This is a rush transcript from "Fox News Sunday," October 23, 2016. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
CHRIS WALLACE, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: I’m Chris Wallace.
With just over two weeks until Election Day, can Donald Trump close the gap after the final debate?
WALLACE: One of the prides of this country is the peaceful transition of power. Are you saying you're not prepared now to commit to that principle?
DONALD TRUMP, R-PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: What I’m saying is that I will tell you at the time. I'll keep you in suspense.
WALLACE: Today, Trump campaign manager Kellyanne Conway on Trump's allegations the election is rigged.
HILLARY CLINTON, D-PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: What he said tonight is part of his whole effort to blame somebody else for his campaign and for where he stands in this election.
WALLACE: And Clinton campaign manager Robby Mook on new WikiLeaks revelations.
Plus, a debate between former House Speaker Newt Gingrich and Congressman Xavier Becerra, a Clinton backer, on some of the issues we didn't get specifics on at this week's debate. Then, things get even nastier at a charity dinner.
TRUMP: Here she is tonight in public pretending not to hate Catholics.
CLINTON: Donald really is as healthy as a horse, you know, the one Vladimir Putin rides around on.
WALLACE: We'll ask our Sunday panel where the race goes from here.
All right now on "Fox News Sunday."
WALLACE: And hello again from Fox News in Washington.
With 16 days to go, Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton are entering the final phase of this campaign. With the debates finally over, both are barn-storming through swing states this weekend.
Today, we'll speak with both sides' campaign managers, Robby Mook with the Clinton campaign. But first, Kellyanne Conway live in Trump Tower.
Kellyanne, you're a professional pollster. So, let's start there with the numbers, which quite frankly don't look very good for Donald Trump at this point. Let me put some of them up on the screen. In a four-way race, he now trails Clinton by more than five points. Among women, he trails by 15 points. And that's important because women are voting early in big numbers in Florida and North Carolina.
Kellyanne, how do you turn this around in two weeks?
KELLYANNE CONWAY, DONALD TRUMP CAMPAIGN MANAGER: Thanks for having me, Chris.
So, by taking the case directly to the voters. That's where he is. He's in three states yesterday. He'll be in Florida for a few days. And we look at some of the early voting returns in places like Iowa and Ohio, and we're doing much better than previous candidates, in large part because we invested in the absentee ballot early voting procedures.
And also, I think he does it in a way that he gave the speech in Gettysburg yesterday. He puts out that nine or ten-point plan, has some really significant measures with teeth to have lifetime bans on lobbying for our nation to be working in his White House, term limits for members of Congress, and he’ll drain the swamp --
WALLACE: Kellyanne, didn’t he -- didn't he step on his serious agenda for the first hundred days by beginning the speech saying that he's going to sue all the women who have accused him?
CONWAY: No, he's just trying to defend himself against false accusers, as he said. He said those incidents never happened, yet they're covered in the media every single day. He can't get fair coverage.
Maybe not here, Chris, but he can't get fair coverage of his substantive points in many corners. And yet, they imbue credibility to others automatically.
We like the fact that in three major national polls, he's leading Hillary Clinton now by a few points. And we like the fact that in the eight swing states where President Obama beat Governor Romney in 2012, we are either ahead, within the margin of error, or win striking distance. So, we’ll be visiting all of the states --
WALLACE: Let me just pick up on that, because I want to look at the electoral map, which doesn't look good at this point. Here are the swing states that your campaign has long identified as must wins. Ohio, basically tied. North Carolina, Clinton up three. Florida, Clinton up four. And then, there are the flip states. The blue state of Pennsylvania, which you are hoping to flip to Trump, Clinton is up six, and the traditionally red state of Arizona, Clinton now up 1 1/2.
Question, where is the realistic path to 270 electoral votes?
CONWAY: She's still under 50 everywhere, and she spent $56 million in ads, mostly negative, politics of personal destruction ads against Donald Trump just in September, Chris. So, with all that on the field, we're just starting to increase some of our investments on the air. You'll see Mr. Trump there.
So, the fact it's been three points, four points, six points is what can turn around in these next two weeks. Our path is Florida, Ohio, Iowa, North Carolina. You add Nevada, you protect Arizona and Georgia, you look at New Hampshire and Maine, too, where the congressional districts there are split in the way they award their electoral votes. And then, we're also going to continue to visit Colorado, Virginia, Pennsylvania.
So, there are several different -- a poll came out yesterday showing us six down in Michigan. We haven't even been there. We're not up on the air there.
And so, the fact is that this race is not over. Many in the media want to say it's over for the 12th time, they're counting Donald Trump out. And I’m telling you that in some of these polls, if you're only using listed sample and you’re identifying people who voted Republican in 2012 or voted Democrat in 2012, and you’re not really bringing in people who haven't voted in a long time, the lapse voters or the first-time voters who are truly enthusiastic about Donald Trump as an outsider trying to really shake up the system. And there are many people like that.
He's not -- we're not giving up. We know we can win this. And we are certainly not exceeding to the same chattering class that's been wrong about Donald Trump for about a year and a half.
WALLACE: There are suggestions you have grown uncomfortable with Donald Trump and his campaign. From our personal experience, you were pulled twice from this show around the time that there were all these allegations about women saying that he had groped them.
You've also been active on social media. I want to put this up. You retweeted this comment from reporter Robert Costa, The Washington Post, at the debate, "Bad hombres, Trump being Trump. Trump's other answers, Conway-esque."
Why would you want to retweet that?
CONWAY: I retweeted it because I was so excited that Donald Trump for the first time in the 20-some years I’ve been working on pro-life messaging actually in front of tens of millions of people worldwide gave the most impassioned defense of life that I’ve ever heard from a Republican presidential candidate. It was amazing to hear him say --
WALLACE: Yes, but basically, what Costa was saying was the bad stuff was Trump and the good stuff was you.
