Dana Perino bringing 'open mind' to Facebook meeting

Mark Zuckerberg to meet with conservatives over bias concerns


This is a rush transcript from "The Five," May 18, 2016. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

ERIC BOLLING, CO-HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Eric Bolling along with Jedediah Bila, Juan Williams, Meghan McCain and Tom Shillue. It's 5 o'clock in New York City and this right here is "The Five."

Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton are now closing in on the magic numbers to clinch their nominations. Both are less than 100 delegates away. More election developments in just a minute including some breaking Trump news today. And get this, breaking Sanders news. Sanders just agreed to do a Fox News debate, but will Hillary Clinton follow suit? We'll be here for another 59 minutes and 30 seconds in case she wants to call in. We challenge her, will you come to that debate. But first, we will go out to Silicon Valley where Mark Zuckerberg is holding that damage control meeting with conservatives about a half-hour from now at Facebook to social network under fire for alleged political bias following accusation it suppresses conservative stories in its trending news feed. Now our very own Dana Perino, Perino will be at that meeting and she joins us now from outside Facebook's headquarters in Menlo Park, California, right before you go. And Dana, are you ready for the big smackdown? Are you going to take him? Shake him and say Mark, conservatives matter, too! Conservative lives matter, too!

DANA PERINO, CO-HOST: I was thinking of a hashtag that I could work on like Perino atomic elbow or something like that.


PERINO: I have one, believe it or not. I wish you guys were here, because it is really interesting to get out of, you know, our New York bubble, our Washington, D.C. bubble and to come out here to a different bubble, really, and to have, have a chance to be at this meeting. I'll be back in New York tomorrow. I'll report all about it. I'll be on "The Kelly File" later tonight. People are gathering. We're going to go there and just about 25 minutes. And so I go in with an open mind. I'm pretty curious about a couple of things. One, certainly about how the technology works and how the, how the algorithm gets put together so that you pick up the news trends feed. But the other thing that I've learned Eric, in just the interaction that we've had in this, about the story over the past few days is that there's some frustration about Facebook, not necessarily about news trends. And the conservatives have some sort of natural anxiety about being suppressed in terms of thought or news and that social media, which was a great boon to conservatives, because you could speak direct to people. When Facebook decided to get into the news business, it opened itself to this kind of criticism. And so I think that this meeting is at least their attempt to get in front of it in some way.

BOLLING: All right, Dana, we're going to bring it around the table, just one, one quick question. A lot of, there are some of the criticism that's been levied as to, as to the group that Zuckerberg brought is that it tend to, it looked like it tended to be an anti-Trump crowd, but tell me, are there, is the full spectrum of conservatism represented there today?

PERINO: Well, I think that even if when, I think they have 12 people coming. Even within those 12, I don't know if they would encompass all the different types of conservatism. Conservatism right now is a pretty big tent. And when it comes to Donald Trump, you know, Barry Bennett who had been on the Ben Carson campaign and done very well for Ben Carson then joined the Trump campaign and he is here and he was quoted in a "New York Times" this morning saying that he was looking forward to the meeting. He thought they had been very responsive. And so he'll be here as well as I saw Arthur Brooks and I know S.E. Cupp is going to be here and again, I'll report all that I can tomorrow, but I think leading into it, I do have to go into it with an open mind. I don't know what to expect. I don't have high expectations or low expectations. I just have a lot of curiosity both about the policy and the content, and then just bigger picture moving forward. If Facebook's mission is to be inclusive, then -- now that it's such a huge company with so much power. The choice is Facebook's, right? It's how do you use that inclusivity or how do you insure it. And I think this meeting is kind of, therefore set to try and figure out as we go grow as a company. If we're going to continue to do more on the news side of things, then we have to be aware that conservatives have a natural suspicion when it comes to suppression of their ideas or storylines, et cetera.

BOLLING: All right. We'll bring it around Jedediah.

JEDEDIAH BILA, GUEST CO-HOST: Dana, when this story broke there was -- there seemed to be really swift action on the part of Facebook.

PERINO: I'm not sure if I can hear you.

BOLLING: Can you hear --

BILA: You got me?

BOLLING: Can you hear us?

BILA: Got me, no?

BOLLING: Can you hear us? Do we lose you? Are you there?


BOLLING: All right, then.

BILA: We'll get her back.

BOLLING: Oh well then, I'll tell you what we'll do. Let's talk about what is going on with what Dana just said. Go ahead, Meghan, you want to weigh in?

MEGHAN MCCAIN, GUEST CO-HOST: I wanted to ask you, I read this (inaudible) poll today that said 68 percent of republicans now have an unfavorable view, that's 68 percent drop of Facebook. And when you have a PR disaster like this, which I think at this point you can call it a PR disaster. They're not calling in Dana Perino to Silicon Valley if it isn't. How do you possibly regain that trust? I don't like Mark Zuckerberg. I don't like him for a long time. I don't trust Facebook. I haven't trusted them since RNC in `08 when they went out of their way not to include themselves in the convention and Zuckerberg bragged about it and it end up being a total lie and she got called out on it. How do you regain that fact?

BOLLING: I don't, do you think -- we'll bring it around but don't you think by doing exactly what he's doing, bringing Dana Perino, S.E. Cupp --

MCCAIN: I hope so.

BOLLING: Hold on, we have Dana. Dana, Meghan makes a good point, how does Facebook -- how do you, this Facebook regain your trust? What would you need to hear?

