Michael Moore's warning to Democrats: Take Trump seriously

Filmmaker goes on 'The Kelly File' to talk 2016 politics


This is a rush transcript from "The Kelly File," May 5, 2016. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

MEGYN KELLY, HOST: Breaking tonight, just 48 hours after Donald Trump effectively secures the Republican nomination, and he is back on the campaign trail. This time in West Virginia, trying to convince Democrats to abandon Hillary Clinton and laying the groundwork to defeat her this fall. Oh, a little good old John Denver.

Welcome to "The Kelly File." I'm Megyn Kelly. Now, you may recall Mrs. Clinton was dealt a significant setback earlier this week with West Virginia when she was confronted by an out of work coal miner on comments she made about putting coal miners out of business. Mrs. Clinton said she misspoke. But Beau Copley (ph) was not buying it. And earlier tonight he received a hero's welcome at a Trump rally. You can't see him in this video we're going to show you. But just watch what happened when a Trump campaign staffer told the crowd he was there.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't know if any of you were watching television when we had this lady go to Southern West Virginia to tell us, I think her quote before was, I'm going to put a lot of coal miners and coal companies out of work.


But there was a courageous guy there that sat at that table in Williamson, I believe, and asked her a question.


His name is Beau Copley. Is Beau here? Could you stand up and be recognized?



KELLY: Well, now we are seeing reports that suggest Appalachia is swinging from Clinton country to Trump, as the businessman continues to connect with the working class. In moments, we'll talk about -- that was Michael Moore, a Bernie Sanders supporter who says Democrats have reason to be concerned about Mr. Trump's chances.

But we begin tonight with Trace Gallagher reporting from our West Coast Newsroom. Trace?

TRACE GALLAGHER, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Megyn, Donald Trump is trying to convince West Virginia voters that he's dead serious about supporting coal and bringing back jobs. And as the political pendulum swings, he is gaining a captive audience. Consider that in 1992 Bill Clinton dominated coal country, so much so that in many counties along the Appalachian Mountains, Clinton won 70 percent of the vote. But there is clearly a Democratic decay, erosion that was helped along by the Obama administration declaring war on coal. With the President vowing to bankrupt new coal plants. And then Hillary Clinton appearing to double down saying, quote, "We are going to put a lot of coal miners and coal companies out of business." Clinton called her comment a misstatement, but Trump won't soon let her forget. Watch.


DONALD TRUMP, R-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: See, I'm going to put the miners back to work. And she said, I'm going to put the miners and the mines out of business. And then she comes over and she tried to explain her statement. That's a tough one to explain.


GALLAGHER: And it's not just coal. Trump is also vowing to rebuild industries like steel and manufacturing in an effort to put the rust belt back in play for Republicans. And a new poll by the Pew Research Center showed that 49 percent of voters believes that U.S. involvement in the global economy lowers wages and cost jobs. Forty four percent think global engagement is a good thing. It's interesting because in the primaries Republicans who want less global trade largely supported Donald Trump.  Democrats who want less global trade largely supported Bernie Sanders, an indication that Hillary Clinton has some catching up to do there as well -- Megyn.

KELLY: Uh-hm. Trace, thank you. Well, my next guest has warned Democrats they better take Mr. Trump seriously because of his appeal to working class voters like these miners. Michael Moore is an Oscar winning filmmaker and director of "Where to Invade Next," which is out Tuesday on demand on DVD and iTunes. Michael, great to see you again.

MICHAEL MOORE, OSCAR WINNING FILMMAKER: And poster boy at FOX News. Don't forget that.  

KELLY: Right. That's actually right. You're practically the co-host.  Good to see you.  

MOORE: Thanks for having me back.  

KELLY: So, what do you mean by that, the Democrats don't take Trump seriously at their own peril?

MOORE: Well, I've taken him seriously. I mean, I felt last fall that he would be the Republican nominee. I think that a lot of people just treated it as a joke. And yes, it's funny and I laugh at all the jokes. But I would not -- I would -- he says things. He goes to places where I'm from like Michigan, Pennsylvania, Ohio, et cetera, and tells them that Apple should be building those iPhones in the U.S., and not China.

KELLY: Uh-hm.

MOORE: That sounds very good.  

KELLY: Goes to Syracuse where I grew up, the first nine years and says, carrier shouldn't be moving out of that plan out of Syracuse.  

MOORE: Exactly. Ford says, they're going to move their factory to Mexico, he says I'm going to put some big tariffs on those cars if you think you're going to bring them back in here.

KELLY: So, very appealing.  

MOORE: So, yes. All of that is very appealing. I also don't think it's true. I also think that Donald Trump is a big believer in capitalism and free enterprise and the sort of thing that's driven us into the ground, this belief that you can just do whatever you want and it doesn't matter who gets hurt by it. And I don't really see him changing, but I think he knows -- he's been on TV, you know? I mean, he's a performance artist. He knows what to say and he knows how to make this appeal.  

