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Kelly File

Did others know about the NY-NJ bombing suspect's plot?

This is a rush transcript from "The Kelly File," September 20, 2016. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

MEGYN KELLY, HOST:  Breaking tonight, the search for more possible suspects in a multistate terror investigation.  New video of a bombing test run, and claims from the terror suspect's father that he warned the Feds about his son two years ago.  

Welcome to "The Kelly File," everyone.  I'm Megyn Kelly.  In just the last couple of hours we got our hands on the documents filed against Ahmad Khan Rahami.  And they contained a ton of eye opening new details.  Rahami is now facing multiple charges including the use of weapons of mass destruction.  It's believed he purchased his bomb making materials on eBay over the course of several months, collecting among other things, igniters and the tiny lead balls meant to seriously maim and kill.  Now this comes on the very same day that his father repeatedly spoke to news outlets about his son's questionable behavior.  He told reporters that he contacted the FBI about his own son two years ago.  Listen.  

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Do you think the FBI dropped the ball?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Did you talk to the FBI and tell them that your son was involved in terror?  You told that to the FBI?  You called them and told them?

MOHAMMAD RAHAMI, FATHER OF AHMAD RAHAMI:  Yes.   

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  And what did they say?

RAHAMI:  (INAUDIBLE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KELLY:  The Feds say the elder Rahami ultimately backed off of his claims and they could not find any red flags.  Still just two years later Ahmad Khan Rahami would make international headlines, accused of planting multiple bombs.  This new video appears to show him in the spot shadow dragging his bags in Manhattan shortly before a bomb went off injuring 31 people.  Also tonight, sources are telling Fox News that investigators are working on the premise that Rahami may have had help.  In moments, we'll be joined by former CIA Director General Michael Hayden.  

But we begin tonight with our chief intelligence correspondent Catherine Herridge reporting from Washington.  Catherine?

CATHERINE HERRIDGE, FOX NEWS CHIEF INTELLIGENCE CORRESPONDENT:  Megyn, the court documents released tonight show significant evidence of premeditation.  With the FBI saying, Rahami was buying bomb parts online including shrapnel and circuit boards as early as June and just two days before the attack, there is cell phone video showing what appears to be a trial run.  An FBI agent describes what he saw, quote, "A fuse is lit and the object ignites."  

The video depicts the lighting of the fuse, a loud noise and flames followed by billowing smoke and laugher.  A law enforcement source says, the domestic dispute in August, 2014 that got the FBI's attention was like a family brawl with Rahami stabbing his brother and punching his sister in the face as his father explained to reporters today.  

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAHAMI:  Two years ago, I called the FBI, my son, he's doing very bad, okay?  But they check it almost two months.  They say he's not a terrorist.  

(INAUDIBLE)

I said, okay.  Now they say he is a terrorist.  I say, okay.  

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HERRIDGE:  The FBI interviewed the father twice and in the second interview, the father withdraw his claims about his son's ties to bad actors.  FBI agents are bound by these rules known as the DIOG, the Domestic Investigations and Operations Guide.  And because Rahami was a
naturalized citizen, he enjoyed extra protections.   

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TIMOTHY GILL, FORMER FBI INTELLIGENCE OFFICER: -- Because the subject was a U.S. person.  Sometimes the rules are saying if you don't have these boxes checked, you cannot go forward, therefore you must close the case.  

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HERRIDGE:  And FOX News is told tonight authorities have made contact with his Pakistani wife but there's no information on whether she is cooperating
-- Megyn.   

KELLY:  Uh-hm.  Catherine, thanks.   

HERRIDGE:  You're welcome.   

KELLY:  When we compare this bomb spree to other recent incidents, we found some disturbing patterns.  American citizens visiting terror hot spots and then returning home to launch these attacks.  Now only do you have the New Jersey/New York bombing suspect but there's Orlando nightclub gunman Omar Mateen, accused police shooter Edward Archer and San Bernardino terrorist Syed Farook.  

Joining me now, General Michael Hayden, he served as director of the CIA during George W. Bush's administration.  He was also director of the National Security Agency during the Bush and Clinton administrations and now he's a principal at the Chertoff Group.  Great to see you, General.  
Thank you for being here.   

GENERAL MICHAEL HAYDEN, FORMER CIA DIRECTOR:  Thanks, Megyn.   

KELLY:  And so, there seems to be a pattern in terms of, you know, these
domesticated bombers, whatever we want to call them.  What are you seeing?   

HAYDEN:  Well, yes, Megyn, the things become more clear in the rearview mirror very often than they are.  They are in the wind screen.  I saw Catherine's wonderful report there.  And we're beginning to spin out a lot more information of things that we're now discovering about this.  But fundamentally, Megyn, the challenge that the bureau has when they investigate a man like this man is to identify not a criminal but to try to discover what I would call the not yet guilty.  And that's a really, really demanding task.  

And let me begin with a premise here, Megyn.  Bad things happen but it doesn't necessarily mean -- it's not a prima facie case that anyone did anything wrong prior to this.  This is just a really tough problem.  We need to go to school on it.  We need to take lessons learned.  But we don't need to make war on institutions and people who are actually keeping us pretty safe.  