CONWAY: That's not true. He made one comment. It was early in the debate, Chris, if you remember. And so, the Conway-esque stuff, which was pro-life messaging I’ve been working on for decades. If you never get frankly people who say they’re much more life than Donald Trump -- Donald Trump used to be pro-choice. Like many Americans, he's changed his views, based on personal experience as he’s explained. And there he was on the stage with you, doing two things nobody had ever done, and it is Conway-esque.
One is saying, "I’m pro-life, I will appoint pro-life judges." And then taking the case right to Hillary Clinton that her and her party are for abortion, anyone, anytime, anywhere. They're incredibly extreme -- sex selection abortion, fetal pain abortion, taxpayer funded abortion, and, of course, late-term abortion.
Donald Trump said on live TV in front of you that Hillary Clinton would rip the baby from the womb, that it's OK to have a late-term abortion. She had a terrible defense to that, that somehow it's because of the life of the mother. And people say, well, there aren't that many.
There are 12,000 a year. Americans ought to know that's part of being pro-choice. So, I was very excited. Let me tell you something. A lot of Republicans just hide under the desk hoping the abortion shrapnel won't hit them and there was none other than a Manhattan billionaire giving impassioned defense of pro-life. It’s as simple as that.
I think people read a little too much into it. And, frankly, a lot of people lack my sense of humor on some of these other tweets. But I -- but Donald Trump and I both have a great sense of humor and a wonderful relationship. I’ve never been pulled from a Sunday show. I'll just leave it at that.
WALLACE: Well, just real quickly, the fact was we were told as recently as like a Saturday night that you were going to be doing our show at the height of the whole scandal. And then, suddenly, Rudy Giuliani showed up the next morning. And you don't look like Rudy Giuliani.
CONWAY: I love the mayor. It doesn't mean I was pulled.
But in any event, if you see me sitting here as a campaign manager, then that's where my heart and my head are. And, you know, a lot of things go into being this campaign manager, a lot of people here relying upon me as their leader -- a lot of our state directors, our ground game, our field operation. I work closely with Chairman Priebus and the RNC.
And we just -- you know, Donald Trump and I have a great relationship. I think he's unfairly maligned by many people who should really look at the full measure of the man. He's employed thousands of women at the Trump Corporation.
WALLACE: Kellyanne --
CONWAY: He's the first Republican to elevate a woman as a campaign manager presidentially. That says an awful lot about him.
WALLACE: Kellyanne, we’re going to have to leave it there. Thank you so much for joining us today.
CONWAY: Thank you.
WALLACE: Now to Clinton campaign manager Robby Mook. Robby, welcome back to FOX NEWS SUNDAY.
ROBBY MOOK, HILLARY CLINTON CAMPAIGN MANAGER: Thanks more having me.
WALLACE: We just talked to Kellyanne Conway about how strong you guys appear to be in the polls. At this point, are you looking past 270 electoral votes to try to run up the score, one, so you can say Clinton won a mandate, and two, to try to win a Democratic House and Senate?
MOOK: Well, Chris, every presidential campaign has to work to get to that 270 number. And we're not taking anything for granted at all. So, that's still our focus and our goal.
Secretary Clinton at the beginning of this campaign said she wanted to help all candidates up and down the ballot. So, we're running a coordinated campaign, working hard with gubernatorial, Senate, and House candidates. But we're not -- you know, this is not over yet.
And battleground states are called battleground states for a reason. That's because they're going to be close. We expect them all to be won or lost by a point or two. And we're working very hard on the ground to turn out the vote.
WALLACE: But aren't you widening the map in these final two weeks? We see you going into traditionally Republican states like Indiana and Missouri and even Arizona. I mean, you are widening the map, clearly. Is that at least in part to try to push back in case Trump tries to claim that this election is rigged?
MOOK: Well, every campaign wants to win by the biggest margin possible. So that would be great. The reason that we've gone into Arizona is that it has come into play. Donald Trump's divisive rhetoric, the shameful things he said about POWs and specifically about John McCain, have put that state into play. We think we can win it, so we're doing everything we can.
There are important Senate and governors' races in Indiana and Missouri. We've put in some resources to help there. But we're not running away with this. This race is going to be competitive up until the end. What I find very encouraging is we have seen first a record in voter registration. Over 200 million people across this country are now registered to vote, which is great.
And we're seeing record turnout numbers. Just yesterday in Nevada, we saw record turnout in Clark County for the first day of early voting. We're seeing eye-popping vote by mail application numbers.
WALLACE: And let me just ask quickly about that. You know, we act as if this all happens on Election Day, November 8th. You've banked a lot of votes already. And we see women turning out in large numbers in North Carolina and Florida. Do you have a sense of what kind of strength you're in at this point?
MOOK: We feel very, very good about what we've seen so far. We predict that this is going to be the biggest election in American history. More people are going to turn out than ever before.
And we're encouraged also by who is turning out. We are very proud of the ground game we've built. We see it delivering the results we expected. And as you touched upon, we believe over 40 percent of voters in the background states are going to turn out before Election Day.
So, this election is happening as we speak. And that ground game is there, pushing our people out.
WALLACE: I want to take you back to a question I asked Secretary Clinton about the Clinton Foundation during the debate, a question I have to say I don't think she really answered. Here she is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: Why isn't what happened and what went on between you and the Clinton Foundation, why isn't it what Mr. Trump calls pay to play?
CLINTON: Well, everything I did as secretary of state was in furtherance of our country's interests and our values. The State Department has said that. I think that's been proven. But I am happy -- in fact, I’m thrilled to talk about the Clinton Foundation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: And then she went on and I had to interrupt her.
