TRANSCRIPT

Manhunt for Facebook murder suspect extends nationwide

Reaction and analysis on 'The Five'

 

This is a rush transcript from "The Five," April 17, 2017. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

KIMBERLY GUILFOYLE, CO-HOST: Hello everyone, I'm Kimberly Guilfoyle along with Bob Beckel, Eric Bolling, Dana Perino, and Jesse Watters. It's 5 o'clock in New York City and this is "The Five."

A massive manhunt remains underway for a cold-blooded killer who posted his heinous crime on Facebook. Cleveland police are asking for the public's help to catch the 37-year-old suspect. A $50,000 reward for information that leads to the capture of Steve Stephens.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CALVIN WILLIAMS, CLEVELAND POLICE CHIEF: We are still employing Steve to turn himself in. Definitely to contact a relative or friend because there are a lot of folks out there that want to talk to him. I want to get this resolved peacefully and this is what we would consider a national search for Steve. So, we are not going to leave any stone unturned.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUILFOYLE: The 37-year-old is accused of randomly murdering a 74-year-old grandfather, walking home from an Easter meal yesterday, recording it all and posting it online. Reporter Matt, joins us now in Cleveland. So Matt, what else can you tell us about this manhunt that's currently underway?

MATT FINN, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Well Kimberly, tonight police are stressing that this man is armed and considered extremely dangerous. They say at this hour, they believe that Stephens is still driving around in that white Ford Fusion, a 2016 model which is a full-sized white sedan. They say they have no reason to believe he ditched it or pick up a new car. So they are urging the public to keep their eye out for that white car.

Stephens is described as 6 feet tall, 37-years-old and he has a full beard in the videos and the pictures that we have of him. Police say they did talk to him on his cell phone after the initial event yesterday but he obviously did not turn himself in. We are now 24 hours past the initial incident yesterday so every hour becoming much more crucial. Authorities say they have talked to friends and family who are cooperating. The FBI tells us if you are facilitating this man or if you know where he is, to turn him in. Kimberly.

GUILFOYLE: Alright, Matt, we're going to take it around the table. There are some questions for you, Bob.

BOB BECKEL, CO-HOST: Yes, Matt, when they picked up a ping off his cell phone in Pennsylvania, outside of the Erie, that means he had his cell phone on as he's driving away from Cleveland, I assume. Does that mean they now don't have a ping and he's turned his phone off or they're still using that as a tracking device?

FINN: Well, two things Bob. They say they talked to him on his cell phone yesterday so they might have been tracking him at that point. There were reports all day long that his cell phone pinged near Erie, Pennsylvania. We talked to Erie police and the FBI and they say they would not comment on that ping near Pennsylvania. There were a lot of reports he was spotted in Philadelphia, but those have been shot down as a false alarm tonight, Bob.

GUILFOYLE: Eric.

ERIC BOLLING, CO-HOST: Hey Matt, so there were reports of, I believe he said he claimed to have killed maybe 12 or 13 others and there are also reports of even more. Have the police confirmed any other deaths attributed to this guy yet?

FINN: Eric, tonight they are only confirming this one homicide, that 74- year-old man. They say that he claimed 13 other people but so far no other deaths have turned up, Eric.

GUILFOYLE: Alright, Dana.

DANA PERINO, CO-HOST: Matt, there were reports that he apparently had a breakup with his girlfriend or some sort of argument or something that prompted him to do this, and that she put out a statement today. What did she say?

FINN: Yes, you know, Dana, there are a few Facebook videos in which we've seen him talking, including leading up to that rampage yesterday. He said an issue with the love of his life sparked him and caused him to snap and he goes on to say that he had a year's long relationship with his girlfriend. They planned on getting married but the relationship fell apart.

He started gambling. He said he became desperate and angry and that caused him to go on this on unexplainable rampage yesterday. The girlfriend released a statement via text message to a news outlet earlier today in which she said that Stephens is a kind man and knows this is a very difficult time for her. Dana.

GUILFOYLE: Jesse.

JESSE WATTERS, CO-HOST: Matt, describe the size of the manhunt for us right now. Are federal marshals involved? I know it's going across four states. What kind of hardware are they using to track this guy and what kind of things are they doing technologically besides the ping? They can leverage obviously maybe some facial recognition stuff. What do they have on this guy?

FINN: Well we understand that there are hundreds of state, local, and federal agents out right now. Initially, police were urging people to keep their eye out here in Cleveland and in states like Pennsylvania and New York. But tonight, they are now saying this is a nationwide manhunt. We asked directly what type of technology they might be using and they said quite frankly we are not going to comment on that because Stephens might be watching and we don't want to tip him off. Jesse.

GUILFOYLE: OK, Bolling has another question.

BOLLING: Yes, Matt, very quickly. Facebook -- this is very big for Facebook. Now I understand this wasn't actually Facebook live. They thought it was at first but it ended up being uploaded to Facebook. But there's a lot of heat being directed towards Facebook for some of the murder, the rapes and the suicides that are happening on Facebook live. Zuckerberg pushed back a little bit. Do you have a very latest on where Facebook is as a company on this one?

