Debate grows over Trump University after documents released

Mike Huckabee and Stuart Stevens weigh in on 'The Kelly File'


This is a rush transcript from "The Kelly File," June 1, 2016. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

MEGYN KELLY, HOST: Breaking tonight, new questions about whether Democrats are feeling some political panic over their White House hopes.  As President Obama suddenly jumps into the 2016 presidential race.

Welcome to "The Kelly File," everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. On the same day, a new national poll shows Mrs. Clinton and Donald Trump running neck and neck. President Obama travelled to Elkhart, Indiana for a speech on what he called, quote, "The clear choice in this election." Some political writers are saying, that makes Mr. Obama the first sitting president to campaign for the party's likely nominee in decades. It follows a one-two hit for the Clinton campaign.

Not only did this new survey from Quinnipiac defy predictions that Mrs. Clinton would be way ahead by now. But a second poll, this one from California, shows the Democratic front-runner facing the threat of a Bernie Sanders win in California next Tuesday. Not the kind of headline you would want at the end of a primary race. And one of the possible reasons we today heard the President sounding like this.


PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: The Republican nominee for president has already said he'd dismantle all these rules that we passed.  That is crazy. Have we really forgotten what just happened eight years ago? But don't think actually this agenda is going to help you. It's not designed to help you. Their answers to our challenges are no answers at all.



KELLY: In moments, we'll be joined by Fox News politics editor Chris Stirewalt, former Bush Secretary Dana Perino and Richard Socarides who is a former senior advisor to President Clinton.

But first, Trace Gallagher reports from California on this significant turn on the 2016 race. Trace?

TRACE GALLAGHER, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Megyn, even before she began her White House run, Hillary Clinton was trying to distance herself from President Obama. Remember in 2014 when she took a veiled swipe at the president's view on foreign policy saying, quoting, great nations need organizing principles and do not do stupid stuff is not an organizing principal. And from the start of her campaign, Clinton has made it clear, she's not running for Obama's third term. But Hillary Clinton's perspective first term isn't exactly electrifying the Democratic base specially the young people who were so critical to getting Obama elected in 2008 and still hold him in high regard.

So, instead of dealing the President out, he's about to beat Hillary Clinton's ace in the hole. And White House aides say Obama is all in.  Chomping at the bit to fire up the Democratic base. And while the President isn't naming names and will largely stay on the sideline until the Democrats have a nominee, his speech today in Elkhart, Indiana, was aimed at propping up his own record, drawing a distinction between Democrats and Republicans, and taking the job at the presumptive GOP nominee. Watch.


OBAMA: And today's economy, we can't put up walls around America. We're not going to round up 11 million people, we're not going to put technology back in the box. We're not going to rip away hard earned rights of women and minorities, and Americans with disabilities.


GALLAGHER: It's also been a couple of decades since a sitting president actively campaigned for the party nominee. And when Obama did campaign for his party back in the 2010 midterms, Democrat got trounced. And while the president's approval numbers are rising, some analysts believe that's partly because of the knockdown drag-out primaries. One final note, only once in the past 68 years has one party held the White House three terms in a row, when George H.W. Bush, succeeded Ronald Reagan -- Megyn.

KELLY: Uh-hm. Trace, good to see you.

Our panel joins us now to react. Chris Stirewalt, our Fox News digital politics editor. Dana Perino who is a former White House press secretary, co-host of "The Five" and author of, "And the Good News Is."


KELLY: Which is now in paperback. Also Richard Socarides who is a former White House senior advisor under President Bill Clinton and a Democratic strategist. Good to see you all.

PERINO: Thank you.

KELLY: So, let's start with that one Stirewalt that it's been 68 years since one party held on to the White House for three terms in a row. The odds if you look at it from that perspective are stacked against Hillary Clinton.

CHRIS STIREWALT, FOX NEWS DIGITAL POLITICS EDITOR: Right. Trace mentioned about what happens in midterms. Very often what happens in midterms is that they go against the party in power. The same trend bears itself out, when parties try to hold on for three terms, people like change, they elected Barack Obama for change, and if Hillary Clinton is running as a third Obama term which is what he wants her to run as. He wants his legacy protected. If she's running as that, that provides extra challenges against the candidate -- to say the least a robust change agent.

KELLY: Correct. But Dana, the question is whether Barack Obama stepping into this race, helped her, hurts her. I mean, obviously Democrats love him. And now he's got 51 percent approval rating in the country. So, we're talking about that sort of section in the middle and what effect he has on them?

