Trump, Clinton getting fair and balanced media coverage?

The debate continues on 'The Five'


This is a rush transcript from "The Five," June 1, 2016. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

KIMBERLY GUILFOYLE, CO-HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Kimberly Guilfoyle along with Juan Williams, Eric Bolling, Dana Perino and Greg Gutfeld. It is 5 o'clock in New York City and this is "The Five."

The presidential candidates and the press are going at it. Donald Trump tore into the media yesterday saying they should be ashamed for their dishonest reporting on his donations to vets and it wasn't well received.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Is this what it's going to be like --


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- covering you if you are president?

TRUMP: Yeah, it is. Let me tell you something. I'm a person --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is it we're going to have this kind of confrontation in the press room?

TRUMP: OK. Yeah, it is going to be like this, David. If the press writes false stories like they did with this. If people know the stories are false, I'm going to continue to attack the press. Look, I find the press to be extremely dishonest. I find the political press to be unbelievably dishonest. I will say that.


GUILFOYLE: Today, Hillary Clinton piled on.


HILLARY CLINTON, DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Can the president unify us, and here, Donald Trump fails at every turn. He doesn't want to unify us. He wants to divide us. That's why he started his campaign attacking people and he hasn't stopped. Yesterday it was the press that he was attacking. Now, if you are in public life, you are not always going to like what the press says about you. I have some experience with that. But part of the genius of our democracy, our system, is we have a free press.


GUILFOYLE: She claims to be the press-friendly candidate as the one who is always happy to answer reporters' questions. So why doesn't she put herself out there like Trump? Listen to her answer.


JAKE TAPPER, CNN: It's been something like five or six months since you held an actual press conference. Is that something you are going to remedy soon?

CLINTON: Oh, I'm sure we will. You know, look, I, I was shocked myself that I've done nearly 300 interviews.


GUILFOYLE: Whoa, new math. Clinton hasn't held a news conference this entire year or a Fox News debate. And as for the 300 interviews, that's from her campaigns quote, "internal tally." So what do we make of this? Dana you go, yes. I'm sure.

DANA PERINO, CO-HOST: Well, I'm just assuming that Hillary Clinton's campaign is counting interviews to be like her appearances on Ellen, which are fun and they are great for the campaign, but that is not what Jake Tapper is talking about. That's not -- I wouldn't tally up interviews using that, unless they want to be a little bit more forthcoming about what they are. As I understand at the young reporters that are covering the campaigns, and most reporters are younger, they have not been there since 1992 covering her husband's presidency, so they may not know a lot to some of the stuffs come back up all the scandals from the 1990s. They're kind of new to it. She's annoyed with them. But the other thing I heard is that they just feel like they don't even get a little morsel. So what I found is that, when you have reporters in the briefing room or on the campaign trail, they have a job to do. Their editor expects them to turn in a story, it used to be at the end of the day now it's multiple times in a day, and they have to have something to write about. So feed them a little bit. You have to give them some morsels. And I think she would be better off if she did some press conferences as well. Get out of the debates with Bernie Sanders, have done those in a long time. The interviews with Ellen are cute, but I think she would benefit from doing a press conference.

GUILFOYLE: You know, actually holding yourself up to perhaps some real question. I mean she won't debate, you know, she's shying away from -- she wouldn't come on Fox News, Juan, to do a debate.

JUAN WILLIAMS, CO-HOST: No. She does debates. What do you mean? She's done several debates.

GUILFOYLE: OK. Well, did she come -- did she accept Fox News request?

WILLIAMS: No, no, no. I understand your point Kimberly.


WILLIAMS: But I'm saying she's done multiple debates. And I disagree with Dana. I think that, in fact, it's tougher to sit and do an interview where someone goes in depth with you. I think press conferences are often scripted your responses. I mean people have talking points that they reiterate. And if they select who is going to ask, be asking questions, you and I both know this from White House days, they pick who is going to ask and sometimes even tell people we're going to ask -- we want you to ask about this. So, to me, a press conference is not the be all and end all.

GUILFOYLE: OK, but, I mean opening yourself up to discussion to all the press .

WILLIAMS: Yeah, right.

GUILFOYLE: . should be important unless you are just presidential candidate -- Eric, looking for safe spaces on Ellen.

ERIC BOLLING, CO-HOST: That is so annoying .


BOLLING: . what you just said.

WILLIAMS: Oh, is it?

BOLLING: That you are scripting the questions, you are going to pick that guy .

WILLIAMS: Press conference.

BOLLING: . because you know that person is going to ask you about that.


BOLLING: And then you are going to skip over to Fox, one and you are going to go MSNBC and then skip over the Fox guy again and go back over to see -- I mean, that is really -- that's what wrong with the American press and that's what's wrong with the briefing like that.

PERINO: It's not actually how it works either.

BOLLING: OK, good. Well, thank you. Thank you for --

WILLIAMS: Yeah, that's how it works.

BOLLING: Anyway, but do you see the difference between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump? Hillary Clinton is like pushes back on the idea of getting unscripted questions fielded from various different press groups. Donald Trump embraces it. He looks for that confrontation and he goes back and forth and doesn't -- isn't offended by stuff, fights hard back, but Hillary Clinton avoids it completely. Now in her defense, she's doing it and winning, so if I'm here, I guess I continue to say -- play the same game. My playbook is working and I'm winning, so I'm not going to open myself up to James Rosen or a Carl Cameron question. Maybe that's the way to do it. So, but I will tell you, it will get a lot more difficult for her when it's Trump-Clinton.