There was a new revelation this week that Hillary Clinton was involved in trying to get a $12 million donation to the foundation from the king of Morocco. Why wasn't that classic pay to play?
MOOK: Well, first of all, it's not news that the Clinton Global Initiative had their meeting in Morocco. Everybody knew that. It's also not news that Hillary Clinton didn't go to it. That was in the e-mails as well.
So, there's nothing new here. And Donald Trump is trying to attack Secretary Clinton on this because, as you said, he's down in the polls. He's struggling. And as Secretary Clinton said, we're glad to put her foundation up against his any day.
WALLACE: But, Robby, there is some new stuff. We have gotten e-mails that indicate what was going on. This was happening in 2015, just as she was about to announce her campaign for president, and the e-mails show -- and I’m going to go through some of them. You were not happy at all the idea of this meeting and her going there at that particular point.
January 18th e-mail from Huma Abedin to you, "It will break a lot of china to back out now when we have so many opportunities to do it in the past few months. She," Clinton, "created this mess, and she knows it." Same day you write, "HRC is still considering."
March 24th, you to John Podesta, "Huma said it was still happening then said she's going to cancel at the last minute, but it sounded a little tentative. Just sounded more up in the air than I thought it was."
You didn't want this huge contribution from the king of Morocco just as Clinton was announcing for president.
MOOK: Well, I didn't want anything on her schedule that was going to distract from the campaign. Again, the Clinton Global Initiative had this meeting scheduled in Morocco --
WALLACE: But it was the big money from a foreign person to the foundation at the time she's running for president.
MOOK: This was, as you can see in those e-mails, a scheduling matter. We didn't want her going overseas. I didn't want her going overseas before the campaign was kicking off.
But again, this is -- these are stolen documents, stolen by the Russians. It's now confirmed from John Podesta, being put out for exactly this purpose.
WALLACE: Can I speak to that?
Well, let me just speak to that, though, because, you know, the Trump tax returns were stolen as well when they were mailed to The New York Times. You guys didn't object to that. In fact, you jumped all over them.
MOOK: Well, we don't know where those tax returns came from.
WALLACE: Well, they weren’t -- they were clearly stolen.
MOOK: We don't know and you have to --
WALLACE: Do you think Trump had given them?
MOOK: I don't know. I don't know how they got to The New York Times.
WALLACE: I guess what I’m saying, if that -- if we're looking at the fruits of that theft, and I will call it a theft, it's fair to look at the fruits of your theft.
MOOK: Well, I think what's particularly disturbing in this situation is that the intelligence community has now confirmed that John Podesta's e-mails and the DNC e-mails were stolen by the Russians.
WALLACE: I know about the Russian connection. I’m talking about the $12 million from the king of Morocco and the fact that this continues to sort of show the line between private and public and Hillary Clinton and the Clinton Foundation.
MOOK: I think we’ve got to look at what decisions were made. There was a meeting in Morocco. Secretary Clinton decided not to go, focus on her campaign here. And again, we're having --
WALLACE: But then Bill Clinton and Chelsea Clinton went. Correct?
MOOK: My understanding is they did go. But she did not. Again, this is the discussion the Russians want us to be having. They stole this information. They're selectively leaking.
I can't even verify any of the information that you have there. We simply don't have enough time as a campaign --
WALLACE: I promise you, if these were not true, you'd tell us.
MOOK: And we are trying to go through some of them as we can. But we don't have time to go through them all.
And again, this is a distraction put in place by the Russian government at the suggestion and encouragement of Donald Trump. That should be a chilling fact for every single American.
WALLACE: Robby, thank you. Thanks for your time today.
Coming up, there were some key issues I didn't get to with Trump and Clinton Wednesday night. We'll continue that debate with two of their top supporters, next.
WALLACE: A look outside the Beltway at Gettysburg, Pennsylvania, where this weekend Donald Trump outlined the agenda for his first hundred days, if he's elected.
Well, this is the book that I brought to Wednesday’s debate filled with hundreds of hours of research. But we didn't get to all the topics and figuring good debate topics are a terrible thing to waste, we want to continue the conversation now with former Speaker Newt Gingrich, one of Trump’s advisers, and author of the new book, "Treason", and key Clinton advocate, Democratic Congressman Xavier Becerra.
Gentlemen, welcome back to "Fox News Sunday."
One subject that we discussed in the debate was immigration, where Trump and Clinton are sharply divided. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Well, first of all, she wants to give amnesty, which is a disaster and very unfair to all of the people that are waiting on line for many, many years. We need strong borders.
CLINTON: I don't want to see the deportation force that Donald has talked about in action in our country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: But we didn't get to the issue which I was planning to of sanctuary cities, cities that limit their assistance to federal immigration officials on people who are in this country illegally. Donald Trump would cut off federal subsidies to those cities. Hillary Clinton supports those cities. Debate your differences.
REP. XAVIER BECERRA, D-CALIFORNIA: Chris, I will simply say that Hillary Clinton has a record when it comes to tough border enforcement and enforcement in our cities as well.
WALLACE: But I’m talking about sanctuary cities.
BECERRA: But sanctuary cities don't stop you from going after the criminals, the folks that are trying to do us harm. Sanctuary cities simply says we're not going to focus on going after the women in the grocery store or picking up their kids from school. We should be focused on going after those who are trying to do us harm.
And that's all the sanctuary cities talk about. Going after sanctuary cities, as Republicans have, would deny our local law enforcement the resources they need to actually continue to go after criminals on the streets. And that's why many of us have opposed the Republicans' efforts to try to undo funding for cities that have sanctuary city policies to protect women and children.
WALLACE: Speaker Gingrich?