PERINO: Well, one of the reasons that President's don't usually campaign for the nominee is because people are sick of seeing them. And now, for 46 percent of the country that would never vote for Hillary Clinton, that's not going to be persuasive to them. But I think that one of the things President Obama can do that would be very effective for Democrats is, when they finally decide that they have a nominee, and they need to consolidate support behind whoever that is, Hillary Clinton.

I think that President Obama can be helpful to the Democrats there, especially for the young people, they have great affection for President Obama. And his approval numbers being at 51 percent. I don't think they've been like that in about seven years. So, I think that's significant. Gas prices are low. Stock markets. Those are sort of indicators that you look at to see how things are going.

But certainly it is a head wind for Hillary Clinton to try to claim both the nostalgia of her husband's two terms. Obama's third term and then to still say that she would be a change agent for the future which is what Americans are saying that they want is change.

KELLY: All she ever says on that is that she's a woman.


KELLY: It's like, you're going to need more than that. I mean, seriously, even though a lot of people would love to see the first woman president, it's like, that's not good enough, Richard. She's -- I mean, if you look at the electorates, they want change. Two thirds of the country feels we're going in the wrong direction. And so, you think it's going to be enough for her while Dana points out she's invoking Bill Clinton, he's going to run the economy. President Obama, it might be his third term if that's what she's trying to tell us. Trust me, I'm change, I'm big time change, because I have different body parts.  


RICHARD SOCARIDES, WHITE HOUSE SENIOR ADVISOR UNDER PRESIDENT CLINTON:  Well, Megyn, I think that these are very interesting developments. You're recanting. And that we're talking about, I think that Hillary Clinton obviously stands for a lot more than just being the first woman president.  

KELLY: She's the one that keeps citing that as evidence that she would be change.

SOCARIDES: I think it's an important. I think it's an important thing that many Americans will embrace and you know, most, more women will vote in the upcoming election and she is overwhelmingly favored by women. So, I think that will be to her advantage. I also think President Obama campaigning for her will be to her advantage. Look, he's won the presidency two times. As Dana points out, his approval ratings are very high now. Unemployment is very low.

I mean, we have a lot more work to do. I think Hillary Clinton will build on the two Obama terms and continue to get results for the American people.  I think that people, you know, elections are about the future. But I don't think anybody really when it comes down to it, very many people certainly are going to want the change that Donald Trump is talking about.

KELLY: Women, Dana, he correctly, Richard, correctly points out. They favor Hillary Clinton, and the latest poll Quinnipiac poll today shows that. That she has a 24 point lead with women over Trump. Fifty four to 30. He has a 16 point lead over her when it comes to men, and women tend to vote more than men. So right now the deck is stacked in her favor.

PERINO: That's true. However, I do think one thing that is a problem for Hillary Clinton is that she doesn't do that well with Independent women.  So, I don't know how they break out that poll. But independent women tend to be reluctant to support her. They didn't necessarily come out in great ways to support her in 2008 and so, obviously didn't have a chance to vote for her for president because she wasn't the nominee. Because she lost to Barack Obama. So, that -- for independent women, I think that that is a little bit of a tougher sell for her.  

KELLY: Uh-hm. What do you think of that, Stirewalt? Because Trump, you know, many people say he's not even a Republican, really. You know, I mean, he's, you know, we don't know, he's sort of a -- an amalgamation of different ideologies. That may be very appealing to Independents.

STIREWALT: Sure, that helps him running against the Republican Party. The Republican brand is el stinkerooni. It is 30 percent whatever ad garbage.

SOCARIDES: Those are political terms.  

KELLY: That's right.

STIREWALT: These are very scientific terms. It's good to be running against the Republican Party and the Democratic Party and Washington. And I hate Washington, and I'm going to destroy it, and that's something that's very popular. But for Hillary Clinton, there was a time that Barack Obama would have been really helpful to her. That was when Bernie Sanders was dragging her across the scorching desert as she was making her way across the country. Now she has got it basically locked. And now he decides he wants to come out and be a progressive (INAUDIBLE) for change on her behalf.

PERINO: But that could have come from -- that could have also been a directive or request from the Hillary Clinton campaign.

STIREWALT: Yes, yes, yes, it's true.

PERINO: I don't think that they're making great decisions in Brooklyn.

KELLY: Well, I want to talk about that because -- I want to talk about what's happening in California because it's not good. Bernie is still in this thing. And Bernie possibly winning California is not good. And what's also not good is her -- he's completely ignoring the press at this point. I mean, in addition to these polls that we've been discussing, she's getting hit with new questions about her treatment in the media. We talked about Trump yesterday. You know, he thinks the media are scum to quote him directly. She must think so too, because she hasn't held a press conference in 180 days, Richard.