KELLY: You think it's b.s.?

MOORE: I think it's -- well, please, I don't use that kind of language.  But yes, I -- Megyn, come on, I know, this is the flagship show of FOX News.  

KELLY: Oh, well, thank you.  

MOORE: I want to go on the record. Well, we all know that.

KELLY: Like the way you make me sound. Go on.

MOORE: Well, it is. Listen, just the fact you and I sitting here, we've lowered the age demographic by at least 36 years.  

KELLY: What are you saying about? What do you mean? Are you ripping on my 100-year-old man watching THE KELLY FILE?  

MOORE: No. No. They're very important. But I think FOX is going to commercial for at least soon -- probably sooner than I expected.  

KELLY: Not at all. The floor is yours.  

MOORE: They've got to sell something. And I just listen, I think that everybody -- I think everybody now is taking Donald Trump very seriously.  

KELLY: Yes.  

MOORE: And everybody who thought he was a joke last summer --

KELLY: Has been proven wrong.  

MOORE: No way is this going to happen. Right. So nobody should treat it like it's a joke now.  

KELLY: So, as a Bernie Sanders supporter --


KELLY: I mean, do you believe that he's all but out?

MOORE: No. I don't believe it's over.  

KELLY: You still think he can still take the nomination.  

MOORE: Well, I think he's won 18 states. He's ahead in six of the last nine primaries.  

KELLY: But mathematically he's been ruled out.  

MOORE: That will be 24 -- no, mathematically he has not been ruled out.  Plus, I think that there's also -- there's these two big elephants in the room with both Trump and Clinton. And we don't know what's going to happen between now and the convention because there are these issues. I think it was reported on the news earlier this evening that her personal assistant has now been interrogated by the FBI. They've given immunity --

KELLY: So, you're counting on the FBI primary to get your guy --

MOORE: Well, no. No, I hope not. I'm with Sanders when he says enough with the damn e-mails. I don't care about the e-mails. I don't care about that at all. I'm just saying Trump is being investigated by the IRS. He's got these other things going on. Hillary has things going on. We don't really know -- in this year of all years, how can we predict what's going to happen in the next few months?

KELLY: Let's say, let's say -- well, you can predict because, you know, I mean --

MOORE: Nobody could predict Trump. Nobody could predict that a Democratic socialist would win 45 percent of the pledge delegates to this point.

KELLY: Correct.

MOORE: And head in the polls, of the final months primaries coming up.  He's ahead of six of them.  

KELLY: But you and I both know that the super delegates are not going to let Bernie Sanders get this nomination. They're going to get behind --

MOORE: I don't know anything anymore.  

KELLY: I know. I'm not a pundit. That's what they tell me. So, here's my question to you.


KELLY: So, let's say it is Trump/Clinton. As a Sanders supporter but, you know, a guy who understands the working class, has made some films involving them, from Flint, Michigan, could you ever get behind Donald Trump?

MOORE: Only to help push him somewhere. Wait a minute. I can't say it.  He has Secret Service protection now. I shouldn't say that.  

KELLY: You'll be the one getting pushed.  

MOORE: No. I would push him into a more gentle place away from everybody.  

KELLY: So never, never Trump?

MOORE: Absolutely. Are you kidding me?

KELLY: There are some Sanders supporters, a small number, who say they would consider Donald Trump.  

MOORE: This man eats pizza with a fork. All right? How could anybody in the right mind --

KELLY: I thought that was John Kasich.  

MOORE: No, no. That was -- well, that was Trump in a previous election.  

KELLY: I don't think Trump eats pizza with a fork. He's a lifetime New Yorker, he's from Queens. That's impossible.  

MOORE: Well, that's why -- see that's the problem here with Trump, isn't it? Because I've lived for 25 years between Michigan and New York. I'm one of those people that summer here and winter in Michigan. Don't explain it.

KELLY: You mean that one person.  

MOORE: That's right. But you and I know because we've known Trump for how many years. I've been on shows with Trump back in the '90s. I mean, this is a guy who did support Planned Parenthood, who was for gay rights. Who, you know, yes, he was a big blow hard and he wanted his name and everything but he also put the ice skating rink back in Central Park.  

KELLY: That's right.

MOORE: So, you know, he's not what he's made himself out to be to these people who vote for him.  

KELLY: So couldn't a guy like you get behind him?

MOORE: No. His problem is going to be when he tries to walk back all the crazy stuff that he said, what's going to happen to all the people who voted for that crazy stuff?

KELLY: You think they'll going to abandon Trump?

MOORE: I think Trump -- I should say I hope that we see the biggest landslide loss ever when whoever the Democratic nominee is beats Donald Trump.  

