Trump hosts immigration reform debate at White House

This is a rush transcript from "The Five," January 9, 2018. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

KIMBERLY GUILFOYLE, CO-HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Kimberly Guilfoyle along with Juan Williams, Jesse Watters, Dana Perino and Greg Gutfeld. It's 5:00 in New York City and this is "The Five."

A breakthrough on immigration, a big meeting today at the White House between President Trump and leaders of congress on both sides of the aisle. The American people got to witness this one, and it was pretty extraordinary. The president allowed cameras to roll for more than 45 minutes as he and lawmakers negotiated how best to reach an immigration deal. He's now open to an agreement coming in two phases. First, addressing young immigrants and border security with broader issues to be settled later.


SEN. DIANNE FEINSTEIN, D-CALIF.: What about a clean DACA bill now and with the commitment that we go in to a comprehensive immigration reform procedure.

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: I have no problem. I think that's basically what Dick is saying. We're going to come up with DACA, we're going to do DACA, and then we can start immediately on the phase two which would be comprehensive.


TRUMP: I think a lot of people would like to see that. But I think we have to do DACA first.


GUILFOYLE: The president thinks the legislation should be a bill of love and offered to take any heat for blowback set to come.


UNINDENTIFIED MALE: Sixty two percent of the Trump voters support a pathway to citizenship for the DACA kids if you have strong borders. You have created an opportunity here, Mr. President, and you need to close the deal.

TRUMP: If we do this properly, DACA, you're not so far away from comprehensive immigration reform. And if you want to take it that further step, I'll take the heat. I don't care. I don't care. I'll take all the heat you want to give me. And I'll take the heat of both the Democrats and the Republicans. My whole life has been heat. I like heat, in a certain way.


GUILFOYLE: I love the heat. There is still one thing he's not willing to compromise on.


UNINDENTIFIED MALE: Is there any agreement without the wall?

TRUMP: No. You need it. You need the wall. I mean, it's wonderful. I'd love not to build a wall but you need the wall. And I will tell you this, the ICE officers and the border patrol agents I have them, just recently, they say if you don't have the wall, you know, in certain areas, obviously, that aren't protected by nature, if you don't have a wall, you cannot have security. Just can't have it. It doesn't work.


GUILFOYLE: All right. Did you love it, Dana? It's like the wall.

DANA PERINO, CO-HOST: It's absolutely fascinating. And I have to say, being in D.C., a lot a meetings are like that behind the scenes and then afterwards both sides go to their own cameras and microphones or they'll take turns and they're actually much more partisan in their plain to their base. And what this did was, basically, it was like watching a city council meeting on local access television, but you're actually in the cabinet room with the president and bipartisan lawmakers who did not know that this was going to happen. And what I thought was interesting as everyone actually was there and knew what they were talking about. One thing Dianne Feinstein try to do I thought was pretty smart and strategic is she suggests why don't we just do a clean DACA bill, and the president is like, yeah, that's great. And then McCarthy very subtle said, actually, that wouldn't include security. We need security. And so it's a little risky to be openly negotiating like that, but I thought -- amazingly refreshing.

Also I think that a lot of the hardliners, when it comes, especially, to dreamers and DACA have backed off. Above the falls, front page story on USA Today, included three quotes on the front page from -- I say pretty hardline immigration group saying if we need to do amnesty for children who were brought here illegally and it's not their fault, congress won't have any problem from us. So the president is really, actually, at this opportunity where he could do something. And what Lindsey Graham was saying is that your voters actually want you to do this but we're going to need you to take the heat. The president says he's willing to do so if the right wants to come after us and primary us because we're going to vote for something that makes actual common sense. It's a far cry from where we were on the campaign trail when it comes to immigration, but I think that if you can get to a good solution, let political bygones be bygones and just get it done.

GUILFOYLE: All right. Jesse, the wall.

JESSE WATTERS, CO-HOST: Looked like a very stable genius out there.



WATTERS: I like boardroom Trump, almost as much as I like rally Trump.

GUILFOYLE: I love it.

WATTERS: Boardroom Trump is good. This is -- he also used this line when he said fire and fury. When he goes like this, I think everything under is under control. He's kind of like the martini that gets everybody talking. He drove a lot of momentum at that meeting. I've never seen so much bipartisanship. Dana said it's always behind closed doors. I've never seen that kind of wheeling and dealing among both sides like that ever before. It was an incredible scene to watch. The cornerstone of the deal is chain migration, lottery, the wall and merit-based. That's what Trump wants. The left wants the DACA. They want the clean DACA vote. Trump almost fell for it and then got rescued when he said, whoa, whoa, whoa, we're not going to do the DACA deal unless we have some border security.