FINN: Well, you know, initially it was believed that he was streaming the murder live. We later learned that he posted the video of the murder. Facebook released a comment saying they are cooperating but that the murder itself was not live. Eric.

GUILFOYLE: OK, and this is a statement I guess that we have. Matt, we'll ask you to standby for a moment. "This is a horrific crime and we do not allow this kind of content on Facebook. We work hard to keep a safe environment on Facebook and are in touch with law enforcement in emergencies when there are direct threats to physical safety." And Bob, you had another question.

BECKEL: I really -- I find it a little unusual that this guy's job was behavioral science community -- it's not funny, but I mean. He was working with disadvantaged youth and people who had troubles, mental problems. How in the world did someone like that get a job like that? Are you creative? OK, let me ask you, Eric. How do you get a job like that?

BOLLING: I don't know. He's clearly unstable. He needs a lot of help. I don't think you can say anything, one thing had to do with the other but I will tell you this Facebook issue is massive. Facebook has been pushing Facebook live. Extraordinarily successful. It's the growth of the company, they're looking at it. But how do you manage this?

There is almost -- you know, they'll pull down content that's uploaded that's offensive or bad or murderous or dangerous but when it's going live, there's almost no opportunity for them to cut it off or shot it down. This is a very big question for Facebook.

PERINO: Certainly. I spoke to somebody there today who said that, you know, the first -- at fires when it was reported that was on Facebook live and they checked that. That wasn't the actual case. He wasn't streaming it as Matt was just saying.

And after they got word that it was uploaded, it took them just 23 minutes to get it down. But in those 23 minutes, it was able to be cached in all sorts of different places so that content was already up there and it's impossible to get now.

BOLLING: But he had also been talking on Facebook live saying I'm going to kill somebody so, people are following him, waiting to see if he did it.

GUILFOYLE: The people got that were calling --

PERINO: They can call --

GUIILFOYLE: -- and 911 and say somebody is talking about, you know, going to commit a homicide. He said he's committed other homicides. He's not going to stop, you know, killing I guess until he's caught. It's very disturbing.

PERINO: Can I ask you a question Kimberly?

GUILFIYLE: Sure.

PERINO: About, as a prosecutor, because I don't know how anybody stops this, right, because Facebook live or any other live applications like on twitter or whatever it might be, people love it and they're going to continue to do it. It's not going to be taken away. They're not going to take back that technology.

GUILFOYLE: You mean that functionality, yes.

PERINO: But could you as a prosecutor, utilize something like, if you commit aggravated murder, you could get life plus X or Y if you live stream it on Facebook or you do something on social media. Would that be still helpful?

GUILFOYLE: Really good question because of the prevalence that we're seeing and it's true. You look at the number of stories that we've reported on recently where we've seen bullying, torturing, rapes, all kinds of horrific crimes committed. They could then try to petition to put a new law on the books that would operate as a special allegation, sentencing enhancement that would add on time which is similar to, say narcotics, that you would see the certain amount of drugs or a weapons charge enhancement that adds time on and you could like fax (ph) that consecutively depending on the number of --

PERINO: Does that work to help deter?

GUILFOYLE: To be honest with you, I think that it would. I'm really big into, you know, deterrence in terms of crime to say what can we do to discourage people from committing these types of crimes. And especially, can you imagine for the family members, survivors, or even victims to try to get past something like this when they have to live it over and over again. And like you said, Eric, it's captured, right.

And Dana, online and then people are putting it in different venues, posting it. Then it's up on YouTube. It's on people's pages. It's very painful for the family who have to see this about their loved one, about this grandfather and then there's a girlfriend.

BECKEL: I want to --

WATTERS: Facebook has to do some deterrence too, I mean they can't create an algorithm that can identify vile activity and immediately suppress it. I don't know if that's possible. So they say they have to hire these minions that are screening millions and millions of videos throughout the day, and I don't think there is manpower as you say they have to do some hiring but there is a certain point --

GUILFOYLE: And someone will sue and go to the ACLU and say it's censorship --

WATTERS: We didn't do enough. So we have seen a lot of these other tech platforms like a twitter or a Facebook or YouTube not do enough to stop, you know, ISIS activity. Not do enough to suppress child pornography, and that stuff is able to slip through the cracks. So, I don't know if Facebook is doing enough but obviously they have a huge P.R. nightmare on their hands.

BECKEL: And I think there is a possibility that this is -- because so much of this was distributed by or viewed by 1.8 million people or something, that this might be inadmissible in court? This tape?

GUILFOYLE: Wait, no way.

WATTERS: No way.

BECKEL: Is it possible to be inadmissible.

