Media double standard in hate crime coverage?

This is a rush transcript from "The Five," January 5, 2017. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

GREG GUTFELD, CO-HOST: Hi, I'm Greg Gutfeld with Kimberly Guilfoyle, Juan Williams, Jesse Watters, and she can belly flop in a shot glass, Dana Perino -- "The Five."

Four ghouls are in jail after posting a Facebook Live video where they tortured a mentally disabled young man, kicking and beating up the tied-up special needs victim, burning him with cigarettes, cutting his scalp. He is in the hospital after being found dazed on the street. On the video, you can hear the shouts of, "F Donald Trump" and "F white people."


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: [bleep] Donald Trump. [bleep] white people, boy.  [bleep] them. [bleep].



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My sister said that's not funny, y'all.



GUTFELD: So that sounds like a hate crime, yet, for some, it is still a debate.


SYMONE SANDERS, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: We cannot go about classifying things of the hate crime. Motive here matter.

If we start going around any time someone says something or does something really egregious, really bad, and sickening in this instance in connection with the president-elect or Donald Trump or even President Obama for that matter, because of their political leanings, that is slippery territory. That is not a hate crime.  Hate crimes are because of a person's racial ethnicity, their religion, their gender, their disability. It is your political leanings because someone doesn't like your political leanings and they do something bad to you. That is not a hate crime.


GUTFELD: Translation: These days a hate crime must always validate assumptions about a bigoted America -- meaning the crime must be purchased perpetrated by angry whites who voted for Trump -- and then of course later, proven false.

But what of this one? Here the fiends actually filmed the proof.  They are not just evil but they're stupid. It is black on white crime, there is no hijab on the victim, so it doesn't fit media narrative.

That is my hate crime law sucks. Everyone ends up obsessing over whether the assault qualifies or not rather than focusing on the crime itself. But evil should unite us in horror, not divide us over classification. And we should really not pay attention to a thug's thoughts and let it define our response. Better that we define ourselves by our own clear-eyed punishment.  Because a violent crime is a hate crime no matter who the victim is.

The last point: What about those who watched this on Facebook who didn't call the cops? What do you make of them? I mean, the only silver lining here is that crimes like these still managed to repulse us. But what if they didn't?

So, Dana, after these things happened, they go over the hate crime classifications. It doesn't qualify, does it not? It is like, why? Why not just focus on the damn crime?

DANA PERINO, CO-HOST: I have always felt that way about the hate crime legislation. I have always been interested in Kimberly's take, we will get that in a second. Because, as a prosecutor, there are reasons you might want to have a hate crime designation. But in this case, I think that the potential for human aggression and depravity is astonishing, and it is moments like this where it doesn't matter to me what color they were.  It was such a horrible, disgusting crime and obviously, all of our hearts go out to the victim and his family. I do think that last night's debate, immediately after the story broke on cable and on Twitter, it just became something like the team sport aspect. All of a sudden now, we have to choose sides about whether this is a hate crime, and that becomes a debate.  I think all of the things that the sound bite you play, all the things they listed as to -- these are reasons it would not be a hate crime, if you're disabled, political leanings. So the distinction gets completely watered down, unless it fits their narrative.

GUTFELD: Kimberly, can I show you -- this is something come up from the presser today in which they talked about the hate crime requirements?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For a hate crime, what specifically are you looking at?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, again, his diminished mental capacity, the fact that they tied him up, the obvious racial quotes that they post live on Facebook. I mean, taking the totality of the circumstances, the state's attorney agreed with us. We sought hate crime charges and they agreed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just to be clear, you mentioned the mental capacity.  With heavy emphasis or the strong point of a hate crime or was it the racial comments?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's half a dozen of one, six of the other.


GUTFELD: So, Kimberly, my point is, with all of these awful things going on, isn't it obvious that it is just hate, why do need the extra.

KIMBERLY GUILFOYLE, CO-HOST: It is important so you properly classify it. It also involves that it has extra sentencing enhancement when you have a hate crime that is charged. In this case, they have a very solid case. There are number of charges they can make, they have charged with aggravated kidnapping and false imprisonment, a number of things depending on the state how they classify and what they call the different violations. These are all felonies. This is a very serious case. If I was a prosecutor I would charge it as a hate crime. It does meet the requisite qualifications in that particular state. They were very specific in their language. You don't even have to rely on the victim's word for it, they have it on tape. You play that to a jury, do you think they are going to be sympathetic to these individuals of pure hate and evil in their hearts? There are a number of ways they can get it, and the officer and the DA is specifying that they can do it because of the racial motivation.  Then they are very clear as white people and then, also Donald Trump and the fact that they picked on somebody who was special-needs and a disabled man, that also qualifies. So this isn't even a question. For those who are saying this, it's because they don't know what they are talking about and haven't prosecuted these cases like I have.