KELLY:  Well, but, right, meaning the FBI who does a great job.  But you know, that doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement.  You know, and the average American sees the guy saying, I called him them up and told him he was a terrorist right before he told them he wasn't.  Who cares what he said after that.  It's like radar alert.  He goes off to Quetta, where you only go if, you know, apparently are interested in making bombs to have some, not only but it's a terrorism hot spot as people like you have been saying on our air.  People wonder why.  Why wasn't he more on their radar?

HAYDEN:  Well, you bring up a lot of really good questions.  And again Megyn, we need to go to school on them.  But the fact that he went to Quetta, I get it.  That's kind of a Taliban homeland.  It's also the home of one million Afghan refugees living in Pakistan.  So, it's not unusual for an Afghan to go back to Pakistan and visit Baluchistan.  

KELLY:  Okay.  I get that.  But this guy's dad was saying that he was a terrorist and he committed violence amongst his own family and the reports we got yesterday from the mother of this terrorist daughter is that he hated America, he hated  American culture, he started to get much more devout.  These are all signs we've heard in prior terror cases.  And if you're a trained FBI agent, as you know, trained CIA agent, you know what this means, that's somebody worth watching.   

HAYDEN:  It's somebody worth investigating.  But again, Megyn, again, this is much more clear in retrospect than it was in prospect.  You brought up some really good examples there and I'm hopeful, I'm confident that the bureau is going to school on each and every one of those instances.  But Megyn, you've got three really clear cases that are the numerator for the number of investigations that the bureau did on these types of individuals.  The denominator is numbered in the tens of thousands.  So, we're relying on bureau officers to make some really difficult decisions.  

By the way, Megyn, one of the things we might want to look at is the authority that the bureau has when they begin these assessments, preliminary investigations, full field of investigations, how invasive they can be is actually controlled by things that we can change.  

KELLY:  Uh-hm.

HAYDEN:  So we might want to ratchet that up a bit.  Frankly, Megyn, I don't mean to be too pessimistic here.  This is very hard and we may be bumping up against some of the limits of what is possible.   

KELLY:  Yes.  Now, we have a constitution in this country.  But our friends in Israel have accepted much more erosion of their civil rights in the name of security.  And we have this debate whenever there is a terror attack here which sadly is becoming more frequent.  General, great to see you.   

HAYDEN:  Thank you, Megyn.  

KELLY:  So, last night we told you about a handwritten note discovered near one of Rahami's undetonated bombs.  Now a blood stained terrorist praising notebook was uncovered during his capture and it's providing further clues tonight into the story he was attempting to write.  

For more on that, we go to senior correspondent Rick Leventhal at the site of the Chelsea explosion.  Rick?

RICK LEVENTHAL, FOX NEWS SENIOR CORRESPONDENT:  Megyn, I have told that the notebook was a diary of sorts.  Rahami had it with him when he was shot by police in that gun battle in Linden, New Jersey yesterday morning and it was splattered with his own blood.  It was an extremist rambling of sorts with praise for terror leaders Anwar al-Awlaki and Osama bin Laden, he mentioned the Fort Hood shooter.  And ended with the words Inshallah, God willing that the sounds of the bombs will be heard in the streets, gun shots to your police, death to your oppression.  

The four count indictment filed in New York Federal Courts tonight alleges Rahami bought some of the bomb-making materials on eBay as you've mentioned and the details how he drove his father's SUV into the city before and after the attack Saturday night.  He also is now facing six federal accounts in New Jersey.  I am told Rahami did not cooperate with the investigators who tried to question him after he was captured but that could have been in part because he had just been shot.  

And now I am told that close to a 100 investigators in New Jersey alone are working to document Rahami's travel overseas and his movements at home, who he talked to, where he shopped, where he might have built those bombs and whether or not he had any help along the way -- Megyn.  

KELLY:  Rick, thank you.  Turning us now, Pete Hoekstra, former chairman of the House Intelligence Committee and senior fellow at the investigative project on terrorism.  Great to see you, sir.  

PETE HOEKSTRA, FORMER CHAIRMAN, HOUSE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE:  Thank you.

KELLY:  So, your thoughts on whether this guy is likely linked to others who may have helped him in this regard.  

HOEKSTRA:  Well, it's unclear as to whether he was linked to others here in the United States.  I think one of the real things we got to be taking a look at, who he was linked to in Pakistan and in Afghanistan.  And to do that we need strong relationships with the intelligence communities in those two countries.  Because they're the ones that are going to have the eyes and the ears into the Taliban and into al Qaeda and into ISIS.  And they're the ones that, you know, can give us a tip that says, hey, we're hearing from our sources, there's an American, and you know who is learning
bomb making skills.   

KELLY:  Hello.   

