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The Five

De Blasio, Cuomo initially downplay terror's role in bombing

This is a rush transcript from "The Five," September 19, 2016. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

KIMBERLY GUILFOYLE, CO-HOST: Hello, everyone, welcome to "The Five." I'm Kimberly Guilfoyle. You were just listening to Donald Trump reacting to this weekend's terror attack. We'll have his reaction in a moment. But first, the massive manhunt for the terror suspect wanting for bombings in both New York City and New Jersey is over. 28-year-old Ahmad Khan Rahami was captured earlier today after dramatic shootout with police in Linden, New Jersey. The Afghani-born naturalized citizen is believed to have set-off an explosive device on Saturday in New Jersey seaside community, before setting off another one in Manhattan. We have Fox scene coverage tonight, a lot to get to, including the terror attack at a mall in Minnesota that injured nine. We begin this evening with Fox's Rick Leventhal, live in New York City. Rick?

RICK LEVENTHAL, FOX NEWS SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: And Kimberly, we're on 23rd street in the Chelsea neighborhood of Manhattan. This block still closed between 6th and 7th Avenues. The explosion on Saturday night was behind me on this block; rocked the buildings here, blew out glass, injured 29 people. Of course, they found that that was a pressure cooker bomb and they found a second pressure cooker four blocks to the north of us on 27th Street that did not detonate. As you mentioned, this actually started with another bomb, a pipe bomb that went off in Seaside Park, New Jersey, on Saturday morning. And then there was another pipe bomb that was found in Elizabeth, New Jersey, last night in a backpack with several other pipe bombs. But some of those bombs did not detonate. Some of the bombs in Seaside Park did not detonate on Saturday morning. And authority, apparently were able to connect all of these incidents, thanks to fingerprints and other (inaudible) evidence left behind by the bomber who has, as you mentioned has been identified as Ahmad Khan Rahami who, was in fact, was shot this morning. Some 49 hours after he detonated that first bomb according to authorities. He was involved in a shootout with Linden police who were called to a bar because the bar owner found some guy sleeping in the hallway, called police. They thought they recognized him. And in fact, it turned out to be the suspect, who the FBI had put out his picture just three hours earlier. Police recognized him. He pulled out a gun, began firing. They say they returned fire. There were several officers injured, but this suspect was taken down and is now -- we were told earlier in surgery and authorities, obviously, have a lot of questions for him.

GUILFOYLE: All right, Rick. Thanks. We're going to take around the table, a lot of questions at this hour. Dana?

DANA PERINO, CO-HOST: A lot of questions I think they will ask him that I will ask you and you might not know the answer. I'm trying to understand the stories that I've read about the family and I read that the family has no known terror connections. OK, I can buy that. But it also says that the brother might have helped radicalize. We heard this story before several times in recent years. And there's also the travel to Pakistan and Afghanistan, not necessarily the place where you go for spring break. So I'm wondering if you have any more information about that tie.

LEVENTHAL: Well, we have heard that Ahmad Rahami made several trips to Afghanistan in recent years. And one friend of his said that a couple of years ago he came back from one of these trips, a changed man. That it appeared he had been radicalized. This is something that authorities are looking into. We don't have any information about other members of the family, but we do know there was a complaint filed against Rahami by someone in a domestic dispute who apparently told authorities that Rahami had been radicalized. And authority say when they looked into it, they couldn't find any evidence of that. So they didn't pursue that. But now, of course, they're taking a second look and a very hard look at what may have turned this gut. In fact, he is the one who set off all these bombs and plant these other bombs across the region.

GUILFOYLE: All right, Greg?

GREG GUTFELD, CO-HOST: We keep hearing about the use of phones, whether they were used as timers or remote detonators. I'm wondering, is his father claiming that they are clocks for a science project? Could that be it? But how would the time --

LEVENTHAL: I haven't, I haven't heard that.

GUTFELD: How were the clocked used? I mean, are they were -- were they timers or detonators?

LEVENTHAL: My, my understanding is that there were three flip phones attached to these three devices in Seaside Park and then the two pressure cookers here on 23rd and 27th Streets. Apparently, they were used. They were hooked up with Christmas lights to the pressure cooker and to the pipe bombs. And then, you know, the belief is that you would call that flip phone and that phone call would set off the explosives. And this is a common tactic used by al-Qaeda and others in Middle East and where he got this information, how he assembled these bombs remains to be seen. But that apparently, was a telltale sign and I was told by, by sources on Sunday afternoon, they already had determined that all three of these incidents were connected to a single bomber. And then they were able to identify him through fingerprints and other (inaudible) evidence left at the scenes.

GUTFELD: I still have one more question. How are the facts -- how are the two officers that were shot? Are they OK?

LEVENTHAL: My understanding is one was grazed in the head and the other was hit in the chest and save by his protective vest. And I believe that they are both OK. I don't know if they are still being treated, another officer was treated for blood pressure that spiked during this incident. But as far as I know, none of them were serious injuries.

GUILFOYLE: OK, thank goodness. Tucker?

TUCKER CARLSON, GUEST Co-HOST: So Ricky said that Rahami was the subject of a domestic complaint and the persons' father later claimed and said, no, he is not really a radical. Do we know if the feds followed up on that -- A, and B, did they have any contact with Rahami, himself? Did he come in for questioning then or any other time, if you know?

