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Fox News Sunday

Rev. Jesse Jackson and DHS Secretary Jeh Johnson react to Dallas shooting

This is a rush transcript from "Fox News Sunday," July 10, 2016. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

SHANNON BREAM, FOX NEWS HOST:  I’m Shannon Bream, in for Chris Wallace.  Three shootings in three days highlight tensions between law enforcement and race.  Now the country looks for a way forward.  

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES:  This is not who we want to be as Americans.  

LORETTA LYNCH, ATTORNEY GENERAL:  Do not let this week precipitate a new normal in this country.  

PROTESTERS:  Hands up!  Don't shoot!  

BREAM:  Protests in cities across the country as two incidents involving black men shot and killed by police.  

Then --

DISPATCHER:  Please be advised, suspect is wearing body armor.

BREAM:  A sniper takes deadly aim at law enforcement in Dallas.  

CHIEF DAVID BROWN, DALLAS POLICE DEPARTMENT:  He expressed killing white officers.  He expressed anger for Black Lives Matter.  

BREAM:  We will ask former Philadelphia Police Commissioner Charles Ramsey about the relationship between police and minority communities, discuss the president's response with Homeland Security Secretary Jeh Johnson and New York City Police Commissioner Bill Bratton, and then talk to the Reverend Jesse Jackson about the racial divide in America.  

Then --

HILLARY CLINTON, D-PRESUMPTIVE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE:  There is too much violence, too much hate.  

DONALD TRUMP, R-PRESUMPTIVE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE:  A brutal attack on our police force is an attack on our country.  

BREAM:  The presidential candidates respond.  We'll speak to key supporters on both sides about the impact on 2016.  

Plus, we'll ask our Sunday panel about the Clinton e-mail fallout.  

All, right now, on "Fox News Sunday."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BREAM:  And hello, again, from Fox News in Washington.  

A weekend of protests across the country as tensions remain high following the shooting ambush that killed five police officers in Dallas, in the aftermath of the police-involved shootings of two black men in Louisiana and Minnesota.  Overnight in St. Paul, officers used smoke bombs to clear crowds blocking a section of I-94, protesting the death of Philando Castile.  And in Baton Rouge, 30 arrests during demonstrations over the shooting of Alton Sterling, including Black Lives Matter activist DeRay McKesson.

And the president overseas on his first visit to Spain, he will return early to Washington in response to the crisis.  This hour, we will speak with prominent law enforcement and civil rights leaders about how the country can heal.

But we begin with William La Jeunesse live in Dallas with the latest from there -- William.

WILLIAM LA JEUNESSE, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT:  Well, Shannon, let me show you some video that illustrates just how often edge police are here and around the country.  Last night around 6:00 p.m., police received information that a man had breached a secure police parking garage.  DPD responded with two SWAT teams, a helicopter, snipers, they locked down headquarters and cleared several blocks although the search of that structure came up empty.  

Also last night, shots were fired at police headquarters in San Antonio.  In St. Louis on Friday, Georgia and Tennessee, African-Americans allegedly fired at officers in the retaliation they said for those controversial shootings in Minnesota and Baton Rouge.  

As for the investigation here, police believe 25-year-old Micah Johnson acted alone, formerly with the Army Reserve, he was discharged last year after a complaint of sexual harassment.  In the search of his home, police found a ballistic vest, rifles, ammunition and a manual on combat tactics which he did use here.  

And while not affiliated with any organization he did attend meetings of the new Black Panther Party which experts say is a racist hate group.  

Also here, police are defending their innovative use of a robot to kill Johnson, blowing him up with a pound of C-4 explosives.  

Now, a candlelight memorial is planned for tomorrow night at city hall.  Two officers were released yesterday from the hospital.

Officer Misty McBride remains hospitalized, but she will recover -- Shannon.  

BREAM:  William La Jeunesse in Dallas -- William, thank you.  

Joining me now, Charles Ramsey, former police commissioner in Philadelphia.  

Mr. Ramsey, welcome back to "Fox News Sunday."

CHARLES RAMSEY, FORMER PHILLY POLICE COMMISSIONER:  Thank you.  

BREAM:  Following the shooting death of Michael Brown in Ferguson, you were named to co-chair the president's Task Force on 21st Century Policing.  Have we made progress in the interim?  

RAMSEY:  Yes, I think we've made a lot of progress.  First of all, we did publish a report, we presented it to the president, he accepted it and the report was published and we have close to 60 recommendations on an almost 90 action steps.  It is a solid roadmap toward creating the kind of change we need in policing in order to bridge the gap that currently exists.  

BREAM:  Do you see that closing or do you feel that we're more divided than ever right now?  

RAMSEY:  Well, certainly there is a gap.  There is no question about that.  Whether or not it's more or less remains to be seen.

But this is all fixable.  But as long as we continue to listen to extremes on both sides and we don't engage in serious thoughtful discussion that really results in solutions to our problems so that there's not two sides to the issue -- there's only one and that is safe neighborhoods in which there's also a sense of justice and fairness for the people who reside in those neighborhoods, and for the police officers that work in those neighborhoods.  That's the goal.  And I think we're working toward it, but, unfortunately, we continue to have some issues arise.  

BREAM:  In reacting to the shooting deaths of those five officers in Dallas, the president had this to say on his travels in Poland.  

