Mike Pence on Trump's biggest night of his political career; Joel Benenson on Clinton's game plan for taking on Trump

This is a rush transcript from "Fox News Sunday," September 25, 2016. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.


Charlotte police release video of the shooting of Keith Scott.  And the first presidential debate is now just hours away as Trump and Clinton get ready to go head to head for the first time.  


WALLACE:  On the eve of the big face-off, we'll ask Republican running mate, Indiana Governor Mike Pence, how Trump is preparing for the biggest night so far of his political career.  

DONALD TRUMP, R-PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE:  They say she's been practicing for the debate.  Some people think she's sleeping.  

WALLACE:  And as Hillary Clinton gets ready, we'll speak with her chief strategist Joel Benenson about her game plan for taking on Trump.  

SEN. TIM KAINE, D-VA., VICE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE:  We're all going to be glued to our chairs.  

WALLACE:  Plus, Clinton and Trump weigh in on race and policing after the latest shootings.  

HILLARY CLINTON, D-PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE:  It's unbearable, and it needs to become intolerable.  

TRUMP:  The rioting in our streets is a threat to all peaceful citizens.  

WALLACE:  We'll ask our Sunday panel how the shootings and the violent protests will factor into the debate.

And our power player of the week: the first African-American woman to run the world's biggest library.  

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Libraries are the original treasure trails, because you never know what you'll find.  

WALLACE:  All right now on "Fox News Sunday."


WALLACE:  And hello again from Fox News in Washington.  

We'll get to the first presidential debate in a moment, but first breaking news in two stories.  Police have arrested a suspect in the deadly shooting of five people at a mall in Washington state.  He is 20-year-old Arcan Cetin, an immigrant from Turkey who is a legal, permanent resident of the U.S. Authorities say he was unarmed but, quote, "zombie-like".

And charlotte police have released dash cam video of the fatal shooting of Keith Scott that protesters and family demanded be made public.  The video, which is disturbing, will show Scott on the left side of the screen backing away from his SUV with his hands down.  We freeze the video when four shots are heard.  All sides are calling that video inconclusive.  


WALLACE:  All sides are calling that video inconclusive.

Now to politics.  With the polls tightening ahead of tomorrow's first presidential debate, we have questions for both sides.  

We begin with the Republican vice presidential nominee, Indiana Governor Mike Pence, who joins us live from Des Moines, Iowa.  

And, Governor, welcome back to "Fox News Sunday."

GOV. MIKE PENCE, R-IND., VICE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE:  Thank you, Chris.  Good to be back.  

WALLACE:  Let's start with breaking news on the debate story.  After the Clinton camp announced that it was inviting billionaire and Trump critic Mark Cuban to sit in the front row at the debate, Trump invited Gennifer Flowers, who once had an affair with President Clinton, to also sit in the front row.  And she has accepted that invitation.  

Two questions: Why would Trump do that?  And will Gennifer Flowers actually be there tomorrow night?  

PENCE:  Well, look, Hillary Clinton apparently thinks this is an episode of "Shark Tank."  But this is America, Chris.  It's serious business.  The American people have an enormously important choice to make.

And Donald Trump's tweet was really mocking the fact that Hillary Clinton was trying to distract attention away from this moment in our national life where the American people are going to see a strong contrast between the broad-shouldered leadership of Donald Trump, who's prepared to rebuild our military, reduce taxes, repeal Obamacare, stand by our Constitution, and --


WALLACE:  If I may, sir, because we've got limited time.  I want to ask you, will Gennifer Flowers be there?  

PENCE:  Gennifer Flowers will not be attending the debate tomorrow night.  Donald Trump was using the tweet yesterday really to mock an effort by Hillary Clinton and her campaign to really distract attention from what the American people are going to be focused tomorrow night, which is on the issues, on the choice that we face.  I mean, Hillary Clinton essentially wants to continue the policies of this administration that have weakened America's place in the world, stifled America's economy, walked away from our most cherished constitutional principles.

And I just -- I can't wait to see the debate tomorrow night because I just know that Donald Trump, who is a leader who literally embodies the American spirit, is going to be able to present that message and present that choice to the American people.  

WALLACE:  But, Governor Pence, I’ve got to ask you, because as "The Wall Street Journal" wrote, it shows people top concern about Donald Trump is, one, his temperament, and two, his language, especially towards women.  So why would Trump even go down the road of bringing up Gennifer Flowers, who once had an affair with the president.  

PENCE:  Well, the question really should be why was Hillary Clinton and her campaign, you know, inviting some celebrity basketball team owner to the debate to sit on the front row, someone who has mocked and ridiculed my running mate.  

WALLACE:  Do you really see those two as equivalent?  Do you really see those two as equivalent, Mark Cuban and Gennifer Flowers?  

PENCE:  Well, look, you know, Mark Cuban has been out there saying some pretty tough stuff about my running mate.  Mark Cuban knows as much about national security as I do about professional basketball.  

But the truth is that Donald Trump has a unique way of communicating to the American people.  And I think his tweet yesterday was all about demonstrating that here we have in Hillary Clinton and her campaign just a couple of days before a debate of enormous importance in the life of our nation -- she was trying to distract attention, her campaign trying to play games with front row seats.  