GUILFOYLE: All right. So how do you see this? Is she able to sit there and say, hey, look at what Trump is doing despite the fact that she won't open herself up for an interview?

GREG GUTFELD, CO-HOST: I don't think that's, I don't think that's her big problem, you know. Everybody says it's sexist if you talk about her -- the problems when she's speaking. It's not being sexist. It's being helpful. She needs a speech coach, because if you notice when you listen to her it's the arc of yelling. She begins a sentence up here and then she sends it down here. She's like, "do you know what's wrong with Donald Trump? Donald Trump." And you can see this arc and it is so irritating. And she's got to break this habit, because I think that's actually her big flaw. Maybe that's why she avoids a lot of things because she's not very good at it, but she's got -- if somebody's --

PERINO: But that's her speaking style in a speech.

GUTFELD: Speech.

PERINO: Not in interview.

GUTFELD: But I think --

PERINO: So there are different styles for ever different events.

GUTFELD: Yes, that's true. And that's the problem, she changes. I think that the more you can approximate your speech the way you talk at the speech with the way you talk to people, the more successful you are. Now, you know, Trump is different on a, you know, on a stage than he is in person, but not by much. He still says the same, pretty much the same things he will say to you --

GUILFOYLE: Well, that's called being authentic.

GUTFELD: Yeah, exactly. I mean, and sometimes he needs to have a governor when he says these things. But I mean the fact is, you know, he got, you know, you know, he's getting praise for what he did, but you have to remind yourself every time Obama bashed the media, we were all over Obama. I think I wrote like five monologues whenever he would go after FNC. So, you know if we're going to go after Obama about being hypersensitive, we got to see that yesterday Trump was hypersensitive to a fault.

GUILFOYLE: Yeah, but Obama will come on here and Trump doesn't say no to any interviews. He goes and he speaks to everybody. So that's a big difference.

GUTFELD: Except when he ran away from Megyn Kelly.

GUILFOYLE: And then --


GUILFOYLE: And then did a exclusive sit down with her with one minute --

WILLIAMS: No, but that's months later. And I think --


WILLIAMS: What you have to understand with Trump is, he will do things and I was reading about this, today, you know, we know about his calls in to people and he even calls in. I was surprised to read this. I didn't know he called in to some mid level producer for CNN, MSNBC, tries to shape stories before he agrees to go on. And of course, he goes on, he just phones in. He doesn't show up. So that changes the dynamic. And I think people oftentimes give Donald Trump a big pass in the media. The conservative critique of the media is often that media does not give full attention to conservative candidates.


WILLIAMS: You can't say that about Donald Trump.

GUILFOYLE: I don't think --


GUILFOYLE: He's upset because he phones in.

BOLLING: Are you saying --

GUILFOYLE: I mean, he's showing up for interview --

BOLLING: Are you saying .

GUILFOYLE: And he said this doesn't make any sense.

BOLLING: . Donald Trump gets --

WILLIAMS: And he phones in. That's what I'm saying.

GUILFOYLE: What? Who -- at least you're doing an interview. I think -- Hillary Clinton, would you like to phone in to "The Five," right now? We'll take your call.

WILLIAMS: Sure. But she --

GUILFOYLE: Call the control woman.

WILLIAMS: That's not what she did .

GUILFOYLE: I'd rather have some calling in.

WILLIAMS: . mimicking Donald Trump yesterday with CNN with Jake Tapper. But I'm saying, I don't think that the media should lie down like this and have candidates calling in.

BOLLING: You think the media is lying down to Donald Trump?

WILLIAMS: Oh, boy, do I have -- not, not.


WILLIAMS: It's not even close.


WILLIAMS: In fact --

BOLLING: I mean --

WILLIAMS: In fact that he said that the billions, billions, Eric, and free media given to Donald Trump by the press. That you can't just --

BOLLING: No. That's not. There's a difference. You're not -- that's completely -- you're conflating two issues. You are conflating TV shows wanting to put Donald Trump on because he brings ratings, right?


BOLLING: The media, giving the news media, the objective news media.

WILLIAMS: Right, right, right.

BOLLING: Giving Donald Trump a pass?


BOLLING: They destroy the guy for everything he says.

WILLIAMS: Boy, I wish they did.


WILLIAMS: I wish they did.

BOLLING: They would go back 30 years he said something and trying to figure out why he said it 30 years ago.

WILLIAMS: Let me just say, oh yeah, how about this? People, thousands were cheering when the World Trade Center fell. How about this? You know what those Mexicans? Mexican government is sending the bad ones. How about this? Blacks kill most whites.


WILLIAMS: Does the media say this guy, this guy makes stuff of everyday.

BOLLING: The news media kick him and kept at him about all those things.

WILLIAMS: No, I don't hear them say a world. This guy's .

BOLLING: How about this.

WILLIAMS: . budget proposal .

BOLLING: How about this.

WILLIAMS: . trillions of dollars in debt.

BOLLING: I got one.

WILLIAMS: No entitlement cuts. Paul Ryan .

BOLLING: I got one.

WILLIAMS: . the bad guy.

BOLLING: I got one. It was a video that caused a spontaneous reaction in Benghazi .


BOLLING: . that killed four Americans.

WILLIAMS: What's that?

BOLLING: Where is the media vetting that outside of Fox?

