Dominique Moceanu says she was abused by top trainers
Olympic gold medalist speaks out on 'The Story.'
This is a rush transcript from "The Story," January 26, 2018. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
MARTHA MACCALLUM, "THE STORY" HOST: Dominique Moceanu captivated the world as a 4'6" inch, 14-year-old, taking gold in the 1996 Olympics. What the world did not know was that this famous spunky superstar was in anguish. She was the first to break the code of silence in her sport ten years ago about what she says was emotional and at times the physical abuse by the world-famous U.S. Olympic Coach Bela Karolyi and his wife Marta.
The Karolyi Ranch would become a place of horror for many of these young athletes who suffered sexual abuse thereby Larry Nassar -- a man many gymnasts said at first was the only adult there who was nice to them. This week, he was sentenced to 175 years behind bars for abuse. He did that to some of the most decorated Olympians in our history.
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MATTIE LARSON, FORMER ARTISTIC GYMNAST: There's an eerie feeling as soon as you stepped onto the Karolyi Ranch. It is completely removed from all civilizations. To get to the ranch, you must drive up a dirt road for what seems like an eternity. And the closest of civilization is a high-security prison, 30 miles away. I figured if my friends went there, it can't be that bad, right?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: Awful. So, what about the adults who knew or were warned or had an inkling of the depravity of Larry Nassar, and when he was doing under the guise of treatment. Sometimes, as Mattie Larson just said there, while adults and fellow athletes were literally in the room with them. So, right now, at Michigan State University where Dr. Nassar also has this awful impact on many athletes, the president there has resigned in disgrace for not following up on the clues. And tonight, the entire USA Gymnastics Board has resigned as requested by the U.S. Olympic Committee for their failures in the situation. This is rocking the sport to its core. Dominique joins us live in just a moment. But first, we begin with Trace Gallagher from our West Coast Newsroom on all of this. Hi, Trace.
TRACE GALLAGHER, FOX NEWS CHANNEL HOST: Hi Martha. Under the guise of giving medical examinations and treatment, Dr. Larry Nassar molested girls for years -- some as young as six. Many of them were or would become Olympic gymnasts. And when it came time for Nassar to face justice, 150 young women came forward to confront him. Their stories were horrifying, heart-rending, powerful. Some of America's best athletes giving painful insight into their worst days. Watch.
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ALY RAISMAN, AMERICAN GYMNAST AND TWO-TIME OLYMPIAN: You are so sick, I can't even comprehend how angry I feel when I think of you. Imagine feeling like you have no power and no voice. Well, you know what, Larry? I have both power and voice, and I'm just beginning to just use them.
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GALLAGHER: At first, Dr. Nassar showed defiance accusing his victims of seeking news media attention. Later he was more contrite saying, "I will carry your words with me for the rest of my days." And the judge made sure the rest of his days will be in prison after giving Nassar 40-175 years, Judge Rosemarie Aquilina told Nassar she just signed his death warrant.
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ROSEMARIE AQUILINA, JUDGE: As much as it was my honor and privilege to hear from these survivors, it is my honor and privilege to sentence you. Because, sir, you do not deserve to walk outside of a prison ever again.
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GALLAGHER: Now, in the wake of the scandal, the fallout has been swift and severe. The entire board of directors for USA Gymnastics which is the governing body of gymnastics in the United States will now resign. At Michigan State, where Larry Nassar spent years on the faculty and treated numerous athletes, University President Lou Anna Simon stepped down amid allegations of mishandling the scandal. Simon issued a statement to survivors that read in part: "I can never say enough that I am so sorry that a trusted renowned physician was really such an evil, evil person."
Michigan State Athletic Director, Mark Hollis, also resigned today saying, he was not running away, but running towards comfort, compassion, and understanding for survivors. And now, senators from both parties are calling for a select committee to investigate USA Gymnastics in the U.S. Olympic Committee saying that while some justice has been served, many questions remain about how Nassar was able to continue his abuse for so many years. Martha.
MACCALLUM: Trace, thank you. Joining us now in a story exclusive tonight, Olympic gold medalist, Dominique Moceanu, author of the New York Times best-selling memoir, "Off Balance". Dominique, good evening. Thank you so much for being here with us this evening.
DOMINIQUE MOCEANU, OLYMPIC GOLD MEDALIST AND AUTHOR: Thank you. Great to be with you.