HOEKSTRA:  He's been there for two weeks and he's heading back to the United States in March.  And that's the kind of information --  

KELLY:  And then he comes back and it's not like he wasn't, you know, he was questioned by customs and border patrol when he came back over.  He had been over there for a year at one point.  And yet there's no screening.  I mean, even if there was -- we've seen some of the screening.  Are you a terrorist?  That's helpful.  So, you can understand Americans'  frustration where they're like the guy was in Quetta repeatedly, he was becoming more and more devout, he was becoming angry, he was openly talking about hating American culture, his dad said he was a terrorist.  Okay.  I get that he recanted but that doesn't happen to the average person.  And they're saying we love our FBI but we have to hold them to some higher standards.   

HOEKSTRA:  Well, what we also do know Megyn is that in the last number of years, the FBI and other law enforcement agencies, they've kind of become politically correct.  Organizations that used to go in and train the FBI and other local law enforcement about the things to look for when you are trying to determine whether someone may have radical jihadist tendencies, that training in many cases has been eliminated because it was politically incorrect and uncomfortable and we don't want to be perceived as targeting Muslims or you know folks from the middle east or from Pakistan or Afghanistan.  This training has been purged from the FBI.   

KELLY:  Uh-huh.  And so you've got a combination of you know, you and General Hayden who of course, he was running the NSA program, where they're allowed to listen in only on a phone call that was between an American and a suspected terrorist.  It's not just any Americans.   

HOEKSTRA:  Correct.   

KELLY:  And nine times out of ten they weren't listening to anybody.  They were basically just collecting so-called metadata.  Any way that program he's suggesting something like it, you know, some sort of, something that would let us get more up into their business would be helpful and you're saying that we're disarmed in the fight to a large extent.  So, you know, where does that leave us?  Because I understand we've got Donald Trump, we've got Hillary Clinton.  But do you actually see a difference in the country's safety depending on what happens here on November 8th?

HOEKSTRA:  Oh, absolutely.  I mean, you know, domestically we're disarmed.  We should rearm.  Internationally.  You know, take a look at what our intelligence capability in places like Libya and in Egypt, six years ago these two countries were a rich source of intelligence.  You know, throughout Northern Africa and into the Middle East.  Egypt and Libya had fantastic intelligence organization.  When America partnered with radical jihadists, the Muslim Brotherhood to overthrow Mubarak and overthrow Gadhafi, we lost those two entire intelligence networks.  

We are now basically blind in Northern Africa.  We are -- less into the Middle East.  And other people who in the past have partnered with us on intelligence capabilities are much more hesitant to partner with us.  So, we have disarmed domestically and we have gone blind internationally in
some key, key locations.   

KELLY:  Hmm.  Former Congressman Pete Hoekstra.  Good to see you.  Thank you, sir.

HOEKSTRA:  Thank you.

KELLY:  We are also getting breaking news tonight on Ahmad Rahami's wife, how she left the country just weeks before the bomb attack and how U.S.
investigators have now caught up with her overseas.  

Former extremist turned anti-terror crusader Maajid Nawaz is next.  He is here in studio on her story.  

Plus, some of the biggest names in political forecasting are suddenly changing their election maps in favor of Donald Trump.  Larry Sabato is one of them.  He is here to explain why and what's going on.

And then, it took about six hours to go from shocking to very ugly in the much publicized split between Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie.  We'll show you how each side is reacting what they're now saying as the other woman now joins what's become a national news story.  And what does that say?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  People are shocked, and social media is abuzz.  
People on the internet are going crazy.  Because this was the Hollywood couple you thought would potentially be the one Hollywood couple that would make it through.  

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KELLY:  Breaking new details tonight on the tangled family web of terror suspect Ahmad Rahami and how much they may or may not have known about his alleged plot.  Rahami's wife who are announcing for the first time apparently left the country just a couple of months before the bombings.  
His mother left just in the last couple of weeks.  And the fact that both of them were out of the country at the time of the attacks has some folks thinking that may have been more than just a coincidence.  

Trace Gallagher live in our West Coast Newsroom with more.  Trace?

TRACE GALLAGHER, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT:  And Megyn, the time line here is key because initially authorities say that Ahmad Rahami's wife left the United States just a few days before the bombings.  But now ABC News is reporting that Asia Rahami left the US in June.  And was on her way back to America when she was stopped by FBI agents in the United Arab Emirates where she is now being questioned.  Their marriage is an important piece of the puzzle because the two met in Pakistan during one of Rahami's several trips to the region, including trips along the Afghan-Pakistan border known as a home of extremism and a Taliban stronghold.  

Not only was Ahmad Rahami's wife out of the country during the bombings, so was his mother.  The Fed saying that Giba (ph) Rahami left the U.S. for Turkey on August 24th.  It's unclear exactly why.  Rahami's other family members are also being looked at, including a brother who once posted a jihadi message on Facebook.  But recent history tells us the wives may play the biggest roles in these types of terror investigations.  Remember during the San Bernardino attack, Tashfeen Malik who died in a police shootout was clearly committed to her husband's cause.  

A year before the Boston marathon bombings, Katherine Russell, the wife of killer Tamerlan Tsarnaev did an internet search asking what the rewards are if your husband becomes a martyr.  Russell has never been charged.  And in the Orlando massacre, Nor Salman, the wife of mass killer Omar Mateen once drove her husband to the Pulse Nightclub so he could scope it out.  And on the night of the shootings she feared he was planning to attack the gay nightclub and pleaded with him not to do anything violent.  Again, Salman has not been charged -- Megyn.  

