Giuliani addresses Trump's treatment of women; John Podesta speaks out after his email is hacked

This is a rush transcript from "Fox News Sunday," October 9, 2016. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.


Explosive leaks just before the second presidential debate.  More hacked e-mails that show what Hillary Clinton really told those big bankers.  

And Donald Trump apologizing after release of a tape of him making lewd remarks about women.  


DONALD TRUMP, R-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  I moved on her and I failed.  I'll admit it.  I did try and (EXPLETIVE DELETED) her.  She was married.

WALLACE:  Now, some top Republicans are jumping ship.  

SEN. MIKE LEE, R-UTAH:  I respectfully ask you, with all due respect, just step aside, step down.  

REP. PAUL RYAN, R-WIS., SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE:  There is a bit of an elephant in the room and it is a troubling situation.  And I’m serious, it is.  

WALLACE:  We'll discuss whether Trump can recover, with top adviser Rudy Giuliani.  

RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER NYC MAYOR:  He's in the race to win and he is going to win.  

WALLACE:  Then, hacked e-mails show Clinton was telling bankers something very different from what she was telling voters.  

We'll ask John Podesta, Clinton's campaign chairman, about the stark contradictions between what she was saying in public and private.  It's a "Fox News Sunday" exclusive.  

And we'll ask our Sunday panel after the leak of that recording, will the GOP dump Trump?  

Plus, a conversation with Bill O'Reilly about the election and media bias.  

BILL O’REILLY, FOX NEWS ANCHOR, "THE O’REILLY FACTOR":  The prevailing wisdom in Washington, as you know, and in New York City is that we journalists know better than everybody.  

WALLACE:  All, right now, on "Fox News Sunday."


WALLACE:  And hello again from Fox News in Washington.  

We begin with the latest on Hurricane Matthew.  The deadly storm is now a post-tropical cyclone with sustained winds of 75 miles per hour.  The storm's track shows it over eastern North Carolina, heading into the Atlantic.  

Matthew has dumped more than a foot of rain on the coastal Carolinas.  More than a million people have been left without power.  The storm is blamed for at least ten deaths in the U.S.  We'll have much more on Matthew later in the hour.  

Now to latest political storms with both campaigns in full damage control.  Donald Trump's lewd talk about women is sending shock waves through the Republican Party.  Meanwhile, Hillary Clinton is dealing with the revelation of what she told bankers in those big-money speeches.  And we're just hours from the second presidential debate tonight in St.  Louis.  

In a moment, we'll speak with John Podesta, Clinton's campaign chairman.  But, first, live from Trump Tower, former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani, a top adviser to the campaign.  

Mayor, let's start with the tape of Trump talking to "Access Hollywood's" Billy Bush back in 2005.  He brags about hitting on a married woman and then says this.  


TRUMP:  I’m automatically attracted to beautiful -- it's like a magnet.  I don't even -- and when you're a star, they let you do it.  You can do anything.  

BILLY BUSH:  Whatever you want.  

TRUMP:  Grab them by the (EXPLETIVE DELETED).  You can do anything.  


WALLACE:  Mayor Giuliani, we had booked Kellyanne Conway, the campaign manager, but late last night, the campaign pulled her and said that you're going to be our guest.  We're always happy to have you.  

But I got to ask you, was Kellyanne Conway unwilling to defend Trump's remarks about women?  

GIULIANI:  Well, I don't think anyone is going to defend his remarks.  Is Kellyanne still a very strong supporter of Donald Trump and does she believe he'd make a better president than Hillary Clinton?  Absolutely, yes.  So, I think this is a question of scheduling and not being willing to explain.  

I’m not here to defend his comments.  If he were here, he wouldn't be defending his comments.  His comments were wrong.  They were very wrong, and reprehensible.  He's said that and apologized for it.  

And I think what you're looking at is a man who's gone through 14 months of running for president, understands the weight on his shoulder of all of these people who voted for him, who believe in him, who believe he's -- really has a movement to try to change this country.  They have outsiders kind of taking it back from the insiders who have been running it and in many cases ruining for quite some time.  

So, I think the point that we make is, he has apologized for this, and we believe if you get to the issues, he's the candidate that is much better suited to run the country than Hillary Clinton, who has her own set of flaws.  


WALLACE:  We're going to get to those in a moment, but I want to stay on --

GIULIANI:  I know you are.  

WALLACE:  -- on Donald Trump.  Around midnight on Friday, Trump put out a statement apologizing for his comments.  Here's a clip of that.  


TRUMP:  I’ve said and done things I regret, and the words released today on this more than a decade-old video are one of them.  Anyone who knows me knows these words don't reflect who I am.  I said it, I was wrong, and I apologize.  


WALLACE:  Trump says, "The words don't reflect who I am."  But, Mayor, there's a long history of Trump making aggressive moves on women.  He's been sued for sexual harassment, and there are decades of insults of women.  

Don't these words reflect exactly who he is?  

GIULIANI:  No, they don't.  I know Donald Trump for almost 30 years.  Doesn't reflect the man that I know.  I’ve had many conversations with him.  I may have had a conversation like that with him.  

I know a man who's been a wonderful father, who's brought up remarkable children, including two wonderful daughters and three granddaughters.  He's always dealt -- in my time with him -- he's always dealt with women with great respect.  He's been a gentleman.  

So, are there things he's done wrong during that period of time or things that he said wrong that he wishes he didn't?  I’m sure there are.  

