Misplaced outrage over zoo's decision to kill gorilla?

The debate continues on 'The Five'


This is a rush transcript from "The Five," May 31, 2016. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

ERIC BOLLING, CO-HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Eric Bolling along
with Kimberly Guilfoyle, Juan Williams, Dana Perino and Greg Gutfeld, and
this right here is "The Five" in New York City. And this is "The Five"
again, it's 5 o'clock.

New developments on the story everyone was talking about over the Memorial
Day weekend, the fatal shooting of a rare gorilla at the Cincinnati Zoo
after a 4-year-old fell into its enclosure. The zoo is standing by its
decision to kill the 450-pound animal named Harambe, in order to protect
the little boy.


THANE MAYNARD, CINCINNATI ZOO DIRECTOR: Naturally, we did not take the
shooting of Harambe lightly, but that child's life was in danger. And
people who questioned that who are Monday morning quarterbacks or second
guessers don't understand that you can't take a risk with a silverback
gorilla. The barrier is adequate and we all need to work to make sure their
families and their kids are safe, whether you are visiting a zoo or you are
visiting a shopping mall. Looking back, we will make the same decision.


BOLLING: Now, many animal activists are up in arms, but a lot of others are
passing the blame on the child's mother for not preventing her child from
climbing into that exhibit. The family issued this statement, quote, "We
are thankful to the Lord that our child is safe. He is home and doing just
fine. We extend our heartfelt thanks for the quick action by the Cincinnati
Zoo staff. We know that this was a very difficult decision for them and
that they are grieving the loss of their gorilla. We hope that you will
respect our privacy at this time." Now two well-known animal experts have
mixed reactions to the zoo incident. Take a listen.


JACK HANNA, ZOOKEEPER: I agree 1,000 percent they make the correct
decision. As a matter of fact, it's a millisecond decision. They cannot
tranquilize it. It takes 5 to 10 minutes. All of us are sorry. We, we all
at the zoo were a heartfelt for this whole thing. But thank goodness a
human being is alive today because of the decisions the Cincinnati Zoo

JEFF CORWIN, CONSERVATIONIST: The zoo is not your babysitter. Take a break
from the cell phone and the selfie stick and the texting. Connect with your
children. Be responsible for your children. I don't think this happened in
seconds or minutes. I think this took time for this kid, this little boy to
find himself in that situation. And ultimately, it's the gorilla that's
paid that price.


BOLLING: All right Greg, so what do stand -- we get all our thoughts on
one. Who is responsible, parents, zoo -- gorilla?

GREG GUTFELD, CO-HOST: They should have killed the gorilla and
the parents with kindness. I feel bad for them. Because look, if you have a
choice between people hating you on Twitter or your child surviving, I can,
I will take the people hating me on Twitter and going home with my child.
What bothers me is, all these celebrities and all these people on Twitter,
it's a symptom of fake caring. Since this happened, there have been eight
people killed and 57 shot -- others injured in Chicago since this happened
over Memorial Day weekend.


GUTFELD: These people are not out protesting that, because it's easier to
protest an animal that dies than it is to protest people. So these are
people on Twitter who don't even think about radical Islamic misog (ph) and
you're a homophobia or gays being thrown up out of buildings. They find
their rage here because it requires absolutely no capital to get mad about
this. It's easy and requires no responsibility on your part.

BOLLING: On that KG, I guarantee why --


BOLLING: Can't guarantee, but I bet if that kid had been hurt. Now I know
that ...


BOLLING: ... people say that the gorilla didn't look like he was going to
hurt the kid or he would have earlier.

GUILFOYLE: Oh my, God.

BOLLING: They had, had he hurt the kid, there would be lawsuits up the you
know what at the zoo --


BOLLING: Zookeeper and anyone else who didn't shoot the gorilla.

GUILFOYLE: OK. You know what the miracle was, and they did show, you know,
compassion and they did a special signal to lure the two female gorillas
out. That was like 10 minutes fast before they even been able to rescue
this child. Think about that. That's the miracle that he wasn't killed
during that time. He already sustain a head injury during the fall when he
went down into the demote area, and you saw the gorilla thrashing around,
like Jack Hanna and he said, he can -- the gorilla can literally -- this
isn't like a fake King Kong movie, this is the real deal. It can squeeze
that poor child's head and body and crush literally the bones inside. What
is wrong with everyone? It's horrible, horrible that the gorilla had to
die. By the way, not happy with the parents, they should have been
obviously more closely supervising, you know, their child because the child
kept saying, "I want to go in the water with the gorilla." There was your
first, you know, clue. So a very bad situation, you know, obviously this is
a species that people want to protect, you know. And there's also question
on to whether, like he said Dana, it should be there to begin with versus,
you know, in the wild.

BOLLING: So, do you want to talk about that --

DANA PERINO, CO-HOST: Well, I'm not against --

BOLLING: Against for the zoo?

PERINO: I'm not against animals in captivity for zoo logical purposes and
study ...


PERINO: Because I think that people get a lot out of going out to zoos,
obviously it was packed there the zoos are all over the world. Some are run
very well, the Cincinnati Zoo being one of them. And gorillas are a
protected species then they should be, but there are also -- it was 400-
pounds and it -- Grey Stafford who is a zoologist in Arizona, you guys
might know he's been on Fox before. Talking to him and he said that you
can't tranquilize an animal like this, because it makes you more agitated
at first. So then, I think that they did take the right action. I'm also
surprised at the judgment against other parents, because I -- obviously, we
don't have video of how he got into the enclosure and what was happening
right beforehand, but we all know that in a split-second things can happen.


