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Kelly File

Texas Lt. Gov.: Transgender decree will cause chaos; Reporter: Trump leaked tape of himself posing as publicist

This is a rush transcript from "The Kelly File," May 13, 2016. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

MEGYN KELLY, HOST, "THE KELLY FILE":  Breaking tonight, a firestorm of criticism continues to build, 24 hours after the White House drops a late night memo that critics argue is changing the rules at every school in America when it comes to issue of transgender students.  

Welcome to "The Kelly File," everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly.  The DOJ and the Department of Education made the announcement in the middle of the night headed into a Friday sending a message to schools that reads in part, quote, "The desire to accommodate others discomfort cannot justify a policy that singles out and disadvantage a particular class of students."  End quote.  Now, all public schools that receive public funding, including most colleges and universities, are at risk of losing that funding if they do not follow a variety of rules regarding transgender students like allowing those students to use rest rooms that match their gender identity.  

And forcing school staff to use pronounce and names consistent with a transgender student's identity.  It immediately set off critics across the country.  The chief among them was Texas Lieutenant Governor Dan Patrick, who argued that what the President is essentially doing is blackmailing schools into enforcing his position.  Then the White House fired back, just listen to the back and forth starting with the Lieutenant Governor.    

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAN PATRICK, R-TEXAS LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR:  I believe it is the biggest issue facing families and schools in America since prayer was taken out of public schools.  He says he's going to withhold funding if schools do not follow the policy.  Well, in Texas, he can keep his 30 pieces of silver. We will not yield to blackmail from the president of the United States.  

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER:  -- Respond to Texas Lieutenant Governor Dan Patrick?

JOSH EARNEST, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY:  Well, I think this does underscore the risk of electing a right wing radio host to a statewide elected office.  

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KELLY:  Former Bush speechwriter Marc Thiessen and nationally syndicated radio host Richard Fowler are here in a moment to debate.  

But first, let's turn to Texas Lieutenant Governor Dan Patrick.  Sir, thank you very much for being here with us tonight.  Your comments in response to the White House's remarks on you?

PATRICK:  Well, first of all, when all we can do is personally attack someone in less than 24 hours after you have a new policy out, you already know they are on the defensive.  And by the way for the record I spent eight years in the -- education, was the chair of education as Lieutenant Governor.  I oversee a budget of about $40 billion.  Six million students, 1200 school districts and 330,000 --   

KELLY:  So, you've done more --  

(CROSSTALK)

PATRICK: -- a little bit about education more than the judge or the President does.  This has nothing to do, this policy, to enhance education on our country.  It won't improve reading skills or math scores.  It won't help kids graduate.  This will do nothing but be disruptive Megyn to our schools.  Look, I was talking to a teacher just a little bit ago and I say, you know, we have tough enough time with boys in the locker room and girls in the bathroom, when you start bringing in 14-year-old boys with 14-year- old girls to shower together, seven-year-old children co-mixing in the bathroom, it's going to be chaos in our schools.  The President -- by the way he threatened to take away funding.  

KELLY:  Wait.  Let's just go back and forth rather than just talking straight through.   

PATRICK:  Sure.   

KELLY:  Because this is what the other side says.  This is reality, this is the reality of life in 2016 America that we are now finally getting to the point where we recognize that there are transwomen, transmen, trans girls, trans boys and that they have been stifled and tortured in a way for so long, that yes there may be some disruption in mainstreaming these kids and getting things to a place where they are accepted but that it's for the greater good.   

PATRICK:  Megyn, the transgender population supposedly is around three- tenths of one percent.  And by the way, every school district has handled the transgender children just fine.  They make accommodations.  We make accommodations for America for all types of students who come to school with all types of issues.  Again, America is not going to stand for having their teenager show together, or go to the bathroom together in elementary school.  It's not going to happen.  This will be the beginning of the end of public --   

KELLY:  But why?  Explain why.

PATRICK: -- education as we know it.  It's going to inflate the rules quickly in private schools and home schoolers, it's going to push school choice all across this --  

KELLY:  But why?  If you can answer my question.  Why won't Americans stand for that?  Why is it like -- try to articulated why --  

PATRICK:  Because it goes against common sense, common decency, privacy, comfort, safety, the value system of people.  And by the way, Megyn, this is not a partisan issue.  In Houston, I helped fight back an ordinance that would have allowed men in ladies rooms.  And we defeated that ordinance in a Democrat city two to one.  

KELLY:  Allow men in the ladies rooms or allow transwomen in ladies rooms?

PATRICK:  Pardon?  

KELLY:  The ordinance would have allowed men in the ladies rooms or would have allowed transwomen in the ladies room?

