This is a rush transcript from "Sunday Morning Futures," October 2, 2016. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
MARIA BARTIROMO, HOST: Good morning.
A new glimpse into Donald Trump's tax returns, putting the spotlight on the real state of his finances.
Good morning, everyone. I'm Maria Bartiromo. Welcome to "Sunday Morning Futures".
Leaked documents from one year apparently showing a staggering loss of more than $900 million from Trump. This on the heels of a tough week for his presidential run.
Plus, the feds giving immunity five people connected to Hillary Clinton's e-mail investigation. Will anyone ever be held accountable in this scandal?
Plus, Congress is overriding President Obama's veto of a bill that gives victims' families the right to sue Saudi Arabia over any role it could have played in the 9/11 attacks. This morning, some lawmakers could be having second thoughts about the bill itself.
We're looking ahead on "Sunday Morning Futures" this morning.
BARTIROMO: The New York Times this morning reporting that Donald Trump declared a loss of nearly $916 million in 1995, citing leaked copies of his tax records from '95. The newspaper saying that the losses were so large, they would have allowed him to avoid paying an equivalent amount of federal income tax over an 18-year period.
We should also point out that according to The Times, tax experts found no evidence of wrongdoing connected with these returns.
Trump tweeted out this morning, "I know our complex tax laws better than anyone who has ever run for president and am the only one who can fix them."
Retired Lieutenant General Michael Flynn is an adviser to Donald Trump. He's also the former director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, and author of the book, "Fields of Fight: How We Can Win the Global War Against Radical Islam and Its Allies".
General, good to see you. Thanks so much for joining us.
RET. LT. GEN. MICHAEL FLYNN, ADVISER TO DONALD TRUMP: Thanks for having me on, Maria. Good to see you.
BARTIROMO: Your reaction to this leaked tax return from Trump.
FLYNN: Yes. I mean, I think what Trump tweeted out was exactly right. I mean, he knows more about taxes than Hillary Clinton ever will. And if you pay attention to what Donald Trump has talked about with tax reform, this is exactly the type of issue that "The New York Times" won't report on because this tax, his tax reform will actually bring so much, so many jobs and so much opportunity back into this country. This election, Maria, is about the future and what Hillary Clinton backed by The New York Times and many in the mainstream media are doing, which is basically an assault on anything that they can -- any dirt that they can dig up on Donald Trump.
This is about the future and what Hillary Clinton continues to harp on is the past and the status quo. Donald Trump is exactly right. He knows more about the tax, you know, the tax situation in this country than she ever will. And he knows how to fix it. He has a great plan to fix it.
BARTIROMO: There's no doubt that our tax code allows wealthy individuals to off-set their income with losses in business and in their business ventures. So, there's nothing illegal here.
BARTIROMO: But it doesn't look good. It doesn't look good to hear somebody didn't pay taxes for 18 years, right? Do you think it will impact him in terms of voters?
FLYNN: No. I mean, especially, especially where it's printed in "New York Times." nobody outside of the city of New York or the bubble of Washington, D.C., even reads that, you know, that journal. So, I mean, it's not going to impact anybody that's already in Trump's camp and, frankly, there's a lot of Bernie Sanders voters that are looking at what's going on right now and they are starting to jump ship because some of the things that Hillary Clinton has recently said.
So, this issue is a nonissue. This election is about the future. It is about a positive direction for the United States of America to head and Hillary Clinton represents nothing but the same old stuff status quo and, frankly, just this, these sort of dirty tricks attacks. You know, backed by the media, backed by the mainstream media and especially New York Times and Washington Post all of these. It's just unbelievable to me. People are sick of it, Maria.
BARTIROMO: General, the broader issue here is, I agree with you, he has a very good economic message. The fact is when you talk about lowering corporate taxes and rolling back regulations. There is every reason to believe that that, in fact, will move the needle on economic growth and his plan, will, in fact, have traction.
She doesn't have an economic message as cohesive as he does. She wants to raise taxes, he wants to cut taxes. So, she's got to take him off message. So, whether it is his tax returns, the birther issue, Miss Universe, she's going to throw as many things as possible to get him talking about anything he can other than his economic message.
FLYNN: That's right.
BARTIROMO: That's what happened in the debate. But, so what? I mean, she's being very effective doing it, General.
So, how is he going to prepare for the next debate which, obviously, is in a week. Is he going to be thrown off by more of these issues or is he going to talk about his economic message?
