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The Five

Are Americans turning on themselves?

This is a rush transcript from "The Five," July 8, 2016. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID BROWN, DALLAS POLICE CHIEF: All I know is that this must stop, this divisiveness between our police and our citizens, we don't feel much support most days. Let's not make today most days. Please, we need your support to be able to protect you from men like these who carried out this tragic -- tragic event.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DANA PERINO, CO-HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Dana Perino. This is "The Five" and that was Dallas Police Chief, David Brown earlier delivering an emotional plea calling for an end to the violent backlash against law enforcement in America. His force rocked by a night of terror, a sniper shot 12 officers, killing five and injuring seven.

Two civilians were also wounded. Three suspects are in custody but another who police say was the gunman is dead. He was identified today as 25-year-old Micah Johnson, a private first class in the army reserve who served in Afghanistan. Here's what Chief Brown says the suspect told police before he was killed.

BROWN: The suspect said he was upset about Black Lives Matter. He said he was upset about the recent police shootings. The suspect said he was upset at white people. The suspect stated he wanted to kill white people, especially white officers.

PERINO: Joining us now with the latest from Dallas Fox News Correspondent, William La Jeunesse. Could you catch us up on the latest, William?

WILLIAM LA JEUNESSE, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Sure, Dana. Number one, this much of downtown Dallas will remain a crime scene for the next five days until Wednesday. We just heard from the police department that they've interviewed 200 officers and determined that 12 discharged their weapons last night.

As we know, one of the individuals killed was of course Micah Johnson who was holed up and penned up really on the second floor of that red parking lot behind me. He was killed actually by a bomb that had been attached to a robot that police sent in so no dogs or officers would be put at risk when negotiations broke down, the shooting started again, they detonated that bomb remotely.

We also found out that they did conduct a search warrant of his home and determined they found bomb making materials there, a ballistic vest, riffles, ammo as well as a personal journal on combat tactics. As you said, he did have some military training. We're also told that he belonged to a gun club and was a pretty good shot, a great marksman actually in terms of what happened last night.

And that is one of the theories they're working on right now that he may have been the sole gunman. You couldn't tell because you kind of have this concrete canyon here that when the shots would ricochet off the concrete, it sounded like there was a lot more weapons and potentially there actually were.

However, do remain three people currently in custody a woman who is also found in that parking structure and as well as two individuals who were leaving in a black Mercedes and they found the police did the men carrying a Camo Duffle bag with something inside. They are also in custody. We don't know if they'll be charged. And if they do have a preliminary hearing, well the public will be involved or invited?

Back to you.

PERINO: All right, William. Thank you so much. We're going to take it around the table here. But first, Kimberly, there's been some breaking news today. In Missouri, authorities are investigating a situation when a police officer was shot during a traffic stop on Friday. This is in West St. Louis County.

And also in Georgia today, authorities say that a man opened fire on a police officer in Valdosta that was Friday morning. The man reportedly called 911 to report a break-in and then when the officers arrived, he ambushed them and shot them. Both of the officers are expected to survive but it does feel like there's some sort of coordination or sorry loose coordination happening.

KIMBERLY GUILFOYLE, CO-HOST: Of course, when you see something like this happening, it does inspire others to be able to act and act out in horrible and violent ways. But this is part of the divisiveness that's going on that we've heard.

You know, throughout even this election season and what we've been seeing going on with respect to the Department of Justice and, you know, really upsetting to me and the way that police officers have been demonized and having worked very closely for many years with police officers in San Francisco DAs Office -- Los Angeles DA's office accompanying them in high crime and gang areas on that ride along.

You just see the nature of how difficult and dangerous their jobs are responding to domestic violence cases, going in to those areas that no one else would even want to drive down the street or walk down the street. You couldn't pay them money to do it because of the level of dangerousness and it just -- it's sad because they haven't been getting the respect and the support that they deserve.

And that's why I really hope and I echo the sentiments of the chief there in Dallas that people respect and honor law enforcement throughout the country because they do incredible job putting their life on the line every day and they've lost some of the finest just in the last 24 hours.

PERINO: Juan, I'm glad to you have here. You're going to have the day off today and you came back to be us with and I'm glad. It was sad to hear the chief, David Brown saying that they don't feel support on most days. That was surprising. It was a tragic day all around and also very troubling. I'm glad to have you here for your thoughts.

JUAN WILLIAMS, CO-HOST: Well, I think the Dallas Police in specific don't feel that support. But it's odd because they have done a good job, in fact, in terms of community relations and been a model for other police forces that have been trying to reach out and oftentimes following dictates from justice and other federal agencies about how you build relationships with troubled communities.

So, it feels unfair to me a little bit that the Dallas Police had to suffer this horror -- this trauma. And generally, though, I just -- I mean, you know, this has been such a difficult week with the shootings of the two black men, one in Minnesota, the other in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, and I think even last night as I was leaving the studio, there were marches here in New York City, marches in Chicago, LA several other cities sort of reviving the Black Lives Matter theme.

