Pence: Ultimately, DACA decision must be made by Congress

This is a rush transcript from "The Story," January 10, 2018. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

MARTHA MACCALLUM, HOST: Breaking tonight, an exclusive one on one with Vice President Mike Pence.


VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE: The American people want us to build a wall. They want border security. They want to end the flow of illegal immigrants into this country and also illicit drugs that are tearing apart families and communities all across this country.


MACCALLUM: Tonight the vice president speaks his mind about the conservative war over immigration. And he has a few things to say to author Michael Wolff about the president's keynote. But first --


PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: It has been determined that there is no collusion, and by virtually everybody, so we'll see what happens.


MACCALLUM: So, that is how the president responded when asked if he will be personally interviewed by Robert Mueller. Before we get to the vice president, Chief National Correspondent, Ed Henry, starts us off in the White House tonight. Ed?

ED HENRY, FOX NEWS CHANNEL CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Martha, great to see you. This is all about President Trump trying finally to kick off the new year by going on offense over these various Russia investigations, basically fed up with playing defense for so long throughout the last year. The president, one day after his Personal Attorney, Michael Cohen, tweeted: "enough is enough" and filed defamation suits against Buzzfeed, plus Fusion GPS, and its co-founder Glenn Simpson, over what Cohen he called the "phony dossier".

The president starting today by tweeting about Democrat Dianne Feinstein, leaking that transcript of testimony, declaring: "The fact that sneaky Dianne Feinstein, who has, on numerous occasions, stated that collusion between Trump and Russia has not been found would release testimony in such an underhanded and possibly legal way totally without authorization is a disgrace. Must have tough primary!" Meaning back in California.

Then, the president used a joint news conference with the prime minister of Norway to reiterate his claim that the U.S. looks bad on the world stage because of all these various probes into Russia, including Robert Mueller's investigation. The president hedging on a one on one with Mueller by saying, where there is no collusion, it is unlikely there would be an interview at all, suggesting Hillary Clinton was treated with kid gloves by the FBI when she was interviewed over her e-mail server.


TRUMP: There is collusion, but it's really with the Democrats and the Russians, far more than it is with the Republicans and the Russians. So, the witch hunt continues. I will say this, I am for massive oil and gas, and everything else, and a lot of energy. Putin's can't love that. I am for the strongest military that the United States ever had. Putin can't love that.


HENRY: Then, there's immigration. Democrat Steny Hoyer, emerging today from yet another leadership meeting to say he wants a deal on DACA, and then border security can come later. Well, the president was aggressive about trying to clarify what he said yesterday, making clear there's no DACA deal in his estimation without funding for the wall.


TRUMP: No. No. It's got to include the wall. We need the wall for security. We need the wall for safety. We need the wall for stopping the drugs from pouring in. I would imagine that the people in the room, both Democrat and Republican, I really believe they're going to come up with a solution to the DACA problem which has been going on for a long time and maybe beyond that, immigration as a whole.


HENRY: But then, Senator Elizabeth Warren was just on with Bret a few moments suggesting Democrats may even be willing to shut down the government to get a DACA only deal and block the president's wall. This is a battle royal that's coming, Martha.

MACCALLUM: It certainly is. Ed, thank you very much. So, the vice president is about to embark on a major mission to the Middle East, and then he will head the U.S. delegation to the Olympics in South Korea. But we started with just this subject. The hot battle over the wall and what the president promised.


MACCALLUM: Mr. Vice President, thank you very much for making some time for us today to speak with you.

PENCE: Thank you, Martha.

MACCALLUM: Obviously, one of the biggest stories right now is DACA. The San Francisco judge made a ruling saying that essentially that the president had no rights over what comes next with DACA, that it has to stay in place. What's your reaction to that?

PENCE: Well, we believe that decision was wrongly decided once again. Another West Coast judge is rendered a decision that would go to the Supreme Court we're sure would be overturned. Even President Obama said on multiple occasions that he did not have the authority, through executive action, to extend protection through DACA. And President Trump last year made it clear that we're going to stand by the constitution.

Congress writes the laws. The president implements and upholds and executes the law, and we're confident the Supreme Court would uphold that. But our hope is, as you saw yesterday, is to continue a dialogue with Republicans and Democrats on Capitol Hill and call on the Congress to come together to address issues of border security, to make the necessary changes -- chain migration, visa lottery, and also deal with the DACA issue with the compassion.