LEVENTHAL: My understanding is they did, they did meet with him. They did talk to him, and their investigation led them to believe that they, was not a threat. But there were other incidents with Rahami and his family. They owned a chicken restaurant in Elizabeth, New Jersey, about a half mile from where those bombs were placed at the train station on Sunday night. And there were a lot of complaints from neighbors about that chicken restaurant that it was too loud, that they were staying open too late, the people were congregating there all hours in the night. So after all these complaints the town try to shut it down or at least made it close at 10 o'clock. And you know guys, with the family actually filed a lawsuit against the town to try and keep their place open. And apparently some compromise was reached were they can stay open until midnight or 1 a.m., but they were closing down after all these complaints were made by neighbors.

GUILFOYLE: All right, Juan. Do you have a question?

JUAN WILLIAMS, CO-HOST: Rick, really appreciative of the reporting you guys. It's been terrific. I just had two quick questions about how the FBI operated. One, what happened with the arrest made near the Verrazano Bridge? I've understand five people were taken into custody. Were they found to have any relationship to the suspect?

LEVENTHAL: Well, we don't know the full details of whether there's a relationship there or not. But we were told is that the authorities were tracking Rahami. They tracked this vehicle, because the occupants of the vehicle had been seen at a residence or location connected to Rahami. So they were tracking that vehicle and they pulled it over on the Belt Parkway last night, and there were five individuals, three men, two women pulled out of that vehicle. They were taken into custody and questioned. None of them were arrested. Whether they provided any information that was helpful to investigators, we don't know. We also don't know where those five people are at this hour. But again, we were told that they were not arrested and apparently are not suspects in this investigation.

WILLIAMS: And Rick, one other quick thought. You know, it's interesting how fast -- how fast the police, the FBI were able to get this guy. I understand that it is because of the phones themselves that they were able to connect the phones. Am I right?

LEVENTHAL: The phones, fingerprints, surveillance footage, there are thousands of cameras across the city, al linked to the NYPD.

WILLIAMS: Right.

LEVENTHAL: They apparently were able to identify him through footage collected at the scenes. Remember, the first bombing was Saturday morning. The explosion here was Saturday night. And they didn't release his photograph to the public until about three hours before he was caught in New Jersey. So they acted very, very fast, some 49 hours after the first blast went off. They had this guy in custody.

GUILFOYLE: All right, excellent job by Rick. Thanks so much for being on the show tonight.

LEVENTHAL: Thank you.

GUILFOYLE: And we turn now to our chief intelligence correspondent, Catherine Herridge who is live from Washington. So Catherine, a lot to discuss, we want to know, did officials pick up any chatter from the suspect prior to the attack?

CATHERINE HERRIDGE, CHIEF INTELLIGENCE CORRESPONDENT: Everything that we've learned to our contact today, Kimberly, suggests that this was not somebody who was on the radar of law enforcement as someone who was becoming radicalized. So he was not under surveillance. The threat pictures are leading up to 9/11, and into this week has been nothing specific or credible. But as the Homeland Security secretary recently told Fox, "You just can't hang your hat on that anymore." It's not the full picture, because there are going to be individual actors who can be plotting independently of a foreign terrorist group.

GUILFOYLE: All right. Dana has a question for you, Catherine.

PERINO: So, unlike other suspects, this one is actually -- he is wounded, but he is going to survive. And I'm curious from what you know, what do you think the most important questions are that he could possibly answer that could either give us additional Intel for possible other attacks or insight into how he was able to be under the radar as a radicalized American naturalized citizen.

HERRIDGE: Well, the good news today is that they were able to take him into custody for question and they were able to save his life, which is what they're doing right now. What's happening as sort of a second channel, if you will, or pathway in the investigation is that they are able to go through now his social media, his electronics, his computer and they can build out a profile of him and his network of contacts, and then they can marry that up to the questions that they can ask him about what he was doing, leading up to the first explosion at the race in New Jersey and then also the explosion in New York to try and assess based on what they have independent of him from his electronics and what he tells them whether he is being truthful about whether it was a plot that was affected by only himself and there were no others or whether he is, in fact, lying to the FBI and that, of course, would be an additional criminal charge, Dana.

GUILFOYLE: All right Tucker, you have a question?

CARLSON: Well, I mean, in contrast to so many others on militants attacking the west. This guy doesn't seem like he plans to die in doing I. He doesn't seem like he intended suicide. Is that a significant fact? Are we seeing a change in tactics?

HERRIDGE: It's very hard to get inside the mind of an individual like this, because everyone's path to radicalization is different. As we heard at the news conference in New York earlier today, this is something that they're trying to understand at this point whether he was on a slow boil for a while or whether it was something that really happened, what they call now sort of a very short flash to bang. So the flash to bang is sort of buying into the ideology and then deciding to act. What really has my attention is the trip to Afghanistan at this point. We're told there were handfuls, about three, but they were over about a six-year period. So it did not raise red flags with the authorities because they were not so frequent that it seemed that he would have to have some alternate form of financing. But you make a good point. He was not, it seemed on a suicide mission at the very end, but it's not uncommon to see individuals who lose their courage, frankly, for a lack of a better word when it comes at to those final moments.

GUILFOYLE: Greg?