PERINO: Especially if a kid is three or four years old.


PERINO: Or if you are, you know, like walking across the street and seeing
somebody getting hit by a car because they are not paying attention. Stuff
happens to humans. I think that they made the right decision. And it's too
bad that people sit on their couch, fomenting their anger. I think your
point about Chicago is a very good one.


GUTFELD: Thank you.

BOLLING: Juan, can I show this and I agree with that everything that's been
said here, but there is -- I'll play a little devil's advocate here. What
about enclosures in zoos that enable -- that are open enough for a child to
find its way into a 450-pound gorilla.

JUAN WILLIAMS, CO-HOST: Well, I think is -- what I read it was a
38-year-old (inaudible), that thing has been there 38 years. Obviously,
this is the first time anything like this ever happened.

GUILFOYLE: Yeah, excellent (inaudible).

WILLIAMS: And it was just inspected, like less than a year ago, no problem
according to the inspection. So, you know, to me, I don't understand a lot
of things with the glue -- the zoo enclosures. Like I know in Washington,
sometimes I'm amazed you see parents prop their little kids up on the rail
to take a picture.

PERINO: Right.

WILLIAMS: Or hold the kid over the rail, like you know that Michael Jackson
famous picture in the hotel.


WILLIAMS: And I think why --


WILLIAMS: Why you're doing that? You know is to me it's lunacy, but parents
do and I think there's a sense that oh, nothing is going to happen, like
the kid really can't get in. Well, this kid not only got over the fence --
the railing, he then get through a fence and then he falls down. I mean,
where the odds of that? But I, I just, you know, I can't get away from the
idea that the zoo made the right decision. I don't think there was any
other decision to be made. It's human life versus animal life. And I
understand from people, because I have friends who are strong animal
activists, but I don't, I just, I don't think that a dog is a human. I
don't think a gorilla is a human. I understand an endangered species, but
you know, I think you got to make a call Jack Hanna. By the way, who used
to be at the Cincinnati Zoo ...


WILLIAMS: ... said the same thing. You know, you -- there's no going back.
There's no getting a human life back.

BOLLING: All right let's -- and agreed. I think we're all in agreement
here. Let's be a little provocative here.

GUTFELD: All right.

BOLLING: A couple of weeks ago, a guy took off the -- obviously, he was
disturbed, took off his clothes and got into the cage with the tigers. They
had to kill two or three tigers -- different story?

GUTFELD: I don't know. I just, I think --

WILLIAMS: Why did he do that?

BOLLING: For whatever reason, Juan. He probably --

GUTFELD: I think that he wanted, because he was wanted -- it was suicide by
a tiger.

WILLIAMS: Oh, he wants to die.


BOLLING: But so, do you take down the tigers?

GUILFOYLE: He probably wanted an updated profile picture on Facebook. You
saw the guys who take pictures of lions and tigers ...


GUILFOYLE: ... trying to get women. It's terrible.

GUTFELD: I just think, you know, it's -- what you are presented with is a
choice between two evils, and you have to choose the lesser evil -- much
like an election. But you know, what I -- would I -- it will drive me
crazy. Why does it feel so good for people to blame other people? When you
go -- it's why you should always stay off Twitter after something happens,
because all it is ...


GUTFELD: ... is a bunch of people who really -- it's an emotional response
that feels really good to go those idiots, they should go to jail,
whatever, but they don't stop to think, what if that was my kid? What if
that was my kid?

PERINO: A friend of mine, Matthew Scully, he was a speechwriter -- he's a
speechwriter, but of course in the Bush administration in the campaign, and
he is a strong animal activist and he wrote a book called "Dominion." And
it was -- I think, I might not saying that I didn't talk to him, so I don't
know what he would have thought about this situation. He's also a father.
So I assuming he would agree that this with the right decision. But it's a
really interesting book that talks about the most intelligent order of the
species, being the humans, have dominion over these animals and we have
responsibility to them. And to me, a zoo is meant for study, and hopefully
to help them back in their natural habitat, so the gorilla in Africa or
India. I don't know what the tigers if they were from India, I assuming so.
There is a certain level of care that we have to express for these animals.
So the guy that gets into the tiger exhibit, who should know better, maybe
he was -- but I don't know the whole story. Like maybe he had mentally
health issues or something.

GUTFELD: I think he was mentally ill.


PERINO: Then I guess you take the tiger.

BOLLING: Yeah, yeah, I mean --


BOLLING: You do, but you have to -- I don't know, maybe that's when of
those when you tranquilize and hope the tranquilizer works for, because I
believe it disappear in time.

WILLIAMS: You know what, what interest me about this story, is two things,
one is PETA says, we shouldn't have zoos.

PERINO: Right.

WILLIAMS: That animals are complex and they have great needs, and we can't
satisfy the needs, and we -- they are basically there for our voyeuristic
instincts, which is we, with these animals, but the animals want to be in
the wild. They want to be where they naturally are. We wouldn't like being
confine, right?

GUTFELD: But that's an error on your part.

WILLIAMS: Tell me.

GUTFELD: Because you are here, you actually transferring human emotion to
an animal. You saying, I wouldn't want to be in a cage.

WILLIAMS: No, I wouldn't.

BOLLING: Can I also --

GUILFOYLE: We're confined at this table. I'm tied in. Otherwise I'll be at
walking around.

GUTFELD: Are you comparing yourself to --

BOLLING: Are (inaudible) are wrong about this?

GUILFOYLE: Effective (inaudible)?



WILLIAMS: You think PETA is wrong.