MACCALLUM: You're in the middle of that discussion as we saw yesterday, a very active debate at the table. Fascinating for everybody, I think, in America to watch. But what does this do to your leverage when in the middle of that moment this judge said, basically, that issue is off the table.

PENCE: We really don't think it affects it in any way. Because, we believe that ultimately, this decision has to be made by the Congress of the United States. And that the Supreme Court of the United States would uphold that.

Clearly, under our constitution, the Congress writes the laws, and the president executes them, and implements them, and upholds them. We're confident the court would do that. Honestly, I think the leadership that President Trump is providing on this issue is making it possible for us to move forward on priorities the president's expressed since the days of the campaign.

Look, the American people want us to build a wall. They want border security. They want to end the flow of illegal immigrants into this country, and also illicit drugs that are tearing apart families and communities across this country.

They also, in the wake of those terrorist attacks in this country recently, they want us to end the visa lottery program. They want us to reform and end chain migration in this country. And ultimately, I think the American people also want us to feel compassionately with the issue of DACA.

What the American people saw yesterday is, frankly, what I see every day as his vice president, and one meeting after another is President Trump bringing together people from diverse points of view, driving toward an objective. And we're confident, we're confident that even before the president's deadline of March is reached that we'll be able to achieve an outcome and will give credit to all those priorities.

MACCALLUM: Two elements of yesterday. One was exactly what you say in the wake of the Michael Wolff book, which portrayed the president as someone who is unfit for office. He clearly demonstrated the command that he has of the issues and the negotiating ability that he was sitting at that table. And I think it went a long way towards dispelling some of those notions yesterday.

On the other side, some of the president's biggest supporters when it comes to immigration, initially, during the campaign for sure, Ann Coulter, Tucker Carlson, on our own network, were really felt very betrayed by what the president said at that table yesterday. That he sort of gave away the farm on the issue. That he said just bring me something, bring me whatever you want and I'll sign it. I'll offer a pathway to citizenship. They felt that the issue of the wall and creating a border that is impenetrable, and sending people backward here illegal was swept away yesterday.

PENCE: Well, nothing could be further from the truth. The president made that clear a little later in the day. That -- this president, this administration, are absolutely committed to keeping promises we made to the American people. As the president said last weekend at Camp David, there's no DACA fix without a wall. We're going to build a wall. We're going to end chain migration. We're going to end the visa lottery program. And we're going to deal with DACA, but we're going to do it in a way that will meet the expectations of the American people. I have to tell you that what the American people saw yesterday is something that, you know, as I said before, I see every day.

As vice president, I spend three, four hours a day with the president, often times in the oval office and in meetings near the oval office. And I'm absolutely confident, on this issue and on a broad range of issue, whether it'd be infrastructure, rebuilding our military. This president is going to continue to bring that great leadership quality he has to bear. Leadership that has resulted in a growing economy and restored American credibility in the world, and we're going to solve this issue, and keep America moving forward.

MACCALLUM: I just want to go back one more time on the leverage issue though. Because, you know, Diane Feinstein, Senator Feinstein yesterday at the table said, let's just do a clean bill on continuing the government, continuing resolution, it ends January 19th. Let's just get that done. And we'll deal with DACA later. Is that the way the White House sees it at this point, given this ruling?

PENCE: No. The president believes that it's absolutely essential that we resolve all of the issues that were outlined in the meeting yesterday together. That we come to an agreement to build a wall. Keep that promise to the American people. That we come to an agreement to end the visa lottery program and chain migration, and that we also deal with compassion with the people of the DACA program.

MACCALLUM: All of that as part of the funding bill by January 19th?

PENCE: Well, let me be clear on that.


PENCE: We believe the negotiations that are underway, resulting in the wall, and DACA, and the changes in immigration reform, will come later. I think what we believe is going to be possible, as we make progress in reaching a bipartisan solution on these immigration issues, that that's going to facilitate us making the kind of funding agreement possible in the Congress to move forward. It's absolutely essential that Congress step up, pass a spending bill to rebuild our military at the level that President Trump has been driving.

Look, we have many challenges across the wider world. I'll be traveling to the Middle East in the coming weeks. I'll be traveling to the Olympics in South Korea next month. I mean, now, is the time as we started last year, to make a historic investment in our military, and President Trump is absolutely committed to reaching a bipartisan agreement to pass that spending bill, even while we work through these other issues on immigration.