KELLY:  Uh-hm.  Trace, thanks.  

Joining me now with more, Maajid Nawaz, he is a former Islamic extremist now working as an anti-terror crusader with The Quilliam Foundation.  
Maajid, great to see you.

MAAJID NAWAZ, FORMER ISLAMIC EXTREMIST:  Pleasure.

KELLY:  So, the connection to the wife and her history and her departure from the U.S., just what do you think?

NAWAZ:  Well, as we just heard, it's not something unusual.  And actually what we need to be aware of is that with the process of radicalization, I think it's almost impossible for close family members, especially spouses to not notice anything, and in most cases they are aware and in some cases sympathize with their ratified spouse.  

KELLY:  Uh-hm.

NAWAZ:  And all of the indications here point to awareness at least.   

KELLY:  What do you make of the discussion we had in the last block about this guy traveling to Pakistan to, you know, Pakistan, to Quetta, coming back, didn't get on anybody's radar, called a terrorist by his father, no problem apparently  for the FBI.  

NAWAZ:  Megyn, you see, the city of Quetta isn't just a city you go visit in Pakistan.  I am a Pakistani origin.  It would be incredibly strange for me to visit Quetta.  Now, I have visited Quetta but I have visited Quetta to speak with hundreds of youth in the universities to warn them against joining extremists groups.  The reasons we wouldn't visit Quetta ordinarily is first of all, Afghans aren't originally from Quetta.  It would be strange for him to have family based in Quetta.  

KELLY:  Uh-hm.

NAWAZ:  If you went to Peshawar, I could probably understand it a bit more.  
But secondly it's a conflict zone.  It's like the average American getting up and going to see Belfast at the height of the troubles in Northern Ireland.  It's a war zone.  There's currently a civil war going on in Quetta.  That in itself should have raised alarm bells for American
authorities.   

KELLY:  You know, we've been talking in the show the last couple of days about whether we are turning into Israel and we can expect more of these attacks and this is the new reality.  What do you think?

NAWAZ:  Well, I'm clearly from Europe, from London.  We've had a summer of madness and terrorism there.  I think that the extremists have been planning to delay their attacks in America until it's closer to the U.S.
elections.  ISIS on their chat forums, and I'm not saying this chat was with ISIS, it's been on their chat forums.  They've been suggesting that they would seek the influence the U.S. elections.  I think they would favor a Donald Trump win because it makes it easier for them to radicalize others
against America.   

KELLY:  Why?  Just because he talks tough on terror?

NAWAZ:  I'm always weary of saying ISIS -- so let's not do it.  I mean, at the end of the day ISIS doesn't want us to breathe but we still have to breathe.  Right?  It is important for us to be aware that extremists are interested in being able to point to a head of state that they can clearly identified being antagonistic to them --  

KELLY:  Uh-hm.

NAWAZ: -- which then helps their narrative, in that they want to posit the west at being at war against Islam and Muslims.   

KELLY:  Uh-hm.  But you know, here in this country we've been having this debate about whether President Obama, who is, you know, of the same mind- set.  I think, you know, he doesn't want to do anything to sort of play into that narrative that we're at war with the Muslims of the world.  About whether he needs to call the enemy what it is, you know, the war against radical Islam.  Not Islam but radical Islam.  Where do you stand on it?

NAWAZ:  Well, we have to absolutely call it by what it is.  And there are major reasons for that.  First of all, if we don't actually identify Islamism and Islam is extremism by its name, it makes it difficult, makes it harder to isolate it from mainstream Islam and the average ordinary everyday Muslim.  

KELLY:  Uh-hm.

NAWAZ:  So, of course when people are going to begin conflating the two.  So, one of the benefits of giving something a name is to differentiate it.  Ironically the very thing President Obama fear will come about if we are unable to name Islamic extremism.   

KELLY:  Uh-hm.  And now, if you're advising the FBI in this case, given the pattern we're seeing, the profile of these domestic terrorists.  I mean, they're terrorists but, you know, they're American citizens, naturalized citizens in so many cases, what do they tell them -- what do they need to be doing differently?

NAWAZ:  Well, I think behavioral and psychological profiling is what we need to be looking at here.  Because of course, as we just saw even with your short film before, Katherine Russell want Americans who seemed to have been aware of her husband's sort of desire to die as a martyr.  

KELLY:  Uh-hm.

NAWAZ:  But (INAUDIBLE) terrorists.  But behavioral and psychological profiling is really important.  If we were doing that correctly, then I re- emphasize that it's odd to say the Tsarnaev brothers to get up and go and visit certain regions in Central Asia the way they did.  And it's odd for
Rahami to go and visit Quetta.  That's not normal behavior.   

KELLY:  That should put you on the FBI's radar.   