Because, they are so much upset right now about excessive use of force by police. And I think we've seen that in terms of statistics, questions about, you know who gets killed and why they get killed and the fear, the very real fear that exists in the black community especially for young black men.

So we have at this moment, Dana I think a real divide, and it's not that anybody including Black Lives Matter has any sympathy for this man who perpetrated this terror. I mean the people who are marching in Dallas last night, they were running and fleeing. They had no -- they were in fact more close to the cops than they were to this mad man who was shooting at the cops.

It's a different -- it's just one of these things, though that, in this environment, it's so politically incendiary and it sort of invites everybody to run and say, Oh, I'm with these guys or I'm with that guy instead of saying we're Americans.

PERINO: Yes. Greg, apparently information just coming in from the police that have searched the gunman's home and found bomb material and other sort of weapons and maybe he was planning a larger attack or at least had some sort of indication that there was some coordination.

GREG GUTFELD, CO-HOST: Yes. I mean isn't that -- isn't this kind of what we've all been working for? Like, you know, in the past three to four years, the hysteria over race, the hysteria over identity -- the specials on other cable channels about race, the romanticizing of agitation coming from Occupy Wall Street to Black Lives Matter.

Is it any surprise that this would culminate in actions like these? The protest organizer, Jeff Hood stated that when he saw police -- he was shock when saw police running in the direction of the bullets. And he said that it wasn't lost on him. And I thought that was really nice that he said. But we as Americans don't need to see police die in order to understand their sacrifice.

PERINO: Right.

GUTFELD: You know, this is a job where you die. You know, these are -- these are -- you're not a talk show host. You're not a blogger, you're not a community organizer, you're not a sitcom actor and yet those are all the people on Tweeter who are giving their hot takes about this.

Meanwhile, these guys that are mocked daily who have to go out there and stand and protect people who are trying to loot a 7/11. After this happened, there were people dancing in the streets trying to loot a 7/11 and the cops stood there and did their jobs no matter what.

There needs to be and I said this a long time ago after the shootings in Brooklyn, a PLM movement. You know, it's on -- it's actually on us, the complacency of the American public and the ambivalence about going out and protesting about the people who do the right things and we don't do that because we are so successful and life is so good and violence is down.

So we don't think about it. That's why you have agitation taking on all channels and we forget about the people who protect us. It's an outrage.

PERINO: I thought you're even watching this all day, your thoughts?

ERIC BOLLING, CO-HOST: Yes, I mean I agree with everything you said except one point. The police didn't do their jobs as the crowd looted the 7/11 as they didn't in Fergusson, as they didn't in Baltimore...

GUTFELD: You mean they stood.

BOLLING: ...that's exactly right, they stood as disorder spread, as chaos spread -- the whole point of having a police department, investing all authority in these guys is that they keep the peace and they keep civilization from crumbling. And increasingly they're not because they're under pressure from political leaders not to who are demagogues and liars who tell only part of the story.

Now, let me just say point blank, there are bad cops. I've dealt with them, people who abuse their authority. People with authority tend to abuse it, that's why you keep a close watch on them. But to say that the cops are racist as the president has said again and again from the beginning of his first term, actually with the skip gates story, creates an environment where something like this inevitable.

He tells half the story. Yes, minority communities are disproportionally caught up in the justice system and there is probably some unfairness there but they also have terrible crime rates, actually. And nobody ever says that and that's the central fact for police officers patrolling these neighborhoods, they're terrified.

And so to leave that part out of it, and by the way, what do you think of the people -- the normal people who live in those neighborhoods, what do you think they think? They're terrified, too. The president never mentions that. No political figure ever mentions that. They act as if this is randomly happening to people of color and that's a lie and it makes the environment worse...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

BOLLING: ...more bitter and divided. It's one of the reasons...

WILLIAMS: But, Greg, you know what...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A false scenario.

WILLIAMS: ...it's just not true.

BOLLING: It is true.

WILLIAMS: Because I heard President Obama just today...

(CROSSTALK)

WILLIAMS: ...say this is an abomination that will not stand. Justice will be done. Whoever perpetrated this act against the police will be captured and there is no excuse for it. That's what I heard from the President.

BOLLING: No, what he said yesterday was statistics show that young black men are much more likely to be caught up in the criminal justice system and that is racism. What he didn't say was that young black men are much more likely to perpetrate crimes. I'm not attacking anyone. I'm just saying that's what the Justice Department staffs say. I happened to know them. I really worked on it once.

WILLIAMS: Yes, right. But...

BOLLING: And, it's real and he never said that. So, he act like the whole thing is racism.

PERINO: He doesn't acknowledge it.