MACCALLUM: Understood. So, sounds like what you're saying is that for the 19th, defense spending has to be in that (INAUDIBLE), is that correct? That's non-negotiable.

PENCE: The president's made it absolutely clear, that after years where sequestration has resulted in, frankly, unacceptable budget cuts in our military, that we have to reach an agreement on what's called budget caps. That we have to make a historic investment in our military. It's going to take some negotiation on some other domestic spending.

MACCALLUM: You need Democrats votes.

PENCE: It is, but we really believe --

MACCALLUM: They're going to want parity on things like opioids and is that -- that's OK?

PENCE: And this a president, just to make it very clear, he's deeply concerned about the opioid crisis facing communities and families across this country. We're prepared to support that, we're prepared to support more funding for veterans' issues. The president signed another bill yesterday to expanding mental health benefits to our veterans. But we believe we can reach an agreement on the spending bill. It will likely be facilitated by the progress that we're making on the immigration issue. But we'll get the spending bill done in time for the American people, and in time to make the investment in the military that we need to make.

MACCALLUM: And no DACA -- no continuation of DACA without a wall?

PENCE: I think the president's been very clear: there's no deal on DACA without a wall.

MACCALLUM: Without a physical wall?

PENCE: And not only without a wall, Martha, but also without ending the visa lottery program, and ending the kind of chain migration that has resulted in people coming into this country and has done harm to Americans in recent months. We've got to make these changes. The American people want to see it happen. As I traveled across this country, not only over the last year but during the course of the campaign, I heard from one American after another, that the flow of illegal immigration, the flow of illicit drugs is tearing apart families and communities, has got to end. And border security and a wall are central to that, and President Trump's going to accomplish it.

MACCALLUM: And you think you can get the 60 votes needed to do that?

PENCE: We're cautiously optimistic that he can. But make no mistake about it. There will be no deal on DACA unless there's funding for a wall and funding for the kind of changes in immigration that will put the safety and security of the American people first.


MACCALLUM: All right. So that's Vice President Pence digs into the fight over moving our embassy to Jerusalem. Also, his honest take on what he really expects to happen in the midterm; stick around for that. Also, the president gets some pushback on the border and the wall. Big, big topic today.


ANN COULTER, CONSERVATIVE COMMENTATOR: -- the lowest day of his presidency.


MACCALLUM: Lindsey Graham joins me next. He's got something to say to Ann Coulter, after this.



TRUMP: I feel having the Democrats in with us is absolutely vital, because this should be a bipartisan bill. This should be a bill of love. Truly, should be a bill of love, and we can do it.


MACCALLUM: President Trump promising a bill of love during his extraordinary bipartisan immigration meeting. Some conservatives though slammed it as, "a DACA lovefest". But others, like Senator Lindsey Graham, were all aboard the love train.


SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM, R-S.C.: I don't know if the Republican and Democratic Party can define love, but I think what we can do is do what the American people want us to do.


MACCALLUM: Moments ago, I spoke to Senator Graham about that.


MACCALLUM: A lot of talk about love in that meeting yesterday, and I know that you've felt that it was an extraordinary meeting, which I think lot of us who watched it thought it was pretty incredible.

GRAHAM: I love it. We should do it once a week.

MACCALLUM: You should do it once a week, right? Let me play for you what some of the critics had to say and I want to hear your thoughts go ahead.

RICK WILSON, REPUBLICAN POLITICAL STRATEGIST: I think Donald Trump got his gang of eight tattoos tonight and the members only jacket for (INAUDIBLE). Because this is a guy who literally sat there today and shredded the entire Bannon-Steve Miller agenda.

COULTER: When Kevin McCarthy is the hardliner on immigration in the room. I think we can call this the lowest day in the Trump presidency.

MACCALLUM: Those folks are not too happy, Senator Graham.

GRAHAM: Well, that's OK. Those folks don't have to solve problems. The president does. He's got to work with Democrats to fix problems like immigration. They don't. They're pretty muchoutliers when it comes to where the American people are. 62 percent of the Trump voters support a pathway to citizenship for the Dream Act kids, if you secure the border.

We're not going to have a deal without a wall component, you need a wall component. I think the president did a fabulous job at talking about this problem. He did it in a smart way, in a compassionate way, and, you know, his job is not to sell books. His job is not to carry a T.V. show. His job is to solve problems. And he's got to work with Democrats. And I was proud of my president yesterday.