SOCARIDES: Listen, Megyn --

KELLY: Her campaign was asked about it. Well, just last week they said, what about that event? He refused to take any questions. Her campaign said, there weren't enough reporters on hand.


KELLY: That's true if you don't count The Associated Press, The Washington Post, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, CNN, NBC, ABC, CBS, FOX and many local outlets.

SOCARIDES: Megyn, Hillary Clinton is in the press taking every day taking questions --  

KELLY: Where?

SOCARIDES: -- from reporters.

KELLY: Where?

SOCARIDES: Every day. She's calling into show.

KELLY: Where?


Let me ask you a question. Richard, let me ask you a question. Is there a reporter in the country who Donald Trump has had more of a problem with than yours truly? But he sat with me, he sat with me after all that, didn't he sit down? And she's out there praising me, but where is she?  Why won't she come on THE KELLY FILE. Why won't she take questions at a presser? Why won't she talk to the media?

SOCARIDES: I think it would be very smart of her to come on "The Kelly File."

KELLY: When?

SOCARIDES: And I've told her people that. And I'm hoping she will because I think you would give her a fair shake. And I think that --

KELLY: I would, and I've been saying that for months and where is she?

SOCARIDES: Well, hope springs eternal. You had your troubles with Mr. Trump and now that's behind us, and now I think before this campaign, I'll make a prediction, I think before this campaign is over, that you will interview her. But let me just say this about Bernie Sanders --

KELLY: I hope you're right. I hope you're right. And I don't try to kill her, the same way I didn't try to kill Trump.

SOCARIDES: Okay. Good.

KELLY: I just want to have an interview with her.

SOCARIDES: I think you're going to be fair to her.

KELLY: All right. I want to ask Stirewalt about the polls that we're seeing. This California thing. Well, Bernie could win California.  They're within two points out there now. And his ongoing presence in this race, put aside the fact whether he can actually win this thing outright against her which, you know, most people say no.


KELLY: But his ongoing presence in this race possibly through the end of July to the convention is not good for her in the general election.

STIREWALT: As long as Democrats believed that there is some choice other than Hillary Clinton. As long as they say, well, maybe it will be lobster thermidor? No, no, no, no, no. It's Dinty Moore, that's what you're having. You're going to do this. And that's what it is. As long as they feel that there's some other magic unicorn, Bernie Sanders situation that could take place and carry them on to a cloud of joy, then they're going to withhold that final gas that she needs and if she loses in California, she will still be the nominee but she will close to the question mark instead of what she wants which is an exclamation point.

KELLY: Now, Dana what the Democrats say is first of all, we point out the fact that she's beating Donald Trump in California about 24 points according to the polls. So, they say Trump talks about how many --


But then they also say that her numbers, her poll numbers like this national poll that shows her within, you know, a couple of Trump. Four points leading Trump. They think she's going to skyrocket once Bernie gets out. They think the Democratic Party will, you know, congeal?


STIREWALT: Coalesce. Coalesce.

KELLY: Yes. Thank you.

STIREWALT: Coalesce.

KELLY: And that will be a big Boone to her and she'll run away with it.

PERINO: But there is some evidence that that helped Donald Trump. Right?  So, when he was able to dispatch with his opponents. His poll numbers rose. Because people were like, okay, this is going to be our guy, we're going to get behind him. There's -- would say that that should probably be the same for her. And not to say, I think that President Obama is a net plus for her on the campaign trail.

SOCARIDES: Can I just say Megyn, also, let's remember, that Hillary Clinton has received three million more Democratic votes than Bernie Sanders. So, even if the race in California is close, she has won this fair and square. She has beat him on the numbers, she will be the Democratic nominee. And I think the Democrats will be much more unified than the Republicans. Many more Republicans have not -- do not back Mr. Trump.

KELLY: Right now, the GOP is coalescing behind. It's likely nominee and the Democrats --  

SOCARIDES: Well, I'm not sure.


PERINO: It's pretty good.

I mean, usually we want to see -- Chris can correct me if I'm wrong. But I think it's about you want at least 90 percent of your party to be behind you. And right now, Trump is about at 86 percent.


KELLY: That's a lovely number, and we'll leave it there. Great to see you all.

PERINO: I win.

KELLY: Thank you very much.


KELLY: lobster thermidor. What?

The White House is also facing tough new questions about Chicago. The city run by the President's former chief of staff, and now seeing the worst murder rate in more than two decades. Almost a hundred homicides a month.

Sheriff David Clarke and Mark Fuhrman are here on America's new crime surge.

Plus, Hillary Clinton hits Trump hard on documents released today in the Trump University fraud lawsuit. Governor Mike Huckabee and Stu Stevens are next on how Trump is handling the fallout.