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA:  Part of what's creating tensions between communities and the police is the fact that police have a really difficult time in communities where they know guns are everywhere.  So, if you care about the safety of our police officers, then you can't set aside the gun issue and pretend that that's irrelevant.  

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BREAM:  And that issue is one that continues to percolate here in Washington, on Capitol Hill, across the country.  I know that you have been heavily involved in Chicago.  You've been most recently an adviser both formally and informally to the police department there.  You also know it's a city with some of the toughest gun laws in the country, yet there are nearly 2,100 people who have been shot already this year, more than 300 of them have died.  

Are more gun control laws the answer, will they solve these problems?  

RAMSEY:  Well, listen, this is a complicated issue and there's no one thing that's going to be the magic bullet to fix the problem.  We need to be able to take a comprehensive look at what's going on in our communities.  We need a comprehensive look at the entire criminal justice system.  There hasn't been such a review of the entire system since 1965.  I mean, obviously things have changed.  

And we need to look at not only the criminal justice system but need to look at these communities where we have problems with crime and violence and unfortunately a lot of gun crime.  So, yes, sensible gun laws can help but that by itself is not going to solve the problem.  We have to take a more comprehensive approach if we want to solve these problems.  

BREAM:  You recently retired as chief of police in Philadelphia.  Of course, the DNC will be there in a few weeks, I’m sure there have been preparations and planning months and years in advance of that.  

I want to read what the deputy police chief in Cleveland who is overseeing the RNC component had to stay after the shooting debts in Dallas.  He said, quote, "We have got to make some changes without a doubt."

How concerned are you about these two cities being targets for bad actors, whether it’s domestic actors or those would be inspired by a group like ISIS?  

RAMSEY:  Well, listen, hopefully, we don't have any problems at the RNC or at the DNC.

But obviously, right now, everyone is on edge.  I’m certain that departments across the country, not just those that are hosting these conventions are looking at all of their protocols, all of their procedures to make sure that our officers remain safe, to make sure that the citizens that we protect can remain safe.  

This is a very volatile time right now and we have to be very cautious, very careful, take whatever precautions we need to be able to take.

But I also think that we don't need to exaggerate the situation to a point where we just further alienate ourselves from the people that we serve.  There are always threats out there.  Police officers face those threats every single day.  I think it's a good move to take whatever added precautions you can take, but everyone is not out to harm police and I think we need to keep that in mind.  

BREAM:  Mr. Ramsey, thank you so much for joining us today.  

RAMSEY:  Thank you.  

BREAM:  Joining me now is New York City Police Commissioner Bill Bratton and Homeland Security Secretary Jeh Johnson.  

Gentlemen, welcome back to "Fox News Sunday."

JEH JOHNSON, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY:  Thanks, Shannon.  

BREAM:  Commissioner, given the events of this past week, I want to start by asking you how the men and women serving on the streets for the NYPD, what's the mood, how are they feeling?  

BILL BRATTON, NYPD COMMISSIONER:  Well, I think like the rest of America policing the rest of America hearts and prayers certainly go out to our colleagues in Dallas, all that they've dealt with and all that they're continuing to deal with.  We've been there in New York, we had two of our detectives murdered back in 2014, December 2014, and I remember the pain of that.  

So, what Dallas is dealing with is, you know, almost, you know -- almost impossible to imagine, except it happened.  We don't have to imagine, it happened.  

BREAM:  And now the investigation to learn more about the shooter continues.  

Mr. Secretary, you had said that Micah Johnson didn't appear to be aligned with any particular group.  It appears that his Facebook page may have had likes for certain groups.  There has been a conversation that he had some link to a Black Panthers group in Houston briefly.  That did not end well.  

Can you tell us anything more about his motivations or what you've learned?  

JOHNSON: Well, the investigation is ongoing.  It's still relatively early.  Everything we know about this individual is being investigated, uncovered and I suspect we are going to know a lot more in a couple of days.  

It does appear that he was a single shooter, the lone shooter.  We do not see any affiliation with any international terrorist organization like ISIL or al Qaeda, but the investigation does continue.  

We do know what he told the hostage negotiator just before he was killed, that he wanted to kill white people.  That he especially wanted to kill white police officers.  I think that's almost a quote coming from Chief Brown.  We're going to know a lot more about this individual in the coming days.  

The other thing I’d like to say, Shannon, is within federal law enforcement, I have literally tens of thousands of law enforcement officers working for us in the department of homeland security and at a time like this we all stand together, we all mourn, we all grieve for these five fallen heroes in Dallas, just as we do every time a law enforcement officer is killed in the line of duty, whether at the local level or the federal level.  

BREAM:  And certainly there can be great unity in that time in that grief and in those connections.  

Commissioner, there's clearly a lot of pain, there is a divide.  That's just the practicalities, the realities of what we're dealing with.  So, what is the best way or ways that you are endeavoring and that you recommend law enforcement to endeavor to close this gap between law enforcement officers and minority groups who feel, you know, mistreated, misunderstood?  They don't trust officers.  In fact, they often view them as the enemy.  

BRATTON:  Well, going back to the experience of December 2014, that murder of two of my detectives, in terms of bridging the gap, trying to close the gap, we've been doing a lot of work in New York over these past two years on training of officers, de-escalation techniques, hundreds upon hundreds of meetings with community leaders and community groups.  The idea of seeing each other, the idea of hearing each other, not talking past each other and with just rhetoric but actually meaningful conversation.  