GUILFOYLE: All right.

WILLIAMS: We've had .

BOLLING: Outside of Fox.

WILLIAMS: . congressional hearings.

GUILFOYLE: Right. So we're gonna have the Trump won praise from Rush Limbaugh for talking with the reporters, let's listen to this. We get Dana and Greg's reactions.


RUSH LIMBAUGH, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: That was the kind of press conference republican voters has been dying to see for, who knows, how many years. How many years have people been begging for a republican to just once take on the media the way Trump did? All the way from the premise, to the details, to the motivation, he took them all on.


GUILFOYLE: But he got some critical feedback as well from Charles Krauthammer, your favorite, Dana.


CHARLES KRAUTHAMMER, FOX NEWS POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: But it is a sense of Trump's character. Is this what you want in the White House? He was asked, "Is this how you gonna be behaving in the White House?" He says, yes. I think at one point he was asked about the attack on Susana Martinez, which he had said was because the economy was bad in New Mexico. He said, "Well, she wasn't very nice to me." Now, is that going to be the criteria by which a president decided whether to attack or praise or just ignore anybody else, either a politician or foreign leader, another country by the criterion of how good are they to me.


GUILFOYLE: All right, Dana, I get your reaction to those two.

PERINO: Well, I think that what Rush is saying is true. Like there are, there is a desire and demand for republicans to take on the press more like that. I know I was been criticized by a key anchor at this network, in a friend way, but saying that I didn't do enough to push back against the media, and I should have done more, I should have fought more. And my answer to that is that's easy to say. Trump gets away with it because he's skilled at it. He doesn't care what they say about him. And I just felt that as the press secretary to the United States of America, I had a responsibility to answer the questions to the press. And they have -- as I've said earlier, they have a job to do. One of the things our country does great is to have our First Amendment, the freedom of the press to ask questions to hold the government accountable. The veteran's story, I think like it got blown away out of proportion and it was an actually very easy one to answer. If you know that your boss is going to do an event, there's going to get some media scrutiny, have that locked up tight. Don't prepare just for the next day's headlines. Prepare for the headlines in two weeks, because that's where you need to make sure that whoever -- from the press secretary position, you find out who is in charge of making sure that this money is getting to whichever groups we going to send them out to, and I need a clean list so that I can answer questions from the press. Then none of this would have happen. So as they go forward, that's just one thing I would think about.


PERINO: Don't prepare for tomorrow morning's headlines, prepare for the stories to come in the days ahead.

GUILFOYLE: Plan ahead, like my favorite t-shirt growing up. OK, Greg.

GUTFELD: Well, I agree with you.


GUTFELD: There you go.

PERINO: Thank you.

GUTFELD: Trump gets mad at the press when it's not on his side. Remember on Monday, he excitedly tweeted about a network for their Trump night and so he was very pleased about that. So he gets -- he is happy when it's on his side. He gets unhappy when it's not. And therein lies his impulsiveness, you got to be on his side. And this is a reminder for anybody in the media, that you are electing a second boss. And if you don't kiss this guy's ring, he's going to be all over you, he's going to make it hard for you to make a living. He's going to say your show is terrible when everything is awful. It's petty, you know, but that's kind of what he does. And the thing is, I mean, I think that what happened -- what the press did was a favor. They got him to clarify his position on his charities and it helped him.

WILLIAMS: Well, they had to shame him.

GUTFELD: Yeah, yeah.

WILLIAMS: It really has to say .

GUTFELD: It did work.

WILLIAMS: . why didn't she --

GUTFELD: And it -- but it helped him. I think it helped him because the more, the more that he .

GUILFOYLE: Change him? Yeah.

GUTFELD: . comes clean, the more that he comes clean about these things with specifics, the better it is for him because you need the guard rails of criticism. The more you allow him to get away with stuff, the more you hurt him. If you are a fan, you hurt him by enabling him.

BOLLING: Can I just jump in here. Rush is right, Trump is the anti PC guy and this is what resonating as far Charles, love you Charles, brilliant guy. But you ask the questions, "Is that what you want in the White House?" Apparently, that's what the American -- the republican American people want. Trump is breaking all records for votes, numbers for votes in history.

WILLIAMS: Oh, please.

BOLLING: In history, so the answer would be to you, Charles.


BOLLING: Yeah, that's what they want.


GUILFOYLE: And Charles, Charles Krauthammer --

WILLIAMS: That's why most republican haven't voted for.

GUILFOYLE: Charles Krauthammer also said that there shouldn't be a third party run. It would be bad for the Republican Party in another sound bite. All right, coming up, a long time Clinton pollster is warning Hillary her nomination isn't a sure thing like she says. Plus, President Obama got political again, chiming in on the election during a speech this afternoon. Hear all that, next. Stay with us.


PERINO: Hillary Clinton declared she will be the democratic nominee, but one of her husband's former pollsters is casting doubt. In the new op-ed, Fox News Contributor Doug Schoen writes, "There's more than a theoretical chance like Clinton may not be the nominee." On top of her legal problems, Schoen predicts major trouble for the secretary if she loses California on Tuesday, quote, "If Sanders win in California with turbo-charged the mounting democratic unease about her violability." And another democrat, Al Sharpton has advice for Hillary, "She needs to toughen up if she ends up going against Trump."


AL SHARPTON, AMERICAN CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVIST: She's coming in like this is a boxing match where she's got on the gloves and the trunks waiting on the referee and three minutes to say "round."


