Trump chooses ObamaCare critic to revamp health care system

This is a rush transcript from "The Five," November 29, 2016. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

ERIC BOLLING, CO-HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Eric Bolling along with Kimberly Guilfoyle, Juan Williams, Dana Perino, and Greg Gutfeld. It is 5 o'clock in New York City. And this is The Five.

Another very busy day for the president-elect. Mr. Trump meeting with more potential nominees for his cabinet, including three contenders for Secretary of State. Developments on that just ahead. But first, to the two major appointments today. Our sources say that president-elect has chosen Elaine Chao a former labor secretary head -- I'm sorry, from the labor secretary to head the transportation department. But the bigger news is a selection for Health and Human Services secretary. He picked Georgia Congressman, Dr. Tom Price, a fierce critic of Obamacare who had confirmed will likely help him dismantle the disastrous healthcare law. Democrats are already voicing outrage about the selection. Here's some reaction from the White House.


JOSH EARNEST, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The president-elect has chosen to nominate someone to be his secretary of Health and Human Services who is an ardent opponent of the Affordable Care Act, and somebody who says he is committed to repealing it, that the only kinds of ideas that have been put forth by the Republicans to the extent that they put forward any ideas, and there have not been many. But when they have, they actually have been ideas for undermining the law, not strengthening it. Their promise to change it, I think it's going to be challenging.


BOLLING: All right, KG, why is this coming as a surprise to Democrats? They knew that Donald Trump nominee -- Donald Trump candidate, Donald Trump said if he won, he was going to dismantle and take part, and maybe repeal and replace Obamacare. Dr. Price, an opponent of Obamacare, has even floated his own alternative to Obamacare.

KIMBERLY GUILFOYLE, CO-HOST: Well, it sounds like somebody really prepared, shovel ready, to be able to go in there and head the department, and get things done. Just one of the things that president- elect promised that he would do to his supporters as he campaigned across the country, that he was going to do something to repeal and replace Obamacare. Then we saw that he met with President Obama who is, by all accounts, quite charming, and talk to him. So they were surprised because they thought maybe he would walk it back, not do it. He agreed about two things that he was going to do in the Republican plan as well. So we're going to have to see what his specific ideas are, and if that comports with obviously what president-elect Trump wants to do.

BOLLING: What do you think, Juan, what surprised them on the left?

JUAN WILLIAMS, CO-HOST: Well, I think they are surprised that this is not someone who has any interest in sort of maintaining health insurance program, not only for people who are poor, who are covered in large part by Obamacare, but goes beyond that to things like Medicare and Medicaid, and programs that benefit our soldiers. So it allows people to opt out. His basic idea, Eric, is that you should go away from a basic entitlement and make it income sensitive.

BOLLING: A tax credit.

WILLIAMS: So it's a tax credit or a tax deduction. You said a tax credit, but you have to earn enough to qualify for.


WILLIAMS: You have to earn enough.

BOLLING: A deduction you have to earn enough. A tax credit.

WILLIAMS: A tax credit, you still have to earn enough.


WILLIAMS: Well, the poor would not be -- because they wouldn't be able to.

BOLLING: Of course, they do. That's the difference between a tax cut or tax deduction and a tax credit. If you don't pay taxes and you get a tax credit, you actually get government subsidy.

DANA PERINO, CO-HOST: I agree that it's going to be difficult. It's an uphill challenge because President Obama baked the law so far into the system that it will be difficult to dismantle it, but it's not impossible. And Dr. Price, one of the things that he's done is introduce a bill that was solely focused on patients, the Empowering Patients First Act. And I think that approach would be very welcomed for people who supported Donald Trump and beyond. Because what it is saying is that we know -- remember that study out of Oregon that showed people on Medicaid had worse health outcomes than people who did not, than before they were on Medicaid.

So what it's saying is that you -- it's sort of like school choice, it is like you, the person, a citizen of the United States, maybe you don't make enough to get a tax deduction, but we can give you a tax credit. And if you want to shop around, and you don't want to have Medicaid in your state, you can shop around for different places where you can get better care for your family. It's a radically different approach. And I know, Juan, I agree -- I mean, you're shaking your head. It's going to be difficult. But it's not impossible.


WILLIAMS: So I'm very sensitive to you on this point because I think you've told me personally that this has created a tremendous headache for you.

PERINO: Which one?

WILLIAMS: Obamacare.

PERINO: Obamacare, personally, right.

WILLIAMS: So I always think, what is it -- what's the difference here and my sense of it is, even something that Eric says, the tax credit would benefit because it's a subsidy. But you know the way I think of it is, what you're saying to people in many cases, that the tax credit wouldn't even be enough to cover your deductible.

GREG GUTFELD, CO-HOST: Can I jump in here?



