest of nights. Since then, we have lived in sunshine and in shadow."
Chris, the hope here is that there will be far fewer shadows now and far more sunshine, even as these towers begin to rise around us to replace what was lost 10 years ago. Chris?
WALLACE: Rick, we all hope that. Rick Leventhal at Ground Zero. Rick, thank you for that.
Let's turn now to the Pentagon, where they remembered the savage attack there 10 years ago. Fox News national security correspondent Jennifer Griffin is covering that part of the story. Jennifer?
JENNIFER GRIFFIN, FOX NEWS: Hi, Chris. Well, Vice President Joe Biden is speaking right now. Earlier in the day, they unfurled a flag over the spot where the -- where the plane hit, the exact spot where Flight 77 hit.
Admiral Mullen took a moment during his speech to remind us that more than 2 million servicemembers have served in Iraq and Afghanistan since 9/11. And there is perhaps no greater reminder of the sacrifice of the military in that 77 servicemembers were wounded in Afghanistan earlier today in a truck bombing at a base in Wardak Province.
We expect to have -- the president will be laying a wreath here today -- and again, yesterday, when he was walking through Arlington National Cemetery -- and lay a wreath here at the Pentagon with former President George W. Bush, a lot of emotion here at the Pentagon, as they remember the 184 lives that were lost.
Again, the memorial, to those souls who were lost opened three years ago on 9/11. It's an elegant memorial with benches. During the moment of silence, they turned off the water running underneath those benches, the family members here today expressing a lot of emotion. Chris?
WALLACE: Jennifer Griffin at the Pentagon. Jennifer, thank you for that.
President Obama is marking this 10th anniversary of the 9/1 attacks by visiting each of the memorial sites. And Fox News chief White House correspondent Ed Henry has been tracking the president's day.
Good morning, Ed.
ED HENRY, FOX NEWS: Hello, Chris. It's hard to think of a more poignant example of this coming together than the Obamas and Bushes putting aside any political differences at Ground Zero to literally hug and comfort families of victims today, as they visited the site.
You know, we dissect every single word this president says every single day, but this is one of those rare occasions where he's not going to say a lot today. Aides point out he doesn't want to step on this moment as he visits each one of these hallowed sites, as you mentioned, Ground Zero, Shanksville, Pennsylvania, as well as the Pentagon, though he will give remarks tonight at what is being billed as a Concert for Hope at the Kennedy Center tonight here in Washington.
And at Ground Zero, very briefly, the president read from the very powerful 46th Psalm.
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PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble. Therefore we will not fear, even though the earth be removed and though the mountains be carried into the midst of the sea, though its waters roar and be troubled, though the mountains shake with its swelling.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HENRY: And he was not president 10 years ago, obviously, and reacted to the tragedy that day. Like many, more like a father than a politician, he has recalled in interviews that he was literally burping his newborn Sasha as all of this horror played out 10 years ago. He has said since that he was thinking about the horror but also the sacrifice that it sparked.
And in his radio address yesterday, the president noted that sacrifice continues now, troops serving in Afghanistan, Iraq, and homeland security officials staying on top of this terror threat all weekend, Chris.
WALLACE: Ed Henry, reporting from the White House. Ed, thanks for that.
Joining us now from the White House briefing room is the president's top counterterrorism adviser, John Brennan. Mr. Brennan, welcome back to "Fox News Sunday."
JOHN BRENNAN, PRESIDENT OBAMA'S TOP COUNTERTERRORISM ADVISER: Thank you, Chris, good morning.
WALLACE: Let's pick up on what Ed just mentioned. What can you tell us about this possible Al Qaeda plot to attack the U.S. homeland again on this 10th anniversary?
BRENNAN: Well, what I can say is we're still saying on top of all information that is coming in related to this possible threat.
The president convened his national security team yesterday in the White House situation room. We had another meeting this morning at 8:00 of all the departments and agencies so that we could go over that information and make sure all actions are being taken.
So, what we're doing is making sure that we can assure the American public that if there is something out there, we will do our best to try to thwart any attack that might be planned.
WALLACE: At this point, do you believe it's real? Do you have solid information that in fact three people, maybe two of them Americans citizens, or American passports, have come in this country, that they're planning to use a car bomb in either Washington or New York City? How hard is the evidence?
BRENNAN: Well, we know that it is specific related to both Washington and New York, trying to carry out some type of attack here. It is credible in terms of the source that it comes from. And what we're trying to do is to put the pieces together.