GUTFELD: So it is basically icing on the cake in terms of punishment? I don't think you need to -- I think you should go as severe as possible, but hate crime is great because you can add another.

JESSE WATTERS, GUEST CO-HOST: Yeah. You can add another five years on it. It's funny how this media has the huge appetite to cover hate crimes, but when it is black on white, all of a sudden, they're not hungry anymore. They don't want to touch it. Everybody knew it was a hate crime.  The only people who didn't call it a hate crime in the beginning is because they didn't want to call it a hate crime. Don Lemon said this isn't evil.  I don't know, if this isn't evil, I don't know what is. CNN called it a beating. This looks like torture to me.


WATTERS: And the White House today refused to even weigh in on whether this was a hate crime, because they said it was an active investigation.  How many active investigations has the White House weighed in on? And we know if this was on the other foot here, if these were white Trump supporters doing this to a young black disabled men.

GUILFOYLE: Oh, forget it.

WATTERS: . the president would be weighing in, Sharpton, Jackson, Trump would have to answer for this, white America would have to answer for this.  It is just sad because when you hold different races to different behavioral standards, I believe that is more prejudiced, because that is almost assuming that certain races aren't equal. And that is what I have a problem with.

GUTFELD: What do you make, Juan, of the facts that like -- OK, they found out about this because the neighbor called in, because the criminals have gone down and bashed in the door, people watching on Facebook, I still haven't figured out if anybody who watched it actually called the police.  That kind of creeps me out, right?

JUAN WILLIAMS, CO-HOST: Yeah. I mean, obviously here in New York, I forget the name of the woman who was being attacked, it was many decades ago.


WILLIAMS: And people said no one came to her aid, even though it was evident. I'm not sure people believed that they were watching something.


WILLIAMS: No, no, it was another one, even before that, where somebody in an apartment building was being abused and everybody knew it, everybody said they could hear her scream.

GUTFELD: It is an urban legend now when they found out later that they did do something. But I get your point.

WILLIAMS: Yeah. I'm not sure people watching actually knew it was in fact real as opposed to something that was faked. But to come back and join the earlier conversation with Jesse, I don't even question about the hateful and racist nature of this crime, but where I would object was, there is some distinction to be made, if the shoe was on the other foot, if this was a black person being abused by white people that there would have been an outcry. We have instances where that happens, I don't think there is any immediate shouting. In fact, there was a case where a black kid was taken by some whites and abused by a hanger. I didn't hear about it until today.


WATTERS: Well, they barely covered this on the broadcast news last night.

WILLIAMS: Are you kidding? I heard about this last night.


WATTERS: Most of the wire copy didn't even mention the race of the purpose.



GUILFOYLE: Tucker Carlson had this on at 7:00.


WILLIAMS: It right, I heard about it right away.


WILLIAMS: OK. But I am out of my mind on lots of topics, but as I said to you, in reading about this, I see where this happened to a black kid.


GUILFOYLE: A classmate of one of the suspects, held for a minimum of at least 24 to 48 hours and his scalp was cut open repeatedly. So I think everyone knew this wasn't a joke or staged.

WILLIAMS: I don't know that. People watching, apparently, to your point, Greg, I'm not sure if they understood the horror, that this was real, this was blood.


GUILFOYLE: People commenting on Facebook, this is not funny, this is awful.


WILLIAMS: But, anyway, whole issue is one of, is this legitimate in terms of people saying this is a hate crime. I don't see that this needs to be an argument about the hate crime. Although I remember with some intensity what happened to George W. Bush when he was governor with Texas, and the speller was dragged by some whites behind the truck and the NAACP went after the governor at that time and said that he was not sufficiently upset because it was white people who did it. I thought it was totally illegitimate. It was an argument about hate crime statutes. It wasn't an argument about the horrific nature of the crime.


WILLIAMS: And so, it gets used on both sides. And I think it weakens It's us as an American people because it is not like Dylann Roof doesn't exist going into a black turf.



WILLIAMS: . people responded by saying oh, yeah, it is a reason for more racial, hate.


WATTERS: OK. Are there going to be satellite trucks parked outside this trial in Chicago like there were at Dylann Roof's trial? I doubt it.

WILLIAMS: Oh, you doubt it?

WATTERS: I will make you a bet right now. This story gets much less coverage than Dylann Roof.

WILLIAMS: You know what I think, Jesse? I think in this era, right now, there is so much racial tension and some of them attached to Trump, it is going to get a ton of attention.


GUTFELD: I mean, Dylann Roof killed people. He killed nine people.


GUTFELD: I would keep him in a different -- as heinous as this is, that was.