BOLLING: I believe PETA completely wrong on this because ...

WILLIAMS: Tell me why, tell me why.

BOLLING: ... the zoo portion of the business actually generates a profit,
so that the --

WILLIAMS: Yeah, that's the argument.

BOLLING: That the other side, the --

WILLIAMS: But you know the problem with that one, is that you talk to like
these people who take part in canned hunts, you know, where they have
animals confined --


WILLIAMS: And they shoot them. And so, but we give money back to the, take
care of the family.

BOLLING: Or in some people say they conserve the animals.

PERINO: And the zoo, and zoo and circuses are different.

WILLIAMS: Well, tell me what do you think?

PERINO: Like zoos, because zoos I think for study, and circus is for our
entertainment and exploitation of animals.

BOLLING: Yeah, but mostly zoos are breeding these animals. They've been
species, the key of the species continue. And they are also --

WILLIAMS: I hope. Yeah.

BOLLING: Finding disease that --

PERINO: Like little pandas.

BOLLING: That keeps -- the panda, right.

WILLIAMS: Like pandas.

BOLLING: The keeps on --

WILLIAMS: Well, yeah, the pandas.

PERINO: Also your favorite.

WILLIAMS: They are my favorite.

BOLLING: But the zoo part is the one that raises the money, so that he can
get --

WILLIAMS: Well, let me just one last thought on this, Eric.

GUILFOYLE: They gonna ask for that kid on one of those things, we have the
leash with the --


WILLIAMS: Because you have a kid.

PERINO: I had that.

WILLIAMS: Oh yeah, they have kids

GUTFELD: You want to leash?


PERINO: I was on the leash.

GUTFELD: No wonder why you like dogs.


BOLLING: I would tell you, you are right about Twitter, thought. These
parents have been getting death threats ...

WILLIAMS: Oh, terrible.

BOLLING: ... destroyed on social media.

WILLIAMS: Terrible. So the last that I had on this was, there were 7,000
people at the zoo when this happen. The zoo was packed, right?


WILLIAMS: It was packed. The other thing is that this weekend there is no
precise, probably this weekend, no place that people weren't talking about
this story.

BOLLING: Yeah, right.

WILLIAMS: And then it quickly got into what Greg was saying about the
parents and one of the parents had a criminal record.


WILLIAMS: What kind of parents are these.

GUILFOYLE: Who told you?

WILLIAMS: Are they married? I'm like, wow, they did -- the parents took a
rough beating here.

BOLLING: All right. And we got to go, they're teasing us. All right, ahead,
is Hillary Clinton afraid she's going to lose California to Bernie Sanders
next week? We're going to take a hard long look at the democrat race for
president, next.


PERINO: California's delegate rich primary is just one week away with
Bernie Sanders right on her tail. Hillary Clinton knows she can't afford
lose it. She's up ended her campaign schedule, cancelling an event in New
Jersey on Thursday to get out to California, sooner than planned. Sanders
taunted his rival over the weekend.



Secretary Clinton -- she's getting very nervous lately.


SANDERS: And I, I don't want to -- I don't want to add to her anxiety. So
if you promise not to tell her, we're going to win here in California on
June 7th.



PERINO: Hillary did pick up a big endorsement today from California's
democratic Governor Jerry Brown, he says he is deeply impressed with how
well Sanders has done, but Clinton will be prepared to lead our country on
day one. That's his words, not mine. Kimberly, what is -- does Governor
Brown endorsement help her there?

GUILFOYLE: Yes. Well, I mean, she's really worried about this, and her
supporters, her inner circle, all of the above. And that's why she's
bringing out any help she can for example, Jerry Brown, for example, Gavin
Newsom. Anyone she has liked democratic --

GUTFELD: Who's that guy?

GUILFOYLE: I heard it before.


GUILFOYLE: To bring him in, to say ...

PERINO: Very handsome.

GUILFOYLE: ... hey, come support me. Let's see. This is the party. Let's
unite. So that goes to show you that they are very concerned about this. I
mean, how she going to spin it if she doesn't win California? I mean, it's
a problem. It really is, because this is a person that's supposed to be the
nominee of the Democratic Party.


GUILFOYLE: About the person that they are seeing their best shot for

PERINO: But Eric, isn't it, am I right she only needs about 8 percent of
the delegates or --

BOLLING: Yeah, seven --

PERINO: Over the top?

BOLLING: Yeah. California alone is 582 delegates. She needs 77 a lot.
There's New Jersey, she's leading by a handful of points. I think, look --

GUILFOYLE: But she should be crushing it and she's not.

BOLLING: Exactly. And that's what this Bernie Sanders is staying until the
end. He's showing that she should have been crushing him and she can't even
crush a socialist. Look, she's going to get the nomination. The super
delegates that she has, we all have to get up, walk over to Bernie Sanders
and say we're with you now. But don't forget what a super delegate is,
these are, these are people who are already mayors, they are sheriffs, they
are in politics already. They have been promised a bill of goods. They have
been promise deals that when she becomes the nominee, they will get. The
Democratic Party will make sure that they remain sheriff, mayors, city
councilmen and things like that. They are not going to leave her,
especially since she's got more votes than Bernie Sanders, that I mean, at
the end of the day, he, she still has -- sorry Greg. She still has a couple
more million votes than he is.

PERINO: Bernie threw a little e-mail at the super delegates. Take a listen
to this, Juan.


SANDERS: The inspector general just came out with a report. It was not a
good report for Secretary Clinton. That is something that the American
people, democrats and delegates are going to have to take a hard look at
it. I mean, everybody in America is keeping it in mind, and certainly the
super delegates are.