NEWT GINGRICH, R-FORMER HOUSE SPEAKER: Well, I mean, first of all, since Secretary Clinton basically doesn't intend to enforce the law nationally, why should she care if cities enforce the law? She has said openly that she had -- her dream was of a western hemisphere without borders. In that circumstance, sanctuary cities wouldn't need to exist because you have a sanctuary country.
There's a huge difference between Trump's desire to control the border, her desire to open the border. And I think the sanctuary city issue is just part of that.
But my impression -- I mean, Congressman Becerra knows a great deal more about this than I do. My impression is, in a number of cities, they will not turn people over to the federal government, even if they're picked up for criminal violations.
WALLACE: Let me talk about one specific case that got a lot of attention. That, of course, was the case of Kate Steinle in your state of California, who was shot to death last year in San Francisco. Her accused killer had been deported five times, but he was back in the U.S.
BECERRA: And he does not qualify for sanctuary city policy. That’s the point.
GINGRICH: But he did.
BECERRA: No, he wasn't. He escaped -- he was able to get away and then he was able to get ahold of a weapon. But he was under -- he was not under some sanctuary city policy. By the way, open borders was not a reference to immigration by Secretary Clinton. It was a reference to energy policy.
WALLACE: Wait, wait. I got to stop you there. That was one of the -- I wish I'd had back in the debate. She talked about a common market with open borders and open trade. There's no such thing as an electrical common market.
BECERRA: She talked about the fact our energy policy must go beyond our own borders because otherwise --
WALLACE: No, that wasn't what she said. She talked about a hemispheric common market. Nobody talks about common market --
BECERRA: Chris, you and I and Newt can go ahead and decide what we think she said, but she’s the one that told us what she said. She said it.
GINGRICH: The actual phrase is interesting. The actual phrase is open trade and open borders. Now, in that setting --
BECERRA: In reference (ph) to continue to energy policy.
GINGRICH: But in any event, to go back to the case, as I understand it, the city of San Francisco didn't turn this guy over. There's a piece on San Diego local TV that runs like seven minutes covering the border right now. They don't turn people back. They take them to a trolley car in San Diego.
People actually run up to the police. One guy who's a border patrolman says the guy runs up and says, "I really have a bad heart condition, can you put me in the hospital?"
WALLACE: All right. I also wanted to talk to Trump and Clinton about Obamacare, but somehow we got sidetracked into a debate about TPP and dump Chinese steel. So, let's talk about Obamacare.
Speaker Gingrich, for all the criticism of the Affordable Care Act, the fact is that 20 million Americans who didn't have health insurance coverage now have health insurance coverage. What happens to those 20 million people under Trump's repeal and replace?
GINGRICH: First of all, most of those people are in Medicaid. They're not in insurance programs that are private. Second, a lot of people are in insurance programs and are going to be out of them by next year.
WALLACE: But they're only in Medicaid because Medicaid was expanded under this.
GINGRICH: So, Medicaid is expanded. That (INAUDIBLE) simple government program to expand.
WALLACE: So, Trump would continue with the expanded Medicaid?
GINGRICH: I suspect nobody will be kicked off in the transition. But the people that are going to be kicked off now are people who cannot afford the scale of the increase in premiums and the scale of the increase in deductions. This is the unaffordable care act. It's a joke to say it's the Affordable Care Act.
WALLACE: But what's the plan to protect those people?
GINGRICH: I think the plan will probably involve a fairly large tax credit to enable them to buy private insurance.
BECERRA: Chris, there we go. Six years after we passed the Affordable Care Act and 20 million people now have coverage, this is the plan. It's not a plan.
Suspicions about what you think will happen aren't going to get people access to a doctor or a hospital. People used to go broke having to file bankruptcy because they had taken their son or daughter to a doctor or a hospital. That's no longer the case for people who have insurance. Twenty million people today have the security of knowing they don't have to wait until their child is so sick they can go to the emergency room.
WALLACE: But, Congressman Becerra, you would certainly have to agree, Bill Clinton said Obamacare right now does have serious problems, big insurance companies are pulling out of a lot of states. There's almost no choice in a lot of the markets. Premiums are going up an average of 9 percent.
But in some places, 20 percent, 30 percent, 40 percent. Secretary Clinton is saying let's let people under 55 buy into Medicare and let’s put out a public option. So, it seems that her answer is let's let government have a bigger role or maybe the role in health care.
BECERRA: Well, remember, what she's said is we can make improvements on what has already given 20 million Americans coverage. We have more Americans covered today than ever before. And what we can do is continue to make progress based on a system that relies on the private sector, not on our government.
WALLACE: She's talking about a public option.
BECERRA: For those states, there are many states where the private sector is not going in rural areas especially where a public option absolutely would make a difference because it gives Americans more choice. But rather than throw away everything you've got and go back to the days of pre-existing conditions when you could not get coverage, let's --
WALLACE: Let me wrangle this one.
GINGRICH: First of all, I think the term that President Clinton used was crazy. He said this is a crazy scheme.
WALLACE: Well, in fairness, he was only talking about specific problems there. Not the whole thing.
GINGRICH: Right. But the specific problem in the end is you have a program that's not affordable. There's not enough money. You have insurance companies dropping out. Hillary in one of her secret speeches said she really likes the Canadian model, which is a government-run system.
BECERRA: Newt, what’s the plan? What's the plan?
GINGRICH: I think the plan has to be to go back to making it possible to have competitive choices, and the plan has to be frankly to take a lot of the cost out of health care.
BECERRA: OK, how? It's great to say, but we have to do it. Show me how you do it. Republicans have six years. They haven't come up with a plan.
GINGRICH: I think the first easy step will be a big war politically. It's malpractice insurance. Look at the amount of defensive medicine practice in this country. It drives up the cost.
