This is a rush transcript from "Sunday Morning Futures," July 10, 2016. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
MARIA BARTIROMO, HOST: Good morning.
More protests and growing tensions following the murders of five Dallas police officers.
Hi, everyone. Welcome. I'm Maria Bartiromo and this is "Sunday Morning Futures."
Dozens of cities on alert this morning as large crowds take to the streets. How are police officers responding following the heartbreaking week in Dallas?
Joining us this morning, former New York City Police Commissioner Ray Kelly, Texas Congressman Pete Sessions, Wisconsin Sheriff David Clarke, and Bill Johnson, head of one of the largest police unions.
Plus, Attorney General Loretta Lynch gets set to testify this week in the Hillary Clinton e-mail investigation. We will hear from the former director of the FBI on James Comey's testimony last week, along with Congressman Darrell Issa, as we look ahead on "Sunday Morning Futures" right now.
The attack against Dallas police officers putting police in cities nationwide on high alert, this as protests are erupting for the fourth straight day this morning following the fatal shootings two of black men at the hands of the police in Minnesota and Louisiana. More than 200 people arrested as some of the protests took a violent turn.
There have also been more attacks against officers as well as a threat against the Dallas Police Department this morning. We look now at how law enforcement and the communities they protect are coping with this growing unrest.
Joining me right now is Ray Kelly. He is the former New York City police commissioner and the vice chairman of K-2 Intelligence. He is also author of the book "Vigilance."
Commissioner, nice to have you on the program this morning. Thanks very much for joining us.
RAY KELLY, FORMER NEW YORK CITY POLICE COMMISSIONER: Good to be with you, Maria.
BARTIROMO: My condolences and the country's condolences to you and your former colleagues there. What has happened in this country?
KELLY: Well, it certainly has been a terrible week of violence. There's been a lot of vitriol felt by a lot of people directed at the police. Then we saw the terrible carnage on the streets of Dallas as a result of that vitriol.
So, hopefully, we can get back to some sense of normalcy in the days and weeks to come, but it's been a very difficult time for police officers. I think you saw the best of the traditions of U.S. policing by the Dallas police force reacting when those shots were fired. Yes, their colleagues were struck down, but they ran into the face of fire to rescue them. And I think it certainly made me proud, and I know everyone else in law enforcement thought they did a great job, in spite of this horrific carnage.
BARTIROMO: You and I have spoken in the past about the so-called Ferguson Effect, where police officers have changed their approach to crime. Do you see that persisting right now? What would you say is the difference in terms of the approach that police officers are taking today versus several years ago.
KELLY: Well, let me say this, I have never seen police officers, I'm not seeing it today, back away from any emergency situation. But I do think there's been a hesitancy as far as discretionary acts are concerned, things that are referred to as proactive policing. Yes, the police have backed off from that. They're concerned about their jobs. They're concerned about being criticized. But in terms of responding to emergencies, there's no backing off at all.
BARTIROMO: And you've seen so much throughout your career, from the time you first became a cop. What can you tell us in terms of how the police force has changed?
KELLY: Well, it's changed tremendously. Back in the '60s, of course, we saw major riots in New York City. We had very few minority officers. Now you see diversity spread throughout the country, you see African-American chiefs in charge of major city police departments. We saw Chief Brown, we see Superintendent Johnson in Chicago. In two weeks, we're going to have conventions, in each of those convention cities the chiefs are African- American.
I think community policing is working in some locations, but right now it's a dangerous time for police officers. And the shootings in Dallas I think showed the vulnerability of all officers. That shooting, let's face it, could have happened anywhere, just because this individual lived near Dallas that it happened there.
So, it's a tough time to be a police officer, but they're going to stick together and still going to get the job done as far as emergency and as far as serious crime is concerned.
BARTIROMO: I want to cover a couple of things. In terms of the approach and the way the police officers' jobs may change, we've spoken in the past about body cameras, about new technology that has come into the situation to assist those trying to protect the country. What do you see in terms of changes and how the police force might look different?
KELLY: Well, I think body cameras are here to stay. Some departments have embraced it. Others are a little bit more reluctant. But probably in five to seven years, you'll see that as a standard piece of equipment.
I think that's a good thing, because you'll see these YouTube videos that will cover an incident and start midway through it. Now, we'll have the opportunity to look at the entire event as it happens, and I think it will show so much beneficial good heroic work that's done by the police throughout the country.