(CROSSTALK)

GUILFOYLE: OK, this is where you're trying to get at. He is talking about more -- it would never be inadmissible because it's a recording and they would authenticate it and get it from Facebook and sort of like evidentiary stuff so you would go through to be able to introduce it into court because it's capturing the crime, much like videotapes in banks if there's a robbery or someone has a home surveillance or it's on the street.

What you're talking about is, OK, this person wouldn't be able to get a fair trial because it's been viewed so many times, well, because it's across the internet, usually a change of venue with really area geographically specific, like when I try to get to San Francisco, it got moved down to Los Angeles because it's too high profile with this so, listen, this was able to be seen all over the world so therefore no justification to move it and no justification to not allow it in.

BECKEL: You know, thank you for clarifying me on that because I'm so stupid when it comes to this stuff but that was the idea. Is there --

GUILFOYLE: You're getting to a good point.

BECKEL: Thank you very much. But it's true, I mean, this stuff get seen all over the place and can you really find yourself a reasonable jury that's going to --

BOLLING: No, it's just --

GUILFOYLE: Like O.J. Simpson when everyone watched the chase.

BOLLING: It's like cameras that they pick up a robbery effect (ph) or whatever. That stuff all gets into court.

GUILFOYLE: You carry it in jury selection by asking the questions --

BOLLING: -- to be using this venue. I mean this is very, very scary. You are right, Dana, you can't take it away because someone else will just replace it with their brand of live streaming but Facebook, you know, being the size that they are, they have some sort of responsibility to be figuring -- like, so if they see a massive rush --

PERINO: Wouldn't you say the same then --

WATTERS: Create a program --

BOLLING: -- just to say, hey, do you look into what is actually happening. It's not about the idea to try --

GUILFOYLE: Dana, you were invited to Facebook so there is --

PERINO: Well, yes, for something different but it's also an algorithm issue at the time. They were talking about in terms of how you -- there was the accusation that they were suppressing conservative news. But to that point, Eric, then would you think that Apple and Google should comply with the federal government and its requests for information when they're trying to track down terrorists because they have a responsibility to do that?

BOLLING: No, no. I think the privacy issue is constitutional and should stay intact with regards to that situation where there is the San Bernardino phone that the feds wanted out that's on lock. I think that was the right decision, that's just me.

My point is when you see a massive rush of viewership into a Facebook live, into a live program, upload going on, maybe have some ways, an algorithm, a red flag and have someone at Facebook say, what is actually going on that's causing so much activity? If it's illegal or it looks like it's going to be illegal, shut it down.

GUILFOYLE: Alright, I got to shut this down because next "Five," new threats from North Korea, new responses from President Trump. Stay tuned.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PERINO: This weekend, North Korea paraded around its missiles in an attempt to show its military might but failed miserably when it tried to test fire one and it blew up almost immediately. Today, Vice President Mike Pence warned Kim Jong-Un not to test President Trump during a visit to the DMZ, the border between North and South Korea.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE PENCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: North Korea would do well not to test his resolve or the strength of the armed forces of the United States in this region. We will defeat any attack, and we will meet any use of conventional or nuclear weapons with an overwhelming and effective response. The era of strategic patience is over.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PERINO: Would we consider taking military action to confront the threat? Ainsley Earhardt asked the president that this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AINSLEY EARHARDT, FOX & FRIENDS SHOW HOST: You have a navy fleet that is sent into the Sea of Japan right now. Have you ruled out a military strike.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNTED STATES: I don't want to telegraph what I'm doing or what I'm thinking. I'm not like other administrations where they say we're going to do this in four weeks and that. It doesn't work that way. We'll see what happens. I hope things work out well. I hope there's going to be peace but, you know, they've been talking with this gentleman for a long time. You read Clinton's book, he said, we made such a great peace deal and it was a joke. You look at different things over the years with President Obama. Everyone has been outplayed. They've all been outplayed by this gentleman.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PERINO: Alright, so Kimberly, a strategic shift for containment, do you think it's going to work this time?

GUILFOYLE: Yes, and I think that, you know, sending the vice president there and issuing that strong message and saying no more strategic patience, what a great phrase. I mean it just really -- it lays it out there but not being, you know, boatful or overwhelming. It's like, OK. Enough is enough.

We need to do something about it. We can't keep pushing this problem and that geopolitical arena down the road because it's not going to get any better. It's actually just gotten worse over the years and he's been further emboldened because nobody has put him in check.

Now we have a really great moment in time with his strategic alliance with China and that's a good relationship and they seem to be wholeheartedly interested in working with us to try to stabilize that region. I mean, it's a very important thing for us.

I think that was one of the most important things that President Obama stressed to President Trump when he was coming in. This is one of the biggest problems you're going to have to deal with, this North Korea.

PERINO: Bob, do you see this as tough and smart diplomacy?

BECKEL: No, I don't.

PERINO: Why?

BECKEL: Well, look, I mean it sounds nice. It's a good slogan. You could do a bumper sticker of it. But here's the reality of it.

PERINO: OK.