We know that Al Qaeda has been trying for many years to carry out an attack here on our homeland. We know that they have tried to carry out major attacks similar to 9/11 type of attack that took place ten years ago. But we also know that they are now trying other types of attacks, maybe smaller attacks using car bombs or other types of things.
So we are trying to be as vigilant as possible. We are trying to ensure that we are able to tap in to all of those data bases that we have to correlate the bits and piece of information that are coming in. But we are taking this very seriously.
WALLACE: That was the last question I was going to ask you in this regard. You are taking this seriously. You are treating this as we speak today as if it is a real plot?
BRENNAN: I think we have an obligation to the American people and I think we have an obligation to families of the victims of the 9/11 attacks to do everything possible that we can to see what it is that might be out there, that is facing the American public right now. The president expects that of us. And when this information first came in, he told us very clearly I want everything to be done to find out whether or not this information from the sources has any credibility to it.
So we've been doing that. We've been working closely with the state and local partners. Bulletins have gone out. We have had a number of individuals who have called in about suspicious vehicles. That is something that we want people to do. The to see something, say something campaign has been very effective.
So this is a nationwide effort. We want to make sure that we have the ability to detect something before an attack comes off.
WALLACE: Let's take a bigger look, Mr. Brennan. You say this country is much safer now than it was ten years ago both from the threat side in terms of taking out our enemy and also from the vulnerability side in terms of plugging gaps in homeland security. Explain what you mean.
BRENNAN: Well, Al Qaeda ranks in term of leadership, operatives as well as and their ability to train and deploy individuals to carry out attacks has been seriously degraded by the constant efforts that we have been undertaking over the past decade. We're doing a lot of this with our partners overseas. So their ability to carry out an attack, launch it from the areas of Pakistan or in that area has been seriously undermined. At the same time, we have learned a lot of lessons from the 9/11 attack, as well as other attempted attacks in the past several years. What we're trying to do is address any vulnerabilities that might be out there. We're trying to enhance our security measures and the procedures that we have at the airports and other ports of entry. The watch system is working well as well as the integration of effort throughout the country.
Again, it has to be the federal government working with the state and local officials, local law enforcement so that we can react quickly if anything comes in that suggests that it's part of a terrorist plot.
WALLACE: Let's talk about ongoing threats, Mr. Brennan.
First of all, how concerned are you? What is the threat in Libya that Gadhafi's cache of shoulder-mounted anti-aircraft missiles, the so-called man-pads or the chemical weapons ingredients, that that could fall in the hands of terrorists? How serious of a threat is that?
BRENNAN: Well, we are working closely with Libyan authorities in Tripoli and other areas of the country so we can work with them and help them to ensure that the weapons that are available in the country do not fall in the hands of terrorists there are concerns about man- pads, the shoulder-fire missile to be used against aircraft and there were a large number of these in the Libyan inventory.
So we are working with them to find out where they are, make sure they don't fall in to the hands of terrorists. But this is an ongoing effort and we are going to continue to work closely with them, as well as with our other partners.
WALLACE: Let me ask you, let me follow up if i can. the chairman of the house intelligence committee Mike Rogers says that we should have U.S. forces, not talking about a big army, but we should have U.S. personnel on the ground to secure the man-pads, the shoulder- fired anti-aircraft missiles, and also any chemical weapons ingredients.
BRENNAN: What has happened in Libya in the past several months is the Libyan people rising up against authoritarian leader. They have done this job admirably, courageously. We are working with them, as well as with our other allies and partners overseas.
We will lend the assistance that we need to, to the Libyan officials so that they can find those weapons and bring them under their control. The president had been very clear that we are committed to doing what we can to support the Libyan authorities. And so what we're going to do is continue to monitor the situation closely, provide them information and intelligence they need so they can find the weapons.
So we're looking at it again very intensely.
WALLACE: What about Yemen? Is the civil war in that country impeding our ability to go after one of the most active branches of al Qaida?
BRENNAN: Well, there are a number of problems that the Yemeni government faces. There is the political crisis right now as far as the different opposition groups that want change and rightly want change within the Yemeni political system. There is an effort on the part of al Qaida in the Arabian Peninsula, particularly in the south of country, moving against the Yemeni cities and towns and the Yemeni military.
There has been progress that the Yemeni army has made recently against al Qaida. We are working closely with the Yemeni authorities so that we can take the appropriate actions to support their counterterrorism efforts.
This is something that we are going to have to stay on top of. Al Qaida in the Arabian Peninsula is a dangerous organization, it's a danger to Yemenis and it's a danger to us as well.