BARTIROMO: What do you -- what do you want to see in terms of leadership? Commissioner, everybody I speak with says the same thing -- we need leadership, we need someone to bring us together, we need people to understand what all of the people are feeling. What would be that leadership change?
KELLY: Well, I think we need leadership that tells it like it is. I think we need to change in policing. I think we need better educated officers. I think we need more scenario-based training so officers are encountering situations in the police academy and not on the street.
And quite frankly, we need leadership in minority communities. There's way too much crime in communities of color. Police contacts, even though African-Americans are 13 percent of the population, they're about 30 percent of the police contacts throughout the country. We need to see a major push to reduce crime in communities of color.
BARTIROMO: You mentioned the conventions that's coming in the next week. You've got the Republican convention beginning on Sunday and then the Dems' convention beginning a week later. Are you expecting heightened violence at these conventions?
KELLY: Well, I think there will be major demonstrations. Whether or not they develop into violence I guess remains to be seen. There's been a lot of planning, a lot of training. Secret Service has led that in both Cleveland and Philadelphia.
Again, there's been a lot of harsh words spoken. We'll see what happens. I think they're pretty well-prepared for it, but it's going to be a challenge, no question about it.
We had a convention in New York in 2004, and we had the largest demonstration ever at a political convention. And ultimately, it all worked out.
BARTIROMO: You know, this morning we're reading headlines of Black Lives Matter protest planning across the country, scores of protesters arrested overnight in Minnesota, again. We're seeing such vitriol. What should people take away in this moment of uncertainty, in this moment of lawlessness?
As a leader in your community, what do you think the people should be thinking about on both sides, whether it is someone upset with the police or someone in the police upset with the people?
KELLY: Well, look, our country is based on First Amendment principles. We want people to demonstrate, to voice their opinion, we want them to do it responsibly and peacefully, and that's what leaders should be talking about.
And I think the police will continue to do their job. As you said, all over the country, we see these demonstrations, but all indications are they're being well-policed. And certainly, the police have reason to be anxious these days after what we saw last week.
So, we want responsible leadership to speak about and address the issues of responsibility and only -- only doing the right thing and not embarking on violence with police. It gets us absolutely nowhere. I've seen progress, certainly, in my time, as I said, but that progress is based largely on communication, on speaking. If both sides sort of separate and are not talking, we're going to be in for, you know, for a hard time.
BARTIROMO: Commissioner, thanks very much for weighing in this morning. We appreciate it.
KELLY: Thank you, Maria.
BARTIROMO: We will see you soon. Commissioner Ray Kelly joining us this morning.
We're learning new details this morning about the shooter behind the Dallas shootings. Did he have a larger attack planned?
Plus, how is the community responding? Up next, we talk with Congressman Pete Sessions.
Hope you follow me @mariabartiromo, @sundayfutures. Let us know what you'd like to hear from Congressman Sessions, as well as our guest later on in the program. Jim Kallstrom coming from the FBI.
This is "Sunday Morning Futures." We'll be right back.
BARTIROMO: Welcome back.
Police in Dallas and across the country on edge this morning following the brutal ambush that left five officers dead last week as well as last night's anonymous threat against Dallas law enforcement. We're also learning that the shooter, Micah Johnson, might have been planning a much larger attack than the deadly assault he carried out in Dallas.
Congressman Pete Sessions of Texas is with us, whose district includes Dallas. He is joining us right now to talk more about it.
Congressman, thanks very much for joining us.
REP. PETE SESSIONS, R-TEXAS: Maria, good morning.
BARTIROMO: Set the stage for us in terms of the scene in Dallas right now. Are emotions still on edge? What can you tell us in terms of how people are feeling right now?
SESSIONS: Thank you very much.
In fact, the Dallas community has a number of circumstances, as you allude to. First of all, the Dallas community has come out in strong support of our police department that is one of the finest in America, a police department that was doing the right thing.
Second, every single police officer in the days following the shooting have reported for duty. They are ready for duty. They are proud of their department. They are working together.
Number three, yesterday there was this anonymous threat against the department. It was on lockdown most of the afternoon and again this morning. The police officers, the police chief and many people in the police department are under increased threats from people in the community who still harbor a bit of hatred.