FLYNN: Yes, he's going to be talking about his economic message. You know, job creation and economic opportunities, the lousy trade deals that we have. You know, sort of a big investment in the energy sector, a big investment in sort of our infrastructure.
I mean, we also have to make sure that in this debate that he is ready and I know he's being prepared for this to talk about safety at home, to talk about families and how to help families, you know, sort of build up their own capabilities in this country. We also talk about law and order. We have to talk about our depleted military.
I mean, our depleted military is just stunningly bad right now with the direction that they're going in a world that is so complex. Has to talk about national security. The rise of radical Islamism, both overseas and, frankly, right here at home with the recent comments by the director of the FBI talking about an Islamic Diaspora being created in our own country. Oh my God! I mean, how bad is that? That has to be raised.
Illegal immigration was not even talked about in the last debate by Lester Holt, and one of the themes of the last debate was America's security and illegal immigration and the impact illegal immigration is having in this country.
So, that's another area where he's got to be prepared to talk about and I know that he's being prepared for that and to take no matter what she says about the past, move it to the future. Move it to what Donald Trump is going to offer this country in the future.
And I'm telling you that we, we cannot stand, we cannot stand for any more of the sort of the dead-end opportunities that are being presented by, frankly, Hillary Clinton and her campaign, which is essentially the same as what we've seen in the last eight years with a very slow growth economy, a depleted military and the lack of opportunity in our country. That's what Donald Trump offers for America.
BARTIROMO: Can he do it, though, General?
You know, we know his economic plan. We know that his priority is to keep the country safe and he wants to do that through immigration and a better vetting process. But he doesn't seem to be communicating that, certainly not when he's tweeting about Miss Universe and about his tax returns.
I get what you're saying. This is a nonissue because it was all legal. And he knows the tax code. He wants to change it. He's already said he wants to take away those loopholes that allow wealthy individuals to offset their income with losses.
But he's not communicating when push comes to shove. Next Sunday night is the debate, October 9th, the second debate. How is he preparing specifically?
FLYNN: Yes, I mean, this is a very important debate because it's an opportunity to not only speak to the audience and to answer questions there, but also to speak to the American people about all the many things that he has been talking about.
You know, Donald Trump and I traveled with him very often and gotten to know him. The big messages that he is talking about to the American public and they are resonating. I mean, you know, in Michigan and in Pennsylvania yesterday -- I mean, you're talking about thousands and thousands of blue collar workers and places that are heavily Democratic locations that people are showing up because they care about what the future looks like.
So, I think in Donald Trump's case, it's to continue on this path, this particular week as he heads into this national security debate coming up at the end of the week. And I just think that he just needs to stay on message. He needs to be making sure that he is attacking those issues that Hillary Clinton keeps coming up with. But not talking about the past, but talking about the future.
And talking about what opportunities he is going to provide the American public.
BARTIROMO: All right. We'll be watching.
General Flynn, good to see you. Thanks so much.
FLYNN: Thanks, Maria. Anytime.
BARTIROMO: We will see you soon, sir. Thank you.
Donald Trump gives Hillary Clinton a run for her money in the swing state of Colorado, meanwhile. Should she be worried? We're talking with the Clinton camp, next.
Follow me on Twitter @MariaBartiromo, @SundayFutures. Let us know what you'd like to hear as we look ahead. Trey Gowdy is also joining us, coming up.
Stay with us.
BARTIROMO: Welcome back.
Donald Trump gaining ground in key wing states including Colorado. A new poll shows he leads Hillary Clinton by one point in Colorado, well within the margin of error, of course. Gary Johnson and Jill Stein trailing far behind.
Meanwhile, before Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump square off again, their mates will face off in their one and only vice presidential debate. Democratic Senator Tim Kaine and Republican Governor Mike Pence getting ready for their turn in the spotlight this Tuesday night.
Democratic Congresswoman Diana DeGette of Colorado is House chief deputy whip and a Clinton campaign supporter.
Congresswoman, good to see you. Thanks so much for joining us.
REP. DIANA DEGETTE, D-COLO.: Good morning, Maria. Great to be with you.
BARTIROMO: So, let's talk about Colorado. You probably are surprised by these numbers. Did you ever think it would be this close?
DEGETTE: I actually am not surprised by these numbers. Colorado has been a purple state for years and years. We think it's trending Democratic, but we were expecting the polls to tighten up.
Right now here in Colorado, just like a lot of the other swing states, the whole game is the ground game. How can you get your voters out to the polls? This is where we really think Hillary has a great leg up here in Colorado. She has about five times as many field offices here in the state.