SHARPTON: He is -- this is a street fight.


SHARPTON: He's got a broke Coca-Cola bottle and a razor.


SHARPTON: You can't come in with gloves waiting on the referee to fight Donald Trump. You got to fight the kind of fight he's fighting.


SHARPTON: He showed that yesterday.


PERINO: Let me go to my boxers over here.


PERINO: Like Kimberly and Juan. I don't think --

GUILFOYLE: I like that. I mean, it's true. He's a counterpuncher, but you know, he's got a blade and the gloves. The point is, that she's not even playing at the same level that he is. It's just, and she's going to have to raise that level. Right now, she's like hiding out, doesn't want to do the debate. She's doing poorly in California just like I said yesterday. I agree with Doug Schoen, she's in big trouble. That is demoralizing to the Democratic Party if she can't even close California which is, you know, Electoral College rich for the big picture, for the general election. I really, honestly, don't think she's going to be any match to go up against Trump. I think she -- he's going to crush her.

PERINO: OK. You heard it here first. Juan, do you think a little bit of hyperbole from Dough Schoen today, in the Wall Street Journal? That saying that she -- actually, he's like saying she may not actually end up being the nominee.

WILLIAMS: No, I think he's saying it's easier to imagine. And I think Dough -- I don't question Doug Schoen. I think he's terrific. So, but I think what Dough is saying is, hey, look, the reality is at the moment everything relies on the super delegates and can this moment in California possibly get the super delegates to change how they think. Now Dough's premise is based on the idea that, in fact, we've seen erosion in the idea that Clinton is the best democrat to go up against Bernie -- to go up against Donald Trump; that Sanders outpolls Hillary Clinton versus Trump. But, in fact, as Eric will surely tell me in a moment, you know, nobody has called Sanders a socialist who vacationed in Russia and, you know, wants to bring Venezuela to these shores. Once that kind of attack was to get going, once people stopped them on the right stopped being entertained by Bernie, they would just pile on them. I mean it would be something to see. So I just don't think that's real. But I appreciate what Doug is saying is like, you know what, she needs to do well -- I mean, we said this before. She's got Puerto Rico and New Jersey coming up. She's got this wrapped up. And I don't see the super delegates fleeing in that scenario, but it would look better if she was able to capture the biggest state on the map.

PERINO: You want to tell him what he thinks you are going to tell him?

BOLLING: He's right. I remember the early on, July, August of last year, everyone had, everyone beating Donald Trump early -- so, yes. The Quinnipiac Poll today, 45-41 Clinton within the margin of error, statistical tie. Trump wins on independents, Trumps wins on the economy, Trumps wins in securities securing the country. Clinton wins immigration. Here's the point. Four months ago, Hillary Clinton was destroying Donald Trump head-to-head. Now it's a statistical tie. Four months, three months from now, I think it's going to be flipped. Donald Trump will be leading the big way. And the best candidate, the best nominee that's not Hillary Clinton on the democrat side isn't Bernie Sanders.


BOLLING: It's Joe Biden waiting in the wings, if something does happen -- and then I think it would be a very, very close .

WILLIAMS: So you think --

BOLLING: . close battle.

WILLIAMS: You don't --

BOLLING: Biden would be more -- he's best suited to go up against Trump of all --


BOLLING: Of all of them.

PERINO: Let me --

GUILFOYLE: Hundred percent.

PERINO: Let me bring in one other person who got on the campaign talk today, and that is President Obama who is just champing at the bit to campaign for Hillary. Listen.


BARACK OBAMA, UNITED STATES PRESIDENT: If we turn against each other based on divisions of race or religion, if we -- if we fall for, you know, a bunch of "okey-doke."


OBAMA: Just because, you know, it -- you know, it sounds funny or the tweets are provocative, then we're not going to build on the progress that we've started.


PERINO: All right, so, do you -- will it help or hurt Hillary Clinton if she's out there campaigning?

GUTFELD: Why did we run that? He's full of "it's".


GUTFELD: That was incredibly painful.

GUILFOYLE: That was good. That was funny.

PERINO: That was his attack against Trump.


PERINO: That's how it turned out.


WILLIAMS: You know what, you know what Greg? He just didn't want to say .


WILLIAMS: . what he was thinking.

GUTFELD: That he wants to say --


GUTFELD: You know what?


GUTFELD: His brain was saying save it.



GUTFELD: And the mouth was going, no.

WILLIAMS: No, don't say it. Don't say it.

GUTFELD: No, no, runaway.

GUILFOYLE: Valerie Jarrett was on his shoulder going no, no, no.


PERINO: Have some class.

GUTFELD: You know, he is aware that the more that -- if he comes out against Trump, that helps Trump. Imagine if GWB went out against Obama in 2008, it would only have helped Obama, because after eight years, everybody is tired of everybody.


GUTFELD: It's all that. But anyway, the big story here is what Sanders said on "Meet the Press" when he meant said that California was the big enchilada, which is -- racist. I mean, what does he even call New York, the big bagel or Florida the big plantain? I mean, this is your party, the Democratic Party. What a bunch of bigots. How can you sleep at night? You make me sick to my stomach.

PERINO: They ought to issue a retraction.

GUTFELD: They should.


GUTFELD: No, he should step down from wherever he is.


GUTFELD: I'm not sure where at this point.