This morning, our major African-American churches, there is a live discussion going on. Commissioner Kelly spoke about how all communities need to have a discussion, an open discussion. Our mayor, one of our leading state senators from the area, is directly at an African-American church having a live discussion with the African-American community about the resolve of this community for their lives not only to be important and to matter, but the responsibilities that come with that. We need a police department.
Fourth, I think it's plain to say that there were lessons that were learned from this effort and some which we will be able to effectively manage and some which is going to require the public. Jim Kallstrom, deputy director of the FBI, will tell you most importantly, you have to have the public that understands why it is important to have safety. And officers are there to protect citizens.
SESSIONS: But officers are there with a duty, and I think that's the fourth lesson that we're going to have to listen to and we've got to be good at it.
BARTIROMO: And, Congressman, that communication becomes that much tougher during times of mourning, as we send you our condolences as well this morning.
SESSIONS: Yes, ma'am.
BARTIROMO: What can be done on a practical level in terms of that communication? What are the messages you'd like to get across to the people?
SESSIONS: Well, the messages first that I would like to get across is that as we look at these issues as they have taken place around the country, there is not necessarily one single factor. Yes, I'm aware that there was a weapon that was used, but if you look at Chicago, which is the gunshot capital of the nation, they already have strong gun control laws. What is similar in these circumstances, it perhaps is a weapon, but it's the underlying feelings of people and the population that we need to talk about.
What about Chicago? Chicago is home to a thriving $3 billion drug trade. These are gang wars at each other.
SESSIONS: We see circumstances that happen in other places, whether Louisiana, Houston or Dallas, and it is people who are trying to, I believe, do the right thing and run into trouble.
Our law enforcement must be effective. They are there to protect law- abiding citizens. But we've got to have people understand that police need better training. You heard Commissioner Kelly say this -- better urban- like training.
SESSIONS: We do not have those facilities today, military-grade Kevlar helmets and vests. Many departments do not have this. They have Kevlar, not military grade, the next generation.
SESSIONS: Our police officers in Dallas, Texas, had to march down the center of the road to draw fire to see where this shooter was coming from.
But they need the resources as well as ammunition and guns that can fight in an urban setting against these kinds of circumstances.
BARTIROMO: Yes. It's a really important point. So, we don't know anything else about a larger attack than the assault carried out in Dallas that he is suggesting.
SESSIONS: Well, we don't.
SESSIONS: We don't. But what we do know is that he had a number of plans, evidently, under way, including a bomb-making, literally, factory in his own home, books that were teaching him how to do it, as well as all of the supplies that were handy.
So, I don't think he thought he was going to get away from this. He was willing to fight. But the bottom line is it could have been much worse.
BARTIROMO: That's true. Yeah. Congressman, thank you very much.
SESSIONS: Yes, ma'am.
BARTIROMO: We appreciate it, Congressman Pete Sessions.
A top law enforcement group is calling for the feds to investigate the Dallas shooting as a hate crime. We'll talk about that and whether it's a real possibility as we look ahead on "Sunday Morning Futures." Stay with us.
BARTIROMO: Welcome back.
A top law enforcement group, the Fraternal Order of Police, is asking the Justice Department to investigate the killings of five Dallas police officers as a hate crime, but there could be a hurdle, because the Justice Department's definition of a hate crime does not include acts against the police. Just before Micah Johnson was killed by police, he told them he, quote, "wanted to kill white people," especially white officers.
Joining me right now is Bill Johnson. He's the executive director of the National Association of Police Organizations. Also joining the conversation by phone is Sheriff David Clarke of the Milwaukee County Sheriffs Police Office.
Thank you so much, gentlemen, for joining us.
SHERIFF DAVID CLARKE, MILWAUKEE COUNTY, WI (via telephone): My pleasure.
BILL JOHNSON, NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF POLICE ORGANIZATIONS: Thank you.
BARTIROMO: Bill Johnson, let me get your take first off in terms of identifying this as a hate crime.
JOHNSON: Well, certainly there's a lot of hatred evidence against the officers themselves. I think the attacks that we're seeing upon police all across this country is a hatred of police in general, regardless of the color of their skin. The happenstance, the murders in Dallas, the man who committed the murders has already been dispatched to meet his maker and to be judged, so I think it may be late, unfortunately, there.