The reality is he also has gone through something that is transformational in a person's life, a presidential campaign.  He's gone through 14 months of being out there, hearing what people are worried about and afraid of -- afraid of losing their jobs, having lost their jobs, jobs being moved from Ohio to Mexico or from Michigan to Mexico or from Pennsylvania to China.  People who were worried they're going to be completely out of work like the coal miners that Hillary Clinton says are all going to be fired and all going to be gone.  

So, these things weigh on you as a person.  I went through it.  And they make you a lot more serious and they literally make you into a different kind of person.  I think September 11 and running for president made me into a different person.  

WALLACE:  Sir, I don't mean to interrupt.  I want to the get to a couple other issues.  I know you want to talk about the hacked e-mails.  

One more question about Trump, though, because there has been a storm of criticism inside the GOP against Trump, and some people are now calling for him to drop out.  Let's put up some of the reaction.  Dozens of GOP leaders have abandoned him.  

House Speaker Paul Ryan said, "I am sickened by what I heard today."  Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, "These comments are repugnant and unacceptable in any circumstance."  Congressman Jason Chaffetz, "I’m out, I’m pulling my endorsement."  And Congresswoman Martha Roby, "The best thing for our country and our party is for Trump to step aside."

Now, I know you say, well, that's the elite or that’s the establishment.  There are a lot of people who were Trump supporters who have had enough.  I guess my question is, if the GOP, if leaders were to come to Donald Trump this week and say, for the good of the party, to save the GOP majorities in the House and in the Senate, you've got to step down.  What will he do?  

GIULIANI:  Donald Trump is running for president.  He was selected -- many of those people are good friends of mine.  In fact, I think they all are.  And their opinion is given a great deal of weight and consideration.  He has.

But he was selected by, you know, millions and millions of Republicans who still very much believe in him, who I think are more willing to forgive, maybe, than some others, and more willing to realize that this is a different man today than the man that was reflected in those comments.  

This is a man who has a very heavy weight on his shoulders of having to determine the future of the Supreme Court, having to deal with the rising crime that last year was the largest number of murders, increase in the last 40 --  

WALLACE:  Mayor --  

GIULIANI:  -- 40, 41 years.  

So, that's what I would say.  I would say he would listen to them, but I believe he's going to remain in the race.  In fact, I know he is.  

WALLACE:  Finally, let's turn to the hacked e-mails of John Podesta, which indicate that Hillary Clinton was saying something very different from what she said on the campaign trail when she was talking in those big money, closed door speeches to Wall Street bankers.  She says her dream is open trade and open borders across the western hemisphere.  She says the people on Wall Street know best how to regulate Wall Street, and she says she is far removed from the struggles of the middle class because of the fortunes that my husband and I now enjoy.  


WALLACE:  Your reaction?  

GIULIANI:  Well -- and she also pointed out, I think, in one of them that she's a different person to them than she is -- she has to be different politically.  So, we have two Hillary Clintons, which says we have a person who's a liar.  

Chris, that's what she is.  I mean, over and over again.  I can go through her 302s and Martha Stewart was prosecuted for one lie, I could have prosecuted her for 10, like she didn't know that "C" meant confidential.  

Come on, Hillary.  You know, you can put that one over on somebody but not me.  

So, we've got two candidates that have flaws.  Now, let's get to the issues.  Who are going to be better on the issues?  

And I do think one of the really horrible things about that is had those come out, Bernie Sanders would be the candidate now that we'd be running against, not her, because she fought so hard to keep those secret.  We now know why, because if she had run the way she ran on those tapes for all those bankers, for all that -- I mean, she got paid millions of dollars for saying that stuff.  

WALLACE:  Mayor Giuliani --  

GIULIANI:  She got paid for it.  She would not be the candidate.  

WALLACE:  Mayor Giuliani, we're going to have to cut it short.  We thank you.  Thanks for your time today, sir.  

GIULIANI:  Thank you.  

WALLACE:  Hillary Clinton goes into tonight's debate hauling her own baggage.  Hacked e-mails now reveal what Clinton was telling Wall Street bankers and big money speeches behind closed doors.  Transcripts she refused to make public.  

Joining me now only on "Fox News Sunday," Clinton campaign chairman John Podesta.

John, I promise we'll get to the Trump tape in a moment.  But, first, we need to talk about these hacked e-mails from your private account.  To go back in time, let's hear what Hillary Clinton was telling voters in New Hampshire last February.  


HILLARY CLINTON, D-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  Anybody who knows me who thinks that they can influence me, name anything they've influenced me on.  Just name one thing.  I’m out here every day saying I’m going to shut them down, I’m going after them, I’m going to jail them if they should be jailed, I’m going to break them up.  


WALLACE:  But here's what Clinton told bankers about regulation at one of those Goldman Sachs speeches: "How do you get to the golden key?  How do we figure out what works?  And the people that know the industry better than anybody are the people who work in the industry."

So, John, what's her real view?  Crack down on big money or kiss up to them?  

JOHN PODESTA, HILLARY CLINTON CAMPAIGN MANAGER:  Well, Chris, I think we should take a step back and say how we got here, which is that the Russians, as U.S. senior members of the U.S. government confirmed, have been hacking into Democratic accounts, and now, they've hacked into my account.  They've put out documents purported to be from my account.

But I think if you look at what she said in this campaign, to get to your question -- I would just say, you know, this should be of concern to everyone that the Russians are trying to influence our election.  

But I'll answer your question directly, which is as she said all throughout this campaign, she'll crack down on Wall Street.  She said it, too, there's nothing that she hasn't said in private that she doesn't say in public.  She's put forward the most aggressive Wall Street plan of any candidate, really.  