PERINO: All right, next, a major admission today from the State Department on the suspicious admission of questions like Fox's James Rosen from the agency's record. Breaking news on that, ahead. And then later, you've all met my dog Jasper and Eric's dog, Freedom, but in a short while from now, you are going to meet Kimberly's dog, Bella. She'll be making her first- ever appearance on "The Five." So don't miss that cutie pie, coming up.


BOLLING: Breaking new developments on a story we brought you a few week ago, the State Department accused of intentionally editing an exchange from our own James Rosen with Events Spokeswoman Jen Psaki, to possibly cover up deception by the Obama administration on its Iran nuclear negotiations. Now here's the edited version.


JEN PSAKI, WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: There are remaining concerns that we have as you all are familiar with, whether it's their involvement in support of the regime in Syria or humanitarian issues. And so, that has not changed that. The Obama administration says that --


BOLLING: See that white flash in the middle? Here's what actually happened.


PSAKI: James, I have no new information for you today on the timing of when there were any discussions with any Iranian officials.



ROSEN: And then I appreciate your indulgence.

PSAKI: Sure.

ROSEN: Is it the policy of the State Department, where the preservation of the secrecy of secret negotiations are concerned, is concerned to lie in order to achieve that goal?

PSAKI: James, I think there are times where diplomacy needs privacy in order to progress. This is a good example of that.


BOLLING: Saw that white flash, roughly eight minutes of video was cut out, including the part where Psaki admitted that sometimes the press needs to be misled to accomplish administration goals. Now initially, the department blamed the glaring omission on a glitch, but today, a complete reversal. Here's Spokesman John Kirby.


JOHN KIRBY, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESMAN: It was a deliberate request, that this wasn't a technical glitch. It was a deliberate request to excise video. And as I said, you know, and I said it this morning to the staff, I don't find that to be an appropriate step to take. So again, my focus is going to be on the future and making sure that we have the right rules in place to make sure it doesn't happen again.


BOLLING: You know James is our Chief Washington Correspondent is back with us now with his reaction -- the admission, James, what made Admiral Kirby finally come around and admit to what they did?

ROSEN: A, the facts, B, the fact that Admiral Kirby himself is a stand up guy. Look, Admiral Kirby and I have gone at it in two different briefing rooms, both the State Department and the Pentagon, and we've had our differences in that setting.

But he acted like a stand-up guy here. He recognized that this was very improper, and he launched an investigation to determine how this happened. He took it seriously.

The office of the legal adviser at the Department of State got involved in this, and that's a measure of how seriously it was taken. So I commend the admiral for his actions.

BOLLING: All right. Greg.

GUTFELD: James, so someone made this phone call, and my question is, do all roads lead to Rhodes?

ROSEN: Wait a minute. I see what you did there.


ROSEN: I think that we don't know who it was that demanded that this video be edited this way. The person who fessed up within the State Department to having made the editing deletion at the request of this unspecified person said they can't remember who it was.

PERINO: Of course.

ROSEN: I think that's probably doubtful. If you remember being asked to do it, you have, probably, a very good chance of remembering who asked you to do it.

But in any case, we may learn more about this, and I hope people will follow up at the White House, where Jen Psaki, who was also prey to this editing deletion, is now the White House communications director.

BOLLING: Right. Fail your way up.

WILLIAMS: It's interesting the way you put that. You think she was prey to it. You know, I mean, gosh, people might be suspicious of whether Jen Psaki was involved with this.

But James, I was -- I'm curious about the probe. Because I agree, Admiral Kirby looks like a stand-up guy in this moment. But it's been referred to the office of the legal advisor. At the same time, Kirby says there's no ground for a formal investigation. He says there are no rules that govern this kind of administrative decision.

So why, if this is done, then, is it in the hands of the office of legal adviser? It looked to me like, gee, like they would determine if someone broke the law.

ROSEN: I'm not an attorney, Juan, though I do occasionally take relish in playing one on television.

WILLIAMS: Thank you.

ROSEN: I will say that probably there are laws on the books that make it a crime to doctor official government evidence of some kind. But I think, reading between the lines, what Admiral Kirby is saying is "We're at a point where we cannot definitely say who made this order, who issued this order. It's three years in the past. So we're going to just let it be," albeit with the proviso that he's going to put in place procedures so this doesn't happen again.

But as I say, I think there will be further investigation of this if -- at least by other news organizations.

BOLLING: All right, James. Let's go to Dana, who has some experience in what goes on behind the scenes there.

PERINO: I think you're being really kind, James, and I think that their explanation falls well short of acceptable.

Because, one, it is a violation of the Federal Records Act. It has to be. And that's yet another Federal Records Act violation that we -- the State Department is dealing with right now, at least the accusation of, and the State Department's I.G. saying that Hillary Clinton should not have had the private email server set up, because it was a way to get around the Federal Records Act. So one, that's a problem.

No. 2, it had to be a political appointee who made this call. Because some -- whoever the person is, the civilian, the bureaucrat that said, "Aye-aye, I will do this order" would never do that unless it came from somebody very powerful.

So I do hope that they follow up, because this would be absolutely an unacceptable explanation if it were a Republican administration. They need to be held to account for it.

ROSEN: Well, on that point, I've had a number of State Department beat reporters, colleagues of mine, people I know for years, already calling me and emailing me and giving me their suspicions as to who exactly issued that order, and one of the -- without going into those names, because it would be unconfirmed. One factor that has led people to focus on different people is the fact that, if this person who issued the order would still be employed by the Department of State. And therefore, that would...