PERINO: You're asking me, right?


PERINO: Now I can hear you. So a couple of things, first of all Facebook said that this is not their policy. And it doesn't make sense for it to be their policy, because it doesn't make business sense to cut off sort of half the country from trusting you. The second thing is they have people here that are going to show us the algorithm, how that's put together. Eric, you brought up a good point you talked yesterday. Talking about what is the difference between algorithms when it comes to different social media platforms, like Twitter and Facebook, different audiences, at least from my followers, as I see, but what is the difference when it comes to the news trends? And here's the other thing. I'm a big proponent of getting face to face with people to have a conversation if you have a concern or a controversy. It makes communication a lot easier. So that's really kind of the first step to building and keeping trust is actually having a relationship with people. I don't make it out to Silicon Valley very often. I've never met Mark Zuckerberg. He might not even know who I am. But having a meeting like this along with all the other people that are assembled here and maybe they'll have more in the future with other people, I think that's the first step to building trust because that trust builds up over years, but it takes only a minute or two to destroy it.

BOLLING: Right. And Dana, we have three questions left about six minutes, so that said Jedediah.


BILA: Zuckerberg himself has been very politically outspoken in climate change, immigration --


BILA: Numerous issues he's been very outspoken on. Do you think that was a mistake now? Do you think he regrets that looking back? And maybe that's part of when people look at Facebook and what's going on. They may look at the story through that lens.

PERINO: So I think that there is a separation that you can do in your mind in terms of politics and business, like your personal philosophy and your business. The problem I think for him is that he's been so public about his view points when it comes to climate change, immigration. Absolutely has right to have them, but he does have to understand that that could bleed over into a story like this when conservatives are concerned there's been suppression of their viewpoints or their news stories, and then they looked at, you know, and they've seen the speeches that he's given and the donations and such like that of other people around Facebook. And it does make you wonder what's happening. So this could be a lesson for them as well that if you're going to have a CEO that's this powerful in this public, that you don't run a risk that your personal viewpoints are going to bleed over into the business.


JUAN WILLIAMS, CO-HOST: Dana, one of the things that strikes me in terms of the politics is the Joe Kaplan who is a well-known republican who clerked for Justice Scalia, works for Mark Zuckerberg and Facebook in D.C. So do you know Mr. Kaplan? And do you trust him to help repair this damage? Because part of his work in D.C. is to lobby conservatives to get them involved with Facebook. I think Rick Scott, Ben Carson have all used Facebook to their advantage in terms of their conservative campaigns.

PERINO: Well, and not only that. But he has a responsibility of dealing with the federal government when it comes to law enforcement or CIA, Intel issues, like we've talked about that on the show before and how does Silicon Valley strike that balance and work appropriately with law enforcement when it needs to. And I also think that a lot of those campaigns like Ben Carson's campaign for example, really were fuelled by its ability to utilize Facebook, share content with voters or potential voters. And remember, all of those donations, he ran various successful campaigns, interestingly. Barry Bennett who is going to be here at this meeting for Donald Trump's team, he was on Ben Carson team .


PERINO: . it really ran that. So I think they understand the value of Facebook when it comes to conservatives. I think it's there. I think that this concern about suppression of news stories when it comes to conservatives ran the risk of upsetting some of those good partnerships. I will also leave with you this one. Two weeks ago, Facebook was pressured to withdraw from the republican convention by leftist groups and Facebook said, "No. We are definitely going to go to the republican convention and the democratic convention." But they weren't intimidated into leaving the Cleveland party that they're going to be throwing.


PERINO: And the partnerships, the technology that they do.

BOLLING: Tom Shillue.

TOM SHILLUE, GUEST CO-HOST: Dana, I'm sure they're going to work out this thing with the algorithm. I don't really understand it. Maybe you can explain it to me when you come back, but about the culture of Facebook.

PERINO: Yeah, right.

SHILLUE: I want to read you a quote from Jodi Seth, who is a spokesman for Facebook, and she said, "When they hired Joel Kaplan," who was in the Bush administration, they said, "we thought it was important to have a senior republican in the office to bring a conservative perspective to the table." What does that tell you about the culture of Facebook that they had to go out and look for a conservative?

PERINO: Well, you know, sometimes if you're in Silicon Valley you might not be able to find one, right?


PERINO: The conservative population here in Silicon Valley for the day. Joel Kaplan and I very good friends, we worked together at the Bush White House. I think he was an excellent choice. Again, his relationships, where he known Sheryl Sandberg when they were in college and he's been able to do a lot of good work there. Here's the thing that I'm gonna try to bring up today is that Silicon Valley does a very good job of champion -- being the champion of diversity. But when they think of diversity, I think they mostly think of gender and race. And that diversity of thought is also very valuable when it comes to growing a big company or to avoiding situations like the one that they're in now. So it's a first step and I will be back tomorrow to tell you all about it.

BOLLING: All right. I cut you off. Are you through to your questions? Are you good?

MCCAIN: Yeah. I just, you know, I hope this isn't a PR stunt on Mark Zuckerberg's part to stop the bleeding of this PR disaster, and I just look forward to hearing what Dana has to say tomorrow. And you're very brilliant and I trust you a lot more than I ever trusted him. Oh, she's gone.


PERINO: Right. I see what I can do. And I don't know a lot about technology, but I'll see what I can find out. All I know is that I push buttons and things happen.