NAWAZ:  Yes.  Pakistani -- especially naturalized American citizen who isn't of the ethnicity that belongs to the Quetta region, you know, we know that Rahami was Afghan.  No one who is naturalized in this country just gets up and lives in Quetta for a year.  As I said, it's a conflict zone.   

KELLY:  Uh-hm.

NAWAZ:  It's incredibly unusual even for Pakistanis to go and visit Quetta.  

KELLY:  I have yet to hear anybody come out and say the FBI needs more resources.  We need more money.  We need more agents so we can track this down.  We just keep getting told it's hard, it's really hard but we're doing a great job which is becoming less and less believable.  Maajid, thank you so much.   

NAWAZ:  My pleasure.  Thanks very much.

KELLY:  Always a pleasure seeing you.

Well, with both presidential candidates now talking to voters about the terror threat in America, President Obama today made a big announcement regarding his role in the Clinton campaign coming up.  

Marc Thiessen and Roland Martin are next on that.   

Plus, Larry Sabato is here tonight on why he changed his election prediction map which he hasn't changed in months with significant gains for Donald Trump.  Don't go away.  

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KELLY:  It is now 49 days to the election.  Forty nine.  Was I only saying that yesterday?  I can't keep up.  Less than a week to what could become one of the most watched presidential debates in history.  It will be, right?  Don't you think it's going to be number one?  I think it's going to be number one.  In about 72 hours since terror attacks rocked New York City and New Jersey.  

Against that backdrop, President Obama today went to the United Nations just blocks away from where 31 people were wounded calling for the world to take in more refugees.  Then suggesting that critics have his plan, critics
like Donald Trump are actually helping the terrorists.   

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA:  If we were to turn refugees away simply because of their background or religion or, for example, because they are Muslim then we would be reinforcing terror propaganda. That nations like my own or somehow oppose to Islam.

This crisis is a test of our common humanity, whether we give in to suspicion and fear and build walls or whether we see ourselves in another.
To slam the door in the face of these families would betray our deepest values.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KELLY:  Not only did the president use the United Nations for what sounded an awful lot like a campaign speech, news also dropped today of an unprecedented campaign blitz by Mr. Obama on behalf of Hillary Clinton. With the president reportedly prepared to devote at least one or two days a week to getting her elected, until November 8th.

Joining us now Marc Thiessen, a Fox News contributor and a scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, and Roland Martin, who's host the managing editor of News One Now on TV One. Great to see you both.

ROLAND MARTIN, NEWS ONE NOW MANAGING EDITOR:  Glad to be here.

MARC THIESSEN, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR:  Good to see you, Megyn.

KELLY:  So, let's just talk about the refugee situation. Because this is becoming bigger and bigger and the immigration policies of the two candidates. The president today coming out saying we need more, we need more refugees to come into the country and Hillary Clinton saying, OK, they'll be subjected to tough vetting. This is how she put it, Marc. Stand by.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY CLINTON, D-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  So, I am absolutely in favor of and have long been an advocate for tough vetting for making sure that we don't let people into this country. And not just people who come here to settle, but we need a better visa system.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KELLY:  Your thoughts on that.

THIESSEN:  She was in charge of the visa system. He was Secretary of State for the first three years of the Obama administration. Why didn't she give a better visa system when she has the chance and she was in charge of the department that was in charge of issuing visas?

I mean, this is the problem. Hillary Clinton both wants to run away from Barack Obama and wants to tie herself at the hip with him. They're going to be campaigning together twice a week for the rest of the -- up until Election Day. So, she wants his support but she also is going to be tied to his record.

Well, what is his record? His record is -- we just found out that the Department of Homeland Security Inspector General found out that over 1800 people who were supposed to be deported because they posed a national security risk were given U.S. citizenship instead.

KELLY:  That's insane.

THIESSEN:  They confused -- they confused the deportation order with a passport application. They couldn't hold the difference. This is our vetting system right now. Hillary Clinton looks at that and says, let's increase the number of Syrian refugees by 500 percent. She's not doubling down on Obama's policies. She's quintupling down on Obama's policies. This is -- this is not going to do her well in the election coming.

(CROSSTALK)

KELLY:  Well, in that number hasn't gotten a lot of coverage. But it's true; at least 1800 and 11 immigrants who were supposed to be deported because they posed these national security threats instead were given citizenship.

MARTIN:  Well, when you also have a country where you have people -- like when you had individual members of Congress who were on the no-fly list, it's no shock that we have bureaucratic screw ups. Those are things that actually...

KELLY:  That's a big one.

MARTIN:  No, no. It is a big one. It is a big one. And my point is that's why you are also to fix those things.

KELLY:  But you see the political matter, why it puts her in a difficult position to say...

MARTIN:  Sure.

KELLY:  ... let's quintuple the number of refugees coming in.

MARTIN:  Well, again, first of all, as Americans, it's a little difficult for us to ask others around the world to do something that we're unwilling to do. Now when we also made the point about her being over the visa program, remember, she also was working for a president.

Marc, you worked for a president. You couldn't do something on your own without that being the approval of the president of the United States.
Obama...

(CROSSTALK)

THIESSEN:  Well, I'm not a Secretary of State.