But I do think that the Department of Justice and the president has to affirmatively act to protect police going forward, and we've been incredibly disappointed all across this country -- officers are disappointed -- in the lack of leadership, the lack of public support, the lack of equipment, the lack of trust that the president and the attorney general have evinced in their treatment of police.
BARTIROMO: Because the president's words are strong words, and that sets the tone for the entire country.
Sheriff Clarke, do you agree with that? What are you seeing from your standpoint?
CLARKE: Here's what I see. I think there's an elephant in the room that too many people want to talk around. It's where we go when we're dealing with these deadly encounters between young, black males and police.
And I think it's a good time to transition back to what the real problem is and just ask yourself, what leads to so many instances of interactions between young, black males and police in urban centers? It's crime. Who are police after? Criminals.
Ask yourself, who is overrepresented in involvement in violent crime? Young, black males. Now, that may be an ugly truth, but it's still the truth. But too many people want to focus on changing police tactics and police behavior, something that I believe works, by the way.
Nobody wants to talk about the flawed lifestyle choices and behavior of too many young, black males, things like gang and drug involvement and weapons violations. Those things are going to increase the risk of a deadly encounter. But no one wants to ask, where are the dads, where are the fathers? Instead, we go after the low-hanging fruit. Too many people want to attack the police.
So, if people want to look at this thing -- and the police issue might be part of it, but it's a small part of it -- everyone wants to dismiss or ignore that elephant in the room, these pathologies in these urban centers.
BARTIROMO: Right. And, Bill Johnson, we heard from the president earlier this week from Warsaw, and he's headed to Dallas this upcoming week. You say you're disappointed in what the president has done in terms of setting the tone and bringing us together. What do you want to see from him?
JOHNSON: Yes, the president has called for a truthful discussion, a frank discussion. And yet, he perpetuates this myth, this lie, that these protests are peaceful. The attorney general keeps referring to the protesters in Dallas as peaceful protesters.
Yet, everywhere these groups go, attacks and shootings and murders of police officers follow in their wake, whether it was Ferguson, Missouri, New York City, Baltimore, Maryland, and now Dallas. At some point, if we want to have an honest conversation, you have to realize that these are not peaceful protests, they never were. They march around calling for the murders of police officers.
And yet when it happens, everybody acts as if they're shocked. Like, how could this had happened?
Responsibility has to come from the very top. It has to come from the presidency. And to have groups like this protesting and saying that we want to tell you how you ought to run your local government or police department, but they can't even control their own rallies, it's insane.
The men and women are out there today, as congressman pointed out, they're still doing their jobs this morning. They get up and go to work. They're threatened, shot at all across the country, San Antonio, Dallas, Georgia, St. Louis, just in the last couple days, but they still do their jobs. And that's, I think, what has to be recognized.
BARTIROMO: So, what can the president say, Sheriff Clarke, from your standpoint, on the ground, in the thick of things, in the police force? What can this president say, do you believe, to underline Bill Johnson's point there?
CLARKE: He should say nothing. Every time he opens his mouth, he fans the flames of this antipolice sentiment that is sweeping the country in some of these urban centers. He reminds me of a pyromaniac who sets a fire, then calls 911 for the fire department and then returns to the scene to watch the fire department have to put out the fire.
Look, Dallas is on fire. Many of these cities, Chicago, Milwaukee, Louisiana. These cities are on fire. The president shows up. This is nothing but symbolic.
And I think the best thing he should do is just stop talking, let these things be handled at the local level. The media's going to do enough fanning of flames and creating drama. He doesn't need to add to it.
I am going to continue to fight and resist and push back against this anti- cop president's attempt to transform this profession of law enforcement. We don't need to be transformed. He knows nothing about it. He's never done this job.
Some of the things he recommends that police put into their training are just going to get officers hurt and killed as well as citizens.
So, right now, you know, with what he's done with this thing to set this whole country on fire with his race politics, he should just leave it alone.
BARTIROMO: Bill Johnson, do you agree with that?
JOHNSON: I do. I think that a lot of the recommendations coming from the administration, and particularly the disarming of police, taking away defensive gear like bullet-proof vests and helmets and bullet-proof cars, and at the same time, appeasing very violent movements, it's appeasement, it's disarmament. He's become the Neville Chamberlain of this war on cops.
BARTIROMO: Wow. Bill Johnson, Sheriff Clarke, thanks very much, gentlemen. We appreciate your time had I morning.
