What Do Relatives of Tookie Williams' Victims Want?

This is a partial transcript from "Hannity & Colmes," December 5, 2005, that has been edited for clarity.

SEAN HANNITY, CO-HOST: The debate continues tonight between supporters of Stanley Tookie Williams and those who want justice for the victims that he murdered.

Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger will hold a hearing on Thursday to determine whether he will grant clemency to Williams or see his execution go forward as planned, and that's just a few short days from now on December the 13th.

On February 27, though, 1979, Albert Lewis Owens was shot and killed by Williams during a robbery at the 7-Eleven where Owens was working.

Joining us now is Albert Owens' stepmother, Lora Owens.

First of all, ma'am, I'm — welcome to the program. And I don't know if you ever recover from something like that, and I'm very sorry about your case. And I'm sure this isn't a good time for you, bringing up these memories.

LORA OWENS, ALBERT OWENS' STEPMOTHER: Well, it's not been easy, Sean. And one of the problems is, with all of this going on, it's just like it just happened all over again.

HANNITY: Yes. Let me — can I read from the Los Angeles district attorney's response to his appeal for clemency, because they talk about your stepson? And this is what they say. They say, talking about Stanley Williams, they say he does not deserve mercy or clemency.

They write, 'What man orders another human being to lie face down on the floor and then proceeds to shoot him two times in the back at close range with a shotgun? What man later laughs when he tells his friends how the victim gurgled as he lay dying. Stanley Williams, the admitted co- founder of one of the most violent gangs in existence, is that man."

The person they're describing is your stepson.

OWENS: That's right.

HANNITY: Should he get clemency from Governor Schwarzenegger?

OWENS: I don't believe he should, Sean. I don't believe he's done anything to get clemency for. All of the things that they claim he's done can be proven away with facts. So all it is, is just a bunch of lies, but unless someone is out there pointing out the facts, nobody knows.

HANNITY: Lora, they — and I have read this entire case that's been put forward. It is overwhelming the evidence against this man.

OWENS: Sean, I have read this many, many times. Many times.

HANNITY: Yes. And I've got to tell you, the more I read it the more convinced I am.

But you know, what do you think when you hear these Hollywood stars? We heard Mike Farrell on this program last week. They're trying to make the case for him. And we have some people saying he deserves a Nobel Prize because he wrote a children's book. Yet his time in prison has been filled with instance after instance of violence and even throwing chemicals at the guards. And then people say he's recovered, he's changed, he's repented.

OWENS: Well, I say no, he hasn't repented. Let me go back to the celebrities first.

I think they're abusing their popularity and the access to the media. And most of them, you know, this is not a script that they can start reading and then when they go home it's all over with. We're talking about life and death. We're talking about the death of my son. We're talking about the life of Tookie Williams that has not been a redeemed life.

And I think they're abusing the very popularity that that they are — that they have. Now, if they believe — if they believe, firmly believe, Sean, that there shouldn't be a death penalty, they need to get out and fight the legislature. Don't be coming with Williams, who is such a vial, evil man, and hold him up. I'm real passionate about that, Sean.

ALAN COLMES, CO-HOST: It's Alan Colmes. Thank you very much for coming on. And...

OWENS: Hi, Alan.

COLMES: ... you know, regardless of how we feel about the death penalty, or what should happen here, we all mourn your loss. So thank you for coming on and being willing to talk about it.

OWENS: Thank you.

COLMES: And there are those of us — I'm against the death penalty. I'm just curious. And there are different ways we could argue about how to go about fighting it.

OWENS: But Alan, you may against the against the death penalty but you're not for Williams. There's the difference.

COLMES: Well, let me ask you this. Albert Owens, or Wayne's brother, Wayne, his brother, says he would be very happy. He doesn't get any satisfaction from seeing Tookie Williams die, but if he could be guaranteed that he would spend the rest of his life in jail without parole he thinks that would be a better outcome because he is opposed to the death penalty. What's your reaction to his position on that?

OWENS: Now, don't take what Wayne said and take it out of context. Wayne is very much in favor for justice for his brother, Albert. What he said was that he doesn't take any pleasure in the fact that a man is going to die.

And I don't celebrate the fact that any man is going to die, but what I say and what Wayne says is that Albert deserves to have justice. The court of law is the one who sentenced him to be executed. And we believe that justice is from that court of law.

COLMES: He said he would support clemency if, indeed, that did not lead to him being released. And there are those that feel that there is such a thing — is there such a thing as redemption? Is there ever a situation where somebody can redeem one self and do any good to society regardless of whatever horrible acts that person may have committed in the past?

OWENS: But, you see, redemption means that you state what you've done and that you try and atone but it doesn't mean that you try and get out of your punishment.

Now, what Williams says is his own brand of redemption. He's trying to say, "I'm redeemed now, don't punish me." That's not true redemption. He's put it all into a bunch of pack of lies but he sold it to the media. He sold it to Hollywood. And that's where it's going out. But, you know what? That's not redemption. That's not atonement.

HANNITY: You know, Lora, the Latin derivative of repentance literally means to change one's heart. You can't change your heart if you don't admit what you did wrong. And he still denies what he did here, so you're absolutely right.

OWENS: Well, it's real strange that he never did claim innocence until all the appeals had been finished.

And you know, when you go back to those books that Stanley has written, when they were written, he was claiming in all of his appeals that he was brain damaged. He was completely denying that he had written those books. But then all of the appeals got denied, then he takes ownership of the books and he says, oh, I have just done this great stuff. I'm really trying to get these kids out of the gangs. Have you read those books, guys? OK.

HANNITY: Lora, I'm sorry for the pain you're going through and the pain you've been through.

OWENS: Thank you.

HANNITY: And it's nice to finally hear from the victim's family for once. If you ever want to make your case or have access to the media, you're always welcomed on the show. Thank you for being with us, ma'am.

OWENS: Thank you for having me.

HANNITY: Appreciate your time.

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