GUILFOYLE: Right. And to try to tie it to Donald Trump and say this is going to be tied to him because racial things are tied to him. This is outrageous. No, this is a hate crime committed by four eager suspects who actually said they hope to this video would go viral and held him there for an extended period of time.

WILLIAMS: They mentioned Donald Trump's name. That's why I said it.


GUTFELD: I have got to tease Juan for telling me to go. Coming up, intel chiefs grilled on Capitol Hill over Russia's meddling in our elections. It happened today. What they said about the impact, and how it had an impact on the vote and if the cyberattack order came directly from Putin himself.  More on this.  


PERINO: Today, two top intelligence officials testified on the Hill to defend findings that Russia waged cyberattacks to interfere with the 2016 presidential election. National Intelligence director James Clapper and NSA chief Mike Rogers, head of the U.S. Cyber Command say they have never seen a more direct campaign by Russia to tamper with our election and they point to the very top.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you think this was approved at the highest level of government in Russia? Generally speaking, is that right?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Who is the highest level of government?

CLAPPER: Well, the highest as President Putin.


PERINO: Good question. Does the hacking at the DNC and Democratic officials actually change the outcome of the election? Listen here.


SEN. JOHN MCCAIN, R-ARIZ.: Really, what we're talking about, if they succeeded in changing the results of an election, which none of us believe they were, that would have to constitute an attack on the United States of America because of the effects if they had succeeded. Would you agree with that?

CLAPPER: First, we cannot say it -- they did not change any vote tallies or anything of that sort.


CLAPPER: We have no way of gauging the impact that certainly the intelligence community can't gauge the impact it had on the choices the electorate made.


PERINO: So that is basically what we thought they would say, which is that Russia was trying some funny business. It was unprecedented, but nobody can say it actually had an impact.

WATTERS: Russia provided hack material to a third person to walk to WikiLeaks. So all of you Assange kissers who were saying they didn't get it from Russia, duh, we knew that. We knew that. It came from a third party. But I don't even care about that. I don't care about that. I don't think this is about phishing or hacking anymore. During the Cold War, We have mutual assured destruction like if you blew us up, we blow you up. We don't have any policy on this stuff. And when they come after our power grid, which means if they get our hospitals, if they get our banks, if everything shuts down and the United States has a week with no food, no nothing, what do we do?

WATTERS: No food.

GUTFELD: No food. They shut down the power. No food.


GUTFELD: My point is this, you have to have deterrence. We have to have a nukeable offense. Say, if you attack our power grid, we will nuke you.

WATTERS: They don't have food in Russia anyway. So what are we going to do?

GUTFELD: I'm talking about North Korea, any kind of agent, sanctions aren't going to scare anybody. We can think about retaliation. We have to think about prevention. How do you make it clear to these people that if they do this, they all die, because sanctions isn't going to do it, and retaliation with cyberattacks isn't going to do it. You have to threaten them militarily. That's it.

PERINO: This is an astonishing thing, Kimberly, today. You have government officials saying that threats are increasing the cyber world.  We have a lot of competition. But what we don't have is deterrence and that we have a lot of work to do. This isn't a new problem and probably one of the reasons people are frustrated with Washington. In the last eight years, they really can't point to having something like Greg is talking about.

GUILFOYLE: Right. But I think this just really stresses and emphasizes the point that they need to overhaul and make some serious changes, so that actually we can do something about preventing this in the future. And also, then, there is a healthy bit of fear of reprisal and action back towards them if they are going to engage in this kind of behavior.  Obviously, we don't want Russia, North Korea, China, any other state agents coming against the United States, trying to influence and interfere in our elections. We can agree on when that. Obviously, Russia had something to do with this, they are behind it, it seems so. We also know clearly from what was presented today that no one can articulate or specify in any way that this affected the outcome of our election. No one can say that.


GUILFOYLE: So there you go. We take it from there. What steps do you take? Continue to do the investigation. Then let president-elect 45, Donald Trump, make the call.

PERINO: Speaking of Donald Trump, the NSA director was asked about Donald Trump's recent feud, I guess you could say, with the intelligence community over this issue. Here is what he had to say.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How has the president-elect at least encouraged dismissive attitude towards the intelligence community broadly impacted morale in your agencies?

CLAPPER: Well, I haven't done a climate survey, but I hardly think it helps it.

MIKE ROGERS, NSA DIRECTOR: I don't want to lose good, motivated people who want to help serve this nation because they are feeling they are not generating value to help this nation.


PERINO: Today, Donald Trump tweeted, the dishonest media likes saying that I am in agreement with Julian Assange. Wrong. I simply state what he states, it is for the people to make up their own minds and to truth, the media lies to make it look like I'm against intelligence, when in fact, I'm a big fan and intelligence wasn't close. Jesse, what do you make of that?