WILLIAMS: No. What you have to understand is even if you have a situation, I say this to you as a strong conservative, even if you have a situation where someone might say, oh, well blacks or Hispanics perpetrate more crimes, it doesn't then say, oh, therefore, the people we invest with authority, the people that we give the power to kill people we hand the gun...

BOLLING: Yes.

WILLIAMS: ...and the jailing authority to, are allowed, therefore, to treat these people in an inhumane...

BOLLING: I agree completely -- I -- but, let me just speak really clear. I agree with you 100%. I think there is abuse again I've seen it...

WILLIAMS: Right.

BOLLING: ...and I think we should come down on it like a ton of bricks, but to say that all bad interactions between cops, the minority community results to racism is just not true.

WILLIAMS: No, it's...

(CROSSTALK)

GUTFELD: Can I just point that this has -- this has, in my view, less to do with President Obama in that debate than it is for a greater debate in the mentality of the country and the fact that we used to be, we the people and now we're us versus them and I don't think it's just -- it didn't start with Obama. It started with the early '70s or past 50 years we have moved away from the idea of a single unity to a congregation of separate identities and grievances.

And we've ginned up -- we've ginned up this polarization on cable. And what has happened as well, as you're seeing a country that is disconnected from the external global threats like terror. We cannot even talk about terror. So, what's left? We have ourselves. And we turn on ourselves.

And you're seeing groups of people turning on themselves, turning on law enforcement, turning on different ethnicities because we once looked outward. We once looked outward as a country at what -- even 9/11 was 15 years ago when we've already lost sight of that. We don't even talk about it -- we can't even say Islamic terror but we can easily say the NRA, you know, or we could say Christians. We've lost the ability to look outward and we're now destroying ourselves. I don't know.

PERINO: All right, I thought that was a good way to end it because we've got a lot more to come on "The Five."

Next the heroine dispatch call from an officer who responded to last night's shooting spree. Stay tuned for that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The next thing, you know were officer down. When we heard officer down, the more undercover police officers who wear these uniform police officers started running around the corner. They froze and the shootout began. Police officers started shooting one direction and whoever was shooting started shooting back. And that's when the war began.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Advised shots are fired at Austin and Main Street.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have a riffle and I'm bringing a shield with me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 10-4, 10-4 -- units be advised to have open window with riffle sticking out. All plain clothes need to be suited up. All plain clothes need to be suited up.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We've got shots fired at the Omni -- shots fired at the Omni.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 10-38, I'm at the Omni. What are we looking for?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We've got a female shot at the Omni -- shot fired at the Omni.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUILFOYLE: Back now to the deadly attack against America's finest. Last night 12 brave officers shot in Dallas, five were killed. That's such a disturbing story when you saw this developing last night, Dana and you just didn't want to hear that another life was lost.

There was a lot of confusion as to the number of shooters, suspects involved and just being able to locate them because they were literally trying to pick off officers, you know, one at a time.

And obviously this man had military training and background and he was really able to do some incredible damage and kill some wonderful officers, very disturbing.

PERINO: So alarming and obviously extremely troubling and the fact that it's in Dallas and it's a sniper, obviously, has additional history attached to it.

The thing I thought was very interesting is learning more about the Dallas Police Department which has perhaps outside of the NYPD, done the most to try to diversify its police ranks.

And in, fact, when you break it down between whites, blacks, and Hispanics on the police force, it almost mirrored exactly the Dallas community. It has the lowest murder rate since 1930.

So, now that's in a local community. That's in Dallas. And obviously the grievance that may be triggered -- the shooter was -- the incidents in Minnesota and in Louisiana.

Because as Greg's pointed it out, local stories don't stay local anymore, they're national and so they're reacting to that. So, I think it's very unfortunate that Dallas had put so much time and effort and resources and invested in their police department in a way to train them to be, this great community police department and they had to suffer all of this last night.

GUILFOYLE: Yes, just terrible. Greg, just the senseless violence of it, the environment that's been created that is so caustic and hostile towards police officers, I mean like you said, back in 9/11 everybody, you know, loved the police officers, loved the fire department and now I feel like first responders are under siege.

GUTFELD: It now lasts about 18 minutes. It's interesting to see you -- I think if you sense that there is a breaking point, I would like to think that you're wrong. That we're misreading this because we know that overall violence is receding.

You know, life spans are getting longer. The food is getting better. People are healthier, people are living better lives. Yet, the violence seems to be more sporadic but spectacular, more shocking but fewer. There are fewer incidents but more shocking.

The only thing I can think of is that as violence recedes, there's readily available motivations online and media available to create a contagion so that people just some freak does something so then another freak does it and you see it with copycats and mass shootings.

So, that we sense that perhaps this is the end of it. This is the apocalypse. Things are happening out of control. Meanwhile, violence is declining. It's strange. It's a strange conflict...

(CROSSTALK)

GUTFELD: ...to absorb.