Donald Trump's not about that.  He's going to focus in this debate tomorrow night as he has throughout this election on the issues the American people care about.  I think that's why you see the momentum in this campaign.  Here in Iowa last night before an enormous crowd here, I was in North Carolina earlier this week, in Williamsburg, Virginia, in the pouring rain with 650 --


WALLACE:  Governor, I don't want to interrupt, but I want to try to get --  

PENCE:  And that’s why Donald Trump is on his way to the White House.

WALLACE:  I want to try to get to some questions.  You say you want to talk issues.  Let's talk issues, because one of them clearly in the first debate tomorrow night in the wake of the shooting in Charlotte this last week is going to be race and policing.  

After looking at the videos that were released by Charlotte police last night, does Donald Trump and do you believe that the police acted reasonably in the shooting of Keith Scott?  

PENCE:  Well, I have seen the videos.  I think at this point we just need -- we need to let the investigation go forward.  I was in North Carolina yesterday, and I think we should pray for the families of those who lost their lives in these police shootings, both in North Carolina and in Oklahoma.  You know, we mourn with those who mourn.  We do well to remember that any loss of life is precious.  

The American people are entitled, the people of Charlotte are entitled to swift and immediate investigation that's transparent and be confident that justice is served.  But people are entitled also to peaceably assemble, but they're not entitled to engage in violence against persons or property.  Police see (ph) now for several days in a row, those demonstrations have been peaceable.  

But at the end of the day, we need to step away from efforts by Hillary Clinton and others to paint law enforcement in this country with the broad brush of racial bias.  Hillary Clinton this week, before all the facts were in, in the wake of an African-American police officer involved in a police-action shooting that cost the life of a citizen in Charlotte, referred to the implicit bias in policing.  

You know, Donald Trump and I don't believe that law enforcement in this country is a force for racism or division.  Donald Trump and I know what the American people know, that law enforcement in this country is a force for good.  Police officers, whether they be white or African-American or Asian or Hispanic or Latino, police officers in this country are the best of us.  They put their lives on the line for us every day.  

So, we just truly do believe that -- let these investigations go forward.  Let the public be confident that the facts will be presented, justice will be served.  But let's set aside these efforts to demean law enforcement in this country with a broad brush of racism and move forward in a way that supports law enforcement.  

WALLACE:  Governor, here is one of Trump's main solutions that he laid out this week to try to stop violence in our inner cities.  Here he is.  


TRUMP:  I would do stop-and-frisk.  I think you have to.  We did it in New York.  It worked incredibly well.  And you have to be proactive.  


WALLACE:  But, Governor, in New York where Trump says it was such a success, 80 percent of those stops, four in five, were stops of either African-Americans or Hispanics, and as a result, a federal judge ruled that the stop-and-frisk policy was unconstitutional.  

PENCE:  Well, I know there was one court decision in that regard, but stop-and-frisk literally saved lives in New York City when it was implemented.  It's been implemented in cities around the country, and it's on a sound constitutional footing. This is -- this gives law enforcement officers the opportunity with probable cause to be able to stop and question individuals that they think may be involved or about to be involved in criminal activity.  

And Donald Trump specifically was talking about the crisis of criminality and murder in Chicago.  I mean, my parents are both born and raised in Chicago.  My grandfather came from Chicago when he immigrated to this country.  

It is a great and wonderful city.  But to see the avalanche of violence in that city, Donald Trump is the kind of leader that's going to say, let's take a policy that worked in New York City, that reduced violent crime in New York City in stop-and-frisk, and bring it to Chicago, Illinois.  And that's just the kind of leadership he's going to continue to provide.  

WALLACE:  Governor, I want to ask --  

PENCE:  He's a man you'll find is impatient with failure and impatient with --  

WALLACE:  Governor, I want to ask you about another form --


PENCE:  Chicago can be safe, but --

WALLACE:  If I can, sir, I want to ask you about another form of Donald Trump's leadership.  In the wake of the New York bombing, another big topic on Monday night is likely to be how to protect the homeland.  Here's what Trump said about that.  


TRUMP:  It's time to put firm immigration controls in place.  Extreme vetting, right?  Extreme vetting.  


WALLACE:  But Ahmad Rahami, the suspected bomber, came to this country as a child in 1995 and is a naturalized U.S. citizen.  So, how would extreme vetting have prevented Rahami from these bombings that he allegedly committed?  

PENCE:  Well, Chris, last week -- well, Chris, last week, there were several terrorist attacks.  There was one in Minnesota, a knife-wielding terrorist in this country legally under the color of the law, injured nine people.  Thankfully, no loss of life.  

We had Mr. Rahami involved in terrorist bombings in New Jersey and New York City.  And we don't know the motivation of the permanent legal resident in Washington state who took five American lives last night.  But I think what you heard Donald Trump talking about was just simply we need common sense back in our immigration policies in this country.  We need to begin to recognize that we're at war with radical Islamic terrorism.  

Hillary Clinton won't even name radical Islamic terrorism.  Donald Trump has a plan to confront it.  A part of that includes a full review of our immigration policies, suspending immigration from territories and nations that have been compromised by terrorism.  And Hillary Clinton actually wants to increase the refugee flow from Syria by 550 percent.  

I think what Donald Trump was talking about in the wake of those terrorist attacks a week ago is that we simply have to take a step back.  We have to start doing things differently.  We have to start putting the safety and security of the American people first.  And that's precisely what Donald Trump will do when he becomes president of the United States.  

WALLACE:  Governor, I want to ask you about one final question and one final issue.  "The Washington Post" reported this week that the Trump Foundation paid out $250,000, more than a quarter of a million dollars, to settle various lawsuits against Trump and Trump businesses.  