HILLARY CLINTON, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This is just more evidence that Donald Trump himself is a fraud. He's trying to scam America the way he scammed all those people at Trump U.



KELLY: Breaking tonight, Democratic frontrunner Hillary Clinton launching one of her harshest attacks yet on Donald Trump, as new details surface, from the class action fraud lawsuit against the now defunct Trump University. Watch.  


CLINTON: We're learning about another scam. The so-called Trump University. Trump and his employees took advantage of vulnerable Americans. This is just more evidence that Donald Trump himself is a fraud. He is trying to scam America the way he scammed all those people at Trump U.


KELLY: In moments we'll speak with Governor Mike Huckabee and former Romney senior strategist Stu Stevens. But we start with James Rosen live in Washington with these newly released documents from the case. James.

JAMES ROSEN, FOX NEWS CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Megyn, good evening.  Both sides in the class action litigation surrounding Trump University may have reason to rue the release of the hundreds of pages that were unsealed by the court. Trump University, a series of for profit real estate seminars, administered by a staff of 39 people launched in 2005. And as promised that Donald Trump would handpick the instructors. But the unsealed testimony shows he did not.

Although Trump testified in a 2012 deposition that he did personally review many applications for instructors. Meanwhile, a playbook created for the Trump U sales force, coached them on how to market these courses, even to financially distressed people, down even to single mothers with three children who, quote, "May need money for food. Money instructed the playbook is never a reason for not enrolling in Trump University. If they really believe in you and your product they will find the money. You're not doing any favor by letting someone use lack of money as an excuse."

Trump campaign spokeswoman Hope Hicks told Fox News, much of the unsealed evidence demonstrates the high level of satisfaction of those who took the courses. On that front, consider Tarla Makaeff, the plaintiff who brought the first lawsuit, who was seen in these documents enrolling in six different Trump U courses over a six month period. And consistently rating her teachers and overall experiences as amazing and excellent. Likewise the 2014 deposition of Art Cohen, who brought the second major lawsuit included this exchange, "Prior to the earlier lawsuit being filed in 2011, were you unhappy with your experience with the Trump events?" Cohen was asked.

"No, I was not unhappy," he answered. In fact, the presentation that James Harris gave where he upsold me to a $35,000 investment was a very good presentation. In fact, I gave a positive review of that presentation."  While alleging bias on the part of the federal judge who ordered these documents unsealed, Donald Trump is nonetheless vowing to take the Trump University litigation all the way to trial. Such a proceeding is not expected to begin until after Election Day -- Megyn.

KELLY: James Rosen. Thank you.

Joining us now, Governor Mike Huckabee, a FOX News contributor who also ran against Mr. Trump in this very race. And Stuart Stevens, he served as a Mitt Romney campaign strategist. And is author of the upcoming book, "The Innocent Have Nothing To Fear."

Good to see you both. So, Governor Huckabee, let me start with you on this Trump University which, you know, we have done a fair amount of investigating into, because this came up at the third presidential debate.  I know it was going to come up. And I've done a deep dive on this.

Let's just start with the, you know, it was all grand, everyone was perfectly happy and these people signed good reviews. The truth is that the director of operations for Trump University conceded under oath in the lawsuit that at least 32 percent of the students demanded and got refunds from Trump University. At least 32 percent. So there is no possible way that 98 percent of students were happy with Trump University. Why did the Trump camp keep telling us that?

MIKE HUCKABEE, R-FORMER ARKANSAS GOVERNOR: Well, it may be 98 percent of the people who actually went through the course, not those who dropped out.

KELLY: No, no, those who went through --

HUCKABEE: I've seen some of these people --

KELLY: -- and they want their money back.

HUCKABEE: Well, that's right, and they got their money back. And that's part of the thing. Look, what amazes me, is that today Hillary Clinton is going out there and trying to lecture Donald Trump about fraud. This is like Pee-Wee Herman trying to lecture James Bond on the art of masculinity.  Hillary is the queen of fraud. And it has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not Donald Trump would be a great president.

KELLY: Queen of fraud. Congratulations.

HUCKABEE: Queen of frauds. There you go.

KELLY: You know, Stuart --  

HUCKABEE: I'll give you a new term, you can have it.

KELLY: Listen, I practiced law for nine years. Plaintiffs make allegations and defendants deny them. And that is where this case stands right now. But this is a massive lawsuit, it's 5,000 plaintiffs, the class has been certified. It's a fraud action. Summary judgment -- Trump moved for summary judgment saying, we shouldn't have to try this, the judge said, no, you're not getting it, it's going before a jury. So, time and time again, Trump's defense has failed thus far. But he's going to get his day in court, and a jury will decide. You tell me whether politically, this is an issue.

