Fatal police shooting in Charlotte sparks rioting

This is a rush transcript from "The Five," September 21, 2016. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

GREG GUTFELD, CO-HOST: Hi, I'm Greg Gutfeld with Kimberly Guilfoyle, Juan Williams, Jesse Watters and she climbs ant hills for exercise, Dana Perino, "The Five."

Last night, riots erupted after a pair of deadly shootings. My observations:

It's impossible to know all the facts this fast, but in the world of "social injustice," one can't afford to wait. After terror, our leaders say "don't jump to conclusions," but not in these situations. Why is that?

Fact is humans lump unique acts together, if it suits them. Meaning: No matter how different Tulsa was from Charlotte, it's easy to form a theme from both making it less complex and more black and white. Even if a police officer and victim is black.

What drives each act, though, is compliance. Once that first step goes south in a traffic stop, it creates a cascade of actions that can go south, too.

The Tulsa and Charlotte shootings are way different. But they all started in one place: Perceptions of noncompliance and reactions ramp up as part of training.

Each time an officer -- black or white -- confronts someone, noncompliance triggers the training, the adrenaline, the fear, the unbending mind of law enforcement.

Last, compliance doesn't just apply to cop work, but to life. Lately it seems we're abandoning any form of conflict resolution. We can't discuss this stuff, without retreating to specific sides. We've all been there in our unbending minds, where emotion transcends truth.

And so violent protest seems less rare these days; as media and activists green light it as a replacement for reason, facts become annoying hurdles to action.

I just want to play a clip of Chief Kerr Putney from Mecklenburg Police Department. He is describing yesterday's shooting of Keith Lamont Scott, which is a far different shooting than Terence Crutcher, which is -- when you look that video, it's incredibly disturbing. But here is Chief Kerr Putney, talking about Keith Lamont Scott, the shooting of him.


KERR PUTNEY, CHARLOTTE-MECKLENBURG POLICE CHIEF: He exited the vehicle armed with a handgun. The officers observed him get back into that vehicle at which time they approached the vehicle to engage the subject. The officers gave loud, clear, verbal commands which were also heard by many of the witnesses. They were instructing the subject once he got out of the vehicle to drop the weapon. In spite of the verbal commands, Mr. Scott, as I said, exited his vehicle armed with a handgun as the officers continued to yell at him to drop it. He stepped out posing a threat to the officers, and Officer Brently Vinson subsequently fired his weapon, striking the subject.


GUTFELD: So Juan, when you hear about how that unfolded and how different it is from the Tulsa shooting where is, where the man is unarmed and it looks like it just looks really bad. It tells me that these things cannot be grouped together, because when you group these events together, you create a story line that leads to things like riots or like Dallas, unfortunate events that people were emotion drives them to wrong answers. Does that make sense?

JUAN WILLIAMS, CO-HOST: Yeah. I think, you know, obviously compliance is key because I have said this to my sons, one of whom has a heavy foot on the gas pedal. You know, hey, when a cop stops you, you got to keep your hands in plain view, you got to be respectful. I've heard people on this network say, oh, you know, gosh. Why would you say such a thing about police? But let me tell you, if you are black, you say such a thing to your kids about police. So compliance is very real. Now the other side of this as we saw in the Tulsa shooting --


WILLIAMS: But we've also seen in Minneapolis this year. I believe it was Minneapolis .


WILLIAMS: . where the guy was in the car and he says to the officer, "I'm reaching for my wallet."


WILLIAMS: I have a permit to carry a gun. And he still gets shot. And I think there's a lot of fear on half of people like myself that, you know what, you show up and it's, you know, let's say you had a couple drinks Greg. Let's say your medication is not right and a cop says, hey, you better do this and you are slow or you look a little stumbling and then suddenly .


WILLIAMS: . bam. You know, what did I do? You suddenly -- this is what the sister of the guy in Tulsa said.

GUTFELD: Right --

WILLIAMS: That brown skin, and especially if you are a male and if you are large, you know what, suddenly you are criminalized, just the sight of you is taken as significant threat to the officer. You are talking about .


WILLIAMS: . officers responding because they feel threatened. I'm very sensitive to that. I think I wouldn't want to be one of these officers. I praise God for having officers who do such a difficult job. But I'm saying, as a citizen, it hurts me that I have to fear for myself, my family, my children, when we deal with police.

GUTFELD: Yeah. But the -- Kimberly, the idea of grouping these stories together as story like when you look at Tulsa, you can see how horrible that is. And you can that see perhaps there was, there were choices that shouldn't be made .


GUTFELD: . obviously. But you look at this other one with Mr. Scott, he was armed. I mean, when we group these things together, we eliminate facts to create a story. And that to me is is dangerous.

GUILFOYLE: And you eliminate meaningful discussion based on the unique factual circumstances of each situation. So you might have write then at the wrong narrative and it's grouped together, and people can easily misplace the facts from one and attribute it to the other story. There isn't the clarity, the focus and the learning moment that you might have to be able to talk to the people -- talk to the public, explain the circumstances without prejudging the other situation they were able. This is just a big problem. This is an epidemic in this country and here is, two more examples that they're very different in terms of the facts and how it played out and ultimately, the end conclusion.

GUTFELD: Yeah. Jesse, this, this -- the other issue I find here is when they ascribe intent to the shootings, as though a police officer wakes up in the morning and decides, "This is how I want to end my day."