WALLACE: I want to look at this from another aspect. Despite the president's best efforts, much of the counterterrorism architecture, legal structure, that was put in place by President Bush remains in place today: Guantanamo, indefinite detention, military commissions. Does it turn out that some of that was more necessary in fighting the war on terror than President Obama or Candidate Obama thought?
BRENNAN: Well, there are certain aspects and foundation of our counterterrorism program that has been in place since 9/11 that has continued from the last administration to this administration. There also are some significant differences that we have been trying to pursue such as the closer of the Guantanamo, transferring a number of those individuals abroad as well as prosecuting them, the reform military commissions is something that we -- that the president felt very strongly about.
We have a number of tools at our disposal. We are committed to making sure that we do proceed on the counterterrorism front in adherence to the law, as well as consistent with the values that I think the president has articulated numerous times.
So again, counterterrorism professionals throughout the U.S. government and departments and agencies see this as a mission that proceeds from one administration to another. There are elements of our policy that have some distinctions from the last one but I think what today is a special day to note is just how committed and strong and resilient this country has been against the terrorist threat and what we have accomplished in the last ten years.
WALLACE: And finally Mr. Brennan, we have got about a minute left. I've been asking most of my guests today and I want to ask you, what are your thoughts on this tenth anniversary? And what do you hope Americans will focus on?
BRENNAN: Well first and foremost, it's a day of remembrance and reflection on all the victims so tragically taken on that day ten years ago. Our thoughts and ray years are with them and -- prayers are with them and the individuals who had family, friends, colleagues who were killed.
Also, after ten years, we had our meeting this morning. So many people in the U.S. government have been working this issue very hard over the last decade. They have been committed to do what they can to protect the fellow Americans. And I think the American people should feel a great sense of pride, as well as accomplishment in terms of what this country has been able to do as tribute and honor of those brave Americans and others who died a decade ago.
WALLACE: Mr. Brennan, we're going to have to leave it there. We want to thank you for joining us today. We also want to thank you, sir, for your service to our country this last decade.
BRENNAN: Thank you.
WALLACE: Former president George W. Bush attended the ceremony today at Ground Zero. He hasn't talked much in public about this tenth anniversary. But he did an interview recently with our sister network National Geographic and he spoke about the moment he became a wartime president.
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BUSH: War came upon us unexpectedly. And at that point in time, you just deal with the issues. And there are a certain gravity, of course, that comes when you start making decisions that involve life.
BUSH: That's one of these moments where you weigh the consequences, or think about the politics, you decide. And I made the decisions as best I could in the fog of war. But I was determined, determined to protect the country. And I was determined to find out who did it and go get them.
September the 11th affected my presidency and it caused me to make many decisions, some of which were extremely controversial, all of which were designed to protect the homeland.
I didn't have a strategy. I mean, I was living day by day. I realized on September the 11th, I was a wartime president. On September 12th, I acted in my duties as a wartime president.
The terrorists never won. They may have thought they won. And they inflicted terrible damage on people's lives and on our economy. But they were never going to defeat America.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WALLACE: George W. Bush looking back on this 10th anniversary of 9/11.
Up next, "America's Mayor" Rudy Giuliani and how the city he once led has changed since the attacks 10 years ago today.
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WALLACE: Perhaps no one is more closely associated with the events of 9/11 than the mayor of New York City then, Rudy Giuliani. And ever since, he has been leading the fight to keep this country safe from another devastating attack.
Mayor, welcome back to "Fox News Sunday."
RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER NEW YORK CITY MAYOR: Good morning.
WALLACE: I want to start by asking you about your thoughts on this 10th anniversary. You said recently that 9/11 is not part of our history, it's part of our present reality. Explain what you mean.
GIULIANI: Well, what I mean by that is the same threats that existed then, the same irrational cause of Islamist extremist terrorism that existed then exists now. They are planning to kill us the way they were planning to kill us then. You know, I actually said that before these recent threats became public about the possibility of an attack in New York or Washington. And I hope they're not true and I hope they get resolved. But this is what we live with now.
There have been 40 attempts at least to attack us since September 11th. And in the last three years, that has increased rather than decreased. So this is a real problem for us that we've got to take very seriously.
WALLACE: Let's go back to your enduring memories of that terrible day 10 years ago. You say the first and one of the worst big blows that you suffered was when you found out that Father Michael Judge, the chaplain of the fire department, had been lost.