There is a place for demonstrations certainly but there's also much more of a need for dialogue, collaboration.  

I applaud the NAACP here in New York, for example, which has been holding a series of community meetings.  I applaud the efforts of the head of my Guardian's association, black cops association, Detective Yuseff Hamm, who is calling his members together for dialogue and they are going to go out to the community as black officers and as blacks.  We have that dual burden, if you will, in today's society.  

We can close it.  I think we've had in New York a relatively quiet period of time since those murders, not without controversy of certain incidents but we can close it.  We must close it.  And we close it by collaboration, by seeing this as a shared responsibility, not us against them, police against community.  

In a democracy, police are the community.  They come from the community.  In New York City, the majority of my officers live in this city and I have significant minority representation.  We now have a minority/majority police department in this minority/majority city.  

BREAM:  As you said, listening to each other not talking past each other, especially at a time like this.  Critical and I think that's something people across the board can agree on.

Mr. Commissioner Bratton, Mr. Secretary, we thank you both.  

JOHNSON:  Thank you.  

BRATTON:  Thank you.  

BREAM:  Up next, the Reverend Jesse Jackson joins us to discuss the racial divide and the president's response.  We'll bring in our Sunday group to discuss the aftermath.  

Plus, what would you like to ask the panel about how to heal the divide between minority communities and law enforcement?  Just go to Facebook or Twitter, @FoxNewsSunday.  We may use your question on the air.  

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIPS)

OBAMA:  When people are armed with powerful weapons, unfortunately, it makes attacks like these more deadly and more tragic.  

DR. BEN CARSON, R-FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  Now is definitely not the time to get political.  Now is the time to use logic and ask ourselves why do we have a Constitution?  Why do we have a Second Amendment?  

(END VIDEO CLIPS)

BREAM:  Dr. Ben Carson, a Donald Trump surrogate, calling out President Obama on his renewed push for gun control in the aftermath of the ambush in Dallas.  

Joining me now from Chicago, the founder and president of the Rainbow PUSH Coalition, Reverend Jesse Jackson.  

Reverend, welcome to "Fox News Sunday."

REV. JESSE JACKSON, PRESIDENT, RAINBOW PUSH COALITION:  Good to talk with you today.  There's lots of pain in the country.  I’ve been in touch the last few days with people in Minnesota, the woman who witnessed the killing of her boyfriend and the family in Baton Rouge and in Texas, we offer condolences to them and we hope we will choose reconciliation over retaliation and revenge.  

BREAM:  Reverend, are you confident in having talked with those people and some of the officials as well that the investigations as they've been announced are going to be thorough and transparent and give us some answers?  

JACKSON:  Well, immediately, the governors in Louisiana and in Minnesota moved quickly, they engaged the department of justice and the FBI.  That has not been in case, there is such a backlog of these killings of blacks without any consequences.  Rodney King was beaten and was on camera and the full police walked away.  The other shot in New York in the back by police, they walked away.  Trayvon Martin, the killer walked away.  Michael Brown in Ferguson, the killer walked away.

There is a backlog of pain and somehow we must look at the issue of violence on the one hand, which is almost a diversion to the issue of poverty and racial disparities.  We must not just focus on the police, but on the issue of poverty and racial spread, and figure out in this very tough season here, how to choose reconciliation over retaliation and revenge.  

BREAM:  Reverend, you mentioned several high profile cases there.  And, of course, we want to know the facts that in some of those cases, they were thoroughly investigated by federal and state authorities.  Some of those officers were cleared, other officers have been indicted are facing murder charges in current pending cases or have been convicted.  

So, there are investigations.  It's not as if those weren't investigated at all.  Some of them remained unresolved.  Others have been resolved.

JACKSON:  Well, here in Chicago, for example, in Laquan McDonald case, one man was indicted, seven, eight police saw it and filed false reports.  They’re still in the police department.  That's the kind of pattern.  That is a breakdown.  

I hope that there will be real conference now on racial disparities and violence and poverty because police are simply the gatekeepers.  Beneath the rule of police on the firing edge spreads the access to healthcare and housing and jobs.  That agenda gets lost arguing about good and bad police.  

We certainly hope that this killing and this violence will stop.  

BREAM:  You have said that you think Donald Trump at least in part has contributed to a very divisive mood in this country.  You called part of that an anti-black mood.  

I want to play a little bit of what he said in response to the shootings and events of last few days and then get your reaction.  

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP:  A brutal attack on our police force is an attack on our country and an attack on our families.  The deaths of Alton Sterling in Louisiana and Philando Castile in Minnesota also make clear how much more work we have to do to make every American feel that their safety is protected.  

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BREAM:  Reverend, what do you make of his remarks?  

JACKSON: Well, those significant remarks, but I submit to you that when you do the birther movement on the president, which is (INAUDIBLE) kind of anti-black, the anti-Mexican, the deportation of 15 million people, of families, the disruption, and anti-Muslim -- that kind of rhetoric has head (ph) to seed these clouds.

I hope Mr. Trump will maintain the level of rhetoric that we just now heard.  

BREAM:  The president yesterday, by the way, speaking in Poland said he doesn't think that the country is deeply as divided as some people do.  There are some on the right who say he could have done more as the first black president to further racial reconciliation.  

Here is a bit of what former House Speaker Newt Gingrich and possible Trump V.P. pick had to say.  