WATTERS: Well, I think what Trump say, intelligence is his most important quality. He loves intelligence, he loves intelligent people, he even loves the uninformed unintelligent people. I am so sick of this story, I am bored of it. I think it is like the dog ate my homework, it is the Koch brothers, then it is Fox News, it is big oil, it is Wall Street. They are kind of masquerading the fact that Hillary and Obama got embarrassed. If someone robbed your house, would you for six weeks straight tell the entire community, I got robbed? I mean, it makes America look weak. We are trying to go after Russia. Russia is trying to go after us. These things happen. We lost this round. I just, you know, get an alarm system and maybe go after the guy who did it. I won't advertise to the whole world that we just got smoked. It's embarrassing, I'm sick of it. It is the stupidest story.


WATTERS: And Podesta gave the email and password to the guy who tried to hack him. That's not hacking, that is just dumb.

GUILFOYLE: Password.


WATTERS: Password is password. I don't get it.

GUILFOYLE: OK, your password, Juan.



WILLIAMS: I wish that would work. In fact, yesterday, you said, I think in a break, you have a system.

GUTFELD: I have a system.

WILLIAMS: I spent 45 minutes.


PERINO: Then it says to put it in, you put it in again, it says rejected.

WILLIAMS: Exactly. I know this well.


WILLIAMS: Let me just say, I think this is a bigger story than Jesse wants to make it. Because he just wants to make it political. I think this is a real story. Like today, the real news to my mind was, the Wall Street Journal reported that the president-elect's team wants to restructure the entire intelligence community.

GUTFELD: Didn't they walk that back?

WILLIAMS: No. Trump said, the tweet that we heard, which is the phony media or the lying media, or something.

PERINO: The lying media.


PERINO: . said that the story was overwritten.

WILLIAMS: Overblown.

PERINO: Overblown. And I do think that there will be some legitimate reasons to reform some parts of the intelligence committee, but the whole reform. It is probably not going to happen the way that the Wall Street Journal necessarily wrote. But also, unfortunately, it got conflated and connected to the Russia story when I think that revamping the intel world had nothing to do necessarily with this specific issue.

WILLIAMS: Correct. Absolutely right. Because what you have is the proliferation of various agencies to the point where we had to create the director of national intelligence.

PERINO: That has not worked out well.

WILLIAMS: Yeah. There are a lot of loose strings. That guy repeating what this other guy is doing. But to come back to the hard notion here that this is just about politics, I don't think so. I think it really is about abuse of our political structure by a foreign government.

WATTERS: Why isn't Obama doing something about it as a lame-duck?


WILLIAMS: You know what's interesting, Jesse?


WILLIAMS: The left is still angry at Obama for not having gone harder after the Russians when it was first recognized. And this has been recognized for months.


WILLIAMS: You know what he said?


WILLIAMS: You don't want to overreact to these people. We don't want people to think they have the ability to influence the election.


WATTERS: Now, we're going to expel diplomats?

WILLIAMS: Let me just say, the other part of this, I don't see that Donald Trump benefits from making enemies in the intelligence community.


WATTERS: That hurts morale.

GUTFELD: OK. But we got to split this issue. I agree with you, the Russian hacking thing is not the story. The story is our future when it comes to technology. All those men have to go home and do their homework and talk about what attacks could happen. It probably is not going to be Russia. It might be an isolated agent. It could be terrorists. But we have to think about, what is the deterrence, how do we make it so it never happens? It is about our threat. We don't have the threat anymore. What we did with the Cold War is the nuclear bomb. We got to think that way again, sorry.


PERINO: We got to go.


WILLIAMS: You know what, Putin, you are really smart not to respond to what President Obama has done in terms of sanctions. What kind of message is that?


PERINO: All right. Coming up, I just want to keep going. So much for civility in the battle over ObamaCare, turning into a war of words.  President-elect Trump calling Senate majority leader a quote clown and Chuck Schumer fires right back, when "The Five" returns.


GUILFOYLE: The fight to repeal ObamaCare is underway, and it is already ugly.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Republican plan to cut healthcare wouldn't make America great again, it would make America sick again.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So make America sick again? Is that with the Republicans want to do?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All that will do is make America sick again.


GUILFOYLE: Well, that triggered this response from President-elect Trump.  Quote, "The Democrats, led by head clown Chuck Schumer, know how bad ObamaCare is and what a mess they are in. Instead of working to fix it, they do the typical political thing and blame. The fact is, ObamaCare was a lie from the beginning." Quote, "'Keep your doctor, keep your plan.'  It's time for Republicans and Democrats to get together and come up with a health care plan that really works, much less expensive and far better."