MACCALLUM: So, where to start? I mean, you know, when you look at your story and you hear the words of Mattie Larson, for example, talking about how eerie it was to arrive at the Karolyi Ranch, is that a description that resonates with you?
MOCEANU: Absolutely. I lived at the Karolyi Ranch the summer before the '96 Olympics. And I can tell you that that place holds some of my darkest memories in the sport, unfortunately.
MACCALLUM: What did they do to you there?
MOCEANU: Well, there was a constant psychological abuse. The screaming and yelling of just not being able to be perfect enough and also, the threats of calling my father to enforce physical punishment, the humiliation, and body shaming regularly, and --
MACCALLUM: Give me an example, Dominique, of the kind of things that they would say to you. You're a 14-year-old kid at this point. What kind of things did they say?
MOCEANU: Well, they just would call you names like Easter egg, and you ate too much. And if I made a mistake, it was because I was too fat, and it wasn't maybe because about tired or there was something else going on or we were supposed to work through our injuries. So, I collapsed in the gym the year before -- actually, the summer before the Olympics. And I collapsed in the gym and my leg was fractured. So, they grabbed me by the back of my neck and kind of shoved me over to the phone and said, go call your parents, maybe your leg is broken. This such cruelty.
MACCALLUM: Mattie Larson said that she once hit her own head in a bathtub so that she could claim she had a concussion and she would not be sent to this place. And you know, you listen -- and I watched some of the Olympic videos today, Dominique, and I can hear Bela Karolyi in the background because they had a mic on him so that everyone could hear him saying, yes! Yes! You nailed it! You're so great. Cheering you on. You know, when you hear that, what goes through you? We're showing everybody a picture of the two of you and a tiny little adorable you looking up into the face of this man, what's going through your mind?
MOCEANU: Well, what's going through my mind is I had constant intimidation, fear, and control. These people terrified me and I was very scared of them when I was a 14-year-old little girl. Obviously now, not anymore, and when I found my voice ten years ago, I chose to not participate in the disgusting behavior that I saw within the organization, and also within this huge gushing of love for the Karolyi's, and this facade they portrayed on television -- a big teddy bear, great, living coach. But behind closed doors, the reality was very different.
MACCALLUM: So, the attention is turning to them now. I mean, now that Larry Nassar has had his moment in court, the Karolyi Ranch is now shuttered. They have a sign outside: "thanks everybody for all the great heirs and all the great memories." Do you feel -- Larry Nassar, you are not a victim of Larry Nassar's because you overlapped a little bit, as I understand it. But what do you think the Karolyi's knew and understood about what he was doing to these young athletes?
MOCEANU: Well, the Karolyi's knew what we ate, they knew how much we wait, they knew when we train, they knew who they wanted on the world and Olympic team. And to say that they didn't know absolutely anything is questionable. Obviously, we don't know unless they say what they knew. And it needs to be investigated -- and I'm glad that senators are calling for it as to why this happened. And it happened because it was a culture of psychological abuse going on rampant for 30-plus years, and it allowed the most prolific pedophile in our history and maybe in all of history just for this year a countless number of victims but walk through the walls of the sport. And it's really, really awful, but he went unchecked because the Karolyi's wanted to keep him around. He was, Martha, a doctor because said what she wanted to hear. And when girls were injured, he would kind of pretend to patch them up, but really, I don't know if he ever accurately diagnosed anybody.
MACCALLUM: You know, that's incredible. And the stories are that he would give girls food because they were -- you were all on such a strict diet that he would lure them with food. And that's why they said, I thought he was the only nice adult in the entire place. That's such classic pedophile luring behavior on his part. You know, and this -- I just want to ask you one last question about what Mattie Larson said. She said he would do these treatments, which I can only -- the only way for me to shed light on what I read today is that it's more like going to a gynecologist than it is going to a physical trainer, OK. He would do this in the presence of other athletes and parents and adults?
MOCEANU: Yes, he was very skillful. He was a master manipulator. He put a blanket over or a towel over and he would position himself with his back toward the athlete or the parent and go-ahead and subject himself to a certain pleasure. And instead of taking the oath that he did, he was supposed to do no harm. And instead, he exploited children for his pleasure.
MACCALLUM: Dominique Moceanu, thank you for all that you have done for your representation of this country and the Olympics, and I know you have a son now who is competing in the sport that you love. And I hope that's a great way to rebuild all of this for you and your family.
MOCEANU: Definitely. Thank you.