Yesterday, I was in the field office up in north Denver. It was buzzing with volunteers going out, talking to people. Our ballots, our balloting starts in about two weeks. So, the ground game is really important in states like Colorado right now.
BARTIROMO: So, what does Hillary need to do to get a stronger hold on Colorado, do you think? Donald Trump, obviously, spending time there and has been effective and now he's up.
DEGETTE: Well, we're also going to be seeing a lot of appearances from the Clinton campaign. We've already had Secretary Clinton here. We've had President Clinton. In about a week, Tim Kaine will be back in Colorado.
So, we will have a lot of surrogates and the candidate herself coming through. The messages that resonate with Coloradoans are that we need to build all Coloradoans up, we need to build everybody's income, we need to think about college affordability.
We have a large number of millennials moving into Colorado and they're concerned about college affordability and issues like that. So, she needs to continue to get her message out. We need to continue to work.
I will tell you --
DEGETTE: -- yesterday, though, the enthusiasm that I saw among these young volunteers was really heartening to me because Bernie, of course, had a big presence here in the primary. And it seems like they've all shifted over now to strong support for Hillary.
BARTIROMO: You know, it's interesting because the Bernie Sanders supporters are all up in arms now about another comment Hillary Clinton made. She said, Bernie Sanders supporters are living in their mother's basement, which is reports when her mike was hot yesterday. That's been trending.
What does she need to do to really lure that voter who on and on we hear from millennial voters and they'd say, I'm just not going to come out, I'm going to stay home and just not vote at all?
DEGETTE: Well, Hillary Clinton is actually being empathetic with those younger voters who are forced to live in their parents' basements and whose votes need to rise along with everybody else. As we put together economic programs that are going to benefit all Americans.
These millennials -- they're trying to pay off college loans. They're trying to buy houses. These are all things that Hillary Clinton has programs for. So, she's actually --
BARTIROMO: I'm glad you mentioned that because, Congresswoman, you're right, it's an economic-ish issue. That's what's most important to voters today.
And when you look at Donald Trump's economic plan, he wants to lower taxes, he wants to roll back regulations. Very simple, very straight forward.
Hillary Clinton does not have as cohesive a message. Can you tell us in a couple lines how she plans to create jobs and move the needle on economic growth? We just got the GDP last week, Congresswoman. And we're still at 1.3 percent, 1.4 percent growth. That's not going to create jobs.
DEGETTE: First of all, Maria. I think that Donald Trump probably mostly wants to cut taxes for himself. The revelation that came out yesterday that he took a billion dollar loss and didn't have to pay corporate taxes for 18 years. While it might be legal, I don't think it's going to sit well with those millions of Americans who have been having to pay taxes for all of these years.
And Hillary Clinton has a strong plan for tax relief for the middle income. Part of that is going to be making the very, very wealthy pay their fair share of taxes. And I think we can all agree that that is an equitable way to go.
BARTIROMO: Well, the problem is when you raise taxes on the highest earners, you hit small business. And we all know that small business is the area of the economy that is the job creators. So, if Hillary is going to raise taxes on small business, isn't that going to bust up this plan in terms of economic growth?
DEGETTE: Actually, the very wealthiest, people like Donald Trump, that's not small business. The people like Hillary Clinton's dad and other people who are really small business people, they will get tax relief under Hillary's plan.
But trickle down economics has never proven to work. And it certainly hasn't worked recently.
And, if you look at Donald Trump's plans, the tax cuts that the very wealthiest are going to get are astronomical.
DEGETTE: And, frankly, this is not what Americans want to see. They want tax relief for the middle class and for small business.
BARTIROMO: You say trickle down economics hasn't worked recently. But, Congresswoman, President Obama has been in office for eight years and we're talking about economic growth of 1.3 percent, 1.4 percent. So, in fact, it's the Democratic policies that haven't worked in the last eight years.
DEGETTE: Well, actually, I was in Congress when President Obama took office. And he took us back from the precipice, which had been created as a result of the economic collapse under George W. Bush. And now, our job growth is solid, our economic growth is solid. That's what we need to continue and really focus on these millennials and middle class and on small businesses.
Hillary has a whole plan that people can look at. But, certainly giving more tax cuts to billionaires like Donald Trump is not going to be the solution.
BARTIROMO: All right. We will leave it there.
Congresswoman, good to have you. Thank you so much for joining us. We appreciate it.