PERINO: Now I have a chance to learn a little bit more about what happens behind that.

BOLLING: All right. Dana, thank you very much. Have a great time.

PERINO: Thanks guys.

BOLLING: Best to everyone all the conservatives out there. And you guys did, you quadruple the conservative population of Menlo Park, California. We look forward to hearing how that meeting goes. Coming up, breaking Trump news, a major announcement from the presumptive GOP nominee today. That's coming up next on "The Five."


WILLIAMS: Big news from the Trump campaign today, the presumptive nominee listing 11 potential nominees for the Supreme Court if he wins the White House. They include conservative federal and state judges. Trump says the list, quote, "representative of the kind of constitutional principles I value," end quote. Sean Hannity got the first interview with the candidate on the Supreme Court list and here's a clip.


SEAN HANNITY, "HANNITY" HOST: You are a constitutionalist?

DONALD TRUMP, GOP PRESUMPTIVE NOMINEE: Correct, correct. And I'm also, I want high intellect. I want great intellect. These people are all very high intellect. They're pro-life and -- so that's my list.


TRUMP: And we're going to choose from most likely from this list. But at a minimum, we will keep people within this general realm. Again, I have a lot of people that are conservative that really like me, love everything I stand for, but they really would like to know my view, because perhaps outside of the defense of our country, perhaps the single most important thing the next president is going to have to do is pick supreme court justices.

HANNITY: Who has --


WILLIAMS: The full interview airs tonight at 10:00 p.m. on the "Hannity" show. Don't miss it. So let me start with you, Jedediah.

BILA: Yeah.

WILLIAMS: It looks to me like most of these judges are anti-abortion. Is that, was that the test? Is that what he's trying to convey here?

BILA: I think he wants constitutionalists. I think conservatives when they look at a presidential election one of the chief concern is the Supreme Court right now. We've seen ObamaCare mandates, we have freedom issues, so many issues wind up hitting the court and many conservatives feel like constitutional principles aren't upheld. So this is his moment to ensure conservatives that look, I've got your back, not only on a pro-life issue, but on all matters of the constitution. And it looks like he's going to pick someone who abides by the constitution, for which would be a welcome change --

WILLIAMS: You know this is interesting to me, clearly, you know when I look at it I think he doesn't back Justice John Roberts, the chief justice on the ObamaCare mandate, for example right? He has trouble with Justice Roberts, but Justice Roberts is a conservative. The people that he's named like Pryor --

BOLLING: Did you --


BOLLING: Juan, when you said conservative John Roberts. Did you air quote that?

WILLIAMS: No, you don't think Robert --

BOLLING: Well, I think he kind of showed his true colors with the ObamaCare --

WILLIAMS: Wow. I don't even know what to say.


BILA: You look surprised --

WILLIAMS: I am surprised, because I don't think there's any doubt that John Roberts is a conservative.

BOLLING: Well, I mean he --

MCCAIN: Even I have my issues with John Roberts.


BOLLING: But conservative in name only but, was it -- anyway, so this should assuage the concern of many conservative who said Donald Trump is not a true conservative, OK --

WILLIAMS: Because?

BOLLING: Because of the issues, because he goes where he is on the bathroom issue, because of where he is on different issues. OK, so he's not hard- line right conservative, but the 11 people he picked for the Supreme Court certainly are. I mean, six federal court of appeals judges .


BOLLING: . five state Supreme Court judges, all of whom are on record with opinion being very, very conservative.


BOLLING: This is all good news. The Heritage Foundation said Donald Trump, a couple of weeks ago, maybe?

WILLIAMS: Yeah, yeah.

BOLLING: A couple of months ago perhaps, and said here's a list that we think would be good. Donald Trump, they gave him eight. Donald Trump put five of those eight on his list. So Heritage, a very conservative group says, we'd like this list as well. I think these are all, all very good things and this is great timing, because all the people who are concerned with Donald Trump can now realize that if you don't necessarily ascribe to everything he believes in, know that he's going to surround himself with very, very smart people.

MCCAIN: I think also the concern is in this election obviously, if Hillary Clinton were to win, the type of people she would put on the Supreme Court. So even if you have your issues with Donald Trump, the idea they are not being a pro-life person taking over for Scalia is the kind of thing that just keeps me up at night and a lot of different ways. I think those of us that are still hesitant about Trump, these only shows that he's making an attempt. He's showing that he will put real conservatives on the Supreme Court. He's taking it seriously. All that being said was getting a lot of play on the internet, Justice Don Willett, who was one of the people that was put on this list, he's been trolling Trump on Twitter for a long time. So you know, just PR wise, I would love for them to put out a list of things and maybe let this guy know --

WILLIAMS: Meghan, one question before I go on time .


WILLIAMS: . which is that, Merrick Garland who is President Obama's nominee to replace Justice Scalia is viewed as centrist. I mean someone who has been confirmed by republican and democrats in the past. But now, the supreme -- the republican's majority in the Senate is saying, we won't even consider him.


WILLIAMS: Would you put these nominees in the same category as Merrick Garland?

MCCAIN: This guy is -- yeah, Merrick Garland is super anti-Second Amendment and he's pro-choice, yeah. I put any of these people (inaudible).

WILLIAMS: Oh, but that's it. That's it.

MCCAIN: It's very --

WILLIAMS: Guns and abortion --

MCCAIN: It's the cornerstone --

BILA: That's pretty important issues.