What you're trying to do is say we can have an endless increase in cost but it will be affordable --
BECERRA: So, you wait until the doctor has done something wrong to sue for malpractice. That doesn't get you -- that doesn’t make you well.
WALLACE: That's true. It doesn't make you well.
Finally, Speaker Gingrich, running out of time here, you've been speaking recently about big Trump and little Trump. And big Trump, you say, is a man who's espousing historic change. And little Trump, you say, is, your words, petty and pathetic.
Can we afford to have a president with such a split personality?
GINGRICH: Look, of course, you can. I think we had a number of presidents who had interesting challenges in their personality. But the question is, I’m willing to concede that Trump on occasion is crass, but I’d like my opponents to concede that Hillary on occasion is corrupt.
I mean, you have a candidate for president who under any reasonable standard would have been indicted. You look at what just happened to General Cartwright. You have a candidate -- you just raised this with Robby Mook, you have a candidate for president who is cheerfully dealing with foreign governments for $12 million donations. She's surrounded by staff who are basically saying take the money. That's what's going to walk in the White House.
So, Trump is not perfect, but she sure ain't perfect either, and she's a much greater threat to our system than Donald Trump is.
WALLACE: Speaker Gingrich, Congressman Becerra, we're going to have to leave it there. Thank you, both. And it’s always good to moderate your -- I think I had a little more control here. I think we got some answers, you know?
Like I said, debate questions are a terrible thing to waste. Thank you, both.
BECERRA: Thank you.
WALLACE: Up next, we'll bring in our Sunday group to discuss the state of the race after the final debate. Plus, what would you like to ask the panel about Trump's refusal to say he'll respect the results of the election? Just go to Facebook or Twitter @FoxNewsSunday and we may use your question on the air.
WALLACE: Coming up, first Trump said he'll keep us in suspense. Then --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I will totally accept the results of this great and historic presidential election -- if I win.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: We'll ask our Sunday group about that, next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I ask a simple question. She's been doing this for 30 years. Why the hell didn't you do it over the last 15, 20 years?
CLINTON: On the day when I was in the situation room monitoring the raid that brought Osama bin Laden to justice, he was hosting "The Celebrity Apprentice."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump arguing at Wednesday's debate who has more valuable experience to be our next president.
And it's time now for our Sunday group. GOP strategist Karl Rove, Fox News political analyst Juan Williams, bob Woodward of The Washington Post, and Kimberley Strassel from The Wall Street Journal.
Well, Karl, the conventional wisdom is that Trump was having a pretty good debate until he refused to say that he would accept the results of the election. Do you agree with both parts of that premise?
KARL ROVE, FORMER BUSH WHITE HOUSE ADVISOR: I -- I do because, look, what matters is not just simply the debate, but the aftermath of the debate. And he guaranteed that all that good work that he did in prosecuting the case that he was the agent of change and she was the status quo was wiped out in the controversy that -- that came as a result of his answer to that question. And it -- and it continued for several days more. I mean, the -- the next day he compounds it by saying at a rally, I believe in North Carolina, I'll -- I’ll accept the outcome if I win, guaranteeing that the story would go on for yet another day.
WALLACE: And -- and why is that such a big deal? Because people are saying, well, look, in 2000, in which you were familiar with, and -- and allegations of fraud, what -- why is it such a big deal way in advance of president -- or a presidential candidate saying, I -- I -- no, I don't commit to respecting the results?
ROVE: Because as long as we've had our republic, we have had a peaceful transition of power. Now, there -- there have been moments of acrimony and division, 1876, 2000. But we have had this great tradition of the peaceful transition of power.
Now, look, I want to say something about the hypocrisy of some Democrats on this. The elect -- the night of the debate, one of the most ardent voices on this was the Reverend Jesse Jackson, the ever valuable (ph), ever heard from Jesse Jackson, who said, how dare he do this. Well, he was the guy who even after the Supreme Court acted in 2000 and -- and -- and -- and ended the election controversy said Bush is not the legitimately elected president of the United States. I would remind people it was the Democratic House leader, Dick Gephardt, who refused to say Bush was the -- was the legitimately elected president of the United States, even in December of 2000. And we have dead-enders like Paul Begala and other who still go around and say Bush was not the legitimately elected president. So Democrats ought to be a little careful before they sort of evolpe (ph) themselves in hypocrisy.
WALLACE: (INAUDIBLE) the dead-enders. The image of Paul Begala coming out of a cave in the Philippines somewhere.
ROVE: Exactly. Exactly.
WALLACE: All right, we asked you for questions for the panel and we got a bunch on this topic. And especially the coverage of Trump's answer. Philip tweeted this. "Considering the DNC history of voter fraud schemes, isn't it wise for Trump to wait for the election results to be verified?"
Kim, how do you answer Philip?
KIMBERLEY STRASSEL, THE WALL STREET JOURNAL: You know, I think this argument that Trump is making is -- is also a mistake, that there is widespread voter fraud, that this is rigged. It's a very dangerous argument to make. I mean there is always some amount of fraud out there. There -- we can't ever be perfectly certain with elections. But to go that far, you're suggesting that there's the giant plot to stop him from becoming president. And -- and it -- and it goes along with the not accepting peaceful transition of power.
That all being said, I think that Trump is on to something with his broader claim about the system being rigged. Not from an electoral perspective, but this is something a lot of Americans really do feel. You know, they look out there, they -- they see an Obamacare system in which they're doubling their premiums, but Congress doesn't have to take part. They see an IRS that has never held accountable for targeting tens of thousands of Americans. They see a Hillary Clinton FBI probe in which special deals are cut and she gets treated differently than any other corporate executive in which something likes would have happened. So to the extent he's now making that a theme in his campaign, I don't go so far as the electoral issue, but the rigging resonates.