BECKEL: What happens? What do you do? Let's assume for a moment the guy decides to launch a solid fuel, it was there, they have a solid fuel missile which can go intercontinental and what are we going to do? We're going to go in and bomb their nuclear facilities? There are 28 of them and most of them underground.

Secondly, the Chinese, let's not overstate this relationship between the United States and China. China has been asking the United States to get the missile defense system out of South Korea now for all seven or eight years and we refused to do it for obvious reasons.

PERINO: Right.

BECKEL: I would guess if the Chinese are going to help, part of the deal would be to get those out of there. The South Koreans would go crazy because a conventional warfare between the two of them is not a fair fight. You know it brings up so many more people --

PERINO: But I don't think we'd ever agree to that. It seems to me that we have the upper hand now.

BOLLING: -- the ability to bargain for.

GUILFOYLE: That's not the issue. China cares about trade.

BECKEL: Wait, wait. First of all, you're not ready to bargain. It does not exist. That's the problem.

BOLLING: You just made a comment that it's completely unconfirmed at this point, You just said they have solid fuel rockets -- missiles that could reach the United States. That's absolutely speculative on everyone's part. That's not confirmed right now.

Let's call this what this is. This is Trump's second win in two weeks. He did well when he dropped 59 Tomahawk's in Syria and this was amazing because Kim Jong-Un was saber rattling, he's threatening. He shoots off a rocket that explodes. Trump has said stand down, North Korea, and now they have to stand down.

BECKEL: How will they have to stand down?

BOLLING: Yes, they came up --

BECKELD: Based on that?

BOLLING: Based on they can't even get a rocket off the launch pad, yes.

(CROSSTALK)

BOLLING: Here's the other part. They've said now they're going to continue to test. Good luck. But Bo, I will tell you before they ever launch anything with a nuclear warhead in it, that place would be leveled. It would be a parking lot. It would be a desert. If they load a nuclear warhead into a missile --

GUILFOYLE: Right, and this is why we have moved our carriers into that region, Bob.

BECKEL: -- let's assume that -- let's just assume that he shoots a missile next week. What are we going to do?

BOLLING: Is it nuclear? It's a test.

BECKEL: No, no, just a test.

BOLLING: They already said they weren't going to bomb North Korea for a test.

BECKEL: What's Trump going to do?

GUILFOYLE: Did you read between the lines this weekend in doing your preparation for today?

BECKEL: What's that?

GUILFOYLE: Watch all the programming --

BECKEL: I know a lot more about that or I would move people to --

PERINO: Can we let Jesse have a chance to talk here? You have the floor Jesse.

WATTERS: You know why we're in this mess to begin with, is 1994, your guy Bill Clinton gave them billions and billions of dollars for them to promise not to do anything and they used that money to build these missiles and to work on their nuclear program. Now we have no good options.

BECKEL: You're talking about conjecture, man. That's conjecture.

WATTERS: No, OK. Bob, its true and that's how they could afford it.

BECKEL: It's true --

WATTERS: Second of all, Bob -- read the history books Bob. That was your past (ph).

BECKEL: I have read the history.

WATTERS: No, no, no. What I'm worried about too is Obama did the same thing. He gave the Iranians billions and billions of dollars to promise not to (INAUDIBLE) and I bet in 10 years, were going to be dealing with the same thing. Now, strategic patience, that was what the previous administration's policy was.

That was like John Kerry's idea of saying let's do nothing. Now president Trump has come in and he's working with the Chinese to make sure they are not a threat. And so far, they have met a little resistance and it's going a lot better than it has up to the last week.

BECKEL: Do you really think the Chinese are going to join up with the United States against North Korea?

WATTERS: They don't want a war on their north side (ph) either, Bob.

GUILFOYLE: They just did. They just did.

WATTERS: It's going to be a humanitarian crisis.

GUILFOYLE: They are working cooperatively with the United States. They want a great relationship for us with trade. Bob --

BOLLING: Bob, they could easily push back on statements. Basically it took a week to get the USS Vinson in place, right. The Chinese didn't say a word. Go ahead. Put the Vinson on --

WATTERS: China has already pushed their coal shipments back. They're sending the ships back because they don't want anymore coals.

BECKEL: You got that right.

BOLLING: You may not want to admit this but one of the strongest foreign policy wins for Donald Trump was when Xi was at Mar-a-Lago, Donald Trump, and he launched the Syrian missiles and Xi didn't push back. And now China is playing ball with the Trump administration against a crazy dictator in North Korea.

BECKEL: Is this the same China Trump accused of being a manipulator of currency?

BOLLING: This is major foreign policy win for Donald Trump. Here's what else that happened. It also allowed Donald Trump to push back a little bit harder on Vladimir Putin.

BECKEL: He hasn't pushed back on -- and by the way, he called them a currency manipulator, did he during the campaign? You know, when he stopped calling them that?

BOLLING: Because he made a deal.