SHILLUE: Those are big ones.

BILA: Those are pretty key issues.

BOLLING: Oh, that will --

MCCAIN: It's the cornerstone of my (inaudible).

BOLLING: The Second Amendment?

WILLIAMS: No, no, no. I'm just interested that there are litmus tests for conservatives.

MCCAIN: Those are two.

WILLIAMS: Their Intel, I guess Justice Roberts and others who are conservatives on court might not fit right now. Tom, am I wrong? What's going on?

SHILLUE: Well, I want to know what you guys think of Trump's proposal that you have to take all 11 at once. What do you think of that?


WILLIAMS: I think FDR, FDR wanted to do something like this.


SHILLUE: I wouldn't surprise me.


SHILLUE: But yeah, it looks like a good list. They're very conservative. The interesting thing is conservatives often say there's no litmus test, but apparently there is with Trump. He said they're pro-life, that's -- he does have a litmus test.

MCCAIN: That's a big one. I mean, especially for the Supreme Court.

SHILLUE: Yeah, but I think it is -- I mean, I think this is a, this is Trump at his most conservative. I think conservatives are going to be happy with this one.

BOLLING: The other interesting thing, one of the pushback on Trump was that, oh, his sister is a judge, right? And she's pro-choice.


BOLLING: And so he said, uh-oh, Trump might put his sister on the Supreme Court, put her up for a nomination on the Supreme Court, and she's pro- choice. Notice Trump's sister is not on the list. Also not on the list, Mike Lee, senator who is rumored, hey, maybe he would be on this list. He's not, but his brother is on the list. And Ted Cruz, a lot of people say maybe Ted Cruz, a constitutional conservative will be -- I thought .

MCCAIN: I would like that.

BOLLING: . he would be. I would have like that.

MCCAIN: Kind of like that, yeah.

WILLIAMS: Oh yeah, I can just see it now, lyin' justice.



SHILLUE: Nickname first then you can call him --

WILLIAMS: The nickname.

BOLLING: You can call him what you want .

WILLIAMS: Oh, come on.

BOLLING: . but he still is a constitutional conservative.

WILLIAMS: OK. But here's what I noticed.

BOLLING: So does he.

WILLIAMS: I noticed that all of these judges are in support of more strict voter I.D. laws, abortion and I, you know, to me I'm just wondering, that's what it's all about, Jedediah?

BILA: Well he said this is a guy who's for many have been on both sides of many issues. See, that's the struggle people have. They're trying to figure out what would Donald Trump actually do if he were elected president? So here, what he's saying to people is let me offer you some security. Regardless of what I've said in the past, what I want to do is abide by the constitution. So you're talking about, you know, you talk about guns, like it's the Second Amendment. So that, of course, that's important to him, he's going to, you know, take a look at the constitution, he's going to hire also the question is who would he hire? Who would he surround himself with? Well, he's telling you right now, these are the people that he would prioritize. So regardless, you can look at tapes from 15 years ago or 10 years ago, he's trying to offer conservatives some security as to what he would provide once he gets him to office, and I think this is a good start.

BOLLING: I'm surprised at you.

WILLIAMS: Why is that?

BOLLING: Even liberals know enough not to go anti-Second Amendment when they're up for election. Even liberals know that.

WILLIAMS: No, no. but I'm saying, you have justices here, and I thought the idea was we want conservatives, but we're not going to tell them. I mean, abortion, I agree, that tends to be a biggie, but beyond that you just want people who have experience, who have proven -- and I would think with Merrick Garland sitting there as a point of comparison, more centrist. Anyway, don't go away because up next, you're not going to believe what Trump, again, what he said about President Obama this time to Sean Hannity, that -- plus Trump's big interview with Megyn Kelly last night. The highlights when "The Five" returns.


BILA: More now from Sean Hannity's upcoming interview with Donald Trump tonight. President Obama has had plenty of things to say about the presumptive GOP nominee this campaign season. Tonight, Trump fires back. Take a look at a sneak peek.


HANNITY: You want fair trade, you're not a protectionist. You want better deals.

TRUMP: I want fair trade. The problem with fair trade the people we have now are incompetent. Our president is, you know, he used a word the other day, not a nice word, but he's an ignorant president. He's an ignorant president. He doesn't know what's going on, in my opinion, OK, and the opinion of plenty of other people.


BILA: Uh-oh, fighting words, Juan. You want to defend your president against that?

WILLIAMS: No. I mean that's, I think, you know, I think the president suggested that Trump's lack of knowledge equaled ignorance of foreign affairs, et cetera, and I think this is Trump paying that back. In fact, in the Megyn Kelly interview where Trump said whenever he feels injured he try, he doesn't do anything, he doesn't seek peace. He wants to fight back to uninjured himself as the way he put it, which I thought was pretty revealing and that's what this is.

BILA: Eric, he often says too, you know, he doesn't make these attacks just out of the blue, that he's on defense. A lot of times somebody says something about him and he retaliates, and that's he's right to do it. How do you think this plays, though, in the media when he says things like this about President Obama?

BOLLING: It plays well with the base, as the base is sick with Obama and they're tired of Obama. And I guess he's setting it up so that if Hillary wants -- and she's done this, run on Obama's legacy, she wants to be four more eight more years of Obama, he can set up the line. I think it's a waste of time for him, though.

BILA: Yeah.