PATRICK:  No.  Well, here's what people don't understand.  When you pass this ordinance and these rules particularly in the adult sector, it says any person, any man who feels like he is a transgender, he feels like he is a woman can go in.  They don't have to be dressed like a woman.  They can be dressed like an ordinary man and what this creates Megyn is a great loophole for all the sexual predators and sex offenders.  That if anyone Googles in their neighborhood, they'll be shocked at how may live around that area --    

KELLY:  Why can't just sex offenders just, I mean, like, a lot of sex offenders are men who molest men, who molest boys.  

PATRICK:  Sure.

KELLY:  Why do you feel you need to sneak into the girl's room?

PATRICK:  Well, it could be vice versa.  But Megyn, look, I have four grandchildren and two children.  I don't want an eight-year-old granddaughter walking into a bathroom with a 30-year-old man there.  And no one else does.  Anyone who has a grandmother, mother, a wife, a sister, daughter, and granddaughter doesn't --  

KELLY:  But what if that man looks like a woman and she would never know that this is --  

PATRICK:  Pardon?

KELLY:  What if that man looks like a woman --

PATRICK:  No, Megyn, you're missing this, and this is what people are missing.  

KELLY:  I don't think I'm missing anything.   

PATRICK:  Megyn, laws like this would allow any man at any time dressed any way to go into a bathroom because they feel like a woman.   

KELLY:  Do you have a problem with that?

PATRICK:  Pardon?  I'm losing you a little bit.   

KELLY:  Is this a problem with man intentionally --  

PATRICK:  It will be if we allow men in ladies room in America --  

KELLY: -- donning women's clothing so they can sneak into --  

PATRICK:  And we will have problems into our schools if we have boys and girls showering together. Megyn, this goes against, just again, common sense and common decency.  

KELLY:  Okay.   

PATRICK:  A women deserve privacy in the bathroom, they deserve safety in the bathroom.  There is no need for this policy.  This is a policy solution in search of a problem, there isn't a problem.  Again, the president needs to stay out of local school districts.  

KELLY:  Okay.

PATRICK:  Let the parents, let the school board, and let the superintendents decide this policy.   

KELLY:  There you go.  That's where I'm going to pick it up with my panel.  

PATRICK:  I guarantee you in every school district in America, in Shirley, Texas this would be turned down by 60, 70, and 80 percent of the parents.  

KELLY:  I've got to -- I've got to leave it at that.  I got to pick that up a bit with my panel.  Lieutenant governor, thank you very much for being here.  My apologies.  

Marc Thiessen is here along with Richard Fowler, let's pick it up there. Because Marc you feel as the Governor does.  Pick up that point about whether -- even if you believe as lieutenant governor does, the point is, does the Obama administration have the authority to do this?

MARC THIESSEN, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR:  I don't think they do.  I mean, this is a completely lawless action.  And this is just like their executive action on illegal immigration.  There's been no act of Congress that authorizes this.  There's been no Supreme Court decision, there's been no regulatory process where people could comment.  They simply issued an edict in the middle of the night informing school districts across the country and public universities that you have to follow this policy or we are going to financially withhold --  

KELLY:  I thought it was guidance.   

THIESSEN:  It's guidance but it says that you can lose millions of dollars in federal funding which by the way goes for poor children and disabled children for the most part.  

KELLY:  Yes.

THIESSEN:  And they are threatening the school districts.  If you don't comply, then they have to do it.  This is what the Obama administration does.  When they want to make a big social -- I think we can all agree, this is a big change in society.  When you want to make that change, instead of going out and trying to find consensus and make their case to the American people, they go out and issue an executive order and then find some law that they can reinterpret in order to justify.   

KELLY:  Rather than bringing the people along.   

THIESSEN:  Instead of doing the Democratic process.  Exactly.   

KELLY:  Although Richard, they have not been getting a lot of success in getting buy in.  Go ahead.   

RICHARD FOWLER, NATIONALLY SYNDICATED RADIO HOST:  Well, here's the thing, Megyn.  The federal government has the ability to release guidance.  They do it all the time.  What is problematic with both Marc's argument and the Governor's argument is the idea of, you know, they can't do this, this is wrong for society, but they are forgetting that these are children, too. These are people's kids who happen to be transgendered.  And all they want to do is pee?  And the fact that we won't let them pee in the bathroom that they identify is downright sad and despicable in America.   

KELLY:  You know the argument against it, Richard.  The argument against that is, okay, but the children who are used to just identifying -- who are just seeing other, you know, little girls have you, with a, you know, a girl's body will be in the Lieutenant Governor's opinion traumatized by the sight of a child that has a boy's anatomy but identifies as girl coming into the locker room.   

FOWLER:  You know, Megyn, here's the thing.  I think kids are the most understanding people in the world.  Right?  I think if you were to talk to children, you talk to them in the back of the Jim Crow south, the reason why they didn't like Black was people their parents don't like Black people, right?  Or the reason why they have a problem with transgender is because their parents had a problem with transgender folks.  So, we have really got to redefine how we talk about discrimination and inclusion in this country.  School should be a safe and welcoming environment where everybody learn and everybody grows.  The governor is right, we talk about reading and writing and math.  But what's also important in education is being a well-rounded citizen and having, you know, critical thinking skills.  