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NEWT GINGRICH, R-FORMER HOUSE SPEAKER:  We are in the eighth year of a president who could have brought us together.  A president who could have worked in the African-American community to make people feel better about themselves.  A president who could have offered visionary changes in the policies that have failed for the last 50 years and he didn't do any of that.  

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BREAM:  Reverend, has the president missed a golden opportunity on this issue?  

JACKSON:  Every time he has made the move even to have a reconciliation between Dr. Gates and the police in Boston, he has met great rejection.  Now they're saying he should have done more.  

The fact is in a city like Chicago, for example, unemployment in the black community is around 20 percent for adults, 35 percent for youth, they bail out the banks, public schools, there is a deep divide.  We need a plan for reconstruction and redevelopment and I hope that -- police are the gatekeepers but behind that gate are these problems of disparities and injustice.  

BREAM:  And in mentioning those, the president has been the president for almost eight years now.  These are happened under his administration, some of it is cumulative from previous administrations.  But with him being in the White House seven and a half years where do you point the finger for knows problems that you blame, unemployment and other issues?  

JACKSON:  Well, I’m not sure the finger-pointing -- for example, when he first came into office -- there have been a net gain of jobs every month since he has been president.  Twenty million have health insurance who did not have it before and millions more would have affordable healthcare if it were not being blocked, for example.  It would have helped black and white alike.  Fast rail was blocked by the Congress.

And so, I think we would do better if all of us were to see this as a humanity issue and not make it originally ideological.  I think all of us can do more and at this stage must do more because these are military style weapons on the streets.  This thing could get much uglier.  There is fear, police in fear, people if are in fear, children are fear, but fear and hate must not drive our agenda, love and hope and healing must drive the agenda.  

BREAM:  I agree with you on that point, but it's important to note as well that military style weapons if you're talking about machine guns are illegal for the most part and I think it's a distinction we need to make when we talk about that.  

JACKSON:  Yes, but in Texas, there's AK-47.  (INAUDIBLE)  They can bring that on airplanes.  

It is irrational to me to have military-style weapons that shot for that -- no defense against them.  When this guy who was trained in the military unleashes with his training these guns, he could not be stopped.  That could happen in front of a ball game or a church or a theater.  We must know that more guns make us less safe, not more safe and not more secure.  

BREAM:  Reverend, with all respect if reports are correct that that shooter in Texas was using an AR-15, it's not an automatic weapon, it couldn't bring down an airplane.  There is a discussion about guns to be had.

It sounds like this administration wants to continue having that.  

Reverend --  

JACKSON:  I submit if someone was sitting in an airport -- there are weapons in the streets that planes taking off or landing can be hit and can be taken down.  As we fight for weapons of mass destruction to be eliminated, we must eliminate them ourselves.  That’s very important, I think.

BREAM:  The conversation will continue.  

Reverend Jackson, we appreciate your time today, sir.  Thank you.  

JACKSON:  Thank you.  

BREAM:  And it is time now for our Sunday group, Fox News senior political analyst Brit Hume, Susan Page from "USA Today," GOP strategist Karl Rove, and Fox New political analyst Juan Williams.  

Welcome to you all.  

Juan, where are we right now?  Has things gotten better or are they getting worse?  

JUAN WILLIAMS, FOX NEWS POLITICAL ANALYST:  Well, obviously, I mean, I think, you know, the fact that I’m sitting here as part of this panel, you know, I don't think my dad would be here.  So we're talking, you know, over 50 years.  Depends where you want to judge it, Shannon.  

I think at the moment I just feel so sad.  I think the whole country is sort of grieving right now after Dallas, and especially after watching those two videos from Minnesota and Louisiana because the social media kind of takes you right into it and even in Dallas, the social media of watching the police have to deal and a man standing over a policeman and shooting repeatedly in that manner, that kind of hatred, it just -- it just shocks the system.

And it makes you think, gosh, you know, race in this country as you suggested by your question we are in a bad place.  So, the question is, how do you stop this cycle of violence and hate?  How do we get out of it?  

I think we've had some -- I just want to say from my perspective to hear Paul Ryan, the speaker of the House, say, do you know what, we can do better than this and we cannot just tap into the predictable script of saying hatred and pointing fingers, I thought that was so important.  

I thought it was so important for Newt Gingrich to come out and say so many white people don't understand the added risk that comes with being black and being stopped by police in this country.  

I was very appreciative to hear that and to move away even by Donald Trump from the idea, oh, I’m going to blame the other side and make this into a racial situation.  

BREAM:  And we asked folks to write in -- to be part of this discussion today.

On Twitter, Richard Hurd says, "Why are race relations in America at an all-time low after electing our first black president?  Seems they would be better."

Jay Wheeler asks, "Which candidate would of a better shot at healing the racial divide?"

And John Ferguson on Facebook says, "How do you get black males to trust police and vice versa?"  

Karl, where do we go from here?

KARL ROVE, FORMER BUSH WHITE HOUSE ADVISOR:  Well, I’m not certain.  But I know one place we shouldn’t go, and that is not turn this into a debate about gun control.  I was taken aback at G.K. Butterfield, the head of the Congressional Black Caucus, after Castile and Sterling lost their lives.  His immediate response was to say, "If we fail to act and have a full debate on gun control, this will be a long, hot summer."