CLARKE: All lives matter.
BARTIROMO: We will be watching.
The FBI director facing a wave of criticism, meanwhile, during a House committee hearing after the agency closes its investigation of Hillary Clinton's e-mail. But she might not be in the clear just yet, as we look ahead this morning. We're focused there next on "Sunday Morning Futures."
BARTIROMO: Welcome back.
The State Department is picking up the ball in the Hillary Clinton e-mail investigation. It has announced it will reopen an internal review of her handling of classified material when she was secretary of state. This coming, of course, as FBI Director James Comey appeared in front of a congressional committee this past week and defended his decision not to criminally charge Clinton.
Joining me right now is James Kallstrom, former assistant director of the FBI.
And, Jim, it is always a pleasure to have you on the program.
JAMES KALLSTROM, FORMER FBI ASSISTANT DIRECTOR: Nice to be here.
BARTIROMO: Thank you so much for joining us.
What's your take? First off, on this breakdown of rule of law that we're seeing. I know this is bothersome to you as well.
KALLSTROM: Maria, I'm so worried about our country and our democracy. I mean, lying now is just rampant. No one seems to really care. A poll of Democrat voters said even if she was indicted, they would still vote for her, a majority of people.
You know, whatever happened about duty? John Kennedy saying, "Don't ask what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." That's dead and buried, you know. I just feel bad for people that are growing up in this country, because it's so vastly different than it was when I was young.
BARTIROMO: I've got to go through the Jim Comey testimony with you for a moment. First of all, I was very taken aback that the interview that was done of Hillary Clinton with the FBI was not recorded and it was not under oath.
You were there at the FBI for so long. Is this customary not to record a conversation with a major subject, not to put them under oath?
KALLSTROM: I haven't been there for a while, but I was taken aback by that. And I was also taken aback by the fact that he acted like he hadn't even spoken to the agents that were there. I forget his exact words, but it was sort of lackadaisical as to what that even meant.
BARTIROMO: Yes, he said he didn't do the interview, other agents did, and he has notes.
KALLSTROM: Yes. I mean, why she wouldn't have been asked -- I think it's important for the public to know, what was she asked and what were her answers?
KALLSTROM: Did she take the Fifth Amendment 35 times? Did she refuse to answer? Did she not have a recollection of the facts?
KALLSTROM: You know, that's all important stuff. This woman's running for president of the United States.
KALLSTROM: This is the same woman that I believe from reports was fired from the Watergate Commission for lying and who went to the Andrews Air Force Base and lied to the parents with the caskets 20 feet away.
BARTIROMO: Well, this is a really important point, because Jim Comey was asked, did he see the congressional testimony, where she said to congress, I never sent or received any classified information and I gave the state department all of my e-mails, which we then learned there were 30,000 e- mails that were destroyed. So, she I think lied to Congress. And he said, no, I didn't see that testimony.
KALLSTROM: Well, I would have thought all of that would have been incorporated into this investigation, her prior testimony and prior statements. Of course, those are critically important. How can you do an investigation and not look at those things?
And what about the Clinton Foundation? I mean, what's going on with that? He says I can't talk about that. He needs to talk about that before the election. People need to know, is that under investigation? You know, on paper, that looks like a huge, huge criminal conspiracy to me.
BARTIROMO: We know that she was talking to the Russians when she was secretary of state and approved a deal for U.S. uranium, a huge amount of uranium to go to the Russians, and then Russia gave money to the Clinton Foundation. I mean, this is all in Peter Schweizer 's "Clinton Cash" book.
KALLSTROM: And the five people on the board of the company that received it, you know, donated about $2,500,000 each to the foundation. So, it just never, never ends.
And as far as intent, when you set up a separate -- I mean, here's a woman who's been around the government a long, long time. When you set up a server that's for the express purpose of not complying with the Freedom of Information Act, the official records act, what more intent do you need? And you tell people to take off security notifications on top of documents. What further intent do you need?
BARTIROMO: I'm glad you brought up intent, because I want to play for you what Rudy Giuliani said to me this past week. But it's interesting, because when you look at the situation, what was your intention of having a private server? It was to keep your communication private. That's your intent.
KALLSTROM: And the president says it's the most sophisticated, the best lady that could ever be recommended for this office. And then she wants to, when someone says --
BARTIROMO: Scrub it.