GIULIANI: Father Judge I had just seen maybe half hour before. I was going toward the fire department command post, he was coming from it. I reached over to him and I grabbed his hand and I said, father, you know, pray for us. I always used to say that to him. And he would always kid with me and he would always say, oh, Mayor, it's better if you pray yourself, it's more unusual, or something like that.
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GIULIANI: And I said -- and he was very serious, though. He had a very serious expression on his face. I had never seen that before. And then an hour, an hour-and-a-half later I was at the commander center at the police academy, and the first person that I was notified died was Father Judge.
They told me that his body had been found outside the World Trade Center and that he was being carried by the firefighters who all loved him. He was the chaplain of the fire department.
And he was being carried to Saint Peter's Church. And it was a tremendous loss for me because he was the man that I would have leaned on to help me get through it. He was someone that was with me many, many times when firefighters were injured or died. And he taught me how to explain death to people, how to talk to them about their father or their husband just dying. And he was the man I would have leaned on. And here he was gone. And I felt really alone.
WALLACE: The mayor of New York City, and as just part of the job, sees a lot of terrible things. You see murders, you see fires, you see horrible accidents. On that day, on 9/11, was there ever a moment when you thought either you or the city wouldn't be able to handle this?
GIULIANI: Sure. I mean, there were times when that would be a fleeting thought in your mind. When I first saw a man throw himself out of the 101st, the 102nd floor, I didn't have time to really comprehend it. It just was a shock to see someone throw themselves, you know, out of a building because they were fleeing the flames behind them. Then I saw people being hit by debris that were coming down. I saw people die before the buildings came down from debris coming off the buildings. There were times it would enter your mind. Can we handle this? This is worst than anything we've ever faced before.
But you just have to put it out of your mind and you've got to concentrate on, well, how can we handle the next step that has to be taken? Evacuating the city, keeping people from coming in to the city that might be -- to prevent other possible attacks?
So, I think the fact that I was so engaged in what I had to do probably helped me get through it.
WALLACE: Let's take a look. Part of our theme is 9/11: then and now. Let's talk about the now. You just mentioned the fact, and I think a lot of people would be surprised to learn, 40 attacks against the U.S. homeland, unsuccessful attacks but attempts at attacks in the last 10 years.
As a former federal prosecutor, as a former mayor, what do you worry about now when it comes to protecting the homeland?
GIULIANI: Well, I believe we're better protected. I think we are in New York and America. We hear about these threats now. Before we didn't hear about a lot of them. And we prevented them. I think the only one we haven't prevented is Major Hasan in Fort Hood. So we have had a pretty good record of preventing it.
What I worry about is you have to be perfect, you have got to be 100 percent successful. And these people are trying all the time. I worry a lot about homegrown Islamic extremist terrorists, because they're harder to detect.
When they are overseas there is a lot of communication that has got to go on between overseas and here that allows us to pick these things up. But when they're homegrown it's a little bit harder, it's a little bit harder to detect. And maybe we don't have quite the intelligence forces focused on homegrown as we do in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, those parts of the world.
So that worries me a lot.
WALLACE: You talk about the homeland security side of it. Let me switch. How do you think we're doing in fighting the war on terror?
GIULIANI: I think we are doing pretty well in fighting the war on terror. I am surprised that President Obama has continued as many of the programs of President Bush and built on some of them like the drones, and that sort of thing. I'm -- I was happy about that, in that sense.
I'm worried about the drawdown of troops in Afghanistan. I've always thought the timetables were irrational and dangerous to our troops and to us. I think you can't fight a military mission or a war with a timetable. It's counterproductive. It tells your enemies you are going to leave. It tells your possible friends they can't count on you and they have got to make other alliances. I think a lot of our problems in Afghanistan and our inability to put together a coherent government there comes from the timetable that we have set up which says people like Karzai and others they have to make deals for when we leave.
I think that it was one of the most irrational things I ever heard, to put a timetable on a war.
WALLACE: Let me follow up on that, because you talk about the need, and you describe it as a long-term presence, U.S. military presence in the Middle East. And you even talk about our role in Germany after World War II, our role in South Korea after that conflict.
I mean, that is a half century commitment. Are you talking about us being in that part of the world that long?
GIULIANI: I'm talking for us being in that part of the world for as long as there are people in that part of the world, significant numbers of people threatening and planning to come here and kill us.
If we can stop that in six months or a year or five years or 10 years, well, then fine. But until that area of the world stops being the center of a lot of the plots that come here and kill Americans, we're best advised to have a significant military presence there.
In addition to engaging them there, it also brings us a lot of intelligence. When our military is some place, we get a tremendous amount of information that isn't available to us if they're not there. We come into contact with people. We detain people. We question people. It increases the quality of our intelligence.