KELLY: You know that they're banking on that even though he might lose some women, he might lose some Hispanics, he might some young people, some African-American vote --

MOORE: Right.

KELLY: He's going to make it up with the White working class, with the very region he's now touring through Appalachia and elsewhere, because he's appealing to them and because Hillary Clinton has made some mistakes already like the things she said about I'm going to out the coal miners out of business.  

MOORE: Here's the Math problem. Nineteen percent, that's all, 19 percent of the country are White guys over the age of 35. That's it. We only make up 19 percent of the country. And a number of those 19 percent are me. So he's got a big problem. Eighty one percent of the country is either female, people of color or young adults between the ages of 18 and 35. He has offended each of these groups to such a significant degree that he can't win a majority of those groups, and they are 81 percent of the country. So the math isn't with him. But having said that, that what he has on his side is that Republicans -- and this is one thing I admire about Republicans -- they get up in the morning and vote. They will be at their polls at 6:0 a.m. My side, we only see 6:00 a.m. If we've been partying all night, you know?

KELLY: Does that happen?

MOORE: Does what happen?

KELLY: The partying all night on the far left side.  

MOORE: I have photos if you'd like to see.  

KELLY: No. I don't need to see that. No one needs to see that.  

MOORE: That's right. We are on a family network. But seriously, I think that the problem here is that my side, such as you want to describe it -- it's a crazy, wild, lots of different kind of people on this side of the political fence. But we are the majority of the country now. And they know that. The other side knows that they've lost the culture war. Gays can get married. You know, people in most states can use the bathroom that they think they should be in.  

KELLY: And Trump is not the warrior to reverse any of that. Nor does he pretend to be.  

MOORE: Well, that's why he's going to try to get a lot of people in the mushy middle to be with him. Because he's going to walk back some of his craziness.  

KELLY: Well, what worries you if anything about Hillary? I mean, other than the FBI primary, what worries you?

MOORE: My fear is that if she was president that we would find ourselves in another war. She voted for the Iraq war. Her whole --

KELLY: You think she's more of a hawk than Trump?

MOORE: I don't know. I was just going to say more than Obama. She's more of a hawk than Obama.  

KELLY: What did you think when you heard Trump saying, you know, Bush lied to get us into the Iraq war and knew about 9/11 before? I mean, that sounded like you.  

MOORE: Well, no. I don't think he said -- I didn't say that. I was against the Iraq war. I turned out to be right. I was in a minority at the time. And I was lambasted significantly on a certain particular network.  

KELLY: Do you believe that Bush lied to get us into the Iraq war?

MOORE: No. I believe that he was asleep at the wheel. I believe --  

KELLY: You don't believe that there was conscience malfeasance to lie and --  

MOORE: He was incompetent. He received on August 6th a month before 9/11 --

KELLY: I know. I know.  

MOORE: He received a report that said Osama bin Laden to attack the United States.  

KELLY: I'm trying to distinguish between a competence and malfeasance.  

MOORE: Yes, do you want me to explain the difference to you?

KELLY: No, I understand.


MOORE: I have a dictionary in my back pocket, too.  

KELLY: So, Mike, Trump at a debate actually accused --

MOORE: You went to college. I didn't.  

KELLY: -- George W. Bush of willingly lying to get us into the Iraq war.  And if you're not willing to go that far, it's interesting because you and Trump are further down the scale. He's farther down the scale to the left on that issue than you are.  

MOORE: Well, I would never call him on the Left. What I think is is that I think that Bush's administration lied about the weapons of mass destruction. I think they knew that those weapons were not there. And for that particular thing they did lie about that.  

KELLY: Thank, God! Then you're not. He's not. He's tied with you on the scale. I got to go --

MOORE: He's not anywhere near me. And I'll tell you, he's, you know, if everybody gets up at 6:00 a.m. on election day in November, he's not going to make it. Believe me. Biggest landslide loss ever Donald Trump.  

KELLY: This is the DVD "Where to Invade Next".  

MOORE: Oh, I know that movie. I made that movie.  

KELLY: Trump says you don't have to worry about this with him because he says, he's the guy who doesn't want to start all these wars. I have to leave it at that. Always a pleasure, Mr. Moore.  

MOORE: Okay. Thank you for having me on, Megyn. And listen, whatever you decide to do, you're like the LeBron James here at FOX News. You're a free agent, you know, year to year. I've read the gossip columns. You might be going to maybe the ABC, whatever.

KELLY: Oh, wow, you know more than I do.  

MOORE: Yes, I know many things, one that Trump is going to lose and you won't be here for very long.  

KELLY: Oh, wow, what have you heard?

MOORE: Get a good agent, a good lawyer and you'll going to be fine.  

KELLY: All right. After you go, my guys are going to explain to me the LeBron James reference because they know I know nothing about sports. I know he's a good basketball player. That's it.

MOORE: -- to Roger Ailes office. Roger, I'm just kidding!