KALLSTROM: Scrub it, she says what do you mean, with a cloth? This whole playing dumb like she didn't understand this stuff.
BARTIROMO: It was so disingenuous. Here's Mayor Giuliani. He also raised the issue of intent last week on Fox Business.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER NEW YORK CITY MAYOR: The director of the FBI made a really wrong decision, completely incorrect, and gave people a completely wrong impression of how you prove intent and then ignored the true statutes that don't require intent and gave no explanation of why there would be no indictment under those statutes. In fact, he laid out all the facts that would require an indictment. He said she was extremely careless. Well, the statute requires gross negligence, gross negligence and extremely careless are the same thing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BARTIROMO: Bottom line, do you think there is room here for a possible perjury probe that should be started for Hillary Clinton, and what about the foundation? Do you think we will find out anything and get any details of this investigation before the election?
KALLSTROM: I think without question that should be looked at, you know. And that should be done expeditiously. We need to know that.
You know, were her comments -- you know, what difference does that make, if all that comment was in line with, you know, what the actual truth is?
And absolutely, the Clinton Foundation needs to be looked at. What kind of a foundation is this? It gives, what, 20 percent of its monies to charity? How does it even meet the requirements of a 501c3? And is the IRS looking at that? I doubt it.
BARTIROMO: Did politics get in the way of the FBI's work, do you think, as a longtime FBI man?
KALLSTROM: I just don't understand why Jim Comey felt he had to make that decision and take Justice Department off the hook. He should have presented the facts, sent the facts over to the attorney general and let her make the decision and then live politically with that decision.
BARTIROMO: Jim Kallstrom, thanks very much for joining us. We appreciate it.
KALLSTROM: Thank you.
BARTIROMO: James Kallstrom joining us here on set.
Attorney General Loretta Lynch getting ready to testify on Capitol Hill this Tuesday about the Clinton e-mail investigation. A member of the House committee that will question her will join me next.
Darrell Issa on deck as we look ahead on "Sunday Morning Futures."
BARTIROMO: Welcome back.
Attorney General Loretta Lynch set to testify before Congress this Tuesday. The nation's top law enforcement officer taking her turn in the hot seat to answer questions about the Hillary Clinton e-mail investigation just days after a House committee grilled FBI Director James Comey.
Let's talk about it now with California Congressman Darrell Issa, who is also a member of the House Judiciary Committee.
Congressman, thanks very much for joining us this morning.
REP. DARRELL ISSA, R-CALIF.: Thanks, Maria. And thanks for covering sort of this evolving story of Hillary Clinton and her various unlawful acts.
BARTIROMO: What are you expecting to hear from Loretta Lynch on Tuesday? What are you expecting to question her about?
ISSA: Well, I think she's going to fall back on her earlier statement that she's simply going to take the career professionals' recommendations, even though, as you said in the earlier segment, the FBI director ignored the fact that she lied before Congress. A congressional referral is not required if you observe a crime, and it's a crime to lie to Congress.
So, absolutely, it's an open-and-shut case. He's already made a determination that she said things or that she, in fact, transmitted marked, highly classified materials repeatedly. I don't think he really thinks she's so unsophisticated as to not know better.
So, he has a case right there but ignored even mentioning it or in any positive way sending it. And I think Loretta lynch will do the same. To be honest, and I don't want to predict what's going to happen before our committee overly, but my assumption is that this whitewash will continue, and it will include the attorney general, who obviously met with the president's -- or met with the former president in an inappropriate way and had a private conversation that we'll never know part of.
But this is the nature of this administration, and Hillary Clinton in a way is simply part of a very hidden administration that gets away with doing what it wants to do.
BARTIROMO: So, you think politics got in the way for James Comey, when he testified?
ISSA: I think he blinked. Maria, I think he blinked. I think he could have done exactly what was said earlier. He could have presented the facts as he presented them in that initial interview, and skipped anything beyond that. You know, the FBI is not how you get to a criminal prosecution. The Department of Justice regularly with other agencies and on their own evaluate facts and present to grand juries.
The fact is, if he said these are the facts as I found them and then sent it over to the Department of Justice, let those U.S. attorneys say we cannot prosecute it because no jury will convict or no jury will convict her because at least one Democrat will always vote no. That may be the case, what we call jury nullification.