PERINO: So Juan, that's a little bit late for him to be bringing this up,
but is it a last-ditch effort by Bernie?

WILLIAMS: Well, it's -- it wouldn't work with his supporters who really
don't care about it and keeps thinking about, I think it was Senator
Feinstein of California who said, you know, enough with the e-mails, but
it's hotter than ever. And I think this is Bernie's, Bernie's last-ditch
appeal to the super delegates to say, "so what happens if she is nominated
and then she gets indicted or something happens and she has to go to jail."
Hey, super delegates stop, think about it. And I think --

GUILFOYLE: She's not a prudent choice like that, is what he's trying to

WILLIAMS: Right. That in fact, I mean, you could, super delegates could be
putting the democratic brand at risk with Hillary Clinton. That's his
appeal. And one other thing to say on this is, if you want to understand
what's going on inside the Clinton camp right now, the idea that they have
just bought a million dollars in ads in California, that reverses their
trend in the recent races where they haven't been spending money because
they want to focus on Trump, but not only have they bought a million
dollars in ads, you see the unions, it's clearly in the Clinton camp now
buying ads in California.

PERINO: She's now going to try to put it away. He's right, Senator Dianne
Feinstein, Greg, said that "enough is enough" on Hillary's e-mails. "Let's
just move on and focus on things that are important, important problems
facing this nation." But it's only enough for them if it has to do -- if it
works in their favor to be enough.

GUTFELD: Yeah. This is wishful thinking. They have been hoping this thing
would go away and it's not. Look, I want Hillary to be president because I
want Bill to be first dog, but it's not going to happen until she gets this
behind her.

GUILFOYLE: Oh my, God.

GUTFELD: If she doesn't get rid of this issue before she gets the
convention, it's like showing up to your own wedding, you know, with some
guy you just met off the street. She's got -- she's gonna - you can't.
She's got to be a political pinata form the convention to the debates from
Trump. She's got the momentum right now of Michael Moore and quicksand,
because she can't get around this.

PERINO: How about --

GUTFELD: If she has to.

PERINO: I'm glad you brought the timing. Kimberly ...

GUILFOYLE: I like that.

PERINO: ... let me ask you something, so --

GUILFOYLE: You can't get around it -- yeah.

PERINO: Cheryl Mills, she was the chief of staff for Hillary Clinton.


PERINO: She did an interview with the Justice Department, and the
transcript was released today. And there were a lot of instances where her
lawyers objected and said she shouldn't answer that. The thing about the
timing is she's finished her interview, but I was looking at the datelines,
the last interview schedule is for June 28th. So I don't think this is
going to be done before the convention.


PERINO: Right?

GUILFOYLE: Right. Well --

PERINO: It would take too long for the Justice Department to get through
all of that.

GUILFOYLE: To get through it, but let's see. Let's see what determinations
they have made thus far, but yeah, this has been a little bit of the slow
walk, but as they say, you know, justice delayed is not justice denied.
Let's see what happens, but is it going to be in time. And I -- that's
where it circles back to what Bernie Sanders is saying which is, "Hey, this
is not necessary a prudent choice. This is not the safe bed for the
Democratic Party. You are playing Russian roulette with the future, the
Democratic Party, because there is a major investigation going on right
now. The people seem they're a little bit like to the anesthetized, to do
not like really, fully understanding the significance of this, especially
with the findings of the IG report. I mean, Come on, this is your best
choice, I mean, hello? You have Joe Biden, you know. And you have all these
people supporting Bernie Sanders and this is what you are running all the
way to the bank with. I don't know.


GUILFOYLE: That check is going to bounce.

WILLIAMS: Well, I just say, that they, you know, what strikes me is what
-- I think you said earlier which is, look, she's got most of the votes.
Most democrats have voted for Hillary Clinton despite what the critics say,
and we've got Puerto Rico and the U.S. Virgin Islands on Sunday. She's
going to get most of the way to the 70 votes --


WILLIAMS: Or 70 delegates that she needs.


WILLIAMS: She can just about lock it up.

BOLLING: Or it's more interesting --

WILLIAMS: That's even before California.

BOLLING: If, and on next Tuesday, a week from today where California goes.


BOLLING: Where New Jersey goes, too. And New Jersey closes before

WILLIAMS: Yes. So she's gonna have --

BOLLING: You could be locked up in New Jersey before California --


BOLLING: Can I just add something Greg --

PERINO: Yeah, sure.

BOLLING: Bernie Sanders has five of the 15 seats that to write the democrat
platform at the convention.

GUILFOYLE: It's a lot.

BOLLING: He's asking for two more. He's joining the Barney Frank and other
thrown up for whatever reason. So he's looking for up to seven seats,
almost half the platform. Do you know that this the greatest gift to
republicans in the history of politics. If you get Bernie Sanders with five
or seven people representing ...


BOLLING: ... socialism on the democrat platform, Donald Trump is going to
say, look, half of the democrat platform is socialist. Look what's going on
with Venezuela. Roll some pictures who have been, they are out of food,
they're out of gas, out of everything.

GUILFOYLE: No milk, no beer.

PERINO: Can you imagine trying to get Barney Frank out of that seat?

WILLIAMS: Yeah, that's why we're --

GUILFOYLE: He's going to hold on --

WILLIAMS: It's ridiculous. But you know --


WILLIAMS: That shows you the power ...

GUILFOYLE: He was riding a ferry for free.

WILLIAMS: Sanders --

BOLLING: It's insane.

GUILFOYLE: You know about the story?