BOLLING: I think the crime rate is rising, actually in a lot of places and I think you're going to continue to see it rise. I think whenever you politicize crime, it increases. You've seen it in this country. You've seen it in a bunch of other countries around the world, most recently in Venezuela, but it's a constant. Whenever you tell people you have a moral right to disregard the law because you've been wronged, whenever you see politicians stoking grievances...

GUILFOYLE: Yes.

BOLLING: ...for their own benefit as they want to do, you see a rise in disorder. Also the rest of us sort of look at this and say what country is this and we're bewildered and shocked into silence. I was I think everyone at the table was. A lot of politicians aren't. They see this as an opportunity immediately. I saw with the attorney general...

GUILFOYLE: Yes.

BOLLING: ...today, who immediately got on the gun control thing and endorsing Black Lives Matter which is a racially exclusive group, by the way...

GUILFOYLE: Right.

BOLLING: ...and I think they're -- they've excluded whites from their meetings, really? And the attorney general endorsed them, whatever. But, they see this as an opportunity as a pretext to disarm the population. That's exactly the moment when I feel like I need to protect my family more than ever. What does it tell you about them?

GUILFOYLE: Well, the congressional Black Hawk has also won that led with that when they were speaking today it was one of the first comments out that blaming Republicans and saying that you should pass these gun laws, how frustrating it is and I was shocked because I thought wow this is great. They're going to come out and speak let's hear what they have to say. Say something about the officers and about those who serve this country and our community's faithfully. I think it's a missed opportunity to show leadership.

WILLIAMS: No. I don't think so at all. I think they did a great job and I think they're right on target in terms of expressing what their constituents, and that's how America works, you know, these are the people who vote for them, have concerns about police officers who are two too aggressive in their communities and people feel unsafe when the people who are charged with protecting them, remember the blacks, Hispanics, rich and poor are also American citizens and deserving of protection from the police and if they don't feel that the police, in fact, are there to protect them but to protect against them and to protect, let's say, rich whites against them, well...

GUILFOYLE: There's no evidence that the...

WILLIAMS: ...bridge that kind of resentment.

(CROSSTALK)

GUILFOYLE: Oh, my God.

GUTFELD: But, Juan you said yourself.

WILLIAMS: ...let me finish this point. Newt Gingrich said something that I thought was amazing today. Newt Gingrich who as you know is up to be Trump's VP said very clearly that whites don't understand the difficulty of being black in America because they don't understand the level of danger and the risk and the discrimination, the higher level of risk that when it comes to being black and dealing with the police or dealing with the society at large. That's an honest comment. In other words, look, I rely on police as much as anybody. This is -- I think you are making a point. You know, we live -- both live in Washington. We rely on cops to protect us. But I can't say oh, gee, therefore, all cops, anything they do is great. No.

GUTFELD: Nobody seems to say that though.

(CROSSTALK)

GUTFELD: But the fact is you have made this point many times. The people who value the police the most are black communities.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

GUTFELD: So, there.

WILLIAMS: No, but I had to say...

GUTFELD: That's my point.

WILLIAMS: No, but that's a legitimate point. I respect it. In fact, I agree it with. But you can't, therefore, excuse when cops act in a way...

GUTFELD: Of course not.

(CROSSTALK)

GUILFOYLE: But nobody -- no one is accusing that. No one is accusing it.

WILLIAMS: ...that guys -- that guy bleeding on the floor in Louisiana...

GUILFOYLE: I know.

WILLIAMS: ...and a guy in his car and his wife and a kid in the backseat seeing the man shot right there.

GUILFOYLE: But nobody would excuse that. Lawlessness is not tolerated and whether you're wearing a blue uniform and you're carrying a badge, you still have to follow the rules and the laws. And so that's why there will be justice and there will be a trial. And things will be heard and it will be determined, right by a jury.

How did President Obama react to the news of the killings of police officers in Dallas? He blamed guns again. You'll hear that next.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERIC GARCETTI, LOS ANGELES MAYOR: The officers who died in Dallas didn't just die as heroes, they lived as heroes. They embodied the democracy and protected it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GUTFELD: So after the Texas massacre, President Obama brought up guns:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: We also know that when people are armed with powerful weapons, unfortunately it makes attacks like these more deadly and more tragic. And in the days ahead we're going to have to consider those realities as well.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUTFELD: It's the familiar refrain from Orlando to Dallas. But gun control doesn't address the acts, be they of terror or ambushes of police. We don't hear the same response with vehicular homicide or arson.

Here's Obama again on the shootings in St. Paul and Baton Rouge:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: These are not isolated incidents. They're systematic of a broader set of racial disparities that exist in our criminal justice system.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUTFELD: Maybe. But the tendency to group local separate incidents into one greater national phenomenon often doesn't reveal real truth. It only serves to obscure specifics in each single case. The Dallas police had no connection at all to those incidents, but they took bullets because of them. They suffered for a media narrative.