MACCALLUM: Thanks, Dominique. Good to see you. Joining me now, Mark Eiglarsh, a Criminal Defense Attorney; and Rachel Stockman, Editor in Chief at Lawandcrime.com. Welcome to both of you. Rachel, let me start with you. You've listened to what Dominique had to say. The focus really turns, I think, now to the Karolyi's and what they knew.
RACHEL STOCKMAN, EDITOR IN CHIEF, LAWANDCRIME.COM: Absolutely. This Larry Nassar guy is a disgusting, despicable human being. And the truth of the matter is, for decades and decades, this went on. There's no way in my mind that some adults didn't know about this. And whether the Karolyi's knew about it or not, we need to get to the bottom of this, because people were enablers and allowed this to go on for way too long.
MACCALLUM: Mark, you know, you have all these women now, witnesses who were at the Karolyi Ranch, who experienced this themselves. I find it -- I mean, obviously, they're going to be asked as part of this investigation into the Karolyi's, where they aware of what this treatment consisted of?
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: And they'll say no, and then it's going to be very difficult for the plaintiff's lawyers, unfortunately, to prove that they were negligent in any way because you've got a master manipulator in Nassar, and he manipulated the best of him.
MACCALLUM: Did you hear what Dominique just said? She said the Karolyi's knew what we ate, they knew what time we slept, they knew every simple thing about them. So, you really think that there's a possibility that if this kind of examination was going on while they were standing in the room, that they had no idea what he was doing and they weren't looking the other way?
EIGLARSH: It's not what I think, it's what they'll be able to prove and I think that it gets to file the lawsuit. I think it's possible that they knew. I think it's going to be challenging, however, to prove that they knew without any other kind of evidence.
MACCALLUM: Rachel?
STOCKMAN: And also, this guy was really a master manipulator. And if you were listening to that sentencing hearing that went over the last week, over and over again, you had these young women saying that many times, their parents, their mothers were in the room when this was happening and they had no idea, or at least they turned a blind eye because this guy was so manipulative.
MACCALLUM: Yes. I mean, it's like -- go ahead. Go ahead, Mark.
EIGLARSH: Predators like this can only continue to harm their prey if they keep everything that they do secret. So, the argument is going to be: he did everything he could to not let any adults who could stop him find out what he did. Now, they might've known. It's just going to be challenging now.
MACCALLUM: Yes. But, you know, there was one athlete and her mother, and she said I described to my mother what was happening, and she said he also did it to my sister. Now, there is a practice of osteopathy that involves this kind of examination at the consent of the patient for some kinds of back ailments. And this osteopathist say, this has nothing to do with that kind of procedure which is done with consent, which is done an operating room. You know, so, I mean, and that -- this is why the judge looked at him and said don't even -- don't confuse yourself for one second, thinking that what you were doing was any kind of legitimate treatment on these young women who had no consent whatsoever in the situation. But I can't think of another pedophile situation where you have witnesses saying there were adults standing in the room while this was happening. I think this makes their case much more difficult, Rachel.
STOCKMAN: I do. I think it makes it much more difficult just because of the way he was able to manipulate so many people into believing what he was doing was somehow legitimate. I think the question for the couple that ran this ranch is how much did they know, who knew about it, and how can they prove, as Mark said, that they were totally aware of what happened? And that's going to be a difficult case. However, you do have dozens and dozens of gymnasts that went to this place who are going to be able to testify because this is going to civil court. There have already been lawsuits over this, as to what they saw, how the ranch was run, and what this couple new at the time?
MACCALLUM: Yes. You know, it reminds me of some of the other cases that we've seen in America in regard to pedophilia at a rapid looking in the other direction. Quickly, Mark, thank you.
EIGLARSH: The positive out of all this, if you're going to see more sexual abuse victims coming forward. They're going to stick these cases out in the system, there'll be stronger plea bargains, and more of these guys will suffer the kind of consequences he did, and that's the plus. And I think these women were so courageous for coming forward.
MACCALLUM: They absolutely were. Thank you, guys, great to see you both tonight. So, still to come this evening, the strange politics of immigration. President Trump takes the heat, offers a path to citizenship, but Dems say "no way", no way to this deal. So, how will they explain that to these kids and the families? And the latest twist tonight in the text message drama at the FBI. Plus, the president just arriving back at the White House after whirlwind 48 hours in Switzerland where today, he challenged the world's elite.