(CROSSTALK)

PERINO: Alright, catch more of Ainsley Earhardt's interview with President Trump tomorrow on "Fox & Friends" at 6:00 a.m. eastern tomorrow. Up next, thousands of protesters took to the streets this weekend to demand the president release his tax return. Mr. Trump fired a message right back at them. Next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BOLLING: On Saturday, thousands of liberals who still can't come to terms with President Trump's win, took to the streets across America to demand he release his tax returns.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SARAH SILVERMAN, COMEDIAN: We can't get tired. We can't give up. We have to be relentless. We have to show them how utterly exhausting we can be. Show us your (BLEEP) taxes, you emotional child. You like being a superficial bully? Here's one for you. You are a 3 at best.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLLING: Sarah Silverman throwing one of her epic tantrums. But things got violent at the rally in Berkeley where at least 20 protesters were arrested, but why haven't Democrats denounced the violence? The president's counselors is calling them out.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KELLYANNE CONWAY, COUNSELOR TO PRESIDENT TRUMP: I would love to hear the new DNC chairman Tom Perez, Bernie Sanders, the Democratic senator from Vermont, who is going out on the road starting today, and I would love to hear Hillary Clinton, who lost to Donald Trump handedly, I'd love for them to come forward as leaders of the Democratic Party and tell people to stop.

They have a right to express their first amendment beliefs but at the same time, violence is not going to get us anywhere. And I would love to hear Democratic leaders of the party instead of still talking about the election, move forward and help us negotiate. Help us get some Democratic bills on tax reforms and health care reform and infrastructure.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLLING: President Trump had this response to the protest, "Someone should look into who paid for the small organized rallies yesterday. The election is over." So I would say, hey, Democrats, how about telling the spoiled brats to cut it out. We need to show North Korea, Syria and others we're behind the president full stop. And to Sarah Silverman, Bob only have this idea, if Trump released his tax returns you wouldn't even know how to read them. Bob, you're laughing but I'm going to start with KG.

GUILFOYLE: Yes, because I gave you an assist on that one because I saw that tweet when she went and I was like, oh my god, how did she get away with saying this stuff on twitter? It's inappropriate. And then Rob O'Neill were back hoping to at least you wouldn't even understand, I mean, it was just kind of funny. But anyway, so look, people have a right to protest. I don't have a problem with that as long as they are peaceful, they don't hurt other people. There's a respectful way to do it that is law-abiding. You run afoul of me if you break the law.

So this -- you know, I don't know what they hope to find out. Rachel Maddow tried and what happened? Apparently, he's a rich guy. I mean, where -- where do you go from here, Bob?

BECKEL: Listen, first of all, your assumption is that the people who are doing this are the people who are anti-Trump. There were a bunch of Trump buds out there in that park, too, and they were throwing fists around. And if you read what the -- of course, Berkeley is left leaning newspapers, but nonetheless, most of the people who did the hurting were Trump people. Well, wait a second. Just wait a second.

This is the same guy that across the country campaigned inciting violence, was very happy to see his people beat the hell out of people who were there. And the other thing is, they're all not liberals. And the last thing is, why does this president not have the guts, the courage, or the wisdom to release your taxes? Why? Because you're hiding something.

WATTERS: I just want to say a few things to what Bob just said. I think the fights at the Trump rallies, those were paid protesters sent by the Democrats to pick fights. That's on videotape.

BECKEL: Oh, yes, yes, yes.

WATTERS: Remember your Occupy Wall Street guys? Caused some riots there. Remember the riots that the left did after the election, burning things? Also left-wingers. I don't remember a lot of violence at the Tea Parties...

BECKEL: You remember the guy who got beat up by all the...?

WATTERS: I didn't see a lot of violence in the Tea Parties. And someone (UNINTELLIGIBLE) someone in the Tea Party. And every Republican politician was forced to condemn it. You know why the liberal politicians aren't going to condemn this, because none of the mainstream media reporters are going to say, "Do you condemn this?" Because they're all...

(CROSSTALK)

BOLLING: Should the lead head Democrats leadership get out and...?

PERINO: OK, we are talking about Berkeley. So I don't know. I don't know if it's like -- would we say that President Trump has to comment any time? Should he have to comment on the guy that Bob was talking about that is on video where there's a woman and has her fists out but she's got -- he's got his fist in her face? Should President Trump have to comment and announce that violence?

I think that because most of those protests were peaceful, that Berkeley seems to be, like, this really weird, oddball thing. I don't think that Donald Trump's taxes are worth getting arrested over. That will be on your record forever.

He's kind of brought this situation on himself in terms of the calls for the taxes, because he promised he would put them out, and then he decided not to. And claimed that because he was being audited that he can't. There's some dispute about that. But I think that the Democrats do look a little bit out of touch when on the world stage, over the weekend, there was so much happening. So much humanitarian strife, so many problems. There are reasons to maybe let this one go and let it be fought out in the courts or in the Congress, not on the street.

BECKEL: In the alt right opening here, did you notice exactly -- wait a second. There were 150 rallies. It's a little joke, Eric.