GUTFELD: Yeah. I mean -- I think this is a pattern that -- yeah, I believe San Bernardino, Orlando and now this. It's always after a recent trip. I mean, are they -- is there any -- what is the cutoff? How do they monitor people with similar patterns? Does it have to be one trip within a year or three trips over three years? I mean, are people following this pattern?

HERRIDGE: Well, one of the sorts of a calculus as they make is whether these trips seem to exceed what this person's personal finances can really justify and afford. And I was told by a law enforcement contact that based on the pattern and the frequency, it did not seem to exceed this. I just want to bring you back if I can to one point that Rick Leventhal just made, which I think is where the story may go now in the next 24 hours. We've had two sources now confirm to Fox News that there was some prior contact between Rahami and the FBI, and it rose out of this domestic dispute. We're told that was some years ago. But in the course of that domestic dispute, we are told that was some years ago. But in the course of that domestic dispute, the family member made an allegation that he was getting radicalized and this was pursued by the FBI. And within the last few minutes, I was told that they did interview him in person and they felt that there was not enough to proceed at that point. Now, to be fair to the FBI, we have seen this in other cases like, like Boston. But you know, the way our system works is that you just -- if there's not enough there to proceed or to go forward, then they cannot leave these people on the radar indefinitely, if you will.

GUILFOYLE: That's disturbing. I think that Juan has a question. I think there were follow up.

HERRIDGE: Go ahead.

WILLIAMS: Catherine, what we saw this weekend, not only in New York, but then of course, in New Jersey and also Minnesota would lead to the question of whether or not what you are getting is directions from the terrorist overseas to go after soft targets. What do we know?

HERRIDGE: Well, both ISIS and al-Qaeda have been doing what has been described by the FBI director as the crowd sourcing of terrorism, which is they pulse out this message to attack where you are and to hit soft targets hoping that, you know, one fraction of one percent that sufficiently radicalized will act on that information. We have seen no evidence, so far, that the suspect in New York or the suspect in Minneapolis had direct contact with a terrorist group and they were then directed to act in a certain way and in a certain time frame. So that's not there yet, but we're still in early days at least in New York.

GUILFOYLE: But Catherine, there is some indication with respect to the Minnesota attack that that was at least -- they took credit for it in one of the --

HERRIDGE: That's correct.

GUILFOYLE: . publications that ISIS did.

HERRIDGE: Now ISIS has what I would call an official propaganda mouthpiece that they put out claims of responsible. They did that over the weekend. Everything I have heard from my contacts is that does appear to have been an ISIS-inspired event as opposed to --

GUILFOYLE: Of course it's directed.

HERRIDGE: An ISIS, that's right. Directed. But unfortunately, at the end of the day for the people who were stabbed in that mall, I'm not really sure it makes much of a difference.

GUILFOYLE: You are right about that. All right, that's always excellent reporting. Thank you so much.

HERRIDGE: You're welcome.

GUILFOYLE: And more to come. Ahead, is political correctness getting in the way of the war or terror? I'd say so. New York City's mayor is still having a hard time definitively calling the bombing in Manhattan, an act of terror, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PERINO: Welcome back. It became clear very quickly that Saturday night's explosion in Manhattan was a terror attack and no accident. But New York's governor and New York City's mayor seemed to downplay it initially.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL DE BLASIO, NEW YORK CITY MAYOR: There's no evidence at this point of a terror connection.

ANDREW CUOMO, NEW YORK GOVERNOR: I believe the mayor was saying there was no connection with international terrorism. And that is correct.

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC NEWS "GOOD MORNING AMERICA" CO-ANCHOR: Yesterday, you were reluctant to call this an act of terrorism. Are you prepared now to say it was?

DE BLASIO: We'll say more in the next few hours, but it's definitely leaning in that direction the more we know.

CUOMO: Yesterday, we had no evidence suggesting an international terrorist attack, stimulated by a foreign presence or a foreign body. Today, I believe we're going to find out that it was influenced by foreign forces.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PERINO: Mayor de Blasio, appear to finally accept the reality today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DE BLASIO: Based on the information we have now, we have every reason to believe this was an act of terror.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PERINO: President Obama did not comment until this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, UNITED STATES PRESIDENT: Folks around here -- yeah, they don't get scared. They're tough. They're resilient. They go about their business every single day. That's the kind of strength that is going to be absolutely critical, not just in the days to come, but in the years to come by showing those who want to do us harm that they will never beat us, by showing the entire world that as Americans, we do not and never will give in to fear.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PERINO: All right, Gutfeld, what did you make of that?

GUTFELD: Unless it's a Tea Partier. Do you remember after the Times Square event, Mayor Bloomberg said, "Hey, it could be a Tea Partier upset with ObamaCare." We don't want to stigmatize any egregious group, unless it's somebody that is acceptable by the media. Plus, the media finds it easier to take firm stands on small things like language versus action. They will go after Donald Trump for saying it's a bomb. Rather than getting really upset over the fact that it's a bomb itself. I saw an ad for President Obama on Anthony Bourdain show. He was asked if you should ever put ketchup on a hotdog. He said unequivocally, "No, never do that." It's a small example that shows how you can take though -- you can take tough decisions for abject silliness. But when it comes to real threat, you become this kind of ambivalent like mushy thing, you over, over-language and not actions. But man, you can just go up on a hotdog with ketchup. And the other thing I love about this story or the stories, no guns are involved in what happened in New Jersey and New York, so it creates a challenge for the left. They can't deflect from their incompetence when dealing with terror to the NRA. They can't blame the NRA. It's a pressure cooker, not a bomb. So maybe they should go after crate and barrel.