She stands behind Dodd/Frank.  Donald Trump wants to rip it away.  She won't let Wall Street --


WALLACE:  But, John, what are we to make of the fact she says in private that the people who know the industry best in terms of regulation are the people who work on Wall Street?  

PODESTA:  That's hardly -- that's hardly a revelation.  I mean, I think people on Wall Street know how to game the system.  What she wants to do is crack down on the system, make sure that there's no institution that's too big to fail and there's no person that's too big to jail.  

So, I think she's put forward very comprehensive ideas about that, how to reduce the size of big banks, and that's why Bernie Sanders yesterday after looking at those transcripts said that he stands behind her.  What they worked together to produce on the Democratic platform.  That's what she'll do as president of the United States.  


PODESTA:  There's nothing exceptional in there.  

WALLACE:  Well, the question -- it's like what Donald Trump says.  He's the one to handle the tax system because he knows how to game it.  

Let me ask you about another one.  During the campaign, Clinton has taken a tough line on both trade and on immigration.  But here's what she said in a big money speech to a Brazilian bank, "My dream is a hemispheric common market with open trade and open borders.  Just think of what doubling the trade between the United States and Latin America would mean for everybody in this room."

John, open trade, open borders?  

PODESTA:  Look, you could pluck a few words if that's what she did say out of context.  I think, again, she's put forward and has been for and has constantly, you know, championed and voted for comprehensive immigration reform that modernizes our border security.  She -- when she was secretary of state, she talked about creating a hemispheric effort to bring clean energy across the continent from the tip of South America to Canada, to invest in clean and renewable energy, to invest in the transmission that would clean up our energy system.  

And, you know, I think that she's constantly talked about that.  She had an initiative when she was secretary of state to do that.  So, you got to look at the context of some of these remarks.

WALLACE:  But, John, this goes --  

PODESTA:  And I think when you look at what she said about immigration, she's for comprehensive immigration reform that takes people out of the shadows, emphasizes family unity, but also has -- modernizes our border security.  

WALLACE:  But, John, this gets to the heart --


PODESTA:  So, you can take a word here and a word there --

WALLACE:  This gets to the heart of people's concerns about Hillary Clinton.  

I want to take an excerpt from another one of her speeches.  As she said, "You need both a public and a private position."  

The question is, when you see the speeches and then you see what she's saying on the campaign, and sometimes they're diametrically opposed, what's her real position?  

PODESTA:  They're not diametrically opposed, Chris.  She talked about income inequality to Wall Street.  She said we need to close the carried interest loophole.  

She said to them that even as early as 2008 that what they were doing with credit default swaps and the housing market was going to wreck the economy, which it did.  She's been tough with them when she was a senator from New York.  That's when she's done.  They're not diametrically opposed.  

Again, you can pull a few words out of context, but what he said on this campaign trail was she will be tough on Wall Street.  And that's exactly what she'll do.  

WALLACE:  All right.  We’ve got a little bit of time remaining.  You’ve been very patient.  Your reaction to the Trump tape?  

PODESTA:  Well, my reaction is it's disgusting.  And I think people saw in real life what we've been saying for our long time, what Hillary said as far back as June, is that he's unfit to be president of the United States.  

You see Republicans leaving him in droves.  There are now 46 senior Republicans who said that he should either withdraw or they won't vote for him just since Friday.  So I think he'll have some explaining himself to do tonight.  

But, you know, this isn't an exception.  He's said the same horrible things about Latinos, about African-Americans, about Muslims.  He's made fun of a reporter with disabilities.  

You know, this is who this guy is.  And I think that the American people just heard and saw for themselves in some graphic detail which, you know, I hope every voter actually takes the time to see what is really on that tape.  I hope all of their children don't get to see what's on that tape.  

WALLACE:  John Podesta -- John, thank you.  Thanks for joining us today.  Of course, we'll all be watching what happens in tonight's debate.  

Up next, we'll bring in our Sunday group to discuss the explosive reaction to Trump's crude remarks, with some top Republicans now calling on him to drop out of the race.  

Plus, what would you like to ask the panel about the impact of the Trump tape?  Just go to Facebook or Twitter @FoxNewsSunday, and we may use your question on the air.  



TRUMP:  I moved on her, actually.  You know, she was down in Palm Beach.  I'll admit it.  

Let's be honest.  We're living in the real world.  This is nothing more than a distraction from the important issues we're facing today.  


WALLACE:  Donald Trump apologizing and trying to turn the page after that leaked tape from 2005 showed him in a crude conversation about women.  

And it's time now for our Sunday group.  GOP strategist Karl Rove, Fox News political analyst Juan Williams, New York Times columnist, Maureen Dowd, author of "The Year of Voting Dangerously" -- and, boy, is it?  And Jason Riley of the Wall Street Journal.

Well, Karl, let me start with you.  And the rules of the Republican Party -- Trump says he's not dropping out, and apparently it's almost impossible.  Maybe you'll tell me I’m wrong, for them to force him out.  

I know that the House GOP is going to have a conference call tomorrow morning to discuss all of this.  How seriously is the idea of trying to find some way either by force or persuasion to get Donald Trump to drop out?  

KARL ROVE, FORMER WHITE HOUSE ADVISOR:  Well, first of all, there are two steps to this.  They can't force him out, but they could declare him somehow ineligible, but realistically, the Republican National Committee can't replace him unless he withdraws.  Then, members of the national committee could replace him.  

But let's be realistic.  The second problem is the states.  We're already voting in more than a dozen states, accepting absentee ballots applications in several dozens more.  I mean, there are ballots prepared in virtually I would suspect every state.  