GUTFELD: It's not like terror where a person goes out, plants a bomb because he wants to kill people. The police officer, the black officer in North Carolina didn't wake up and say, "This is -- I'm going to go out and shoot somebody."

WATTERS: Yeah, police save lives for a living. They don't take lives for a living. But let's look at the facts here, there's a narrative out there that police are just killing unarmed black people. Just in 2016, police killed 702 people. Only a hundred and sixty -three of them were black. That's only 23 percent. So that narrative is out the window. And if you look at the facts of this case, this guy Scott, he had a DUI conviction, he had an assault conviction. He was armed. He didn't obey commands. He was shot; a black man by a black police officers. But the nation of Islam comes in, in the scene and says, "Black people in Charlotte need to now boycott all white businesses. That makes no sense. Then which contributes to the riots, the daughter of this victim .


WATTERS: . comes now on Facebook live and say, "He was just reading a book." So that's one of those "hands up, don't shoot" narratives that's false. They recovered no book. And the thing goes viral and now people are rioting. Martin Luther King never rioted. He never looted. And that's one of the reasons he was so effective. So if black Americans have such a problem with police officers stereotyping them as criminals, the reaction shouldn't be to then, go commit criminal acts out in the street, loot and cause mayhem. It's not a great look.

GUTFELD: You know Dana, if you control for compliance, 100 percent that the only error would be on the police. And so isn't that kind of, and you will always, afterwards, have that area investigated, at least that's what we are seeing now.

PERINO: Well, in this heightened environment, police are going to be held to account or at least have to answer to things. But I think that's an improvement over past decades, Juan. But I was actually -- if I could ask Juan a question. I'm curious about the fact that it was a black police officer that was the officer that shot the man in North Carolina.


PERINO: Does that change anything in terms of the thinking or the discussion or any of the online chatter that you hear?


PERINO: Or is it about cops --

WILLIAMS: It's about police.

PERINO: It's not about white cops, it's about police.

WILLIAMS: Yes, it's about, you know, it's about the thin blue line. I think Greg has pointed out on the show that, in fact, I think it's black and Latino officers are more likely .


WILLIAMS: . to fire quickly. And this officer was plainclothes, Dana. But even so, he was with officers who were in uniform. But the issue becomes not one of is it a black officer or a white officer, it's the idea that police are either fearful or quick to respond, use excessive force in dealing with black people or Latino people. But especially -- and I was thinking, this is an important distinction, poor people, people who are living often times dysfunctional, crazy neighborhoods where you do have a lot of the drugs, the gangs, kids were out of control is that, the question is, OK, sometimes you have bad behavior taking place. Is that, is that a license then for people who have the authority of law to use excessive force?

GUTFELD: And it's also well -- and the police officer is, his job is to go into that environment. And if it is unstable environment, that adds, you know --

WILLIAMS: It does.

GUTFELD: An extra emotional, you know, conflict --

WILLIAMS: Right. So the "Washington Post" has a statistic that speaks to what Jesse was talking about and said, 24 percent of the people who have been shot so far this year, fatally shot by police are black people.


WILLIAMS: Now black people are 13 percent of the population, similarly about, you know, when it comes to black men, about 6 percent of the population, it's 40 percent. It's unbelievable.

WATTERS: But they are committing disproportionate amounts of the crime and they are having more interactions with police officers .

WILLIAMS: Jesse. Jesse

WATTERS: . in the inner city.

WILLIAMS: Jesse, listen. Let's talk about -- OK, how many black versus white doing drugs? Similar numbers Jesse.

WATTERS: Listen, heroin is a big problem.

WILLIAMS: I understand.

WATTERS: Crack is a big problem.


WATTERS: It's infesting the inner cities.


WATTERS: Where as people live in the inner cities, mostly blacks. So that's part of the problem.


WATTERS: You are seeing a lot more densely populated regions infected with drug abuse and drug trafficking.

WILLIAMS: Jesse, we have terrible drug problems in this country.

WATTERS: They are concentrated in the urban are areas and that's where close contact with law enforcement takes place.

WILLIAMS: I think we have terrible drug problems in this country in Appalachia, up in the, you know, OxyContin is a plague in this country.


WILLIAMS: Heroin now, out in all kinds of areas. I'm just telling you, the concentration of law enforcement --

WATTERS: OK, so the police are less racist in Appalachia?

WILLIAMS: I don't --


WILLIAMS: I will leave that to you, Jesse.



GUILFOYLE: Yeah, I just think that we also want to be very careful. There's a lot of different statistics and things out there. One of the things we should be up in arms is about, that I'd like to see them talk about the communities and then churches, you know, throughout to this country is black on black crime in areas that suffer, you know, disproportionately, socio-economically. And you see they are struggling for jobs, they are struggling to have safe communities and clean streets. So, I want to be very careful to not just focus all of it on police officers, because we've also seen some incredible leadership coming out of the police departments .


GUILFOYLE: . in African-American a police chiefs, police superintendents coming forward, speaking, being part of the solution as well. And discussions like this, yes, are very helpful. And, you know, one loss of life in a situation like this is one too many.

GUTFELD: Well, that's the thing -- that's the second part of this story is that it's so hard to talk about this.