HUCKABEE: I don't think it is.

KELLY: No, that's for Stuart.

HUCKABEE: You think Americans really honestly are sitting around their dinner table tonight and the thing they're talking about is whether or not some people --

KELLY: Not yet.

HUCKABEE: Who openly said they love the course and then decided to sue.  Because they're going to get some money from it.

KELLY: Not yet.


Hold on. This was for Stu.

HUCKABEE: All right.

KELLY: I want to get him in here. I'm sorry. But just to clarify the record again.

HUCKABEE: I'm sorry.

KELLY: Even those people who filled out positive reviews, right? Said that they did so in a situation where the instructor was standing right over them and watching them. They would make them do it while they were watching them. And on top of that, the judge in this case compared those people who signed those positive reviews to the victims of the Bernie Madoff's scheme, saying they basically had been brainwashed into believing this was a good thing for them, before they found out their retirement account was empty and they had nothing to show for it. That's what the judge said. Stu, you tell me whether it's an issue or it's not.

STUART STEVENS, CAMPAIGN STRATEGIST, ROMNEY 2012: Sure, of course. Donald Trump is running basically -- not so much on policies but on his personality, on the essence of Donald Trump. This is someone who says that he'll pick great Supreme Court justices, but also said that he would pick great instructors, personally. He put his own integrity and his own brand and his own believable on the line in this case.

Look, I when Governor Huckabee was governor in Arkansas, he did some tremendously positive things with education. One of this, policies that favor the student not the school. And this would seem to be something that existed primarily to make money. And why is it that Donald Trump if he is worth $10 billion is involved in this kind of tawdry scam. And it is a scam. That is the only word you can call.

KELLY: And just for the record, Trump's got dozens of businesses which are successful and are thriving and are not -- not all of them are mired in litigation. Although a fair amount of them have been sued. But that is how America is in 2016. This is a different matter, Governor, because I mean, you don't get a class certified in every case. Trust me. I used to do class actions, it doesn't happen every day. So, this is going to be a deal and it's a fraud case. They're alleging that he defrauded, that Trump University defrauded single mothers, you heard James report with three children saying, get them, even though they may need their money for food, get them.

Talking about the elderly, the uneducated, how they needed to be separated from their money. This is according to a guy who quit, who was a salesman and he quit saying, "I thought that this was unethical." We were bilking people out of 35 grand a pop, you know, these were cops and they were vets.  And my point is, these are allegations and in a political race, we're going to hear about this, are we not?

HUCKABEE: There have been a lot of allegations thrown at Donald Trump.  And because you are a lawyer, Megyn, you know that when there are thousands of pages of documents, and people stand to make money not only the lawyers but the plaintiffs, we don't know what has happened. One thing I think would be a huge mistake is to try to litigate this in a five minute segment on television because that's not where it's going to be litigated. It's going to be done in court. Donald Trump says he's going to fight it.

I want to point out though, Stuart, with all due respect. Mitt Romney when he was at Bain Capital oversaw 22 percent of the businesses that Bain invested in. They went belly-up. That's what happens in business. That doesn't mean Mitt Romney was a business failure because not all of his ventures went well. And I think it's incredibly disingenuous for anybody to suggest that because not everything Donald Trump ever put his finger too turned to gold. It's somehow that discredits him as a person who has indisputably created some very successful enterprises. Ty Cobb, the greatest hitter in all of baseball had a 366 batting average, that means that more than six out of every 10 times he went to the plate. He wasn't successful.

KELLY: The Governor knows me, he does the math for you me. Thank you for doing that. Because in my head the hamster war running in the wheel and it was like, eh, math. Stuart, do you want to respond to that?

STEVENS: Listen, if Ty Cobb ran, I'd be for him. I think the question here really goes to integrity, and it goes to, what is it that Donald Trump promised that he didn't deliver. And why in all the businesses in the world, one that preyed on those who needed help the most, because they needed to make money and yet the main goal seems to be separating them from what little money they had, it's a very strange choice if someone can go into any business in the world, why would you go into this business, I think it's disturbing and unfortunate. I can't even look at this and say, well, this makes me feel better about Donald Trump.

KELLY: All right, guys, great to see you both.

So, also tonight, David French is the man some conservatives are recruiting to challenge Trump. On Twitter, #French Revolution. But little has been known about David French until now.

Erick Erickson and Jonah Goldberg have the inside story on what may very well be an 11th hour candidate in this presidential race. Next.

And then, Trump supporter Herman Cain will join us on this response from Donald Trump.