BOLLING: He could have fluffed it off like, oh yeah, he's a lame duck, he's out of here, anyway. And that would have felt a little presidential to me like, I got this from you. I'll take this over. You can just hurry up and get out. Let me start measuring the curtains on 1600 Pennsylvania.



BOLLING: I think that would have been a little, but Donald Trump never backs down from a comment or a fight, and that's his stand.

BILA: I want to shift over to the Megyn Kelly interview. I thought she did an amazing job. Trump gave some really interesting answers to questions. Let's take at this one and I want to get your comment.


MEGYN KELLY, "THE KELLY FILE" HOST: If you don't become president, will this all have been for nothing? Or will you have changed America?

TRUMP: I will say this. If I don't go all the way and if I don't win, I will consider it to be a total and complete waste of time, energy and money.



BILA: See, Tom, I see you laughing. I actually disagree with him. I think he has completely changed the culture, the scene, he's proven that you don't have to have any love from the establishment and you can still win. I think he's done a lot whether he wins or not. What's your take?

SHILLUE: It doesn't matter. And he does -- I love that answer and it's so refreshing. I mean, I think people respond today, look at them and say, that is the least politician-type answer anyone would ever say. I mean, the people always say, oh, we're meeting wonderful people. We're making changes and everything like that. And he says no. If I don't win, it's a waste. And I think he said money too. He said it's a waste of time, and energy, and money. It's like that's the way he thinks, but if you don't win, it's nothing.

BILA: All right.

SHILLUE: And it's like, I think people feel that way. Remember when Mitt Romney lost? People were just crushed, and then you know, Mitt Romney says, well -- you know, he came out and he gave that -- I never loved that speech that people give and they say, "We worked so hard, and, you know, the president is going to do a good job." I wish the candidate would come out and say, "What, are you people dumb? You didn't elect me? What is wrong with you?" Because that's what they're thinking.

MCCAIN: I just think with all due respect, you've never been on the campaign trail for two years, my father lost spectacularly. I wouldn't take back one minute. The most liberating experience of my life. I know he agrees.

And I know Donald Trump's tone is incredibly different, but running for president is a privilege. That's actually the one answer I really didn't like last night.

SHILLUE: Wouldn't -- didn't you want to say, "Are you people stupid for not electing my dad"?


SHILLUE: You didn't.

MCCAIN: I think that's highly disrespectful, actually. And I actually think that Obama -- no, I don't. Because I think you have to listen to the will of the American people in the same way that the Republican Party has to listen to Donald Trump supporters right now. What America wants, America wants.

And I also think the moment that I liked in the interview last night was him actually copping to, maybe not regretting -- I wouldn't push it that far -- but saying he could have lived without the Heidi Cruz tweets. Because that was one of the things, above all else, that I had such a problem with, and I think many women did. Even just recognizing that it may have been a mistake, I think is a bold move for Donald Trump at this point.

BILA: You know, I think Megyn struck a really great tone. And I think she brought out something...


BILA: Meghan McCain, as well.

MCCAIN: Confusing.

BILA: But I think it brought out some humility in the guy. And I think when you look at Donald Trump oftentimes, you see someone who isn't going to say things like "I had regrets" or who isn't going to take things back or potentially say -- there was a softer side to him that I think would appeal to a lot of people who just look at his Twitter feed and just see these -- the bombast.

I don't know, Eric. What do you think? I think that interview serves him quite well to appeal to a broader section of the public.


BILA: No? You disagree?

BOLLING: It was out of character for me. I watched it, and I thought this isn't the Donald Trump I'm used to watching. And I frankly like the one -- not that one. I like the one where he does go at you and you...

WILLIAMS: And that's what he said. He said that, in fact, if he wasn't the kind of bombastic, aggressive character, he doesn't think that he would have been -- if he's talking policy and he's talking position, he thinks he wouldn't be...

BOLLING: He's not going to have 28,000 people in Mississippi if he's talking policy.

But guys, one thing. I agree with you. I don't even think -- I'm not even sure Donald Trump realizes how much change he's created in the American political spectrum right now.

WILLIAMS: Yes. He broke the Republican Party.

BOLLING: Right. And it was time to be broken.

WILLIAMS: Well, I don't know about that.

BOLLING: And it was right to be broken.

WILLIAMS: I have more respect -- I have more respect for the Republican Party than you do.

BOLLING: Donald Trump created a hostile takeover of the Republican Party. But again, in business you know this: you can't just take a company unless they're ripe for the taking. If they're not performing well, they can fight off a hostile takeover. The Republican GOP establishment couldn't fight it off, because it was broken.

MCCAIN: The question is, as you said you didn't respond to that interview. I did a little more. Is he pivoting? You have two women here saying we responded. It will be interesting if he continues that tone going forward to try and reach out to a different audience.

BILA: I think he's trying to get these voters that weren't so convinced before. He's got your vote, Eric. He's worried about us.

All right. Catch the big interview with Trump tonight at 10 p.m. Eastern on "Hannity."

Up next, another win for Bernie Sanders means another loss for Hillary Clinton. Uh-oh. The Democratic race developments when "The Five" returns. Coming up next.


MCCAIN: It was another big night for Bernie Sanders. He won Oregon's primary and nearly defeated Hillary Clinton in Kentucky. Clinton is claiming victory there and now just 92 delegates shy of clinching the nomination. Bernie is still vowing to stay until the end, however.


SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (D-VT), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: There are a lot of people out there, many of the pundits and politicians, they say, "Bernie Sanders should drop out." Let me be as clear as I can be. I agree with you. We are in till the last ballot is cast.

The Democratic Party is going to have to make a very, very profound and important decision. It can do the right thing and open its doors and welcome into the party people who are prepared to fight for real economic and social change.


MCCAIN: Sanders has even just agreed to do a FOX News debate out in California, putting the onus now on Hillary Clinton to accept the invitation, as well. I think there's no chance she'll ever do it. What do you think, Jedediah?

BILA: Yes. I think Bernie Sanders isn't afraid of tough questions. I think that's because he actually stands for something, and he doesn't actually have to be worried about. Hillary Clinton, on the other hand, is another story. I don't think she'll ever do it.

I reached out on Twitter, though -- it was interesting -- to Sanders supporters, and I said, "If you're a Sanders supporter and you could never vote for Hillary, tell me why."

And the words that I got back were, "She's corrupt. She's dishonest. She's a liar. She's a crook. She's a one-woman war on woman."

One tweet was amazing to me, because it perfectly defined what I would have said, but it came from a liberal. And I think the account is "IWeepforTrees." "She's not a Democrat, not a Republican, not a socialist. She's a Clintonite. It's all about her profit and power."

And I think that's why he needs to stay in, because I don't think that these voters that love him are automatically going to go to her. And I think for the left, if I were on a left, I would want a champion of what I actually stood for, and I think that he's the guy.

She stands for nothing. I think she's just a corrupt politician.

WILLIAMS: Meghan, can I hijack your segment just for a second and ask you a question. Why do you and why does Jedediah say that Hillary Clinton won't do this debate?

MCCAIN: Because I think she just wants to get -- become the nominee and debate Donald Trump. And I think she wants to put it behind.

But she's becoming a weaker candidate day by day. Bernie Sanders supporters, if you think they aren't crazy, go listen to the voice mails they left on the Nevada chair's voice mail. It is crazy. Don't ever say anything about Trump supporters. Listen to Bernie Sanders supporters.

And I agree with you, Jedediah: there's so many millennial women especially who I think are going to go to Trump, because they're so angry at Hillary Clinton right now.

WILLIAMS: Well, this is -- I think you're being wishful.

BOLLING: Can I give you an alternative or give you a reason?

WILLIAMS: Yes, go right ahead. BOLLING: Bottom of the ninth. There are two outs.


BOLLING: You're up by seven. Why are you playing -- why are you playing games? Just throw the ball, finish the game. There's no reason to take a chance on a debate.

WILLIAMS: Wait, wait. And you're saying -- you're saying throwing the ball is no debate?

BOLLING: Well, she wins in in Puerto Rico. She doesn't have to wait until California. She wins in Puerto Rico. Unless she says something wild in the debate.

WILLIAMS: Obviously, I am out of time. Tom, we haven't heard from you. Do you agree with these people?

SHILLUE: I agree with Eric completely. There's no upside for Hillary. She can just hide. She can hide from the debate. She's going to get the nomination.

WILLIAMS: OK. OK. So here's the -- here's the outlier point of view.

BILA: What's that?

WILLIAMS: Which is -- just because of what you said, what's been going on in Nevada, the fact that the Democratic establishment has been saying to Bernie Sanders, "Be a man. Stand up. You cannot have people threatening the Nevada Democratic chair, calling names, throwing tables and all the rest," there is a need for Hillary Clinton to speak to Bernie Sanders supporters and to treat Bernie Sanders with respect. And that's why she needs to do this FOX debate. In addition to which, she will reach an audience she has not reached before, often an audience of independent women.

BOLLING: Let me jump on that, also. Hey, Hillary, you want to be president of the United States? You know who would not back down from a debate like this? Donald Trump wouldn't back down from a debate like this. Why don't you show them and America what you got? Go debate Bernie Sanders. What have you got to lose?

WILLIAMS: That's what I'm saying.

BILA: The problem is she's still her. I don't know if you've paid any attention to her, but she's terrible at this.

WILLIAMS: Oh, yes. Wait a minute.

BILA: She is awful at this. That's the second problem.

WILLIAMS: Hold on. Let me answer your first -- your first issue.

BILA: She's terrible.

WILLIAMS: She's beat Bernie Sanders in every debate and gotten, I think, three million more votes than Bernie Sanders.

BILA: This guy, he's how old? He's a walking cartoon, and he's giving her a run for her money here.

MCCAIN: Also she's beating him fair and square. I'm so sick of this Roswell landing conspiracy that Bernie Sanders is hijacking everything. She has, like, 3.6 million more votes than he does. And they're just not going to put it past her.

Right now he's running to be socialist folk hero of America. And as much as I would love to see them come out and debate, he's no longer doing this because he wants to be the nominee. He just wants to continue making this political statement and doing God knows what.

WILLIAMS: You know, you're hurting Eric's feelings. I just want you to know, it's not nice. Eric is a big Bernie Sanders supporter. Because anything that's not Hillary, he likes.

BOLLING: It would be -- it would behoove her to show up to a debate.

WILLIAMS: I think so. We agree.

BOLLING: Especially when the challenger says, "I'll do this. We can do this." And work out...

WILLIAMS: And show -- and show -- just show enough respect, but show that, you know, you're not afraid of this.

BILA: Yes.