Minority Leader Schumer fired right back earlier.


SCHUMER: I say to the president-elect that this is serious, serious stuff.  People's health is at stake, and people's lives are at stake.

Now, we understand that President-elect Trump is in a difficult spot, that Republicans are in a difficult spot. They want to repeal ACA and have no idea how to replace it. But instead of calling names, president-elect should roll up his sleeves and show us a replacement plan that will cover the 20 million Americans who gained coverage.


GUILFOYLE: Oh, my goodness. Oh, Chuck, please pick up your head.

PERINO: I know. Three days in a row.

GUILFOYLE: I can't stand it anymore. Sister Jean-Marie, at Our Lady of Mercy Grammar School, would have been like, "Oh, Chuck, this is unacceptable. You must enunciate. You must make eye contact to be a good communicator." That's what I have to say.

Dana, do you agree, my speech and debate -- yes.

PERINO: Totally agree. It's three days in a row we've had soundbites from him. It's like, "Whoa. I do not want to miss Harry Reid." I do not miss Harry Reid.

I think the Democrats have come to the understanding and the realization that the death spiral of ObamaCare is upon us and that there is nothing they can do to stop it. And so they are going to help accelerate the demise of it and pin it on Donald Trump. And that's why they have come out with this thing where everybody says the exact same thing, "Make America sick again, make America sick again," which people will get sick of real quick. Because...

GUILFOYLE: Yes, speaking of.

PERINO: Most people, I think, out there in the world want it repealed, because they want a better system, and they want to have it more affordable. And they want to have something they can rely on, which is what they don't feel like they have now.

GUILFOYLE: Right. Jesse, why is better a bad thing?

WATTERS: Well, it can't get any worse. Because it's just (UNINTELLIGIBLE) upon us. It's like the patient has gangrene. And the Republicans are about there; they're about to amputate this thing. And Donald Trump is saying, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, you know, we're just trying to make the patient better. Why are we getting the blame for amputating this thing? And that's what you have to do sometimes. You just have to cut off the leg and rip the Band-Aid off quickly.

And the Democrats caused this problem.

GUTFELD: I don't want you to be my doctor.  

WATTERS: No one does. No one does.

GUILFOYLE: That would be an example of ObamaCare right there.

WATTERS: I know, it's blame shifting. And the Democrats caused this, and Republicans are trying to shift the blame. They just try have to make a soft landing for people that had it and then quick relief for the employers that are getting hammered.

I don't trust Washington politicians to solve this. It's going to be a mess. I don't think anybody is smart enough in Washington to fix this problem quickly. It's going to be a disaster either way you write it.

But Chuck Schumer -- I love the Schumer clown slang. This is like the new "Lyin' Ted," the new "Crooked Hillary." It's delightful. I really get a kick out of this.

But the more, I think, we see Chuck Schumer, and the more we see Nancy Pelosi as the spokespeople for the Democratic Party, I think that's great news for Republicans and Donald Trump.

GUILFOYLE: Yes. Bad. Bad for your team, Juan. So sorry.

WILLIAMS: I don't think it's bad at all.

Here is the -- here is the other side of this story, which is that I think Democrats are saying, "Hey, you're right. Twenty million people lose their health insurance. Let's see what you say to them." OK, you can come back.

WATTERS: Hasn't President Obama already gotten them off those plans?


WATTERS, Yes, he did.

WILLIAMS: But I think there are consequences for people -- and we discussed at this table -- for people who are individuals. There were individuals in the private market, who saw they couldn't keep their doctors, who saw their premiums increase. And they're the ones who are aggrieved and have legitimate grievance. And small business. There were individuals in the private who saw they couldn't keep their doctors, who set their premiums increase, and they were the ones who were aggrieved and had the legitimate grievances, and small businesses and small business owners.

WATTERS: You think ObamaCare is doing well? And you want it to continue?

WILLIAMS: I think...

WATTERS: Is that what you're saying?

WILLIAMS: Yes, very much.

WATTERS: You like it?

WILLIAMS: I do. I think...

WATTERS: Do you like the premium increases? You must have a lot of money, Juan, because most people can't afford that.

WILLIAMS: The fact is, premium increases are less than they were predicted to be.

WATTERS: Juan, it advertised that he was supposed to reduce premiums, and now they're skyrocketing 116...

WILLIAMS: They have not even reached the level at which they were predicted to be. But let me just make this point.

GUILFOYLE: OK. But can we get an ObamaCare timeout?

WILLIAMS: I can't make a point? I'm not allowed?

GUILFOYLE: But I have -- I have someone who's sick and needs medical attention -- Greg.