PERINO: Yes. Or elsewhere in the government.

ROSEN: Right.

PERINO: I mean, this -- they could figure this out in about five minutes. So when they say that we're not going to look into it, we're going to look forward, that's not -- I think that that's unacceptable. And I think that, really, you could find out in five minutes, if you're Admiral Kirby, find out who it is and come clean with it.

BOLLING: James, hang in there. Now let's bring in someone who doesn't play an attorney on TV, who is actually an attorney on TV -- K.G.

GUILFOYLE: This is true. I find them all guilty, James, just so you know.

ROSEN: All right.

GUILFOYLE: I want to prosecute them individually and repeatedly.

This is very obvious, that they know exactly who did this and who made the call, just like they know who pushed the video for Benghazi, but it just seems that over and over again, they can engage in this duplicitous behavior.

And I'm left thinking, I wonder if you have even thought about some other instances where, perhaps, we should go looking for some, quote, "glitches" where tape is missing, because they seem to have this unique relationship with you where things like this seem to, you know, run amok. Tape is missing. You ask the tough questions, and then they try to hide it.

ROSEN: I definitely have not suffered from a lack of attention from the Obama administration over the two terms. I grant you that.

Look, I think this is a significant moment insofar as we have the United States government essentially admitting here that its spokespeople lied from the State Department podium, that they then admitted that from the State Department podium, and then tried to cover up that admission by deleting the official archive of this material.

And so I'm honored to play some small role in holding our public officials to account; and we'll see if this is the end of it.

GUTFELD: I happen to believe I know who made the call to edit that. It's Katie Couric. They wanted a dramatic pause.

BOLLING: It was her producer.

GUTFELD: It was her producer.

ROSEN: She's been after me for years. For years she's been persevering [SIC] me.

BOLLING: James, I have a hunch the story's going to resonate, and we'll be talking about...

GUILFOYLE: Good job, James.

BOLLING: ... a little bit more about it tomorrow. Thank you very much, James.

ROSEN: Thank you, guys.

BOLLING: Bret Baier will have much more on this story on "Special Report" coming up after this show. But next here, a gorilla was killed at the Cincinnati Zoo over the weekend. You heard plenty about that story, but not too much on the deadly shootings in Chicago. We'll make sure you know about the latter when "The Five" returns.


WILLIAMS: It was another deadly and violent weekend in Chicago, but it got scarce media coverage, unlike the gorilla that was shot at Cincinnati Zoo over the weekend.

Now Greg, prophetic as ever, pointed out last night that sometimes it's easier for people to protest an animal's killing than a human killing. Six people were killed in Chicago over the holiday weekend. At least 63 others shot. Newsbusters did a tally. ABC, CBS and NBC had 54 times more coverage of the death of the gorilla than they did on Chicago's crime crisis.

Now Greg, this is something that just irritates the bejesus out of me, because I think we have an ongoing crisis; and mostly it's black people killing black people, contrary to what Mr. Trump thinks. And I don't see that we in this -- in the media say, "You know what? This is intolerable."

Something has to be done. I don't know what has to be done, but in terms of media, media attention can be shown on this issue.

GUTFELD: Well, you -- when you do a story on the gorilla, that's politically nonthreatening. It's a coward's concern.

If you go after gang violence, you run the risk of being called a racist, because you're focusing on black -- if you focus on -- if you were a white commentator focusing on black-on-black crime, you will be called a racist.

WILLIAMS: I don't know. I think you're wrong. You mean you think...

GUTFELD: it happens...

WILLIAMS: ... that is racist?

GUTFELD: No, no, I'm saying there are people that will call you racist.

WILLIAMS: But I'm saying -- I'm saying as a black person, of course...

GUTFELD: Yes, I'm saying as a white person, that -- that's a problem.

WILLIAMS: Right. That's your fear.

GUTFELD: Yes. Remember -- you remember what the mayor of Chicago did while there were shootings and homicides? He went after Chick-Fil-A. Because Chick-Fil-A was an edgy injustice. "Oh, you know, the owner is against gay marriage." That's an edgy injustice, as opposed to gang violence, which requires you to come out and say there are people killing people here, and it's wrong. And it's kind of boring. It's not edgy enough.

WILLIAMS: Well, you know, Dana, I'm not going to say that it was wrong to cover the death of the gorilla. I think it was very interesting. I know my family was certainly preoccupied with it. The kids. Everybody is talking about it.

Allen West just wrote in a little memo he sent out, he said, "You know what? People talked about Cecil the lion."


WILLIAMS: Remember when Cecil the lion was killed? So that's interesting. But it seems to me we have an ongoing crisis in inner cities, particularly in black America right now, and I don't see that the passion is in the media for that story.

PERINO: Well, I was thinking earlier about one of the first things that you learn in journalism school is that it's not news if it happens all the time. So one of the sayings is that you don't cover a plane that -- all the planes that landed safely at La Guardia today. But if there were, unfortunately, to be an accident or a crash, then you would cover that, because it would be news.

And I wonder if the media is just so desensitized to the normalcy of a killing spree on a Memorial Day in Chicago that it doesn't register as news, as the gorilla story did.

WILLIAMS: Eric, how do you read this one?