DEGETTE: Good to be with you, Maria. Thank you.
BARTIROMO: FBI Director James Comey offering an emotion defense of his agency over the decision not recommending charges against Hillary Clinton. What my next guest says the real jury has yet to weigh in as we look ahead on "Sunday Morning Futures."
Back in a moment.
BARTIROMO: Welcome back.
Hillary Clinton's private email server, the subject of heated testimony this week on Capitol Hill. FBI Director James Comey pushed back against claims that the agency to not recommend charges against her was somehow rooted in bias or corruption.
Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMES COMEY, FBI DIRECTOR: You can call us wrong, but don't call us weasels. We are not weasels. We are honest people. And we did this in that way, whether you disagree or agree with the results. This is done the way you would want it to be done.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BARTIROMO: Joining me now is Congressman Trey Gowdy, Republican representative of South Carolina and a member of the House Judiciary Committee.
Congressman, good to have you on the program. Thanks so much for joining us.
REP. TREY GOWDY, R-S.C.: Yes, ma'am. Thank you.
BARTIROMO: Your reaction to Jim Comey there.
GOWDY: Well, no one is calling him a weasel. We just said that we think he's wrong. And he's not the only one that cares about the reputation in the FBI. The FBI belongs to all of us and we have to have confidence in the bureau the morning after the election, the morning after the inauguration.
So, this isn't about politics. He said after the politics is over, you can take a fresh look at it. I want to take a fresh look at it now and I want you to tell me if this conduct does not warrant prosecution, what does? And could a President Clinton do what a Secretary of State Clinton did and, if not, why not?
BARTIROMO: You know, we could go through a list of all of the things that really were questionable, whether it be all of the commentary that Jim Comey gave us that she was so careless with classified information, that she was actually e-mailing in the same cities where hackers could have hacked into government business -- the fact that the FBI released the notes on the Friday of Labor Day weekend, the fact that the interview with Hillary Clinton was not recorded, was not on the record.
But what do you find most problematic throughout all of your reporting and investigating?
GOWDY: A couple of things. Number one, he added an element to the offense that doesn't exist. There is a reason that Congress said gross negligence is enough. There is a reason Congress said you don't have to prove a specific intent to injure the United States. We don't want grossly negligent people handling classified information.
So, he reads an element into the offense and then, I thought he conceded last week that I was right, even if -- even if you have that element, you prove it by showing that the person made an effort to conceal that they lied, that they went to great lengths to withhold their conduct. All of which exist in this case.
So, I disagree with his analysis of the statute. But even if he's right, he's still wrong with the conclusion that he reached.
BARTIROMO: Look, we know that two days before Hillary Clinton did that interview with the FBI, her husband was on the private plane of Loretta Lynch, having a conversation. Loretta Lynch is Jim Comey's boss. Do you believe there was pressure put on Jim Comey to say, OK, report what you want to report, but do not recommend charges.
GOWDY: You know, Maria, the fact that you ask that question proves my point. There used to be a phrase that prosecutors went by and it goes like this, "May justice be done, even if the heavens fall."
Justice is the most important preset concept in our culture. It's not politics. It's not presidential elections. It is a blindfolded woman and the equal application of the law.
And the fact that you had to ask me whether or not a meeting with the spouse of a target on the tarmac that was done surreptitiously could have affected the outcome is exactly what has many of us so upset. The Department of Justice should not be politicized and I think that's where the next series of questions go.
Comey has been twice. He answers the questions. I disagree with him.
But the next questions need to be directed to Loretta Lynch and her, quote, "career prosecutors" about the immunity agreement and what element they thought was missing because, Maria, keep in mind -- if Secretary Clinton wins, can she have this arrangement as the president? Can the next secretary of state have this arrangement with classified information? And if not, why not? If it doesn't rise to the level of a criminal act, then what's to keep the next secretary of state from doing it?
BARTIROMO: Right. And we know that from e-mails, there was a so-called pay to play situation going around the Clinton Foundation. There are e- mails that are missing and where is that investigation into the Clinton Foundation, Congressman?
GOWDY: It's the same place the perjury investigation is. It's the same place the IRS investigation is. It's at the Department of Justice.
And I know that your viewers get frustrated with Congress because they want to know what's next. No one in the legislative branch can convene a grand jury and indict anyone, prosecute anyone and sentence anyone. All of that is done by the executive branch.