GUTFELD: I'm more offended by the fact that we keep referring to the term "clown" as an insult. Being a clown is a...

WILLIAMS: Is scary.

GUTFELD: No. It's an accomplishment.

GUILFOYLE: Weren't they banned?

GUTFELD: You make -- you make children happy. Everybody loves a birthday clown. They make balloon animals. A lot of our most famous loved Americans started out as clowns, like Willard Scott, Willard Scott, Willard Scott. Lou Dobbs. Lou Dobbs...

GUILFOYLE: Oh! No, no, no. No, no, no.

GUTFELD: By the way, if this is -- I hope this is the extent of the conflicts that we have. If we have four years of these cat fights, I mean, that's great. It's like watching four years of Bravo. This is going to be good. If our conflicts are small and catty, that's good.

WILLIAMS: But that's not small.

GUILFOYLE: Why is it good?

GUTFELD: Yes, it is.

WILLIAMS: Health care?

GUTFELD: I mean, you know what -- well, it's almost over.

WILLIAMS: Well, it's almost over. My point to you, by the way, earlier that I couldn't say was that, in fact, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, I think that's why the Democrats think, "Oh, if you have trouble with this, Republicans, we'll see how the voters react. Go right ahead."

WATTERS: Yes. You guys lost the last election because of ObamaCare.

GUILFOYLE: All right, we've got to go. I'm keeping the clicker on the word count, and I think you can figure out at home who's winning the bingo.

Coming up, President Obama still attempting to defend his legacy as he prepares to leave the White House. His farewell letter to the American people when "The Five" returns.


WILLIAMS: In 15 days, President Obama will leave the White House, and he's proud of what he's accomplished over the last eight years. In an exit memo to Americans, he says, quote, "By so many measures, our country is stronger and more prosperous than it was when we started, a situation I'm proud to leave for my successor."

Newt Gingrich has a very different assessment.



NEWT GINGRICH, FORMER SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: This is like one of those dolls that you watch the air come out of it, and it shrinks and shrinks.  By the time you get to Easter, the ObamaCare, the Obama legacy is going to be so small, you're going to need a microscope to find it.


WILLIAMS: Bernie Sanders says the Democratic Party is in bad shape because they've lost so many congressional seats.

GUILFOYLE: Yes, no kidding.


SEN. BERNIE SANDERS, I-VT.: When we have lost the House, when we lost the Senate, when we have lost the White House, when we have lost 900 legislative seats, two-thirds of the governor's chairs are now controlled by Republicans, maybe, maybe something is fundamentally wrong with the Democratic Party. And I think, within the Democratic Party, more and more people understand we have to change the dynamics. we have to open the doors to young people, working people. We need to bring a lot more people into the process.


WILLIAMS: So, Dana, there seems to be a difference. Obviously, Republicans don't like Obama. Democrats like Obama. The numbers, in terms of his approval rating, very high at this moment...


WILLIAMS: ... for a president leaving office. How do you argue, how do you think about, in fact, whether or not he has been a successful president?

PERINO: Well, I think that, when you ask legacy questions, one of my favorite things is what George Bush used to say to me when I would ask him, "So what do you -- the press is going to ask you what you think your legacy will be."

And he would say, "Well, last year, I read three biographies about George Washington, and if historians are still analyzing the first president, than the 43rd doesn't have a lot to worry about, because he'll never know."

So in Obama's lifetime, he may never know how he is considered. In fact, if you talk to Marlin Fitzwater, who was press secretary to George H.W. Bush, he said on the day that they left in 1993, that he never in a million years thought that people would look so fondly back at that presidency and hold 41 in such high regard.

So it's hard when you're leaving the White House and the opposite party is coming in for you to make the case that you've done such a great job. But he's going to make it. One of the reasons that he wrote a letter like this is so that it can be in his library one day, because he's going to try to write the history first.

WILLIAMS: And in fact, Jesse, what you see is that the Trump people like Newt Gingrich say, "Hey, you know what? We're going to dismantle, tear apart this man's legacy in a matter of days."

WATTERS: Yes. They're going to have to start downsizing Obama's presidential library pretty soon. There's not a lot to go in there, Juan.

The only thing he's actually left stronger has been the Republican Party, because domestically, his signature achievement, ObamaCare, is going to be reduced to rubble. Internationally, you have the Iran deal. He got troops out of Iraq, and he killed bin Laden. I think only one of those three things is going to stand the test of time.

GUILFOYLE: And he spent a lot of money, 20 trillion in debt.

WATTERS: Yes. So you have the huge debt. You have flat wages. You have weakest recovery since World War II. I think socially maybe probably oversaw a lot of progress, as you guys like to say, on gay marriage and weed and social justice. But I don't know if the country was going at the same pace he was, and I think that was some backlash over that.