The wall will be built. The chain migration is ridiculous. If we want to hire someone from H.R., we don't call K.G. and say, you know, is your uncle in H.R.? That's not how we do it. I don't know why America doesn't like that. And then the lottery, America is not a roulette table. I don't know why we're playing chance with our immigration system. We should use our brains. And then, merit-based, he said that's what Canada does. I thought the liberals love Canada. We want to emulate their health care system.
Let's emulate their immigration system too. But, who know. I think the Democrats are squarely. If they do get anything clean, I don't trust that they're going to commit to merit, lottery, or the wall. That's what you've got to do it all at once. So it's a risky deal. Like what Trump says he's ready to take the heat. He loves heat. He loves it.

GUILFOYLE: Love it. Almost as much as the wall. OK. So Juan, what did you make of this in terms, you know, the optics that he's actually showing
-- giving the American people a front row seat to how these negotiations go? And also kind of like calling out people, like what are they supportive off? What do they not supportive? Also, probably, showcasing his intelligence and deal making skills.

JUAN WILLIAMS, CO-HOST: Yes, his genius stability. So I think this is something that's been evident. I've written about this last month that it's pretty evident that Donald Trump has opened the door to a deal, a comprehensive deal, because -- guess what, he's the one that set March as the deadline for the dreamers to have a deal, and said to the Democrats let's make a deal. But he's been talking in hard terms just as Jesse was suggesting about the wall, about chain migration. And these things, the wall, it's not just going to happen. I mean, not only the Democrats not in the mood for it because they think it's ridiculous, but the dreamers have been, as you recall, attacking Nancy Pelosi as she was speaking in San Francisco, and say we're not a bargaining chip. Why are you doing this?
Of course, they held off in December. Now we have it front and center.

The key here is that Trump wants a deal. He says what we have in common is both sides want a deal. The problem in dealing with Donald Trump, the great businessman negotiator, is when you come to the nitty-gritty, when you come to the fine points, he's lacking. He doesn't know the fine points. He just knows we want a deal, so let's make a deal. But now, the problem has been -- remember the problem going back to George W. Bush in '06, the problem coming forward with Obama and the gang of eight, I think that was in '15 if I'm right, or '16. Is that you get the far right talk show people saying, oh, my God. This is amnesty. This is amnesty. If you want to come in this6 country, you should get to the back of the line.
These people should all be thrown out, like you're going to throw 12 million people out. And then they say, oh, this is just a matter of law.
It's a matter of law. They broke the law. They're bad people. The conversation devolved. I think that's what Trump is going to have to experience. He says he'll take the heat, but even for a stable genius, Jesse, it's going to be a lot of heat coming from the right.

WATTERS: Oh, he loves it, and he's dealt with heat his whole life, Juan.

WILLIAMS: I'm all for it because I think he'd be taking heat principally from the freedom caucus and the Sean Hannity world.

WATTERS: It's Nixon goes to China. Only Trump can do it.


WATTERS: . immigration plan with love and he can get away with saying something like that because he talked about kicking out all the bad hombres.

WILLIAMS: Yeah. Look, he just kicked out -- right now, you've got 200,000 El Salvadorans who were here as a matter of a voucher, some kind of benefit because of the chaos in El Salvador, and then he apply the same standard to the Haitians, the Nicaraguans. He's alienated just about everybody south of the border. And I don't know if now he's willing to alienate his hard right supporters.

GUILFOYLE: OK. Let's not alienate Greg on our border.

GREG GUTFELD, CO-HOST: I was just about to go to another show.

GUILFOYLE: You're that versatile.

GUTFELD: Exactly. I love it when he called it a bill of love because that explosion you heard afterwards was Ann Coulter's head. Trump is going to make a deal. You elected a dealmaker. And he's working the assumption that if you're for Trump you will accept any kind of Trump there is. I happen to believe he's right because when you saw -- what you today, and I don't think you can underplay what you saw today. What you saw today was something no president really has done. This is the most transparent presidency you will ever see. I mean, well, I can't say that because we haven't seen what's going to happen next when the robots running our country. But he's a human cannonball. He jumps in, makes the loudest noise and the biggest splash and then the pool settles. And then he figures out something that everyone can agree to disagree on or agree not to do or to do. He figures out the deal. But he gets in there and he makes some noise. This was a response in my opinion to the book.

GUILFOYLE: That's what I'm saying.

GUTFELD: And the thing is a lot of people are saying that as a negative.
No, it was a great response. Think about this comparison, all right. This is the bigger story here. The media is chasing a mental health fantasy right now. They're chasing a mental health fantasy. Meanwhile, Trump is chasing a mental health reality. Today, he expanded coverage for veterans for mental health because of the rise in suicides. This is to lower suicide rates. So while the despicable media is believing in some batty doctor who basically fell off the face off the earth after calling him a danger to society, and now she's walking it back. What's her name? Bandy?
I can't think of her name. He's out there trying to help and save lives.
That is an amazing contrast. But again, you've got to go back to this meeting. That was really -- everybody who watched it was transfixed and it was pretty funny watching other networks admit, like, this is something good. And I have to say I'm really getting tired of hearing the word dreamers. We're all dreamers, all right? There is no dreamer privilege here. Just because you're a specific person doesn't make you a dreamer, everybody in the United States is a dreamer. So stop calling this specific group dreamer. That's dreamer privilege.