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DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You are national leaders, business titans, industry giants, and many of the brightest minds in many fields. Each of you has the power to change hearts, transform lives, and shape your country's destinies.
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TRUMP: (INAUDIBLE), it was a very, very successful trip.
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MACCALLUM: That was just a few moments ago. The president, obviously, now back to the White House after a couple of days in Davos, Switzerland, where he met with world leaders, business leaders. He kept up the visit with a speech this morning to the so-called global elite that gathers for this economic forum. Watch some it.
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TRUMP: The world is witnessing the resurgence of a strong and prosperous America. and then have it at this economic forum. Watch this. Speak with the world is witnessing the resurgence of a strong and prosperous America. I'm here to deliver a simple message. There has never been a better time to hire, to build, to invest, and to grow in the United States. America is open for business and we are competitive once again. America is the place to do business. So, come to America where you can innovate, create, and build. I believe in America. As president of the United States, I will always put America first, just like the leaders of other countries should put their country first also. But America first does not mean America alone. When the United States grows, so does the world.
To be successful, it is not enough to invest in our economy; we must invest in our people. When people are forgotten, the world becomes fractured. Only by hearing and responding to the voices of the forgotten can we create a bright future that is truly shared by all. The nation's greatness is more than the sum of its production. The nation's greatness is the sum of its citizens, the values, pride, love, devotion, and character of the people who call that nation home.
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MACCALLUM: Joining me now, Guy Benson, Political Editor at Townhall.com; and Jessica Tarlov, Senior Director of Research at Bustle.com, both are Fox News Contributors. Guy, let me start with you. How do you think that's received? You know, what did they make of President Donald Trump? He's the first president to speak at this conference since Bill Clinton.
GUY BENSON, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR AND POLITICAL EDITOR AT TOWNHALL.COM: Well, I think that there's a lot of interest in President Trump and a lot of curiosity -- what's he going to say, how's he going to present himself, what's he going to do? He has a reputation, obviously, and I think he delivered a very serious, sober, positive message for the American people. I think the reviews for this trip, it's a short one, but have been overall very strong and I think deservedly so.
MACCALLUM: You know, we had heard, Jessica, that, you know, members of the African delegation were going to walk out, that didn't happen. In fact, the president of Rwanda praised him. He said he considers him a friend. He's looking forward to working with him. You know, there was a lot of concern that he was going to go over there like a bull on a China shop and it doesn't look like that's what happened.
JESSICA TARLOV, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR AND SENIOR DIRECTOR OF RESEARCH AT BUSTLE.COM: No, it was a very scripted appearance. I agree with that. I thought the speech was very good. This is especially important that he said America first doesn't mean America alone. I'm glad that no one walked out of this kind of speech, though I saw (INAUDIBLE) for those comments that he made in that meeting.
But I think this was a very smart trip to make, especially because there were so many CEOs there, so many businessmen, that he could get the feedback -- and women, I'm sorry -- and feedback about how tax reform is working, and that is kind of the high point of this administration thus far. And we have been seeing those gains, we have seen -- been seeing bonuses for many American workers. So, getting that kind of feedback going into the State of the Union, I think it's critical for the president's personal ego, but also for the nation. And I hope that the State of the Union sounds a lot more like this speech that when he addressed Congress last February.
MACCALLUM: All right. So, you know, the inaugural was said to be very dark about a year ago. Susan Rice wrote this editorial today in the New York Times which can also be seen as somewhat dark. Let's put up what she said. "We need to decide whether we want to remain the world's pre-eminent power -- a strong, cohesive beacon of democracy. Or if we're content to allow our national autoimmune disorder, like a flesh-eating, to devour our body politics." She's referring to what she sees as such sharp divisions in the United States, Guy.
BENSON: Well, I don't find Susan Rice to be a particularly credible messenger -- even if I agree with parts of her message. And I think that talking about darkness, I'd be surprised if the State of the Union next week reflects that same sort of darkness because there is so much good news, at least on the economic front. When you're assessing the Trump presidency, you have to take a holistic approach sort of look at each thin individually, and the economy -- and the economic news is just terrific. Overall, jobs, the bonuses from these tax reforms, the IMF boosting the global growth projections because of tax reform. A new poll shows 64 percent of small business owners say that the Trump presidency is helping their businesses. There's a lot of stuff and material for Trump to tout on a very major stage, and I expect him to do exactly that.