She's staying! Good-bye, it's over between us. Until the next time.  

MOORE: Until the next time. Thank you very much.  

KELLY: Great to see you. Thanks for being here.  

MOORE: All right.

KELLY: Well, just hours before this West Virginia rally we've been looking at, House Speaker Paul Ryan dropped a bit of a bombshell on the Trump campaign. And the number two man at the RNC is next on that.  

Plus, Donald Trump tweets about his love for a good taco salad and the Clinton team unloads with some spicy hot attacks.  

We've got folks from both camps here tonight as the fajitas get ready to fly.  

And then a new case of free speech silenced on campus as students in one university are encouraged to be, quote, "Social justice warriors." Your tuition dollars hard at work. Stay tuned.



PAUL MANAFORT, TRUMP CAMPAIGN TOP STRATEGIST: We're going to have a positive convention. We're not going to be dealing with the kinds of problems that the Democrats will be dealing with at their convention and Donald Trump will have the time to put together the general campaign structure, the work with the RNC.  


KELLY: That was Trump Campaign Convention Manager Paul Manafort on THE KELLY FILE last night suggesting the presumptive Republican nominee has plenty of time to work with the RNC before July's convention. But today the "New York Times" painted a different picture reporting that some staff members at the RNC were told that if they're unable to get behind the current nominee they should leave by the end of the week. And that was before we heard this from House Speaker Paul Ryan just a few hours ago.


JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: You have said throughout this process that you will support the Republican presidential nominee. Now you have a presumptive nominee, Donald Trump. Will you support him?

REP. PAUL RYAN, R-WIS., SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: Well, to be perfectly candid with you, Jake, I'm just not ready to do that at this point. I'm not there right now. There are lots of questions that conservatives I think are going to want answers to, myself included. And I want to be part of this unifying process.  


KELLY: Joining me now, Sean Spicer, who is communications director and chief strategist for the RNC. Sean, good to see you.


KELLY: So, let's start with the "New York Times" report. You actually sent out a message saying it wasn't true. But are you suggesting that the "New York Times" got it flat wrong, that no one --

SPICER: No, no, I'm not suggesting it. I'm going to say it. It was 100 percent false. It was made up. There was no such meeting that talked about a nominee or Mr. Trump or anything. So, it was patently false.  We've asked for a correction, frankly we've demanded a correction. This is the "New York Times" making up news. And I guess it is provocative and it probably got them some clicks but it's just downright bad journalism when you make up news.  

KELLY: What about -- let's talk about Paul Ryan.  

SPICER: Sure.  

KELLY: Because, you know, the party wants unity and there you have one of if not the most powerful Republican in the country refusing to give it.

SPICER: Well, he talked about -- if you listen to what Speaker Ryan said throughout the interview, his goal is to get there. I think he also talks about the fact that he, like myself and most folks that have been paying close attention to this process, believe we definitely go to June 7th. Ted Cruz made it clear that he wanted to stay in. That there was no way that Donald Trump and he still can't get the requisite 1237 delegates to officially become the presumptive nominee of our party. So, there was an assumption that we would have a lot more time. We're fortunate that we've got the time now to unify quicker and the focus on the general election.  But I think Speaker Ryan and Mr. Trump from all of our reports are going to sit down next week and talk about what they need to hear from each other, where things stand --  

KELLY: Wait, did you say Trump can't get to 1237?

SPICER: No, I said not until June 7th. He has to get up to 1237 --

KELLY: Yes. But there's nobody else is in the race. He's the presumptive Republican nominee, right?

SPICER: No, no. He will be the presumptive nominee on June 7th. That's exactly what we said the other night.  

KELLY: Come on! That doesn't prevent Paul Ryan from saying he'll support him.  

SPICER: No, no, no. Megyn, hold on. I didn't say that. What I said is, no one expected us to have a presumptive nominee until June 7th.

KELLY: But I get that. But then he agreed -- but then Paul Ryan agreed to go on CNN with Jake Tapper and knew he'd be asked about Trump. So, you're telling me he doesn't get -- like he was just caught off guard? Nobody believe that's, Sean. He said that for a reason.  

SPICER: Maybe he did. All I can tell you is from that what I understand, the two individuals are going to meet next week, talk about the concerns that they have, the issues that they need to be raised.  

KELLY: What are the issues? What are the issues between them?

SPICER: I don't know. I don't speak for Paul Ryan and I know that Mr. Trump has --  

KELLY: You speak for the RNC.

SPICER: Great! But we're not part -- I don't have a problem. You're not hearing me have a problem with Paul Ryan's agenda or Mr. Trump's issues right now. It's between the two of them. They're going to sit down and iron them out. We've had a bloody primary where people have gone at it. I think right now there's a call for unity. Mr. Trump acknowledged that the other night. Chairman Priebus acknowledge that on the tweet on Tuesday night that the party needs to unify. Look, we had 17 great candidates that went at it pretty well.