GUTFELD: All right. Cool.

GUILFOYLE: Who are you?

GUTFELD: My name is Greg. I usually sit here in the corner. Here's the big problem. When you're taking out the trash, people still see you as taking something away.

WILLIAMS: Correct.

GUTFELD: And that's the problem with a government program that is horrible. People still say, but it's already there, how dare you take it away? Well, the problem is.


GUTFELD: Health spending is 17 percent of our GDP. It's a difference in philosophy. You have a guy named Price who believes in real growth as opposed to a government program which is fake growth. When a government program gets bigger, it simply gets bigger and costlier. But if you actually put something in private enterprise, like when you're talking about medical savings accounts, which he's for, then if the program grows, so does the economy. Everybody gets wealthier. People get more jobs. That doesn't happen with something like Obamacare. It's nothing more than a program that survives on its own self getting bigger. The economy itself doesn't get bigger. That's why it's bad. That's why you hired -- or he's putting forth Price and this (Inaudible) who is dealing with Medicare and she is a health industry expert to understand this transition, to know for a fact that liberals and Democrats are going to say, you're an awful person for getting rid of this program. You have two people there that are saying, no, here's the transition. Here's what we're going to do.

WILLIAMS: I'm all for it.


PERINO: When he said I've had problems with Obamacare, the problems I've had are not about having access to care. Obviously, I'm in a position where I can be able to afford it. Our problem has been that you have a changing system, like every six months, you find out that the insurer that you have is no longer going to be covered in Manhattan. So you've got to find another one. And then you find out the doctor that you wanted doesn't take that insurance anymore, et cetera. What I'm talking about in terms of these tax credits are for people that might want to have a different or better system and not have to be under the government program.


BOLLING: And the beauty of it -- I'm sorry, Juan, but the beauty of it is it removes the mandate. The mandate is a part of Obamacare.


WILLIAMS: OK. This is so frustrating to me.

BOLLING: Why would that frustrate you? This actually allows someone with a low income to no income to take a tax credit and go shop and get good healthcare.


WILLIAMS: And it's not large enough to cover even the deductible, which was my earlier point. But here's the thing. Let me give you what I think is Tom Price's heart and soul. And it comes back to something Greg was talking about. Tom Price says, government should not be involved with healthcare.


WILLIAMS: And we should get them out and healthcare should be up to you, individual citizen, Ms. Dana Perino.


GUILFOYLE: Empowering patients.

WILLIAMS: But what is his proposal? His proposal is give it to a block grant as the states and the states then can determine eligibility, and in some cases, he doesn't even -- he doesn't even consider anything like income. So I read today one guy said Bill Gates under Tom Price's plan would get the maximum benefit, but a kid under 18 would be limited and that kid may have greater needs let's say than the billionaire Bill Gates.


GUILFOYLE: That's a plan proposal in 2009.

WILLIAMS: That's his proposal.

GUILFOYLE: Right. But nevertheless, he's going to have to put together a plan that the president-elect would also agree with. So, yes, he's somebody that didn't just complain about Obamacare, he came forward with his own ideas and solution. That's positive to begin with. And now, what you do is go back in and learn from what we saw about the pitfalls of Obamacare and make some positive changes. So that it's comprehensive reform that actually works.


GUTFELD: We're all going to end up in the middle. We all know this. It's not going to be purely, you know, a private, free market solutions with no government involvement. And it's not going to be all government. It's going to be somewhere in the middle, but the first thing you've got to do is fix or get rid of Obamacare.


GUTFELD: A lot of alternatives. You focus on lawsuit abuse, medical savings accounts.


BOLLING: And by the way, this has to go through Congress as well, if you eliminate Obamacare and bring something else. So he has to work with Congress to come up with an alternative that is acceptable to Senate and Congress.

WILLIAMS: I agree with that.

BOLLING: You're taking something that he floated seven years ago as an alternative.


BOLLING: It's not perfect but it's certainly better.

WILLIAMS: There's nothing wrong with him. Why is Josh Earnest lamenting? Why is Chuck Schumer, who is the incoming.


BOLLING: Senate minority leader Chuck Schumer is also voicing his disapproval of the Price pick for HSS. Listen.


CHUCK SCHUMER, SENATE MINORITY LEADER: I was just so disappointed to see the president-elect nominate Congressman Price to serve as secretary of Health and Human Services this morning. When it comes to issues like Medicare, the Affordable Care Act, and Planned Parenthood, Congressman Price and the average American couldn't be further apart.

There are a whole numbers of Republicans who are not going to be for privatizing Medicare, and there ought to be bipartisan support against a secretary who is going to privatize Medicare and not fund Plan Parenthood.


BOLLING: Go ahead, Juan.