BOLLING: I don't think it's very funny.

BECKEL: Sorry, OK.

BOLLING: The point, the set up was, I put the scenario together. At the end, my comment was isn't this the time to get behind the president full stop, no matter if you're a Democrat, alt-right, far left or Republican?

BECKEL: No.

BOLLING: Why not?

BECKEL: Because his policies stink.

BOLLING: We've got some madman who says he's going to bomb the U.S. We don't know what's going on in the U.S. You're worried about his taxes?

BECKEL: ... saying that yes, we're worried about his tax returns, and you should be worried about it, too, because he's hiding something.

WATTERS: The last time his taxes came out, he paid a higher rate than Bernie.

BECKEL: That was one -- one single return.

WATTERS: You could use it as a lever.

BECKEL: There were 150 other rallies yesterday and not a single...

BOLLING: National security issue do you think? Or what is happening in statute terms?

BECKEL: Collaboration with Russia on a number of things.

PERINO: It's actually probably nothing, which is why.

GUILFOYLE: But now, it's become such an issue that it looks like he's caving. The other side goes psycho over them, then what do you do? Just let them control whatever your decision-making is?

I mean, look, I just think this is not, you know, auspicious timing to do something like this. It's not about the money. When people are suffering, children are being gassed, and a psycho is on the loose in North Korea.

(CROSSTALK)

BOLLING: Let's move on. Ahead, a star of one of my favorite shows, "Homeland," defends his show's disappointing, P.C. decision to make the U.S. government the evil bad guys this season and not Islamic terrorists. Is a six-year investment in "Homeland" down the drain? Dana and I will discuss that one next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's for the court to decide.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Law enforcement has to stop harassing and demonizing an entire community. Since when is engaging in a political debate online a punishable event?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BECKEL: Showtime set "Homeland" has come under fire in the past from the PC crowd for portraying Muslims in a negative light. The season -- the show made a conscious decision to do things differently to avoid any accusations of Islamophobia.

Here's one of the main stars, Mandy Patinkin.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MANDY PATINKIN, ACTOR: Particularly in season six, we've tried to be part of the cure, not part of the problem.

CHUCK TODD, HOST, NBC'S "MEET THE PRESS": A different story line.

PATINKIN: A different story line where we're helping these people. And a story outline that shows, in this case, in this year, in this season that maybe it's -- that it is the white men in government and the military establishment that are the bad guys, not the Muslim community.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BECKEL: Eric, this is one of your favorite shows. What do you think about it? First of all, what do you think he's talking about? He laid it out. They're going to go soft, right?

BOLLING: Well, they did this year. So from season one, I've watched this show every single Sunday night. Here's what happened. For five seasons, it was a cutting edge, great drama all about Middle Eastern Islamophobia versus bad guys in the Middle East. It was really -- it didn't hold back. So there were a lot of, there were a lot of explosions. A lot of CIA intrigue.

For five seasons, this is the sixth season that just ended a week ago. And what ended up happening is they went soft, and we could never figure out why they were going soft. They brought the show back to New York. The main character, Claire Danes, who was -- I'll say it -- a bad-ass CIA operative, became a defender of people accused, who were being treated with Islamophobia. And it turned, and the show got very soft. The ratings also tanked.

But now we know they made a conscious decision at the beginning of this year. Instead of blaming. Mandy Patinkin, I'm going to take him to task. He said they were blaming Muslims. We're not blaming Muslims. We're blaming radical Islamists for the terror. So he said that instead of that, they want to turn it back into what he calls white males, likely CIA operatives, or in the intelligence community. Blaming them instead of what he says, Muslims.

BECKEL: Dana, you're a big fan of the show. What did you think?

PERINO: Well, I had been up until this year, really. I think that they actually had done a very good job of describing or painting what Eric was just talking about, that there was radical extremists that were causing all this strife and heartache and grief and violence all around the world, including in the Muslim world. I think they were doing a very good job about that.

Now we have this shift. The show is, like, unwatchable this season.

And God forbid government investigators be portrayed as the heroes. Because that's like -- do you think people in America want to watch government investigators and our intelligence community being portrayed as racist? Because they're not. I actually think they created more of a problem for themselves.

And further on in the interview, he talked about his work, which I admire, with refugees. He goes off into Greece, and he tries to help a lot of people that are fleeing from Syria. I agree that 99 percent of them are peaceful people. But why not show that and continue to do the good work that they were doing? Now they've just sort of of ruined it for everyone.

BECKEL: You know, Jesse, it seems to me that for five seasons, if you're going to get this kind of reaction, it would've happened during the first five seasons. Why all of a sudden on the sixth? Did it hit a critical mass? Or what?

WATTERS: Maybe because Trump is present. I have no idea. I don't watch the show.

PERINO: There is something to that. They talk about that.