WILLIAMS: They are trying to placate Sanders to let him have additional
delegates. At some point, though, it becomes a liability. Although I know
you've been a big Sanders booster.

BOLLING: No, no, but a socialist having --


WILLIAMS: I'm gonna say --

BOLLING: At least to become a third who happened to say --

WILLIAMS: Now, you changed my friend.

PERINO: We have to --


PERINO: We have to tease. Trump was getting combative today at a press
conference to straighten out the controversy over his pledge money to vet.
You're going to see that and how veterans responded to this news, that's


GUILFOYLE: Reporters questioning Donald Trump's commitment to our nation's
veterans got a fiery response from the presumptive GOP nominee today. Trump
has a news conference earlier to prove he donated the $6 million to
veteran's charities. He said that he would have a few months ago.


DONALD TRUMP, 2016 PRESUMPTIVE GOP NOMINEE: I have raised a tremendous
amount of money for the vet, almost $6 million and money is going to come
in, I believe over the next little while too. But I have raised almost $6
million. All of the money has been paid out. I have been thanked by so many
veterans groups throughout the United States. Outside, you have a few
people that picketing, that sent there by Hillary Clinton, and they are
picketing that the money wasn't sent. The money has all been sent. On
behalf of the vets, the press should be ashamed of themselves. I have never
received such bad publicity for doing such a good job.


GUILFOYLE: Many vets are behind Trump, but a small group of them protested
outside Trump tower to push back.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What Donald Trump doesn't understand is that he cannot
buy the votes of veterans of this country. No matter how much he donates,
he still is not standing for the values that veterans stand for here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Donald Trump accused all of us of being here because of
Hillary Clinton. One thing I want to make very clear, I'm one of the main
organizers of this action, that is unequivocally false. Donald Trump is
trying to discredit veterans because we're not being convenient props in
his narrative of bigotry and of hate.


GUILFOYLE: OK, so the money was raised and he went -- what we called it
(inaudible) like can offer proof to say, in fact, that I thought he's going
to do this and in fact, I have. So here's the evidence to put it forward.
So Eric, there's obviously still a tremendous amount of upset within the
veterans community, a grievance because of the comments that were made
about Senator John McCain and about prisoners of war, but he had the right
in everything this weekend with rolling thunder as well, to try to --

BOLLING: Yeah, and I'm fairly certain that last guy we saw right here, if
his last name is (inaudible), I'm not sure. Producers, let me know if that
is. But there's a guy named (inaudible) who says that the group that was
protesting Trump's explaining the $5.6 million today was an organic group.
They said they got together on the internet. Then they were pressed by the
Daily Beast or (inaudible) one of them, send the last thing we called the
Hillary Clinton campaign to get some names of other people who maybe light-
minded. They were pressed a second time, it turns out it was a Hilary
campaign that set up this group. They organized the whole group to protest
trump. So that, do you take that for what, for what you will? Bottom line,
the guy who raised $5.6 million and the vets received $5.6 million.

I was a little disturbed by my colleagues, our colleagues out there, giving
him a hard time on the timing of when he raised it, when he doled it out
and when he -- when he, quote unquote, vetted these groups.

A lot of the times you can't just send people money. You have to make sure
that they are IRS-approved charities, as well.

GUILFOYLE: So there's a vetting process.

BOLLING: There's a process, and God forbid he sent money to the wrong
charity or it end up being some stupid, you know, ISIS group. He -- they
would have destroyed Trump for doing it that way.

The guy raised $5.6 million. Give him a break.

GUILFOYLE: All right. Dana, what do you think about how this went down
from the messaging and from a communications standpoint?

PERINO: I think the best way to deal with anything like this is to just
have full and open facts and then to win on the facts and to be very
transparent about it.

And it was reported in the Washington Post and other places about where did
this money go? And how did they raise it? I absolutely agree. You have
to -- you can't just send checks to people because they have a vets group.
You have to make sure that it's a legit group, and all of us have been
through things like that with charities that are a little iffy. So you
want to make sure they're solid.

And regardless of who those veterans support in the presidential election,
they served their country. They didn't defer. OK, so these guys are
actually veterans who served our country.

Again, me, as a press secretary, like 50 percent of the role is advocating
for the president. Fifty percent of the role is advocating for the press.
The press has an obligation to follow through on stories where Donald Trump
held this fundraiser, because he didn't go to the FOX News debate, and he
wanted to get the attention -- he wanted to get the money for the vets,
absolutely. And it was a really clever; it was a very smart way to get
attention away from the FOX News debate that he didn't want to attend,
because he was having the argument with our network.

What reporters do is they follow the money. They always do. That's how we
have -- that's how we have the trouble with Terry McAuliffe, the governor
of Virginia. They're looking at his contributions.

The best way to deal with this, from a standpoint of if you want to be a
public servant -- and that's what Donald Trump is running for, he wants to
be a public servant -- you are accountable to the press. That's how our
country has been so great, is that we have a free media. And they get to
ask questions, and they should be respected to be able to do so.

The best way to beat them is to be full and open and transparent from the
get-go so you don't run into situations like this. Being in public service
is often a thankless job. You're not always going to get praised by the
media for something that you do. They're going to ask you when -- what did
you know and when did you know it, and where did the money go?

BOLLING: I just have to say here very quickly, I just wish they would have
the same venomous, vehement aggressive attitude towards Hillary Clinton and
all the money she'sraised and doled out that they seem to have...

PERINO: Like the Clinton Global Initiative.