So, if you are tired of a politicized Department of Justice, you need to replace that Department of Justice. And that's what the jury gets to do on November 8th. That jury gets to decide whether or not the case has been made with respect to the conduct at bar.
BARTIROMO: So, Congressman, that's my final question here. Are you powerless? What is the end game? Are you going to be able to do anything?
There are 38 days left until the election. Hillary Clinton may be the president and then does this just go away?
GOWDY: Well, Maria, I actually think it's bigger than just a presidential cycle. I think it's about whether or not you have confidence in our system of justice. But your specific question, what can we do?
I can do the same thing I did in my previous job. I can lay out the facts and the evidence for the jury and let them decide whether or not they think this person is qualified to be the leader of the free world with all of the fault statements, with all of the concealment, the fault exculpatory statements, whether or not we as a nation think that that person should pick the next attorney general, whether that person should pick the next secretary of state.
BARTIROMO: All right. We will leave it there. Congressman, we'll be watching. Thank so much for joining us.
GOWDY: Yes, ma'am. Thank you.
BARTIROMO: We appreciate it. Trey Gowdy, joining us there.
Is Congress having buyer's remorse meanwhile over that 9/11 bill that prompted the first veto override of President Obama's tenure? We'll talk to Republican lawmaker who sided with the president as we look ahead this morning on "Sunday Morning Future."
We'll be right back.
BARTIROMO: Welcome back.
The first lawsuit has hit. A woman whose husband was killed in the September 11, 2001 terrorist attack filed a lawsuit against Saudi Arabia. This coming after Congress handed President Obama the first veto override of his presidency this week. Lawmakers voting overwhelmingly in favor of a bill, making it possible for families who lost loved ones on 9/11 to sue Saudi Arabia. Fifteen of the 19 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia.
Joining me right now is Republican, a Republican who sided with President Obama on this, Texas Congressman Mac Thornberry, chairman of the House Armed Services Committee.
Mr. Chairman, good to have you on the program. Thanks so much for joining us.
REP. MAC THORNBERRY, CHAIR, HOUSE ARMED SVCS CMTE: Thanks for having me.
BARTIROMO: So, you don't agree with your colleagues in terms of overriding President Obama's veto.
THORNBERRY: No. I don't. And, actually, it's a long line of presidents and administrations who take that view.
Look, we all understand that 9/11 families have lost something precious and irreplaceable and want to seek justice. But our job in national leadership is to look beyond the emotions at the long-term best interest of the country and especially to protect those men and women who are serving our country all around the world trying to prevent the next 9/11. And the danger with this bill is that whatever we allow in the form of lawsuits, other countries will allow, plus some.
And, so, that will, as the chairman of the joint chiefs and others have said, put our people increasingly at risk around the world.
BARTIROMO: Yes. And this morning we learned that a woman whose husband was killed, actually, is filing a lawsuit against Saudi Arabia. What are the implications of this? I mean, do you think we'll see more lawsuits against Saudi Arabia?
THORNBERRY: Yes, but it's not just Saudi Arabia. Remember, that anyone who makes an allegation that a country abated in some way or didn't do all that it could, would be subject to a lawsuit. So, it could be our best friend, the United Kingdom who gets sued after some terrorist incident.
But just turn the tables for just a second. There is hardly a terrorist incident anywhere around the world where someone could not allege that the United States could have, should have done more to prevent it. We've got more military around the world. We collect more intelligence from around the world.
So, this is going to come back against us. And once you start a lawsuit, then you call witnesses, you subpoena documents. You get into all of that discovery and that puts our people and some of our sensitive information at risk. That's really the reason that this was a mistake and a lot of people in Congress who voted for it because of sympathy for the 9/11 victims, because it's very tempting to override an Obama veto are now saying, well, maybe we need to come back and fix it later.
BARTIROMO: Well, what about the impact to the U.S.'s fight against terrorism? Is this going to impact Saudi Arabia and whether or not it cooperates with the U.S. in fighting terror?
THORNBERRY: Well, it may. And, again, it's not just the Saudis.
THORNBERRY: A number of countries who are working with us very closely see this kind of as a poke in the eye.
THORNBERRY: So, could it affect our relationship? Yes.
More importantly to me, though, is it starts to erode the protections that our military folks, our diplomats, our intelligence folks have around the world. And the increased danger to them is the biggest reason that this, I think, was a mistake.
BARTIROMO: Yes, let me ask you and broaden this out and ask you about where we stand right now in terms of the fight against terrorism. Obviously, President Obama has approved a Pentagon request to send an additional 600 troops to Iraq helping local forces battle the Islamic State. That takes our troops in Iraq to 5,000.