TRUMP: The fact is, you can't win as an Independent. Let me tell you.  These people are losers, he's trying to make you -- he's trying to drive you guys a little bit nuts.  


KELLY: Plus, it's perhaps the most shocking teacher sex case since Mary Kay Letourneau. See why this eight grade teacher is making national headlines today.


KELLY: So, the folks behind the never Trump movement yesterday dropped a political bombshell that is continuing to echo tonight. They're actively recruiting this man, David French to challenge Donald Trump by jumping into this race as a third party candidate.

I guess to challenge Hillary too. Mr. French, his accomplishments include a law degree from Harvard, he's worked as a writer for the national Review and his service for the army during the Iraq war. But he is hardly a household name. So, why him? And could he do it?

Joining me now, Jonah Goldberg, senior editor of National Review and Fox News contributor; and Erick Erickson, editor of the Resurgent. Good to see you both.


KELLY: So, Jonah, you've spoken to him for about an hour just today.


KELLY: Is he in on this?

GOLDBERG: It certainly sounds like he's leaning that way. I just want to clarify one thing up front. I've recruited David to do nothing. You know, I'm a huge fan of David. David is one of the most impressive people I know.

KELLY: Bill Kristol thing.

GOLDBERG: Yes. This is Bill Kristol -- I found out about this about two hours before everybody else. And I was as shocked as everybody else. At the same time I think David French is an amazing impressive guy. A man of real character, and, you know, and I would vote for him in a heartbeat. Whether or not this is a good idea for him or for conservatives, we kind of wait and need to hear what he has to say.

KELLY: Why would be it a good idea for conservatives?

GOLDBERG: Well, one of the things that David was clear about with me is, he doesn't want to do that he is just going to be a Ralph Nader type from 2000, if he runs, he wants to run to win. And to be actually be president of the United States and not just simply to hand an election over to Hillary Clinton. And there are a lot of things on the checklist that are required to do that.


GOLDBERG: It is a very difficult task to do that and he recognizes that.

KELLY: Isn't the best thing at this point, Erick, and you are part of the never trump movement, to stymie the election to the point where it goes to the House of Representatives. I mean, is it realistic for somebody like David French, as talented as he is, to win outright, has to do so many things to get on the ballots and then he had to raise a billion dollars.

ERICK ERICKSON, THE RESURGENT EDITOR: Yes, I mean, it would cost $250 million minimum to do ballot access challenges around the country. And you've already missed the Texas deadline so you'd have to go to court to get that reopen. You could potentially throw this to the House.

But the problem with that is, if you start in 2012 and just take the states Romney won, and David is able to take those states away. Well, Hillary still gets over 300 electoral votes, so you got to go into her territory and pick all Iowa, in Florida, in Florida, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Wisconsin which is tough.

So, ballot access challenges and whatnot, and you know, I'm kind of wavering on maybe it would be worth conservatives considering just if we believe Donald Trump is going to lose anyway. Letting lose and not have a spoiler in there who is going to be a scapegoat. But at the same time that...


KELLY: Because you feel like it would be cleaner loss. You feel like he won't be able to say, oh, it's because of that David French guy.

ERICKSON: Yes, exactly. Kind of like Al Gore in 2000 was able to, and Ralph Nader, and the democrats never had to re-assess and got their butt beat again with John Kerry in 2004.

That said though, if David was able to get on the ballot in Georgia where I am, I'd gladly support him. You know, more than half of the people supporting trump and Hillary are supporting them because they don't like the other guy.

The cool thing with David is a 100 percent of his supporters actually would like him

KELLY: That's the thing, Jonah. It's that, you know, a lot of republicans now are saying we're going to vote for Trump, even though if we don't love him, because we don't -- we don't want to give this election to Hillary Clinton.

But there are never Trumpers who say, I don't care. My conscience will not allow me to vote for Donald Trump.

GOLDBERG: Well, that's basically the camp I'm in. You know, Alexander Hamilton said this, you know, 200 years ago, he said, "If you're going to have an enemy in government, better it be the enemy of the other party, because at least that way you won't have to take ownership of them."

Now that said, I'm also a never Hillary person. I'm never going to vote for Hillary Clinton either. My decision is that these are essentially two, pardon my language, crap sandwiches and I don't want to eat either one.



GOLDBERG: And we're going to mess that we're in. And so, you know, part of David's rationale is, they have polling that shows that just a John Doe. If actually voters are given a choice, a trump/Clinton/John Doe. John Doe starts with about 10 or 12 percent of the electorate.


GOLDBERG: That is enough to get into debates. It helps that he is not a politician. If you polled for congressman John Doe or congressman -- or senator John Doe, the number almost drops in half. The fact that he has a low name I.D. and he's actually a real human being might be an advantage.