GUILFOYLE: OK, that was worst. But I like the ketchup thing.

(CROSSTALK)

GUTFELD: What?

PERINO: No, I see --

GUILFOYLE: I like it.

PERINO: I see your point. And I think that you are possibly going to run for mayor of New York, we can convince you to do so at some point --

GUILFOYLE: Or me.

GUTFELD: I will be your speech writer.

GUTFELD: I know you will be good.

PERINO: De Blasio has the gift for understatement or was he just hoping that --

(CROSSTALK)

GUILFOYLE: He has a gift for cowardice. That's what he does. He is a feckless leader. He has definitely not done any good for New York City. This is the guy I think I can't wait for him to be out of office. And this was an example, this weekend, of how he handled this. And he is literally frightened of words and tall as big as he is, he is frightened of words. Words scare him because he is trapped by ideology which makes him an ineffectual, cowardly leader, and not one that a city like New York City needs. And furthermore, to me, this is not a war of narrative. But this is a war of, you know, culture of idea, of religion. Let's be honest. And those that would follow radical Islamic terrorism and those that would not. People that crucify children, and bury people alive, and drawn them in cages, and light them on fire, and those that would not.

PERINO: Or was de Blasio just trying to be calm and like, just like everything is OK, New York City. You were reporting it live on the air on Sunday morning.

CARLSON: Here's the paradox in their effort --

GUILFOYLE: Be careful Tucker.

CARLSON: In their effort to make sure that nobody gets too uptight about it, nobody gets too worry. They scare the hell out of all of us, because their euphemism is read for what it is; which is dishonesty. They're lying to us and we know it, contrast to de Blasio's response to Governor Cuomo's response. They're not that different politically. But Cuomo, as far after for what he has said, and he's a political loser. Cuomo wants to run for president if Hillary loses. And so he understands if he gets out there and equivocates, that's a deal killer. But what they are doing? What are they afraid of?

GUILFOYLE: Right.

CARLSON: They're afraid of the population of the United States. They downplayed the threat from radical Islam, a hundred and sixty-three people, killed or wounded in the last year in United States, a consumer products killed a hundred and wounded a hundred sixty-three people. It would be banned immediately. But they're afraid if they tell the truth about it the average person is so stupid and addicted to OxyContin, the thing rise up and start murdering Muslims. They don't trust Americans. That's why they lie about it.

PERINO: What do you think, Juan?

GUILFOYLE: Interesting.

WILLIAMS: I just think something so completely different. I mean, the fact is that you have, you know, a problem with the idea of Islam versus the United States that, you know, we don't want to feed that narrative. I don't think anybody wants to feed it. And secondly --

GUTFELD: How about Islamism?

GUILFOYLE: Right.

WILLIAMS: I think secondly, you have in this situation, a real attempt to say, this is what we know, this is what we don't know to not get ahead of the story, to not feed wrong expectation. I mean, the other day in Central Park, you had a kid, you know jump and there was an explosive device. We don't know who planted that device. I mean you could say, oh, it must have been this. We had an airplane go down some time if you recall. And some people say, oh, yeah, it must have been terror. We still don't know .

CARLSON: Right.

WILLIAMS: . if there was a fire on the plane, apparently.

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: Presbyterian.

WILLIAMS: It's -- oh no, no, that's but -- again, Tucker, you're making it --

GUILFOYLE: Right.

WILLIAMS: Oh, it might be.

GUILFOYLE: It is radical groups.

CARLSON: All I'm saying --

GUILFOYLE: Radical groups.

GUTFELD: No, I am too. But you know, no. But here is the interesting argument that Juan presents, which is what the media presents. Never jump to the conclusions unless the conclusions that we share.

CARLSON: Exactly.

GUTFELD: For example, if you think it's terror, you are jumping to conclusion. But saying that it's not terror, that's also a jump to a conclusion, because then you always turn out to be wrong.

CARLSON: Also but --

GUTFELD: It's the same thing.

WILLIAMS: What if you say you don't know?

PERINO: We have to run fast.

GUTFELD: Oh, I say I don't know. But I can say, I don't know, but I have a feeling. When I see a bomb and I have a feeling I know what it is.

(CROSSTALK)

GUTFELD: But I don't say --

GUILFOYLE: And look at Germany and Angela Merkel and then the result of this political correctness and uncontrolled immigration. How is it working out over there?

GUTFELD: And then we're also, we're also always worried about a backlash. I mean, imagine getting hit by a car and you are injured and the first thing you worry about is, well I hope the driver's premiums don't go up. That's not how you think. That's how a backslash work.

PERINO: And we're going to have from you .

GUILFOYLE: I love that.

PERINO: . because you are next. Thankfully, there were no casualties from this weekend terror attacks, but did that diminish how we responded to them? Greg has his take on that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GUTFELD: Fact: We treat failed terror different than successful terror. But the only difference between one outcome and another, is luck.