THORNBERRY: Well, it's probably better. We've actually got more people than that in Iraq because the president has set these artificial troop caps. Some people just go in for 30 days at a time and don't count against the numbers.
And, so, we go through all of these gyrations to make it look better politically rather than just ask the military, what to you need to be successful? Which is a better way to go. The other point is, the president has not asked for any more money to pay for this.
So, we've got more people in Afghanistan, more people in Iraq, more exercises in Eastern Europe. More ships going through the South China Sea. But the president won't ask for more money to pay for those things.
So, where does the money come from? It comes out of the pay of our military, getting them new equipment, their training and so forth. So, it cannibalizes our military. That's been the big struggle we have been having with the administration over the past several months.
BARTIROMO: So, why? I mean, why isn't he asking for more money to pay for it and why are we doing it in such a piecemeal way? I mean, this is the 11th troop increase in Iraq since June of 2014, 11 times we've sent dribs and drabs of more troops. Is this cohesive enough? It seems like piecemeal and why, to ask you to respond to the question that you just stated. Why is he not asking for more money?
THORNBERRY: It is piece meal. And the impression one has is that the president is trying to get to the end of his term just playing not to lose rather than playing to win. And that's why he just has these little incremental increases. Just do it enough to get by.
I was in Iraq and Afghanistan a couple months ago and I saw some of the costs of this approach, both in increased dollars and in making it harder for our people to be successful in both Iraq and Afghanistan.
Why didn't he ask for the money? It's because he is using our military as leverage under the theory that he won't ask for more money for the military unless he gets an equal number of dollars for domestic spending. So, he's using them as leverage. And he did this last year when he vetoed the defense bill.
We never had a president use the military in this way, financially, for leverage. It's just trying to run out the end of the clock rather than leave his successor a more safer world and ISIS that really is defeated.
BARTIROMO: Sounds dangerous to be playing politics with our troops. Chairman, good to see you. Thanks very much for joining us. We appreciate your time this morning.
THORNBERRY: Thank you, ma'am.
BARTIROMO: Congressman Mac Thornberry there.
Let's get a look at what's coming up top of the hour "MediaBuzz". Here's Howard Kurtz.
HOWARD KURTZ, "MEDIABUZZ" HOST: Good morning, Maria.
Well, we've got interviews with top people from both campaigns. Donald Trump's campaign manager Kellyanne Conway, Hillary Clinton's top spokesman Brian Fallon at a time when the New York Times potentially broke the law this morning by publishing Donald Trump's 1995 tax returns when he is on a tweet storm against the former Miss Universe extending that story by days. Also, with Trump bringing up Hillary Clinton's marriage in an interview with The Times.
So much to talk about in the wake of this first presidential debate.
BARTIROMO: There sure is. We'll see you in about 20 minutes. Thanks so much.
First, though, a new report on Donald Trump's taxes as he tries to shake off a rough week on his campaign. Our panel will weigh in next.
We're looking ahead on "Sunday Morning Futures."
Stay with us.
BARTIROMO: Welcome back.
A new report revealing Donald Trump's tax filings from 1995, which show a loss of nearly $916 million. Now, according to "New York Times", his business losses were so large that year in '95 that they could have allowed him to avoid paying federal income taxes for as many as 18 years. This coming against the backdrop of a rough week for Trump.
I want to bring in our panel right now. Ed Rollins is a former campaign manager for the Reagan/Bush ticket. He's the chief strategist for a Trump super PAC.
Hillary Clinton supporter Robert Wolf is with us. He's the CEO, former CEO of 32 Advisors. He is a former economic adviser to President Obama.
And Steve Moore is an economic adviser to Donald Trump and a distinguished visiting fellow at the Heritage Foundation.
Good to see you all. Thank you so much for joining us.
Trump taxes, New York Times -- Ed Rollins, what's your take?
ED ROLLINS, FOX NEWS POLITICAL ANALYST: This has not been a good week for Trump. It started with -- he wasn't terrible in the debate, but, clearly, she was viewed as the winner in the public arena. But he has compounded that by his tweeting out this week and attacking the former first Miss Universe, by saying things that basically she laid out for him to -- she had a brain strategy, he fell for it and I think he's going to turn this thing around and start thinking about the future. He can't be talking about fat woo women or girls or anybody.
BARTIROMO: Can he do it?