KELLY: Logistically, Erick, how could it happen? You know, given what you just outlined?

ERICKSON: Well, there would have to be a lot of money raised upfront. You've ballot access deadlines coming up in Ohio and several other places, very soon. So he'd have to start petition drives.

Now luckily in some places, federal judges have reduced the bar. For example, where I am in Georgia, the bar was 100,000 signatures. The judge just ruled you're going to only need to I think 5 to 7,000 signatures, but you still have to raise money, hire staff, get the signatures to on the ballot.

It's a very daunting task. But my understanding is David does has a good bit of access to donors who are willing to chip in and getting on the ballot.

KELLY: Married, father of three, veteran, highly intelligent, deeply religious, Harvard law School, major in the U.S. Army Reserve, Bronze Star for Valor, service in Iraq. Pretty impressive. Great to see you both, guys.

ERICKSON: Great to see you.

GOLDBERG: Thank you.

KELLY: Joining me now with reaction, Herman Cain. Former GOP presidential candidate, Fox news contributor and author of "The Right Problems."

All right. So, Herman, good to see you. So, you hear the argument, they don't care. Like they do not care if it hands the election to Hillary Clinton, on principle, they can't get behind Trump. And this maybe their guy. Do you think David French could turn into a spoiler in this race?

HERMAN CAIN, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: No, I agree with Frank Luntz who said this on Fox News this morning. David French, with all due respect is irrelevant. You can find anybody with an impressive background but it's irrelevant.

Now the thing about your two previous guests, they gave you all the reasons why this dog won't hunt, time, ballot access, raising money, all they did was identify all the negatives as to why this would be a long, long, longshot.

They suffer from what I call, "CDS," conservative denial syndrome and that's why they keep trying to come up with something that's going to change the whole political landscape. It's not going to happen, Megyn. They are in severe denial along with all of the other people.


KELLY: But if this is going to gets on a ballot in just a few of these states. Even if he doesn't get on all 59 states, he could be a spoiler in some key races.

CAIN: He could be a spoiler in some key races but he is not going to be a spoiler for all of the people that are voicing their support for Donald Trump.

And here's the other thing I don't believe, and I totally reject. All of these polls that keep saying Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton are tied. Hillary may be leading in some areas, we have a long way to go before November.

I don't think those are going to stand up. Just like you had polls back in the summer of 2015 saying Donald Trump would not win certain primaries. Donald Trump would not get in them.


KELLY: Trump would get 6 percent in June of '15, 6.

CAIN: Yes. They said he wouldn't get to 1,237. He's already exceeded that as the presumptive nominee. I don't believe these polls. Now, the whole David French third party thing, I think will help to elect Hillary Clinton if she can get past a lot of the other challenges that she has.

I don't buy, and I think that the never Trump people are basically in severe denial as to what the main objective ought to be, which is to defeat Hillary Clinton. They're in denial.

KELLY: Herman Cain is rejecting hash tag French revolution. It is official, you can take it to the bank. Mr. Cain, always a pleasure, sir.

CAIN: There's no question that I am.

KELLY: Great to see you.

CAIN: Thanks.

KELLY: So, the City of Chicago, just reached a very violent and dark milestone.

And up next, detective Mark Fuhrman and Sheriff David Clarke joins us on what's behind the bloody crime surge in some of America's biggest cities. Does it have to do with what we've seen when it comes? That's next.



JAMES COMEY, FBI DIRECTOR: Because something deeply disturbing is happening in places across America. Far more people are being killed in some of America's cities than in many years. And let's be clear, far more people of color are being killed in American cities this year, and it's not the cops doing the killing.

Part of the explanation is a chill wind that is blown through law enforcement over the last year. And that wind is surely changing behavior.

In today's YouTube world, our officers reluctant to get out of their cars and do the work that controls violent crime.


KELLY: That was the FBI director, James Comey, last fall talking about a surge of violence in some of America's biggest cities. And just a couple of weeks ago, he doubled down on that again. His concern that cops may be reluctant to do their jobs in today's day and age.

Now the chill he spoke of maybe playing out in devastating fashion on the streets of President Obama's hometown of Chicago, a town by adoption. A city run by Mr. Obama's first chief of staff, Rahm Emanuel, a city where there were more than 400 shootings just last month.

Think about that. Mark Fuhrman is a former LAPD homicide detective and a Fox News contributor; Sheriff David Clarke is Milwaukee County sheriff. Great to see you both. Four hundred shootings.

Let me start with you on that, Sheriff Clarke. Just last month put that number in perspective for us.