Now, Governor, as I’m sure you know, there are laws against what's called self-dealing where a charity spends money for the personal benefit of a person or his businesses.  

PENCE:  Well, I think the -- I think the Trump Foundation has responded to those questions and will continue to answer any issues that arise.  I know that The Washington Post reporting on this has been very, very sketchy.  They've been found to be factually incorrect on a number of --


WALLACE:  No, but, sir, let me ask you -- sir, if I may, let me ask you about one specific case and that is the case of the flag and Mar-A-Lago.  The city of Palm Beach sued because they had a flag that exceeded zoning barriers.  There was a settlement under which Mar-A-Lago, the for-profit club run by Donald Trump, was going to pay $100,000 to a charity.  

Number one, he didn't pay it.  The club didn't pay it.  The foundation paid it.  And secondly, Donald Trump has contributed a dime to his own foundation since 2008.  

What kind of charity is that, sir?  

PENCE:  Well, I know that the Trump Foundation, the family can answer all of those questions about that specific instance and others and they have.  I think the American people are even more interested --  


WALLACE:  Well, sir, no, they haven't.  They have not explained -- they have not explained, sir. The Washington Post has asked.  They have not explained how it was the foundation that ended up spending money instead of Trump or Mar-A-Lago.  They also haven’t explained why he hasn't any contributed money since 2008.  

PENCE:  Well, look, these answers are all fair game.  But I just wish there was as much interest in the activities of the Clinton Foundation, that we know accepted tens of millions of dollars from foreign countries and foreign donors who were then given access to Hillary Clinton while she was secretary of state.  

I mean, the truth of the matter is, what you see in the Clinton Foundation -- and the Trump Foundation is a private charity by a family that’s helped many worthy causes over the years.  The Clinton Foundation -- Hillary Clinton was literally warned during her confirmation hearings could be used by foreign donors and foreign governments to gain access and gain favor while she was secretary of state.  And yet she went on ahead and did it.  

And the fact that now e-mails have come to light that have shown a direct connection between those that were contributing to the Clinton Foundation and access that was given to those people, to the calendar and opportunities to meet with Hillary Clinton as secretary of state are deeply troubling to the American people.  

WALLACE:  Governor --  

PENCE:  That's the kind of pay to play politics the American people are tired off --

WALLACE:  Governor, I’m going to cut you off.  

PENCE:  -- and Donald Trump is going to bring it to an end when he becomes president.  

WALLACE:  Governor, I’m going to cut you off because we're going to be talking to a representative of the Clinton campaign next.  And I’m sure you would like me to ask him that question.

Governor Pence, thank you.  I understand you'll be in the audience tomorrow night.  Safe travels, sir.  

PENCE:  I sure will.  Thanks, Chris.  

WALLACE:  Up next, we'll ask Hillary Clinton's chief strategist how she plans to take on Trump.  

Plus, what do you think?  How high are the stakes for this first debate?  Let me know on Facebook or Twitter @FoxNewsSunday and use #fns.  


WALLACE:  A look outside the Beltway at Hofstra University in Hempstead, New York, the site of tomorrow's first presidential debate between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton.  And you can see, they're still putting the stage together.  

Joining us now from New York to discuss Clinton's plan is her campaign's chief strategist, Joel Benenson.  

And, Joel, welcome back.  

JOEL BENENSON, CLINTON CAMPAIGN CHIEF STRATEGIST:  Thanks, Chris.  Thanks for having me.  

WALLACE:  Well, let's start with the debate.  I'd like your reaction to the fact that Donald Trump invited Gennifer Flowers and now the news from Mike Pence that, no, she won't be there.  

BENENSON:  Look, I think -- listen, these debates are for the American people, Chris.  I think this is going to be a very watched debate.  I think there are very high estimates of how many people will tune in.  

I think what they want to hear is a full substantive debate between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump so they can make a judgment about which one of these people actually has the experience, knowledge, and judgment to implement plans that will make a real difference in their lives.  That's what Hillary Clinton's going to be focusing on, talking to the American people about their lives, what she's going to do for them, how she's going to get things done that'll help them get ahead.  

WALLACE:  Joel, you're taking the high road now, but some would say your side started it because you guys tweeted out yesterday that Mark Cuban, who is a very loud Trump critic, was going to be sitting in the front row.  In fact, before the Gennifer Flowers news even broke, the Commission on Presidential Debates was very unhappy with that.  

BENENSON:  Well, I didn't hear anything about what the commission said.  I think Mark Cuban is a successful businessman.  He believes in things like profit sharing to help get wages rising.  I think he did that at some of his businesses.  

I think that's important, the economic lives of people.  I think the fact that so many business people are endorsing Hillary Clinton because she has an economic plan that will work for growing our economy but growing it in a way that's fair and that helps get incomes rising for working Americans, which is the biggest economic challenge we face.  As opposed to a candidate like Donald Trump, who says he thinks wages are too high in America and he should get rid of the federal minimum wage.  

I think it's legitimate to have a business person sitting there who's been advocating for you because of your economic policies.  

WALLACE:  As I discussed with Governor Pence, in the wake of these terrible police shootings, the violent protests in Charlotte, that will almost certainly be a prime topic tomorrow night.  I want to ask you about something Clinton said this week.  Here it is.  


CLINTON:  We have two more names to add to a list of African-Americans killed by police officers in these encounters.  It's unbearable.  And it needs to become intolerable.  