You were part of the process. You saw these guys going at it. Now we have the opportunity to sit back as a party, come together and understand the big picture which is defeating Hillary Clinton in November. More people participated in this process than ever before. That's a great thing for the party. But tensions were high and passions were there. Some people really had it for -- had a passion for one or two particular candidates at different times. And now we need to come together.

KELLY: And Paul Ryan -- he's undecided, I mean, he has got two choices right now, Trump and Hillary Clinton. And he chose undecided today.  

SPICER: No. What Paul Ryan said is, I want to get there, I want to talk to him about the issues. So, he's going to do that, and I feel very confident he wants to do it, he understands the importance of party unity.  Mr. Trump said the same on Tuesday night. But look, we're 48 hours out of Indiana where this came kind of as a shock.  

KELLY: I get that. I get that. But I mean, the reality, the reality is what it is, right?

SPICER: Right.

KELLY: So, it's like we know -- we're going to come together. I got to go.

SPICER: Look at the reality. We're here. The Democrats are still fighting it out. We will be unified going into Cleveland, coming out and focused in November. I promise you it is going to be a great convention and the Democrats are going to have the big problems in Philadelphia.  

KELLY: All right. Great to see you, Sean. Thanks for being here.

SPICER: Good to see you.

KELLY: Joining me now with more, FOX News digital politics editor Chris Stirewalt. Okay, what did you think of that?

CHRIS STIREWALT, FOX NEWS DIGITAL POLITICS EDITOR: Popcorn. I'll tell you what, this show is a freight train today. I'm just sitting here taking it in.  

KELLY: West Virginia, that is your hometown.

STIREWALT: Those are my people. I'm not messing with you, counselor.  It's not tonight.

KELLY: I'm feeling kind of a frisky. Is frisky the word?



STIREWALT: Something. Whatever.

KELLY: So, seriously, I mean, Paul Ryan has two choices, and you know, he didn't exactly say Never Trump.


KELLY: But, you know, in what world does the House Speaker who is a Republican not say, yes, I'm going to get behind the nominee. It just underscores the weirdness of the Trump candidacy, the Trump victory, and the position the party is in right now.  

STIREWALT: And the fact that Donald Trump is not running as a traditional Republican. Right? He is running as you heard his speech on Tuesday night, what was he talking about? He was talking about issues, some of which is on Hillary's left. You and Michael Moore were talking about it.  He is less hawkish than her, he is to the left of Hillary Clinton on foreign policy and interventionism. He talked about his desires to spend more on domestic projects in the United States. So, infrastructure spending, more dovish -- if not dovish but less interventionist foreign policy. Those things. And then against free trade, those are things that Paul Ryan -- those are core beliefs that people like Paul Ryan have. So they have nine weeks to the convention.  

KELLY: And not just that, Stirewalt. But look at the Republican Party platform. You know, these things they agreeing on and then that's their standard bearer, the nominee.

STIREWALT: I'm going to ignore it. Right.

KELLY: I mean, it's pro-life, it's pro-life without exceptions, if I'm not mistaken, no rape, no incest exception. He favors those. It certainly doesn't praise Planned Parenthood. So, I'm not saying this to be critical or not of Donald Trump. I'm saying there's a clear divide between the party who is going to organize this convention along with Mr. Trump and their nominee. And you could hear some of that with Paul Ryan saying, hmm, well, you know, I'll call you.

STIREWALT: So, call me maybe. They're trying to control, they're trying to bring Trump to heal. Now, remember, they have the money. He needs the dough. He has got to build out his operation. Fast, fast, fast --

KELLY: He said today he's going to need the dough. He is not going to self-fund.  

STIREWALT: Needs it bad. And in order to get that money, he has to get the Republicans -- now, he has got a guy who is a Democratic fundraiser that he's bringing in as his finance guy. But he's going to need raise money from a lot of traditional Republican sources, and basically Paul Ryan is saying this is the cost. If you want the dough that you need to contest the general election, you are going to have to come to the right on some of these issues, you're going to have to not run as a Democrat. But that's how he loses. If he runs as a traditional Republican, he will get ruined.  

KELLY: Right. I think we've seen that the party has been unable to outsmart Trump. I mean, have we not learned that lesson over the past year?

STIREWALT: They're in the boat. He's the shark. And they think that they're hunting him. He's hunting them.

KELLY: Thank you, Mr. Stirewalt.

STIREWALT: Yes, ma'am.  

KELLY: He always brings it home, doesn't he? It's just the right way of putting things.  

Well, we also have new fallout tonight from a Trump tweet about Cinco de Mayo and how it is drawing serious fire now from the Clinton campaign. And wait until you see what was under that bowl. We have folks representing both cams with us next.