GUTFELD: You know, I was -- I listened to a podcast with Sam Harris and Hannibal Buress, talking about this. And they were talking about how hard it is to talk about this. It turned into an absolute brawl, a total fight. And with the conversation was about having a conversation. It's because we are too busy -- where everything is becoming team sport.

PERINO: Can I make one last point?


PERINO: I know we got to go. In your monologue, you are talking about like grouping these two things together when actually the facts are separate. But I also think that let's put -- obviously, I'm not a black person, but if I could try to put myself in their shoes --

WATTERS: Obviously.

PERINO: So the other night, on Saturday, when we had terrorist attacks in New York, New Jersey and Minnesota, we immediately, as Americans, although, aha! You connect the dots because you think -- OK, well, this is obviously Islamic terrorism for being perpetrated against United States. So, when two events happen on the same day and there -- you basically start a brushfire with social media, it's understandable that people .

GUTFELD: Exactly.

PERINO: . group them together instead of waiting for the facts.


GUTFELD: Yeah, it's a natural human behavior .


GUTFELD: . to seek --

PERINO: To aggregate.


GUTFELD: It's an evolutionary (inaudible) --


PERINO: And so it's hard to --

GUTFELD: The patterns

WILLIAMS: Yeah, but it's not the case that we have so few. I mean, it's just, it's constant.

PERINO: Right.

WILLIAMS: It's almost like a constant flow around the country. And so the specifics that you talk about may be real, the differences, even the malicious stuff about no hands up, which Jesse said was true. But this is just so constant, so regular, and not all of it is fatal, a lot it is just excessive force.

GUTFELD: All right. We could end there. Ahead, Trump argues that black communities in the U.S. are in the worst shape they've ever been. How he says he can fix them, next.


WILLIAMS: Yesterday, Donald Trump made this declaration about black America.


DONALD TRUMP, PRESUMPTIVE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: We're going to rebuild our inner cities, because our African-American communities are absolutely in the worst shape that they've ever been in before, ever, ever, ever.


WILLIAMS: Wow. So how would Donald Trump rebuild struggling communities? He was asked that question earlier at town hall with Sean Hannity.


TRUMP: We need jobs. We need jobs, desperately need jobs. So obviously, we need the schools, we need the education. We need all sorts of things, and especially the inner cities. The inner cities are -- I mean, can you say never, but certainly one of the worst stages ever in the history of the inner city. It's so unsafe where you walk down the street and you get shot or your child gets shot. So we're going to really fix the inner cities. We're going to spend a lot of time. The democrats have run them for a hundred years, mostly uninterrupted. I mean nobody else, (inaudible) uninterrupted, and you see what's happened.


WILLIAMS: The full interview airs tonight on Sean Hannity show, 10:00 p.m. eastern. Don't miss it.

GUTFELD: I hope they play the new ad.


GUTFELD: Just kidding. I'm kidding, Sean, just a joke.

WATTERS: What ad, joke.



GUILFOYLE: Noticed the camera stayed on the wide shot.

WILLIAMS: Holy molly.


WILLIAMS: But Gregory, on to more serious issues.


WILLIAMS: Gregory, the worst ever?

GUTFELD: Yeah, it might, that might be a stretch. I mean, there are things in the past that are better off --


GUTFELD: . but they are worse. But he, but we are seeing spikes in violence, and roughly 20, 25 cities across the United States. Even as overall, violence goes down, we're still seeing these increases, but I mean -- yes, he has an interesting way of going back -- when he is saying what do you have to lose, he is saying -- he's initially saying you are not going to get anything new from Hillary. It's like watching an old "Law & Order" rerun. And he's, and he is guaranteeing that it's going to be different with me. It's going to be -- you say, peak behind door number three. It might actually work, because his numbers are going up with blacks.


GUTFELD: I say --

WILLIAMS: Why? They weren't up in an "L.A. Times" poll, it was --



WILLIAMS: You know, like a tracking poll. But the "Wall Street journal" has him at 1 percent.

WATTERS: But don't --

GUTFELD: That hasn't it gone up to something like --

WILLIAMS: Why not? It bumps up and then he said, "I'm doing better," but I'm saying, he's gotten the average, anyway. Dana?

PERINO: Well, part of this is not only that he might believe what he is saying and care about what he is saying, but he also wants to depress African-American turnout for Hillary Clinton .

WILLIAMS: Correct.

PERINO: . even if they don't come out to vote for him .

GUILFOYLE: Mark (ph).

PERINO: . having those few people that might, he might be able to pick off are good. There are, I think a couple things that are working in his favor that he could, actually talk more about this. One of them, in particular Juan, is something you will agree with, which is school choice.

WILLIAMS: Absolutely.

PERINO: And we know that the NAACP and that Hillary Clinton have said, "No more on the school choice thing," that she's not for that. But we actually know that it works, we know that the evidence of that, just this year in New York City. The other thing is that the government really -- in order to improve people's lives, there's actually not much that the government can actually do. A thing that a president can do is to help us try to set conditions for economic growth, but people really need opportunity. The other thing that somebody like Donald Trump could do, working with the governors, in particular, and even the mayors is the overregulation of all things is for when you want to become a entrepreneur or if you want to become a plumber, if you want to become an interior decorator, if you want to braid hair, if you want -- all the regulations and the costs of entering into that is really bad. And the last thing I would say is, the -- as a conservative, what you would want is smaller government and we can rebuild the cities. One of the ways that you actually can work with communities is to support the faith-based communities, something that President Bush did. President Obama pulled back on that, but I think that that was money well spent in those communities.