And it just makes sense for to us have a presence, if we can, in those parts of the world where people are planning to kill us.
WALLACE: You know, you talk about 9/11 10 years ago and you say the first moment that gave you hope was when you saw that some of the firefighters had raised an American flag over the rubble at -- at Ground Zero, almost an Iwo Jima moment that, you know, we were ready and we were prepared and we were going to fight back.
As you sit here 10 years later looking -- looking back, what strikes you most, how much this country has changed or how little it's changed?
GIULIANI: I think what strikes me, maybe, the most is how much we have proven to ourselves, how much we've changed. I think that -- and maybe we don't reflect on this. We don't reflect on the fact that we faced the worst attack in our history and we survived it. And we're now at least as strong, if not stronger.
You know, it's -- in downtown Manhattan, which will be focused on -- lower Manhattan, which will be focused on a lot today, twice as many people live there today as before September 11. Just think about that. That was the epicenter of the attack. That is the place that is still under threat. And twice as many people live there as before September 11.
And that shows you how resilient the American people are, how tough they are, and how maybe that's one of your best defenses against terrorism.
And I think that's the thing that strikes me as the most prominent thing. We endured the worst they could do to us, and it leave a terrible hole in our hearts and we'll never get over it, but we sure are stronger than we were back then. And by every indication, the city of New York is bigger, stronger, wealthier, and better than it was before September 11.
WALLACE: Mayor Giuliani, I want to thank you. I want to thank you for joining us. I want to thank you for your extraordinary service on that terrible day, and for talking with us about what 9/11 meant then and what it will mean for our country for a long time to come. Thank you very much, sir.
GIULIANI: Thank you very much, Chris.
WALLACE: Up next, our Sunday group on 9/11, then and now.
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WALLACE: And you are watching Paul Simon at the ceremony in New York City, at Ground Zero, as it continues. The moment when the North Tower collapsed, at 10:28, just ended. And the family names -- family members continuing, after Simon, to read the names of the 2,983 people who were murdered that day, that terrible day at Ground Zero, at the Pentagon and in Shanksville, Pennsylvania.
Time now for our Sunday group, Brit Hume, Fox News senior political analyst; Dana Priest of The Washington Post and co-author of the new book "Top Secret America: The Rise of the New American Security State"; Bill Kristol from The Weekly Standard; and Fox News political analyst Juan Williams.
Well, we've all been watching the events today at the various sites on this 10th anniversary of 9/11. Brit, your thoughts?
BRIT HUME, FOX NEWS: Chris, watching these remembrances really does revive, for me, anyway, and I'm sure in many others, the same heartache -- and even, you know, coming in here this morning, the city is under a high alert; a lot of areas are blocked off -- some of the same anxiety that I think we all experienced in the weeks -- days, weeks, months after 9/11 about another terrorist attack.
And I think, for all the sorrow that we feel and will always feel about it, there is, at least on this anniversary, this extraordinary overriding fact; and that is, who would have imagined in the aftermath of that day that we would be here 10 years later, there having been no successful major terrorist attack on...
(CROSSTALK)
WALLACE: I want to pick up exactly on that point, because I agree. I don't think anyone at this table thought it was going to be weeks, maybe days, certainly weeks or months that we would have another attack. It has been 10 years. Some of that's been luck, the Christmas Day bomber, whose device -- the "underwear bomber" whose device didn't go off, but a lot of it has been hard work, both overseas and in this country.
Dana, your thoughts? You've been studying this. Why do you think no attacks in 10 years?
DANA PRIEST, WASHINGTON POST: I think it's partly that they did defeat, quickly on, key elements of the Al Qaida network that were so clever to put this together in the first place.
But I also think there are segments of our intelligence and military community who really quickly learned how to go after these groups. They are groups that are very secretive, so we don't hear much about them.
But the CIA analysts who have followed bin Laden since the attacks and before that -- there are paramilitary operations, the joint special operations command, very secret troops and others who are very laser-focused on what is the Al Qaida network; how do we find the, you know, in combination with the technology advances that have been made both commercially but also within the government.
It's not necessarily this large apparatus that we've put in place. But there are definitely very experienced intel analysts and military operators who have been responsible for the virtual defeat of Al Qaida by now.
WALLACE: And again, I just want to point out that what you are seeing there on the right-hand side of the screen, in each case two members, two relatives of people who died on 9/11 reading the names, usually ending with a wonderful, heartbreaking, heartfelt message to their loved one whom they lost.