MARTIN:  No, no, no. I understand -- I understand that you weren't. But the reality is she still had a boss, like you had a boss that is the president of the United States.

The things here at this year, I don't believe that somehow the refugee policy is going to be somehow that major in striking her down. There are people -- look, there are people who don't like the president, who don't like her already.

And so, I don't think all of the sudden they're going to say I hate her even more so, but I do believe you do have Americans out there who understand from a humanitarian perspective where we are as a country.

KELLY:  What do you make of it, Marc? Because it's extraordinary to see a sitting president devote, you know, two days of the workweek to campaigning for someone running for office. You know, I don't know -- is he going to get a dock in pay? He's not really doing the people's business two out of the five working days.

THIESSEN:  Well part of the job -- part of his job I guess is preserving his legacy. And he realizes that if Donald Trump is elected, it's going to be a big blow to his legacy. His legacy depends on Hillary Clinton getting elected. And she understands that for that she's running on his legacy.

Look, when after an eight-year term in office, the choice in election is change or more of the same. She's the candidate of more of the same. She is the candidate of what's happening in Syria right now. It was on her watch, on Obama's watch.

They did nothing while 500,000 people were massacred in that country and they had no safe zone to flee the violence. And so, the refugee crisis was created on their watch.

(CROSSTALK)

KELLY:  But on the other hand...

MARTIN:  But, Marc, your...

THIESSEN:  And now they're coming out and saying you're immoral for not making more refugees. He created the refugee crisis.

(CROSSTALK)

KELLY:  On the other hand, Roland, if her legacy is his, he's got a 52 percent approval rating right now. It's been above that in recent days. And actually the latest polls we had this discussion last night, the latest poll on terror show her ahead of Donald Trump in all but I think one poll.
She is outpolling him on who they trust more to handle terror.

MARTIN:  I can guarantee you this. If Marc's former boss actually had a high approval rating, republicans would not have been running from him in 2008. This is the reality of when you are a strong incumbent.

If Al Gore was not being an idiot and not having former President Bill Clinton campaign for him, he likely would have won the presidency. All he had to do was win his home state of Tennessee or win Arkansas and he wins the presidency.

And so, if you're a political party, you want a popular president. You want a president on the campaign...

(CROSSTALK)

THIESSEN:  He's not that popular.

MARTIN:  Excuse me, Marc. I guarantee you when you have an approval rating above 50 percent and with the highest in years, trust me, you want that. And again, if Bush -- if Bush, Marc...

KELLY:  OK.

MARTIN:  If Bush had comparable numbers in 2008, trust me, republicans would have loved to have...

(CROSSTALK)

THIESSEN:  How do I know?

MARTIN:  ... the president on the campaign trail.

KELLY:  All right. I got to leave it that.

MARTN:  So, you got to suck it up there, Marc. He's popular.

KELLY:  There you go. Great to see you both.

THIESSEN:  Thanks.

KELLY:  Well, at least three well-respected election model this week changed in favor of Trump. Larry Sabato runs one of them, the most respected I'd say and he is next on what is happening here.

Plus, Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt today called it quits. This is the one story everyone was discussing today. And within hours there were some ugly accusations from both sides. We'll show you the latest that just broke as we came to air.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KELLY:  Just six days until what could be an historic presidential debate. It will be. I know a big. And this Sunday night we will have a special edition of The Kelly File live with a complete preview of what to expect when Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump face off for the first time at Hofstra. I'm looking forward to this.

Then after the debate on Monday night, tune in to the live Kelly File at 11 o'clock right after the debate for the complete wrap up and analysis you won't see anywhere else with all your favorite guests.

And here's why we think it's going to be such a big deal. In just the last week, Larry Sabato of the University of Virginia made some major changes to his otherwise unchangeable prediction map which he hasn't touch in months moving 12 states, 12 states over further to the right, including two outright flips, Ohio and Iowa went from leaning democrat to leaning Republican.

Joining me now, Larry Sabato who's got to be exhausted at this point. He is the director of the UV Center for Politics. So, that's huge, 12 states. You haven't moved anything in that map and now it's a whole new ball game.

LARRY SABATO, VIRGINIA UNIVERSITY CENTER FOR POLITICS DIRECTOR:  And here's why, Megyn. We were led by the data to do this. Hillary Clinton had maintained leads that were either small or large in all of those states really since the summertime. And then we all know it was expanded after the convention.

But she's had a couple of rotten weeks. And either she's fallen back depending on the state or Donald Trump has gone up or some people think that democrats just don't want to respond to the polls.

But very clearly the polls had changed. And they changed enough in Ohio to lean it to Trump, lean it. And Iowa just about everybody agrees that is Trump's strongest swing state. So, we lean that to Trump as well.

But I think the real story here is Florida, North Carolina and Nevada. In all of those states you either had very contradictory polls or polls that were dead tied. And so tossup is the right rating for them.

KELLY:  And that there was a poll just today from Monmouth putting her up five points over Trump in Florida. But that's -- you know, they've been all over the place.