BOLLING: I'm going to defend the networks on this one. Look, as Dana points out, 69 shot in Chicago on a three-day weekend isn't new. I mean, this has been going on for a while. So that -- reporting on that again. We've heard that before. They should still do it. I agree with you on that.

But you know, a 450-pound gorilla with a four-year-old child with a video, as amazing as it is, and a controversy over whether he should have been shot or tranquilized, that doesn't come along ever once in -- every, you know, few years. You point out Cecil the lion and maybe others. But that's an interesting story, and it's a user-friendly story. And people, they're going to -- look, they're in the business to getting eyeballs to the shows. That gets eyeballs.

We did it. We led with it.

WILLIAMS: I don't doubt it, no, no. I appreciate that.

GUILFOYLE: Because television -- television is a visual medium, right, and everybody is talking about it. So you're saying, OK, so that's where the news is.

WILLIAMS: But you know what I was going to say to you is, you know, I see, even from some conservatives, they say, "Look, abortions are going on. Refugees are dying in large numbers, and Americans have trouble dealing with those difficult issues. Instead we go and talk about Cecil the lion or Harambe the gorilla."

GUILFOYLE: I think we should be talking about those difficult issues, and in fact, we have on this show.


GUILFOYLE: You know, we went down there and I covered -- you know, Philadelphia, I went down and covered the Doctor, you know, Gosnell trial and sat there through some of the most horrifying testimony, even as a prosecutor prosecuting child abuse cases, that I've ever seen or heard in my life. OK? I wouldn't wish on anybody to see what goes on there. But you have to tell the story, too. It's incumbent upon us.

Eric is right: television is a visual medium. There was great video of it. It was a child. It was this endangered species. It was really kind of, like, the perfect medium for television to be able to put that forward to say this is the story that's resonating.

However, but where are people like Black Lives Matter up in arms about the deaths of African-Americans in Chicago?

WILLIAMS: There you go. That's what -- I agree. That's what I think.

GUILFOYLE: Why isn't Rahm Emanuel, you know, speak to this, holding press conferences?

WILLIAMS: Where is -- where is all the protestors. Where are the people marching?

GUILFOYLE: Yes. Where are they? They should.

WILLIAMS: Stay tuned, because Gregory has a guilty TV pleasure admission. He's going to reveal it to all of us, and you're going to want to hear about it. So stick around.



GRAPHIC: Greg's Lessons from "The Bachelorette"


GUTFELD: I watch "The Bachelorette," the show that has 26 men vying for the hand of one woman. I watch it because it exposes one of the great illusions of our time -- and I love the outfits.

Consider this fact: For the world to accurately reflect "The Bachelorette" ratio of men-to-women, you would need six planet Earths with its current male population. For the world to reflect the show's female ratio to male, you'd have to remove 3 billion women from Earth. These are all rough estimates.

Fact: There are 3.4 billion men and 3.4 billion women on Earth. Truly, "The Bachelorette" misrepresents reality. You know when you sell a car and you have all the buyers stop by at the same time? That's this show. It's false scarcity, an illusion tricking you into thinking if you don't act now, there will be none left. See any store that advertises "two days only" or "just one left in stock." It's the same thing.

Every big decision you make -- buying a house, a car, or for women, dating a guy in New York -- the urgency is driven by exaggerating the lack of supply while increasing the impression of outside desire.

It's bad enough to want it, but it's worse when others want it, too.

So to beat this, simply ask yourself one question: Are you pursuing something to have it or to enjoy it? If it's to have, then you won't enjoy it, since having it was the whole point.

Lastly, all of you men attacking me for choosing "The Bachelorette" over the Stanley Cup, I'm sorry, but soccer is just not man enough for me.

GUILFOYLE: Oh, boy. Even I know that.

GUTFELD: Yes. Kimberly, you don't watch "The Bachelorette," because you live it.

GUILFOYLE: I am it. I'm wearing the crown, baby.

GUTFELD: You trick men into thinking like there's only one Kimberly.

GUILFOYLE: Hold on. I think this is going to go very poorly for me right now.

Yes, no.

GUTFELD: No. All right.

GUILFOYLE: I'm not answering. Fifth Amendment, again.

GUTFELD: There you go.

GUILFOYLE: I learned that from Clinton's staff.

GUTFELD: Dana, I read this book "Influence."


GUTFELD: Every time -- now everything I look at I see through the eyes of this guy, Robert Cialdini, who -- this is all about scarcity, about how you develop, you can change people's minds by making them think there's less of something.

PERINO: That's right. That's why, like, there's a store up here -- do you guys walk by those stores, and they've been going out of business for five years?


PERINO: I mean, that's the same thing; that's the same principle. It draws up in at 90 percent of the cheap handbags.


Eric, you know this. You might know this stuff.

BOLLING: So business has been going through this for ages. Right? Remember the tulip crisis. Can't remember the year, but the tulip crisis, everyone thought tulips...

PERINO: 1880s.

BOLLING: Yes. Tulips were going extinct. There was going to be no more tulips. And the price of a tulip went for, like, from 30 cents up to $10,000.


BOLLING: It's the perceived scarcity you talk about.


BOLLING: There's a new show that's going to beat "The Bachelorette."


BOLLING: New show. "Coupled." Have you seen this show?

GUTFELD: No. It sounds like -- do they go on an island?

BOLLING: I like, maybe watching it and hate these -- yes.

GUTFELD: They're on an island and...

BOLLING: They're in Anguilla.