Fact is, today's police get more training, are subject to internal affairs and citizen review boards. They face more rules and procedures than ever. They've gotten better. But have we? We obsess over Islamophobia, condemning negative portrayals of Islam but we afford no such sensitivity to police. So the idea that law enforcement is just racist whites killing blacks continues even though we know it's absurd.

I could recite the facts. How more whites die from police than blacks or that black and Hispanic cops are more likely to fire a gun at blacks than white cops, but why would I do that?  You can't change minds that refuse to change.  As emotional conclusions, formed well before the facts are ever known.

So put on your outrage helmets; the road is about to get bumpy once again. Protest, if you wish, and shout if you must, and be happy you're safe and protected by some of the greatest people on earth.  

Dana, I think that the gun argument can be a legitimate one.  But it allows you to evade the central issue, which is, in my view, the war on cops is driven by radical sentiment that's been around forever.  And we just -- we cannot face it.

PERINO:  I agree.  And also, for some reason, a -- well, maybe this is part of it.  A lack of respect for police officers.  

Now, I'm not saying that's across the board.  And I am sympathetic to what Juan was saying, repeating actually, what Newt Gingrich said earlier today, that I don't know what it's like, you know, to be pulled over 34 times in a year because of a broken taillight or for no -- or maybe some sort of, like, untoward suspicion.  

I -- I think that President Obama tried to strike a pretty balanced tone.   He does bring up gun violence.  This is not new.  He has got six months left in his presidency.  He is not going to stop bringing up gun violence.   It's probably his biggest regret, that he doesn't feel like he was able to do something.  

I don't think that would be the solution to solve the problem, the root cause that you're talking about.  But I don't think it was unreasonable for him to bring it up yesterday.  

GUTFELD:  Yes.  What do you think, Kimberly?

GUILFOYLE:  You know, I like the fact that he had a better tone about it today.  But I'm also just focusing on the progression of events and the rhetoric and the ideology and the push from the left and from liberals that has really put forward this, I think, and perpetrated this false narrative about law enforcement being bad in this country.  

You know, just when you look back at Ferguson and the whole lies when people were saying, you know, "Hands up, don't shoot."  And the evidence showed that didn't happen.  

So for me, I feel it's very -- we've done our law enforcement officers, men and women across this country and as you pointed out so diverse, so many of these departments, a great disservice.  So as a country, we should mourn with them, for them, and try to be better ourselves in terms of understanding the job that they do.  

GUTFELD:  You know, Tucker, what about this instinct that happens after any kind of new story?  You go to your sides.  Right?  You go to your sides.  I go to my side.  They go to the other side.  And then we put forth our point of view.  And it is ever possible -- there are researchers that say it's impossible -- to persuade anybody?  

CARLSON:  You know, if we all agree to play by the same rules, the rules of logic, in fact, it might be possible.

GUILFOYLE:  Yes, right.

CARLSON:  But it is a disproportionate argument.  On the one hand, you have people who say, the people who actually know a lot about the subject.  They say, OK, name a gun law that would have prevented this.  

GUTFELD:  Right.

CARLSON:  Given that we have a Second Amendment, and we can't confiscate all guns, that's the only gun law that will work, is if we took all the guns and ammo away.  We're not going to do that.

So in the absence of that, what would have stopped this?  And they can't provide an answer.  Because there isn't one.  

So instead they say, "Well, let's just do something.  Don't you care?"   Well, of course I care.  

At some point you have to ask yourself, is this really about public safety?   Or is this, again, a pretext to disarm the population?  And it clearly is.  

The same with diversifying police departments, as you noted in your intro.   Is there any real evidence that doing so makes police less likely?  Are white male cops the scariest figures in America?  Are they more or less likely to use deadly force in pursuit than other kinds of cops?  And the answer, of course, is they're less likely.  

GUTFELD: Yes.

CARLSON:  But that doesn't matter, because it's not about.  That we're going to see this used as a pretext for a federal takeover of law enforcement.  That's exactly what's going to happen.  It's in the process of happening.  

GUILFOYLE:  It's started already.

CARLSON:  Exactly.  

CARLSON:  And let's just stop pretending.  Let's stop playing along.  Let's be totally honest about what's happening.  

GUTFELD:  What do you think, Juan?

WILLIAMS:  I was just struck by what Tucker said.  I don't ever think that there's going to be a federal takeover of law enforcement.  In fact, you know, going back to what you were saying, I think there's a pattern.  And I think the pattern is apparent to me but maybe not you to of these incidents all over the country.  

We saw two earlier this week of the cops shooting black men.  

GUTFELD:  Right.

WILLIAMS:  But with he know now, over the last few years, that that's the source of Black Lives Matter.  That's why people are marching in the street.  It's not that people are stupid or so politicized that they just don't like cops.

To the contrary, I think cops are honored as, according to the polls, cops are some of the most respected people as an institution in American life.  