Now one thing we read this week was that the polls taken this week show she's doing better than she was doing last week. And so, you tell me, you know, whether that means she's rebounding, she's steadying the ship or what it means.

SABATO:  I think probably it's returning to the prior norm, except for one big thing, Megyn, that you mentioned in this segment. A hundred million people are going to watch this debate on Monday night. More than have watched any debate in American history.

So, that's a reset button potentially depending on what happens and there isn't a soul in the country who knows what's going to happen.

KELLY:  Well, and that's a thing. It's this like, maybe it will be exciting -- it will be exciting just to watch. But query what the candidates will do under that kind of pressure. They're only human beings, you know, they may not want to throw any real hard punches because they don't want to upset what is a tight race. Any predictions before I let you go?

SABATO:  I think basically the supporters of both will be strengthened and people mainly tune to debates to cheer for their side. But never ever underestimate the power of any candidate to commit a terrible gaffe that causes the numbers to shift.

KELLY:  Well, that's kind of why we watch. It's like, you know, watching the ice skating at the Olympics. What? That isn't nice.

Great to see you, Larry. Well.

SABATO:  Thanks, Megyn.

KELLY:  Joining us with more, Trump campaign national spokesperson, Katrina Pierson and DNC committee member and Clinton supporter, Robert Zimmerman. Good to see you.

ROBERT ZIMMERMAN, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST:  Good evening.

KELLY:  So, let me just start with you on this Robert. Do you admit she had a terrible two weeks?

ZIMMERMAN:  She didn't have a terrible two weeks.

(CROSSTALK)

KELLY:  She didn't? Twelve states.

ZIMMERMAN:  Look, the reality is -- look...

KELLY:  Twelve that Larry Sabato states just got moved further to the right.

ZIMMERMAN:  Excuse me, let me point out to you that Larry Sabato in his report with his new map pointed out that Hillary Clinton certainly has the advantage of winning the election over Donald Trump, more paths to get to.

(CROSSTALK)

KELLY:  But two weeks last Monday.

ZIMMERMAN:  More paths to get to 270.

KELLY:  He was on this program saying is she looking great, Trump is in big trouble. And because the polling from her collapse and basket full of `deplorables' hadn't caught up.

ZIMMERMAN:  Well, first of all, there wasn't a collapse. Let's also understand, Megyn, I mean, I don't want to disappoint you, but you should be, in fact, maybe this will put your mind at ease, but Hillary Clinton in today's national poll, NBC national poll is up by 5 percentage points. But let's assume...

(CROSSTALK)

KELLY:  Now let me stop you right there. As you well know it isn't about my personal feelings.

ZIMMERMAN:  I know that.

KELLY:  It's about the facts.

ZIMMERMAN:  And the facts are, Megyn, that even if you take the worst projection, you assume that Hillary Clinton has 16 of the standard blue states for 191 electoral votes, that's low than anyone is projecting. The battleground states in question according to 538.com and others give her a
70 percent chance of winning those states.

KELLY:  OK, 538 with all due respect to Nate Silver has been schizophrenic with this election. They nailed it with Obama the last time around. They've been with all due respect all over the place.

(CROSSTALK)

ZIMMERMAN:  Every poll...

KELLY:  Can you believe one day, the next day completely the reverse. Let me get Katrina in here.

ZIMMERMAN:  OK.

KELLY:  Katrina, there's, I mean, your candidate has had boat loads full of trouble, all right, since he launched his campaign. But you tell me whether this has been the best 8, 10-day period of the entire run for him.

KATRINA PIERSON, DONALD TRUMP NATIONAL SPOKESPERSON:  Well, Megyn, I think this has been a fantastic time period for Mr. Trump. I mean, we keep wanting to remind people that Hillary Clinton has spent tens of millions of dollars in many of these states, and some that Larry didn't mention like Colorado, Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania, look at Virginia and Maine for crying out loud. Mr. Trump is doing extremely well. Which is exactly why...

(CROSSTALK)

KELLY:  Well, Virginia was typically red.

PIERSON:  ... many of these models have shifted.

KELLY:  But let me ask you this. So, understanding they had this great time. What does that mean for his debate strategy? Because even though he's had a great 10 days, he's had like a year and a half of controversy preceding it.

PIERSON:  Well, look, he's going to prepare the way Mr. Trump does. He's absolutely committed to going out there and campaigning in all of these states for all voters, something we haven't seen from a republican candidate in a very long time. And he's ready to go up against Hillary Clinton, as we know Hillary Clinton does have a record of failure as Secretary of State, particularly when it comes to the hot topics that many people are concerned about.

ZIMMERMAN:  Katrina, I think you did your analysis...

(CROSSTALK)

PIERSON:  Like terrorism, like economy, and like trade.

ZIMMERMAN:  Excuse me, Katrina.

KELLY:  OK. Hold on. Let Robert get in here.

PIERSON:  Someone that's going to get up here and actually talk to the American public about what she wants to do.

(CROSSTALK)

ZIMMERMAN:  Katrina, don't talk over me.

KELLY:  Stand by, Katrina, one second. Let him make his -- hold on.