You know, Juan, it's sad. I think he will be remembered symbolically as the first black president, and I think that's the main thing that everybody should be most proud of.

WILLIAMS: And Kimberly, he put out this memo that we've been discussing...

GUILFOYLE: Bill Clinton.

WATTERS: That's right, Bill Clinton.

WILLIAMS: ... and he said unemployment's down, right?


WILLIAMS: Median income up, GDP...

GUILFOYLE: No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

WILLIAMS: ... federal budget deficit is down.

GUILFOYLE: Median household incomes have dropped over the past seven years.

WILLIAMS: Individual, I think, is what I'm looking at here.

GUILFOYLE: From fifty-seven to fifty-two percent.

WILLIAMS: He talked about the auto industry. Are those legitimate claims?

GUILFOYLE: I mean, I don't know. I've got to go to China to get a car.

WILLIAMS: You've got to go to China?

GUILFOYLE: I mean, are you kidding me? We've been exporting America.  We've been -- jobs leaving, money leaving, corporations leaving, because this has been a hostile environment in every shape and form. We're overly regulated. We're overly taxed. And we're like the third highest in general top-margin corporate income tax rate in the world, OK? Thirty- eight point 9-2 percent. This is not anything that's encouraging people to do business here.

That's part of the reason why Donald Trump was elected. When you look at all the exit polls, people talked about the economy. They talked about jobs. They talked about having money in their pockets and their wallets and not being, you know, apprehensive about the future and about the direction of this country.

WILLIAMS: Well, picking up on Kimberly's point...

GUILFOYLE: Obama is personally popular. His policies have not been and have not worked.

WILLIAMS: I was going to say -- I was going to ask you why you had voted for Obama again. And then I realized you didn't vote for Obama this third time. But you didn't -- lots of people say the biggest point of failure for Obama is that, despite his popularity, people didn't vote for his chosen successor.

GUTFELD: He has left America stronger. We have 500 new gender pronouns that we didn't have before. We have a whole new class of grievances.  There are more men, millions more men in skinny jeans. I think that's great.

GUILFOYLE: Man buns.

GUTFELD: Man buns everywhere. Video game -- video game usage is way up.

WATTERS: Thanks, Obama.

GUTFELD: Why do we care?

GUILFOYLE: Thanks, Obama.

GUTFELD: Why do we care? He's leaving in two weeks. You know, let him go. It's like bringing up your ex-girlfriend on your honeymoon.

Just say, "Look, dude, you did a great job. Awesome. You were the best progressive leader I've ever seen in my life." Two weeks, shake hands, we're all good friends. How's that?

WILLIAMS: In fact, I think Mrs. Clinton is going to shake Donald Trump's hand at the inaugural.

Ahead, a very interesting update on Dan Rather, the former CBS journalist at the center of one of the biggest fake news scandals in American history, now what's he going to do? Stay tuned.  


WATTERS: Fake news out there, but this story is actually true, even though it sounds hard to believe. You all know Dan Rather, one of the pioneers of fake news. The former CBS news man was disgraced after a bogus report on former President George W. Bush more than a decade ago.

Want to know what he's up to now? Teaching students about truthful reporting. That's right. Rather is teaching an online course focused on ethics in journalism.

So we found out the first guest lecturer that Rather is going to bring on is going to be "Rolling Stone" magazine, OK? So what's going on? Does Dan Rather even remember why he got in trouble?

GUTFELD: His life was so easy back then. There was no competition. You had three channels and PBS. Imagine going to the Cheesecake Factory, and there's meat loaf, meat loaf, and meat loaf.

By the way you know what? He's missing the boat. He should have a dating show called "Would You Rather?"

GUILFOYLE: That's awesome.

GUTFELD: And the woman is offered either a date with Dan Rather or a date with some other man or woman, because it's 2017, America, but at the end, they'd go, "Would You Rather?" And at the end of every show, he just leaves with the girl.

WATTERS: I love it. Dan Rather, if you're listening, look that up.

So it's not even an real university, Dana. It's an online university.  It's not even as good as the University of Phoenix.

PERINO: Hey, that's the future. He's 85 years old, and he's on top of the future of education.

I do want to give a shout out to Robert Bluey, who is now at "The Daily Signal" and runs that web site at Heritage Foundation. He is the one who broke the story,, on September 9, 2004, where he said that the documents may have been forged using current word processing programming, according to typography experts. He blew away The New York Times, The Washington Post. Everybody was just following Dan Rather, and it was a blogger, Rob Bluey, who figured it out.

WATTERS: Are you comfortable with Rather as the ombudsman of journalism ethics, Juan?