GUTFELD: In order to leave somebody, you have to take somebody with you.

BOLLING: Take someone with you, you can stay. And if you break up, they have to -- it's like really, really -- you're going to like it.

GUTFELD: Do you remember I pitched that idea?

GUILFOYLE: Oh, my gosh.

GUTFELD: Juan...

WILLIAMS: Why do you watch this stuff?

GUTFELD: Because I learn things.

WILLIAMS: What did you learn?

GUTFELD: I -- I...

PERINO: About human behavior.

GUTFELD: Yes, I watch...

WILLIAMS: Human behavior?

GUTFELD: That's my zoo.

GUILFOYLE: He's just a freak show.

GUTFELD: That is my zoo. People go to the zoo in Cincinnati and drop their kids. I watch the zoo on TV.

GUILFOYLE: Jump in and save the child.

WILLIAMS: I love that idea.

GUILFOYLE: Sacrifice yourself.

WILLIAMS: I love the idea of a human zoo or what, but I think this is all staged, and it's false; and there's no real emotion. These people are all, like, pretending.

GUILFOYLE: You don't watch it to even know. There's been a few successful marriages.

By the way, the ratio of, like, men to women in New York, apparently, it's not so good.

GUTFELD: Scarcity.


GUTFELD: Yes, but you don't have that problem.


GUTFELD: You have the globe to deal with.

Best part about "The Bachelorette," Chad. He is the Trump of "The Bachelorette." He rips on all the contestants, and he rags on the actual show while it's going on. And it -- I think it's not going to end well, but it's certainly great TV.

I know I have to go.


GUTFELD: I talk about "The Bachelor" once a year.

BOLLING: How do they get the big soccer ball in that little net on the ice?

GUTFELD: I have no idea. I don't know.

All right. "One More Thing."


GUILFOYLE: Well, hello there. It's time for "One More Thing," and this is my little baby girl, Bellina (ph). Look, there she is. I mean, it's Bella, but I call her Bellina (ph). Say hello, Bella. Oh, my goodness.

So Bella is here because, for the seventh straight year, Bella is a winner. It remains the top dog name for female dogs in New York City for the pooches. There we are. Feast your eyes on that face. So this is according to the health department.

More than 1,127 licensed dogs across the five boroughs are named Bella.

Now, you might be asking how about for the boys? Max is the No. 1 name. I am so sorry, Dana. I hope you're changing it, and it's going to be -- the new trend is going to be Jasper.

PERINO: No, I like the originality. I like the originality.

GUILFOYLE: Isn't that sweet? The other runners-up were Lola, Lucy, Daisy and Coco.

GUTFELD: She looks like Glenn Beck.

GUILFOYLE: What are you talking about? She looks like me. She is so cute. Look at her hairdo. Isn't it -- right?

PERINO: Very cute.

GUILFOYLE: She resembles her Mom.

PERINO: She's adorable.

GUILFOYLE: Thank you very much.

PERINO: And so well-behaved.

GUILFOYLE: Thank you so much. She's a very good dog. And look at how sweet. That's why people often ask me, "Is she even alive?" Yes, in fact, she is.


GUILFOYLE: She is. I brought her in.

Greg, people ask that. Look at her. Hello, dog.

GUTFELD: That's adorable.

All right. The opposite.


GUTFELD: I hate these people!


GUTFELD: This is for all you young men and women who work in offices every day and are forced to travel to cities; and then you have to come back and you pay your expenses, and they make your expenses impossible. Look at that little face. Because they use these new computer programs with your expenses, and they never work.

So what ends up happening is American Express cancels your corporate credit card, because nobody pays your expenses, because you're using a computer program.

Everybody who's got a job, traveling salesman, knows exactly what I'm talking about. And I hate those programs, and I hate the people who invented them.

PERINO: Peter would agree with you 100 percent.

GUTFELD: Don't make me travel!

PERINO: It's the worst part of the month when he does those expenses.


PERINO: All right. And I missed my turn?

GUILFOYLE: Oh, I'm just relaxing here. This is my comfort dog.

PERINO: Bella, you're going to like this. Feast your eyes on this one. This is a moose on the loose in Massachusetts in two towns, Watertown and Belmont.





PERINO: Check him out. It's not like he was just sauntering through these towns. They woke up to a bizarre sight that police were trying to get him.

They finally were able to say that it was a very unique situation. A moose in an environment like Watertown, definitely out of the ordinary, but...

GUILFOYLE: He can move! Woo, he's got -- he's got wheels.

BOLLING: Got time to do this?

PERINO: Yes, go.

BOLLING: Very quickly, President Obama, he watches FOX News. We all knew it. Watch.


BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And I haven't, you know, turned on FOX News or listened to conservative talk radio yet today, but I've turned them on enough over these past seven and a half years to know that I'm not exaggerating in terms of their story.


BOLLING: You're not alone, President Obama. FOX News just broke a 13-year record, the highest rated news, highest rated cable network in all of basic cable. Third month. It hasn't happened since 2003. Up 26 percent.

GUILFOYLE: Yes. Winners.

OK. Go.

WILLIAMS: Go. You know what? Life is full of surprises. Look at this taxi driver.




O'NEAL: You ever seen my face before?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my gosh! Oh, my gosh!


WILLIAMS: Yes. That's Shaquille O'Neal in disguise for Lyft. Life is full of constant surprise.

GUILFOYLE: Oh, my goodness. All right.

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