And it's going to be impossible, virtually impossible, to replace Donald Trump if he were to decide to resign on most state ballots.  

WALLACE:  Is this being talked about seriously in Republican circles?  Because you have dozens of GOP leaders, members of Congress, members of the Senate, talking about him, that he should step down.  

ROVE:  Well, I wrote about this in may when we were contemplating the problem for Hillary Clinton being indicted after the Democratic convention.  Let me just tell you, I’m not a lawyer, but after talking to a lot of lawyers, it's virtually impossible to replace somebody in August, let alone in October.  

And if he were to decide to do it, it would take a week or so to get the national committee together to arrive at this.  So, we're talking about literally two or three weeks before the election.  At that point, virtually every state is sending out absentee ballots or having early voting or both.  

WALLACE:  Maureen, I’m sitting reading my New York Times on Saturday morning.  Lead story, The F bomb --  


WALLACE:  -- explicit descriptions of women's anatomy.  These are quotes from Donald Trump.  I also see the paper in the front page also says, "All the news that's fit to print."  

I got to say, I have two questions.  One, what has happened to the Gray Lady, as "The Times" is called?  And is this all just a promotion for your new book?  


DOWD:  Yes.  Chris, I think that Trump's lasting legacy, aside from throwing the Republican Party, will be changing The New York Times in these profound ways where for the first time we've changed our policy and we call politicians liars and presidential candidates liars, which we never did.  

I was always having to look up synonyms when I was writing about Dick Cheney.  And now, we've changed the policy again to use these kind of smutty words.  So, thank you, Donald Trump.  

WALLACE:  A contribution to the legacy of The Times and our culture.  

DOWD:  Right.

WALLACE:  We asked you for questions for the panel.  And we got a bunch, and sharply divided opinions about the Trump tape.  

Michelle Foyles Nash sent this on Facebook, "All men say things to each other they wouldn't want anyone else to hear.  Get on with the real problems of the country."

But Melinda Steinhouse writes, "I have been a supporter of Trump, but I think unfortunately in light of these comments, he should step down.  The GOP needs to nominate pence for president.  There is too much at stake with the Supreme Court."

Jason, look, let's be honest.  Trump's crude comments about women are nothing new.  We’ve -- I guess the question I have is, why is this tipping point?  Why is this the point at which a lot of people, particularly Republican officials, are saying, that's it?  

JASON RILEY, THE WALL STREET JOURNAL:  Well, I think partly this is self-preservation.  I think there's a lot of pessimism about Trump's chances in November.  You see party officials saying, we've got to count on split ticket voters to help us hang on to the Senate, maybe distancing ourselves from Trump will help us do that.  

I think there's also just a bit of exhaustion that has set in here, in trying to defend all the things he's said over the years.  I mean, some of us stopped or never did it in the first place.  Others were waiting for him to turn it around, to grow up, to become more presidential.  And now, they said, you know what, it hasn't happened in the first 70 years of his life, I don't think it's going to happen in the next 30 days, and they're done with him.  

WALLACE:  What do you think about this idea of him dropping out?  Not that the replacement would necessarily be able to beat Clinton, as we talked about all the ballots, but it might save the House -- the Republican House and the Republican Senate.  

RILEY:  There is -- that's one scenario.  But another scenario and a scary one if you're one of these Republican officials, is Donald Trump not going quietly and saying to his supporters, I told you the system was rigged.  Now take it out on the GOP up and down the ballot.  That's a risk.  

WALLACE:  You know, all this is playing out as we should point out, almost like a movie.  Almost like a Maureen Dowd book, hours before the second presidential debate.  I guess the question, Juan, is there anything you could see with Rudy Giuliani not combative, very regretful of what he had said, remorseful, and saying, but let's get to the issues.

Is there anything Trump can do tonight to take some of the sting out of this?  

JUAN WILLIAMS, FOX NEWS POLITICAL ANALYST:  Well, I think the first thing he's got to do -- actually, there's three risky strategies I can envision, Chris.  

One, ignore it -- which I think is what Rudy Giuliani was trying to say.  It's a nonissue, the man apologized.  

And then, secondly, saying it's being overplayed by my opponent, who are leaking this material.  Maybe it was the mainstream press is out to get me putting this stuff out and there's more to come and all that.  And then get back to the idea that he's the great disrupter, that he's here to disrupt American politics.  The status quo is unacceptable, Hillary Clinton is unacceptable.  

The third possibility, which may be the riskiest, is to go after Bill Clinton.  We saw this in one of his apologies where he said, I heard worse on the golf course from Bill Clinton.  

What if he goes directly at Clinton and that the idea that Mrs. Clinton has been part of the team that disparage women who are involved with his husband, what happens then?  How does Hillary Clinton respond?  How does this audience -- remember, it's a town hall -- how did the individuals respond?  

I think that's a very risky strategy, given that we know not only about the tape but Miss Universe, the things he's said about Megyn Kelly and the rest.  It would really, I think, be an explosion.  

WALLACE:  Karl, we got about a minute left in this segment.  You've advised politicians.  You've been in this spot hours before a debate -- obviously never quite --  


WALLACE:  -- this situation.  


WALLACE:  But you're sitting there.  You're the senior adviser to Donald Trump.  What would you say?  

ROVE:  We saw it in Rudy Giuliani.  Only sincere words of contrition will allow him to begin to salvage this, to say it is -- this issue is bigger than him, this experience of running for president has taught him the enormous responsibility that he bears as the spokesman for this movement, and try and refocus it on the big issues.  But it's going to have to be sincere and honest.  Everyone is going to judge that.  