Plus, an interview you will not want to miss. Watch this, the crew, we were all mesmerized by this. The father of scientology leader David Miscavige is here with new insights on the church, how he escaped, and why he calls his own son ruthless.


KELLY: Did you ever go to David and say, what are you doing?

RON MISCAVIGE, FATHER OF SCIENTOLOGY LEADER DAVID MISCAVIGE: Believe me when I tell you that would have been such an improper question I would have never said it.  

KELLY: Why?  



KELLY: Welcome back, everybody. There is a new Trump tweet tonight under attack from the Hillary camp.

In a message sent just hours ago, Mr. Trump is seen eating a Taco bowl at his desk in Trump tower and he writes "Happy Cinco de Mayo, the best Taco bowls are made in Trump tower grill. I love Hispanics!" Exclamation point.

Ms. Clinton then responded on Twitter by suggesting "Mr. Trump wants to deport all Hispanics not just the ones here illegally and now some are saying they have been offended."

Joining me now, Katrina Pierson, national spokesperson for the Trump campaign, and Robert Zimmerman, DNC committee member and democratic strategist. Good to see you both. Congrats on your victory.


KELLY: OK, so democratic senator from Connecticut tweets out, "This is a joke, right? This whole thing is a joke." People taking offense at the Taco bowl/Hispanic link on Cinco de Mayo. Your thoughts.

PIERSON: People take offense to everything Mr. Trump does. It's Cinco de Mayo. He's touting the food at his grill and I can probably give you a hundred different instances where Mr. Trump says I love Hispanics. He says "I love everyone" all the time. I understand it's politically incorrect...


ROBERT ZIMMERMAN, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Come on, Katrina. It's like the Ayatollah having masterful suit and claiming he loves Jews. It's just -- come on.

PIERSON: Is it? No, that's not the case, so.

ZIMMERMAN: Let's be serious. Donald Trump has been advocating a policy and an agenda, repeating the worst, most horrible bigoted stereotypes against Mexicans, advocating deportation of undocumented workers and of course advocating a religious law to keep people out of this country. Even the leading conservatives of our country are condemning the Trump's strategy and the Trump agenda.

KELLY: Robert, her tweet today which says, "I love Hispanics," Trump 52 minutes ago, "They're going to be deported," Trump yesterday is not exactly correct. He never says he's going to deport all Hispanics.

ZIMMERMAN: Well, remember, when you're deporting undocumented people, you're also forcing their families who are here legally to go with them. Unless you want to -- unless Donald Trump wants to break up the families.


PIERSON: But let me point out. Let me point out. This is also the current law...


KELLY: OK. Go ahead.

PIERSON: ... this is also the current law of the United States. Because politicians have failed miserably for decades, someone that wants to enforce the law all of a sudden is racist and bigoted? Absolutely not.

Mr. Trump posted a tweet celebrating Cinco de Mayo touted the food at his own grill and said I love Hispanics. He said I love to meet with them. And the statistics that he showed regarding some of the immigrants coming into this country, those are Department of Homeland and Security...


KELLY: People are saying they're ticked off, they're saying they're ticked off because not all, among other reasons, not all Hispanics are Mexicans. And so, they...


ZIMMERMAN: Absolutely. And very frankly, it comes up Mexicans being rapists and murderers is also ugly in the sense they've been bigoted.


PIERSON: Take that up with homeland -- the Department of Homeland Security.

ZIMMERMAN: There is no fact that justify that happen hate mongering.

KELLY: He's viewed unfavorably by Hispanics, 7 out of 10 Hispanics says the latest Washington Post/ABC News poll.


KELLY: There was a poll done a couple of months before that showed it even higher. How does he get out from under that? I'll start with you on that, Katrina?

PIERSON: What he's going to do is continue to draw the contrast of Trump's vision of America and Hillary Clinton's vision of America. So, what we think...


KELLY: Because they're not going to vote on the economy. They're not going to vote on language.

PIERSON: Absolutely. They want jobs. They want quality education. They don't want what they've had this whole time. Hillary Clinton's message is old and it hasn't worked. She's been saying the same thing for 40 years. Her husband was the president for two terms. She was Secretary of State. Things are worst today.


ZIMMERMAN: Actually, as a matter of fact what Donald Trump has accomplished -- what Donald Trump has accomplished is in fact he has united republicans with democrats behind Hillary Clinton.

Here's not -- you're seeing her numbers excel not just amongst Hispanics, amongst women, amongst people of color, amongst the mainstream. And that's what I think is so unique about the Trump candidacy. The fact that it's been so divisive you now see leading republicans standing, either ignoring his candidacy or many standing with Secretary Clinton.


PIERSON: If that were true, Megyn, and I definitely want to get to that. If that were true you wouldn't see liberals coming out on every network in fear of Trump winning states that are supposed to go to democrat. Donald Trump is appealing to republicans, to democrats and new voters.