WALLACE:  But, Joel, Charlotte police say that when Keith Scott was shot, that he was armed with a gun.  And when you look at the wife's video, it's apparent that the police shouted at him to drop the gun 12 times in 38 seconds.  

So, why is Clinton siding with the protesters against the police, saying that this is intolerable and not a reasonable response from the police?  

BENENSON:  Well, I think what Secretary Clinton was addressing was that we have a disproportionate number of incidents in the past year or two in which unarmed African-American men, African-American men have been shot by police in some of these circumstances.  

So, I think she was saying that the results here are troubling.  There have been communities even in North Carolina like Greensboro that have been studies about disproportionate stops, traffic stops of African-Americans that showed even though African-Americans carry fewer weapons in their cars, they get stopped more.  And I think that's what she was talking about, the disproportionate effect here of what's happening on the streets.  

Look, these are tragedies.  They have been happening with increasing frequency.  They're troubling.  I think you showed the video and said both sides say it's inconclusive what happened in this incident, but I think the more important thing here is that we have to have, and as Hillary Clinton has said, better relations between communities and police.  We have to have respect for the law and respect by the law.  I think that's how we --


WALLACE:  But, Joel, I got to break in here because the comment that we just showed, she wasn't talking about police relations and general sort of 30,000 feet.  She was talking about police shootings that end up with African men dying.  I’m asking you, does she have any reason to believe that the charlotte response in the shooting death of Keith Scott was unreasonable?  

BENENSON:  Well, but Chris, I think your question kind of undercuts the question you're putting to me.  She was speaking generally about what some people feel has been a pattern over a year and a half to two years of African-American men, most of them, the vast majority of them unarmed, by police or dying at their hands.  

WALLACE:  But --  

BENENSON:  That's an undeniable --  


BENENSON:  -- that’s been a pattern.  

WALLACE:  Wait a minute.  The police say that Keith Scott was armed.  

BENENSON:  Well, right now they say that.  Have they said their video shows that clearly?  

WALLACE:  No, but they have a picture of a gun.  


WALLACE:  They have a picture of a gun.  They -- you hear in the tape the police saying a dozen times, "drop the gun".  The police chief, who is African-American, says that the police acted responsibly.  But Hillary Clinton seems to think they didn't.  

BENENSON:  I think we ought to wait for the end of the full investigation, Chris.  And, unfortunately, there have been other shootings like this where police said somebody was armed, they turned out they weren't.  Let's let the investigation run its full course.  

WALLACE:  Would you agree that Hillary Clinton should do that as well?  

BENENSON:  Well, I think she did.  Her comment was a general comment about, as I said before, Chris, and I think it is not an unfair or inaccurate comment that we have had too many shootings here of black -- usually black men, many of them unarmed in these circumstances, where the police say they felt threatened, the person had no weapon.  

We have to get to a better understanding of how to stop those kinds -- look, Hillary Clinton has been a supporter of law enforcement throughout her career.  She's the woman who after 9/11 went to fight for health benefits for our first responders.  She saw what they did down there at the Trade Center afterwards, going into buildings to rescue people, breathing air that officials told them was safe.  Turns out it wasn't safe.  She went to bat for them to get the health benefits they needed to recover.  

WALLACE:  All right.  Let's turn to another issue.  We learned on Friday that as part of the FBI investigation into Hillary Clinton's private e-mail system that Cheryl Mills, her chief of staff when she was -- Clinton was secretary of state, that she was one of the people, five people, who received limited immunity.  How do you explain that, Joel?  

BENENSON:  Well, Chris, I think you're probably familiar with what limited immunity is.  It's fairly routine when police and law enforcement are investigating a particular issue and you're sitting down with them to give fool cooperation, turn over materials, hand over computers, BlackBerrys, whatever.  They narrow their scope of their investigation to the issue at hand.  

So, a limited immunity is anything else is irrelevant to them at that.  They're looking at the specific investigation.  And that's what limited immunity means, Chris.  I believe you know that.  

So, it's fairly appropriate and routine when people are sitting down with them, turning over a wealth of materials that have nothing to do with the investigation at hand.  

WALLACE:  Well, it had something to do with the investigation.  

BENENSON:  No, no --  

WALLACE:  They wanted the laptop for a reason.  


WALLACE:  If I may just asked question.  If Clinton -- well, I’m trying to ask a question, Joel.  


WALLACE:  If Clinton did nothing wrong, if no one on her staff did anything wrong, why did Cheryl Mills ask for and receive immunity, limited immunity from criminal prosecution in this case?  

BENENSON:  Because the reason for that, Chris, is to that if you're handing over a vast amount of materials, something like your computer or your BlackBerry or whatever.  It could be files that they want that are not germane or relevant.  It could be conversations with anybody else, your accountant, somebody.  Law enforcement offers this up to you to encourage you to sit down and provide --

WALLACE:  Well, they didn't offer it to her.  Cheryl Mills asked for it.  

BENENSON:  But it's a fairly routine process, and you know that, Chris.  So, I think -- let's talk about it.  You know that prosecutors and investigators, when they're investigating --

WALLACE:  Actually, I'll be honest.  It may be true.  I didn’t -- I don't know that.  

BENENSON:  Can I finish the answer quickly?  

So that they can get a good look at the information that's germane to their investigation.

WALLACE:  Finally --  

BENENSON:  That's what they wanted.  