WATTERS: Well, that could be a part of it. I mean, one of the reasons the show's work is because when the bad guy has something to do with reality, whether it's in the '80s, it's the Cold War and the Russians, or back in the day it's the Indians, you want to feel as a viewer that there's some real threat out there, and it's kind of scary and kind of exciting.

But if the bad guy is a Peruvian or some guy from Madagascar, just doesn't hit home. And that's why the Muslim terrorist angle works, but when you soften that, people like Dana and Eric aren't going to watch.

GUILFOYLE: Yes, well, let's just have a conversation with reality here. They are trying to create and put forth a false narrative. The bad guys aren't the CIA guys, the men and women in the military or the people in governments. The bad guys are people like al Qaeda, AQAP, Boko Haram, al- Nusra, ISIS, people trying to establish a caliphate in the name of religion. OK, radical Islamic terrorists.

So that's why it works. Because people actually are paying attention and reading the papers and seeing what's going on in the world. The show mirrored that. But now, instead, they just took a knee and apologized and bowed down to political correctness and try to demonize people they shouldn't be putting down the didn't do anything wrong. That's why it doesn't work. And it's enough already of blaming white men for everything.

BOLLING: Here's the extent -- I'm sorry, Bobby. Here's the extent they did that.

So all of these seasons, Dana's right: they -- they highlighted the radical extremism that actually clouded or hurt the greater Muslim community.

GUILFOYLE: Correct.

BOLLING: This year what they did was they had a terrorist bomb go off in Times Square or on the street in Manhattan. And everyone jumped to the collusion that it had to be a Muslim extremist. And it ended up being the CIA, or one of the operative. That's never even happened.

(CROSSTALK)

BECKEL: That -- you know, this goes back to something I've been saying for years. You probably wouldn't have to worry about a TV show if you're in the Muslim community if your leaders in Muslim countries had the guts to stand up and be counted against ISIS, had the courage to commit -- except for a few exceptions, their military. I'm thinking about Saudi Arabia, for example.

Every time something like this happens, Muslim leaders, the clerics particularly, go underground and say nothing. Until you have the courage to say something, don't talk about a TV show. Go out and talk about what's wrong with a certain segment of your religious, if you want to call it that, community.

Tease. OK, sorry, yes, this gets me wound up. Next, is the Trump administration softening its position on smoking weed in America? New comments from our homeland security secretary on the war on drugs might surprise you. It's ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WATTERS: Last month, Attorney General Jeff Sessions called marijuana only slightly less awful as heroin and indicated the Trump administration might wage a federal crackdown on weed. Yesterday Homeland Security Secretary John Kelly said pot isn't factoring in at all in the administration's war on drugs.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KELLY, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: Marijuana is not a factor in the drug war. Three things. Methamphetamines, almost all produced in Mexico. Heroin, virtually all produced in Mexico and cocaine that comes up from the south. Those three drugs result in the death of, I think, last year, 52 -- in '16 -- '15, I think, 52,000 people, to quote (UNINTELLIGIBLE). It's a massive problem.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WATTERS: So K.G., what do you think? Do you think it's smart policy to deemphasize going after dope and then really focus on the hard-core narcotics instead?

GUILFOYLE: Well, I mean, I think it's complicated, because it's difficult sometimes to separate the two out. I mean, I think he has a keen understanding of exactly the complexities of the problem. When you think about that, and we have big news alerts about things like Zika and Ebola. But we have a crisis here, a health and mental health crisis in this country with addiction to painkillers, prescription pills, opioids of all sorts. And it's really sad because it's taking over; it's crushing, destroying families; it's breaking apart homes.

And part of this is that influx of drugs and guns, you know, narcotics across the borders and really just, like, keeping that movement going. You've got to choke it out. It's got to be cut off.

WATTERS: And people say, you know, choke it out at the ground level, Eric. They say marijuana is a gateway drug. So if you're soft on that and teenage kids get into it and then if you're not going to enforce it, what else you're not going to enforce. Where do you see it?

BOLLING: I would take the other side of that. I'm in favor of legalizing marijuana, not just decriminalizing. Legalizing it, because it's a war that we can't -- we haven't been able to win. We haven't even been able to scale it back. We can't win that war. It's just too massive, too big.

And frankly, my feeling is marijuana isn't even as dangerous as drinking. I mean, I would -- I've said this 100 times. I'd much rather be on the street as someone who is higher than someone who is drunk. Let me just point out...

GUILFOYLE: I beg to differ. Look at the studies showing schizophrenia. Young people using pot and smoking some, the studies that link it to schizophrenia and the onset of it. The brain is still developing. It's too dangerous.

BOLLING: We have spent literally hundreds of billions of dollars fighting this, and it's gotten -- it's not getting any better. I think when you look at the opioid problem, that's where you can focus in. There's a lot of illegal opioids being produced even right here in West Virginia, pill factories. These are the things that are killing people. Fifty thousand plus deaths last year linked to opioids. Concentrate on that. That's something that could actually save some lives, and you could probably put a dent in rather than trying to mass incarcerate people for smoking weed.