KELLY:  Well, let me ask Marc about that.  

(CROSSTALK)

Do you think Marc -- in the same way -- we've come a long way when it comes to gay rights in this country.  We are at the precipice of new rights and new acceptance of transmen and transwomen, and this is the beginning of that, bumpy as it may be.   

THIESSEN:  I don't think this is actually not about acceptance of transmen or transwomen.  I think it's a compassionate society where the transgender people deserve protection.  So does everybody else.  I mean, the problem isn't so much a transgender person walking into a women's room and being in there and person being traumatized by it.  The problem is is quite frankly is that sex predators could pretend to be transgender people and use that as an excuse --  

FOWLER:  Marc --  

THIESSEN:  No. hold on!  Let me finish my point.  Hold on.  So, I mean, the fact is, that it's defined by how you feel.  Okay?  This is what it says, gender identity --  

KELLY:  That's what gender identity is.  That's the -- gender identity, you know, folks are struggling with that issue.  They don't think gender should be determined by anatomy.   

FOWLER:  Every time that Republicans use this argument, and Marc has used, give me one example where a transgendered woman has walked into --    

THIESSEN:  It's not a transgender woman.  

FOWLER:  Yes it is a transgendered woman.  

THIESSEN:  Give me an example of a transgendered --  

FOWLER:  I will --  

(TALKING OVER EACH OTHER)

KELLY:  So, Marc is saying there is a fear of men in trans --   

FOWLER:  He can't give one example, Megyn, not one.

THIESSEN:  I can.  

KELLY: -- and people taking advantage.  Okay.  I have got to go.  It's great to see you both.

FOWLER:  Good to see you, Megyn.  

KELLY:  Listen, this is a very timely topic, as you know, and as many of you are aware I have a primetime special called Megyn Kelly presents.  And it premieres next Tuesday at 8:00 p.m. or on the FOX News broadcast network, that's American idol Fox, if you will.  For part of that special, I sat down with Laverne Cox, someone whose personal story puts her right at the heart of what we just discussed.  Now, you may know Laverne best as Sophia from the critically acclaimed Netflix series "Orange Is The New Black."  For her role she became the first openly transgender woman to be nominated for a primetime Emmy.  In our interview she spoke about telling her family of her decision to come out as trans.  Specifically about the toll it took on her and her relationship with her mother.  Watch.  

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KELLY:  Did you ever worry that your mom didn't love you?

LAVERNE COX, "ORANGE IS THE NEW BLACK" STAR:  That's exactly what -- that's exactly what I worried about.  I -- yes.  That was -- that was the only thing I have ever wanted is for my mother to love me and to be proud of me. And when -- when I was being sent to a therapist and when my mother was yelling at me telling me I wasn't acting the way I was supposed to.  It felt as if she might not.   

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KELLY:  She has got quite a story to tell.  And it's a triumphant one in the end.  Again my primetime special Megyn Kelly presents premieres next Tuesday at 8:00 p.m. on the Fox broadcast channel.  Donald Trump as you may have gather from this promo will also be there along with Robert Shapiro and Michael Douglas.  

Well, we are also seeing the White House again at odds with the head of the FBI.  After new number show violent crimes skyrocketing across the country.  Charles Krauthammer is here next on why both the fight and the crime rates are getting worse.   

Plus a crazy story tonight involving Donald Trump and a 1991 interview about his love life.  We've got the tape and the reporter at the center of this just ahead.  

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN MILLER:  He's got a whole open field really.  A lot of the people that you write about and you people do a great job, by the way, but a lot of the people that you write about really are -- I mean, they call.  They just call.  Actresses, people that you write about just call to see if they can go out with me.  

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KELLY:  Developing tonight, Chicago police may very well get a call about a murder in the next few hours if city crime stats there are any predictor. More than 200 people have been killed in that city in just the first four months of this year.  And it is not just Chicago.  In L.A., more than 100 murdered so far this year.  In Baltimore, similar number.  And that is just the murder rate.  It's so bad nationally that the FBI director said this week, "I don't know what the answer is.  But holy cow do we have a problem.  It's complicate, hard issue, but the stakes couldn't be higher.  A whole lot of people are dying."  

In a moment, Charles Krauthammer is here.  But first we go to Trace Gallagher with our investigation.  Trace?  

TRACE GALLAGHER, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT:  Megyn, just two years ago Lee McCollum III was featured in the CNN documentary Chicagoland.  He was pointed to as an example of a troubled young man who had been shot twice but with the help of ground breaking programs, implemented at Fenger Academy on Chicago South Side.  McCollum moved away from gang violence and got into college.  At the time, he said one of his big worries was ending up back on the streets.  It was on those streets early yesterday where the 22-year-old McCullum was shot and killed.  