DAVID CLARKE, MILWAUKEE COUNTY SHERIFF: You can't, and along with that, 66 people dead. I'm trying to figure out why state of emergency hasn't been declared in part of city of Chicago why there's no curfew in place from 6 p.m. to 6 a.m.

The first thing they need to do is stem the violence at nighttime. Somehow they have to stop the bleeding, but Rahm Emanuel seems incapable of doing this. I just to know how many more black people have to be shot and killed, like director Comey said before somebody thinks that this is an emergency.

KELLY: Mark, do you think this is part of the viral video effect as the director suggested?

MARK FUHRMAN, FORMER LAPD DETECTIVE: Well, I think there's probably several reasons, one is the technology that every person has on the street, but this is kind of a self-induced wound that Chicago has created. This has been going on for 20, 20 years, maybe 20 years plus.

To not go in or not support officers with task force type units to go in and attack these gang members. And let's be clear about this. Most of these are gang-related homicides, which makes it incredibly easy to target who the suspects are, where they live, where they geographically are.

And like Sheriff Clarke said, you initiate a curfew for one thing, the most important thing, is you take the targets off the street. If you take the targets off the corners they can't be shot by a drive by and this is how you approach gang activity.

You keep them up balance, you're very aggressive and you need the support of leadership like Sheriff Clarke. And unfortunately, Chicago that's non- existent.

KELLY: Sheriff, do you think this is -- I mean, is this a gang issue or is this a giving up on gang issue? Or is this a cops are reluctant to do what they're supposed to do because they think they're going to go to jail if they do it issue?

CLARKE: Well, certainly those things. But I also think that it is a culturally dysfunctional black underclass in the city of Chicago that's causing this violence. Look, the folks down in Chicago Police Department, I'm talking about the administrators not the cops, the police department has been demoralized by Rahm -- under Rahm Emanuel's leadership.

They're not afraid to do their jobs, they're afraid of the United States Department of Justice Civil Rights division.

Instead of having lawyers from the Civil Right division down there combing through things, looking to snag some poor Chicago police officer for some transgression, they ought to have criminal prosecutors down there, snapping up these gang members that involved 1400 that according to the superintendent have been identified.

Get them off the street, many of them have warrants, do warrant sweeps, many of them are on paper, on probation, snap them up, start to question and find out all of the actors, start doing home searches under the law which you can do for people on probation and parole.

And get these individuals off the street. but instead, we have lawyers from the Civil Rights division investigating the cops, this whole thing in Chicago is upside down, it is ass backwards.

KELLY: Mark, I need a quick answer on this but do you think that there were -- the cops have been demeaned by members of the public?

FUHRMAN: Absolutely. They've been demeaned and they're afraid to actually go out and do the job they really want to do, and aggressively be cops because the leadership directly in the Ivy tower is not going to support them when they've got attorneys from the Civil Rights division waiting to pounce on them for anything that they do that might even look like it might be a violation of the law.

KELLY: The numbers are just so dark. Deadliest May in 21 years, 69 people shot over the weekend. And on and on it goes.

CLARKE: At some point, Megyn, the governor is going to have to get involved. The governor is going to have to step in. Because like I said, Rahm Emanuel is proving incapable of being able to get around his hands around this thing.

KELLY: People are being just massacred. It's good to see you both. Thank you.

Up next, teacher sex scandals have sadly become so commonplace they barely make news anymore at least until this woman's story came along. We'll have that for you right after the break.


KELLY: An eighth grade English teacher turned herself into authorities after a month long sexual relationship with a 13-year-old. Trace Gallagher has the report. Trace?

TRACE GALLAGHER, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Megyn, the court documents in this case are filled with surprises including the teacher telling police the boy's parents did not object to the relationship and were supportive and excited about her pregnancy.

Twenty-year-old Alexandria Vera says when she met the boy during summer school, he was mean to her then started flirting with her but she rebuffed him. Later she agreed to hang out and shortly thereafter began having sex with him almost every day.

The teacher says the parents would even allow him to stay with her at night, and apparently they did not keep their relationship a secret at school.

Students say they would see the boy touch her inappropriately. The teacher says she was planning to have the baby until child protective services unexpectedly showed up at school and she got nervous and had an abortion. She is now free on $100,000 bond. Megyn?

KELLY: Oh my goodness. Trace, thank you. We'll be right back. Don't go away.


KELLY: What do you think? You think what's happening in Chicago is a result of that viral video effect? As FBI director Comey suggested, he didn't say Chicago specifically, but he said we're seeing it everywhere.

Go to On twitter @megynkelly. Let me know what you think. Thanks so much.

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