And then you also saw a firefighter's hat that was put on the memorial pool where the names of all 3,000 people -- there are two pools in the footprints of the two World Trade Center towers. And the names of all of the people who died are around those, each of those pools, an acre in size. And that's the footprint of World Trade Center towers.
Bill Kristol, as we discussed with some of our guests today, the legal structure that President Bush set up to fight terror -- and I am talking about Guantanamo and indefinite detention and military commissions and the Patriot Act.
WALLACE: Despite in some cases President Obama's opposition remain intact today. How important is that?
BILL KRISTOL, WEEKLY STANDARD: I think it's been awfully important and having the military structure remaining in place. Fouad Ajami, the Middle East scholar, said that bin Laden wanted a battle and he got a war. And I think the recognition by President Bush that we were in a war and we had to fight it as a war, and that included intelligence efforts abroad and at home and included the legal efforts at home and it included going in the Middle East and changing the regimes there that supported terror and that could be the basis for future attacks and keeping at it even when it got rough in Iraq. And credit to President Obama for keeping at it when it got tough in Afghanistan. I think that was crucial.
The 9/11 attacks spawned in America a 9/11 generation. More than 5 million Americans have served in the military, worn the uniform, since 9/11. Almost all of them chose to serve since 9/11 either volunteered or enlisted or re-upped since 9/11. They knew they were going in harm's way.
And one reason we have been safe for ten years is that the young men and women took the burden upon themselves of going to take the fight to the enemy.
WALLACE: You know, it's so interesting because one of the first ideas, proposals that have given to President Bush was let's send over some cruise missiles very much like Clinton did in 1998. And Bush reportedly said I don't want to pound sand. And, you know, that decision, I was talking about it with Don Rumsfeld in our first hour. This didn't all have to happen. This was decided by these guys on the fly, the decision they were not going to allow states to harbor terrorists, they were going to after the states as well as the terrorists hugely important decision that made.
Juan?
JUAN WILLIAMS, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: I think that's right. And I think you think about the aftermath of this and especially President Bush's decision, one, to take time to consider his action, to not react precipitously, but also to do things that I think that brought the country together. I remember all the flags around that time, the tremendous sense of unity here in the United States.
And I remember just the shock at watching those buildings fall, and understanding that if this was an attack as General Keane said to you earlier, Chris, an attack on civilization, that there are people there from around the globe, there were bus boys as well as executives and hedge fund traders, everybody was in that building.
And the impact everywhere, the idea that people in Europe were saying the world is under attack, we're all Americans now. That really sticks with me to this moment. And the idea that ten years later, we see an Arab spring taking root. And the idea is that al Qaida really has I think in terms of ideology not succeeded.
I will say on the negative side that that unity was short-lived. And that so many of the arguments the we see over weapons of mass destruction, over torture, some of the things that Bill was talking about, the legal parameters that have been put in place, I think continue to divide us as a country.
WALLACE: Brit?
HUME: I think we were pretty divided as a country on a range of political issues before 9/11. I think that the unity we felt was enormous outpouring of patriotism. We all kind of found out on that day how much we love this country.
And I think that the to return us to normal levels and even perhaps elevated levels of political hostility in this country is a function of a success we have had as a nation in repelling further attacks of any size.
Secondly, in the fact that life with the exception of some inconveniences that we all experience at airports and some other places has returned to normal in this country, a lot more quickly and completely that I thought it would. And there is a sense of life being back to normal and so politics is going back to normal.
WALLACE: Let me just -- before I get a final thought from you, Dana, I want to say we're looking at the memorial at the Pentagon. And if you haven't been there, if you ever get to Washington, please go see it. There is a bench there for each of the 184 people who were killed. And now family members are going to the various benches. Each one has the name, the birth date of a specific person, some facing in, show people who were in the Pentagon at the time, some facing out, showing people who were on Flight 77, American Flight 77.
Dana, your thoughts about this?
You know I have to say I agree with Brit. It seems to me to see political rancor and debate is a good thing, is a healthy thing.
PRIEST: Well, the controversy over a lot of those measures that Bush took in secret, the secret prison, the renditions, the tough interrogation, harsh interrogations which all came to light -- I mean them coming to light was a very American thing as well. The media did a part in it. It fueled debate. And that is the way it should be.
And a lot of people rejected those things as giving up some of our core values and our prestige around the country. But things have been changed now. Some of those have been disbanded and others, the Obama administration has marched on as the Bush administration began.