Well, the only kind of gun control issue that was involved in the deaths of Sterling and Castile was the guns in the hands of the police.  And so, unless, the argument is we ought to disarm the police, this is not connected with gun control.  There's no gun measure that has been -- nobody is saying, let's take away everybody's gun.  There is no gun measure that's been proposed that would have kept these incidents from happening.  

I would say this, first of all, I agree with (AUDIO GAP) and particularly Paul Ryan.  And I also want to thank you for what you said.  I happened to catch what you said about -- which is something I think every American needs to understand -- you having to have a conversation with your two sons about what to have -- what to do if they came into contact with police officers.  

And I don't want to be overly critical of the president, but when he said it's very hard to untangle the motives of the shooter, I’ll leave that to psychologists and people who study these kinds of incidents.  It would have been far better for this dialogue that we need to have if he said, a man who declares his intention to kill white people, especially white police officers is a man engaged in evil.  And you cannot confront something unless you're willing to call it by its name.  

BREAM:  All right.  Unfortunately, we’re out of this panel.  But much more to discuss with the panel.  

So, we’ll take a quick break.  But when we come up -- coming back, we’re going to talk about the impact on the campaign trail of this whole conversation.  Hillary Clinton outlining what she would do to end the violence and the hate in the wake of these incidents all across this country.

Plus, as Clinton's V.P. choices narrow, we will talk to one possible pick about the challenges she faces heading into the general election.  

Stick around.  

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINTON: We do need police and criminal justice reforms to save lives and make sure all Americans are treated equally in rights and dignity.

TRUMP: We must stand in solidarity with law enforcement, which we must remember is the force between civilization and total chaos.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BREAM: Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump with measured tones in response to this week's tragic events. Both candidates canceling political events Friday as the shootings weigh on the campaign trail.

Joining me now, key advocates for both candidates, both mentioned as possible VP picks, the Labor secretary, Thomas Perez, representing Clinton, and Alabama Senator Jeff Sessions, a top Trump advisory.

We begin with Secretary Perez. He is here strictly as a Clinton surrogate, not in his official capacity.

Welcome to FOX NEWS SUNDAY.

THOMAS PEREZ, SECRETARY OF LABOR: Great to be here in my personal capacity, Shannon.

BREAM: OK, so let's talk about what a president Clinton, meaning a president Hillary Clinton --

PEREZ: Sure.

BREAM: Would do. How she would tackle these issues we're dealing with in mistrust in the community, this violence.

PEREZ: Yes.

BREAM: How do you go about that?

PEREZ: Well, I -- I've spent more than a decade at the Justice Department under Republican and Democratic administrations on these issues. And -- and Hillary Clinton, I think, has learned so many of the lessons that are critically important. Number one, the most important currency that a police officer has is the trust of the community. And -- and that -- if you don't have trust, then you can't police. And so everything she is doing is focused around making sure we don't ask the wrong questions. And the wrong question is this: whose side are you on? Are you on the police’s side or are you on the community's side? That's a false choice. We’re all in this together. Her entire campaign has been about the fact that when we marshal the collective power of we and come together as a community around the -- the -- the -- the reality that we have racial disparities in our criminal justice system and we also have very, very challenging times for police officers, the -- this is -- when we’re all in this together, we when marshal that trust, when we engage the community -- you had Chief Bratton on earlier today. I prosecuted an LAPD officer pre-Rodney King when I was working in the Bush one administration. That department had significant challenges. You fast forward now under Chief Bratton's leadership, the engagement of the community, the involvement of the Department of Justice, things change for the better.

So the good news here, I -- I understand the fear that so many people have and the mistrust and Secretary Clinton understands that when we bring people together, when we learn about how we can do things like, you know, de-escalation training, when we understand and not talk past each other but talk together with each other, I think you can build trust. I saw -- I saw it in Los Angeles firsthand. I saw it in Seattle, Washington. I worked a lot with the police department there. And Secretary Clinton understands that we can do this as long as we marshal the collective power of we and don't talk past each other and don't create these false choices.

BREAM: All right, let's talk about some campaign issues. Yesterday the formal announcement that Mrs. Clinton will pursue a public option for healthcare, some call it the government run option, it's a -- it’s a concept that she has been associated with, of course, in the past.

PEREZ: Sure.

BREAM: Senator Bernie Sanders issued a statement congratulating her on that. Well, conservatives, not as equally congratulatory on that. The group American Rising Squared reacted this way, quote, "desperate to win over the Warren-Sanders crew that deep distrusts her, Secretary Clinton is willing to adopt even the most extreme left-wing views as her own. There is quite literally nothing she won't do or say to fit in today's modern Democratic socialist party."

So, has the party -- has the primary pulled her so far left that she’s going to have trouble in the general election on issues like this?

PEREZ: I think Hillary Clinton’s going to do great in the general election for the simple reason that she’s been fighting for healthcare her entire adult life. As first lady, you know, she took on the healthcare industry to try to expand access to healthcare. When that didn’t succeed, she passed -- she helped get the children's health insurance program passed. So she wants to make sure that healthcare is a right, not a privilege, in this country and I think the -- the work that's been done under this president has brought us a tremendously far way but there's still unfinished business and what she's trying to do is continue that progress.

BREAM: OK, this week the conclusion of the FBI e-mail investigation, Director Comey saying that she and staffers were negligent and extremely careless, but he did not recommend criminal prosecution. Here’s reaction from House Oversight Committee Chair Republican Jason Chaffetz.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JASON CHAFFETZ, R-UTAH, CHAIR, OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE: I think there is a legitimate concern that there is a double standard. If your name isn't Clinton or you’re not part of the powerful elite, that lady justice will act differently.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BREAM: So how do you deal with the perception among some that Mrs. Clinton got away with something?