Chicago police say he was a documented gang member who lost his girlfriend in a shooting less than a month ago.  But Lee McCollum is just one tragic tale in what is now an alarming trend.  A skyrocketing murder rate in more than 20 major cities.   In the first three months of this year, Chicago has seen 141 murders, compared to 83 in the first three months of last year. The murder rates in Vegas and Dallas have almost doubled with more than a dozen other cities seeing a sharp increase.  New York and Miami are among the few cities seeing a decrease.  

And after checking the numbers, FBI Director James Comey says he believes the uptick in murder could be linked to the viral video effect, also called the Ferguson effect, where officers are less aggressive for fear of ending up on the news.  Last year, Comey called it a chill wind.  Listen.  

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES COMEY, FBI DIRECTOR:  That wind is made up of a whole series of viral videos and the public outcry that followed them.  And that wind is surely changing behavior, my common sense tells me.  

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GALLAGHER:  The White House disagrees, saying there is no evidence violent crime is related to an unwillingness of police officers to do their jobs -- Megyn.   

KELLY:  Trace, thank you.  

Joining me now, Charles Krauthammer, he is a Fox News contributor.  And author of the book "Things That Matter" now out in paperback.  Charles, good to see you.  The stats are just deeply disturbing.  And the question is why?  Why are we seeing this spike?

CHARLES KRAUTHAMMER, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR:  Well, I'm sure there is not just a single cause.  But I do believe far more in Comey than I do in the White House spinners as to whether the Ferguson effect has contributed.  I think it's sort of almost undeniable.  First of all, the logic of it, as Comey has outlined it, obviously, if you are a police officer, you are called into Baltimore for an incident in an inner city, you are surrounded by crowds taunting you, holding up the cell phones, are you going to want to act aggressively to try to put down what's whatever is going on?  Or would you simply shy away?  

I think the evidence is that a cop out of sort of logic and self- preservation is going the shy away, particularly after having seen how when she these incidents happen, the White House and the  Department of Justice have in the past lined up with those who blame the police as for example, in Ferguson.  

KELLY:  Uh-huh.   

KRAUTHAMMER:  So that's the logic of it.  You have the anecdotal evidence, cops will tell you of course, there is this element of I'm going to be tagged, I'm going to be filmed and I'm going to be ruined.  And then you have the statistics, which seem to back it up.  Baltimore is the most extreme example.  That's where they have the highest homicide rate ever.  

KELLY:  Uh-huh.

KRAUTHAMMER:  And that's the city where the sense of authority has been dissipated.  And when you lose that sense of authority, somebody in charge, this is what you get.  

KELLY:  You know, the administration says there is no evidence.  There is no evidence tying this spike in the murder rate to anything they have done in cracking down on police departments.  And they say the second point, those Police Departments say they cracked down upon deserve it.   

KRAUTHAMMER:  Well, the deserving it is a separate argument.  But when they say there is no evidence, what they are implying is that it is a complete coincidence that you get these kind of spikes in cities, again, like Baltimore where we know we had the mayor telling the police to stand down in the middle of a riot.  And that I think has an effect on the -- first, on the bad guys in the city who want to do damage, a sense that there is nobody in charge.  And second, on the thin blue line.  Why do you want to risk everything?  Your life is already on line every morning that you go to work.  Do you want to make it even more dangerous and have less protection behind you, political protection, legal protection behind you by going into situations that you could simply just ignore or back away from?

KELLY:  You know, Charles, to what extent is this attributable to the demonization -- there is no question that in some instances cops have done bad things.  Including, we saw that in Chicago with that videotape and so on.  And you know, there have been -- there has been misbehavior in some instances.  But some are so determined to demonize cops as a group.  And then even when those cops are exonerated -- exonerated as we saw with Officer Darren Wilson in Ferguson, Missouri, refuse to admit it -- I'm reminded of this exchange that I had with Al Sharpton who condemned Officer Darren Wilson in Ferguson and even when the DOJ had exonerated him refused to come to terms with it.  Watch this.   

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KELLY:  Let me take you back to Ferguson, Missouri and the case there against Officer Darren Wilson.  They said there was no evidence to disprove his statement that he was in fee of his life.   

AL SHARPTON, MSNBC HOST, "POLITICS NATION":  Well, first of all, if the DOJ said that, then that is contrary to what eyewitnesses saw so, if I say what I believe to be the case based on talking to several witnesses, I should apologize for what?

KELLY:  This is our opportunity to come out and say, that stuff I said about him not being in fear for his life, that was wrong.   

SHARPTON:  No.  I can say the DOJ said it was wrong.  

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KELLY:  So he -- you know, he wouldn't take responsibility.  