And it's to the point where we don't even track how many fatal shootings are committed by cops.  "The Washington Post" right now is involved in a project trying to track it, because the numbers just aren't available.  We don't even know.  We're having a hard time distinguishing.  

But I think the NRA and the politicians, as we've seen just this week, they refused to act on gun control issues, no matter what.  Even if terrorists, Greg, even if it's a terrorist involved.  

And, yes, we could control some of the background checks, gun show loopholes.  I don't know we could have prevented this, because this guy was a veteran.  He had this high-powered rifle.  

GUTFELD:  You just answered your own question.  

GUILFOYLE:  Yes.

WILLIAMS:  I know.  I'd like to do something to stop people having illegal guns.  

GUTFELD:  I think that it's a straw man.  Everybody wants -- nobody wants maniacs with guns.  

WILLIAMS:  Good.

GUTFELD:  It's just that the laws that are -- that are being offered don't go after the maniacs.  

CARLSON:  Why do we have so many maniacs?  Maybe that's the question.  Not why we have so many guns?  Why do we have so many maniacs?

GUTFELD:  It's because -- it's because we've lost the ability to put people away, because that violates their rights.  You can no longer institutionalize people.  

CARLSON:  But there might be something else going on.  

GUTFELD:  I know what you're getting at.

CARLSON:  It's time -- I don't know the answer.  But I think there is something going on.  It might be worth looking at it in an impartial way.  

WILLIAMS:  Good point.  Good point.  

GUTFELD:  Well, there's an increased diagnosis of certain psychological illnesses, but that could be because they're just discovering it more.  Who knows?

Next, Wisconsin Sheriff David Clark on the war against law enforcement in America.  Stay tuned.  

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  It's horrific.  It's unbelievable to think that people are willing to kill in cold blood.  To do that during a peaceful protest is unimaginable.  

(END VIDEO CLIP)  

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REV. JEFF HOOD, ORGANIZED DALLAS PROTEST:  Never in our wildest dreams would we have imagined that five police officers would be dead this morning.  

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARLSON:  That was one of the organizers of last night's protests in the city of Dallas.  Sniper fire turned that demonstration into the scene of chaos and terror, the worst slaughter of law enforcement since 9/11.  David Clark has been warning for a long time now, though he calls the war on police in America.

Here's what he told FOX News just this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID CLARKE, MILWAUKEE COUNTY SHERIFF:  You know, I said that going on almost two years ago that war had been declared on the American police officer and said it on your program after the -- two of New York's finest were gunned down in their cruiser by an individual who claimed to be making amends for Mike Brown in Ferguson.  Some people thought that I was a little over the top when I said war had been declared.  War had been declared, but the American police officer knows it has.  This is just another ugly chapter in that war.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARLSON:  I think we both agree that -- that we invest so much authority in the police that we want to keep close track of them.  

WILLIAMS:  Yes.  

CARLSON:  Anybody we vest in authority we want to keep close track of.

WILLIAMS:  Yes.  You know, this came to mind when the things were going in Ferguson, and there was the militarization of the police.  And you saw they were getting all that military -- and it was conservatives who said, "Hey, we don't need that."

CARLSON:  And I was one of them.  

I also -- I agree with Sheriff Clarke.  And I do think that there is a war on police, a rhetorical war on police.  And it raised the question, who's going to want to be a cop?  If you're worried about the quality of people to who become police officers, how much will that quality drop in the wake of things like this?

WILLIAMS:  I think, well, first of all, I think we get very high quality cops.  It is tough to become a cop.  In New York City and Washington, D.C., you have to go through rigorous testing.  

CARLSON:  But who's want to -- who'd want to deal with this, Kimberly?

GUILFOYLE:  That's the problem.  Yes, you  wake up in the morning, and you don't know if you're going to come home and see your family.  Oh, and you're not paid very well.  And oh, if you're in a city like New York, you can't help and take guns off the street, because de Blasio, the worst mayor ever, canceled "Stop and Frisk," which is legal.  

I mean, it's just demoralizing to me, because I know how it works, and I know what it takes to keep streets safe and abide by the law.  And you have to be able to give them the tools and the resources to support and the confidence to be able to do their jobs.  

I think cops out there, when they go into a traffic stop or they roll up on a domestic violence situation, are terrified.  

CARLSON:  Well, of course they are.  

Dana, why is it that the same people who are always lecturing us about illegal guns and how bad they are -- and I agree with that -- are the same people arguing against "Stop and Frisk," which was a very successful program designed to take illegal guns off the street here in New York City.   How does that work?

PERINO:  Yes, they seem to have -- they have, like -- whatever the ethical dilemmas are, they're clashing, and they don't know how to separate them out, right?