WILLIAMS: Well, that's an important point on school choice. I would think that you should also emphasize that it seems like Hillary Clinton was a supporter of school choice. Then when the unions got involved, and teachers unions .

PERINO: Right.

WILLIAMS: ... they pushed her and she caved.

PERINO: Right.

WILLIAMS: I find that appalling. Anyway, Jesse, I want to see, what you see, though, from Donald Trump, he is doing some outreach now, but in fact, the lament about Donald Trump from the black community is he was exciting white nationalist, anger and grievance for most of this campaign. And now suddenly, he is paying attention to black people?

WATTERS: It's funny how the democrats and the media always criticize republican candidates for president because they don't go politics for the black vote. And then the first time a republican comes along and politics for the black vote and the same media and democrats criticize that person. I think he is doing legit outreach. When I go to these neighborhoods, no one likes Hillary. The other reason they want Hillary in the White House is they want Bill back in the White House.

WILLIAMS: (inaudible).

WATTERS: Maybe they don't like Trump, but people say they are open to Trump. And you have to admit, Juan, blacks have suffered under President Obama's policies.

WILLIAMS: I don't believe that.

WATTERS: Crime is up in these inner cities, he said, Wages are down. Home ownership is down. Poverty is up. Food stamps are up. What do you have to lose? --

WILLIAMS: Well, I think here's --

WATTERS: You know what I mean?

WILLIAMS: And you have to be --

WATTERS: You have to roll the dice. That's what he is saying, let's roll it.

WILLIAMS: That's what he is saying, but I'm saying to you, you have an opportunity to lose your progress. Here is a guy who is talking about Obama where he is, he's not really an American, trying to undercut the first black president --

WATTERS: But Don King endorsed him.


WATTERS: So I think that's going to change the game.


WILLIAMS: And I mean - well, anyway, my point to you is, he is playing footsie with David Duke, I mean with the white national --

WATTERS: Wait a second. Wait a second, Juan --

GUILFOYLE: All right.


WATTERS: Reverend Wright was Obama's pastor for 30 years --

WILLIAMS: Oh, yeah. That's the equivalent of --


WILLIAMS: Come on.

WILLIAMS: OK. All right, all right, all right. Kimberly --

GUILFOYLE: To be fair, I mean, he did disavow. So I mean, it's unfortunate, you can't control all your supporters. Look at some of the people that support me.

GUTFELD: I know.

GUILFOYLE: Yeah. So, but in this -- I'm kidding for all of you out there.


GUILFOYLE: You are fine. You are fine. We're good. We're good.

WILLIAMS: We love them.

GUILFOYLE: But you know, Trump, at least he is trying. And at least he is asking the question, and he is putting forth the narrative. It's like, just give me a moment. Why don't you ask yourself? What have the democrats, what the liberals done for you in your school, in your communities, for your jobs, for your families over the past 50 years? You have been loyal to them. You have trusted them. You have counted and, in fact, depended on them. Do you feel that you have been let down? If you do, please listen to me. Please give me a chance to do right by you. That's important.

WILLIAMS: Can I suggest one question?

GUILFOYLE: And at least, maybe other republicans coming forward will also follow suit.


GUILFOYLE: Because you haven't seen that kind of rhetoric and that questioning since, you know, basically 1964 --

WILLIAMS: So very, very quick --


PERINO: Oh, I think that's fair.

WILLIAMS: Yeah, that's what I'm saying very quickly to you, if this was another republican, I might say, aha, Kimberly -- but when I hear Donald Trump, who had to settle a suit with the Justice Department because he was accused of discriminating against black and Latinos in housing here in New York, I think this guy? Is this guy really the one?

GUILFOYLE: OK. Well, I mean, again, as a lawyer, that's an accusation --


WILLIAMS: I know he settled.

GUILFOYLE: I -- sure. People settle things all the time, every day .

WILLIAMS: All right.

GUILFOYLE: . across this country. That's how the system works.


GUILFOYLE: Nevertheless --

WATTERS: Settled.


GUILFOYLE: Nevertheless, you know, you have, you should know the specific circumstances. I'm just talking about what the inroads he is trying to make and the fact that, yeah, maybe Washington -- "The Wall Street Journal" has it, but since - what is it? Since September 10, it's gone up to 19.6 percent, the traffic -- the tracking poll of African-Americans .

WATTERS: That's (inaudible) time.

GUILFOYLE: . from 3 percent. Yeah.

WILLIAMS: And it's back then--

GUILFOYLE: So who knows?

WILLIAMS: It went back then.

GUTFELD: But Juan --

GUILFOYLE: Who knows?

GUTFELD: Juan, everybody is making a big deal about Don King's endorsement, calling him a convicted murderer. He endorsed Obama twice.

WILLIAMS: Is that right?


WILLIAMS: Well, oh, gosh.

GUILFOYLE: That's what --

PERINO: They're all democrats.



GUILFOYLE: That was a misunderstanding, too.

PERINO: They were.

GUILFOYLE: The unfortunate death was due to the frustration of the ghetto. That was his --

WILLIAMS: All right. Make sure to catch Trump's town hall on Hannity tonight, 10:00 p.m. eastern.