PEREZ: Well, you know, what was interesting about this is, when the investigation was underway, I heard Republicans praise Director Comey, who, as you know, was the number two person at DOJ under the administration of George W. Bush. And then when they reached their conclusion and it was the career folks there who were vigilant and independent, now they -- they have a different tune.

And that hearing was rather interesting this week because what it really illustrated was exactly what we know, which is there was no criminal wrongdoing on Secretary Clinton's part. She made a mistake. She's acknowledged that. And -- and now, you know, they're continuing to hold those hearings and -- and, frankly, those hearings really clarified what we know, which is that, again, there was no criminal wrongdoing and -- and she shouldn't have done that. And she acknowledged that it was a mistake to do this. And -- and she acknowledges that she has to earn the trust back of, you know, many people who are wondering.

And -- and the thing is, this is not the first time she has worked hard to earn trust. When she ran for governor of New York -- and I -- I grew up in upstate New York -- there were a lot of skeptics about Hillary Clinton.

BREAM: Senate.

PEREZ: When she ran for Senate in New York, I’m sorry.

BREAM: Senate, yes.

PEREZ: There were a lot of skeptics in New York. And she earned their trust and then she got reelected. And folks in places like upstate New York, where -- where I grew up, she won them over because she was a -- a workhorse, not a show horse. She worked with a lot of people in the Senate who she had been in an adversarial relationship with when she was first lady and she was able to work bipartisan, whether it was with Lindsey Graham or -- or John McCain on immigration. And then, obviously, with President Obama. A tough campaign and then she earned his trust as well. So she looks forward to earning the trust of the American people.

BREAM: Well, there are several contradictions and inconsistencies that came up between what she said and what the director, James Comey, said about the fact that there were classified e-mails that were found on her server, that she didn't turn over all of her work-related e-mails as she said, there -- that -- that these were marked at the time that she sent them, that she did use multiple devices during her time as secretary, which she had denied. What do you do with those inconsistencies?

PEREZ: Well, actually, the hearing, which was obviously a partisan hearing, I'm glad it took place because it cleared up a lot of those things. And let me just state one quick example of what you just said. The issue of whether she had documents that were in fact classified. During that hearing, Director Comey clarified that, in fact, there were -- there were -- there were three documents that had markings, but they didn't have the proper markings. And so he said it would be -- it was a -- it would be a reasonable inference for anyone to draw that those were not classified documents. So, actually, the -- the --

BREAM: He did also say that there was so much material that someone as sophisticated as a former senator, as a secretary of state, should have known better.

PEREZ: Well, actually -- I mean, Secretary Clinton does not deny the fact that she made a mistake, but she was getting materials from career officials at the Justice department, at the State Department, people who know what they're doing. And so she didn't second guess that. And -- and, again, the hearing clarified a lot of this. And so, you know, thanks to the Republicans for that.

The reality is, you know, we're -- we’re now in a campaign cycle and she understands that she has to, again, earn the trust of people. And, you know, I've seen Hillary Clinton up close and personal. The voters of New York saw her up close and personal. And I often judge a person by what they did when they weren't in the spotlight. And Hillary Clinton has spent her entire life breaking down barriers, whether it’s for people with disabilities, the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act is a product in part of work she did in her 20s. The work she has done to break down barriers in education, all of those things I think cast a really important light on who she is.

BREAM: I’ve got to as you know, though, as -- as somebody who sounds like a great advocate for her, could you be her VP pick?

PEREZ: Well, I'll leave that to other people. I'm -- I ‘m working on my day job right now and, Shannon, I love my day job. My day job is about making sure that we expand opportunity for everywhere, that we break down barriers. We've done a lot of work under this president. And I've been out on the stump for Secretary Clinton because I think she has a remarkable experience and temperament.

The -- as we've seen over the last few weeks, these are -- these are turbulent times and they call for someone who has a steady hand, who can bring people together. And -- and that's what she's done all her life. She understands that our --

BREAM: We’ve got --

PEREZ: That Mexico is an ally, not an adversary.

BREAM: We’ve got to leave it there.

PEREZ: OK.

BREAM: Thank you so much and we’ll see whether you’re a formal addition to the ticket out there on the campaign trail as well. Thank you so much for coming today on "Fox News Sunday."

PEREZ: Always a pleasure to be with you.

BREAM: Up next, Donald Trump has a tense meeting with Republicans on Capitol Hill and meets with former rival Ted Cruz. We’ll discuss it with a key Trump adviser, Senator Jeff Sessions, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BREAM: Welcome back. Joining me, Senator Jeff Sessions, a top Trump foreign policy adviser and possible running mate.

Senator, welcome back to "Fox News Sunday."

SEN. JEFF SESSIONS, R-ALABAMA: Thank you, Shannon. Good to be with you.

BREAM: I want to start by getting your reaction to the events of the last several days.

SESSIONS: Oh, it's just so horrible and so discouraging and so dispiriting. We have got great police officers all over the country, almost a million, and every day they are out there in dangerous situations. Sometimes they make mistakes. But I’ll tell you, there's nothing more need in this country than to make sure that our poorer neighborhoods, our neighborhoods where minority citizens have police protection and they -- they are able to walk on their streets and their children can play outside without fear and danger. So I think in all of this, we need to understand the true value of our police officer and the risks that they undertake.