MACCALLUM: I mean, I think everybody who listens to you can completely understand the task that you all have at hand. And I think whenever anyone runs for president, they tend to run, you know, sort of with a stronger stance on certain issues. And then, when they hit the reality of getting things done, as this president seems to want to do, it changes a bit. But very interesting when you look back at some of the rhetoric from the campaign. Jeb Bush was the one who talked about it being an act of love, and he was, he was lambasted by the president. The watch was posted by the Trump campaign during the campaign.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, they broke the law, but it's not a felony. It's kind of -- it's an act of love.

MACCALLUM: Love, forget love. It is time to get tough. So, has the president given away too much already in this negotiation? And where is this whole thing headed?

GRAHAM: I think -- I hope it's headed to phase one, where we get border security for the Dream Act, the DACA kids having a pathway to citizenship, that we end the diversity lottery like the president claims demands, and he's right to demand it. That we start breaking chain migration. That we get a deal that represents where the American people are. 83 percent of the American people support a pathway to citizenship. Overwhelming numbers support border security. I think most people think the diversity lottery is kind of crazy. This president is no longer a candidate. He's the president of all of us. You can't get this problem fixed without working with Democrats. You need 60 votes.

And what I saw yesterday, was a man who understood the issue, was in command of the room, listened intently, is going to take this country to a solution. For ten years, I've been working on this. Obama tried it, couldn't do it. Bush tried it, couldn't do it. Donald Trump will be the president that can do it. He's got credibility on the border security issue that nobody else has. He does have compassion in his heart for these kids. We're going to get a good deal under his leadership. And the difference between being a radio talk show host and T.V. personality and the president is that as president you've got to solve problems.

MACCALLUM: Let me ask you before I let you go, when is that going to happen? You know, when is that going to happen? Is it going to be part of this continuing resolution? If any of it is going to be part of that? Or is that going to be a clean bill that gets passed on the 19th? I talked to the vice president about this, this morning. And then it comes later? How do you see it right now?

GRAHAM: Right. If it doesn't happen in January, I'm not so sure it's ever going to happen. Both sides can say no to each other, but we've been doing that for ten years. We've got a moment in time here to have a breakthrough on immigration that makes sense -- border security for the DACA kids and some other things, ending the diversity lottery. But it will break through, in terms of the military spending increases. If we can get an agreement on immigration, then we can start to rebuild our military in a bipartisan fashion.

There's a lot at stake. There's a lot of lives that are going to be affected by what we do. We've got a chance here to fix a problem on immigration and rebuild our military. And I'm urging the president to continue what you did yesterday. Lead this nation. Challenge Democrats to meet you in the middle. And get this thing done. Mr. President, you're the right guy at the right time. You can do it. Nobody else has been able to do it. And I want to help you.

MACCALLUM: It sounds like you and the White House are on different pages in terms of timing. So, that's something that's going to have to be resolved. And we'll stick around for the next chapter on that. Senator Graham, always good to talk to you, sir. Thank you so much for being on THE STORY tonight.

GRAHAM: Thank you.


MACCALLUM: So, Dianne Feinstein said that she is not alone, but in the illustrious company of those given names by this president. He responded to her move releasing the closed door testimony of the head of Fusion GPS this way: "The fact that sneaky Dianne Feinstein who has, on numerous occasion, stated that collusion between Trump-Russia has not been found, would release testimony in such an under-handed a possibly illegal way today without authorization is a disgrace. Must have a tough primary," He writes. Here now, Alan Dershowitz, Harvard Law Professor Emeritus. Alan, good to see you tonight. Was it sneaky of Dianne Feinstein to do that? Or in your mind, was she in the right?

ALAN DERSHOWITZ, LAW PROFESSOR EMERITUS, HARVARD (via Skype): Well, she did it openly. You know, many years ago, I represented Senator Mike Gravel when he released the Pentagon papers as a member of the Senate. That's the job of senators and congressmen. There's nothing sneaky about it. There's certainly nothing illegal about it. Now, you can question whether a minority member of the committee, without authorization from the majority, should appropriately do it. That's an issue for the committee to resolve, it's an issue for the Senate to resolve. But under our separation of the power system, it's really not an issue for the president of the United States to declare to be either sneaky or criminal.

