O'REILLY: Well, that's not right.
MCMILLAN: Well how could the federal -- how -- what do you call sinful -- what do you call it sinful -- sinful -- sinful spending.
O'REILLY: Yes I mean, you want to spend the money the way the taxpayer is allotting it to you on rent and food. Not entertainment, gambling and liquor, come on.
MCMILLAN: It's being abuse and being abuse when I ran for governor.
O'REILLY: So you are admitting that welfare is abused.
MCMILLAN: It's being abused. It needs to be reformed.
O'REILLY: Ok, all right, I'm glad so I think you, me and Diana agree that this needs to be reformed. How big a problem do you see at the Manhattan Institute of abuse of welfare? Look, we just came off the thing where I said I wouldn't print the names of welfare people but I would print the names of welfare cheats, people who get money from the public and then spend it on frivolous things, narcotics or booze or whatever.
I think that's a horrible abuse of the taxpayer how prevalent is that Diana.
FURCHTGOTT-ROTH: We -- well we have the eligibility for food stamps as being expanding rapidly, we have about 47 million people on food stamps. It expanded in 2002, 2008, it expanded again under the stimulus bill. And so what we need to make sure is that the benefits are going to people who really need them.
O'REILLY: But do you have any idea on the -- on how much of the stuff is being used legitimately or illegitimately. Is there any study on that, any stats on that?
FURCHTGOTT-ROTH: We -- we do not have any good data on that. Undoubtedly some of it is -- undoubtedly some of it is but we don't have good data on that.
O'REILLY: All right, now you look at this issue.
MCMILLAN: And that is one. That is my problem, my problem is that the states should not go by a media report without conducting their own investigation.
O'REILLY: I agree with you. I want the stats.
MCMILLAN: You cannot -- you cannot assume and they are assuming. So I would leave it alone until you conduct a full thorough investigation before you draw any assumption on why you are spending this. Why you are getting this money from a strip club.
O'REILLY: All right. We do need a law.
FURCHTGOTT-ROTH: No. I think that these people really --
MCMILLAN: No, no.
O'REILLY: You don't need a law?
MCMILLAN: No, I think she may agree with me not without a thorough investigation. When you find out that it's being abused in that way then you can take the best step --
O'REILLY: Well, why not pass the law anyway because you know some people are doing it?
MCMILLAN: Constitution laws where you are (inaudible) violating constitutional law.
O'REILLY: You know some people are doing it you pass a law you have to use it for staples. And you can't use it.
MCMILLAN: There is a bad apple in every bunch.
O'REILLY: Right. So let's have the apple be held accountable there Jim.
MCMILLAN: You can't throw the entire bunch away because you've got bad apple.
O'REILLY: I'm not throwing anybody away. Just have rules.
MCMILLAN: You find a way to --
FURCHTGOTT-ROTH: And it's also very easy to be tempted --
MCMILLAN: I agree.
FURCHTGOTT-ROTH: -- it's very easy to be tempted if you get money out of the machine at the casino or the liquor store to spend it there. And it's much easier to have a law that says you just cannot get it out of a machine right there.
O'REILLY: And I think we should. I think it will happen here. Well it's a very interesting discussion. And Jim, I was a little taken aback by the revelation that you were a stripper at one time.
MCMILLAN: For a reason.
O'REILLY: Yes that was below 1950?
MCMILLAN: I'm exposed to Agent Orange and I have a deformed daughter the government told me we can't help you with your children. My daughter has spinal bifida and I need money to get my daughter's surgery.