GUTFELD: I love you, Sean.


GUTFELD: I love you, just kidding.

WILLIAMS: Ahead, do you recognize either of these two men?


WILLIAMS: The FBI is looking for them. They were seen walking off with the New York City bomber's backpack on Saturday night. How you can help them .

WATTERS: That's right.

WILLIAMS: . track them down, next.


PERINO: We are learning a lot more today about the terror suspect charged with Saturday's bombings in New York and New Jersey. His possible motive, his path to radicalization and what the feds knew about him, two years go years ago. But first, the FBI is asking for your help to find these two men seen on surveillance video, handling the second bomb that did not detonate in Manhattan. Chief Intelligence Correspondent Catherine Herridge has more. Catherine?

CATHERINE HERRIDGE, FOX NEWS CHIEF INTELLIGENCE CORRESPONDENT: Well, thank you, Dana. The FBI releasing new images from surveillance video that was captured Saturday night and they are seeking information on the two men who were seen taking a pressure cooker bomb out of the suitcase and leaving it on the street. As you mentioned, that is the device that did not explode. This new poster goes to the reporting Rahami may not have acted alone. And while the men are described today as witnesses, not suspects, and the suitcase as evidence, it does leave open the possibility that others were involved and seemed to undermine statement made at Monday's news conference that they got everyone and no cell is operating in New York and New Jersey. Meantime, Rahami, as you know was carrying a personal journal when he was shot and captured on Monday. Today, Fox News exclusively obtaining eight images from that notebook showing he was knee deep in jihadist propaganda when he allegedly planted the bombs in New York and New Jersey.

The journal was badly damaged in the takedown, riddled with bullet holes and soaked in blood. But you can clearly see the references to Osama bin Laden, to the American cleric Anwar al-Awlaki, who is really the godfather of the digital jihad, as well as the Ft. Hood shooter, Nidal Hasan, who killed three and injured more than 30 others in the 2009 rampage at the Texas army base.

What's striking is that this 13-page indictment released last night that lays out the federal charges talks about the notebook as well as the references to al Qaeda and the cleric, but there really is this glaring omission. While Rahami wrote about a terrorist called Adnani, who is a senior spokesman and leader of the Islamic State, there's absolutely nothing in the indictment about him, effectively whitewashing Rahami's ISIS sympathies.

We have asked the U.S. attorney as well as the Justice Department to explain what seems a very significant discrepancy, Dana.

PERINO: All right. Thank you so much, Catherine. We really appreciate it.

HERRIDGE: You're welcome.

PERINO: We should just keep you the whole time.


PERINO: I want to take it around the table. Two things, Kimberly...


PERINO: ... I wanted to ask you. One is the picture of the two men, the suspects, it reminded me of -- remember in Brussels when the airport bombs were let off, and they had the pictures of one or two guys? They were leaving. And ultimately, they helped try to track him down.

The second thing is this question of the scrubbing of that information, the possible scrubbing of that. How important is that?

GUILFOYLE: I think it's significant, because now, actually, we have, you know, proof to the contrary. So it really is a glaring omission. When you see that they have that -- again, an intel, information-rich source right there to say look at the journal, look at his writing, take him for his word. He was very specific. He held it with him to the end, to the death, I mean, riddled with bullets and blood on it. Unbelievable imagery there. It was incredible for FOX News to get that eight-page exclusive. It tells the truth.

So then it begs the question: what is the administration, what is the Department of Justice doing? Why would they not include that information, which would only strengthen the facts in the indictment, you know, against him? And then as to the other two individuals, I mean, highly suspicious. You're going to believe their...

PERINO: Who walks up and takes somebody's backpack from them? "Oh, I think I'll pick up this backpack and move on."

GUILFOYLE: Someone complicit.

PERINO: Right?

GUTFELD: No. That happens in New York a lot. A lot of people -- a lot of people pick stuff up.

You know what's interesting to me? Again, you have a current terrorist preoccupied with an earlier terrorist. And this is the same thing that goes with mass shooters. It lends itself to the theory that compounding infamy through repetitive coverage escalates terror. Jihadism is a contagion that is spread by attention. So it's not more about adding to the story of terror. It's about -- about going -- matching our story with their story.

WILLIAMS: Can I -- can I interrupt to mock you?

GUTFELD: Yes, sure.

WILLIAMS: But didn't you -- didn't you go after John Kerry for saying this a few weeks ago?

GUTFELD: Yes, I did. But I also -- I also said that -- I'm trying to remember what I said. But I also mocked him, as well.

WILLIAMS: Yes, yes.

GUTFELD: No, but it's about -- it is about -- it's a war of narratives in a way. But the problem is that over the last four decade, the left has destroyed our narrative. America is no longer an exceptional country so you can provide the narrative against ISIS.

We're supposed to say, like, this is the greatest country ever. But we have academic -- we have the academia, we have the entertainment, we have the media telling us -- deconstructing our country as evil. So it's no longer a surprise that people sit during the national anthem.

PERINO: Jesse, I wanted to ask you something, but you can say anything you want, since you're going last here. But hindsight is 20/20 in these investigations. But how can we improve our foresight? Because you had the father two years ago tell the FBI, "My son stabbed my other son, and he's a terrorist," and then he went to Afghanistan, and he's not on a watch list.

WATTERS: Yes, not only that, if you look at the last eight years, there have been a lot of domestic terrorist attacks. And they all contain similar components.