MACCALLUM: Yes. I mean, some others on the committee are concerned that it might chill others from coming forward and having those kinds of interviews, Jared Kushner is one of them.

DERSHOWITZ: And that's a fair point.

MACCALLUM: All right. I want to ask you about Michael Cohen, President Trump's Personal Lawyer, who today said enough is enough. He's going after BuzzFeed and CNN for releasing the contents of the dossier. Does he have a case?

DERSHOWITZ: Well, he's going to withdraw the case. Because the first person that BuzzFeed and CNN will call as a witness at the deposition will be President Trump. And they'll ask President Trump under oath about the dossier. And that's the last thing a lawyer wants to get his client in trouble over. So, I'm not sure whether Cohen got the authorization at his client, the president, to file this lawsuit.

The lawsuit will, in the end, I believe, be withdrawn because I don't think that Cohen's going to want to allow the critical witness to this lawsuit. The president of the United States, to sit for hours and hours, and perhaps days and days of depositions. Civil lawsuits are two-edged swords, when you bring them, you subject yourself and witnesses to the legal equivalent of a colonoscopy.

MACCALLUM: And what about the libel case that the president wants to -- he doesn't want to bring a case but wants to open up for discussion the libel laws in this country because he feels the subtext in all of this was the Michael Wolff, and he's lashing out against it.

DERSHOWITZ: Again, it's a two-edged sword. Because, if he makes libel laws more open-ended, he will be one of the first people to be sued for defamation for many of the things he's said. It sounds to me like this is a bluff. Now, there are changes in the libel laws that should be made. For example, you can say anything about anybody as long as you put it in court papers, and that exempts it from libel. And a lot of unethical people and unethical lawyers do that. They hide defamation in lawsuits and that should be changed. There are other improvements that can be made to defamation laws. But a broad-based change in defamation laws would be inconsistent with the first amendment.

MACCALLUM: Alan Dershowitz, thank you very much, sir. Always good to see you. Thanks for coming on tonight.

DERSHOWITZ: Thank you.

MACCALLUM: So, there's some polling available in what a Trump/Oprah matchup would actually look like. Karl Rove has brought numbers to back up his argument straight ahead. And also, up next, my exclusive interview with Vice President Mike Pence; his new message from the White House for Kim Jong-un is next.


PENCE: The message the president sent me to deliver a year ago is the same that I will deliver when I arrive in Korea again, and I visit Japan again, and that is that the era of strategic patience is over.



MACCALLUM: The focus of the world will soon be on the Korean peninsula, as South Korea hosts the winter Olympics. And for North Korea, that means plenty of propaganda is in the works right now. The north is reportedly planning to send its popular cheer squad to the games. The group of young women, typically about 20 years old, but the description says some of them are younger than that. They have the right ideology, these young ladies, according to the regime. The women are screened to ensure that they will be unlikely to defect or to be affected by other cultures when they travel or, God-forbid, have pro-Japan views in their family. Kim Jong-un's own wife was once a member of that squad. Earlier today, I spoke with the vice president about North Korea and other hot spots in foreign policy. Here's part two of our exclusive interview.

MACCALLUM: In terms of South Korea, jumping to the opening of the Olympics, which you'll represent the United States and our delegation at, which is very exciting. What do you make of the sort of softening between North Korea and South Korea in their allowing their team, small team, to participate in the Olympics? What does that signal to you?

PENCE: The president sent me to the region a year ago. And I'll be honored to lead a delegation to the Olympics in South Korea in the next month. But the message the president sent me to deliver a year ago is the same that I will deliver when I arrive in Korea again, and I visit Japan again, and that is the era of strategic patience is over. For literally two decades, one administration after the other has exercised a level of patience and negotiation that has resulted in the dictatorship in North Korea developing ballistic and nuclear missiles that may well threaten the United States of America as we speak. That's unacceptable. President Trump has brought unprecedented economic and diplomatic pressure to bear on the regime in Pyongyang. We'll continue to do that. Part of my message in going is going to be to stand with those American athletes and know that we're cheering them on and wishing them well. But the under lying message is, the president is sending us there to make it clear that we stand with South Korea. We stand with our allies in the region. And we will continue to bring maximum economic and diplomatic pressure to bear until North Korea abandons its nuclear and ballistic missile programs that threaten the United States of America.