PERINO: Which I think is -- that initial story came from The New York
Times. I mean, that -- it's not as fast-moving. And that's a much bigger
scale than this thing, but that's what reporters do. They should follow
the money. That's where you can find the most information. It's why
people ask where Donald Trump's tax returns are. That's where you find out
a lot of information about people.

GUILFOYLE: So what do you think about how this was handled by Trump and by
his team?

GUTFELD: I think this was a very, very positive development. Because I've
been saying from the beginning what makes a candidate better is criticism,
to hold them accountable.

This -- this began as a maneuver to get out of a debate. Vets were the
escape car for -- the getaway car to get out of the debate. But having
said that, the end does justify the means; he did raise money. So even
though he used this as a method to get away, he still followed through.

He added $1 million of his own money when I think The Washington Post
started poking him a little bit.

But how did this happen? He responded to criticism. Criticism was there,
because Trump often says contradictory things. He'll say this; he'll say
that. So it's a good thing that he responded, because I felt that he was
clear. He provided clarity. He gave the press the answers. And I think
that helps him.

And then the story ends. The story goes away because, you go, "OK." The
criticism actually helped him and didn't provide a hindrance.

WILLIAMS: I think there's a bigger story. I think you guys are exactly
right. So this starts January 28 with the FOX debate and his decision to
hold the event with the veterans.

The problem is that the money didn't immediately go to the veterans'
groups, so the veterans themselves -- and people often think, well, you
know, people in the armed service, disproportionately conservative,
Republican, and maybe even Trump supporters. They go, "Oh, you know,
Donald Trump is right in with the veterans. The veterans are going to join
in the Trump bandwagon."

But I was hearing from people, even Allen West, saying, you know, "What
happened to the money? Where did the money go?" Charlie Gasparino on FOX
Business asking the same question: "Where did this money go?"

And then you throw in the McCain comment that we heard about before. You
throw in things like are -- is that Trump U. scamming some of the veterans
who are looking to get education?

Hillary Clinton's camp then jumps in, throws fuel on the fire. They were
all around in the last few days, sending out surrogates to sent out --
signal this message. Trump has not been good to the vets.

And of course, what Dana touched on, just in -- just glancing; let me hit
it hard. Which is that guess what? He didn't serve, you know? He was not
out there. He got a deferral so he didn't have to go and fight in his

BOLLING: Wait. But he says he raised $6 million. He ended up raising
$5.6 million.

WILLIAMS: I'm saying that now, vets...

BOLLING: And you're going to the fact that he didn't serve?

WILLIAMS: When this -- well, that's a separate -- that's part of the story
in terms of his appeal to people who actually put their line -- life on the
line for our country.

BOLLING: Hey, you want to -- I didn't serve either, and I have the utmost
respect for the military and law enforcement.

WILLIAMS: Absolutely. But if you raise money...

BOLLING: Does that diminish my respect?

WILLIAMS: No, but what it does is to say, if you raise money and then...

BOLLING: No. It's a cheap shot, Juan.

WILLIAMS: No, it's not. I think -- wait, wait, hold on.

BOLLING: It's terrible to say he didn't serve, so it's a $6 million
donation and raise -- is less relevant.

WILLIAMS: I'll tell you what a cheap shot is. A cheap shot is saying that
you're a loser if you get captured. That's a cheap shot.

BOLLING: You bring it into another comment.

WILLIAMS: That's a very cheap shot.

BOLLING: You're tying serving to somehow diminishing the $5.6 million he

WILLIAMS: That's not the way you talk about our veterans.

BOLLING: It's insane.

GUILFOYLE: That's a separate subject. But when you look at this
situation, when you're making campaign promises and you're saying that
you're going to raise money for the vets, that you want to put the military
first, that you're going to make the military stronger than ever, that
you're going to put veterans first and, you know, take care of the V.A.,
make sure that they're at the forefront of importance, you say you're going
to do something, you say you're going to raise the money and then you do
and you show that you have, there's something to be said for that.

But if he said other things, like, I'm going to build a wall and have
Mexico pay for it.

GUTFELD: But the problem is he did it after -- he threw in a million
dollars after The Washington Post...

PERINO: Right.

GUTFELD: ... went after him. But he did. He did.

BOLLING: And by the way, he said more is coming. So if there's another
million that comes on, can we all go back and say, "Wow, he was right"?
And then not going to do it anymore.

GUTFELD: Then he shouldn't get mad at the press for pushing him to do it.
The circle.

GUILFOYLE: It's very positive to raise money for the vets. So whoever
would like to contribute and do something on their own, I feel that I'm
very helpful to the vets in my way.

GUTFELD: I have no idea what that means.

GUILFOYLE: Cute. A reversal from Katie Couric. She initially defended
the deceptive editing in her anti-gun documentary but now, she's finally
apologizing for it. This was a huge story. When "The Five" returns.


GUTFELD: Last week, we told you about an anti-gun documentary that was
edited so pro-gun citizens seemed stumped by Katie's Couric questions on
background checks. It was done to make her look smart and them dumb.


KATIE COURIC, JOURNALIST: If there are no background checks for gun
purchasers, how do you prevent felons or terrorists from purchasing a gun?



GUILFOYLE: I mean, come on.

GUTFELD: Amazing. But then uncut audio revealed that the guests weren't so dumb after all:


COURIC: How do you prevent felons or terrorists from walking into, say, a licensed gun dealer and purchasing a gun?

VA CITIZENS DEFENSE LEAGUE MEMBER 1: Well, one, if you're not in jail, you should still have
your basic rights. And you've done your time, you should...

COURIC: So if you're a terrorist or a felon?