You have suspicious travel.


WATTERS: This guy went to some crazy war zone in Pakistan.

You have contact with law enforcement. This guy stabbed his own brother. His dad dropped the dime on him. The FBI never even interviewed him.

You have radical online footprints. This guy had his own YouTube channel looking at crazy videos. He was buying shrapnel off of eBay.

WILLIAMS: I want to get to that point.

WATTERS: So why can't the national security officials in this country loosen these things -- crack down on these things so these things don't happen again? Wake up, guys.

WILLIAMS: Well, you know, I was struck by that. That he's on eBay buying the ingredients for a bomb. First of all, I didn't know you could do such a thing. But if you are, why isn't someone paying attention?

PERINO: I think we will find out that they were, something else happened. Hindsight is 20/20. But perhaps...

GUILFOYLE: And also, you have resources that you brought up and raised on this show yesterday to say maybe this is really a call to say we need more -- additional resources to combat this so that you can tie these threads together and connect it.

PERINO: If I were a candidate debating on Monday night, I'd bring that up. But who am I?

All right. Coming up, the Obama administration inadvertently makes the case for why America should not take in more refugees if we can't properly vet them. It happened right here on FOX News this morning. So stay tuned for that, next.


GUILFOYLE: Yesterday, President Obama announced the U.S. will take in 110,000 more refugees in the coming year, despite the threat that terrorists could slip in with them. The State Department even concedes it's a possibility.


JOHN KIRBY, U.S. STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESMAN: I would tell you that, you know, more than 10,000 Syrian refugees that we've admitted into the country by this month have all been extremely and very stridently vetted. In fact, Syrian refugees...


KIRBY: By the home interagency, DHS. Intelligence...

KILMEADE: We don't have the paperwork, Admiral. You know that.

KIRBY: They are going through a very serious interagency vetting process. The most that any refugee goes through. Is it perfect? Can it be perfect? Can it be foolproof? Well, probably not, no. But it is very, very serious.


GUILFOYLE: Spokesman John Kirby also acknowledged this morning on FOX News that ISIS has already infiltrated refugee camps overseas.


KIRBY: I wouldn't debate the fact that there's the potential for ISIS terrorists to try to insert themselves -- and we see that -- in some of the refugee camps in Jordan and in Turkey where they try to insert themselves into the population.


GUILFOYLE: All right. And just a little note here. Dana, we have invited John Kirby to join us on "The Five," and we will sit here until he comes. So get comfortable.

PERINO: OK, I'll be here. I'd love to see him. Because I love that -- obviously, that job is an incredible one. And he's refreshingly honest.


PERINO: This is true. This actually could happen.

What I find interesting is that on Monday, I was reading -- or I think it was Tuesday -- The Financial Times. I knew you would love that.


WATTERS: Wonk, wonk.

PERINO: The front-page headline story is about Angela Merkel saying to her country, "I messed up. I let in way too many refugees. We weren't ready for this. And if I had to go back and do it over again, I would have changed things." So if she's saying that in the face of having -- for bad politics for her but also just bad policy, then it would stand to reason that we might actually want to rethink things, as well. I'm not saying not to allow in refugees. But the process has to be more iron-tight.

The other thing is, John Kirby points out eight out of ten of the refugees are women and children. Well, that's good. OK, fine. The thing about having men come along with them -- their families, their husbands, their fathers -- is that you need help in providing for these people. So somebody has to work in order to make all of this assimilation actually work out.

So I have lots of other things, but I will...

WILLIAMS: But I would say to you...

PERINO: I will give you the talking stick.

WILLIAMS: I would say to you, Ms. Perino, that in fact, when you look at Angela Merkel and Germany, they let in millions. We have let in -- I don't even think we've let in 10,000.

PERINO: I know. But here's the other thing. Why don't you try to solve this problem at its source? That's...

WILLIAMS: That's a good argument. But I'm saying it's also an argument for human understanding of people who find themselves suffering devastation. So when Donald Trump Jr. talks about Skittles...

GUTFELD: Glad you brought that up.

WILLIAMS: I mean, these are human beings.

GUTFELD: OK, this is -- I love this. May I? May I?

WATTERS: Go ahead.

GUTFELD: This is the first time in history...

GUILFOYLE: Mother may I, please.

GUTFELD: ... where intellectuals don't understand metaphors. Everybody understands a metaphor: a few bad apples. Your mother used to say, "There's always a few bad apples."

PERINO: In the bunch.

GUTFELD: How dare you compare people to apples? That's the point of a metaphor.

By the way, the left has used the Skittles metaphor and the M&Ms metaphor when talking about the police. Oh, a few bad cops. Or gun owners, a few bad gun owners, or college students. A few of those college students, they're assaulters (ph).

So the idea of, like, the Skittles metaphor somehow being inhuman. No, it's simply an analogy.

The other point about this that drives me nuts, the left chastises the right for denying progress when it comes to science, for ignoring change, adhering to our arcane beliefs. Well, the world has changed. The world has changed. Jihadist has changed the battlefield. The globe is the battlefield.


GUTFELD: Jihadists changed the world. So why is the left being so regressive? Why is the left actually adapting to the change in this world and admitting that change has to happen and that we cannot think the same way anymore?

GUILFOYLE: OK, also...