WALLACE: All right. We have to take a break here, but when we come back we'll continue the discussion. We'll also look ahead to where the war on terror goes next.
Our coverage on "Fox News Sunday" of 9/11: Then and Now continues in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WALLACE: And you are looking at Ground Zero in New York and the moving ceremony that took place there on this tenth anniversary of 9/11. And we're back now with the panel.
Dana, in you new book "Top Secret America" you report how in the wake of 9/11 a kind of terrorism industrial complex has developed like the military industrial complex after the cold and during the Cold War. How big is it? And what is your concern about it?
PRIEST: Nearly a hundred -- nearly a million people work who have top secret clearances on programs that are secret. Thousands of corporations and about 1,200 organizations. It is a giant complex that grew up after congress gave the executive branch a blank check basically to stop what everyone thought was going to be a next attack.
Ten years later, it's grown so large it's not manageable. We're supposed to put the director of national intelligence in charge, but he is not in charge. And in fact, that organization itself has grown to the size of buildings that are five Wal-Marts stacked on top of each other.
The Department of Homeland Security, a lot of people inside the community still don't know exactly what value it brings to a lot of things other than border security and transportation security. But 88,000 people work there. The building their building is going to be larger than the Pentagon. And half the employees are contractors.
So I think it's time with the death of bin Laden, with the near- death of the al Qaida network and with the precision and the growth of real expertise of following terrorist networks it's time to step back and reassess what have we built? Do we still need all of it as we're constructed, as it's been constructed, and should we keep growing it? Or should we reassess and cut back in some places, figure out what works and what doesn't work? That has not been done yet.
WALLACE: Bill?
KRISTOL: Well, you compare it to the military, the industrial complex from the Cold War. The military industrial complex helped win the Cold War. And if we pay a little price, a little waste and a little bit of excessive stuff at the airports to help win this war, which I think is comparable to the Cold War in the sense that we don't need to just defeat al Qaida or a few leaders of al Qaida, we need to change the character of the Middle East otherwise the 20 percent is going to be unmanageable. There will be other Al Qaedas, there will be other state sponsored terrorism. There will be nuclear weapons next time. And we'll be back where we were on 9/11 and in a way even worse.
So I think the effort -- I don't really believe we can cut back any more than we could have cut back 10 years into the Cold War in the mid-1950s before saying, oh well now we've -- Korea was very difficult, it's been divisive at home, General McCarthy. We surely need to get out of this war mentality.
In fact, we stayed with it with bipartisan leadership. And the Soviet Union collapsed.
KRISTOL: And I think we're in a similar moment today.
WALLACE: Brit, in the wake of 9/11, with some of the legal structure, the counterterrorism architecture that was created with warrantless wireless wiretaps and Patriot Act, there were critics who said that our civil liberties were in jeopardy.
Do you see any sign that's happened?
HUME: Well, I think there's always -- you have to be vigilant about that. But I think what is striking about it is how -- you know, I don't think any -- very many Americans to speak of have any worry about their civil liberties.
I mean, whereas speech is as free as it's ever been, except for political correctness, and that's not a function of the war on terror.
You know, debates are as robust as ever. I have no worries about my multitudinous communications on the Internet or anywhere else being supervised by some government official somewhere. I just don't worry about that very much, and I don't think most Americans do. I think vigilance is -- is reasonable about such things.
But what's striking about this is how little we've done. When you think about World War II, when we were -- you know, we locked up Japanese in a prison camp. Nothing like that has happened, nothing on that -- nothing on that scale, nothing of that kind.
WALLACE: Juan?
WILLIAMS: I think that's to America's credit that nothing like that has happened. And even if you look back to the Cold War era, with all the charges of Communist or associations, we have not seen that take place.
I would say that, if you look at the Congress, though -- and this picks up on what Dana was saying -- the Congress essentially gave a blank check to the executive, to the president, and said do what you need to prevent future attacks.
And I think that has really damaged their strength on national security issues. It's as if they are just not participating. You look at the recent U.S. intervention in Libya. Clearly, no president has supported the War Powers Act, but, you know, the reality is that Congress has not authorized the U.S. to go to war.
Even in the course of this attack, instead we have resolutions that permit the president and the military to get engaged.
I think the Congress has really appeared to be afraid that anything they do or say could be misconstrued and they could be blamed if there was a future attack. And so much U.S. policy now, it seems to me, politically speaking, is gauged to say I'm not responsible if another attack takes place.