BREAM: Every single day.

Let's talk politics now.

Donald Trump had a meeting with the GOP senators this week. Obviously you know all about that. You were there. There were some heated moments, I hear. It was pretty tense. Part of the conversation was about some of the controversial comments that he has made over the last year. And following the meeting, there was a statement from the spokesman for Senator Ben Sasse. He said, quote, "Mr. Sasse continues to believe that our country is in a bad place and with these two candidates this election remains a dumpster fire, nothing has changed."

Now, looking at polling on this, 89 percent of voters who were asked say they find Mr. Trump hot headed, 83 percent say obnoxious. How do you think that meeting went and how does he change that perception?

SESSIONS: I think it went very well. Senators, many of them, told me how they thought it went well. That was a little exchange between a couple of the senators, not Senator Sasse. He spoke to Donald Trump. They spoke before the meeting and Trump said something funny about him, you know, they’re different -- that they had a difference of opinion and he -- he was a nice guy. But -- so I thought that was all right and it was a kind of frank exchange you would look for. I believe he came out of it with another positive spin or feeling. The people -- this is a -- the series of meetings he’s been having and I think it's been working for him.

BREAM: OK. He has, obviously, run on the track record --

SESSIONS: Let me say just one thing about his frankness and his directness. This is a strong man. He is not a timid wallflower. The American people are seeing a refinement in his messaging. A more substantive messaging. And they see the strength, though, that they know that needs to be shown in Washington to break the cycle that we are on, to turn this economy around, to help poor people get better wages instead of declining wages, which is what we're seeing, and that's going to be what this election about -- is about, who can fix this economy, who can put us on the right track.

Does it help poor African-Americans to bring in more labor than we have and bring down wages as we've been seeing into this country? Does it help them to have bad trade deals so that manufacturing plants are -- are closed and wages aren't there? We have the highest -- almost double the unemployment rate among young African-Americans than we do among others. So we need to protect this economy, create -- have a strong leader who can break up this log jam in Washington.

BREAM: And there's certainly so many people who that message resonates with, that very frank talk and those promises on those very hot issues. So it's clearly connecting with a lot of Americans, not all of them, including Mrs. Clinton. This week she took on Mr. Trump's business record because it's something that he has emphasized in his run for the White House. Here’s a bit of what she said in Atlantic City this week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINTON: He makes over the top promises and says if people trust him, put their faith in him, he’ll deliver for them. He’ll make them wildly successful. Then everything falls apart. People get hurt. And Donald gets paid.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BREAM: How will he respond to that on the campaign trail?

SESSIONS: Well, he’s been a highly successful businessman, but has invested in hundreds of businesses. And some of them haven't been successful. But most of them have. Atlantic City sank, the whole city went under basically. So I think Donald Trump is -- no doubt about it, he’s a successful businessman, he’s traveled the world, he's invested around the world, he's sophisticated in those ways in a way that Hillary Clinton has no idea on. She does not understand really how jobs are created. She has not created jobs in manufacturing and hotels and things around the world. So I think he clearly has the advantage there.

BREAM: OK. Let's do a little VP talk because, of course, you've on just about every short list out there. There's also an article I read over the weekend that said that you're pushing Mr. Trump to choose a general, somebody in the military that would be greatly respected. The name Lieutenant General Michael Flynn has come up quite a bit. What can you tell us about the veep stakes?

SESSIONS: Well, I am not pushing him to have a general. I’ve said something nice about General Flynn. He was a defense intelligence commander, a three-star general. He knows the secret world of what's going on around the world militarily. So I’m a high friend of his and I appreciate what he does. But they’ll make their own decision about vice president.

BREAM: What about a vice president Sessions?

SESSIONS: I think -- that will be decided by Donald Trump. And he’s going to decide it on who he thinks will be a good president, who he can work with, who can help him be a president. I've said that if he asks me to do that, I would consider it, and would be honored to be considered.

BREAM: OK. Some people who don't know your bio or your background may not know that you were a prosecutor for a long time. So I want to ask you about this Hillary Clinton e-mail case and play a little bit of what the FBI director, Jim Comey, said about that, summing up testifying before the House this week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES COMEY, FBI DIRECTOR: She should have known not to send classified information. I -- as I said, that’s a definition of negligent. I think she was extremely careless. I think she was negligent. That I could establish. What we can't establish is that she acted with the -- the necessary criminal intent.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BREAM: All right, so as a one-time prosecutor, is that the end of it? Is intent necessary? There’s been a big debate about that with these particular potential, you know, statutory violations that she’s been accused of, at least in the public -- court of public opinion.

SESSIONS: Well, I’ve not studied the facts, but it does appear to me that she was aware that she should not use this system for classified information. And the director says she was extremely careless. Now, that's a very close to criminal intent. And there’s a misdemeanor charge that requires less intent. They could have brought that perhaps. They did not use the grand jury where the witnesses are brought before the grand jury and asked questions under oath on the record. That can make a -- strengthen a case, too.

But really the problem is Hillary Clinton. She’s the one that pushed this for her own convenience. And as the director said, this information could well be in the hands of our adversaries right now because that system was not secure and was easily penetrateable and we have the evidence that some -- some of the systems were penetrated.