GUILFOYLE: I ought to call on myself.

PERINO: Go for it.

GUILFOYLE: I just don't find it to be so humanitarian if you're not, in fact, adhering to a proper and fair vetting process. And we already know from intelligence reports that the vetting process in Syria is compromised. And you would expect it, because that is a war zone, and it's very difficult.

But let's get a little bit of elevation on this and say what else can we do to help rebuild communities there, to help restore jobs and communities over there so people don't have to be displaced, so they don't have to be uprooted from their country?

And you see some other countries now saying, "Guess what? We're going to throttle back on this a little bit, and we're going to try and provide aid over there, because maybe that's another way to look at the problem."

Because it does take time to be able to do the vetting. And the answer isn't, like, who looks like the better guy on the block, you know, Germany or the U.S. by sheer numbers? That's not a fair analysis.

GUTFELD: But here's the problem. We are -- we are constantly yelled at for, quote, nation building. If we ever try to help anybody, we've got -- oh, that's nation building. So when all the refugees come here, they were chided for trying to build our own nation.

WATTERS: Hillary also has her fingerprints all over the refugee crisis. It was boiled over on her watch and Obama's watch. She left Iraq. She pushed the Arab Spring.

WILLIAMS: Oh, boy.

WATTERS: Now they have nowhere to go. So she says, "Oh, come here," because she feels responsible. But why should we have to play Russian roulette to soothe her guilty conscience?

WILLIAMS: Wow. This is awful.

WATTERS: The State Department is running the program.


WATTERS: These are the same people that lost...

WILLIAMS: They say -- that's two years. You just heard...

WATTERS: ... track of $6 million...

WILLIAMS: Here we go.

WATTERS: ... that couldn't protect an embassy on 9/11.


WATTERS: Got suckered by the Iranians. I don't trust these people, you know. Let them live at your house, Juan.

WILLIAMS: Fine. Listen, I'm telling you, they live in our community. This is like saying, "Not in my neighborhood" to people who are disabled or mentally ill or drug addicts.

WATTERS: Yes, you know what? Send them to the Upper West Side. Send them to Georgetown. Send them to Martha's Vineyard.

WILLIAMS: I'm telling you, and especially on the Skittles thing, nobody says that, because there are a few bad cops, there shouldn't be cops.


WILLIAMS: It's that what we're talking about are human beings in crisis situations. Dana and Kimberly make a point about we can do more on the ground. But it's not to say that this great country should shut its doors.


GUILFOYLE: No one is saying to do that.

GUTFELD: Not at all.

WATTERS: We just don't trust the government to vet them.

GUILFOYLE: Let's do it the right way.

GUTFELD: Skittles are a metaphor. We aren't really calling them candy.

GUILFOYLE: And I want to stand up for green M&Ms, who always are disparaged.

But Dana, I think you made a great point about providing -- they have to be able to have communities here, and their husbands have to be able to work.

PERINO: And also, here's the other thing. When you are a refugee, what you want as a refugee, you want to go home.

GUTFELD: You want to be safe.

PERINO: What we're assuming here is that they're going to come here. But why do we assume that now? Because the average length of a refugee's stay overseas wherever they go is -- 30 years ago, it was nine years. Now it's 26 years. That's an entire generation, which is how you get Rahami here at 7 years old, and then 21 years later, he becomes radicalized.


PERINO: I mean, that -- it's so much more complicated than.

GUILFOYLE: And how are we going to pay for it all? You're not doing anybody a favor...

PERINO: Are we willing to pay for it?

GUILFOYLE: ... by bringing them over here and go like this, "Mm, good luck."

All right, fine. Let's buy another commercial to pay for all this talk. How does one prepare to debate one of the most unpredictable presidential candidates in history? Hillary Clinton's team spilled some of her strategy today. You're going to hear it again. It's a secret.


WATTERS: The first debate between Clinton and Trump is now five days away. We're getting some insight into how Hillary is prepping for the showdown. Her spokeswoman said today she's strategizing to face two different kinds of Trumps.

GUILFOYLE: My goodness.


JENNIFER PALMIERI, CLINTON'S COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: He can come on with a relatively -- relatively genteel persona that is calm. Or he could come in very aggressive and, you know, be aggressive in a way that you would not normally see a presidential, you know, Republican nominee behave. And so we're preparing for either -- for either one.

And what's interesting is we're not necessarily finding that what she does changes much. But you just want to game it out.


WATTERS: So it sounds like Hillary has got her work cut out for her. She's got to prepare to face two different people.

Kimberly, if Hillary starts coughing and she has a coughing fit...


WATTERS: ... what does Trump do?

PERINO: Pat her on the back.

GUILFOYLE: "Cough drop, my dear."

WATTERS: Just a nice little...

GUILFOYLE: Be a gentleman. Let's take a moment. Or "Would you like some water or a cough drop, a Luden's perhaps? A Ricola? Something."


GUILFOYLE: But be nice.

WATTERS: So just play it cool? Don't step on it?


PERINO: And then wink at the camera.

GUTFELD: And then say, "You've got a phlegm."

WATTERS: Good one, Gutfeld.

I think Juan is actually very concerned about this debate, because you have a big TV personality.


WATTERS: He is loose. He's going in pretty fresh. He's a rookie. He is very funny. He's witty. He's got sharp elbows.

GUILFOYLE: Man crush.