That tape at 12:00 a.m., you know --

WALLACE:  The apology.  

ROVE:  The Saturday morning apology tape, that didn't come across as sincere.  That came across as combative.  It needs to be sincere contrition.  Even then, it's going to be hard.  

He had a narrow window to win.  I think that narrow window is closing because it's very difficult to attract swing voters.  

WALLACE:  Real quickly, if he were to do option three of Brother Williams over here and go after the Clinton?  

ROVE:  A mistake, because what he simply says is, I’m just as bad as he is, and he's just as bad as me.  But his name is not on the ballot, that name Bill Clinton.   It's Hillary Clinton.  And she can simply say -- not on the ballot.

And let's remember this.  This is probably not the last or the worst oppo dump that the Clinton campaign has to go.  

He needs to set up for what's coming down the road by saying, "You know what, I’m a changed man.  I changed in the last decade, but I’ve been particularly change by the events in the last 14 months.  I get it.  You're asking me to change America.  Keep America from being transformed in front of your eyes.  I will do that and I’ll take it serious."

WALLACE:  All right, panel.  We have to take a break.  

But coming up, Hillary Clinton faces her own problems -- hacked e-mails that show her taking very different positions on trade, borders, and Wall Street in big money speeches to bankers than what she's telling voters.  That's next.  


WALLACE:  Coming up, one on one with Bill O'Reilly about the campaign and tonight's debate.  


BILL O’REILLY, FOX NEWS ANCHOR, THE O’REILLY FACTOR:  Trump has got to be feisty but not mean.  You know, he should have those two words -- feisty but not mean.  


WALLACE:  O'Reilly on politics, media bias, his new book, and possible retirement.  That’s next.



HILLARY CLINTON, D-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  Trump was taking from America with both hands and leaving the rest of us with the bill.  

TRUMP:  Her only method of making money is by selling government favors and granting access to special interests.  


WALLACE:  Those are the kind of issues we thought Trump and Clinton would be talking about in tonight's debate before the explosive leaks of his tape about women and her speeches to Wall Street.  

We're back now with the panel.  

Well, Maureen, we finally got to see what Hillary Clinton was hiding in the transcripts of those big money, closed-door speeches to Wall Street -- talked about open borders, open trade, that the people who know best how to regulate Wall Street are the people who work on Wall Street.

How damaging to Clinton with just four weeks to go in this campaign?  

MAUREEN DOWN, COLUMNIST, THE NEW YORK TIMES:  I think it would have been lethal during the primaries, but now not so much because, you know, in many ways, she is the GOP candidate.  She's the one who cuddles up to hedge funds, and she's the shill of Wall Street.  So, it's only what we already knew.  

WALLACE:  But what about the argument that this speaks to, you know, whether you like the policy or don't like the policy, that she's not honest and she's not trustworthy?  

DOWD:  Well, wow.  So Hillary Clinton will do and say anything to win.  That's not a surprise.  And as usual, Donald Trump drags all his Acme dynamite to the center of the stage and blows it up so that no one can pay attention to anything bad about Hillary.  

WALLACE:  A good reference to the Road Runner cartoon, for those who may have missed it.  

Jason, there was also a passage in one of her big money speeches in which Clinton invokes Lincoln fighting for the 13th Amendment to abolish slavery and saying, you need both a public and a private position.  This goes to the core, as I was talking to Maureen, about what people don't trust about this woman.  

JASON RILEY, THE WALL STREET JOURNAL:  It does.  She talks out of both sides of her mouth, depending on the audience in front of her.  

But again, in the primary -- I think Maureen is right.  In the primary, this would have been much more damaging.  

It may still do some damage to those millennial voters who she lost because they don't trust the establishment candidates because they talk out of both sides of their mouth.  But again, I think now that we've moved to the general election, and particularly since there are still so many disaffected Republican moderates who can't stomach Donald Trump, listening to her talk about trade, immigration, denouncing Edward Snowden, I think that might work to her advantage, actually.  

What strikes me, really, is still what she charges for these speeches more than what she said.  The way that the Clintons have traded on their public service to enrich themselves, more than $20 million for these speeches over a couple years.  That still boggles the mind.  

WALLACE:  Juan, your thoughts about Hillary Clinton's speeches, what we learned about them in these hacked e-mails?  

WILLIAMS:  Well, I don't think it changes anybody's view.  I think I’m just reiterating what we've heard from Jason and Maureen here, because I think people hearing this say she's the one who said TPP, the current trade deal, is the gold standard before she changed.  But she changed in the middle of the primary campaign and to that extent has adjusted to the Bernie Sanders followers and to the Democratic Party base in terms of being more restrictive in terms of trade deals.  

WALLACE:  But I guess what I’m asking is this, we knew that Donald Trump said lewd things about women, and yet somehow this tape seems to be a game changer.  We knew that Hillary Clinton had played double games on a lot of these issues, but somehow you don't seem to think that these triple transcripts are a game changer.  Why not?  

WILLIAMS:  I don't think it has the same impact.  In the case of Trump, you're right -- I mean, clearly, he had a long history of saying offensive things about women.  I could go on, offensive things about blacks, Mexicans, disabled or not.  

But I think in this case, what you're seeing at this moment in the campaign is a specific group of undecided voters that's going to decide this thing.  I think in large part, it's suburban white women who lean to the right.  And where are those women at this moment?  

I don't think they're going to be impacted by what came out from the Clinton tapes or whatever, but they are impacted when they hear Donald Trump's language because it's highly offensive.  