WILLIAMS: So I was going to say, why is he saying that? Why is Nancy Pelosi saying families are going to get left out in the coal?



WILLIAMS: No, no. I think seniors will be scared legitimately because you know what, people like Medicare in this country. People like Social Security. This is Greg's point. It exists and it's hard to say I'm going to take this away from you.

PERINO: But that's not what Trump has said.


WILLIAMS: Oh, go ahead.

PERINO: And so, I think president-elect Trump has said that he would actually not do anything to take money away from the current Social Security system, which actually rankle some on the far right, who say we can't really afford that. But I think Dr. Price is not going to go to HHS and then all of a sudden, not be connected to Donald Trump's policy.

WILLIAMS: No, but remember, Paul Ryan, the speaker, has said that he would like to privatize Medicare.

PERINO: Parts of it, yes.

WILLIAMS: Yes. Why are you smiling?


PERINO: Because this is what the Democrats -- I don't think that there is anyone that Donald Trump would put forward for HHS secretary that Schumer and Pelosi would not say that about. They've been dining out on the healthcare issue for so long, but I think they have to keep in mind, after President Obama went forward with a partisan plan on Obamacare, he then lost congressional seats in 2012, 2014 and 2016. There is a pattern here. And they have a chance to fix it, 80 percent of the people polled at the election said they thought Obamacare needed to be fixed.


PERINO: So if Donald Trump is willing to come to the table with someone like Tom Price, why not take a chance and see if there's a way to make it more affordable?


GUILFOYLE: He took over Paul Ryan, chairman of the -- I think this is good. I'm looking forward to it.

WILLIAMS: Well, I think this demolition derby. And this guy is a darling of the insurance industry. That's what he is.




BOLLING: The darling of getting government out of the healthcare business of which he is going to oversee. You got to love that.

WILLIAMS: Yeah, yeah.

BOLLING: That's draining the swamp right there. All right. Don't forget, vice president-elect Mike Pence is on Hannity tonight. I just bumped into him, I spoke to him for a few minutes, what a great guy. This is a must- see interview. You're going to love that one.

Next, new developments on the highly coveted Secretary of State position when The Five returns.


PERINO: More developments now in the Trump transition. Still no word yet on the Secretary of State position but president-elect Trump may be getting closer to making a decision. He met earlier with another contender Senate Foreign Relations Committee Chair, Bob Corker. Later, he'll hold a second meeting with 2012 GOP nominee, Mitt Romney, this one over dinner. And former New York mayor Rudy Giuliani reportedly also has a meeting scheduled with the president-elect today. Yesterday, he met with former CIA director, General David Petraeus. Vice-president elect Mike Pence spoke to Sean Hannity about the Secretary of State position. That interview will air tonight at 10:00 p.m. Eastern, but we, at The Five, have a sneak peek.


MIKE PENCE, VICE-PRESIDENT ELECT: I think what you're witnessing here, we met with Senator Bob Corker today at the Trump Tower, with General Petraeus yesterday, and met very often with Rudy Giuliani, and talked to John Bolton, communicated with him today and the dinner that is happening tonight. I think what you're witnessing here is a leader in president- elect Donald Trump who wants to take in all the options. And I'm absolutely confident that he's going to choose the right person in every single one of these cases.


PERINO: All right, Greg. It's the state of intrigue that continues.


PERINO: What do you make of it all?

GUTFELD: Well, OK. So president-elect Trump is meeting with Mitt Romney for dinner. You know what's missing? Alcohol. How do you lubricate this meeting? There's going to be a lot of tension.


GUTFELD: They are going to be drinking Diet Coke or iced tea. Alcohol was invented for dinners and dates, precisely for this reason, to get over the awkwardness. I'm getting a little bit tired though of the Tower watch. Today, Mika -- what's her name?


GUTFELD: Mika Brzezinski, she was there. It's like a red carpet for people who never get on the red carpet. It's like the Playboy Mansion for nerds.


GUTFELD: Actually, I could go to that. I would fit in there perfectly there.

PERINO: Do you think they are getting closer to a decision, Kimberly?



PERINO: You think they're getting closer to a decision?

GUILFOYLE: You know, I think it's interesting, it's like the saga, the intrigue continues. I mean, what I like is it's showing that he's not just being an ideologue. He's actually trying to be pragmatic and do best practices, and choose people that he thinks would actually perform best in the position. But I think it's also important that you have somebody who shares your world view, your ideas to be able to work together in unison, like we saw President Obama work so well with Eric Holder and you know, Loretta Lynch as well. So there's got to be some kind of symbiotic relationship and understanding between the two. It is not impossible for it develop in the interim, but we already know he has it with somebody like Rudy Giuliani because they work so extensively together during this campaign.