We react -- we are very reactive and defensive. And what it leads to -- Brit says he's not worried about his communications, but you look at that Patriot Act -- we just reauthorize it, reauthorize it, and give people permission to look at the Internet, phone messages -- I could go on -- to monitor people. I think we have to be very careful to not sacrifice what America's ideals are in this -- in this involvement.
WALLACE: In the time we have left, let's -- let's look ahead.
And let me start with you, Bill. What -- what is the challenge now in continuing to fight and to win the war on terror?
KRISTOL: The challenge is to realize that we need to continue to fight and to win the war against Islamic terror and that we can't simply, I don't think, with all...
WALLACE: Do you worry about complacency?
KRISTOL: Yeah, I worry about complacency. I worry about war weariness. And I worry about us wishing to believe that if we only use, you know, targeted drone attacks, that that will be fine and we don't have to care about the character of the regimes in the Middle East and the questions of state -- and the states that sponsor terror.
9/11 was made possible because bin Laden was able to set up shop in Afghanistan, recruit there, bring people in there. He also, of course, had allies in Pakistan.
Luckily, in Afghanistan, that's become, in a way, an American base for fighting the war on terror, instead of a base for the terrorists.But we can't pull out. We can't simply hope that we can bring everyone home and it will all turn out well.
(CROSSTALK)
WALLACE: Let me -- let me bring in Dana, and we'll get to this.
PRIEST: Well, you know, respectfully, I would disagree. I think the Arab Spring, which is about the regime change, was not brought about by the security apparatus that we have built here in order to kill off Al Qaida.
It is in some regards despite it. And that's really something to be supported, that the -- that the -- this move toward democracy that's indigenously grown -- you know, we should help that in every way we can.
What we need to do in the future is learn from the past, learn what works, learn what is not working, and to -- and to grow those organizations that have been doing a god job and to get rid of those that are really not adding much of anything.
And, unfortunately, I do think, and this book describes some of those, there are a lot that aren't adding much to the fight.
WALLACE: Juan?
WILLIAMS: My concern is that -- I agree with Bill that we need to have a strong sense of commitment and continuing this effort but that these wars have gone on for so long. And if you look at the poll numbers, it's the American people, conservative and liberal, really feel like there is war-weariness, like we have done too much.
And now you hear politicians talk about really rebuilding -- doing nation-building here at home. And again, I think that undermines our sense that we need to continue to make sure that the terrorists do not have any hosts.
So we have to be very careful, I think, in saying we just need to persist. It's the way in which we persist. And I think that targeted drone attacks; I think the use of intelligence is helpful, because I don't think we're going to have continued support for an overall massive military effort.
WALLACE: Brit?
HUME: It's difficult to measure public opinion in the Arab world.Polls are not reliable. You know, interviews in the street aren't, either. But I wonder whether it's fair to say that the Arab Spring had nothing to do with anything we've done in the world.
I mean, these are people who witnessed the fall of what had seemed for so long to be an iron regime in Iraq, freedom breaking out, people with the purple fingers, an image that went out all over the world.
And I can't help but think that seeing that and seeing that things could be different and that these dictators were not insurmountable had something to do with the attitudes that have broken out all through that region.
WALLACE: And then in the 30 seconds we have left, what about public opinion in this country? How much do you worry that people are going to -- are tired?
HUME: We are a war-weary nation. There's no doubt about that. And the success of the effort to prevent a further attack of any size on this country has contributed to that. In a way, it's a paradox, but it's the case. And I think that it is something that's going to have to be -- that's going to have to be contended with for some time to come.
But I don't sense, in the Congress, really any desire to give up. And the president deserves a lot of credit for staying with it.
WALLACE: Thank you, panel, all of you, for your perspective on this special day.
I struggled to find some final words to sum up this anniversary, the astonishment we felt that our country could be so cruelly attacked, the long, hard struggle of this last decade and all the challenges we still face. Then I realized somebody had already said it, already said it far better than I ever could. Here is how the father of "Fox News Sunday," Tony Snow, closed this program 10 years ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TONY SNOW, FORMER HOST, "FOX NEWS SUNDAY": We once were a nation of neighbors and friends. We are again today. We once were a nation of hardship-tested dreamers. We are again today. We once were a nation under God. And we are again today.
Our enemies attacked one nation. They will encounter another. For they underestimated us. Today, in our grief and rage, our determination and hope, we've summoned what's best and noblest in us, the kinship that awes our enemies and friends alike. We are again Americans.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: We are indeed again Americans, and proudly so, now and forever.
And that's it for today. We leave you now with the stirring sights and sounds of this 10th anniversary of 9/11. And we'll see you next "Fox News Sunday."
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