Even if no one innocent dies, we must pretend otherwise. The Chelsea attacks didn't stop the bar hopping in New York, I can attest to that personally.

The upside: Not letting the attack rattle you deflates the role of the fiend. It's our way of saying, go screw yourself, fiend.

The downside: It seems we've gotten used to it. But if it were 29 deaths, not 29 injuries, we'd act different. That's wrong. For relying on chance or the bumbling of terrorists for our safety is nuts. It's no different than leaving your front door open because you haven't been robbed yet.

Terror is an organism that learns from failure. You couldn't have 9/11 without the first bombing in '93. Failure shapes knowledge.

The best response? A holy one -- meaning filling a fiend full of holes.

In St. Cloud, off-duty officer Jason Falconer quickly hardened the soft target that was a mall, by adding a gun to the mix, saving lives, killing a terrorist. It's all about hardening soft targets. And sorry, Hollywood: Jason is an NRA-certified firearms instructor. Don't you love it?

GUILFOYLE: Yes.

GUTFELD: Falconer's act offers a powerful side by side comparison:

Without a gun, a terrorist stabs people without interruption.

When a gun appears, the terrorist is dead.

I'd call that a pretty good cause and effect.

GUTFELD: Falconer's act offers a powerful side-by-side comparison. Without a gun, a terrorist stabs people without interruption. When a gun appears, the terrorist is dead. I call that a pretty good cause and effect.

Can you imagine somebody like him was in other -- in other parts of the country when these terrorist attacks took place?

GUILFOYLE: Hey, I would love it. We've talked about this so many times on this show over the past five years. It is so true. This is the best example.

Look at the difference of one individual properly certified, allowed to carry a gun, a certified firearms instructor. He, like, saved lives right there by just shutting it down. If the terrorist knew that -- and others that would come and do this, et cetera, that someone like this individual would be there, they would think twice before going to our schools, to our malls, to any other place like movie theaters that are soft targets.

We see the same pattern. You talk about shaping knowledge. When will you adhere to the lesson plan and learn and move onto go to the next grade? Like, that's what -- I feel like sometimes as a country and as an administration and politically, we keep repeating the same grade.

WILLIAMS: You know, I just find this so wrongheaded I don't even know where to begin.

GUTFELD: You always do.

WILLIAMS: Because we have so many examples of where there had been armed guards, like at a movie theater or Fort Hood, and you know what?

GUTFELD: One. There was one.

Nobody armed at Fort Hood.

WILLIAMS: What are you talking about? They're on a military base.

GUTFELD: They had -- they're not allowed to have guns in the -- yes.

WILLIAMS: Inside. But there are people...

GUTFELD: That's where they were killed.

WILLIAMS: No, but I'm just saying how was -- what happened to the shooter? He was shot.

GUTFELD: Shot after how many people were killed? How many, 13, 14 people?

WILLIAMS: Here's the issue, then. You have everybody with a gun. Everybody is going to have a wild, wild west situation. And you're going to say, well, you know, too bad.

GUTFELD: You should read up on the wild, wild west.

GUILFOYLE: That hasn't proved itself to be true in places where carrying a concealed weapon is legal.

WILLIAMS: Of course it has. Because in the movie theater situation, what happened? Nobody was stopped.

CARLSON: That's one example.

GUTFELD: Not in the gun-free zone.

CARLSON: And you would rather in the end have someone with a gun protecting you than not. That's why our political leaders are surrounded by guns...

WILLIAMS: Sure.

CARLSON: ... at all times.

But all of this is addressing the problem at an end stage. If you can fill every public space full of people with guns, in some sense you've already lost.

Why is the threat here in the first place is the question? And I think it's pretty obvious. It has obvious implications for our immigration and our refugee resettlement policies.

GUILFOYLE: Yes.

CARLSON: And everyone is so afraid to say it. We didn't have these problems when I was a child. I'm not 100; I'm 47. Nothing like this happened. And there was a reason for that, because -- you know the reason. OK, so why can't we speak openly about that?

GUTFELD: Right.

CARLSON: What's the answer?

GUTFELD: We are. We are in the E-block.

CARLSON: No, I think most Muslims in America are awesome. I know a bunch. I had lunch with them on Saturday. But if you have a large population that doesn't assimilate, it's a problem.

But flip it around. Is there a large population anywhere in the west that hasn't assimilated that hasn't caused problems like this? If there is one, I would like to know what they're doing that we're not.

GUILFOYLE: You're saying that multi-culturalism is, in fact -- can be an enemy?

CARLSON: I'm just noting the obvious. We didn't have these problems in Minnesota 30 years ago. Now we do. Why is that?

GUILFOYLE: Because -- because it shouldn't be separate and distinct. You should assimilate. You should learn to come together and grow together and listen to each other and not have separate and disparate communities that don't adhere to the same rule of law.

GUTFELD: Wait. I want to bring Dana in here. Because -- because they're making so much sense that I want to see Dana top this.

The natural reaction is that the body count is not that bad. You kind of got -- I mean, I was out -- New York doesn't stop. Is that a good or a bad thing?

PERINO: I thought your -- I thought your monologue was very, very smart.

GUTFELD: Thank you.

PERINO: I think that it is good for the people...

GUTFELD: Yes.