WILLIAMS: I think it's in your interest, Mrs. Clinton. John Podesta, it's in your campaign's interest, going forward against Trump, to have the Sanders people say, "She treated us with respect until the very end."

SHILLUE: A good sales pitch.

MCCAIN: I think she should do it, too, but she know that Bret Baier ain't Rachel Maddow, honey. She's going to have to answer some real questions, and a lot of times, she gets a lot of passes from the media. Just saying.

BILA: I think she is tough, too. And I think that it would be making -- for the people that really support her and really believe in her, this will be a great opportunity for her to kind of -- it would be. But I want you, I don't have quite the confidence in her that you do, Juan, I'm sorry to say.

MCCAIN: All right. Next, the whisper -- the whisper revealed more than 20 years later. What O.J. Simpson told his lawyer, Robert Shapiro, right after a jury cleared him of a double murder, coming up on "The Five."


SHILLUE: It was the whisper seen around the world. When O.J. Simpson was acquitted of double murder in 1995, he leaned over to one of his lawyers, Robert Shapiro, to tell him something in private. It's remained secret for more than two decades, until last night when Shapiro revealed O.J.'s words on "Megyn Kelly Presents."


MEGYN KELLY, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: Moments after the verdict, O.J. Simpson leaned over and whispered something in your ear. What did he say?

ROBERT SHAPIRO, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: "You had told me this would be the result from the beginning. You were right."


SHILLUE: The glove that didn't fit is what may have led to the acquittal. Here's what Shapiro told Megyn about that.


SHAPIRO: I tried the glove on. It was a little bit wide in my palm and a little bit long in my fingers. O.J. Simpson has enormous hands, and I knew that that glove would not fit him.

KELLY: Really?

SHAPIRO: Wouldn't even be close. Here's what I told O.J. Simpson: "I want you to walk as close to the jury as you can. Hold up your hand like you're holding the Olympic torch, and pull and tug on that glove." Because it will not fit. And clearly, it didn't.


SHILLUE: Wow. First of all, Eric, was Shapiro paid $1 million for his services? You get that?


SHILLUE: He looks like Dr. Evil.

No, I want to ask you, Eric, why are we still -- we're talking about gloves and hand size a lot this year, aren't we?

BOLLING: What a fail on the prosecution's part. I mean, Chris Darden was one of the prosecutors, right? Marcia Clark. They didn't know O.J. has massive hands? Anyone knows, a football player his size, he has massive hands. You try the glove on before you rest your whole case on the one glove. And by the way, when you have a rubber glove on underneath, that adds to the difficulty of putting on the glove.

Everyone knew that. I remember this case. You remember this?


BOLLING: Everyone knew that wasn't going to fit. But can you imagine that they let it all hang on the glove?

SHILLUE: But Juan...

WILLIAMS: Jedediah and I are too young to remember this case. But I did see the special.

But the thing that stunned me that Shapiro said to Megyn Kelly was he believes that the prosecution failed to understand the evidence, and it's likely there were two people involved. But he never says, "Well, so who killed Nicole Brown Simpson and her friend?"

I don't know -- I mean, to me, is this guy in denial? What's he up to?

SHILLUE: Well, I mean, he said it was his job to get him off. He didn't - - he didn't say he was innocent, right?

WILLIAMS: Yes. He apparently thinks there were two people. Or maybe he thinks O.J. and another person did it?

SHILLUE: I mean, be serious.

Jedediah, do you remember this case? Did your kindergarten teacher stop the class so that you could watch the verdict?

BILA: I remember watching the chase. We were all huddled in my parents' bedroom. And I remember that it was a moment I was never going to forget. I look at it now, and it makes me want to star in a courtroom drama, be an actor and do something like this.

But it's so fascinating to me the way these -- these cases sort of overtake the culture. And the way you never forget them.

SHILLUE: Well, what ever -- this would be one, I mean.

BILA: It sort of paved the way for -- I mean, my mom is very into this stuff. She's probably watching at home right now and can name 500 of them. But you know, JonBenet Ramsey. Or whatever the case may be.

BOLLING: Casey Anthony.

BILA: Casey Anthony, yes. It mesmerizes us. And we sort of forget sometime that it's real life. You get -- you get captivated by it, and you forget that these are real lives at stake. So it's an interesting phenomenon.

SHILLUE: Absolutely.

MCCAIN: It's so fascinating, though. That FX show was huge about O.J. Simpson that came out a few months ago. I mean, everyone I know was watching it.

I think it's -- honestly, I think, part of it is because of the Kardashians are so popular. And there's, like, now a current reference to an old reference. And it's the trial that changed everything. Because like you said, Jedediah, then Court TV came and every trial since, Nancy Grace has - - makes a living and, you know, people are still endlessly fascinated.

SHILLUE: But do we have a shot of him putting those gloves on? We had the still of him with the gloves. I mean, you look at -- they're that that small, are they? I mean -- you can still kill someone with gloves like that, you cannot?

MCCAIN: He's guilty; he killed her. I mean, you know, it's just -- right now it's amazing that they're able to get him off.

BILA: That's actually a great point, though. Like because the glove didn't fit perfectly, he wasn't able to commit a crime? I see what you're saying. If you use common sense for a second, you can have an ill-fitting glove and still commit a crime. I see where you're going for this.

SHILLUE: It didn't have to be his gloves. I mean, when you're going to murder someone, you grab any gloves, don't you?