They wanted to make sure they had access to Cheryl Mills' information about e-mails.  Not anything else.

WALLACE:  Finally, I’ve got about a minute left, and I want to ask you about one other thing.  You heard Mike Pence go on about the differences between the Trump Foundation and the Clinton Foundation.  He said the Clinton Foundation was pay-to-play.  You gave money to the foundation, you got special access to the State Department.  

Your response to that?  The calendar does show that more than half of nongovernmental people she met with were donors to the foundation.  

BENENSON:  No, no, 85 people out of over 2,000 people.  

WALLACE:  No, 85 of out 150.  


And, Chris, as you know, two weeks after the initial headlines said half the people -- nongovernmental people she met with, The A.P. took down their headline, their statement, acknowledged it was wrong and sloppy because they only looked at a small sliver of the nongovernmental people she met with.  

But the important point on the Clinton Foundation, and maybe Governor Pence's proximity to Donald Trump is going to rank him on the record breakers of people who have been fact checked for lying and dissembling.  The fact is the Clinton donation (ph) discloses all their donors.  Governor Pence should know that.  

The Clinton Foundation money has gone -- has an "A" rating from charity navigator because 90 percent of the funds it raises go to life-saving AIDS drugs for half the people with AIDS around the world, better food for our school children, and neither of the Clintons ever took a dime from that foundation.  In fact, they donated millions to their foundation.

WALLACE:  Well, I --  

BENENSON:  As opposed to Donald Trump, who didn't put a nickel in for seven years.  In fact, if he's given any money to charity through it, it was other people's money, not his own.  

WALLACE:  Joel, we're going to have to leave that.  I suspect there are a few things you said there that the fact checkers will look at, but you know that’s --

BENENSON:  I welcome them.  

WALLACE:  There you go.  Thank you.  Thanks for joining us.  Always a pleasure to talk to you, sir.  

BENENSON:  Thanks, Chris.  

WALLACE:  Up next, we'll bring in our Sunday group to handicap the big debate.  

Plus, what would you like to ask the panel about how it could reshape the race?  Just go to Facebook or Twitter @FoxNewsSunday.  And we may use your question on the air.


WALLACE:  Coming up, Trump accuses Clinton of copying his policy on immigration.


TRUMP: Extreme vetting, right? Extreme vetting.

CLINTON: I am absolutely an advocate for tough vetting.


WALLACE:  We'll ask our Sunday panel about the candidates' plans to keep America safe, next.



CLINTON: Why aren't I 50 points ahead, you might ask? Well, the choice for working families has never been clearer.

TRUMP: American hands will rebuild our nation, not the hands of people from other countries.


WALLACE:  Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump both trying to rev up their supporters ahead of tomorrow night's first debate. And it's time now for our Sunday group.

Gerald Seib, Washington bureau chief of The Wall Street Journal, Fox News political analyst Juan Williams, Julie Pace, who covers the White House and the campaign for the Associated Press, and Rachel Campos-Duffy of the Libre Initiative, a non-profit that educates Latinos about conservative positions.

I want to start with a fascinating poll from "The Wall Street Journal" this week. Let’s put it up on the screen. People were asked their top concerns about the two candidates. About Trump, 33 percent said not the right temperament for commander in chief. I talked about this with Mike Pence. Twenty-seven percent said his language about women, immigrants, and Muslims. For Clinton, 36 percent said her dealings with Syria, Iraq, and Libya, 29 percent, her private e-mail server.

Gerry, when I saw that, my reaction was, well, Trump's got an easier challenge because it's all about how he acts, and with Clinton it's about what she's done. And then Trump went ahead and played the Gennifer Flowers card.

GERALD SEIB, THE WALL STREET JOURNAL: Well, OK, there you have it. So you -- you sort of have actions versus attributes, you know? Some actions that trouble people, some attributes that trouble people. I don't know -- I think, by the way, those questions frame pretty well the -- the debate that -- that we're going to see them on Monday night because those are the attack points, I think, for both sides. But I don't know which two people think are easier to swallow, actions, which might have been mistakes, or attributes, which might never -- never change. It's very difficult to know for sure.

But I do think the -- that in a sense Hillary Clinton has a problem in the -- in that the, you know, the e-mail debate is not going away. I think Donald Trump, as you just suggested, has a problem because people think the temperament maybe isn't changing contrary to what was said earlier this summer.

WALLACE:  Do you -- do you think that the Gennifer Flowers invitation was a -- a gaffe and that he was wise to get out of it?

SEIB I think probably so, yes. And, I -- you know, it was a classic Donald Trump tweet, wasn't it? I mean, you know, it was thrown out there to kind of like change the subject and then it was pulled back fairly quickly as well. So I think that one will be blown over by tomorrow.

WALLACE:  Rachel, you are a Trump supporter.

RACHEL CAMPOS-DUFFY, THE LIBRE INITIATIVE: Well, my organization is non-partisan --

WALLACE:  I understand.

CAMPOS-DUFFY: But I am voting for Trump, yes.

WALLACE:  OK. What do you believe are the keys for him, both in terms of making the affirmative case and in contrasting it with Hillary Clinton?

CAMPOS-DUFFY: Well, I think it's very clear that she has more experience. She has the right resume. She has all the knowledge. And I think it's his job to say, hey, yes, she has all that stuff, but what are the decisions she's made? Has it given her better judgment? And then to prove that his business experience has given him a better gut instinct on -- on making better decisions and using his judgment.