MACCALLUM: All right. Quick last thought, Jessica.
TARLOV: I agree with Guy. I think he should focus that way, and definitely have an uplifting address. I do think there is also the date on the other side of things. New polling shows that people feel that he is so much more divisive as a president than President Obama, for instance, especially along racial lines. So, there's still anxiety out there. I know the economic news is good. But with his popularity still hanging as low as it is here, we know that this president isn't beloved by all, so --
MACCALLUM: Well, at least because I just saw he's up by 45 percent, which is a decent move. We'll see where it goes and we'll see what he has to say on Tuesday night. Thanks, you guys. Good to see you both.
So, coming up, how the White House hopes to strike a deal on DACA and how they have ticked off their base and Nancy Pelosi at the same time.
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REP. NANCY PELOSI, D-CALI., HOUSE MINORITY LEADER: If they want the ransom for these children to be $25 billion for a wall?
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MACCALLUM: And the curious timing of stories that trickle out related to the special counsel investigation. How are both sides playing the other for the upper hand? Congressman Sean Duffy and Marie Harf here on that coming up next.
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MACCALLUM: President Trump firing back at what he calls "fake news". A New York Times report says he tried to fire a Special Counsel Robert Mueller just weeks after he was on the job. Fox News has sources that confirm part of that story. Trace Gallagher is live and our West Coast Newsroom with the backstory for us tonight. Hi, Trace.
GALLAGHER: Hi, Martha. White House source is now telling Fox News correspondent, Ed Henry, that last June, President Trump did threatened to fire special counsel Robert Mueller, but the source says it's unclear if White House counsel Don McGahn threatened to resign over it. The president himself before leaving Davos said this about the allegations. Watch.
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UNINDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you seek to fire Mueller?
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Fake news, folks. Fake news. New York Times fake stories.
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GALLAGHER: And now, Iowa GOP senator and judiciary committee chair, Chuck Grassley, has released new text messages between FBI officials Peter Strzok and Lisa Page who were taken off the Mueller investigation. Remember, Strzok and Page were having an affair, and earlier text messages between the two revealed an anti-term bias. Now it appears that they're were also concerned about being too tough on Hillary Clinton during the bureau's investigation into her email practices. In February 2016, right in the midst of the presidential campaign, Lisa Page texted Strzok, quote, one more thing, she might be our next president. Going on to say, the last thing you need is going in there loaded for bear. You think she's going to remember or care that it was more DOJ than FBI? Strzok replied that he agreed. Here's GOP congressman, Jim Jordan, this morning on Fox & Friends.
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UNINDENTIFIED MALE: Before we got these text messages, we all suspected the fix was in on the Clinton investigation. Now we've seen these text messages, we know the fix was in.
GALLAGHER: Another exchange between Strzok and Page from July 2016m referenced then-Attorney General Loretta Lynch's decision to accept the FBI's conclusion that Hillary Clinton did not commit a crime. Of course, that decision came just days after Lynch and former president Bill Clinton had an impromptu meeting aboard her plane on the tarmac in Phoenix. Strzok texted, quote, timing looks like hell. Lisa Page response, yeah, that is awful timing. Later adding, quote, it's a real profile in courage since she knows no charges will be brought, which only renews Republican suspicion that top law-enforcement officials knew well ahead of time that Hillary Clinton would not be facing charges. Democrats call all of this a distraction from the Mueller probe. Martha,
MACCALLUM: Thank you, Trace. Here with more, Wisconsin congressman, Sean Duffy, and Marie Harf, a former Obama state department spokesperson and a Fox News contributor. Welcome to both of you. Good to have you here. You know, one of the things that struck me with this story that came out last night from the New York Times is that it was very much in the news back in June. There was all kinds of discussion about whether or not the president was considering firing Mueller, and should he, and would it be a big mistake if he did that?
So, and it appears that their source on this, it says Robert Mueller learned about the episode, the firing -- you know, almost firing episode in recent months as his investigators interviewed current and former senior White House officials about this -- in the midst of their inquiries. So, I guess, congressman, it just raises the immediate question, why is this coming out now?
REP. SEAN DUFFY, R-WIS.: Well, I would argue that this is because they're trying to change their narrative away from wrongdoing from the DOJ and the FBI. By the way, Martha, again, this story is a seven months old, but the sources for the article in the New York Times is four people familiar with the matter. Not even people with knowledge. So, it's double, triple hearsay, number one.