ZIMMERMAN: Because you don't -- he can't be complaisant. That's the whole point.

KELLY: Even Michael Moore said that.

ZIMMERMAN: That's right.

KELLY: I'm almost out of time, what did you think of that, Paul Ryan.

PIERSON: With regard to Paul Ryan, I mean, he's absolutely right. Mr. Trump's another statement saying, we don't want to get on board with the Paul Ryan agenda. You can't say you're anti-spending and limited government and then grow government exponentially and high-five the trillion-dollar on the...


ZIMMERMAN: But you have to respect the Constitution.

KELLY: OK. I've got to go.


KELLY: But I can't let you go without asking you why underneath the Taco bowl there was a picture of Marla Maples, Trump's ex-wife...


ZIMMERMAN: In a bikini.

KELLY: ... who is actually in People magazine. I think you just said People magazine.

PIERSON: It was People magazine.

KELLY: Yes, yes. It sounded -- it sounded more interesting. Of course, the internet sleuths started to look at everything.

PIERSON: Always. Always.

KELLY: And they were like, Marla Maples in a bathing suit! But she's in People magazine. So, there you go. Great to see you both.

ZIMMERMAN: Good to be with you.


KELLY: Well, we also have an eye-opening report tonight on what is really happening with students at a major university. Plus, a must-see, must-see interview with the father of the Scientology leader David Miscavige. His father is here next on why he says he had to escape from the church.


KELLY: Well, first on The Kelly File, new claims about the secretive inner workings of the Church of Scientology and David Miscavige, the man who's been its leader for the past 30 years.

While the church has had its share of critics, this time the attacks come from someone who is very close to the story, Ron Miscavige, David's father. Earlier I spoke with him about his new book "Ruthless, Scientology, My Son, David Miscavige and Me." Ron, thank you very much for being here.

RON MISCAVIGE, SCIENTOLOGY LEADER: I appreciate you asking me.

KELLY: How long were you in Scientology?

MISCAVIGE: From the time I got in, which was about 1970, it would have been about 42 years.


MISCAVIGE: But I was on staff for 26.5 years.

KELLY: You were in the so-called sea elevation, which is the elevated part of scientology.

MISCAVIGE: That's right. Yes. That would be the equivalent of priesthood, let's say on the Catholic religion.

KELLY: You're not supposed to have children and see important rules. But did you know L. Ron Hubbard?

MISCAVIGE: I never met him.



KELLY: So, you got involved and you got your son David involved.

MISCAVIGE: Absolutely.

KELLY: When he was how old?


KELLY: OK. And so, you said that by the time he got to be what, 12, 13? He was studying scientology almost exclusively?

MISCAVIGE: Yes. He was like a phenomenon. He took to this like a fish to water.

KELLY: Tell us about the religion as a whole because it's obviously controversial.


KELLY: It's done -- it's done a lot of people a lot of good.


KELLY: And one of its core messages is, if you have a negative influence in your life, you can shut that negative influence out.


KELLY: And focus on the positive and move forward.


KELLY: However, it's controversial because you write in your book about abusing people.


KELLY: Tell us about that.

MISCAVIGE: Well, the actual philosophy of scientology is not something I'm against. Like I don't want to condemn it. And I don't condemn it because when you first get in, we're talking about at the bottom of the bridge, the whole thing is called a bridge to total freedom.

At the bottom level, you take courses and you do drills and exercises on communication. You can get counseling or what we call auditing that will help you with your interpersonal relationships.

KELLY: And they have files on everybody who has done these auditing sessions.

MISCAVIGE: Absolutely.

KELLY: So, John Travolta, Tom Cruise.

MISCAVIGE: Absolutely. Not even a question about it.

KELLY: What about there's something called the hole where they put people who they believe need discipline.


KELLY: And according to your book, physical beatings are a part of being in the hole.

MISCAVIGE: That I don't know about. I do know this, that the people in the hole would spend all day confessing their sins and some of the people in there, if they weren't getting what they thought was the sins out of the person, they would resort to physical things.

KELLY: Is it true if you get sent to the hole you have to clean the floor with your tongue?

MISCAVIGE: I heard that one guy did, cleaned the bathroom with his tongue, yes. I didn't see this, but I heard it from reliable sources, though.

KELLY: Did you ever go to David and say, what are you doing?

MISCAVIGE: Believe me when I tell you that would have been such an improper question, I would have never said it.


MISCAVIGE: You just -- you just didn't do it. He was like the supreme leader. You didn't challenge him on anything.

KELLY: Your own son.

MISCAVIGE: My own son. Listen, he called me Ron. He didn't call me dad. He sent me presents and he would send me a card that said "dad." But in person it was Ron. When I was there, I was a staff member. I was not his father. Except on my birthday.