WALLACE: Then there are the allegations about the Clinton Foundation and pay to play, which I asked Secretary Clinton about in the debate, and she turned into an attack on the Trump Foundation.
But, Bob, I want to go back to the conversation I was having with Robby Mook before. When -- when you see what seems to be clear evidence that Clinton Foundation donors were being treated differently than non-donors in terms of access, when you see this new -- new revelation about the $12 million deal between Hillary Clinton, the foundation, and the king of Morocco, are voters right to be troubled by this?
BOB WOODWARD, THE WASHINGTON POST: I -- yes, it's a -- it’s corrupt. It's -- it’s a scandal. And she didn't answer your question at all. And she turned to embrace the good work that the Clinton Foundation has done. And she has a case there. But the mixing of speech fees, the Clinton Foundation, and actions by the State Department, which she ran, are all intertwined and it's corrupt. You know, I mean, you can't just say it's unsavory. But there's no formal investigation going on now, and there are outs that they have.
But the election isn't going to be decided on that. I mean Karl was making the point about this, I'm not going to observe the result of the election. I mean that's -- that’s absurd. I mean it has no consequence. If Trump loses, they're not going to let him in the White House. He’s not going to have a transition team. And -- and to focus on that, I think, is wrong. I think the issue is, what's going to be the aftermath of this campaign. Can somebody govern in --
WALLACE: We’re going to -- we're going to talk about that in the next segment.
WALLACE: But I want to bring Juan in because we learned from -- from e-mails from the -- and these were e-mails that the Republican National Committee got through the Freedom of Information Act. These aren’t the hacked e-mails. This isn't the fruit of Russia trying to undermine our election. That foundation donors seeking government grants for Haiti relief were being treated differently, being considered separately from non-donors. Does that trouble you?
JUAN WILLIAMS, FOX NEWS POLITICAL ANALYST: Sure it would. But, I mean, the fact is, in that case, which has been cited by Mike Pence -- in fact, what the State Department officials said is, hey, some of these people are friends of the Clintons. But, guess what, the bottom line, they didn't get the contracts for Haiti. But to your larger --
WALLACE: Some -- some of them did.
WILLIAMS: Yes, but it's very few. So it’s not the case that play --
WALLACE: Well, I know but did -- but any --
WALLACE: The Clintons were giving (ph) these contracts, which is the heart of the suggestion.
But let me just say, when you're talking politically, we’re two weeks out from the election, is trust and honesty a vulnerability for Hillary Clinton? I don't think there’s any question. I think it stirs Donald Trump's base. Lock her up. You know, Trump the blank, you know. I’m saying that’s the heart.
WALLACE: But -- but I'm actually saying the politics of it. Kim, I mean, let's talk about the substance of what was going on there.
STRASSEL: Yes, look, you have to go back and remember what was happening here. This is 2010. The earthquake. The Clinton Foundation is tagged as a lead by the U.N. They are collecting millions of dollars. We know for a fact from books that Peter Schweizer’s "Clinton Cash" that lots of people who were foundation donors indeed did get contracts in Haiti. And there is a very bad feeling in Haiti against the Clintons. You know, the -- the former senate leader in Haiti called them common thieves. So -- and then you take what we just found in these e-mails and we know that indeed they were segregating. An official at the State Department segregating out people who were considered VIPs of William Jefferson Clinton, special friends of the Clinton Foundation. So we don’t --
WILLIAMS: There is no evidence, Kimberley, that they were given all of these contracts.
ROVE: Yes, there is. Yes, there is. Yes, there is.
WILLIAMS: That's just unfair. And I think the idea --
ROVE: Juan --
WILLIAMS: That you would make an equivalent between what's been going on with Trump and all the of the lies and corruption --
WALLACE: Well, let’s -- well, wait -- just talk --
WILLIAMS: But, no, that’s what I’m saying, you go after --
WALLACE: No, let's just talk about -- let’s talk about the foundation.
WILLIAMS: You go after the Clintons as if it’s the equivalent.
ROVE: It is (ph).
WILLIAMS: And it’s not an equivalent.
ROVE: Look --
WILLIAMS: And I think the American people, when you look at the favorability numbers on trust, if Clinton is -- is in -- underwater, minus 10, Clinton -- Trump is under 25.
WALLACE: But, honestly, you’re pivoting. Juan, you're pivoting. Why don’t’ you talk about the Clinton Foundation (INAUDIBLE).
STRASSEL: Yes, Juan, (INAUDIBLE) --
WILLIAMS: I'm glad to, but I’m saying, it's not an equivalent, Chris.
STRASSEL: Can I just say this. The other e-mail we were talking about is very clearly spelling out Hillary Clinton said, I will go to Morocco if you give my endowment $12 million.
WILLIAMS: She was gone from being secretary of state, Kimberley.
STRASSEL: We actually don't know when that --
WILLIAMS: She’s -- yes, she was.
STRASSEL: We don’t know when that (INAUDIBLE) --
WILLIAMS: Well, no, no, (INAUDIBLE) --
WALLACE: Well, wait, admitting that she was gone from being secretary of state, she was running --
WILLIAMS: Thank you.
WALLACE: She was running for president.
WILLIAMS: She was considering running for president.
WALLACE: You don't think -- you don’t think that the $12 million had something to do with the fact that she was running and was likely to be the next president?
ROVE: She (INAUDIBLE) within a month of her announcement.
WILLIAMS: Yes, that's what the e-mails reveal, that it was a consideration. But the suggestion is that she made a quid pro quo arrangement --
WALLACE: No. It was --
WILLIAMS: Give me the money and I'll show up and give a speech.
WALLACE: Well, that --
STRASSEL: Well, that’s what the e-mail said.