KRAUTHAMMER:  Well, he never does.  This is the guy who defended Tawana Brawley who was part of the hoax in which a completely innocent White detective or police officer was charged with terrible crimes against this young woman.  It was a complete hoax.  He knew it and then when he got sued, he said sue me if you think I wasn't telling -- so he got sued.  And apparently, he never paid the fine or whatever he was supposed to do.  He has got a long history of this.  And the fact that he is sort of an unofficial spokesman for  African-Americans in the Obama years speaks loudly to how they have tended to put their thumb on the scale, people like him, who will jump to a conclusion for which in all the reports I think on Ferguson those supposed eyewitness reports turned out to be false.  

KELLY:  Totally incredible.   

KRAUTHAMMER:  Either deliberately so, or the same way that you get many, many cases, people mistake or mis-remember what they saw.  

KELLY:  Uh-huh.  And -- which is fine.  I mean, then you learn new information and you adjust your opinion.  

KRAUTHAMMER:  Right.

KELLY:  But in his case, he would not.  And it has -- it has an effect, because he has a very big microphone.  Charles it's great to see you, as always sir.   

KRAUTHAMMER:  My pleasure.   

KELLY:  Also tonight, the must-see story of two very different moms, both of whom lost their newborn babies and how they are now trying to help every couple who chooses to have a child.   

Plus, we'll speak next with the woman at the heart of a wild story about Donald Trump and a 1991 interview about his love life.   

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN MILLER:  Somebody that has a lot of options and frankly he gets called by everybody.  He gets called by everybody in the book, in terms of woman.   

SUE CARSWELL, PEOPLE MAGAZINE REPORTER:  Like who?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KELLY:  Tonight a wild story about Donald Trump and a 1991 interview about his love life.  The 25-year-old story is making headlines as the Washington Post goes digging through Trump's past and what it promises will be a series of reports uncovering every detail about his life.  

In moments, Howie Kurtz will join us on that.  But first, John Roberts first has the details.  John?  

JOHN ROBERTS, FOX NEWS NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT:  Megyn, back in 1991, "People" magazine writer Sue Carswell was looking for the scoop on Donald Trump leaving then girlfriend Marla Maples for Carla Bruni.  Carswell called Trump's headquarters, she was told that Trump wasn't available.  A short time later, she received a call from a fellow who identified himself as John Miller but sounded like awful lot like Donald Trump.   

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARSWELL:  What kind of comment is coming from, you know, your agency?   

JOHN MILLER:  Well it's just that he really decided that he wasn't, you know, he didn't want to make a commitment.  He didn't want to make a commitment.  He really thought it way too soon.  He's coming out of, you know, a marriage, and he is starting to do it tremendously well financially.  He's somebody that has a lot of options.  And frankly, you know, he gets called by everybody.  He gets called by everybody in the book in terms of women.   

CARSWELL:  Like who?

JOHN MILLER:  Well, he gets called by a lot of people.   

CARSWELL: You can't say, like, did Madonna ever really call?

MILLER: He was so set up with that. You know, Madonna called, and what happened -- I mean, I don't know if you want to listen to this...

CARSWELL: What is your position there?

MILLER: Well, I sort of handling P.R. because he get so much of it.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The voice is 25 years younger than today but the New York accent came in (ph) some speech an inflection on certain words thus sounded awful a lot like Trump. In fact, according to articles Carswell wrote at that time, gossip columnist Cindy Adams and Marla Maples herself identified the caller as Trump.

Despite those historical assertions which Trump must have known about as Carlswell says, he described it as a joke gone awry. He emphatically denied it was him in an interview this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, R-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: No, I don't think it -- I don't know anything about it. You're telling me about it for the first time and it doesn't sound like my voice at all. I have many, many people that are trying to imitate my voice and that you can imagine that and this sounds like one of the scams, on of the many scams. It doesn't sound like me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It may be that Maples misidentified Trump 25 years ago, though given the fallout from the call, which ended their relationship, Maples at that time, seemed to be on pretty solid ground, Megyn.

KELLY: OMG, OMG, OMG. Whoever John Miller maybe, we know one thing for sure, the reporter in that 1991 audio tape is right here with me. Joining me now Sue Carswell. She worked at People back when that tape was recorded and now she's a research reporter for Vanity Fair. Sue, great to see you.

CARLSWELL: Nice to see you Megyn.

KELLY: What the hell?

CARLSWELL: What the hell, hometown girl?

KELLY: So you believe it was Trump. He faked it, he faked being a P.R. person.

CARLSWELL: Well, he apologized afterwards and said he was sorry.

KELLY: So he admitted to you.

CARLSWELL: Yes, I mean in another phone call, but not during, obviously during the conversation.

KELLY: Did you say why did you do that?

CARLSWELL: Yeah, I mean, and he had no explanation. He just moves conversations, you know, conversations along.

KELLY: So you call up Marla Maples and say, "Is this is Trump? Was this Trump? He says he's John Miller.

CARLSWELL: Well, I was trying to be a little bit more delicate.