PERINO: ... to move on, right, and go about their business. But it is a big lesson to be learned by law enforcement and FBI, CIA, intel.

And I do think -- we're going to talk about the politics of all this next. Learning from failure is really important. We can learn, too.

GUTFELD: Yes.

PERINO: If the terrorists learn from failure, so can we.

GUTFELD: Yes.

PERINO: Part of this is that the threat has evolved so much, and the technology is so different that one of the ways that they learn from failure is any sort of wannabe terrorist looks at this: what did he do wrong?

GUTFELD: Right.

PERINO: What could I do better next time?

GUTFELD: Exactly.

PERINO: And the way they communicate, through their phones or through the -- dark Internet, it's very difficult for human beings to stop it if you're on the right side of things. So we've got to, I think, have a lot more imagination on how we're going to fight it.

GUILFOYLE: And just...

WILLIAMS: Tucker, by the way, Tucker, thirty years ago there was nobody in that Texas tower shooting at people? Thirty -- I mean, there's no guy in South Carolina killing black people?

CARLSON: There has always been crazy.

WILLIAMS: That's right. There have always been crazies.

CARLSON: But there weren't 160 people.

WILLIAMS: But now we have them inspired by radical Islamic jihad.

PERINO: Radical Islam is different.

CARLSON: You're being disingenuous.

WILLIAMS: OK, go ahead.

CARLSON: The scale is different. No, I'm just saying the numbers...

WILLIAMS: The scale is different? You think that, in fact, these crazy people shooting people in a Texas tower or killing people in a movie theater, Americans -- I see.

GUTFELD: They're not -- Juan, they're not unified by a toxic ideology.

WILLIAMS: What's unified is that you say, "Oh, I can identify the few people who have been killed as a result of radical Islamists." Yes, but you don't pay attention to the other crazy people out there shooting, because it doesn't fit your narrative.

CARLSON: But it's not that few anymore.

GUILFOYLE: Don't -- you don't want to disregard the 163 lives lost here.

GUTFELD: The crazy guy in Texas from wherever with Charles Whitman, he didn't have in his head that he was going to destroy western civilization. That's a big difference.

WILLIAMS: No. He had in his mind he was going to kill you.

GUTFELD: Actually, he had a brain tumor.

WILLIAMS: All right. (AUDIO GAP) Crazy people.

GUTFELD: No. It's not crazy to have a brain tumor.

The presidential nominees are blaming each our for the terror attacks here at home. Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WILLIAMS: The new attacks on our soil have revived the debate on who could better protect our country from future attacks. Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump? With the election just 50 days away, both nominees traded blame over global terror today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: A lot of the rhetoric we've heard from Donald Trump has been seized on by terrorists, in particular ISIS. Because they are looking to make this into a war against Islam, rather than a war against jihadists.

The facts are pretty clear that we still have challenges. That's what I have been talking about throughout this campaign. I am prepared to, ready to actually take on those challenges, not engage in a lot of, you know, irresponsible, reckless rhetoric, but to do the hard work, as I have done before.

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: She very much caused the problem when you think about it. Her weakness, her ineffectiveness caused the problem. And now she wants to be president. I don't think so.

So Hillary Clinton's policies in Iraq, Libya, Syria, other places, are largely responsible for the rise of ISIS in the first place. Her attacks on me are all meant to deflect from her record of unleashing this monster of evil on us and all over the world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAMS: So Trump says she caused the problem, Hillary Clinton -- Dana.

PERINO: I think...

CARLSON: Both said that.

PERINO: Yes, they're both blaming each other for radical Islam. There's one thing to blame for radical Islam; it's radical Islam. It is not Americans. We are in this together, as a country, as a western civilization.

I'm exceedingly uncomfortable when politicians from either side try to score points based on a terrorist attack.

Now, I do think there's legitimate things to ask them, which is what is your approach? What are you willing to do? And I think the tough thing for her right now is today she was supposed to kick off this appeal to millennials.

She's in a little bit of a box. She would have been tougher on Assad, and she would have taken a different attack on Syria and attacked. We know that from her own book, from Gates, Panetta, everybody who said they disagreed with Obama. I actually think she can afford to be a little bit more tough sounding. But that's from me. She doesn't -- I'm not her audience. The millennials are her audience for this week in particular. And they are afraid of her hawkishness. So she's in a box.

WILLIAMS: She is more hawkish than Obama. I don't think there's any question.

PERINO: But that's the thing that millennials don't like about her. Or Tucker.

WILLIAMS: Tucker doesn't like that?

CARLSON: At all. I mean, I don't see how any normal person could look at Libya and say, you know, if you're going to knock off the secular leader of this deeply divided country, and hope that something good happens, especially after watching what's happened in Iraq. Like, who would reach that conclusion? Not a wise person.

I don't think it's fair to blame ISIS on her, you know, exclusively. But that really did make the world worse. And she's never accounted for it. And I think she ought to. That's a legitimate...

GUILFOYLE: Arab Spring.

WILLIAMS: Well, let me just look at the numbers here, because the numbers are that the American people trust Republicans more in dealing with terrorism, like 51/45 in general. But when it comes to issue of temperament, they prefer Clinton over Trump. And when it comes to who's the better candidate to be in commander in chief, again, it's 50/40, Clinton over Trump.

What do you think, Kimberly?