I mean, it’s not -- you know, look, I grew up playing sports.  I’ve been in a lot of locker rooms, Chris.  I hear men say I would like that woman or she's a hot woman.  I’ve never heard anybody say something as graphic and hostile as what came out in that tape.  

RILEY:  Which is another reason why making the debate referendum on the Clinton marriage could backfire.  How is this going to help him with that demographic?  

WILLIAMS:  I don’t think it helps him though.

WALLACE:  Karl, any way that Trump can make these hacked e-mails and the question of her honesty and trustworthiness if not as big as the tape, a memorable issue in this debate?  

ROVE:  Well, he can't make them as big because sex trumps money.  Her quotes are about money.  His is about sex.  So, you can't trump that.  

But what -- another thing is this is obscuring a second set of scandals that are worth bringing up, came out this past week that two of her aides were given immunity in the investigation of her e-mail server, and laptops were destroyed as part of that immunity agreement after the government took a look at them.  

It also turns out that Cheryl Mills has now got an official complaint with the lawyers -- with the group that regulates lawyers in the District of Columbia for violating, quote, "the absolute disqualification if you participated personally or substantially in the issue at question."  So, she was representing Hillary Clinton at the same time she was a subject of the FBI investigation.  

So, this all gets obscured.  He's got to -- if he's going to salvage anything, even his own dignity out of this, it needs to be an honest, sincere contrition and then pivot to the big issues.  I’m not even certain these WikiLeak tapes are as important as -- they’re important only to the degree that they help him raise the bigger issue of your status quo, you’re more of the same, I’m change.  

WALLACE:  I want to take this to the 30,000 view -- 30,000-foot view, Maureen.  Will this campaign -- and I suppose at this point it's kind of a rhetorical question -- will it ever be about issues, or is it just right through Election Day about these two outsized personalities?  

DOWD:  No, Chris, it's not.  


WALLACE:  We're not going to have a serious conversation?  

DOWD:  No, we're heading to the inevitable end of this, which is the mad German king locked in his castle on Fifth Avenue.  


WALLACE:  Wow.  

ROVE:  I disagree.  I think at the end of the day, voters will make up their minds on the basis, of do they think she's reasonable change, or is he change and she's status quo?  At the end, that group that's sitting there, they knew all these bad things about him and all these bad things about her.  

I think at some point, they're going to say, I’m going to set these things aside for a moment and make a critical decision about whose vision is better for me at the end.  

DOWD:  But untrustworthy and paranoid beats unstable and piggish.  

ROVE:  Could be.  


WILLIAMS:  I think -- I think a lot of people -- and I think we're going to see this tonight at the debate, Chris.  People are interested in, what are you going to do for me.  How do you help me?  In a sense, the audience is going to be asking less about scandal and more about, well, what is it that in your policy would allow me to prosper and my children to get a good education in America?

And I think because of that, and because of her experience in doing town halls, Clinton has a big advantage in showing empathy and understanding.  Trump is still on his heels, in boxing terms, still against the ropes.  

WALLACE:  But I was going to say, though -- Jason, the one advantage Trump has, people want change and they think we're on the wrong track.  

RILEY:  They do want change, but, you know, 30 days before an election, we’re still talking about the Republican nominee’s fitness for office. Not about the changes he would bring to the job in term of policy.  

WALLACE:  So, can he -- in ten seconds, can he change the conversation tonight?  

RILEY:  It's going to be very difficult for him to do that, I think, tonight.  

WALLACE:  All right.  Thank you, panel.  See you next Sunday.  We'll all watch the debate tonight.  

Up next, Bill O'Reilly on tonight's debate, media bias and how long he'll keep doing "The Factor."  You don't want to miss it.


WALLACE:  A look outside the beltway at Washington University in St. Louis, site of tonight's second presidential debate.  

Earlier this week, before the Friday bombshells, I sat down with my colleague Bill O'Reilly, author of the new book "Killing the Rising Sun." And as you'll see, we talked about all sorts of things.  


WALLACE:  Bill, welcome to "FOX News Sunday."

O’REILLY:  Thank you.  Nice to be here.  

WALLACE:  The second presidential debate tonight, what does Trump need to do, what does Clinton need to do?  

O’REILLY:  Well, Trump has got to be feisty but not mean.  You know, he should have those two words, feisty but not mean, because the folks are going to be surrounding him.  It's different than the other debate.  You have that town hall thing.  

WALLACE:  Real people.  

O’REILLY:  Yes, so it's a different kind of dynamic than when you're talking to a camera than when you're talking to a human being.  So, he's got to show some charm and some personality, but he's got to be tough.  

WALLACE:  And Clinton?  

O’REILLY:  You know, she'll be the same that she always is.  You don't see a lot of looks from Hillary Clinton.  She's got her rap down.  She'll come across as the concerned person who will fix your life.  That's what she does.  

WALLACE:  You have known Trump for 30 years.  When you see him in the debate, when you read about him tweeting in the middle of the night, does he know enough to be president, does he have the right temperament to be president?  

O’REILLY:  You know, does he know enough?  That is a purely subjective point of view because I don't think any human being knows enough to be president.  It’s who you surround yourself with, how much studying you're willing to do, how much research you're willing to do.

Temperament -- he's an impulsive man, Trump.  He reacts emotionally.  And so, when you're president, it's different than when you're campaigning because you would feel he would be wall off a little bit in the White House.  

You know how that goes.  You're not alone with anybody.  They'll take his machines away from him in the middle of the night.  Secret Service is always there.  

But on the campaign, he's been a little too impulsive, a little bit too emotional.  