But the reality is, she knowingly with aforethought, planning, circumvented the law, and it led to by her own statement at least 300 people sending and receiving classified documents. And yet, the FBI director and I suspect Loretta Lynch, are going to have us believe that none of those 300 people should be held accountable for what is a violation of the law, one that regularly leads to people's firing and criminal prosecution.
BARTIROMO: And, of course, this just a couple of days after President Clinton went on Loretta Lynch's plane, the sitting attorney general. They spoke for 30 minutes. We understand they were alone. Have you ever seen someone in such a high position, the attorney general, have such a meeting without staff in the room taking notes?
ISSA: No. I've had a lot of meetings with a lot of people for a lot of years in government at these levels. There are always notetakers. I repeat, always notetakers. In WikiLeaks, some of the things that were said when I traveled overseas and met with foreign leaders became public. The reason is there is always a notetaker.
ISSA: You just don't have these. And by the way, you shouldn't have them. This kind of conversation with a civilian -- he's the ex-president, but he's a civilian -- is the kind of thing that shouldn't happen.
BARTIROMO: Congressman, someone said to me a week ago, well, look, James Comey did not want to play god. We have a major presidential election. He didn't want to be in a spot where he's going to be deciding. He doesn't want to play god. I guess he just did.
ISSA: Well, he did and he didn't. And I'm going to back off a little bit on the FBI director. He presented to the American public her guilt and then made this assumption that she couldn't be prosecuted.
But the American people on November 8th are going to evaluate what they now know. They know that she did set up the server, she did transmit and receive vast amounts of classified materials, and they should have been classified at the time. In some cases, the classifications were removed. At least 100 times to approximately 300 people, she was involved in sending and receiving documents that did say classified on them at various levels.
ISSA: And then she lied about it. That's for the American voter to decide. I actually have faith that the American voter in a sober moment when they decide somebody that will do this, apparently for her convenience and privacy, can they be trusted when, in fact, they're going to be controlling our men and women in uniform? They're in harm's way. These kinds of things absolutely get people killed.
Well, we've got the convention next week. We'll see if the Republicans get behind Donald Trump. Are you behind Donald Trump?
ISSA: You know, I'm behind the nominee of the party.
ISSA: And I'm behind -- and, Maria, here's what I hope people will focus on. The nominee of the party, if elected, will have about 24 key cabinet officers, including a vice president, who will be leading government. If you look at the likely people that would lead government in a Trump administration, I think what you see is a lot of people who want to make America safe again.
ISSA: Who believe America is great and wanted to recognize that once again.
BARTIROMO: Congressman, thanks so much for joining us this morning.
ISSA: Thank you, Maria.
BARTIROMO: Congressman Darrell Issa there.
President Obama's trip overseas interrupted by tragedy here at home as he prepares to visit Dallas. Our panel is next as we look ahead to the convention next week.
"Sunday Morning Futures" continues.
BARTIROMO: Welcome back.
President Obama cutting his European trip short as he plans to visit Dallas this upcoming week, with the country reeling from the deadly ambush on police officers.
We want to look at his upcoming visit with our panel, Ed Rollins, is former principal White House adviser to President Reagan, chief strategist for a pro-Trump super PAC, and he is a Fox News political analyst. Richard Fowler is with us this morning, Democratic strategist and radio talk show host, and Gerry Baker with us, "The Wall Street Journal's" managing editor.
Gentlemen, good to see you.
ED ROLLINS, FOX NEWS POLITICAL ANALYST: Good morning.
BARTIROMO: What are your expectations for President Obama going to Dallas? Ed?
ROLLINS: I think it's a very important trip for him. I think it's a very important trip for the country. I think he basically has to have a very high level tone.
This was murder in the streets. The police are so very important to us to keep law and order. And I think to a certain extent, the president needs to stand behind the police.
GERRY BAKER, THE WALL STREET JOURNAL MANAGING EDITOR: Well, Maria, you heard from previous guests, the anger, actually, an the bitterness and the real concern that there is among many police chiefs, among many police officers around the country and they really do think that the president has not done enough to really calm the environment that's created the tragedy that happened and the massacre actually that happened in Dallas on Thursday night.
And they really want to see -- they want to hear stronger words of condemnation and not this sort of on the one hand, on the other hand approach that the president has taken to so many of these issues.