GUILFOYLE: Yes. Look, she sounds kind of just a little bit -- I don't know, low, kind of not very kind of up on things. I don't know. Her affect to me seems a little bit -- almost like kind of, like, depressed. I think she can show a little bit more kind of, you know, outrage or something.

I hear what Dana is saying about the millennials. But I also think there's other people out there. And she's torn, because she really wants to hold onto millennials. But what about the independents? What about some of the other voters that she could try to pick off in battleground states?

She's -- she's in a tough position. This is not where she wanted to be 50 days out.

WILLIAMS: Greg, what about -- what about the idea -- she says she has the resolve, the knowhow, the experience. But Trump clearly has a style that appeals to anybody who says go get those bad guys.

GUTFELD: She -- I mean, I'm sorry, she looks weak. He looks strong. She's projecting the image of an out-of-touch bureaucrat.

When she was on that plane, I mean, she -- her head was in the clouds. This isn't about yoga. And when you see her get really angry about stuff and her voice goes up, it's never about this stuff. It's always about identity or other things like that. But it's never about the threats against the United States.

And by the way, the world is shaping this election. It may not be that America rejects Hillary. It's that the world is rejecting Hillary. I mean, the events that are taking place right now are basically saying, "We don't have time for this person. We need somebody who projects strength, even if it's just a perception."

PERINO: I'm curious about the strength, though. Because I would understand if that was to go after ISIS where they are or in Libya. Like, if you're going to, like, full on use the military. Then what comes after that? Who holds it after that?

In the meantime, Rahimi [SIC], whatever his name is, Rahami...

GUILFOYLE: Rahami.

PERINO: ... he lives here. He's a naturalized American. You are not going to shoot him full of bullets. You can't find him.

WILLIAMS: So the question is, does Trump -- does Trump polarize us most? Does he feed...

GUTFELD: I'm talking about -- I'm talking about the perception of Hillary.

WILLIAMS: Right. You like the -- you like the bellicose...

GUTFELD: No, I'm saying, I don't like a weak person.

GUILFOYLE: She seems out of it.

WILLIAMS: I don't think she's a weak person.

GUILFOYLE: She seems out of it.

GUTFELD: She's had a weak couple of weeks, Juan.

GUILFOYLE: Sounds bad.

WILLIAMS: OK, I have -- I'm being told to go, so let's go.

There are fresh concerns about bringing in more refugees to the USA following these latest attacks. We're going to debate that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON: Well, a man shouting "Allah" went on a stabbing rampage inside a shopping mall in Minnesota this weekend in St. Cloud. Twenty-two-year-old Dahir Adan was a member of the Somali community in that city. Locals have been sounding the alarm over the influx of Somali refugees for years there. You know how their governor has responded to them? By telling them they're intolerant. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. MARK DAYTON (D), MINNESOTA: This is St. Cloud. Everybody here has a right to be here as much as anybody else. And if you can't accept that, then find another state.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARLSON: Governor, we want to bring this report to your attention. A new homeland security audit has revealed that our government has mistakenly granted citizenship to more than 800 people from countries like Somalia that were people who were actually supposed to be deported but instead are now voting in this election.

So Greg, I'm struck by the anti-democratic nature of our immigration refugee policies. If I said to you, "I'm giving you a new roommate who's going to share your bathroom and fridge, you would say, 'I want some say in that.'"

And yet, our elected officials say, "We're moving people into your neighborhood. And by the way, shut up if you don't like it."

GUTFELD: Yes. The thing is, I understand what he's saying is that, like, I've said this before. I was born here. I'm lucky. I didn't have a choice to be here. I didn't have a machine that said, "San Mateo, California, two parents." I didn't have that.

Having said that, there has to be an adult perspective here. To preserve the type of country that people want to flock to and come to, you must be resolute in vetting it. You have to -- you can have both. You can have the people that want to come here, but you've got to go through that haystack and find all those needles.

CARLSON: What about the missing part, which is the consent of the governor, the rest of us? I mean, shouldn't people in St. Cloud or Minneapolis or Lewiston, Maine, or any town that has a lot of refugees have a say in this? Nobody ever asks them their opinion. Why?

PERINO: They don't. And the governor doesn't have to live where the immigrants are living.

CARLSON: Exactly.

PERINO: That doesn't -- I'm not saying that doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to figure out a way to help assimilate. I grew up in a household that, every weekend, through the Lutheran World Relief, we were helping resettle refugees from the former Soviet Union. And that affected me deeply.

But I understand this problem. I'll tell you something to watch. Republicans and Democrats are going to have to fund this government, our government, on -- by September 30. And I would believe this issue could become a big one in that debate.

CARLSON: I hope so.

PERINO: Watch for that.

CARLSON: I hope so, because that would at least be democratic.

So Kimberly, 63 Americans have been killed...

GUILFOYLE: Yes.

CARLSON: ... by Islamic terrorists this year. If 63 Somali immigrants were killed by mobs, which would be obviously horrible, the president would -- I don't know what they would do. Freak out. They would not take the sort of everything is fine stand that they're taking with respect to Islamic terrorism.