PERINO: And interesting to me, Eric, it's one thing to have an interview with somebody and another to share a meal and that being dinner. Do you think that signifies anything?

BOLLING: There's a lot of speculation because they are having dinner and it goes well, Mitt Romney will likely get the nod. I personally hope -- I love Rudy. I think he deserves it. He was there from day one. I love General Petraeus. I think he's probably the most qualified. He would do a great job around the world. For some reason, I'm not feeling the Romney pick. I'm not sure why.

GUILFOYLE: What about Corker?

BOLLING: No, I -- no. Elaine Chao, last night, I heard she was going to be her for transportation secretary.


PERINO: Leaked out last night?

BOLLING: A little bit. But I think this is great. Think about what this is. Elaine Chao, a very capable transportation secretary, but also the wife of Mitch McConnell, the senate majority leader. That is fantastic.

PERINO: You want to get that infrastructure built through?


BOLLING: Can I point something out? A lot of females are being put in very, very important and influential positions, pushing back against the left and Democrat accusations that Donald Trump can't win the female vote, can't win the hearts, or can't win but white males in America. That's all completely wrong.

PERINO: Elaine Chao was the longest serving.


GUTFELD: She was under Bush for eight years and then she was under the elder Bush as well, and married Mitch McConnell. That's not an outsider, that's not draining the swamp. That's filling the swamp up.


GUILFOYLE: Sometimes you have to put somebody who is the best in there.


GUTFELD: You get to define what the swamp is.

GUILFOYLE: Well, no. I wouldn't call it swamp anymore. I would call it a glorious aquarium.


BOLLING: Drain the swamp. Sometimes it doesn't completely drain.


WILLIAMS: Tom Price gets to stay, right, because he's a six-term congressman.

PERINO: Elected in 2004.

WILLIAMS: Yeah. So Tom Price stays, Elaine Chao stays. I don't know about the swamping anymore. But I will say this, I'm fascinated by the Secretary of State issue because I saw it on CBS, they're saying, oh, this is all, Giuliani that has it in the bag.

BOLLING: I hope so.

WILLIAMS: And I thought this was genuine. I thought that they were really going about something. But the question is, what are they doing? Are they embarrassing Mitt Romney?

GUTFELD: Are they trolling Mitt?


BOLLING: Mitt doesn't have to show up.

WILLIAMS: He shows up because I think for Mitt Romney this would be the cool, this would be the top thing in his career.


BOLLING: He's showing off in middle November when the last 18 months he was completely.


WILLIAMS: So is this all a hoax. Kellyanne Conway comes out and says very harsh things, and then shows herself right there with the president-elect that she is not ducking him.


GUTFELD: I don't know.


WILLIAMS: I'm going to tell you this. I don't understand Giuliani at all. You say you're comfortable.



BOLLING: I think he will have a respect of -- not just being loyal. I think you need to be awarded for your loyalty. This is a big job. I understand that, too. The guy has been around the world a hundred times.


BOLLING: He commands respect everywhere with the exception of the liberal left in America. The rest of the world respected the guy.

GUILFOYLE: And high energy.


WILLIAMS: Let me say something. Mr. Bad Stuff is going to have a tough time at confirmation. That's not good for your president-elect.

GUTFELD: Mr. Bad Stuff. That sounds like a song.


GUILFOYLE: That sounds like Sesame Street.


PERINO: We're going to move on. We're learning more about the Muslim refugee blamed for the yesterday's attack in Ohio State.

Plus one prominent Democrat is forced to retract his words after rushing the blamed guns for the violence, ahead.


GUTFELD: So after a terrorist is shot dead by a cop after trying to kill innocent people with his car and a blade, Tim Kaine initially tweets this: "Deeply saddened by the senseless act of gun violence at Ohio State this morning, praying for the injured and the entire Buckeye community."

So let me get this straight: A man tries to kill with a car and a knife, but the villain is a gun -- a gun that was used to shoot and kill the guy who was using the car and the knife to kill people. For Kaine, I would say it's the thought that counts, but what he said was thoughtless. There's nothing senseless about this gun violence. Hell, it may be the most sensible thing ever. What's thoughtless is the knee-jerk response you get from the left over guns.

Kaine since corrected the tweet, but others actually used this attack, which was foiled by a gun, to demand more gun control. FYI: The terrorist actually said quote, "I am willing to use a billion infidels in retribution." This mentality, destroy the Earth to please God, is an argument for more, not less guns.

Set to recap: After ISIS called for attacks using cars and knives, a young Muslim terrorist follows the orders and gets shot for it. And Kaine, among others, just saw the gun. Kaine could have been VP. I guess you could say we dodged a bullet, unlike that terrorist.