WATTERS: And Donald Trump has talked about that, the opioid addiction crisis in this country. And it seems like Sessions is over here saying, "We're going to enforce marijuana very, very strongly."

And then you have Kelly saying, "You know what? We're only going to deal with the gangs and the drugs and the crime that comes across the border from Mexico." Where do you see that breaking down?

PERINO: Well, I think maybe both things could be true. Because I -- the way I took it was that Kelly was talking about the border -- the drugs that are coming across the border. I thought that that's what he has meant. But I feel like I should give the rest of my time to Bob who, I think, feels pretty strongly on this.

BECKEL: Well, it's -- you know, yesterday, I did -- as you know, I'm a recovering alcoholic and addict and have messed with all this stuff, including methamphetamines and heroin.

And for anybody to suggest that, A, marijuana is not, in some way or another, connected to more use of drugs; and it's also the biggest illegal drug in America by far. The Mexicans haven't given up selling that stuff. That's how they get started.

So the transportation is still there. The money is still there.

I did an intervention yesterday with a guy who is 43 years old, and he started off using medical marijuana. That's dangerous in and of itself. I mean, you declare yourself medical marijuana. And you've got pain.

GUILFOYLE: People abuse it, yes.

BECKEL: And then he went right to opioids after that, because they wouldn't give him more medical marijuana. And after that, he went to what all the heroin dealers are doing -- they're going in after the opioid guys, because they're cheaper, and they sell them heroin with fentanyl. And by the way, the guys were wrong. It's not Mexico. It's mostly -- it's mostly from the triangle in Southeast Asia.

WATTERS: Maybe Bob is going to be President Trump's new drug czar.

BECKEL: Damn good idea.

WATTERS: "One More Thing" is up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GUILFOYLE: It's time now for "One More Thing" -- Bob.

BECKEL: You all remember when candidate Trump said this line maybe 10,000 times?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We are going to Washington, D.C., and we are going to drain the swamp.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BECKEL: Well, Mr. President, let's talk about draining your swamp. You know, the -- one of the big lobbyists you talked about, you worried about were the energy industry. And the guy who used to represent a Devon Energy of Oklahoma, which is big, the Talen Energy of Pennsylvania, a coal operating group. You know what? He's now your White House policy advisor on energy. He's putting together the same rules and regulations that affected his clients. Congratulations. Good draining the swamp, Mr. President.

GUILFOYLE: All right. That was charming.

BOLLING: OK, so I got one of the greatest gifts of my entire life. My wife said, "You know what? For Easter weekend, why don't you go out and visit your son?" And the two of us, we had a dad-son weekend.

Take a look. Here's the first picture. We're just kind of hanging out, but we go get a bite to eat right after that. I got him an apartment -- here's an extra picture -- got him an apartment for the summer. He wants to stay out there for the summer. So we spent a great couple of days and just really, really enjoyed it.

And then I took a United flight back. It was oversold. I swear to God it was oversold. And they were asking -- they were buying people off to get off the plane.

GUILFOYLE: How much did they give?

BOLLING: I don't know. It got to 300, I stopped paying attention.

GUILFOYLE: Oh, my God. Dana, go.

PERINO: All right. So I want to say congratulations to Katherine Switzer. She was the first female to ever compete and run in the Boston Marathon in 1967. She had to enter as K.B. Switzer, because women weren't allowed. In fact, a man realized she was a woman during that race and tried to get her out. She continued. She finished it. Now 50 years later, she ran it again today.

GUILFOYLE: Wow.

PERINO: She's 70 years old. She finished in four hours, 44 minutes and 21 seconds. Here she is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KATHERINE SWITZER, FIRST WOMAN TO RUN IN BOSTON MARATHON: Fifty years, who would have ever believed it? You know? I'm so grateful to be back.

It created a vision for me to create opportunities for women in running. And look at the result. We're almost 50/50 here today. Fifty-eight percent of all the runners in the United States are women.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUILFOYLE: Very good, God bless her. She looks great.

OK. So and I wanted to say thank you so much to all the wonderful followers on Twitter. Because what a nice Easter Sunday gift. I hit 1 million followers on Twitter, which is pretty exciting. People are super nice. The fans making little pictures and things like that.

Dana Perino here is crushing in on Twitter. We're on the top five on FOX.

PERINO: All right.

GUILFOYLE: O'Reilly, Hannity, you. Up there. There we go.

WATTERS: We all know it's "Watters' World," but I wanted to find out if it's also my galaxy. So I went down to Orlando, Florida, to a "Star Wars" convention. There I am right there with Jabba the Hutt in a Princess Leia pose. No bikini. And you're going to see that. "Watters' World," Saturday night, 8 p.m. We're going to quiz people.

BOLLING: Where's that one with you at the regalia (ph)?

WATTERS: That was last weekend. Thanks for not watching.

GUILFOYLE: Never miss an episode of "The Five." Set your DVRs. Download our podcast at FoxNews.com. "Special Report" is next.

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