ROLLINS: The two people he has to talk about is about Hillary Clinton and her plans versus his plans and Barack Obama and how this country -- if I was running his campaign, which obviously I'm not, I'd take his Twitter device and throw it in the middle of the ocean and tell him --
STEVE MOORE, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: I thought we did that a few weeks ago.
ROLLINS: It didn't work. The rest of this campaign has to be about where he will take this country and he can get back in the game that way.
BARTIROMO: Most people know, Robert Wolf, that our tax code allows wealthy individuals to offset their income with losses. He had massive losses in 1995 and it may very well be that all legal, he didn't pay taxes.
ROBERT WOLF, HILLARY CLINTON SUPPORTER: Yes, well, I should just let the two of them keep talking about this past week. But it's kind of been the gift that keeps on giving. The debate ended and he keeps on talking about Miss Universe and then today, 11 more million people will read "New York Times" because he's tweeting about it.
And I would say, that, listen, no question and no one is questioning whether he broke rules or not. But if you're trying to be the working class candidate and you're talking about not paying taxes or you're supposed to be the businessman candidate and you're talking about a billion dollar losses, those two are not great book ends this week.
BARTIROMO: Right. But you know what, Steve? I mean, it seems to me that Donald Trump has been on defense. She put him on defense at the debate and she continues to put him on defense forcing him to defend his tax returns, his business, the birther issue, Miss Universe.
Why doesn't he just speak to his economic message, which happens to be a good message?
MOORE: By the way, you know, I would agree with almost everything you said. I actually thought, funny, I was at the debate and then I watched it on it, TV a few days later because you'd get a different perception watching it on TV and being there.
I thought actually the first half hour of the debate, he was very strong and that was on the economy. That is the one time I thought he had Hillary on the defensive and then it was a bit downhill.
It's very simple. If he keeps talking about the economy, jobs, terrorism and crime on the street, I think he's going to win. The problem, Ed, the reason he lost this week is because we weren't talking about any of those things.
And the last thing Hillary wants to talk about is the economy, because the economy is doing poorly. We had 1.4 percent growth. The numbers just came out the other day and it's pathetic.
BARTIROMO: It is pathetic.
ROLLINS: But he never talks about the other things. So many opportunities and that's the frustration that everyone had. There's so many opportunities to take on a challenger everything from the cyberspace to the economic issue to Benghazi to the Clinton Foundation -- none of that got tapped. She had a strategy, her strategy was to take him, just as you said, to places he shouldn't have gone and he went.
BARTIROMO: She's got to do that because his economic message is better than his.
WOLF: Listen, I would respectfully disagree. Listen, if we're having a debate on security, national security and economic security. I actually think, once again, she would win that debate. The way he speaks about NATO or nuclear proliferation, not anti-proliferation is really just crazy.
And then with respect to his economic plan and I have a lot of respect for Steve, although we disagree on the plan. His plan is fiscally irresponsible and it adds $5 plus trillion to the deficit.
So, you know, we could have an economic debate and, Steve, obviously, this is what --
BARTIROMO: When you say $5 trillion, you're not taking into account any economic growth. He's talking about 4 percent economic growth.
WOLF: But, Maria, you've been in business for a long, long time. Although you look like you've been in a lot less than I have. But I've been in it for 30 years. Yes, usually post-disaster recovery we have better economic growth than we have today.
MOORE: A lot better. But this is pretty bad.
WOLF: Going to 4 percent. It's not real.
WOLF: I know you do, but it's not real.
MOORE: The line that secular stagnation, this is the best we can do, and Trump has to say, no, we're America. We can -- I mean, remember, Ed, we had months where we grew 6 percent, 7 percent. We can do that.
WOLF: But, Steve, you're an economist, usually post the recession, half the economy comes from the growth of the housing business.
WOLF: Let me just finish.
BARTIROMO: It has been eight years, Robert Wolf.
WOLF: No, let me just finish, but post-recession, half of our recovery always comes from housing, OK? That's not where it's going to come from, OK? To say we're going back --
MOORE: Energy is what created --
WOLF: I'd love to have the idea of a clean, renewable.
MOORE: No, it came from oil and gas, that's my point.
BARTIROMO: Trump wants to tap into energy to create jobs and he also says cutting corporate taxes will unleash business activity and they will hire.