BILA: Well played. You should have been a lawyer.

They needed you in the courtroom, Shillue.

WILLIAMS: I want to go visit Shillue when they -- when they take him to jail, since he's telling me he's putting on gloves before he kills people.

BILA: Oh, boy.

SHILLUE: Meghan said it was the Kardashians and, you know, the spectacle of the trial. But really, wasn't it about race? Wasn't race the issue?

BOLLING: I feel bad for O.J. Yes, remember after the trial he said he would not rest until he found Nicole Brown's killer.

WILLIAMS: You say to yourself...

BOLLING: Twenty-five years later, he still hasn't...

SHILLUE: How many golf courses did he search? Right? OK. "One More Thing" is up next.


BOLLING: Time for "One More Thing" -- Juan.

WILLIAMS: Well, I have a story of modern love, but sadly, it ends in divorce. After a wedding, a husband and wife returned to their hotel room, but the wife will not get off her cell phone. She's texting with friends. And the groom becomes frustrated and says, "Who's more important to you? Your friends and that texting or me?"

She said, "I'm going to finish my texting." Well, he got hot, and pretty soon they were arguing. And minutes after the wedding, he filed for divorce.

BILA: I love it!

WILLIAMS: Divorce. You like this story?

BILA: That's me, I'm Italian. We get excited.

BOLLING: You got that she liked her friends more than him?

WILLIAMS: The texting, Eric, you would put up with this?

BOLLING: I wouldn't have married her, if that was the deal, in the first place.

BILA: That was beautifully said, by the way. You should be a narrator.

BOLLING: Especially a guy who's spending so much time in weddings recently.

WILLIAMS: Yes, but I hope that nobody in my family would do that.

BOLLING: Right. All right. So something really, really crazy happened today. I'm just -- I'm blown away about this. So you know, I wrote a book, "Wake Up, America." It comes out June 28. Barnes & Noble on their top 100 bestsellers, today, it ended up No. 9. It's not even out yet. It's No. 9 of all bestsellers. If you go to the politics -- click on the politics books, it's No. 1 in politics. It hasn't even gone on sale yet.

SHILLUE: Presale.

WILLIAMS: That's unbelievable.

BOLLING: I'm just absolutely blown away. I want to say thank you. You can order the book down there at

WILLIAMS: Congratulations.

BOLLING: And wow, just so fantastic. I was so proud of that.

BILA: I didn't get my copy yet. It's not out for another...

WILLIAMS: It's not out yet.

BILA: Still, I like to get the advance, you know, pre-edit.

BOLLING: Do we see if we can get up the -- J.K. Rowling is No. 1. I want to see if we can get close to her.

Tom, you're up.

SHILLUE: OK. "Red Eye" has the best fans. I call them my Shilluenatics.

BILA: Yes.

SHILLUE: They text me in the middle of the night. Taft (ph), the resident artist draws "Red Eye" every night live and yesterday drew "The Five." Do we have that picture? That's us, last night at midnight. You can see me there with the -- look at Jedediah.

BOLLING: Am I the dark one in the back?

WILLIAMS: Yes, that's you.

SHILLUE: Look...

MCCAIN: Look at your cheekbones.

SHILLUE: My cheekbones are always there. It's always two cheekbones.

Look at Eric, though. Eric, you look angry.

BOLLING: I look scary.

MCCAIN: Didn't mean to ruin that for you.

BOLLING: You're up. Jedediah.

BILA: OK. So this story combines my two favorite things in the world, pets and firemen. I love that Meghan caught that right away.

So Houston Fire Department rescued two pets. There was a big fire. Listen to this: there was a little dog hiding inside of a wall, and then they found a cat that had gone inside of a mattress and hidden. Look at what these guys did. And amazing. They washed them off. They carried the dog. They gave the dog oxygen. They gave the cat oxygen.

I mean, these -- this is why I love them. Because it's not only that they save people. But they save pets. And everyone knows that, if I could, I would have a giant farm. This is a feel-good story for everybody at home.

SHILLUE: You love firemen, don't you?

BILA: I do.

BOLLING: Meghan.

BOLLING: Juan, you were a fireman before you were a journalist, weren't you? Just work with me. Say yes.

MCCAIN: All right. My "One More Thing" yesterday was my parents' 36th wedding anniversary.

BILA: Yay. Look at that.

MCCAIN: I just -- I love my parents obviously. Thanks for falling in love and having me and, you know, showing me what a great marriage is through, you know, a lot of crazy things in their life. So I'm very happy. I just want to give them a shout-out on "The Five." My mom is very excited.

BOLLING: We should all shout out at the McCains, congratulations. Thirty- sixth?

MCCAIN: Thirty-sixth, yes.

BILA: You look just like your mom.

MCCAIN: Oh, thank you.

BILA: Amazing.

MCCAIN: My mom is so hot and she was like when she was younger, though. She got married when my mom was 24, and my dad was, like, 58. Not really. He was, like, 40. There's a 20-year age gap. And I'm, like Mom was really hot.

BOLLING: How long have you guys been married?

WILLIAMS: I've been married about 38 years on July 1.

SHILLUE: Thirteen, 13 years.

BOLLING: Eighteen years for me.

BILA: Wow. And then there's me. So...

BOLLING: You'll get there.

All right. We'll leave it right there. Set your DVRs so you never miss an episode of this here show, "The Five." That's it for us. "Special Report" is coming up right now.

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