But number two, I think it calls into question, is the Mueller team actually leaking some of these information out that they gain during their investigation to change the narrative away from the FBI and focus it back on Donald Trump? Listen, I think these are shady tactics that are being used and, frankly, let all the facts come out. Let's let Trump to his interview with Mueller. Let's let the four-page memo come out from the house intelligence committee and see what kind of behavior was going on inside the FBI and the DOJ that I think will expose a lot of political bias and use of bad information for political purposes.
MACCALLUM: You know, the other obvious thing here, Marie, is that if it was discussed, you know, this story says that it was discussed, that he considers it, didn't do it. So, I mean, you know, a lot of things get discussed and argued about, and fought over in the course of business, and in the course of the presidency and everything else in politics, but he didn't fire him, ultimately. So, you know, what's the big issue considering that?
MARIE HARF, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Well, that's true, but it's still very disturbing and it's very problematic. And look, Donald Trump can turn to a camera and call the story fake news even though we and other outlets had confirmed at least parts of it. He cannot do that when Bob Mueller puts him under oath and asks him about it, which he will because this is part of the questioning of the obstruction of justice piece that Bob Mueller is looking at, the firing of Jim Comey, asking for, you know, Mueller to possibly be fired. He's going to have to answer very detailed, very specific questions, and he cannot just use the excuse of fake news. This is a very serious allegation that he is trying to fire the exact people who are investigating him.
MACCALLUM: Well, the argument which we've heard before is that, you know, he thought that it was an unfair investigation. The odds are stacked against him. And you look at these text messages and you can kind of see where that conclusion might be drawn. However, Marie, if you look back at the basic facts, they didn't fire Mueller. They decided that that was not a wise decision to do, despite, you know, perhaps, the president's desire to make it happen, you know, he says you're right, can't do it.
HARF: That's true. But look, neither of those people whose text messages have suddenly taken on, you know, the word of God in terms of how we're looking at this investigation, those people don't work on the Mueller investigation. And as soon as Bob Mueller found out about those messages, he fired Strzok.
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HARF: That's not the Mueller investigation. That is separate, Martha.
MACCALLUM: I know that.
DUFFY: But, Martha, Democrats are trying to undo the election from a year and a half ago. And they've drawn to a conclusion that the way to do that is to drive this idea that Donald Trump colluded with Russia. Phil -- the fact that, Maria, Democrats will say, oh, my gosh, this is some bad act that Donald Trump thought about firing Mr. Mueller. Give me a break. This is a massive whiff on the part of the Democratic Party. Donald Trump didn't collude and they'll stretch and contort any news fact that drives the narrative away from a booming economy, wages going up, bonuses coming out, businesses coming back to America, a secure border, a crushing of ISIS, they can't handle that narrative so they'll grab that straw and report on Donald Trump thought about firing bob Mueller, who cares? It's a nonstory. But that's all they have to go on.
MACCALLUM: I've got to leave it there. But I got a feeling we'll revisit this again.
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MACCALLUM: Marie, thank you very much. Congressman Duffy, thank you as well. Good to see you both. So still ahead tonight, one of the president's top priorities is putting an end to the opioid crisis in America, but one former Democratic member of his commission on this says it is not working. Patrick Kennedy joins me live coming up. Plus, why won't Senator Schumer make a deal on DACA?
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UNINDENTIFIED MALE: We must finally pass a bill to protect the dreamers. The American people are clamoring for our two parties to work together.
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TRUMP: We must replace our occurrences of extended family chain migration with a merit-based system of admissions that selects new arrivals based on their ability to contribute to our economy, to support themselves financially, and to strengthen our country.
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MACCALLUM: President Trump earlier today in Davos talking about his new immigration proposal. Some key Republicans are embracing the deal that gives the pathway to citizenship to nearly 2 million dreamers, others are not. And Democrats, while the president is doubling the numbers of dreamers who could stay, they don't like it.
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UNINDENTIFIED MALE: He's put obstacles in the way of the bipartisan negotiations that are taking place.
UNINDENTIFIED MALE: We have a way to get forward without engaging in Donald Trump's, I think, irrational ideas about what's necessary at the border.
UNINDENTIFIED FEMALE: They want to ransom for these children to be $25 billion for a wall? That plan is a campaign to make America white again.