BREAM: All right, Senator Sessions, we’ll leave it there. Thank you so much for coming into "Fox News Sunday."

SESSIONS: Thank you.

BREAM: All right, when we come back, the panel returns.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BREAM: We are back now with the panel.

Brit, let's talk about the political fallout. Hillary Clinton has been cleared by the FBI, essentially saying, yes, careless, extreme carelessness, but no criminal intent, no criminal charges recommended. She says she’s relieved.

BRIT HUME, FOX NEWS SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: I'm not sure I’d use the word "cleared." After all, the picture that was painted by Director Comey of his conduct was devastating. And, you know, if you (INAUDIBLE) any normal year, any normal set of circumstances and -- and determine that one of the candidates has been extremely careless in the handling of classified information, that by itself would seem to be disqualifying. But in this year and in this moment, it's not for her. So she remains the favorite to become president. It is a striking situation.

Moreover, there is the clear fact that the law that Comey was talking about, or the laws, the book that he -- that he was citing in his decision to recommend no prosecution, didn't quite support his claim, which involved the question of intent. He said it was absent. Normally, that is a factor in criminal -- in the decision to whether to prosecute. But there’s a section of the law that we’ve all heard about all week that does -- that simply says gross negligence, which is pretty close to extreme carelessness if you think about it, and I suspect he chose the words "extreme carelessness" very carefully so that he -- to try to draw a distinction, which I don't think the law recognizes and I think a prosecution would have been a perfectly reasonable decision, though he said that no reasonable prosecutor would do it. So I -- I think this is damaging to her. I don't think it's over. And on we go with a set of choices that most Americans now find for president unsatisfactory.

BREAM: Well, and, Susan, there are so many other things going on here because now Jason Chaffetz, chairman of the House Oversight Committee, says early next week he will make a referral to the FBI for this investigation about whether she lied to Congress. There's potentially an FBI investigation going into the Clinton Foundation going on. The State Department’s reopening its look into this whole thing. I mean there are still shoes potentially left to drop.

SUSAN PAGE, USA TODAY: You know, this controversy isn't over. We’re going to be hearing about it from now until election day. And I agree with Brit that not prosecutable is not the world's strongest possible campaign slogan you could -- you could run on.

But think about the alternative. If Comey had said it was prosecutable, that he was going to recommend criminal indictment of Secretary Clinton, we would be in a totally different place. Democrats would be debating whether to go ahead with her nomination in two weeks. So she has averted catastrophe. She has reinforced the doubts about her character, about her honesty, her transparency, her trustworthiness that are her biggest, single problem. And she's made it, I think, more difficult for her to unite the nation. You know, from the beginning of your show, the discussion of these terrible shootings, you get this sense that Americans feel so fractured and would really like to be drawn together and I think it is quite difficult for either Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump to be the figures in a position to do that.

BREAM: Karl, how much will the VP pick matter on each side or won't it?

ROVE: It doesn't matter much. They have very little impact except in their home state. It will say something about the decision-making process of -- of the candidate, what are they -- what do -- what do they consider to be important in a running mate.

Let me add to -- to what Susan -- Susan and Brit said. Not only does it reinforce that she is not only dishonest and not untrustworthy, that she lied to us about every one of the major claims that she made about this, but it also leaves the stench that the rules don't apply to her. Would -- would -- if the next secretary of state came in and said, I'm going to set up my own private server in my home and I’m going to do exactly what Hillary Clinton did, do you think that the official Washington line would be, go ahead and do it because that's your -- your right, just as it was for Hillary Clinton? So ordinary Americans are looking at this saying, you know what, Bill went and met with the attorney general. The fix it in. Clinton’s been endorsed by President Obama. The attorney general -- even the attorney general admits it was a bad thing to have happen. So the ordinary American -- a lot of ordinary Americans are looking at this saying, there are two sets of rules, one for the Clintons and one for everybody else.

BREAM: And, Juan, I want to quickly get you to react to some numbers. When asked whether she was honest and trustworthy, 30 percent said yes, 66 percent of the Americans said no. If she was corrupt, 58 percent said yes. What does she do with that?

WILLIAMS: Right. Well, I think what she has to do is to somehow overcome by, I think, speak directly to the American people. Now, this week you’re going to have Bernie Sanders, her primary opponent, come out and endorse her. President Obama endorsed her last week. Vice President Biden’s endorsement was put in abeyance given the events in Dallas this week.

But do -- all of the Democrats are going to rally around her and try to transfer President Obama’s ratings are now plus 50, so he’s in good shape to transfer to her the thought that, yes, I trust her. This week he said to the astonishment of many Republicans, she’s the most qualified person ever to run for president. But that's the message that has to be conveyed to reassure especially independent voters, Shannon, that she is a reliable choice.

HUME: It won't matter.

BREAM: (INAUDIBLE).

HUME: She’s not going to be established as reliable or trustworthy.

BREAM: You don't think the numbers turn around, right?

HUME: But that doesn't mean she won't win because of who her opponent is. It's a very strange election cycle in which each candidate is the other's best hope.

BREAM: It is. Absolutely. All right, thank you, panel.

That's all we have time for today. That is it for today's "Fox News Sunday."

Chris will be back next week when "Fox News Sunday" travels to Ohio ahead of the Republican National Convention. We’ll be live from the Quicken Loans Arena in Cleveland with a preview of what's certain to be an interesting time.

Have a great week. We’ll see you next "Fox News Sunday."

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