KELLY: What happened when you did that.

CARLSWELL: She cried.

KELLY: So he was saying I didn't want to give her a commitment.

CARLSWELL: Yeah, and he talked about, you know, Madonna being after him and Kim Basinger and just everyone calling. Carla (ph), I mean -- who didn't call?

KELLY: What did you -- and then he took you out after this?

CARLSWELL: Yes.

KELLY: As a form of apology for fooling you.

CARLSWELL: With Marla and another editor from People magazine.

KELLY: So -- okay. So that happened, and then when you heard him deny it because he's still denying it this morning on the "Today Show," what was your reaction?

CARLSWELL: I think he should come clean and apologize to me now.

KELLY: Because now it's suggesting that you misled us.

CARSLWELL: Yeah, that I'm lying. I'm not lying.

KELLY: His denial was, you know, it was -- that doesn't sound like me. It's interesting because if somebody called me up and said, you call and pretend to be your P.R. person. I would say no, I never did. I have never done something like that, ever. I wouldn't say that doesn't sound like me.

CARLSWELL: Right.

KELLY: So, you don't believe him. We're you surprised to see him misleading?

CARLSWELL: No, I'm not surprised to see him misleading, of course not. I mean, I would probably be a little shocked that this came into my life, but then the main thing here is that I didn't leak the tape and there are two people on the conversation.

KELLY: What? Wait, you taped it because you're a reporter doing the job.

CARLSWELL: Yeah, and I lost the tape.

KELLY: Were you the only one with a copy of the tape?

CARLSWELL: Yes.

KELLY: When did you lose it?

CARLSWELL: Back 25 years ago.

KELLY: Would somebody have stolen it?

CARLSWELL: No. It was in my house and then I moved apartments.

KELLY: So, who else would have had a copy of the tape?

CARLSWELL: Donald Trump.

KELLY: Wait a minute, so you're suggesting -- you're suggesting Trump leaked this to the Washington Post?

CARLSWELL: Yes.

KELLY: Why?

CARLSWELL: You got me. He has done stranger things.

KELLY: Because he loves publicity?

CARLSWELL: Yes.

KELLY: So you're suggesting that he may want us talking about this right now because it generates a new cycle, perhaps?

CARLSWELL: Hello, Donald.

(Laughter)

KELLY: Sue, it's been fascinating. Thank you. I will he see you up in Albany, our mutual hometown. Howie Kurtz is here.

KELLY: Ow, ow, ow, Howie.

HOWIE KURTZ, FOX NEWS MEDIA BUZZ HOST: Hold on, my head is spinning.

KELLY: If she -- she didn't have the tape -- as far as she knows she was the only one with the tape. Who else would have had the tape other than Trump?

KURTZ: A friend of hers, I have no idea.

KELLY: Or John Miller.

KURTZ: That sure sounds like Donald Trump, that I can tell you Megyn.

KELLY: It's tremendous. It was a tremendous imitation.

KURTZ: Look, this ancient audio tape isn't a big story. But it's so flipping weird that it's certainly news worthy. And Trump, you know, now that The Washington Post has obtained the recording, it's cat nip for cable TV all day because when has there ever been in history a presidential, heard under a bogus name, talking about his love life?

KELLY: No. But you know the thing is, Trump, he has a very healthy sense of humor. I mean, even about himself so like, why wouldn't he just come out and be like yeah, that was kind bone headed. I didn't use P.R. people like I don't now and I just thought it's kind of weird. Like he said, he could shoot somebody on Fifth Avenue and his supporters wouldn't abandon him. They wouldn't abandon him over this.

KURTZ: I can't figure it out because there's 20 different ways he could have diffused it with a joke or whatever. And instead to go through this with sure doesn't sound like me and it sounds like everyone else like Donald J. Trump. And then to chide NBC's Savanna Guthrie for asking about it and then to go after The Washington Post for reporting it. I don't really see why he went there.

KELLY: Yes.

KURTZ: I know he likes to take his whacks at the media when it is a story he doesn't like but it's really not that damaging a story. His fans aren't going to care and mostly it's kind of entertaining and amusing, but as they say, a little bit strange.

KELLY: Because today, after his interview with Savanna Guthrie, he was on the phone with The Washington Post, and they were 44 minutes into the phone interview talking about his finances when they asked him a question about John Miller. Did you ever employ someone named John Miller as a spokesperson? The phone went silent then dead. This is The Washington Post reporting this.

Then the report called back, reached Trump's secretary. She said, "I heard you got disconnected. He can't take the call now. I don't know what happened."  I mean it's like -- is he making this into a thing when it might otherwise be a curiosity but not a thing?

KURTZ: That's exactly it. This would have been a one day story, two days at most, everybody gets a laugh out of it. Look at the girlfriends, Marla Maples calling Bernie (ph), but by saying he doesn't think it's him and then doing that, and then criticizing the news organizations. Now, every other reporter whoever talked to John Miller or there's another pseudonym he's supposed to have used is going to come forward. I think he now stretches it to several days story maybe. He'd rather talk about this than the tax returns but...