So Dana, exciting news, I think the FBI found evidence that the attacker wasn't inspired by ISIS. I think we kind of saw that coming.

PERINO: About two hours ago, the BBC tweeted a news story that so-called ISIS.


PERINO: It's driving me crazy. They call them the Islamic State.


PERINO: So we should take them at their word.


PERINO: That's what they want to create, is an Islamic state, and they will try to inspire anyone, including 18-year-old men who could have been full of promise, had a chance to go to OSU, live in the United States of America and gave it up. Apparently, it only took 15 to 30 seconds for him to be stopped by the gun.

GUTFELD: I think the officer was there for a different reason.

PERINO: Right.

GUTFELD: Luckily, for everybody, Kimberly, he was there.


GUTFELD: Kaine has back-pedaled on this because he realized the gun wasn't being used.


GUILFOYLE: It was used by the hero.


GUTFELD: It was like, oops, change the story.

GUILFOYLE: Unbelievable. So OK, that's really being well-prepared. Thank God he's not going to be the VP. We already knew this, right, because if we would take these terrorists for their word instead of looking for 25 different excuses to say it's not terrorists, but it's gun violence, except for the car and knife that were used. He posted a Facebook rant shortly before the attack, praising Anwar al Awlaki that obviously showed that he was inspired by him, and then ISIS took credit for it. So now they've determined, rather quickly for them that, in fact, this was terrorism committed, again, on U.S. soil.

GUTFELD: Eric, do you think the left will ever get over that desire to blame guns whenever anything happens?

BOLLING: I guess not. Here's what we're missing. We're missing, you know, the real headline of this story is that a Somali refugee ended up perpetrating terror on Americans, that's homegrown terror. That's what it's called.


BOLLING: But the problem was President Obama wanted to increase our refugee program to something like 65,000 refugees. Hillary Clinton says she wanted to go even further into the hundreds of thousands.

Now, we allegedly, you know, vet these people, but if you have a small pie and were vetting them and they're still terrorists, they still end up producing terrorists. What happens when you have a massively large pie? What happens when you have 40 different pies from 40 different countries that may send terrorists over in the refugee program like ISIS has promised. Or there would be more terror. Thank God we have Donald Trump as president and not Hillary Clinton as president, or you'd be seeing a lot more homegrown terror incidents like this.

WILLIAMS: Wow. Because I think -- I am shocked. I am shocked, because I think America is a land of immigrants, and I think that, you know what? I see more mass murders and more use of guns by people who are American citizens than I do by immigrants, even illegal immigrants. So that's why I'm shocked by...

GUTFELD: I think the point was that this wasn't really -- this was turned into something about guns when it's about...

WILLIAMS: Well, what I'm telling you, I want to respond to you, which is to say, I'm glad he didn't have a gun, because then he would have been able to kill somebody who didn't have a gun because apparently...

BOLLING: Why didn't he have a gun. It wasn't available to him?

WILLIAMS: I don't know. All I know is he didn't have a gun, thank God.

GUTFELD: But he had a car, which is really a big gun.

WILLIAMS: Well, I don't know it's a big -- no, I use my car to get around.

GUTFELD: You can kill a lot of people with a car.

WILLIAMS: He tried to hurt somebody without a doubt, but what I'm saying is there's a practical use. I think guns are used to kill people or animals or whatever.

GUTFELD: And that's a practical use.

BOLLING: And you can defend yourself, which is pretty good.

WILLIAMS: You can defend yourself without a gun.

GUTFELD: Oh, Juan, stop it.

WILLIAMS: Of course you can.

GUTFELD: No, guns -- guns are necessary.

WILLIAMS: We disagree on this.

BOLLING: ... against an intruder with a gun if you don't have a gun. Please explain this to me.

WILLIAMS: What, you don't have a police department in your neighborhood?

GUTFELD: ... the question is in your neighborhood. The whole reason why so many people have guns to begin with is because the police are too far away. It's not in their neighborhoods. Farms and ranches had guns, because it's pointless to call the police, because it would take them an hour before something got to their house.

WILLIAMS: I just -- one last point on this, because yesterday we went around on whether or not to say this guy was a Muslim terrorist. Today we know he was inspired, whatever you want to -- self-radicalization. I would just point out, it's so interesting to me. He was mad, not at the United States; he's mad at Burma for their treatment of a Muslim minority. Why is attacking America -- I have no idea.

GUTFELD: Well, it's because their intent generally doesn't matter. It's the origin of the declaration of the doctrine, that you can go to a heaven and take out as many people as possible. It doesn't matter that the United States happens to be helping Israel or that Burma isn't helping...

GUILFOYLE: And they kill in the name of jihad. So there you go.