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MACCALLUM: Here now, David Wohl, attorney and conservative commentator, and Mary Anne Marsh, a Democratic strategist and former senior advisor to Secretary of State John Kerry. Welcome. Very strong words, David, from Nancy Pelosi on that, calling it a ransom of $25 billion for these kids.
DAVID WOHL, ATTORNEY: Yeah. Democrats already shot themselves in the foot by folding in the government shutdown. If they wanted to ensure defeat in November, they should reject this very generous plan laid out by President Trump. I mean, they've been demanding that DACA eligible people get resident status, 800,000. This more than doubles that number. But this is a two-way street. This is comprehensive immigration reform and the issue of the 25 billion for the wall is nonnegotiable. The end to chain migration and limiting to the immediate family is nonnegotiable. And the merit based immigration is nonnegotiable. Countries all over the world have all three of these programs implemented. But when America wants to do it, somehow it's evil, it's bad, the Democrats rejects it. They do so now at their own peril. My guess is they'll come around very quickly.
MACCALLUM: So, Mary Anne, it's tough to imagine, you know, the conversation that one of these young dreamers would have with a Democrat whose oppose to this plan. They say, wait, they've just double the number of us that's allowed to stay and you're going to tell them that they don't get it? How does that even work?
MARY ANNE MARSH, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Actually, the dreamers are opposed to this plan and they came out with a statement saying that yesterday. The problem is this isn't a DACA bill, it's an immigration bill.
MACCALLUM: So they don't want to stay? They don't want to stay, Mary Anne?
MARSH: That's a false choice. They are opposed to this approach. Originally, we were just dealing with DACA. Then Trump wanted a wall that Mexico is going to pay for. Now, there's a $25 billion wall that the United States is going to pay for, but it's DACA, the $25 billion wall. No family reunification and no lottery all together. We would be better off dealing with each of these things.
(CROSSTALK)
MACCALLUM: It's not a Republican president, Mary Anne, who's arguing for a path to citizenship. He has the majority on the hill and it was never going to be just about DACA when you have that situation, when you're dealing with the majority on the hill. There has to be give-and-take on both sides, Mary Anne and then, David.
MARSH: Well, on Monday or over the weekend, Schumer had a deal with Trump on a wall for 18 billion and the dreamers.
MACCALLUM: Which was 800,000 of them, now it's up to 2 million.
(CROSSTALK)
MARSH: Now it's going to be $33 billion wall. So, just deal with the dreamers first and foremost which 83 percent of the people in this country, 73 percent of Trump voters want to stay.
MACCALLUM: David.
WOHL: He is dealing with the dreamers and he's doubling that number to almost 2 million. So, what could you possibly complain about that? Number one, Mary Anne -- 800,000 -- I spoke to two today who were absolutely thrilled with this idea. And the idea that we can't attach comprehensive immigration reform to this like Barack Obama harped on for eight years, and because suddenly it's President Trump, it's no good. No, we're going to get the funding for the wall to protect us from the drug dealers and to protect us from the gang members that come over. We're going to end chain based migration because that is spun completely out of control. We've lost control of who comes in unless we change it to the immediate family. And merit-based immigration, by the way, I know so many brilliant and talented people who have come from south of the border, highly educated, so the idea that it's going to be just white immigrants is a total false narrative. Nancy Pelosi is full of it and she knows it.
MACCALLUM: Last thought to Mary Anne. Go ahead, Mary.
MARSH: Here's the last problem, Martha. Let's say the senate passes some kind of dreamer deal, wall, what have you, what have you, guess who hasn't agree to do anything? Paul Ryan and the house, which is exactly what he did in 2013.
MACCALLUM: So let it go through and see what happens. I mean, this is an opening deal, opening offer.
MARSH: I'm going to give you two things, Martha. One, Paul Ryan is not saying he will run for reelection, so it's very hard to get him to commit. And my last point to you, Martha, I feel to public service. Gronk is going to be fine. He's going to play, all right, away from Sunday, I promise you, just because you didn't see him today.
MACCALLUM: I just want him to be safe and healthy. OK. Thank you, Mary Anne. I really appreciate that.
WOHL: Go Eagles.