MOORE: You know who loves that idea the most? Small businesses, you know, because we're not just cutting that business tax for the big corporations. But that 15 percent tax rate is for every one of the 26 1/2 small businesses --
BARTIROMO: We'll talk about that next -- after this short break. We want to get to the latest polls, the post-debate poll numbers for Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton, what it could mean for the second faceoff which is a week from today.
Back in a minute.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KATE MCKINNON AS HILLARY CLINTON: My opponent's tax plan benefits the top one percent so much it is not just trickle down economics. It's, I don't know, I guess I can call it something off the top of the old dome, what's no prepped whatever. I don't know, I guess I would call it trumped up trickle down economics.
MODERATOR: You just came up with that just now?
MCKINNON: I did, right off the stiff red cuff.
ALEC BALDWIN AS DONALD TRUMP: Our jobs are fleeing this country. They are going to Mexico. They are going to Gina. I will stop that. If Hillary knew how, she would have done it already, period, end of story. I won the debate. I stayed calm just like I promised and it is over.
Good night, Hofstra.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BARTIROMO: The first presidential debate not only sparking laughter on "Saturday Night Live" but also a bounce in the polls for Hillary Clinton.
New Fox polls show the former secretary of state opened up a narrow lead in a four-way race, and that margin goes bigger in a head to head match up with Donald Trump. We're back with our panel, looking at these poll numbers. Look, a lot of people thought she won the debate and it looks like she did get the bounce.
ROLLINS: It is still a very close race. Two or three points you can basically move around. Next Sunday, it's a townhouse type debate. He has to prepare and have a good debate. He has to have a good debate to get the polls back up again.
Then, we get down to organization and what-have-you, which obviously I've said on this show. She has a more energized base and I think to a certain extent.
MOORE: Maria, can I bring up something about this trumped up trickle down.
BARTIROMO: Sure. This has been repeated throughout the week and back to your previous guest talked about this. With all due respect it has worked every time. I mean, it worked in the 1960s under John F. Kennedy when we had big tax rate reductions. It happened under Reagan, obviously. You know this, Ed, we had the big boom.
But then interestingly enough, when we balanced the budget under Bill Clinton one thing that really contributed, we cut the capital gains tax and had a flood of new revenue and that is what Trump wants to do is cut capital gains.
And, Hillary, by the way, he's got to hit her -- she wants to raise the taxes. How are you going to create? I mean, really, how do you create a recovery, faster economic growth when you have 1.4 percent by raising taxes? I just -- I don't get the logic of that.
WOLF: Which do I want to talk? First about --
BARTIROMO: No, I want to hear the logic of raising taxes and thinking that that's going to lead to economic growth.
WOLF: Post the debate on the electoral map, very, very strong week for the secretary. I think 10 of the 12 swing states right now have her up and a bounce of them up north of 5 percent. So, it's going to be a race on the electoral and not national polling.
With respect to the taxes, if you look at the plans, no matter how you slice it, an independent analysis says his adds to the fiscal deficit, and his loses jobs because --
WOLF: Let me just finish, Steve.
BARTIROMO: How can it lose jobs?
WOLF: How am I going to be able to finish?
BARTIROMO: Finish it.
WOLF: Usually, it is five against one.
BARTIROMO: Go ahead. No, no, we just want to know how to --
WOLF: When you think about his immigration plan, we live in a consumer- driven country. When you are going to deport millions of people, spending is going to come down. So, you look at his plan, spending goes up. Taxes go down, OK? Adds to deficit and actually reduces jobs.
Moody's Analytics have come out where his plan loses millions of jobs.
BARTIROMO: I don't believe it.
MOORE: Moody's is the one that said that the Obama stimulus plan was going to create millions of jobs. It was the biggest flop ever. So, they just don't have any credibility.
WOLF: It wasn't the biggest flop ever.
BARTIROMO: Final few seconds here, guys.
WOLF: Seventy-five straight weeks of job creation.
BARTIROMO: The next debate is incredibly important, obviously. That's a week from tonight. That's -- I should say, it's a town hall.
ROLLINS: There's a vice presidential debate that really won't make a whole of difference, and then you have the big debate next week. Congress is out of session. He really has to drive this thing and drive it on his agenda, which is fixing the economy and making America safer.
MOORE: He has to stick to the --
WOLF: I think we should let Donald keep tweeting.
BARTIROMO: Your side wanting it.
BARTIROMO: Thank you so much.
MOORE: Focus on the economy.
BARTIROMO: Great panel.
Have a great Sunday, everybody. I'll see you tomorrow on the Fox Business Network, 6:00 a.m.
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