MACCALLUM: In terms of Egypt, which you would also visit, there has been some anger there over the decision to move the capital of Israel to Jerusalem. Your meetings were cancelled with top Christian leader, with Abbas. Can you really move the peace process forward if you can't meet with that side of the equation?

PENCE: I'm looking very much forward to meeting with President el-Sisi in Egypt, King Abdullah in Jordan, and also visiting Israel. It was more than 20 years that one administration after another, and one congress after another recognized that Jerusalem was the capital of Israel, but no American president would step forward and make that decision a reality. President Trump had the courage of his convictions to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. It will be my great honor as vice president to visit and affirm that decision.

That being said, the president also in making that decision, Martha, I said if the parties can agree on a two-state solution that we'll support it. That the president recommitted the United States to engagement in the peace process. And what I'll tell President el-Sisi and King Abdullah and other leaders in the region is that we remain committed to peace. But what the president did in making that decision and in making it a reality was he essentially took off of the table an issue that really wasn't negotiable to this administration or to the American people. Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. The president said that we have recognized the obvious. We have affirmed the will of the American people. But now our hope is that we can move forward and begin to discuss those issues that can be negotiated in the hopes of achieving a lasting peace.

MACCALLUM: So, what concrete steps have been taken so far to actually move the embassy there?

PENCE: The planning is under way. As you're well aware, we have a consulate in Jerusalem today, but as the president said, it would be necessary for us to make planning to choose a location and to develop a structure --

MACCALLUM: Is there a target date?

PENCE: I think it will probably be several years before we cut the ribbon, but the decision is made. We're moving our embassy to the capital of Israel. It will be my great honor as vice president to visit Israel's capital later this month.

MACCALLUM: President el-Sisi and you're meeting with him. Some feel that we need to push back on that relationship. That presenting it as a strong partnership doesn't really tell the whole story. That they have entered into military deals to do reciprocal base agreements with Russia. That they sided with Russia in the U.N. when it comes to Syrian and the Israeli- Palestinian conflict against our interest, is that something that you're going to bring up with the president of Egypt?

PENCE: I've had the privilege of meeting President el-Sisi when he visited Washington, D.C., and I'm grateful to have the opportunity to visit with him. I expect we'll talk about a broad range of issues. And I'll be delivering a message of the appreciation that President Trump has for the relationship that he's forged with President el-Sisi, but also, our desire to see Egypt continue to step forward as a leader in the region, a leader for peace.

And also, one of the issues I'll be addressing as well is the plight that is facing Christian and religious minorities. Egypt has seen in recent day, even, great violence against Christian churches. And at the President Trump's direction last fall, we're reorganizing U.S. AID funding to go directly to Christian NGO's in the region. Not only across the Arab world, but specifically in areas of Iraq and Syria beset by war.

MACCALLUM: But just to follow up, in terms of aid to Egypt and military funding, there's been discussion about cutting that back in the Trump administration. Will that be followed through on? And will you essentially say that if there aren't more oppression to human rights standards the we abide by in Egypt that they would risk losing that military funding?

PENCE: Well, I think the support that we provide Egypt is a key element of our relationship. But, you know, ultimately, my message is going to be, how can we find ways to continue to strengthen the ties between the United States and Egypt, and make it possible for us to move forward in a way that advances the security of both of our countries and the security of the region.

MACCALLUM: OK. Congress just hopping forward to your visit to Nevada this week, you'll be there to support team --. How strong do you see your role in terms of the 2018 elections? A lot of the procrastinator are looking at their model and saying that Republicans are going to have a pretty uphill battle in 2018.

PENCE: Well, for the party in power in the White House, history teaches that that first midterm election is always a challenge. But President Trump and I are very optimistic. Think about the progress that we've made in the last year. I mean, this is a president that's rolled back more federal red tape than any president in American history. The appointment of Justice Neil Gorsuch to the Supreme Court, more court of appeals justices in a single year than any president in history. Historic tax cuts, all of which has created an environment where 2 million new jobs, unemployment at a 17 year low.

You reflected on African-American unemployment is at a 17 year low as well in this country. We're making tremendous progress. And I think it's all a result of the leadership that President Trump has provided and we think that's a great story to tell. And the president and I are absolutely committed to traveling all across this country, supporting candidates for the house and senate and governors across country to make sure that we continue to have partners all across this nation to advance the president's agenda.

MACCALLUM: We look forward to watching all of that. And good luck on your trip. We wish you the best as you setoff for the Middle East and for South Korea and the Olympics as well. Mr. Vice President, thank you very much for your time today. Good to see you as always.