KELLY: Well, you guys want to talk about that at Media Buzz. You got me this weekend after you interview me.

KURTZ: I've got you Megyn.

KELLY: Great to see you Howie. Still ahead a sneak peek from my big interview with Trump.  Plus, a powerful new campaign by two mothers who lost their infant sons. Don't miss this segment please.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I got the most terrible phone call that no parent ever wants to get. She just called and I said hello and she said, "get here quick, shepherd is not breathing." And my world fell apart.  

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KELLY: And now, to a powerful story that gave rise to a compelling campaign, one that could touch the lives of every working couple who chooses to have a child. Last year two mothers came face to face with unthinkable tragedy when they lost their infant sons in child care in two unrelated incidents. Amber Scorah and Alley Dodd say if the feds made one change, their sons might be here today.

Now, the two women are uniting and challenging Washington to do something. They are with us in moments. But first, Trace Gallagher has more on how they got here. Trace?

TRACE GALLAGHER, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Megyn, Amber Scorah gave birth last year and after maternity leave, she went back to her job at a New York publishing company to pay the bills. One morning last summer she took her son Carl to day care for the first time. When she came back to feed him three hours later Carl was on a changing table his lips and mouth blue, the day care owner performing CPR that Amber says was incorrect.

Carl didn't make it and his cause of death remains unknown. Alley Dodd from Oklahoma also had a son and also went back to work early to make ends meet. The first day she dropped 11-week old Shepherd at day care, she got a call saying he wasn't breathing. He had been left in unbuckled car seat in an empty room. He slipped down and suffocated. Now, this Oklahoma conservative and New York liberal are banding together to fight for job protected paid parental leave because they know their stories are not unusual.

Citing studies that show for each additional month that a woman has maternity leave, infant mortality goes down 13 percent. But America has the highest infant mortality rate of any industrialized nation and that 60 percent of sudden infant death syndrome cases happen in child care settings. In a New York Times op-ed, Amber Scorah writing, "This isn't about day care safety. This is isn't an indictment of the company I work for. I had one of the better parental leave policies of anyone I know.

What this is about is that my infant died in the care of a stranger when he should have been with me. Our culture demanded it.  But women are now calling on presidential candidates to publicly commit to taking action within their first 100 days in office. So far, their change.org petition has nearly 75,000 signatures. Megyn.

GALLAGHER: Trace, thank you. I'm joined now by Amber Scorah and Ali Dodd. Thank you both so much for being here. Let me start with you, Amber and the piece you wrote in the times, which was so powerful. And this is still new and it's still raw for both of you because you lost your son a year and a month ago and it's been not even a year for you.

AMBER SCORAH, INFANT SON DIED AT DAY CARE: Nope.

KELLY: So, I know this is hard to talk about. Let's just start with what happened on the day that you lost Carl. You dropped him off at day care. It was the first day?

SCORAH: Yeah, that's right. Like most parents, the first day at day care is always full of angst and I had been particularly anxious because I didn't feel ready to go back to work and I had tried to find other options to get a little more time. But ultimately, because of our circumstances, I couldn't quit my job.

So, I dropped him off and went to work. And then when I got back -- I was going to feed him at lunch -- I was expecting to see him smiling and excite to see me because that was the first time I had ever left him. And instead, I didn't know anything was wrong. But I had walked in. I guess the day care owner just discovered him unconscious and she was giving him CPR.

KELLY: There was no resuscitating him?

SCORAH: No.

KELLY: And you wrote in the Times piece, our sweet son died two and a half hours after the first time i left him. And your point -- both of your point is that you left him too early. That you felt you had no choice but to leave him too early as so many mothers feel because of the absence of paid leave.

SCORAH: Yeah, that's true. I mean, I definitely think what unites Ali and I in our stories is that we both -- of course I don't know for sure if things would have turned out differently if Carl had been with me that day. But we do feel that if we had had longer with our sons it's likely that maybe things would have turned out differently.

KELLY: And Ali, your son, Shepherd, died in similar circumstances. You left him at day care and he was placed in his car seat unsupervised, slipped down, and suffocated. You know, there was a lot about the process you did not know, but the one thing you did know is you were not ready to separate from him yet.

ALI DODD, INFANT SON DIED AT DAY CARE: But I had to. I knew that -- I had a date that I had to return to work. And if I didn't return to work, I would not only lose my job but also lose my health care for myself and my son's.

KELLY: So, it wasn't so much about the money exactly, it was the health benefits that you needed to hold on to.

DODD: It was a huge, I mean when you have a child, especially a baby, you've got your well checks, you've got -- you know things can go bad quickly in an instant. You want to make sure you get the very best care, and that's really why we're here talking about paid leave is because it's about the safety and well-being of our kids, and being able to provide that for them.