So the other problem is, I think, that you're going to continue to see -- and this is happening in Dallas.  I read today that this last year they had a high number of retirements, and they don't have as many recruits coming in.  It's a high-stress job.  A lot of them suffer from PTSD or PTS.  I shouldn't say "D."  Post-traumatic stress.  And the resources aren't there.  

And so then cities, if we are looking at a potential downturn in the economy, it gets harder on economies.  That's when crime tends to go up.   And even though that hasn't been necessarily the case overall in the statistics in the last several years, I think that police departments across the country are on edge, as evidenced by what we just said at the beginning of this block -- this show just today in Georgia, a police officer arrives to investigate a 911 call.  He's ambushed by the caller and shot.  

And another cop in Missouri, shot in the neck this morning at a traffic stop.  How much more is possibly coming?  They have to be prepared for that.  And it takes resources to do it.  

CARLSON:  So the Justice Department is going to impose diversity guidelines on police departments, guaranteed.  Do you care what your cops look like?   Do you care what your airline pilots or heart surgeons look like?  Don't you care what they do?

GUTFELD:  Exactly.  Exactly.

You know, it goes back to this point that, you know, there is a concern you should never smear entire groups based on the bad apples.  We've learned this with the phrase Islamophobia.  When we're talking about migrants, when we're talking about BLM or any kind of activists, you shouldn't -- if somebody throws a rock, it's not -- it's not reflective of everybody else.  

Unless you're a cop.  And I looked this phrase up.  There is such a phrase as police-aphobia.  And that's what we're going through.  There actually is.  We talk about Islamophobia.  It is time to talk about police-aphobia.   People that are -- that are -- target police in a negative way.  Why don't we start talking about that?

WILLIAMS:  I just think people love policemen in this country.  And I must say that, for my money, I think the problem is when you hear people like this congressman who says, "Watch out, Black Lives Matter.  Watch out, Obama.  Real America is coming after you."  That -- that's the division that you were talking about, Greg.  That's falling into your group.  That shouldn't be happening.  

CARLSON:  All right.  Next up, a passionate plea from Juan for understanding and respect and a way forward in the wake of all of this.  

GUTFELD:  Boo.  

CARLSON:  We're back in just a moment.

GUILFOYLE:  Oh, my God, what is wrong with you?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  We as protesters aren't for violence.  We aren't looking to harm any officers.  So our hearts go out to the officers who were shot and who lost their lives tonight.  The movement isn't about us against them, it's about all of us coming together.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAMS:  Welcome back to "The Five." the nation was stunned by the events in Dallas last night.  And that on top of the emotional upset from the bloody videos of police killing two black men in Minnesota and Baton Rouge.  

Everyone is asking the same question today: How do we get this cycle of violence and hate to stop?

Here's my idea.  Let's have an honest conversation about the combustible mix of race and police in this country.  Talk now, because silence is assent to every cop hater, every race baiter.  We can't be silent any longer.  

That honest conversation starts by admitting that there are things we just don't know.  You can't know, unless you're a police officer, what it's like to be the front line of the thin blue line.  You can't know what it's like to protect law-abiding people from crazy people, evil people, hustlers and crooks.  And if you don't wear the uniform, you'll never know what it's like to deal with suspicion, even outright hostility, while working a neighborhood suffering with drugs, unemployment, and a ton of fatherless kids coming from broken homes.  

Similarly, you can't know, unless you're a black who Hispanic person, the fear of being approached by a cop.  In that moment, you know that, even if you obey every command, but something still somehow goes wrong, other police, the justice system, and the politicians will doubt you.  They'll even judge you guilty.  

White people don't know that fear, because here's a clue: black men are 6 percent of the nation but 40 percent of the unarmed people killed by police.  

Every black parent has had the talk with their sons about what to do if they're stopped by a police officer.  I know I've had this conversation with my two sons.  

The police are supposed to protect and serve everybody, everyone in the community, all colors.  But that trust is fragile, and it is framed.  So keep in mind, the police have a monopoly on the use of deadly force.  They are the only ones given the power, the tools to kill.  It is right to hold them to a different standard, a higher standard.  

Today, Speaker Paul Ryan got it just right.  He said, quote, "There will be a temptation to let our anger send us to our corners.  That script is too easy to write," Ryan said.  "Let's resist that temptation," he said.  "It's too predictable.  Let's defy those predictions.  A few perpetrators of evil do not represent us.  They do not control us."  Way to go, Paul Ryan.  

So let's start the honest debate right now tonight -- K.G.

GUILFOYLE:  Well done, Juan.  You agree, Greg?

GUTFELD:  I'm not so sure about that statistic that you did.  

GUILFOYLE:  Right, check it out.  

GUTFELD:  I've got to check it out.  But I thought -- I thought, you know, that's exactly right.  

It would be nice to have a discussion and to be willing to meet halfway, but it seems like we're in -- we're in an era of the unbending mind, where once somebody gets to that place, they just can't get out of it, because it becomes a personal affront.  