WILLIAMS: Wait a second, what are you saying? Because these are people who came.


GUTFELD: I understand what it is, Juan. It's a way of trying to separate it so that these people who disadvantaged and unique but the rest of us are all bad people. No, we're all dreamers.


GUTFELD: It's about everybody who wants strong enforcement of the border is somehow hateful and evil.

WILLIAMS: No, I didn't say that.

GUTFELD: You've just said like 4 minutes of that.

WILLIAMS: No, I didn't.


WILLIAMS: Run the tape. We have the video tape. What I'm saying most Democrats oppose the wall because they see it as a redundant and a waste of money because we have.

WATTERS: That's not why they oppose it.


GUTFELD: They don't care about the money. There is no such thing to Democrats as a waste of money.

WILLIAMS: OK. All right. I hear the rhetoric.

GUTFELD: That's not rhetoric.

WILLIAMS: . we have put more boots on the ground on the border. We've put drones in the air. We've put electronic sensors. We have a better system.
At the moment, net migration is zero. So what you get for the people you don't want to call the dreamers, this 62 percent of Americans.

GUTFELD: All of us are dreamers, Juan.


WILLIAMS: Kids who came as children.


PERINO: The Obama administration who gave the name to them as the dreamers.

GUTFELD: Yeah, exactly.

PERINO: It automatically evokes some sympathy. It's like the Clinton global initiative. You always had to say, well, they do good work but.

GUTFELD: I think it's time to retire that. I think what you're going to see is enhanced border security and a pathway to citizenship together because that's what Trump is going to do. And right now, the shrink who said he was unstable is shrinking right now because the people that are looking really small are the people who are talking about instability on other networks.

GUILFOYLE: You came in late but you finished strong. Way to go, my man.
All right. More breaking news out of the nation's capital, we are getting our first look at testimony from the Fusion GPS founder about the Trump dossier. The developing details are out of a spy movie. You don't want to miss it.


WILLIAMS: This is a Fox News alert, a bombshell revelation involving the Trump dossier. A lawyer for the founder of Fusion GPS says someone has been killed as a result of the publication. This development is part of a newly released testimony. It comes from a senate committee interview with fusion officials. Chief intelligence correspondent Catherine Herridge joins us right now. Catherine, thanks for being here. What can you tell us about this?

CATHERINE HERRIDGE, FOX NEWS: OK, Juan. So this transcript is over 300 pages long. I have one section here that relates to the claims that you're referencing. It really is the kind of transcript you need to read a couple times to fully get your arms around. But in the course of the interview, the lawyer, Joshua Levy, makes the claim that after the dossier was made public a year ago this month by BuzzFeed, that someone was killed as a result. But he doesn't provide further information as to who that individual was and how it was somehow connected to the publication of the dossier, Juan.

WILLIAMS: We're also hearing, Catherine, that the FBI had a source inside the Trump campaign even as the dossier was being prepared, and that therefore lead them to think that some of the information dossier was credible.

HERRIDGE: Well, it's right. So Glenn Simpson, who you just see there on the screen, he testified that the British spy, Christopher Steele, who put the research together for the dossier went to the FBI in July, as well late September, early October, just before the presidential election because he felt he was witnessing a crime in progress based on the information he had about these alleged Russian contacts. And in the transcript, Glenn Simpson tells the committee investigators that Steele shared with him that the FBI believe or felt what Steele was saying was credible in part because they had his words of human source inside the Trump campaign. Now, since the transcript has been released there's been a fair amount of pushback about that claims. Sources close to Simpson have told NBC News as well as the Washington Post that what he really meant was that the FBI had intelligence from the Australians and it related to that Trump campaign aide, George Papadopoulos, who, as you know, pled guilty to lying to the FBI. And that's really quite a different than what, in fact, is in this transcript, Juan.

WILLIAMS: Catherine, thank you so much. We appreciated.

HERRIDGE: You're welcome.

WILLIAMS: Kimberly, what do you make of the idea that what we know from this releases is that Simpson, Glenn Simpson, the head of Fusion GPS, wanted this released because he said Republicans have been trying to undermine the investigation into Trump and the Russians.

GUILFOYLE: Yeah. I think this is a really pretty much a bombshell. I don't know if people, necessarily, saw, you know, this coming, and just what the repercussions can be of a situation like this. There's been criticism where people have said, oh, why are we continuing to cover this or why are we continuing -- we should cover it. We should chase on the facts of the details. And when you do, you find out information like this.
It doesn't look good. I think it helps, you know, the president in terms of what he was saying about the optics of this, and what the motivation was, and that people were trying to get after him and do some harm to his reputation, to his campaign, to his potential, you know, presidency. But it's really out of like a spy movie. It's almost incredible.