PERINO: Can I just add one other thing? It's just that ISIS obviously has shown these radical Islamists have shown that they care so little for their young men. So they are willing to sacrifice them and all the promise that they could actually bring to reforming the Middle East and they basically send them to their deaths.

GUTFELD: They'll go even younger. When they run out of young men and boys...

GUILFOYLE: They did.

PERINO: They have.

GUTFELD: ... they'll use mentally disabled children.

GUILFOYLE: They are investigating this guy to make sure he's even as young as he says he is, because that's another thing. It's easier to get in if you're younger like that, say you're a student, the whole deal.

GUTFELD: All right. Up next, are California and the incoming Trump administration headed for a big showdown over illegal immigration? Some news on that front when "The Five" returns.


GUILFOYLE: President-elect Trump has vowed to crack down on illegal immigration in America, and many sanctuary cities are already gearing up for a fight. Mr. Trump has vowed to strip federal funding from cities like San Francisco, which shields the undocumented from federal immigration agents. San Francisco supervisors about to propose spending $5 million to provide legal representation for illegals facing deportation.

Meanwhile, today, leaders of California's three public university systems sent a joint letter to them, the president-elect, urging him to allow students in the country illegally to continue their education without fear of deportation. This is unbelievable.

OK. So I used to work in San Francisco and lived there and all of the above. And when I worked at the district attorney's office, it was very obvious. San Francisco was a sanctuary city. They would shield anybody who was illegal or undocumented from the federal government to prevent deportation. So it's more of the same. They're taking a step further, Dana. Now they're saying we're actually going to provide you with an attorney, and we're going to fight for you to be able to get your education here, at taxpayers' expense.

PERINO: You know what I think what really needs to happen pretty quickly is President-elect Trump should make his Supreme Court nomination as quickly as soon as he possibly can after he's sworn in as commander in chief, not sending a signal beforehand, because I think the best thing that would happen for the country to get this settled is for San Francisco to do that, a lawsuit to be filed against San Francisco and it to get to the Supreme Court for a decision so that we can actually have some certainty on this issue going forward, because they're not the only city.

It's going to be Chicago, Los Angeles -- Chicago, I think, Mayor Rahm Emanuel has already said that he will do similar. So I think a Supreme Court decision is absolutely essential on this that we know what we're dealing with.

GUILFOYLE: Yes, Rahm Emanuel said never let a good crisis go to waste.

OK. Bolling, what do you think?

BOLLING: So this is how crazy this system is. California now asking for support to not deport as opposed to some people saying, "Hey, don't cut off our support because we're a sanctuary city." So right now, the federal government sends a state, and I guess the states drop it down to municipalities and cities. But they send you money so that you can enforce your borders. So we're already paying them to enforce the law.

They're saying we're violating the law We still want that money now, cities like San Francisco, Chicago are saying not only that. We want more money to make sure we don't deport these people. It's absolute insanity.

Right now, Donald Trump has vowed to deport the two or three million criminal illegals in the country. Those are the first people to go. Then he's got an issue of, who knows, 10, 12 million more. What do you do then? Not a bad idea to create -- to create embassies or safe zones where, if you've been, say, here for five years, you can go over there and apply and it's proven that you've not been in trouble for five years and you say, "Look, I'm going to apply to be able to stay, not for a citizenship, just to be able to stay."

It doesn't help with the influx of people who are going to say, well, now all you can do is get there and stay, but if you're there five years or under five years, then you open yourself to deportation.

GUILFOYLE: You're going to get the endless e-mails. Juan.

WILLIAMS: I see Eric's backpedaling. I'm so interested in this. That's very interesting. So you don't want -- you and Trump no longer just want to throw him out?

BOLLING: No. I think he said just 2 or 3 million illegals...

WILLIAMS: Oh. You know what, just to correct -- just to correct a point, they are saying that, out of their own money, they wouldn't supply in the case of San Francisco -- they would supply money so that there would be lawyers in the courtroom for people who are being deported. So they would have proper representation. I don't see that's so un-American.

BOLLING: What legal case do you have? You came here illegally.

WILLIAMS: That's the point. The point is that's what you said earlier. And it's President Obama's policy, by the way. People who are criminals, throw them out. Nobody has an argument.

The argument is about people who have been here for a long time, people who are law-abiding citizens, who want to work hard, who simply desire to have some stability.

And by the way, let's not forget the rationale for sanctuary cities, which is that it allows for a safer and less criminal environment, because people who are part of that community would no longer feel, "Oh, I can't say anything to the police, because this guy is going to get deported. This woman will be thrown out, and her family will be broken up." No. We want them talking about the sources of crime because it affects us all.

GUTFELD: The rationale obviously gets abused. In sanctuary cities, they're popular among politicians and activists in general. Because nothing -- they're not putting anything on the line. It is easy to support something like this if you yourself are not taking in an illegal immigrant.