MACCALLUM: We have a rivalry going here. Thanks you, guys. So last night, if you're watching with us, Kevin Simmers told us one of the tragedies that led to the death of his beautiful 19-year-old daughter Brooke.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNINDENTIFIED MALE: We get a 28 day program and then after that, they would put us into -- they'll recommend that we go to a halfway house. Every halfway house we went to, Martha, rundown sections of town, overcrowded, boarded up. Really didn't give girls an honest chance of recovery.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: Patrick Kennedy has been through this kind of situation and he is not happy with what we're doing in this country to fix it. He's here, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: This epidemic is a national health emergency. Unlike many of us, we've seen and what we've seen in our lifetimes, nobody has seen anything like what's going on now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: So, that was back in October. The president promised to make the fight for the opioid crisis a top priority. So, where does it stand now? This week, former Democratic congressman, Patrick Kennedy, who was on that commission said this, he said this thing is a charade. You can't expect to stem the tide of a public health crisis that is claiming over 64,000 lives per year without putting your money where your mouth is. The slow pace of the fight hitting home where one narcotics officer who we spoke to last night who lost his own daughter to addiction.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: You say that one of the biggest problems you felt was that there weren't enough options for treatment that you could get her into.
UNINDENTIFIED MALE: Not what I would call expectable treatment. I mean, a lot of the treatment facilities we went to, it was all based by -- it was all dictated by what your insurance would pay and how long they might allow you to stay there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: Former Democratic congressman, Patrick Kennedy, joins me now. It's good to have you with us tonight. Thank you very much for being here, Patrick.
PATRICK KENNEDY, FORMER DEMOCRATIC CONGRESSMAN: Thanks, Martha.
MACCALLUM: We reached out to the White House today to find out what happened when this commission ended. We have not heard anything back from them. We hope that we will. What's your understanding of who's leading this charge now?
KENNEDY: Well, I will say, Governor Christie, who was chair of our commission was terrific. He actually not only talk the talk, he was walking the walk here in New Jersey where I live now. As governor, he appropriated $250 million just for New Jersey. Now, that would make it nearly half as much as being spent on the whole country. Can you imagine New Jersey spending half of what the whole nation is spending on the opioid crisis, which means that it's just a pitiful, pitiful story when it comes to the amount of real federal effort and leadership on the part of the president because, frankly, when we had the aids crisis, for example, Martha, we were spending $24 billion a year to tackle that very challenging issue. We were losing 53,000 Americans a year to HIV/aids. This year were losing 64,000, as I mention. We're not even spending a half a billion dollars on tackling an even greater public health crisis than HIV/aids.
MACCALLUM: All right. So explained to me because people out there listen and they look at how much money the government spends on so many things and some of them may think are wasteful, so explain. If they were to put the American tax dollars that are needed, as you say, towards this, how would you spend that, what would you do?
KENNEDY: Well, we know -- we read every day, we watch on your newscast about the flu epidemic, and Americans are fine about saving people from getting the flu and getting their flu shot to keep them from going to the emergency rooms. We have a flu shot for the opioid epidemic. It's called short and long acting Buprenorphine. It can be given at any physician's office anywhere in this country. The only thing that's not making this happen is the fact the federal government has not push forward for a proper reimbursement to allow doctors to go ahead and prescribe this.
On top of that, we need to treat this like the medical issue it is. The gentleman you spoke to last night, the father, there's not adequate treatment options in this country, whereas if you're trying to get treatment for your loved ones with cancer, or diabetes, or cardiovascular disease, there wouldn't be any problem with that. You have St. Jude Hospital to call up. But where are you going to call when your loved one is dying of an addiction? We're losing over 100,000 Americans when you consider not only overdose but suicide. And then think about how many more million Americans who are dying inside because their loved one is suffering from addiction.
MACCALLUM: I hear you.
KENNEDY: They haven't died yet, but the whole family is blown apart. This is a public health epidemic and it's a nationwide epidemic.
MACCALLUM: And there's not any of us who don't know people or love people who've been touched by this. And I appreciate your voice on this and we're going to stay on it, and we hope that you'll get the funding that you believe this requires. And we're going to keep talking about it. Thank you very much. Good to see you tonight, Patrick Kennedy.
KENNEDY: Thank you, Martha.
MACCALLUM: You bet. Quick break and we'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MACCALLUM: Twenty years ago on this day in 1988, Americans watched their president say this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL CLINTON, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: What I want to say one thing to the American people. I want you to listen to me. I'm going to say this again. I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Ms. Lewinsky.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACCALLUM: And he never told anybody to lie, remember that? Don't miss our documentary series, Scandalous, this Sunday, seven-part series, covering all of that drama. Have a great night everybody. Tucker is up next.
END
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