When the left decided to make the political personal, that changed everything, I think.  

WILLIAMS:  Dana.

PERINO:  Well, I think that happens to people, though, that would maybe be considered on the right, if they say something that sort of sounds sympathetic to somebody's viewpoint on the left, then they're attacked.  

GUTFELD:  True.

PERINO:  And so of course, you do want to be silent, and you go to your corner.  

But I will admit, Juan, I'm humble enough to say that I don't know what it would be like to be black and walk down the street and be worried about being pulled over or thinking that your sons or that your family members might not be treated fairly.  And I respect that I don't know that.  And that that has to be a part of the understanding, the conversation.  

WILLIAMS:  Tucker.

CARLSON:  The truth is, I can't hear you if I think you hate me.  That's true for all people.  

GUTFELD:  Good point.  

CARLSON:  And we need to stop generalizing on the basis of race.  So for all those people who think that every black man under 40 is dangerous, that's a divisive thing to think.  

For the president, who assumes that white America is bigoted, and he does - - he's said that repeatedly -- that's divisive, too.  I can't hear him.   When I hear him -- when I hear him imply that middle America is bigoted, and he does it a lot, I stop listening.  I can't handle it.  And so both sides need to stop generalizing on the basis of race, no matter what race.

WILLIAMS:  Well, I think racism is a reality.  But the way you...

CARLSON:  On both sides.  

WILLIAMS:  ... you hear it, that he is -- he is calling people bigots.  

CARLSON:  He is.  

GUILFOYLE:  Yes, I mean, I liked Paul Ryan's comments today.  I think those were, you know, important.  And again, I just want to stop the importance of also understanding the other side, understanding the police officers and the fantastic job that they do every day.  

I don't think it's right to -- that people have really tried to say that all police officers are racist...

WILLIAMS:  Well, that would be wrong.

GUILFOYLE:  ... or that they don't serve or want to serve the African- American community, that they only want to serve rich whites, because that is not the case.  

WILLIAMS:  I would agree with you.  

Some final thoughts when "The Five" returns.  Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PERINO:  Welcome back to "The Five."  We are awaiting a new press conference from the governor of Texas and the Dallas Police Department on the police attack last night.  

As we wait, some final moments now on the ambush.  Let's take it this way.   Greg, I'll start with you.  

GUTFELD:  I guess just to reiterate, my concern is that you can't let radicalism achieve its goal, which is to balkanize our country and separate us.  The only solution I can think of in my limited brain is a renewed sense of community that radiates as a sense of patriotism.  

As an agnostic, I can freely admit that Sundays now for our country are just another Saturday.  Sundays don't mean much to people.  It's time for secularists, and it's time for agnostics, and it's people who have no religion to actually think about, what do you replace it with?  Because this is what we're replacing it with.  Identity.  Identity is taking the place of religion.  And it's taking the place of patriotism.  

PERINO:  We need to do an entire show on that.  

GUTFELD:  Yes.

GUILFOYLE:  Are you going to become religious?

GUTFELD:  Never.  Oh, never.  

PERINO:  So we could do an entire show on that.  

GUTFELD:  But you can create something.  

PERINO:  All right.  

Kimberly, you're up.

GUILFOYLE:  We'll work on that project.  

You know what?  I just want to talk about the victims, the officers that lost their lives.  I want to focus on their families.  I want to focus on the children that were left behind.  It pains me deeply.  I know what it's like to grow up without a parent and to lose a parent at a young age.  And I can only think what they're going through.  

But I hope that they are inspired and honored by the way that their parents, you know, served and really were able to give back to the community and show courage and fearlessness.

And to the police officers out there right now watching, you know, we honor you.  We respect you, we thank you for the work that you do in our communities across this country; and we pray for you tonight.  

PERINO:  We have one minute left.  Juan, your thoughts.  

WILLIAMS:  Well, I just think it's so important to -- a little different than Greg's take, because I think religion in the country is pretty good.  

GUTFELD: Secular religion.  

WILLIAMS:  OK, but I happen to think it's a bond.  It's something that helps us come together.  You know, Christians can be of any color, of any kind, and most of us are Christians.  

And I would say that it's so important to have and honest conversation.  I just felt great with Tucker here.  I was talking to Tucker, and I thought, "You know what?  That's a real conversation."  Those are real issues.  I understand it's a different point of view, but I appreciate it.

PERINO:  Tucker Carlson.

CARLSON:  Me, too.  Well, thank you.  

You can kind of see where this is going.  I think everyone has this sort of ominous feeling, like this is all moving in the wrong direction.  And I think it's just really important to remember that the order and the prosperity and the happiness that we take for grant really took hundreds of years to build.  And that we ought to defend them, really, at all costs.  

PERINO:  Thank you.  

Stay tuned to FOX News throughout the night for continuing developments on the attack against police in Dallas.  We will see you back here on Monday. "Special Report" is up next.

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