So I would -- I would respect the sanctuary cities immensely if the proponents would take in one illegal immigrant in their own home and not just one -- the ones you bring up and the ones that I believe exist, which are good, hard-working people, but they're criminals. If you are a proponent of a sanctuary city and there is an illegal immigrant who is a criminal in your city, it is up to you to house that person in your house.

WILLIAMS: I think the idea is to get rid of the criminals.

GUTFELD: No. The person that -- remember Miss Steinle. That was an illegal immigrant.

WILLIAMS: That guy was a criminal. He should have been gone. That's the guy everybody wants gone.

GUILFOYLE: No, because he wasn't. And it's because he wasn't found. He was let back in to reoffend, and everyone is protecting him under an umbrella. And this guy went and murdered this woman.

WILLIAMS: I think everybody agrees, get the criminals out.

GUILFOYLE: Yes, but guess what? The president-elect can defund some of these federal programs and hold back funding...

WILLIAMS: I don't know about that.

GUILFOYLE: All right. Let's talk to the Supreme Court.

WILLIAMS: Yes, let's talk about that.

GUILFOYLE: Talk about it. Next -- what?

GUTFELD: Nothing.

GUILFOYLE: Should America ban any burning of the U.S. flag. Our president-elect thinks so. His new tweet has a lot of people talking, and we're going to talk. Yes, yes. That's when "The Five" returns.


WILLIAMS: It's all right for Americans to do a lot of things, including burning our own flag, if we want to. Our president-elect thinks it should be a crime. In a tweet this morning, Mr. Trump wrote, quote, "Nobody should be allowed to burn the American flag. If they do, there must be consequences, perhaps loss of citizenship or year in jail," end quote.

Now, in 1989 the Supreme Court ruled flag burning is protected by the First Amendment. And back in 1958, it rejected the practice of stripping U.S. citizenship as a form of criminal punishment.

Something to note here, Hillary Clinton once pushed for a law to criminalize flag burning and that law, or effort of the law, that legislation, included a punishment of jail time for offenders.

So Greg, I'll let you kick us off here, what do you think? I know you have some libertarian instincts.

GUTFELD: Well, OK, it's a problem with our culture that we celebrate actions against America, whether it's burning a flag or lionizing Fidel Castro. It's because we're the evil glut.

However, as is probably more pessimistic view of things, you can afford to have a debate over flag burning when you don't have any problems at all, but we shouldn't be having this debate. We have the rise of Islamic terror, which is focusing on, you know, an existential destruction of the earth. We have a rise in automation that is responsible for what, 85 percent of loss of jobs.

We have artificial intelligence, and once it surpasses human intelligence, we are screwed if we don't know what to do. So these are the kinds of debates we have when the world crumbles. When the world ends, we'll be like thank God we had that debate over flag burning that we have every four years. We seem to have the same thing, and it just shows you the power of "FOX & Friends."

And it shows you the power of "FOX & Friends."

WILLIAMS: I was going to talk...

GUTFELD: "FOX & Friends" drives the news.

WILLIAMS: I was going to talk to Dana about just that question. So Dana, here he is tweeting again, and he makes news while he's tweeting earlier in the week. He was tweeting...

GUTFELD: The news loop.

WILLIAMS: Now he's tweeting about people should be punished for the flag. What do you think? Is this a good, effective way for the president to communicate? President-elect?

PERINO: Obviously very effective; effective enough to help him win the presidency, which wasn't the only reason. But yes, he knows how to drive news.

And there's been a big debate amongst reporters that I was reading on "Reliable Sources," about whether every time he tweets they should cover it, and should they have a pact to cover it or not. Like, it doesn't matter. He's going to do it. And if it's newsy, it will be covered.

I think that our Constitution is strong and sacred, even more so than the symbol of it -- of our country, the flag. And I think that this is fairly settled law, but understandably, people think it's reprehensible and wrong.

WILLIAMS: Right. And most Americans think it's reprehensible and wrong. Do you think that they should be punished? Do you agree with the president-elect?

BOLLING: No. I'm also a First Amendment addict, but I'll also point out that Hillary Clinton didn't -- wasn't in favor of punishing people for burning the flag. She co-authored a bill on -- its called the Flag Burning Bill. But it didn't have anything to do with flag burning. It had to do with whether or not you'd incite violence. If you incite violence by what you do, then you should be punished for that.

She specifically voted against punishing for flag burning. That's been going around. That's been going back and forth.

WILLIAMS: So the "FOX & Friends" segment, Kimberly, was about Hampshire College, which puts the flag down. And some people thought that was insulting, that they would lower the flag. They thought it might be because Trump was elected. How do you feel about this?