WILLIAMS: Greg, what do you make of it in terms of the idea, they say that, you know, according to FBI sources, according to the dossier sources, the Kremlin, potentially, was feared to be able to blackmail Trump.

GUTFELD: I think that's what the Kremlin does with just about anybody in power. I don't know. I can't get worked up about it. Bottom line, if you don't like Trump, then Steele is a whistle-blower. If you don't have a problem with Trump, Steele comes off as a crank. The bottom line, I don't really feel that we've moved anywhere on this. I think the last thing America wanted was a 312 page transcript on some dirt digger trying to set
the record straight on his dirt digging. Thank you, Senator Feinstein,
for making this available.

PERINO: Feinstein.

GUTFELD: Feinstein. Whoops. By the way, you read this thing, they say somebody got killed and there's no follow-up question?


GUTFELD: Like, hey, who? Nobody says, who? By the way, somebody got killed. Why would you say that? That's your way of saying I don't want to give any more information out because I don't want anyone else to die.
That's a strategy and that sounds a little weird. I mean, who is it? Ex- KGB? Was it somebody carrying -- did they have a heart attack carrying the redacted whatever? I don't know. We don't know.

WILLIAMS: You know what's interesting here.

GUILFOYLE: That's next week.

GUTFELD: Yes, tomorrow.

WILLIAMS: What's interesting to me is that suddenly people are taking the whole dossier a little more seriously, it seems to me.

PERINO: Really?


PERINO: I don't know. I think -- one thing that's pretty strange is you have a special counsel investigation that's ongoing. Then you have the house and the senate, both are ongoing, and it's super confusing. Then you have the testimony from Fusion GPS. And then an op-ed in the New York Times written by those people, Simpson -- I can't remember his co-partner.
His partner saying that they wanted this transcript released, but, of course, they knew that it was going to be in there that somebody was killed. Like, of course, nobody wants anybody else to get killed. And it's impossible for us to just wait for a conclusion from the special prosecutor. I understand that. But I think it would behoove us to do so.

WILLIAMS: But I'm saying, right now, a lot of people, especially people on the right, say this dossier has been proven to be scurrilous to have no value. Instead, what you have now is Simpson at GPS and others, and the Democrats on the committee led by Feinstein, saying, hey, we wanted out because we think, in fact, you will see the FBI believes a great deal of this information, and if you look at people like Carter Page going over there and giving speeches for money, coming back. The George Papadopoulos connection coming -- the information coming from Australia. It sounds like, oh, they have reason to believe the dossier, Jesse.

WATTERS: I mean, I read all 300 pages, Juan. I'm an expert on this dossier. And I'll break it down for you. The headline that jumps out at me here is that Comey and Hillary paid a foreign agent for dirt on Trump.
This guy was paid by the FBI. The FBI has been denying this. Now we have Glenn Simpson saying, yeah, this guy was paid. That's a pretty big deal to me. So, this guy is getting paid by Hillary. He's double billing the FBI.
And then he's shopping the Trump dirt to the mainstream media.

WILLIAMS: Wait a second.

WATTERS: Now people are dying.

WILLIAMS: I think the FBI didn't say that they have paid him.

WATTERS: They said they didn't. But now you have him telling these investigators that he was paid. So, someone is dead. Usually, the mainstream media when someone dies goes and chases this stuff down. I don't think they're going to do any of that. There seems to be little interest about the dossier. I think I'm interested in it because it's salacious. And you keep saying that it was B.S.

GUILFOYLE: At least he's honest.

WATTERS: Juan has kept saying for the last month that the dossier, most of it is true.


WATTERS: Tell me what's true about.

WILLIAMS: I don't want to get into any details because I don't have it.

WATTERS: So you don't know. So you don't know.

WILLIAMS: Hang on. I was making the point -- I think the point was also made today that the FBI believes this was a credible document. Not because they were getting other information to confirm many elements in the dossier.

WATTERS: They said Trump's lawyer went to the Czech Republic to have a secret meeting with the Russians. It turns out his passport has never been to the Czech Republic. That is just blatantly erroneous. Start there.

WILLIAMS: Right, that was a mistake.



WILLIAMS: Jesse comes out on top. Ahead, President Trump weighing in today on all the Oprah for president buzz. Well, come on right back, we'll be buzzing about it here on The Five.


PERINO: Jesse says he can't dance to that. He probably could have. But he does not too. All right. We're getting -- get to the segment. When President Trump threw his hat in the ring for election 2016, remember the Democrats snickered at the idea of a candidate from showbiz.


BARACK OBAMA, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: He knows how to get attention. He's the classic reality TV character. And at this early stage, it's not surprising that he's gotten a lot of attention.

UNINDENTIFIED FEMALE: We can't have a reality TV star that has no concept of public policy to step foot in the oval office. He cannot have the nuclear codes.