VA CITIZENS DEFENSE LEAGUE MEMBER 1: If you're a felon and you've done time, you should have your rights.

VA CITIZENS DEFENSE LEAGUE MEMBER 2: The fact is we do have statutes, both at the federal and state level that prohibit classes of people from being in possession of firearms.


GUTFELD: Oh, they're smarter than she is.

After first dismissing this deception, Couric now admits to it, blaming a director's need for a dramatic pause. That sound you just heard is a bus driven by Katie rolling over her staff.

So why did she change her tune? Because she got caught. Think about it: If the incident hadn't been secretly taped, do you think she would have been copped to it?

You've got to wonder how many other segments by Couric, Brian Williams, Jon Stewart or others would have been more fair if they knew someone was holding them accountable.

The gun edit was made to avoid embarrassment and distort the truth. Consider their panic when suddenly, fly-over gun-toting guests show up and they're smarter and more prepared than the host.

The solution: rearrange, insert and remove.

Imagine playing checkers and every time you capture an opponent's piece, the game is rewound and it's your piece that's taken. That's the media versus the right. As elite propagandists, their main goal is to look smarter than you.

So before any interview with the media, remember: Always press record. Not only do you protect yourself and the truth; you also keep people like Katie honest. Because someone has to.

OK. This happens all the time in taped -- taped segments, Eric. And I
remember you talking about this a long time ago, about why live shows, like
we do not have the ability to make people look stupid.

BOLLING: Well, what we don't have is the ability to stop ourselves from

GUTFELD: Yes, yes.

BOLLING: A lot of times we do. And that -- there's an important

GUILFOYLE: That's happened.

BOLLING: You said that -- you said the reason why this happens is to avoid
embarrassment and also distort the truth.

The problem that I see is they could have cut the whole thing out.


BOLLING: And she wouldn't have looked dumb.


BOLLING: She wouldn't have asked -- walked into an ambush where the
question you're trying to elicit an answer, that you're trying to look
smart, actually turns on you and makes you look foolish. You could edit
that whole thing out. But then they selectively edited another piece of
tape, where they tried to turn it on. Distorting the truth is, in my
opinion, the biggest problem here.

GUTFELD: Yes. And they also are trying to trick -- they're not just
tricking the people on the show; they're tricking the viewers, Dana. This
happened to you -- won't get into it, but it happened on "The Larry Wilmore
Show," where you made -- you kind of made Larry look a little foolish, and
they edited it all out.

PERINO: On -- on a point about the looting in Baltimore.


PERINO: And the other thing about this one for -- on the Katie Couric
point is that this is supposed to be a documentary where people could learn
about something. The thing is, is that the left doesn't trust people.


PERINO: OK. They don't trust people to watch something, think about it,
and come to their own conclusions without some sort of, like, push in a
certain direction.


PERINO: And that's not how this documentary was publicized.


PERINO: It was supposed to be just a straight-down-the-middle thing, and
obviously, it wasn't.

GUTFELD: Kimberly, don't they just start with the conclusions and then
create a documentary to fulfill those assumptions?

GUILFOYLE: Well, that's what it was. Right? So there was a platform
here, and there was a movement and an ideology and a specific agenda. So
this documentary -- that's what it was called -- "Under the Gun," again,
executive produced. She's the E.P., so the bus stops, begins, lands, with
her. She has to get out in front of this. She tried to support -- "Oh, I
support the" -- You're one of them. Like, what are you going to do about
it to rectify this situation? I mean, you basically, by doing this, it
perpetrated a fraud on the viewers and people watching this documentary to
suggest something that, in fact, did not occur.

So the best thing you can do, besides it being pulled out of distribution
right now, is actually put it back in the way it really happened.

GUTFELD: Redo the documentary. Juan.

GUILFOYLE: That's what the documentary needs.


GUILFOYLE: It's not like, you know, made-for-television movie with, like,
loose interpretations or fake reality show.

GUTFELD: Juan, should Katie Couric be imprisoned?

WILLIAMS: I'll leave that to you.


WILLIAMS: But I will say this. I've done documentaries, and you can have
a point of view. I don't think that's illegitimate.


WILLIAMS: You can have a point of view, but it's manipulative if, in fact,
you are seeking a specific piece of tape from the person being interviewed.
When you don't get it, they either cut them out -- and I think that happens
all the time, they just cut them and leave them on the floor, because they
don't support the other -- the documentary makers' point of view. Or
second, in this case, you absolutely deceive the viewers by making it seem
that you are right, and they are wrong. That's not correct.

GUILFOYLE: And she's better than that.

PERINO: You could even say it's cut for time.

GUTFELD: All right. We've got to go.

Another good reason to save your pennies. They could come in handy when
you have to pay speeding tickets, next.




WILLIAMS: Some people write checks to pay off speeding tickets. Bret
Sanders paid off his ticket, $212 fine, with change.





SANDERS: Let me run out to the truck. I'll be right back.


SANDERS: You're in luck. I found exact change.



WILLIAMS: More than 21,000 pennies dropped on the pay counter at Frisco's
municipal court. Sanders tried to fight a ticket he got for driving 9
miles over the speed limit on his very own street, but he lost the case and
had to pay up. He said he didn't do anything wrong and figured he'd make a
spectacle. He actually ended up overpaying by $7.81, but he got his
spectacle. It was a big hit on YouTube.

Greg, you love it?

GUTFELD: I just feel bad for the lady, that she's got to deal with it, and
if there's people in line.

The bigger message is, if paying with pennies is seen as painful even by
the government, why isn't -- why haven't we eliminated this stupid coin?
Government is independent of evolution and natural selection. That allows
-- it allows inferior products to continue indefinitely. What's it called?
We should be...