And I think in the case with her, he has a lot to work with. I mean she made decisions about Benghazi, even starting as early as the green revolution, not supporting that, the decision to pull out of Syria. So he's got to prove like, yes, she's got all this information and knowledge and this great resume, but what has it done to make your life better? And -- and then -- and then also to make the leap that this is really about her and -- and this is -- this is her just, you know, doing it for her own political power or whatever.

WALLACE:  Juan, same for Clinton, what are the keys to her -- for her in terms of either winning or losing this debate?

JUAN WILLIAMS, FOX NEWS POLITICAL ANALYST: I think she has to, in some sense, change the narrative, Chris, from the focus that Rachel was just talking about, e-mails, Benghazi, or questionings about her judgment. I think she has to get back to very clearly saying she's a resilient player, a tough political player, someone who has worked in terms of rooting out corruption, going back to Watergate days, but also a mom, a grandmom, someone who has been focused on health care, on production of jobs. Create that image to the audience to make it clear she's a human being.

And then secondly, I think she has to be very tough on Donald Trump. I think she has to say, no shape shifting. No getting away from the birther controversy. No getting away from the fact that you’ve excited white nationalist attitudes in this country. No getting away from what you said about Mexicans as rapists and murders or your misogynistic comments about women in this country. You see that already in the advertising being run by the Clinton campaign.

But, finally, I think there are lots of people who say, you know what, I don't care about what Donald Trump said or did. He's a disrupter. And I just can't stand the status quo in this country. I think politics is dysfunctional. And she has to be very clear in saying to those people that there’s such a risk in voting for Donald Trump. It’s not just it’s going to disrupt the political status quo, it’s going to hurt the country and the economy.

WALLACE:  Julie, I want you to weigh in on this, how -- how personal, how negative, how nasty do you expect this to be because, you know, it's one thing to have a campaign ad or a surrogate say it or even to say it on the stump, but when you're ten feet away from each other, it’s -- it’s --

JULIE PACE, THE ASSOCIATED PRESS: It's a totally different dynamic when you’re standing next to your opponent than when you’re talking in an interview or when you’re doing a TV ad. And we've seen in both cases these candidates getting personal with each other. I think for Clinton, you probably are going to see her try to use things Trump has said in the past. This has been just a really core part of her argument. Don't -- don’t take it from me. Listen to his actual words. You've seen this in the ads.

For Trump, I think, it actually is a tougher question. You've seen his -- his advisers say he is a counterpuncher. So if she goes after him, he will go after her. And he has not shown an ability, when he does get into that attacking mode, that what they call the counterpunching mode, to keep it restrained, to keep it focused on policy. I think if he does start going after her, it will be difficult for him to focus on policy and her attributes as opposed to more personal matters.

WALLACE:  We asked you for questions for the panel. And we got this on Facebook from Marilyn Marks. She writes, "who will be most influential with the undecided voters in determining ‘who won?’ TV networks? Newspaper editorials? Blogs? Candidate claims?"

Gerry, you and I have been at this for a while. How do you answer Marilyn? I mean because the fact is, oftentimes we may think, you watch the debate, you think, well, so-and-so did really well, and then the next day and as the week goes on, the narrative changes.

SEIB: You know, interestingly, I think the voters themselves are the most influential because, as you suggest, Chris, we think something instantly after a debate is over, and it turns out that's not the way voters saw it at all. I've become very leery of our instant reactions to these debates because as -- as it seeps in with voters, they sometimes draw different conclusions. And a lot of times it depends on what they're looking for. And in this case, you know, are they looking to gauge Donald Trump's temperament or his ability to handle issues? Now they’re interested in -- in Hillary Clinton’s ability to show that she's got the experience, or do they want to see if they can like her? I don't know what people's expectations are going in, but I think that, to a large extent, determines the way they read these debates.

WILLIAMS: You know what, I just want to quickly add that I think we're in a historic moment. I remember in 2012 thinking, this is an interesting debate between President Obama and Mitt Romney, and realizing that all my colleagues were on Twitter and on FaceBook, Chris, and that they were in a sense determining how the public viewed the outcome right from the start. And I noticed when Alec Baldwin and I forget who else, but these were --

WALLACE:  That great political thinker.

WILLIAMS: Yes. But they were all -- they were on Twitter and they were influencing the public perception so that before the candidates had even finished, it was clear that Obama had lost.

WALLACE: I -- just quickly, I will say that -- that I’ve talked to a key person in the Obama campaign at the -- after the campaign was over and said, they were not prepared for that.


WALLACE: And they were -- you -- you agree, that they were -- they were totally surprised. The Romney people were much more mobilized. One of the few areas where the Romney camp did better than Obama. And they -- and the Obama people realized in the middle of that debate, we're getting swamped on Twitter.

PACE: I remember -- see, I was -- I was at that debate and I remember seeing the Obama staff at the campaign bar hotel after the debate and they were still going through the motions. Yes, we think he did pretty well. We're going to talk about this, this, and this the next day, without realizing that already the narrative had been set. But, of course, we have to point out, that even though Romney did very well in that first debate and was generally perceived the winner, he lost the election.

CAMPOS-DUFFY: But the sheer number of people watching is going to change. I mean people are saying we could get 100 million people watching. And so by -- by definition, your personal opinion is going to matter more, and it's not going to be up to the media or the campaigns to spin it.

WALLACE:  All right. But they will try to spin it.