UNINDENTIFIED MALE: He is a reality TV star. He's very experienced at providing television entertainment. The presidency is not about entertainment.



PERINO: But now, they seem to be warmed up to the idea of a celebrity with no political experience in the White House following Oprah's big splash at the Golden Globes. There are headlines like these all over the papers, the prospect of President Winfrey thrills Dems. This prospect also go a positive reaction from President Trump.


TRUMP: I would beat Oprah. Oprah would be a lot of fun. I know her very well. You know, I did one of her last shows. She had Donald Trump -- this is before politics -- her last week. And she had Donald Trump and my family. It was very nice.

No, I like Oprah. I don't think she's going to run.


PERINO: This is all based off of one speech...


PERINO: ... from the Golden Globes. Obviously, we -- everybody has been talking about Oprah for a while. And the battle for the Democrats' heart and soul is taking another turn. So do the Democrats want to go to the far left, like a lot of the base wants them to go, or do they take a try with a TV star?

GUTFELD: Well, you can see your bumper sticker already. It just says "Win-frey." And "win" is, like, in blue. And then opposition could be "Noprah."


GUTFELD: Which would be good. It's less about pocketbook than persuasion, though. You can't say, "Oh, they've got a billionaire. Let's get a billionaire." It's like, "He's tall. Let's get somebody who's tall." It doesn't work that way.


GUTFELD: It's about persuasion. And I mean, I think that's what we -- that's what I learned from this thing. Was that, like, you've got to be fast; you've got to be funny; you've got to be memorable, especially when you have a bunch of people up on the stage.

Donald Trump is a historical figure in the sense that he's not a politician, which gives a message to a lot of people who didn't live their lives in order to become president or become a politician and, therefore, have lived less careful lives. And he has lived a less careful life and has managed to be president.

But for the Democrats, they should also be figuring, not if it's Oprah or whoever -- they've got to get beyond identity politics, toxic avenging, and victimhood. That's their No. 1 thing. Hillary thought she could ride that magic carpet of gender into the White House and went right into Trump.

PERINO: The wall.

GUTFELD: The wall.

PERINO: Literally. Kimberly, do you think that Oprah want to put herself through the scrutiny that comes with running for office?

GUILFOYLE: You know, she might be excited by the -- all the talk about it from people, kind of like the hype and excitement. Gayle King, her best friend forever, has said, "Oh, no, she's not going to do it. She's not going to 100 percent rule it out but not really considering it."

I wouldn't be surprised if she ran. I mean, Greg has been talking about it forever.

GUTFELD: That is true.

GUILFOYLE: So who knows? But it was interesting, the president's remarks about it. And he says if she ran, he could beat her and that -- that he liked her. He was on one of her last shows, showing that he's, you know, a big ratings grabber. So it's -- he's going to be a lot of fun. But he doesn't think she's going to do it.

PERINO: All right. Well, they're telling me I only have a minute left, so I'll split it between you two. Usually the electorate wants to go for a polar opposite of whoever was the president before. Is Oprah really the polar opposite?

WATTERS: I think the polar opposite of Trump would be a short, thin, Hispanic female from rural America. I mean, I can't think of anything else.

You know, Oprah gave a speech about sexual assault, and now we're supposed to give her the codes to the nuclear football? I don't know about that. I don't think ISIS fears Oprah.

And Trump actually tapped into something real. I think Oprah tapped into some Hollywood vibes, maybe that. And I don't want another campaign run on sexism. And it's going to be on sexism and it's going to be on racism, because that's what the media is going to want it to be about. And the difference, though, between the Trump as a reality star and Oprah as a reality star, Oprah just gave away free stuff on her show.

PERINO: Yes. A car.

WATTERS: Trump made people compete to get a job on his show. So there's a little bit of a difference.

PERINO: Juan, is this all because there's -- there's a vacuum? There's no clear leader, and so the Democrats are just trying to feel their way?

WILLIAMS: Yes, they are trying to feel their way. And I think there was such an amazing response to Oprah's speech on Sunday night at the Golden Globes that they say, "Oh, my gosh. She has name recognition. She has money." I mean, she has billions. And guess what? People around the country, if we want to talk about women, love Oprah Winfrey. So on all those scores, she would be a big plus.

And even Donald Trump said Oprah Winfrey would be his No. 1 choice for a vice-presidential candidate, this is going way back.

Now, my sense is, you know what? You asked a great question, Dana. People normally go somebody exactly opposite the person in office. If you think of Obama as stable and a genius, they went to Trump. Right? You know what I mean?

WATTERS: Well...

WILLIAMS: And I think that if they're looking after Trump, the question is are Democrats simply trying to fight the last war by picking out someone with great celebrity and great charisma. And I think that's right.
Because to me, we still, as an American people, want someone who has policy experience, political experience...