GUILFOYLE: No. Because that isn't in step with his political ideology and the one that is American exceptionalism is to -- is not to be, you know, talked about or celebrated. That it's -- we owe an obligation to the world to make sure to redress the wrongs that we have committed against other religions, against other ideologies. So there's been sort of that, you know, appeasement and apology tour that we've seen in this administration for the past seven and a half years.

But I want to touch on the point that you make, which I think is an important one. And it's an issue of public safety and about the people who are here that are paying taxes and in the communities, not just in Minneapolis but throughout this great country, that have a right to public safety, to feel safe in their homes and for the government to do its job to properly vet.

There is no unreasonableness in expecting competency from the government, especially as it relates to our safety and security in communities.

CARLSON: Yes, and not just safety and security but also, like -- I don't know -- shouldn't you be in charge of your country? I mean, this is a democracy.

WILLIAMS: You are in charge.

CARLSON: In what sense?

WILLIAMS: It's a constitutional democracy that allows for constitutional protections and rights. And I don't want you voting on my rights as long as I'm an American. You know what? I want my Constitution. And therefore, it's not up to you to say, "Hey, we want Juan out." No, that's not -- that's not American.

PERINO: What about -- what about...

WILLIAMS: It's not America to...

CARLSON: I want you to stay, Juan.

WILLIAMS: Look at American history, Tucker. Look at the way the Japanese were handled during World War II, to our great shame as Americans.

CARLSON: Right, right. It was a bad choice of FDR to do that.

WILLIAMS: OK. And look and think about the attitude towards the Italians, the Irish immigrants.

CARLSON: OK. I'm feeling sick to my stomach. We're talking not about American citizens but about Somali refugees, who are not American citizens.

GUILFOYLE: And what -- and why -- the two don't have to be inconsistent.

CARLSON: I'm being barked at. I'm new to this show. They're telling me to go to tease. Sorry.

GUILFOYLE: What about proper vetting?

CARLSON: We've got some final thoughts ahead, so don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GUILFOYLE: Welcome back to "The Five." Some final thoughts from all of us.

CARLSON: You're so sweet.

GUILFOYLE: OK, Juan. Thank you, Tucker. This is "FOX & Friends."

A good Samaritan bringing Starbucks coffee and treats to members of the NYPD and the FDNY yesterday as a thank you for their hard work in the wake of the explosion in Chelsea. One officer describing the gesture as awesome and saying that "We're very grateful for the tremendous outpouring of support."

We do want to say, on behalf of "The Five," God bless New York City's emergency personnel.

Greg.

GUTFELD: Similar point. Tonight, "Monday Night Football." It's Monday. I hear there might be some NFL players doing some kind of another protest in support of Colin Kaepernick. And of course, it's not about patriotism. It's about law enforcement.

So as you deliver your seated protest or your kneeled protest, remember that Officer Falconer did not seat -- was not seated when he did what he did. Nor did the law enforcement of New Jersey and New York City, did not remain seated while there were terrorists on the loose in New York.

So remain seated.

GUILFOYLE: I love it, Greg. You pleased me today.

Dana.

PERINO: Well, last night on the little podcast show we're doing, Chris Stire -- Stirewalt. That's his name. I actually know who he is. Chris Stirewalt and I, we meant to have this thing called "Where Do You Find America?" We ran out of time. But I want to show two pictures. We asked people, "Where do you find America?" This is where Pam Allred (ph). She is from Georgia. She's -- this is the Georgia Veterans National Cemetery in Campton (ph), Georgia. Which I thought that was beautiful.

GUILFOYLE: Very nice.

PERINO: And then this is from Wendy, and it shows her 2 1/2-year-old granddaughter. Wendy's granddaughter's father is based in Eglin Air Force Base in Florida. And when they were facetiming, she heard the national anthem and stood and put her hand over her heart. How cute is that?

GUILFOYLE: God bless her.

PERINO: That's where they find America, and you can send us more on that.

GUILFOYLE: And congratulations on the show. It was fantastic.

GUTFELD: Very good.

GUILFOYLE: Yes, brand-new show.

PERINO: ... last night.

GUILFOYLE: There you go. They'll be, like, a couple.

Juan.

WILLIAMS: I want you to look at this picture. So this is the suspect today after he was captured after a shootout with police. And I want you to think about what this image says, because to me, this is the greatness of our country. This is a man who was suspected of conducting a heinous attack on our country, threatening the lives of people. In our country, he's arrested; he is given medical treatment; and he is allowed his rights.

Wow. What a message to the bad guys. America, we treat people with dignity, even our enemies and even if you want to say Muslims, whatever, we don't somehow stone and spit on them or kill them in the street.

PERINO: Indeed. OK.

CARLSON: So we have found the least cynical, sweetest person in New York. Her name is Jane Shrive (ph). She lives on 27th Street. There she is, professional photographer. She heard the bomb go off. It was right near her house the other night. She thought it was thunder. So she goes outside, didn't consider a bomb. She sees this pressure cooker with wires coming out of it. She thought it was a kid's science project.

Then she calls the cops. They show up and say, "Holy smokes. There's a bomb. Run!" So she does, and she spends the next four hours doing what? Playing Scrabble.

She saved lives and then played Scrabble. A nice person.

GUTFELD: And the two homeless men who found the other bombs in New Jersey.

GUILFOYLE: If you see something, say something. All right. Fantastic country. God bless you all. Thank you. "Special Report" is next.

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