WALLACE:  I want to talk to you about media bias, which I know is a subject that you are interested in.  Rudy Giuliani went on the Sunday shows this last week, and he was asked about Trump attacking the Clinton's marriage.  And here’s how he was treated.  Take a look.  


CHUCK TODD, MEET THE PRESS:  Are you the right person to level this charge?  

RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER NYC MAYOR:  Yes, I’m the right person to level this charge because they made such a charge and I’ve prosecuted people who committed rape.  

TODD:  But your past, you have your own infidelities.  

GIULIANI:  Everybody does and I -- you know, I’m a Roman Catholic.  I confess those things to my priest.  

But I think the accusations are about Hillary Clinton taking money from countries --

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR:  The accusation was Hillary Clinton was cheating on Bill.  That was the accusation was.  It was an unhinged and wild accusation.  I can understand why you can't defend it because it's indefensible.  


WALLACE:  Now, you said that Chuck Todd should apologize to Giuliani.

O’REILLY:  Absolutely.

WALLACE:  I thought Tapper was even worse.

What's going on here?  

O’REILLY:  Well, I don't like the personal stuff.  I think Todd sandbagged him, Giuliani, the mayor, because he knew he was going to ask him that question.  And that's not right.  

The prevailing wisdom in Washington, as you know, and in New York City, is that we journalists know better than everybody.  We know better than everybody.  All right?  We're smarter, all right, than the president, the senators, the mayors, particularly a barbarian like Trump.  

That's really -- the fangs are really out because they don't think -- they being journalists -- that Trump is worthy enough to even run.  He's not worthy.  So, that's what you're seeing.  And that's absolute bias.  

WALLACE:  Speaking of bias, you and your show is getting hammered right now for Jesse Watters and the piece he did on Chinatown.  Let’s show a clip.


JESSE WATTERS:  Am I supposed to bow to say hello?


WATTERS:  I like these watches.  Are they hot?  


WALLACE:  Now, you know this piece is being widely criticized as, quote, "racist".  

O’REILLY:  Do you want me to give you the accurate report?  

WALLACE:  Well, do you think it was over the line?  Do you regret it?  

O’REILLY:  I would have edited it a little bit differently than it was edited.  No, it wasn't over the line.  

We ran that piece on Monday of last week, OK?  Five million people plus saw it live.  You know how many negative letters we got?  Less than ten.  You know how many phone calls came in to Fox News?  Zero, as far as I know.  We checked, OK?

It was 36 hours later that this outrage appeared.  And where did it appear?  Far left websites, far left (INAUDIBLE).   I read every single one.  They're all the same.  

So, this is an attack on Fox News.  That's what it is.  It's happened before.  I thought it was a gentle piece.  

There were a few things in there I felt were over the line.  The little old lady, I would have taken that out.  I should have seen it before, but I’m so busy with the election that I didn't.  

But Watters is a gentle satirist.  He’s worked very well for us.  And we're proud of him.  This is an organized campaign.  This is what they do.  They've done it before.  

WALLACE:  All right.  Let's turn to this.  

O’REILLY:  Yes.  

WALLACE:  Your latest best seller, "Killing The Rising Sun."  Now, I have a confession to make.  I had never read any of the "Killing" books.  

O’REILLY:  You're fired.  You have to get out of the building right now.  

WALLACE:  Until this one.  


WALLACE:  I got to tell you -- no, I’m being honest and serious here, I thought it was gripping.  I learned a lot.  I was thoroughly entertained.  I read somewhere you said history is fascinating, but history books are too often boring.  

O’REILLY:  Nine hundred pages.  

WALLACE:  This is anything but boring.  

O’REILLY:  No, but now you have to go back and read the others.  

WALLACE:  Well, no, I want to.  

O’REILLY:  Right?  You have to read the other five.  


O’REILLY:  Look, what Martin Dugard and I have crafted is a franchise for people who want to know about history, but they don't have time to read 900 pages.  So, we give you 300 action-packed pages.  

WALLACE:  No, I love it.  It's in present tense.  

O’REILLY:  Right.

WALLACE:  You have a lot of details I’ve never heard before.  

O’REILLY:  Dugard is a brilliant researcher.  We put you on the ground when that atom bomb drops.  So, you’re right there on the ground.  We put you on Iwo Jima with the Marines right next to them.  

WALLACE:  All right.  I’m going to talk about the atom bomb because you explore the controversy, which has lasted ever since Hiroshima, about whether it was right to drop the atom bomb.  And you come down firmly on the side it was absolutely the right decision.  

O’REILLY:  Yes, and for selfish reasons.  I wouldn't be here.  My father --


WALLACE:  Wait, wait, wait, because -- no, I want to interrupt you, I want to interrupt you as you always do, because let's put this picture up on the screen.  This is the surprise that comes out in the book, that this guy, an unnamed ensign in the middle of the Pacific during World War II named William J. O'Reilly.  

O’REILLY:  That's right.  So I have an emotional attachment.  

But I decided to write the book because of Reverend Wright, because of President Obama's preacher, when he said goddamn America, the chickens are coming home to roost for Nagasaki and Hiroshima.  

When I heard that, my head snapped.  I said, wait a minute, you know, that's wrong.  Let me -- and some day I’m going to clarify the record.  And here's some day, right here, "Killing the Rising Sun."  

And the interesting thing that we did was we asked the five living presidents if they would have done what Truman did.  

WALLACE:  You have the letters in the back of the book.

O’REILLY:  We have the actual letters.  I asked them to write to me personally.  

WALLACE:  Right.