GUILFOYLE: Look, I mean, I love the flag. I love this country. You know, I come from an immigrant background, and so to me I would never, ever want to see that and probably wouldn't react too well to seeing somebody do it. Put it that way.

So I agree with his sentiment. But as a lawyer, I understand that it's constitutionally protected under the First Amendment and the Supreme Court, as recently as 1990, you know, upheld the right to burn a flag. But if you really hate this country that much...

BOLLING: Get out.

GUTFELD: There's also other punishments. You know? You ostracize people, if somebody is, like, burning a flag, that person's an a-hole, and you know he's an a-hole. And it's actually helpful, because it's an a-hole identifier.

GUILFOYLE: They know who they are out there, Greg.

GUTFELD: They're telling everybody who they are. It's actually helpful to know who they are.

PERINO: Yes. So they can be ridiculed.


WILLIAMS: You know, you side with me in this segment, because you guys were so rational. I don't get it.

"One More Thing" coming right up.


BOLLING: Time for "One More Thing." Dana.

PERINO: OK. So today is called Giving Tuesday, and I have a new video on Facebook. You can watch the whole thing. It's based on Dave Sharpe's experience. Dave Sharpe is the founder of Companions for Heroes, and he's founded the organization after his experience when he returned from fighting in the war on terror, and proceeds from "Let Me Tell You About Jasper" are going to help fund Companions for Heroes. It matches up rescue dogs with wounded heroes.

Here's a very quick look.


DAVE SHARPE, FOUNDER, COMPANIONS FOR HEROES: I had a purpose in this world. God gave me my angel. And I always say that, you know, the Lord gives us angels in so many shapes, sizes and forms, and this, to me, it was -- it was Cheyenne, my little typical rescue.


PERINO: So Cheyenne, that was his dog there. She, unfortunately, passed away a couple years ago. But Dave went on not only to found the organization but to become a loving father of two. So congratulations to him.

And I'm also going to be in Texas this weekend, six stops, two days.


PERINO: That's high energy.

GUILFOYLE: That's beast mode.

PERINO: Hope you can meet us.

BOLLING: Let's get Greg in there.

GUTFELD: All right, everybody. Very depressing news here.

GUILFOYLE: Oh, my God.


GUTFELD: Greg's Robot News.


GUTFELD: All right. The world is over.

Google's artificial intelligence company called Deep Mind are giving robots the ability to dream. What they're going to do is they teach robots to play old video games and then helps them -- educate them on the newer video games by creating sophisticated memories and dreams.

Why is this bad? Because all of our life we had to deal with co-workers and spouses telling us about our dream -- about their dreams. How monotonous it is in the elevator. Now your automated washing machine is going to go, "Hey, Greg, I had this crazy dream where I made out with the toaster and Madonna was on a unicorn."


GUTFELD: I don't want to hear that.

GUILFOYLE: You know what?

GUTFELD: I don't need to hear it, Kimberly. I don't need to hear it from you or my washing machine.

BOLLING: You're up, K.G.

GUILFOYLE: I mean, I told you this was going to happen one day. It's happening quicker than we thought. Cuckoo! All right.

OK. Now, on a very serious note, I recently had the great honor of participating in Culture City's Love Without Words, a national campaign that encourages acceptance and support for people with autism. Take a look.


GUILFOYLE: I'm Kimberly Guilfoyle, and I show love without words by showing everyone they are special. Join me and Culture City in showing how you show love without words.


PERINO: Very nice.

GUILFOYLE: And I want to say a special thank you to my friends, T.K. Barber and his wife, Tracy, for including me in this very inspirational cause. I love being a part of it. And you can find out more on my Facebook page.

BOLLING: Congratulations. Very nice.

Some very, very -- I've got to do this one, Juan. I hope it doesn't eat into your time. Some very, very sad news. Late last night near Medellin, Colombia, the plane carrying the Brazilian soccer team crashed, 71 people perished. Six people survived, but on that plane, six FOX Sports Brazil colleagues were on that plane, as well. We want to say -- send out a heartfelt sorry and prayer for everyone involved in that crash. Six -- again, six of our colleagues died, perished in that plane crash last night.

GUILFOYLE: FOX Sports, God bless them and their families.

BOLLING: Yes. Juan, you're up.

WILLIAMS: As Dana mentioned today is hashtag #GivingTuesday. It's an idea that started right here in New York City five years ago at the 92nd Street Y. It's a logical addition to the craziness of Black Friday and Cyber Monday.

Giving Tuesday is always held Tuesday after Thanksgiving. The idea is for all of us to be generous with those in need and make charitable contributions a regular part of the holiday season. Last year, $117 million raised for charities. More than 70 countries around the globe. If you go online, please do it, #GivingTuesday.

BOLLING: "Special Report" next.

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