WILLIAMS: ... who can make us feel safe in the world.

PERINO: Well, talk about polar opposites. Roseanne Barr is coming back to TV to reprise her namesake role, and just broke some news about her iconic character. She's a Trump supporter. That's next.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She can't control me.

ROSEANNE BARR, COMEDIAN: Oh, yes, I can. I am your mother, and I will control you till the day you die.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I wasn't talking to you.

BARR: Oh, yes you were. She was talking to me, wasn't she, Dan?

JOHN GOODMAN, ACTOR: You talking to me?


WATTERS: It's been more than 20 years since "Roseanne" went off the air, one of the top sitcoms of the '80's and '90s. But the Connors are coming back soon for a reboot in March, and we're getting word about one of the story lines this season. This family will be divided, like many others in America right now, over politics.

Roseanne Barr just broke the news that her iconic character voted for President Trump. She says, quote, "It was working-class people who elected Trump, so I felt like it was very real and something that needed to be discussed, and especially about polarization in the family and people actually hating other people for the way they voted, which I feel is not American."

Barr herself says she supports the president, but she may not agree with everything he says.

Greg, did you even watch the show?

GUTFELD: No, but I follow her on Twitter, so this is no surprise. She is
-- she is not afraid to voice support for the president, among kind of a comedic world that does not -- does not share her beliefs. So she is truly a radical in the sense that, you know, when people hear the word "radical,"
they think it's uniformly left wing, but a true radical is somebody who zigs when you think they're going to zag. But there's always some kind of internal logic to the things that she does. And there is an internal logic to the decisions that she makes.

But she's -- but if you take two data points in her life, you cannot predict a third. Because she's that much of a radical or a rebel. The current crop of comedians, she's an icon. It must drive her crazy, because she's not drinking the comedic Kool-Aid that they Jones for, or Jim Jones for. And that makes her the true risk-taker, I think, in comedy. Her and Dave Chappelle.

WATTERS: Do you think the show is a risk, by making it so politicized in this environment?

PERINO: No, I think it's a very smart business move on behalf of the network.

WATTERS: OK, so you think people are going to tune in, Juan? Are you going to be tuning in or not?

WILLIAMS: I didn't tune in the first time. But I mean, it's interesting to me, because I think she's onto something when she says, you know, she's going to portray a working-class white woman who's a Trump supporter. And I'd be interesting to see how she does that, if she can do it sincerely.

I mean, the fact is, as she pointed out, right-wing women tried to boycott the show way back, because they said, oh, to have an opinionated woman in that role coming from the left, they didn't like it. Well, now we'll see how they like it.

WATTERS: I think it's going to do well, Kimberly.

GUILFOYLE: I think it is. I think it's refreshing. You know, she's always been a person of candor. And she wants the show, she says, to be a reflection of her life and of reality. And it's very interesting, because one of her husbands, Tom Arnold, is a big Trump supporter, too. So...


GUILFOYLE: Yes. Correct.

GUTFELD: I did not know that.

WATTERS: Well, you know what she needs? She needs a Trump tweet endorsing the show. And I think that would be helpful.

GUILFOYLE: Can you imagine?

PERINO: It's good for business.

WATTERS: There you go. All right. Another college professor creates another race row on campus. Wait until you hear this one. Up next.


GUTFELD: Evil. Anyway, a math professor at Brooklyn College claims that merit-based education, meaning rewards linked to hard work and talent, is a tool of evil whiteness.

In an article, Laurie Rubel says colorblindness also holds back minorities, because it doesn't admit that racial strife still exists. According to Campus Reform, the teacher recommends injecting social justice issues into actual math lessons.

So I came up with an example: See, Sally is carrying six ski masks to an Antifa rally. She encounters four evil white males who steal two of them. How many ski masks does she have left? Answer: You're racist.

But even social justice might not be enough here. Enlightened teachers may still think effort leads to reward, which again, is very evil. Anyway, such conclusions turn a real problem into a bigger one. To deem achievement-based reward is a racist suggests that certain students can't handle actual effort and that becomes part of their identity: the kid who can't do what other kids can.

I don't know. I don't think colorblindness or merit-based reward holds back students. It's teachers who seek to reduce education to mere identity politic algebra. This is no help for students once they hit the real world, where results matter, especially if you're looking for a raise.

Facts have no feelings and the more you focus on identity, the less you focus on other things that really matter more. That math is so simple even I can do it and I majored in sleep.

Dana, meritocracy is racist.

PERINO: Who knew?


GUILFOYLE: We know now.

PERINO: Tools like math.

GUTFELD: Math is math.

PERINO: And I -- I kind of -- if changing the word problems helps the kid figure out the answer to the fact problem, like, what the fact is, I don't have a problem with that.

GUTFELD: Really? Hmm.

Jesse, thoughts?