O’REILLY:  President Obama wouldn't write to me, because I don't believe he would have dropped the bomb.  I don’t believe he would.

President Clinton didn't answer because his wife is running for president.  He didn't want a controversy.  

The other three presidents, Jimmy Carter and the two Bushes, said they would have.  We show you why.  They gave their reasons why.  

WALLACE:  Finally, you have been talking recently about the possibility -- actually, you say the real chance that you might leave "The Factor," because you say you're tired of working this hard.  

O’REILLY:  I work hard.  

WALLACE:  Well, OK.  Let me just say -- and we're roughly the same age.  We've both been in the business roughly the same time.  You're not going anywhere.  

O’REILLY:  You look so much older than me, that comment just startled me.  

WALLACE:  You are not going anywhere.  Why do you even pretend that?  

O’REILLY:  Here's the deal.  Right now in my life, I have accomplished everything that I have ever wanted to accomplish, in my whole life.  It's a miracle.  It is a miracle I’m sitting here across from the legendary Chris Wallace, all right?  I have no more things to accomplish.  

WALLACE:  I understand, but look at my father.  You do it and then you get up the next day and you do it again.  And he didn’t do it at 80 (ph).

O’REILLY:  You know I loved him.  

WALLACE:  I know you did.

O’REILLY:  But I have to evaluate how much, all right, of the acrimony I want to absorb because I am the target.  I am the target, all right?  Every single day of my life.  I have to have bodyguards, all right?  I have to have security.  

Do I really want to do this?  Now, I think that "The Factor" is still a very worthy enterprise, and we help a lot of people.  We employ a lot of people.  

So, my decisions are very, very difficult.  They will be taken very methodically.  But I’m not in it like Andy Rooney until I’m 90.  I’m not.  So, we'll see what happens.  

WALLACE:  Chances you'll be working on "The Factor" five years from now?  

O’REILLY:  I could be fired.  My ratings could go down.  

WALLACE:  Chances you'll be doing it five years from now?  

O’REILLY:  I can't handicap it.  A lot of it has to do with your health too.  Wallace and I are old guys.  We could wake up tomorrow wheezing.  You know, if we do, we have to get out.  

WALLACE:  Bill O'Reilly, everyone.  

O’REILLY:  Thank you for reading the book, Wallace.  It's about time.  

WALLACE:  And now, I’ve got so many more books to read.  The name of the book, "Killing the Rising Sun."  Bill, great to have you here.  Congratulations on the book.  

O’REILLY:  All right.


WALLACE:  Up next, the latest on the damage from Hurricane Matthew.  

Plus, our power player of the week, trying to stand up to hurricane force winds.  


WALLACE:  A look at the latest radar as a weakened Matthew, now a post-tropical cyclone, churns off the coast of the Carolinas.  Matthew brought record flooding to the Carolinas, more than 1 million people along the Eastern Seaboard are without power.  At least 14 deaths are now blamed on Matthew in the U.S. and hundreds more in Haiti.  

We heard a lot this week about the damage different categories of hurricanes can do based on their wind speed.  As we told you last year, there's a place outside Washington that studies this kind of thing.  

Here's our power player of the week.  


WALLACE:  In the 21st century, why do we need wind tunnels?  Can't you do this all on computer models?  


WALLACE:  Dr. Jewel Barlow is director of the Glenn L. Martin Wind Tunnel of the University of Maryland.  Since 1949, they've tested how everything from plane models to cars to roofing performed in high winds.  

And that will tell you how efficient or inefficient it is.  

BARLOW:  Or whether it'll survive in the case of a hurricane.  

WALLACE:  The week we were there, they watched how safety signs for offshore oil rigs would stand up for one hour to 100-mile-per-hour winds.  

BARLOW:  What you can find out is whether that particular product will survive in any given wind speed.  

WALLACE:  Barlow took us inside the wind tunnel, starting with a giant fan.  

BARLOW:  There's a 2,000-horse-power electric motor here that drives this guy.  It's about 20 feet in diameter.  We can generate wind up to 230 miles per hour in the test section.  

WALLACE:  We wanted to get a feel for a wind test.  And student Isaac Roberts agreed to participate.  

BARLOW:  All right.  Andrew, give us 50 miles an hour.  Tropical storm conditions.  

WALLACE:  And he can handle that pretty easily.  

BARLOW:  Pretty easily, yes.  

WALLACE:  But it got tougher at 80 miles per hour, a category 1 hurricane.  

BARLOW:  Yes.  When we -- at 80 miles per hour, nobody can stand straight up like this without the tethers.  

OK, let’s go to 100, guys.  This will be a category 2 hurricane speed.  


BARLOW:  I have to say, he's bolder than most people we've seen in here.  

WALLACE:  And then they cranked up the fan even higher.  

BARLOW:  This will be 115 miles per hour, category 3.  

WALLACE:  So, we're talking about a serious hurricane at this point.  

BARLOW:  This is a serious hurricane.  

WALLACE:  Barlow has been director of the tunnel since 1977, but he reminded me wind experiments are still more precise than any computer model.  

BARLOW:  The discovery, new ways to understand air flow is still very fascinating to me.  Maybe we're slow learners, but we're still learning.  

WALLACE:  And that's the challenge of it.  

BARLOW:  And that's the challenge.  


WALLACE:  At its peak, Hurricane Matthew was a category 4 with winds of up to 145 miles per hour.  

Now this program note, stay tuned to Fox News Channel for coverage of the second presidential debate.  And that’s it for today.  Have a great week.  And we’ll see you next "Fox News Sunday".


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