CAMPOS-DUFFY: They will try. That’s right.

WALLACE:  All right, we have to take a break here.


WALLACE:  Up next, police shootings and terrorism become the hot topics on the campaign trail this week. We'll discuss the issues and their political impact when we come right back.




RAY DOTCH, KEITH SCOTT’S BROTHER-IN-LAW: What we know and what you should know about him is that he was an American citizen who deserved better. That is our position, and it should be yours.


WALLACE:  Keith Scott's brother-in-law Ray Dotch responding after Charlotte Police released video of Scott’s shooting. And we're back now with the panel.

Well, right after the shooting, both in Tulsa and also in Charlotte by police of black men, Clinton called it, as we discussed with Joel Benenson, intolerable, and she said that Trump had no answers.


CLINTON: He certainly doesn't have any solutions to take on the reality of systemic racism and create more equity and opportunity in communities of color and for every American.


WALLACE:  Rachel, your thoughts about Clinton's comments about this incident and about Trump this week.

CAMPOS-DUFFY: Well, I think that the case of -- of -- of this -- this shooting is one where we also should look at, you know it's with out of state people coming in. It's clear that it's a swing state. And I think that she's clearly trying to play up the card here, because, as you saw this week, Obama is trying to -- to get African-Americans to be as excited about her as they were about him. I mean he actually said it's an insult to my legacy if you don't vote for me. So I think politics is playing into this. He hasn't had a lot of clear answers. He said he would go into frisk -- frisking --

WALLACE:  Stop and frisk.

CAMPOS-DUFFY: Stop and frisk. But I don't think that he’s -- he should play into it because I think, obviously, ginning up the racial -- the racial card here will benefit her, not him.

WALLACE:  Juan, here's what Governor Christie said this week about Clinton's comments. And let's put that on the screen. "She's exactly the kind of politician that law enforcement loathes because she jumps to conclusions for political gain. Your reaction?

WILLIAMS: Well, I think what he's trying to suggest that somehow Donald Trump is the law and order candidate and that if you want law and order, if you're discomforted, has been I think overwhelmingly we all are by riots and bad behavior, Rachel mentioned people coming in from outside to foment trouble, that's what he's playing to. Race is a key issue in this campaign, Chris, no getting away from it. Ninety percent of Trump voters are white. I think it's a third -- only be a little more than a third of Clinton supporters are minorities. And from her perspective, she's giving voice to legitimate grievance that her base really feels. That, in fact, large scale across this country we know that if you are a black -- poor black male or Latino male, your chances of getting shot by police are much higher than if you're a white person. And this plays then into the racial politics of the moment.

But I think we have a large social crisis on our hands. And, unfortunately, given some of Donald Trump's statements, you know, his kicking around with people like David Duke now --

WALLACE:  No, wait, wait, wait, wait.


WALLACE:  No, he has disavowed David Duke.

WILLIAMS: Yes. Oh, and what has David Duke said? He supports him.

WALLACE: Well, I mean the father of Omar Mateen showed up at the Clinton rally --

WILLIAMS: Yes, I'm just telling you, huge difference in terms of the consequence for us as a society. If you are looking for someone who polarizes or someone who heals, I think Clinton’s got a good (INAUDIBLE).

WALLACE:  All right, there goes the panel. Go ahead. Have at it, Rachel.

CAMPOS-DUFFY: Well, I was just going to say that at least in -- in the case of opportunity, I think Trump is talking about school choice, he’s talking about --


CAMPOS-DUFFY: Opportunity in these minority communities.


CAMPOS-DUFFY: And I think that she's just offering more of the same. And they're looking at their incomes and they’re saying they haven't moved. Poverty is greater in -- in -- in African-American and Hispanic communities. So I think that, you know, she can talk about race, but she's at a deficit here when it comes to talking about opportunity because she's offering more of the same and he's saying I will change --

WILLIAMS: Well, when he talks about -- Rachel, when he talks about kicking out, a deportation force, kicking out everybody, when he talks about Mexicans as rapists and murderers, when he speaks in this way, he is not talking about increasing opportunity. And when he talks about stop and frisk, as Chris said to Joel Benenson, he's talking about an unconstitutional tactic that unfairly burdens young people of color.

WALLACE:  All right, let me bring -- let me bring the other two panelists in.


SEIB: Well, look, you know, if you actually get beyond the -- the emotions of the moment and you look at what Hillary Clinton has proposed, she's talking about, let's do something to affect the way police forces in this country a trained, spending a lot of money, a billion dollars, to -- from Washington, and people can agree or disagree with whether that's the right starting point, but let's address the core issue of how police are trained in this country because the training clearly affects the way they act on the streets. That’s the first thing I would say.

The second point I would say in this regards to the debate tomorrow night, I think it would be unfortunate if this comes down to a conversation about whether you're either for police or you’re for the black men in the streets of America because it's not a binary choice. And that's, I think, the dangerous part of this discussion right now.

WALLACE:  Julie?

PACE: No, I totally agree. I mean with so many issues that we've dealt with in this campaign, police shootings among them, it almost seems like you either have to be on the side of the police or you have to feel like there is some racial element to it, that there's no possibility that you can both support the police and also think that as a black man in particular or a Hispanic man that you might be at greater risk of getting shot. And it's just a problem in our politics that we break things down in this really simple way.

CAMPOS-DUFFY: But I think people are frustrated that after eight years of an African-American president that we haven't really moved forward in the racial divide in this country. And I think that may be an opportunity for the other side.