WATTERS: My thought is the opposite of meritocracy is racist. How does she grade her papers? Does she say, "Oh, the Asian kid, I'm going to give him this grade, but the black kid, it's going to be another grade, but the Latino kid..." You're not allowed to do that. I think that's almost -- I don't know if it's illegal, but it's totally racist.

And in sports, meritocracy works in sports. Look at the NBA, it's mostly black. It's because the blacks are the best players. They're just the best scorers; they're the best defenders. Or business. People in Wall Street, they don't care what color you are as long as you make money for them. They'll hire anybody.

WILLIAMS: Not true.

GUTFELD: Except for short people.

WATTERS: Not true?

WILLIAMS: Not true.

GUTFELD: Short people are often discriminated against, Juan.


GUTFELD: In the NBA. Studies show that tall people often get higher salaries and get -- get jobs faster than short people. I should be...

WATTERS: Well, then I need a raise.

GUILFOYLE: How high can we go?

WILLIAMS: I think the -- all the presidents are very tall white man except for Obama, and he's a tall black guy.

WATTERS: Wait, Oprah's next, Juan.

WILLIAMS: Oprah's going to break the mold. That's true. But I think...

PERINO: That wasn't until television.

WILLIAMS: I think your concept of meritocracy differs from mine. Because I think what the suggestion is is that people aren't trying hard enough or don't have the ability to succeed and, of course, merit in our country, especially in education real, you know, comes, ACTs, SATs. Initially, it was to provide an additional screen to keep newcomers out of the elites in this society. But I will say this.

GUTFELD: That was what the SAT was for?

WILLIAMS: Initially, yes. But here's the thing. I think that...

GUTFELD: I've never heard that.

WILLIAMS: ... the impact -- you know, the impact of this is so -- it's enough to make you crazy. Because you hear from black kids, "Oh, it's acting white" if you are a very aggressive...


WILLIAMS: ... diligent student.


WILLIAMS: And it makes me nuts.


WILLIAMS: But at the same time, then, you don't want people making the assumption that, well, this kid is having trouble; and maybe the kid is having some difficulties at home...


WILLIAMS: ... or school, or whatever, and can't do it. You want both sides to, I think, repeat what President Bush said, which is that would be the bigotry of low expectations and that we shouldn't leave any children behind.

GUTFELD: What -- what say you, Kimberly? You have a child.

GUILFOYLE: I do, and he's actually quite good at math. I find math hard.
Maybe that's why I don't do word problems well. Like, math is just hard.

I was outstanding all the way up to algebra. That was fabulous.

GUTFELD: Then it fell apart?

GUILFOYLE: Yes. Decent, and then forget the rest of it.

WILLIAMS: Women, they oftentimes discriminate against women in math.

GUILFOYLE: Well, it's fine. It worked out fantastically. I'm not going to complain about it. But honest to God, sometimes you're better at certain things than others.

But I hear what Dana's saying. You want to, like, make it so that people can understand. The whole point is to learn and to make it -- put it in a way that is easy to understand and maybe people are dyslexic or have learning differences and the word problems are harder that way. I totally get it, I mean, but I'm not going to go back and retake the SATs. Just saying.

PERINO: No way.

WATTERS: But you want to have uniform standards for everybody, or else you can't judge.


GUILFOYLE: You know who's discriminated the most? Let's be honest.
Plain. Plain children. Go ahead.

GUILFOYLE: My math -- my math on the Trump support. So my math was bad on Tom Arnold. Maybe just a fan of mine. But not of President Trump. I'm getting confused. Tim Allen who's not married to Roseanne Barr but is a Republican.

GUTFELD: Sit-com dads all kind of blend together.

GUILFOYLE: That what it is?

GUTFELD: Yes, that is. It's like, I get very confused on who...


GUILFOYLE: Oh, my God. Remember that, "Married With Children?"

WATTERS: My favorite show.

GUTFELD: Somehow, I'm not surprised.

GUILFOYLE: I wonder why.

WATTERS: It was ahead of its time.

GUILFOYLE: Because it was the beginning of "Watters' World."

WATTERS: That was Trump before Trump.

GUTFELD: It was the opposite of uplifting. But it was funny.

All right. "One More Thing" is up next.


GUILFOYLE: All right. It's time now for "One More Thing." Mr. Jesse.

WATTERS: We have been searching long and far for a dog for Greg Gutfeld.


WATTERS: And I think we found one.

GUILFOYLE: Oh, my goodness.




WATTERS: It tells you to put the wine down. When you try to take a sip of wine, it takes its paw and says, "You've had enough." There you go, Greg.
You've got to get yourself a dog like that.

GUTFELD: He's not -- he's no longer welcome.

WATTERS: You've had enough.

PERINO: He's going to be back at the pound.

GUILFOYLE: You know how funny that would be?

GUTFELD: Yes, if you -- if you set a dog -- gave me a dog and had trained it beforehand to keep me from doing all kinds of things.

GUILFOYLE: Can you imagine? You'd probably train it to do really weird stuff.