WALLACE: And she -- and she winds up giving the speech for free.
ROVE: Yes. Right, she did.
WILLIAMS: But she didn't (ph) show up, did she, Chris?
ROVE: She -- she got the money and she ran.
WILLIAMS: she didn't show up.
ROVE: Look, back in Haiti --
WALLACE: All right, real quick, then we’ve got to go.
ROVE: Back to -- back to Haiti for a second. Look, Digicel (ph) and Dennis Haras (ph), largest Irish contributor to the Clinton Global Foundation gets tens of millions of dollars of USAID. Coracel (ph) Industrial Park, largest single grant goes to Kim -- Wong Kim (ph) of C.A., gets $124 million from the U.S., $100 million from the International Development Bank --
WALLACE: All right.
ROVE: And a Clinton donor. There's a broader issue here. Real quick --
WALLACE: Not only a Clinton donor, incidentally. He helped set up Cheryl Mills, the Clinton chief of staff in business (ph).
ROVE: In -- in -- in (INAUDIBLE). There's a real issue here, though, just quickly. She -- she committed in January of 2009 to Senator -- Senator Luger (ph) said this. You foundation --
WALLACE: This is a confirmation hearing.
ROVE: At her confirmation hearing, this isn't a temptation for any foreign entity or government that believes it can curry favor through a donation. And -- and John Kerry joins with her -- joins with Fluke (ph) and says --
WALLACE: All right.
WILLIAMS: Really quickly.
WALLACE: This is a long final statement.
ROVE: Look, she made a commitment to avoid these kind of controversies.
WALLACE: Panel, we have to take a break here, but when we come back, does Trump still have a path to win this election?
Plus, sparks fly at a charity dinner. So what do you think? Did Trump and Clinton go too far with their jokes? Let me know on Facebook or Twitter @foxnewssunday and use the #fns. We'll keep talking in the meantime.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLINTON: It's amazing I'm up here after Donald. I didn't think he'd be OK with a peaceful transition of power.
TRUMP: Hillary believes that it's vital to deceive the people by having one public policy and a totally different policy in private. Here she is tonight, in public, pretending not to hate Catholics.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump trading barbs at the annual Al Smith Dinner, turning what is traditionally some gentle ribbing into something much rougher.
And we're back now with the panel.
Well, we're going to get to the unusual doings at the dinner a little bit later. But, first, Karl, I want to go over the numbers. You saw some of the numbers that we went over with Kellyanne Conway. There is a new poll out this morning from ABC News and The Washington Post. Let's put it up. It shows Clinton at 50 and Trump at 38. A 12-point jump. That's one of the biggest that I've seen.
Karl, that poll, everything else, what is Trump's path to victory now, or doesn't he have one?
ROVE: Well, if he plays an inside straight, he could get it, but I doubt that he's going to be able to play it. He has 168 electoral votes in states that he either leads outside of the margin of error. That’s -- or -- or is thought comfortably put away. That compares to Romney's 206. That's Romney's states minus Arizona and North Carolina, where he’s behind, and plus Iowa, where he's ahead.
There's only one other -- he's ahead in Ohio by -- by less than one-tenths of a percent -- by less than one point. That gets him to 214. There's only one other state where he's within four, Florida. That would get him to 243. And everything else ranges from 4.3 to 10 points, all the rest of the battleground states. And he would have to not only win two states where he is either only slightly ahead or behind by four, but he would have to pick up states where he is behind, by, at or above the national average. I don't see it happening.
WALLACE: I'm sorry, you don't?
ROVE: I -- I don't see it happening. I mean maybe it could, but I -- I -- I doubt that in -- in -- in the just over two weeks that we've got left, conducting the kind of campaign that he is conducting, that he's going to be able to swing one out of every, you know, ten voters, one out of every 12 voters, one out of every 15 voters in a -- one out of every six voters in a state and convert -- and convert them.
WALLACE: Kim, what about this conversation that I had with Robby Mook that -- that Clinton is in such a commanding position that she may now try to expand the map so run up the score, both so that she can claim a mandate, and also try to turn both the House and the Senate to the Democrats.
STRASSEL: Well, she's doing that. She's moving in with ads into Arizona, Missouri, places that are not traditionally areas where Democrats play. They're feeling very confident here. And, yes, that is largely a move to try to get the Senate. I think the House is off limits. It's not going to happen. But, you know, the -- the Senate is on a knife's edge. If she can go in there and flip it, it, at the very least, gives her more ability to put her Supreme Court nominee in place, but also, you know, a little bit more leverage. Now, that’s completely aside whether or not she can have a mandate given the campaign that has been run out there. Either of them come into office and have a mandate, because there hasn't been much discussion of issues. But if she has the Senate in her back corner, that's the goal at the moment.
WALLACE: Bob, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce ran an interesting ad this week. Let's take a look at it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): America's future is far from certain. But no matter who the next president is, New Hampshire needs a strong voice in the U.S. Senate. That senator, Kelly Ayotte.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: No matter who the next president is. Now, they didn't go all the way to what happened with Bob Dole in 1996, which I'm sure Karl remembers, where by the end the Republicans were running ads basically saying -- for Senate and House races saying, elect our person to be a check against Bill Clinton, but we're headed into that area, aren't we?
WOODWARD: Quite possibly. And it -- and it may be over. I'm not totally convinced because I think there are a lot of secret Trump supporters out there who won't even tell pollsters that they're going to vote for him because they think it's a neighbor calling playing a joke. I think the real issue now is, what's going to be the impact on voters after the election. And I -- I think I said to you that there are a group of valium voters, people who talk tough, who really treat all of this as an emotional combat between Trump and Clinton. And actually after the election, they're going to chill out. They may have to self-medicate, but lives are going to go on. And this is not going to be the end of the world. And it's been portrayed as Armageddon, and I'm not sure it -- it is.