PENCE: Thank you, Martha.

MACCALLUM: So, world famous actress taking some heat for saying that we're in danger of losing our sexual freedoms and that flirtation and seduction are not crimes. So how far is too far for #MeToo, and the shows that we grew up with, are they the next to come under scrutiny.




UNINDENTIFIED MALE: It would have bothered me if they'd done this.



MACCALLUM: So as Hollywood forges ahead with the Me Too movement, it took a bit of a hit abroad. French film star, Catherine Deneuve, joins -- a hundred, rather, women in an open letter denouncing the movement she thinks has gone too far. She said in quote, rape is a crime, but insistent or clumsy flirting is not a crime, nor is gallantry a chauvinist aggression. We believe that the freedom to say no to a sexual proposition cannot exist without the freedom to bother.

We consider that one must know how to respond to bother, as she puts it, in other ways than by closing ourselves off in a rule of prey. Great French. Very French. Katie Pavlich is news editor at, and Charlie Hurt political columnist at the Washington Times, both are Fox News contributors. Charlie was the only man brave enough to take on this, so we will start with him. What do you think about the letter?

CHARLIE HURT, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: I think she makes a really good point, you know. And among the problems with what we're seeing today is the whole lumping in with the very serious things that people have been accused of are all this sort of ridiculous clumsy, ham fisted flirting. There's a big difference between the two. When you lump in the flirting with the serious stuff, you cheapen the serious stuff.

MACCALLUM: Katie, I mean, there's a lot of push back to this letter, obviously, and it digs into a lot of things about sexual freedoms and what's been fought for and how women, you know -- basically you don't want to end flirtation. You don't want to end the art of seduction, you know, God-forbid, the French would be very upset.

KATIE PAVLICH, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Yeah, the French would be upset. But the letter was actually fascinating. And I urge everyone to read it because I think that we do have to look at both sides of this equation here. And they make some very sound arguments about what the end game would be if we just get rid of any kind of propositioning. And there does have to be a line between sexual assault and cat calling. In France, right now, they're deciding that they want to make cat calling a crime with fine for men who happen to do it.

And in this letter they make the point that, look, sex and sexual nature is wild and aggressive because we're human beings and that's the way taht we're wired. But how we deal with that as a civil society and women standing up for themselves and saying no is the issue. Now, you can't always do that if you're in a situation where Harvey Weinstein is running the whole show and your life depends on getting a job from him. However, the broad brush approach to this that we've gone into, the man hating, all men are wrong, any accusation should be believed without any kind of evidence, that is I think what they're pushing back here.

MACCALLUM: Well put. Robert Johnson, the media educator at Syracuse University, said he presented some examples of "Mash" and "Cheers," the one that we've just showed, and his students, when he saw what's happening in these shows were horrified. Here's two examples. One is Pepe Le Pew, which you probably remember, he's always going after Penelope. And then, there is a little clip from "It's a Wonderful Life." Watch.


UNINDENTIFIED MALE: You are my (INAUDIBLE). I am your brittle. Hmmm-mmm- mmm.

UNINDENTIFIED MALE: This is a very interesting situation.

UNINDENTIFIED FEMALE: Please give me my robe. I'll call the police.

UNINDENTIFIED MALE: They're way downtown. They'd be on my side, too.

UNINDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm going to scream.

UNINDENTIFIED MALE: Maybe I can sell tickets.



MACCALLUM: You know, I mean, and the "Mash" scene, you know, was a little bit more aggressive, you know, the shower curtain came down on Hot Lips as she was called, and she's horrified. But they were always giving her a hard time. But Charlie, you know, it's like the students watching this and they see things very differently than we did growing up.

HURT: Unfortunately, I think a big part of that is the fact that they see everything through sort of a legal lens, or an H.R. lens, or some sort of lens that sort of takes away all of the human aspects. At the end of the day -- we talked about this before, at the end of the day, it is all about human decency and it's about respecting one another, and if you follow those basic rules about respecting one another, it's gonna be fine. It's gonna work out just fine. But when people clearly go over the line, it's obvious. What Harvey Weinstein did, to the potted plant in front of the poor woman that he's with in the kitchen, you know, that's just unacceptable in any circumstance. Pepe Le Pew would never have done that.


MACCALLUM: Very aggressive though. Katie, what do you think?