SEIB: Well, and I think nobody feels that more acutely than African-Americans.

CAMPOS-DUFFY: Absolutely.

WALLACE:  But -- but I -- I want to go to this question because you say it's not a binary choice, Gerry, but on the one hand you had Trump saying about the protests, drugs played a big role in this, without any proof that drugs played any role in it. And, on the other hand, as I discussed with Joel Benenson, you have Clinton saying that this shooting is intolerable when it may well have been totally justified.

SEIB: Well, yes, but that’s -- that’s the point. I mean it’s -- it’s a situation that everybody can agree is not really an ideal one, to say the least. But there are a lot of -- there are a lot of causes and it's not one cause or another, it's a -- it’s a combination of factors. And I think that's why these debates are difficult because politics doesn't lend itself to gray, it lends itself to black and white.

WALLACE:  But I guess -- I guess the point I had is, obviously, it's a tragedy that this man died and it may turn out that the police acted reasonably or unreasonably, but we have seen there are some police shootings, Julie, that are justified and some that aren't.

PACE: Right, and I do think that it is hard to look at all of these as a totality. I mean you can look at trends, obviously, which is important to do. It is important, as a leader -- I -- I think about this every time something comes up and we -- we look to Barack Obama's statements. I think this is one thing that he is actually good at. I know it frustrated people, but he is good at trying to wait for information to come out. Again, our politics don't lend to that, but --

WILLIAMS: You know what I --


WALLACE:  Go ahead -- go ahead, Juan.

WILLIAMS: I just worry that there's a lot of white denial about what is a very racial situation that unfairly burdens people of color in American society. And that in the midst of this campaign --

WALLACE:  Yes, but, forgive me, and we’re really running out of time. I -- I don't think anybody is saying that -- that -- that you couldn't improve black policing. And that doesn't mean every single shooting is -- is unreasonable and unjustified. Look at Ferguson.


WILLIAMS: If you focus -- if you focus on the raindrops, you can miss the coming storm. And there is a storm in this country over this issue for number one political (ph) --

CAMPOS-DUFFY: It was a black officer -- it was a black officer and we haven't even mentioned that in this.

WALLACE:  Thank you, panel. See you next Sunday. I'm sure we'll continue this conversation and I’m sure they will tomorrow night.

Up next, our "Power Player of the Week," making history as the new head of one of the nation's oldest institutions.


WALLACE:  The job description could not be more daunting, to maintain a universal collection of human knowledge. And now someone new has that assignment. Here's our "Power Player of the Week."


DR. CARLA HAYDEN, LIBRARIAN OF CONGRESS: I'm smiling because, for a librarian, this is the ultimate library.

WALLACE (voice-over): Meet Carla Hayden, the new librarian of Congress. She's in charge of 162 million items, the world's biggest collection of books, movies, maps, and music. And it keeps getting bigger.

HAYDEN: Fifteen thousand items come in to the Library of Congress, and about 12,000 of those items are actually added to the collection every day.


HAYDEN: So help me God.

WALLACE:  Hayden is just the 14th librarian of Congress since 1802, and she's the first professional librarian.

HAYDEN: Each librarian of Congress has had a different background. There have been lawyers, scholars, authors, politicians.

WALLACE:  Of course, a couple of other things set her apart.

WALLACE (on camera): You are the first woman. You're the first African-American. What does that mean to you?

HAYDEN: There are certain professions that have a preponderance of females. Being a woman at the helm of the world's largest library is very significant. African-American in a role that symbolizes knowledge and scholarship and information is also very empowering.

WALLACE (voice-over): The library's original mission was to be the research arm for Congress, which is still one of its roles.

HAYDEN: There's a tunnel that allows members and their staff and the library staff to go back and forth.

WALLACE:  It's been called the most beautiful public space in America, built in 1897 for $7 million, which was under budget and ahead of schedule. But there's criticism the library has not kept up with the times in putting its collection online. Hayden means to change that.

HAYDEN: In her own handwriting she said, I had been pushed around all my life and felt at this moment that I couldn't take it anymore.

WALLACE:  Hayden showed us the hand-written notes of Rosa Parks when she refused to go to the back of the bus. Now the Parks collection has been digitized.

HAYDEN: Imagine a child or a person looking at this, having that sense of history right here.

WALLACE:  Hayden fell in love with reading as a little girl.

HAYDEN: I would read a cereal box. I would read anything.

WALLACE:  And when he discovered libraries --

HAYDEN: Libraries are the original treasure chest because you never know what you'll find.

WALLACE:  Hayden was the head of the Baltimore library system during the 2015 riots there. She was determined to keep a library open in the midst of the unrest.

HAYDEN: There was no other place open, and we were that life center for that community at a time.

WALLACE:  Carla Hayden says libraries are opportunity centers where people can advance themselves. And she calls librarians the original search engines.

HAYDEN: You have a person who has a -- a lifetime of getting lost in books and libraries and bookstores to be the head of the world's largest library. That's pretty exciting.


WALLACE:  As part of her digital initiative, Hayden plans to go on Twitter each week sharing one of the library's treasures with the public. This week it's the first bronze casting of a mask of Abraham Lincoln's face made while he was president.

Now this program note. Tune to Fox News Channel all day tomorrow for special coverage of the first presidential debate, "The Battle at Hofstra."

And that's it for today. Have a great week. And we'll see you next "Fox News Sunday."

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