BARTIROMO: Which was articulated in an op-ed in the journal yesterday. This is about leadership.
BAKER: It is about leadership. Look, of course, the president is right. There are terrible injustices in this country and terrible things happening in this country. But at times like when you have an incident like Dallas --
BAKER: -- it's not right -- I think leadership requires a clarity and I think what -- I'm afraid what we've not seen from the president on so many issues actually, whether it's terrorism, whether it's this issue of race relationship I don't think -- I don't think enough Americans are hearing clarity from the president, moral clarity on where the country is and what it needs.
BARTIROMO: Can he do it, Richard?
RICHARD FOWLER, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: I mean, he's going to have to do it. There's no way around it, Maria. But I think the president has a really, really tough needle to thread here because one, he does have to speak to the people who support the police and police departments across the country. But at the same time, he has to speak to the African-American community and other Americans who believe that we are at a tipping point in this country, right? You saw it with tweets like from former Congressman Joe Walsh who said outlandish things.
But we're at a tipping point. So, this president has to string this needle very effectively to make sure he's speaking to both groups and that's hard to do.
BARTIROMO: We heard from both campaigns, Hillary Clinton as well as Donald Trump. We're going into the week before the convention, the Republican convention.
Let's talk about these conventions. What are you expecting, Ed Rollins?
ROLLINS: A big urban city, Cleveland, obviously with an overwhelming majority of African-Americans, it's going to be very, very important that the peace, the outside community is going to be as judged what goes on, at the convention. I've been doing this for 50 years, this is the least prepared convention and I know less about it than anybody.
We don't know the keynote speaker is, we don't know the vice presidential candidate, we don't know what Trump's going to say. He has to basically take this as a real opportunity to gain some momentum. And if he doesn't, the Democrats come back the following week and they will basically have a jump on him and be hard to catch.
BARTIROMO: Trump is going to release the list of speakers this week. We're probably also going to hear who the vice presidential pick is, isn't that right, Gerry?
BAKER: We should. I mean, typically, the presidential nominee announces towards the end of this week, just ahead of the conventions, to try to get as much publicity for the vice presidential nominee as he or she can. So, we would expect that this week. Of course, as Ed says, nothing about this convention or this presidential nominee, Donald Trump is conventional, as it were. So, who knows what we'll see?
BARTIROMO: Who do you think is the V.P.?
ROLLINS: I'm beginning to think it's Gingrich at this point in time.
BARTIROMO: Newt Gingrich?
ROLLINS: I think it would be very helpful, because Trump needs someone who really understands the substance of government and what a president does every day and what a Congress does every day. He certainly could have that. He's a peer. I think to a certain extent he'd be positive.
BARTIROMO: Who do you think Hillary's V.P. is, Richard?
FOWLER: That's a tough one. I think it's a race between a Tim Kaine and maybe a Tim Kaine and a Ryan out of Ohio. I think people are underestimating Congressman Tim Ryan. But I think he does everything that Hillary Clinton needs him to do. He appeals to working class, blue collar folks and also sort of -- he's not too much power at the bottom of the ticket.
She can't have anybody too much power at the bottom of the ticket, because, you know, she admits herself, she's not -- you know, she's not -- she's not her husband.
ROLLINS: She's not the president, in the campaigning sense.
BARTIROMO: Your thoughts, Gerry, on these conventions? What should we be looking for?
BAKER: Well, so again, on the vice presidential pick, the rule is that generally speaking we, the media gets very excited about the vice presidential pick. What they can do is they can do harm.
BARTIROMO: People don't vote for the V.P.
BAKER: They don't. What they can do -- they rarely give an advantage. Maybe Johnson helped win Texas for Kennedy in 1960. But they rarely bring the kind of advantage that people think.
But what they can do, the wrong pick can do harm. So, they've got to be careful. I think Trump needs someone reassuring. I think Newt Gingrich reassures conservatives. I don't think he reassures many of those voters not the middle ground who may have doubts.
So, I think a general -- a former general, a military figure might do that for Trump.
For Hillary, I agree with Richard. It's either Tim Kaine or I think actually Sherrod Brown is still a possibility.
BARTIROMO: Oh, wow.
All right. Great panel. Thank you so much, gentlemen. Have a great Sunday.
That will do it for "Sunday Morning Futures."
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