WALLACE: Well, for those -- the Armageddon lobby, one of the -- one of the points that they would -- they would cite was the Al Smith dinner, which is usually very dignified, very gentle ribbing, and turned ugly and mean and, frankly, particularly by Trump, and he was openly getting booed, Juan, at a -- at a charity dinner. And I wonder, maybe I'm making too much of this, but, to me, those kind of events are the glue which hold the country together. I don't mean the Al Smith Dinner, but the sort of sense that whatever divides us, that what unites us is -- is bigger. Were you troubled by the Al Smith Dinner and the -- the tone of it?
WILLIAMS: Well, at first I was surprised because, like you, I've seen Al Smith Dinners and I've never seen anything like -- I’ve never seen anybody get booed at an Al Smith Dinner. And, remember, Trump is from Manhattan. A lot of these people are people that he knows very well and the -- I think he thought it was his crowd. I think he misread that crowd. And when he starts off about hate Catholics, that she -- she wants to deceive people, the little bit that you played picks up on the nasty woman line that he used earlier.
WALLACE: So -- so corrupt that she got kicked of the Watergate committee.
WILLIAMS: Yes. And he says, you know, after listening to Hillary, Rosie O'Donnell looks better. I mean just -- it just didn't -- it didn’t have the right timber. It didn’t have the right feel. And I think it -- a lot of people just felt like, again, on this issue, do we have any comedy? Can we at least have a conversation -- can we have a moment of grace after his not very good performance at that third debate. I just -- I just thought it was sad for the country in some ways.
WOODWARD: But -- but isn't that his brand, going over the line. And he has a tin ear for something like this. And, you know, people look at this, but what about his supporters. I think that's what they expect.
WALLACE: Well, I want to --
WILLIAMS: Well, actually --
WALLACE: And I want to bring you in. We’ve got about a minute left. I mean, are we going to pay a price for the ugliness of this campaign after the election?
STRASSEL: I think so because -- we were just talking about a mandate. OK, you know, when Bush ran, it was very clear, if he won, he was going to put his tax policy in and, you know, this was his main thing he was going to do. Can anyone tell me what the number one priority of either of these candidates would be if they were actually elected to the White House? It has been so ugly on both sides, no one’s going to come in with a mandate. We're going to have a more divided country than we have ever had before and --
WILLIAMS: Actually, (INAUDIBLE).
ROVE: If she -- if she gets elected, her unfavorables today are 53 percent. In October of 1964, Barry Goldwater's were 47. And in October of 1972, George McGovern’s were 41. She will be the most unpopular person ever to take the office (ph).
WILLIAMS: All right --
WALLACE: We got to -- we -- we -- we got to leave it there. You know what --
WILLIAMS: All right.
WALLACE: We'll have more time to discuss this in the future. Always leave them wanting more.
Thank you, panel. See you next Sunday.
Up next, Tom Hanks and the folks on "Saturday Night Live" poke fun at, well, all the participants in the final debate.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOM HANKS, ACTOR: Tonight is going to be a lot like the third "Lord of the Rings" movie. You don't really want to watch, but, hey, you've come this far.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HANKS: WikiLeaks has been releasing your campaign e-mails, many of which raise some serious questions.
KATE MCKINNON, ACTOR, "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE": Thank you for bringing up my e-mails, Chris. And I'm -- I’m very happy to clarify what was in some of them. Sorry, what, Carol? What? I’m sorry, I thought I heard my friend Carol. Anyway, back to your questions about the way that Donald treats women. And that is how you pivot.
HANKS: So you're just never going to answer a question about your e-mails?
MCKINNON: No, but it was very cute to watch you try.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: That was "Saturday Night Live’s" take on this week's debate.
And what a week it was as the candidates faced off for the final time and then started their sprint to the finish on the trail.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: If you look at your voter rolls, you will see millions of people that are registered to vote that shouldn't be registered to vote.
CLINTON: There was even a time when he didn't get an Emmy for his TV program three years in a row and he started tweeting that the Emmys were rigged against him.
TRUMP: Should have gotten it.
CLINTON: This -- this is a mindset.
No more debates. No more naps.
IVANKA TRUMP, DONALD TRUMP’S DAUGHTER: He is -- he is not politically correct. And -- and I think we love that about him, right? Ninety-seven percent of the time.
TRUMP: And I will totally accept the results of this great and historic presidential election -- if I win.
SEN. TIM KAINE, D-VA., VICE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: And, no, Donald, you've got to accept the results win or lose.
JOE BIDEN, D-VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I remember dating a guy from -- oh, dating, God. By the way, the reason guys can date is because of me.
KAINE: This is the weirdest race I've ever seen, and I'm in the middle of it.
GOV. MIKE PENCE, R-VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Did you want to make take a picture? I’d be happy to --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Sure.
PENCE: Just in case we turn out to be somebody important, so --
TRUMP: This is the first time ever, ever, that Hillary is sitting down and speaking to major corporate leaders and not getting paid for it.
CLINTON: You notice there is no teleprompter here tonight, which is probably smart. They're hard to keep up, and I’m sure it's even harder when you're translating from the original Russian.
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You -- you used to criticize me for even talking to the Russians. Now suddenly you're OK with your nominee having a bromance with Putin.
KAINE: Do this. Wait. Do this.
TRUMP: What a waste of time if we don't pull this off. You know, these guys have said, doesn't matter if you win or lose, there's never been a movement like this in the history of this country. I say, it matters to me whether we win or lose.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: You can be sure the narrative will change again in these final 16 days before the election.
And that's it for today. Have a great week and we'll see you next "Fox News Sunday."
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