ZIMMERMAN:  Hold on, Katrina.

KELLY:  ... hold on. Let him make his point and then I'll give you the floor back.

ZIMMERMAN:  Katrina, take a breath. Here's the bottom line. Katrina, I think you learned your political analysis at Trump University because what we've seen in this election...

(CROSSTALK)

PIERSON:  Take a breath? You're the exotic one, George.

ZIMMERMAN:  Wait, it's first of all, it's Robert. You've got a fixation on George Zimmerman which says something else. The other point is what makes this election so unique is you see an unprecedented number of leading republican experts in homeland security, in fighting terrorism, in our military including now President George Herbert Walker Bush now standing up and supporting Hillary Clinton because they regard Donald Trump as reckless, dangerous and an incompetent...

(CROSSTALK)

KELLY:  All right. Let her respond. What do you make in particular because the news broke overnight that the former President George H.W. Bush is planning to vote for Hillary Clinton, Katrina?

PIERSON:  Well, look, I think everyone is entitled to support whomever they want. There are many Americans applaud the Bush's and respect their service.

(CROSSTALK)

ZIMMERMAN:  Not Donald Trump who attacked them in the line.

KELLY:  Let her finish, Robert.

PIERSON:  I mean, if it's true that some of the Bushs are going to be supporting --- if it is true that some of the Bushs are going to be supporting Hillary Clinton, then I think it really offers vindication for a lot of the Tea Party goers who felt like republicans were starting to govern like democrats.

(CROSSTALK)

ZIMMERMAN:  How about the generals who support -- how about the generals who are stepping up?

(CROSSTALK)

PIERSON:  But at the same time, this is the establishment...

ZIMMERMAN:  And supporting Hillary Clinton other George Bush?

KELLY:  OK.

PIERSON:  The establishment is going to stick with the establishment.

ZIMMERMAN:  Like our military?

KELLY:  Robert!

PIERSON:  You have republicans in a record number turn out for Donald Trump and you have former leaders of the party just essentially slaps him in the face. At the same time, Megyn, everyone is going to have to choose who best suits their values. And if Hillary Clinton represents George Bush's values then that's his prerogative.

(CROSSTALK)

KELLY:  OK. I got to go.

ZIMMERMAN:  Well, clearly Vladimir Putin reprimands George Bush's about...

(CROSSTALK)

KELLY:  She wasn't thinking of George H.W. Bush, Robert. She wasn't thinking of George Zimmerman.

It's great to see you both. I got to leave it there.

ZIMMERMAN:  OK.

KELLY:  I have to talk about Brad and Angelina, which I don't think Katrina and Robert want to discuss.

It's over. But the biggest Hollywood divorce by recent memory is just beginning. News just broke before on this before we came to air. Are you interested in this and what does it say about us that we are?

Plus, new fallout from a police shooting in Tulsa now creating a new controversy. We'll bring you the story next.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Which way are they facing?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Westbound.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  They're facing westbound. Just been tasers.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Shots fired.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KELLY:  Breaking tonight, the Department of Justice launching an investigation into the fatal shooting of an unarmed African-American man by a white Tulsa, Oklahoma police officer.

Just released video shows police responding to reports of an abandoned vehicle. You can see 40-year-old Terence Crutcher walking towards his car with his hands in the air.

Police say he was not listening to instructions and reached into his car. That's when Officer Betty Shelby fired her weapon killing him. The officer's attorney says she thought he had a gun.

Also tonight, the marriage of Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt is on the rocks as Hollywood's biggest humanitarian superstar files for divorce.

Trace Gallagher has the story. Trace?

TRACE GALLAGHER, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT:  Hi, Megyn. So far Brad Pitt is getting very little benefit of the doubt. Our corporate cousin of the New York Post says that Angelina Jolie filed for divorce after learning that Brad Pitt was involved with Marion Cotillard of the Pitt's co-star in the upcoming movie "Allied."

The Post says, "Jolie hired a private investigator who confirm the two were fooling around onset, and that offset the atmosphere was full of drugs and Russian hookers that Pitt got caught up in."

But TMZ which broke the divorce story says it wasn't about cheating it was about Brad and their six kids saying Angelina reached their breaking point last week over Brad's consumption of weed and alcohol combined with what she said are Brad's anger issues.

And instead of joint physical custody, meaning the kids live with mom but spend a few weekends of month with dad, Jolie is asking that Pitt get only joint legal custody with visitation rights.

Pitt is reportedly planning to fight that. Court paper shows that Jolie is asking to keep miscellaneous jewelry and earrings and property after the separation. We should note that a few minutes after she announced the divorce, Megyn, there was an earthquake here in Las Angeles at 3.2. It is unclear right now if the two are connected in any way.

KELLY:  Unbelievable. All anybody was talking about today. I mean, unbelievable. Trace, we'll be right back. Thank you.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KELLY:  Little preview of tomorrow's New York Post cover for you. Yes. That is Jennifer Anniston reportedly laughing at the end of the marriage. She's not actually. I mean I don't know. What are you thinking? Facebook.com/thekellyfile. See you tomorrow night.

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