WILLIAMS: Well, you know, I think Dan Rather is a pretty good journalist, but he made a terrible mistake. And the question is, you know, can they sell this? And I think lots of people would buy the idea of a great name, Dan Rather, CBS, although they've disassociated themselves from him, as someone you can go to and talk to about it in the age of fake news, what's real and not real. But, boy, it open the doors to charges of hypocrisy and double standards. Doesn't it?

GUILFOYLE: Oh, look, you matched the banner.

WATTERS: All right, Kimberly.

GUILFOYLE: Love it when that happens.

WATTERS: Yes. We all know what you think of Dan Rather, but we've got to go to the break.

GUILFOYLE: Would you rather?

WATTERS: That's right. You'd play. "One More Thing" is up next.


GUTFELD: "One More Thing," Kimberly.

GUILFOYLE: All right. Well, you may remember Taylor Schofield, the wonderful young man that Eric and I met during our New Year's Eve coverage in 2015. He was then suffering from kidney failure, and thanks to the Make-a-Wish Foundation, he got the opportunity of a lifetime, living his dream to be in Times Square for New Year's Eve and ringing in 2016, along with his wonderful family, on national TV.

Well, now I have an amazing update from the family: his dad, Ed, and mom, Barbara. On October 18, Taylor received his dad's kidney at UCLA, and for the first time in a year and a half he would not have to rely on a dialysis machine to keep him alive.

Both Taylor and his dad came through the kidney transplant surgery with flying colors, and Taylor is now enjoying his new freedom; and he feels incredible. What a wonderful young man he is. He's a phenomenal dancer.  He and I danced the night away after, you know, midnight. It was very nice, with parental approval. And he was fantastic. He's full of life and energy, and God bless you, Taylor, and to your family, big kiss.



All right. Me, that's me. All right, January 28, after the inauguration, you're going to want to go to Warner Theatre in D.C., because right there-- see that? There's Dana. That's Larry Gatlin. That's myself. For a night of dancing, crying, laughing and singing. It's called "Short Stories."  We're going to talk about politics and everything. It's January 28, Warner Theater in Washington, D.C. Go to Get your tickets.

Now it's time for something new.


GUTFELD: "Greg's Honesty News."


GUTFELD: This is an amazing study. Do you know that two studies have found out that people who swear more are more honest, and people who swear less are dishonest. So what does that tell you?

GUILFOYLE: Oh, I love this.

GUTFELD: Swearing more is real.

GUILFOYLE: I think it's true.

GUTFELD: Because you get to your genuine self when you swear. So you're less likely to cover things up.

GUILFOYLE: More of a visceral response.

WATTERS: Dana is dishonest.

GUTFELD: Oh, she swears like a truck driver. She is something.

GUILFOYLE: Oh! Let me tell you.

PERINO: I have a very good friend who is very honest, but she would not want me to say her name, because her mom watches the show.

GUILFOYLE: Don't talk about...

PERINO: Am I next?

Nominations are now open for the 2017 Armed Forces Insurance Military Spouse of The Year. So this is a program celebrating its tenth anniversary. Open to all military spouses in each branch so they can be recognized for their commitment and sacrifice. You can make nominations, too. We're going to put it up there for you: MS -- (ph). Six spouses will be chosen to represent each military branch, and then they get an overall military spouse of the year. It's a really great program. We should celebrate these fabulous spouses. And then the winners will be announced on May 12 at an event at the Chamber of Commerce in D.C.


WILLIAMS: This is for my fellow aging athletes out there. Yesterday, 105- year-old Robert Marchand set a world record in Beladron (ph), just outside of Paris. He cycled into history, becoming the oldest man to bike 14.8 miles in under an hour.

What makes the story even better is that when he was a kid, they told him he'd never achieve anything in cycling. But boy, did he show them wrong.

And after the race he said he hasn't even -- you know, wasn't even tired.  He could have gone faster. And in fact, he did when he was 102, but this time, he missed the notice for the last lap, and so he didn't speed up.

GUTFELD: All right. Jesse.

WATTERS: You guys all remember the clown that went after Ivanka Trump and her child on the plane. Well, I tracked this guy down. And here's a little taste.


WATTERS: You harassed a woman with her baby on a flight. You proud of that?

Real class act, aren't you? Now you're afraid to show your face.



WATTERS: So the full confrontation will be on my new show, "Watters' World," 8 p.m. It's weekly now.

GUTFELD: Congrats!

GUILFOYLE: Congratulations.

WATTERS: Thank you guys very much. So please tune in.


WATTERS: And Kimberly will be a guest. I remembered that.

GUILFOYLE: Thank you, Jesse.

GUTFELD: All right, set your DVR so you never miss an episode of "The Five." That does it for us. "Special Report" is up next.

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