PAVLICH: I just watch those clips and think thank God I am married because I don't have to deal with the dating world anymore. So that's exactly what it reminds me of. But more on the serious note, I don't think you have to look back in time, pop culture in America to see this problem. If you look at recent Hollywood films that are out today, the objectification of women is a center of Hollywood now. And until that changes, until sex is not the center of what they do in Hollywood, I just don't see the attitude around using women for that purpose changes either.

MACCALLUM: It's a great point. You know, you think of some of the crude stuff that the kids in that class were probably passing around on their phones and thinking nothing of. And they see that and all their alarm bells go off. Thanks you, guys. Great to see you both tonight.


MACCALLUM: So, the results just came in. We're fast forwarding a bit here. Who would triumph if it actually came down to President Donald Trump versus Oprah Winfrey? We will show you the numbers, and Karl Rove has some numbers he wants to crunch on this issue on the white board when we come back.


UNINDENTIFIED MALE: Could you beat Oprah, by the way?

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Yeah, I'll beat Oprah. Oprah would be a lot of fun.



MACCALLUM: So, if she was a candidate, Oprah Winfrey picking up some steam according to a new national telephone and online survey -- we never know how good these are, obviously, so we'll show you what the numbers are and you could decide for yourselves. It shows Oprah Winfrey with 48 percent, Donald J. Trump, president of the United States of America, at 38 percent, and 14 percent undecided, which means they could throw that whole thing either way once they made up their mind. Here now Karl Rove, former deputy chief of staff to George W. Bush, and a Fox News contributor. Good evening, Karl. We have you back on white board Oprah Watch tonight. What do you make of those numbers?

KARL ROVE, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Oh, my God. Are we really doing this? Please.


MACCALLUM: Yes, we are.

ROVE: All right. We'll look at some numbers. We'll look at some numbers. You're right, 48-38. Don't know how good the poll is. But I do know this, last March, Quinnipiac said do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion of Oprah Winfrey, 52 favorable, 23 unfavorable, 25 didn't know enough to offer an opinion. You want her to run for president, 69 percent said no, 21 percent said yes. So, while they liked her 2 to 1, the object of running for president, there's a big difference between just sort of being popped into one of these surveys and then, actually, do people want you to run? Look, more important than that, we're three years, just over three years -- just under three years away from the presidential election. We're probably a year and a half away from the presidential primaries starting to get going. So what is the utility of a poll now doing a matchup for 2020? How likely is a head to head matchup gonna tell us what will happen in three years? I think it's down near Oprah -- I mean, zero. Zero.

MACCALLUM: Yeah. But I think that's what you said when Donald Trump took the ride down the escalator, too, with all due respect. It's too far away. It'll never happen.

ROVE: I said it would never happen. I didn't say it's too far away. I said it wouldn't happen.

MACCALLUM: All right. So let's talk about something a little more practical and right in front of us. As you look towards the midterm, the Ohio race is shaping up to be the White House versus Mitch McConnell again, because the White House seems to be circling around Jim Renacci who was going to run for governor, and today decided to run for senate. Then you've got J.D. Vance of Hillbilly Elegy fame who Mitch McConnell is backing. Your quick thoughts on that before I let you go?

ROVE: Well, I'm not certain -- look, first of all, I like Jim Renacci a lot. If you look back in his dark history, guess who -- I think the first person to go in and speak at a fund-raiser for him when he ran in 2010. That might be me. So I like him. A good man. I was taken aback a little when he said he would get in the race if the president asked him. He's jumping in the race. I'm not sure the president is going to get involved in this primary. And we've got until a couple more weeks until the filing deadline, and then the primary much later in the year.

MACCALLUM: We'll be watching. Karl Rove, thank you so much. Good to see you --

ROVE: You bet.

MACCALLUM: -- on your white board as always. So stick around, quote of the night, up next.


MACCALLUM: So thank you for sending us your favorite quotes. Ronnie in Savanna, Georgia, sent quote of the night from Susan B. Anthony, while we're on the subject of Me Too and Oprah. She said this, "The day will come when man will recognize women as his peer. Not only on the fireside, but in the council of the nation. Then, and not only until then will there be the perfect comradeship, the ideal union between the sexes that shall result in the highest development of the race." Amen to that. Email me yours at with your name and your town. Thanks for joining us tonight. That's "The Story." Tucker is up next.

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