KELLY: How did you find out that something had happened with Shepherd?

DODD: I got the most terrible phone call that no parent ever wants to get. She just called, and I said hello and she said, "get here quick, shepherd's not breathing." And my world fell apart.

KELLY: You said he was big and he was healthy.

DODD: I had actually forgotten how big -- 17 pounds. He was huge. He was so strong. So healthy. There was no reason for this to happen to my family.

KELLY: Do you feel like if you had been with him, you know, if he hadn't been in the day care, it wouldn't have happened.

DODD: I think Amber and I both feel that way. And I think there are a lot of parents out there that feel that if they had more time with their children that we could prioritize our families and that we could make sure that we get them the best start in life.

KELLY: It's not about blaming day care. I mean this is a lot of parents are out there with their children in day care thinking oh, my god. It's not about that?

SCORAH: No. Our stories are the worst for every parent. And the vast majority of day care operators are wonderful. That's not what this is about. The point is that if we had longer with our sons, or if -- all of the millions of parents in america had longer, there wouldn't be in a situation where people that are even in worse situations than us have to go back to work after two weeks, which is what a quarter of American women have to do after they give birth.

KELLY: You say the risk that's incredible. It's incredible to have to go back to work two weeks after you give birth to your baby. There's something very wrong with that. You say the risk peaks between three and four months. So how long ideally could we get -- are you shooting for, for mothers to get paid leave?

SCORAH: I think, well, we're moms, we're not policy people but I think there is one advantage to America being one of the only two countries in the world without paid leave. And that is that there are a lot of examples and research studies done, some of those different countries that do have paid leave and there's a lot of evidence for when is the ideal time as far as both to do with infant death with reducing infant death and also have to do with the development.

KELLY: What are them?

SCORAH: There is a study that just game out from McGill University that says with every additional month of paid leave infant death rates go down 13 percent. So, I mean, obviously that's not infinite but --

KELLY: (Inaudible) as much as possible, but what is -- what is the argument to -- you know, because some people especially you are conservative so some conservatives will say you don't want more government mandates, you want to just shame companies into doing it.

DODD: So, I think from a conservative point of few, you have to look at paid leave from a family values stand point and realize that you are going to make the family stronger. You are going to make it safer. And this is -- paid leave and allowing parents to have more time with their children is going to do nothing but improve that situation and make sure that the health and well-being of that child is the best that it can be.

SCORAH: And not all companies respond to shame and not all companies can bank roll a paid leave. This is why we think it needs to be more of a national universal solution because...

KELLY: They can't bank roll it? Then what do they do? Because they say we are going to go out of business, that's what you get.

SCORAH: Yeah, I don't think I -- I've had a small business before. I don't think that small business can bank roll every employees paid leave, but if you look at New York State, they just passed the paid leave policy. That's excellent. It doesn't cost businesses a penny. For the employees it's a contribution of about a dollar a week and that is something that every small business could abide by, and it wouldn't be a burden.

KELLY: Obviously, you are both pregnant.

SCORAH: Yes.

KELLY: And I congratulate you on the new beginnings. I know there's no soothing balm to your loss, but thank you for being here and for talking with us about this.

DODD: Thank you for having us.

SCORAH: Thank you.

KELLY: We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KELLY: O.J. Simpson on FX was a huge success. Now, O.J.'s lawyer, Robert Shapiro speaks out after 20 years. The interview airs on my fox broadcast special Tuesday at 8:00. Here he is on the day before O.J. tried on that black glove in court.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT SHAPIRO, O.J. SIMPSON DEFENSE LAWYER: I tried the glove on. It was a little bit wide in my palm and a little bit long on my fingers. O.J. Simpson has enormous hands and I knew that that glove would not fit him.

KELLY: Really?

SHAPIRO: It wouldn't even be close.

KELLY: Did you feel in that moment when you put your hand in the glove that you were trying on the glove of the person who murdered these two people?

SHAPIRO: As you say it now, it is chilling but I was looking for one thing and one thing only, the size of that glove.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We the jury in the above entitled action find the defendant Orenthal James Simpson not guilty of the crime of murder.

KELLY: In that moment, the not guilty moment in the O.J. Simpson trial riveted the world. Do you think the not guilty verdict was a fair verdict?

SHAPIRO: There are two types of justice that we deal with in America. There's moral justice and there's legal justice. If you look at it from a moral point of view, a lot of people would say he absolutely did it. I deal in legal justice as you did as a lawyer, and that's proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

KELLY: Moments after the verdict, O.J. Simpson leaned over and whispered something in your ear. What did he say?  

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KELLY: What do you think of that Trump thing? He denies it was him. Was that his voice? Does anyone care? That was 25 years ago. Facebook.com/thekellyfile. On twitter @megynkelly. Have a great weekend. See you Monday.

END

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