OK, Dana, what do you think?

PERINO: OK. About that? No.

All right. So the Thai prime minister -- his name is Prayut Chan-o-cha -- he may dislike the press more than President Trump or any world leader.
The prime minister today was doing a press conference, and he left a cardboard cutout of himself to deal with reporters in Bangkok. And he basically said, "If you want to ask questions, you can ask this guy."

But a lot of the reporters, they took it as a joke, and they went and they took selfies with it and everything like that.

This happened on the day when the Committee to Protect Journalists announced their Pressed Oppressors Award as a response to -- guess what? -- Trump's Fake News Awards. President Trump was named the winner of its Overall Achievement in Undermining Global Press Freedom.


PERINO: He was also named the runner-up in the Most Thin-Skinned category, losing the top sport to Turkish President Erdogan. And yet, this is what happened today.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you, sir.

TRUMP: I hope we gave you enough material. This should cover you for about two weeks.


PERINO: He always seems to get the last word.

GUILFOYLE: I know, isn't it? He's good at that. He's good at that.

Well, today's a very special day, having worked for many years as a prosecutor in Los Angeles and San Francisco D.A.'s Office. I worked hand- in-hand with some of the finest men and women in law enforcement. And today, in fact, is National Law Enforcement Appreciation Day. And it's a day where we honor and appreciate the brave people who put their uniforms on every day to protect and serve and keep our communities and our children safe and the schools and the areas around them.

And there are several ways, we have some suggestions for you all, in case you want to show some appreciation. You can wear blue clothing, Jesse, like that tie.

WATTERS: Nailed it.

GUILFOYLE: Send a card of support to your local police department.
Participate in Project Blue Light, which is proudly displaying your blue light in support of law enforcement. So those are just a few ways. Or you can do what I do. You can -- you know, they seem to like a hug and kiss here and there.

GUTFELD: Their wives don't, though.

WATTERS: Can I try that?

GUILFOYLE: The men and the women. Hug them. You hug them. That's what I used to do all the time at New Year's, Jesse.

WATTERS: I saw that. So did everybody.

GUILFOYLE: OK, all right. That was part of a segment, by the way.

WATTERS: Right. That was planned.

GUILFOYLE: With the members of law enforcement.

All right. What have you got for us?

WILLIAMS: Just before Christmas there was a very touching story out of Dallas that I wanted to mention. Bill Earl Dade Middle School decided to have a father-son event. It was going to be the first of its kind in the school, and the school is predominantly made up of low-income and minority students.

But they ran into a hurdle. They were concerned that many of the young men did not have father figures in their lives to bring to the event. So they put out a call to Dallas area men to stand in for the missing dads. They expected, you know, a dozen of people or so to respond. Six hundred men showed up.


WILLIAMS: And here are photos of this amazing event. You can see them talking with the young men but also touching things like "Here's how you tie a tie, son," you know? And pledging that they will be mentors to these young men.

PERINO: Great.

WILLIAMS: So just -- my heart goes out to those men in Dallas. So needed, so necessary, so wonderful.

PERINO: That was great.

GUILFOYLE: Very nice. Well done.

GUTFELD: All right. Now for something not nice, me. I have an article out on backslash opinion. We still have to say things like that. Backslash. And it's called "How to Go to College Again." And what it's about, it's about how you don't need to enroll in any school. Just go on the web and listen to podcasts, because podcasts tell you more in the week then you can learn in the year.

I talk about my favorite podcasts, so check that out. And I have a podcast tomorrow.

PERINO: Thanks for the compliment.


PERINO: "I'll Tell You What."


GUILFOYLE: About Dana's podcast.

GUTFELD: I'm not done yet.

GUILFOYLE: What about Bill Hemmer's?


GRAPHIC: Greg's How Do You Weigh Penguin News! With 64 Percent More Penguin.


GUTFELD: "Greg's How Do You Weigh a Penguin News! Featuring 64 Percent More Penguin."




GUTFELD: A lot of people asked me, how do you weigh a penguin? You entice it with a fish to get it on the scale. See, this is what you do. And that's how you do it.

GUILFOYLE: You entice it?

GUTFELD: You entice it with fish.

WATTERS: How much does it weigh?

GUILFOYLE: Penguin entrapment.

GUTFELD: There you go. Penguins are weighed for a reason, because they're very self-conscious about their weight. Very self-conscious about their weight.

GUILFOYLE: Is that the scale you use?

GUTFELD: Yes, it is.

PERINO: You have to entice him with a piece of bacon.

GUTFELD: Exactly.

PERINO: Or red wine.

GUTFELD: That's how I get them into bed.


GUTFELD: I like to sleep with a penguin. So what? They're cuddly.

WILLIAMS: Smelly, smelly.

GUILFOYLE: Set your DVRs. Never miss an episode of "The Five." And help us, Bret Baier. Over to you.

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