PERINO: Retire the penny.

GUTFELD: ... extinct.

WILLIAMS: In fact, Dana, you know, private business could say, "No, we
won't take it. It's legal tender, but we won't take it." The clerk had to
spend three hours processing that money.

PERINO: And besides, I mean, he says -- they said he was driving nine
miles an hour over the limit. And he said he did nothing wrong, that
nobody -- he didn't endanger anybody's life. But he was over the limit,
and he lost the case.

WILLIAMS: He lost the case.

PERINO: You didn't need to do that to that lady.

And I agree. I wrote, "Retire the penny."

WILLIAMS: Retire the penny, what do you think?

BOLLING: Yes. The penny costs more than it's worth.


BOLLING: It costs more to produce the penny than the pennies. And then
they're only hoarding pennies.

Can I add another question? I think there are toll booths that won't take
a bill over a $20 bill. OK, right? So I think they should say, "We're not
going to take your pennies."

WILLIAMS: I imagine that you would have given this kid what he got, right?
I mean, you would have given...

GUILFOYLE: I would have come out of there like a velociraptor behind that
screen, let me tell you.

But that being said, I do enjoy finding a penny and picking it up.

WILLIAMS: me, too. All right.

GUTFELD: So do the men around you.

WILLIAMS: Calm yourself.

"One More Thing." "One More Thing" after this.


BOLLING: All right. It is time for "One More Thing.

WILLIAMS: Someone asked me, they said, "How -- how was your weekend?"

I said, "It was one of the greatest weekends of my life." My son Tony got
married. There's Tony and Erika outside 4th Presbyterian on Michigan
Avenue in Chicago. And here's a picture of Tony and Erika with Eli, Wesley
and Pepper. They were the flower girls and the ring bearer.

And here's the picture of the entire group, my family from the left.
That's my daughter Reagan. That's me, Erika, Tony, Delise my lovely wife
and Raffi, my youngest son. And there's youngest son Raffi with his
brother Tony. Raffi was the best man for Tony, which again, very special
for the family.

And there's the first dance between Tony and Erika. I must say, I was
crying when Erika danced with her dad, Dr. Gordon Nuper of Chicago. To
Gordon and Jan Nuber, thank you for an unbelievable, unforgettable

BOLLING: Congratulations and God bless.

PERINO: Every Monday, every weekend you have the best family stories.
They're really heartwarming.

GUILFOYLE: That's beautiful.

PERINO: I have a heartwarming good story. My mom, who might be waking up
right now out of surgery, she had double knee replacement this morning.
There she is on the right, my sister in the middle. And apparently,
everything went great. So she is recovering in -- recovering now. That's
her friend Barb there and my niece Jessica there on the left. So
congratulations, Mom. And hope you get better soon.

GUTFELD: She got new joints?

PERINO: Yes. Did she smoke one?

GUILFOYLE: Feel better, too.

PERINO: Kidding, Mom. I never did that.

GUILFOYLE: What happened with that segment? OK.

So I want to tell you about an incredible moment. You might have seen it
on "FOX & Friends." It was fantastic. Because this is a heart-warming

In 2006, an F-16 pilot, Major Troy Gilbert, was killed in Iraq in combat,
and he left behind his wife and his five children. But prior to his last
deployment, he sold his third-generation family truck, so the wife and kids
would have some extra money while he was gone.

Well, yesterday for the first time, Folds of Honor returned that truck to
his two sons nearly ten years after his death. They found the truck.
They, you know, bought it back, restored it and they saw it for the first
time. Take a look.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do you think? I mean, when you look at this right
now? We'll flip around...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I mean, I don't even have words.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just awesome, brother. Oh, my goodness.


GUILFOYLE: Isn't that so sweet?

PERINO: Great.

BOLLING: Great, great. Beautiful truck, by the way.

GUILFOYLE: God bless them.

BOLLING: Very fast, California Governor Jerry Brown endorsed Hillary
Clinton today. Not so long ago, just a couple years ago, he wasn't so
friendly with the Clintons. Watch.


GOV. JERRY BROWN (D), CALIFORNIA: He is funneling money to his wife's law
firm for state business. That's No. 1.

No. 2, his wife's law firm is representing clients before the state of
Arkansas agencies, his appointees. And one of the key is the poultry

be ashamed of yourself for jumping on my wife. You're not worth being on
the same platform as my wife.

BROWN: I'll tell you something, Mr. Clinton, don't try to escape it.


BOLLING: And this is a great exchange. I'll put it up on Facebook and
Twitter. Go there. It's amazing. It goes back and forth. It kind of
reminds you of 2016.

Greg, you're up.

GUTFELD: Let's go to something new.


GUTFELD: Great Summer Reading List.


GUTFELD: You know, I love books, but you know what I love? I love books
about books. This is by Dennis Boyle. It's about the Encyclopedia
Britannica's 11th Edition. Now, thousands of people came together -- it's
the original Internet and Wikipedia -- and created a book. It's a wild
story of American grit and enterprise. It's about the Encyclopedia
Britannica. How many books have been written about the Encyclopedia
Britannica? One.

BOLLING: There you go.

GUTFELD: It's called "Everything Explained That is Explainable."

BOLLING: That's amazing. All right. Set your DVRs so you never miss an
episode of "The Five." That's it for us. "Special Report" -- do we have a

GUILFOYLE: Oh, my God. Are you angry?

BOLLING: Five, four, three...

GUILFOYLE: You know it excites me why you're angry.

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