WATTERS: And you have Hillary, who's programmed like a robot. She's been over-prepping. Do you think that she's going to get up there and freeze up, and Trump is just going to have this kind of winning personality?

GUILFOYLE: He's not going to say yes to that.


WATTERS: ... to the American people?

WILLIAMS: Of course, you know, like for instance, Lester Holt, that famous Democrat -- "Oh, my gosh, he's a Republican. I didn't know." And then secondly, everybody...

WATTERS: Working the moderator.

WILLIAMS: Yes. He's a bully, and he's going to be bullying with the first woman to appear on this presidential stage. He's going to be one on one, not one on 16.

WATTERS: They're playing the gender card already.

WILLIAMS: No, I'm just saying you know what? For all of us, we're going to say if he doesn't stumble, if he doesn't say something stupid, outrageous, offensive, well, he wasn't bad.

WATTERS: Yes, so the expectation game going in now, Trump is considered, basically, one comment away from blowing his whole campaign up. If you go in there with these low expectations, what kind of level of performance does he need to hit in order to say, Trump didn't lose. "Oh, maybe Trump won"?

PERINO: I think we might be putting too much emphasis on this first debate. It's an important one. I think they both have low expectations, because nobody knows what they're going to end up with.

They could get 100 million viewers.


PERINO: That's a big deal. And also, if you want to learn more about what I think about it and Chris Stirewalt, we just recorded our podcast this afternoon.


PERINO: The whole thing is about the debate, and he talks about the contest versus polls, and we talk about pre-debate meals and what you would eat.

WATTERS: Greg...

GUTFELD: Wait, I thought the debate wasn't important.

PERINO: Well, we have a podcast.

GUTFELD: OK. You know what I think? The person who...

WATTERS: Quickly, Greg.

GUTFELD: The person who snaps first loses. And I think that Hillary, for practice, for the stand-in for Trump, they should have had Joe Pesci playing Tommy DeVito from "Goodfellas." That would have been the best stand-in.

PERINO: Driving him...


WATTERS: All right. "One More Thing" is up next.


GUTFELD: Time for "One More Thing" -- Kimberly.

GUILFOYLE: Well, today I'm remembering a beautiful soul and dear friend who recently passed away. My 81-year-old neighbor, Leslie Akin, born in 1935 in Brooklyn, New York. He was a beloved father of Chris and Doug, who are twins; Jill and David; and a grandfather of four. And a wonderful husband for 42 years to his beautiful wife, Wendy.

Leslie will be remembered for his amazing sense of humor and glass-is-half- full outlook on life.

His life was taken by CLL, Richter's transformation, and we can honor his legacy by fighting cancer. And I have more information on my Facebook page.

Leslie, my friend, you will be missed by many, and you will truly never be forgotten.

GUTFELD: Very nice. Dana.

PERINO: All right. You might not know that today is the International Day of Peace. This is called for by the U.N. secretary-general. It's September 21. American University had a great event. It's called hashtag #WagePeace. And this is happening in America, of course, where there's a lot of peace.


PERINO: Not so much around the world. But they had a really good event, and a lot of kids came out. And I wish them well.



GUTFELD: Out. All right.


GUTFELD: I hate these people!


GUTFELD: Speaking of peace, there's a petition to get In and Out Burger to have a veggie burger. Forget who would even go to a burger joint for a vegetarian meal. That's stupid.

PERINO: I would.

GUTFELD: But I hate people who file petitions because they want something. "Oh, I want something. Let's file a petition." You know what? If you want something, go find it. All right.


WILLIAMS: All right. Take a look at this reaction from Texas Rangers...

GUILFOYLE: Are you well?

WILLIAMS: ... third baseman Adrian Beltre. What caused that was an amazing behind-the-back catch by Rangers pitcher Nick Martinez. Martinez threw to first for the double play, as you see, leaving the batter, Andrelton Simmons, and Angels manager Mike Scioscia very annoyed, considering the Angels not only lost the game but they're still in last place...

PERINO: I want that as a GIF.

WILLIAMS: ... even with Mike Trout.


WATTERS: OK. So this weekend at 8 p.m., we have a live "Watters' World" on Saturday night.

PERINO: Oh, boy.

WATTERS: Anything is possible.

PERINO: Oh, boy.

WATTERS: Also, tomorrow night on "The O'Reilly Factor," we have a "Watters' World" where I go to a Hillary Clinton rally. Here's a picture I took there.

GUTFELD: Terrible.

WATTERS: It was a barn burner, as you can tell. People passing out, sleeping in the hallway of the event. And there will be more where that came from tomorrow night on "The Factor."

GUILFOYLE: We're also live, too, Saturday.


PERINO: Have fun.

GUTFELD: And then I've got a show at 10 p.m. We're all -- we all have shows on.

GUILFOYLE: And then Dana, you're live Sunday at 5. I'll tell you what.

PERINO: I'll tell you what. And I'll be on "FOX & Friends," an America's going to like something...

GUTFELD: I will be...

PERINO: It's going to be an awesome weekend.

GUTFELD: I will be drinking somewhere tonight, I think. Probably downtown.

GUILFOYLE: In your sippy cup? Your sippy cup?


PERINO: I love it when we run out of things to talk about.

GUTFELD: I won't tweet. They're telling me not to tweet.

That's it for us. "Special Report" is next. Why?


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