And truthfully he would usually give me a nice spread from a very nice restaurant in L.A. and sent down to where we were, give me nice presents. I appreciated that, but I would never challenge him. Ever.

And I'm going to tell you he wasn't always that way, Megyn. When he was a kid, he was a loveable little kid. I mean, he had a great sense of humor. We got along great. And he was a smart kid. We would pull jokes at times. He went from that like this, all right, from Dr. Jekyll to Mr. Hyde.

KELLY: Let me ask you because you admit that you abused your first wife.

MISCAVIGE: Absolutely. I have no excuses.

KELLY: That you punched her.


KELLY: Repeatedly.

MISCAVIGE: No, not repeatedly and never in the face and never like beating her up like has been said about me. We would...


KELLY: Well, how many times did you?

MISCAVIGE: I don't know. Maybe all the time over a 10-year period would happen maybe once a month or something like that. I know what my daughters said. They also said that I beat them up with my fists, which is a complete lie.

KELLY: Well, what is punching?

MISCAVIGE: I never punched my daughters.

KELLY: Just your wife.

MISCAVIGE: In the arm or in the back. Look, I regret it. I don't know what to say to you. I'm not making excuses for it. It was a horrible thing. When I got in scientology, the day I got in scientology, I realized I had what's called a case. I realized that I was dramatizing things that I saw when I was a kid growing up in the cold region. There was never any touching after that.

KELLY: So they discourage that, scientology discourages that kind of abuse.

MISCAVIGE: Absolutely.

KELLY: And after having been in scientology for 40-plus years...


KELLY: ... you decided to leave. And the word you use is is to "escape".

MISCAVIGE: That's correct.

KELLY: Why did you have to escape?

MISCAVIGE: Megyn, you cannot walk out that gate. Here's the life I was living. If you wanted to send a letter to somebody, you had to let the envelope open with the stamp on it and you'd send it to security. They would read it.

If it was OK, they'd seal it and send it out. If it wasn't, you'd get it back and it would tell you, you can't say these things.

KELLY: Where were you living?

MISCAVIGE: On a compound.

KELLY: So everything is controlled.

MISCAVIGE: Everything is controlled. You don't have a telephone. You go through a switch board operator. If you were to make a call, there is another person listening on the other end of the call.

When my brother died and my nephew Girard told me about it, I had Crystal Simmons listening on the extension. When my nephew told me, my dad's dad. God damn, you couldn't go off the base to get a pair of underwear, go to Wal-Mart.

KELLY: So, how did you escape?

MISCAVIGE: Well, it's a hell of a story. I've got to tell you because we planned it for about six months. And my biggest cover on it was the fact that I was 76 years old and I was David's father. Nobody would have accepted -- excuse me, expected me to escape.

That Sunday morning, which was March 25, 2012, I went to a far -- a remote gate. There was two gates. One was the main booth where the security was and then there was one a little farther down where they just had a camera there to see who you were and you pressed a button. And if they recognize you, they may ask, where are you going? What are you doing?

I went to that and pressed the button. On the way over to there, there were two people, two security guards on duty. There was one guy who was in our galley who was eating breakfast. And he had what they call the chase car, which is used to go after anybody if they were trying to escape. I know.

KELLY: They're going to chase you down.

MISCAVIGE: Absolutely. Absolutely.

KELLY: Like a prisoner escape.

MISCAVIGE: Like a prisoner. That's right. So now -- and I know Urgen was in the main booth. So, I drove past the galley and I saw that the car was out there. By the time I got to the gate, bully I want to tell you my heart was in my throat. I hit the buzzer. He didn't even ask me who I was because he was used to me going across.

He opened up the gate. I slowly moved out. I said, Becky, we're turning left. I trumped on that the accelerator, and down the road about a mile, it must have been going 75 by the time I got there.

If I turned right, I would go to route 10, that would take me to L.A., if I went straight I'd go to route 60 which is L.A. If I turn left I'd be going into town. I figured, he's going to figure I'm taking these highways. So, I turned left to go into town, went into the boon docks and we were free.

KELLY: Fascinating, Ron. Thank you very much for coming on and telling your story. Again, the book is called "Ruthless" by Ron Miscavige, father of David Miscavige, head of scientology. All the best to you.

MISCAVIGE: Thank you.

KELLY: And the Church of Scientology has denied Ron's allegations in full and called them sad as a product of a father that they say was taken care of by his son David.

Up next, our students at a major university being forced to become so- called social justice warriors?

Iraq and Afghanistan Vet Pete Hegseth joins us next on that. Don't go away.


KELLY: Hi. This is another prank takes a minute to catch up. So, new questions raised tonight about curriculum, the curriculum at the University of Massachusetts campus.

As we've seen reports, the students are now required to complete a course on social and cultural diversity with a goal of helping students quote, "create change towards social justice," that's work at dicey, "and to hold attitudes which value cultural differences."

Pete Hegseth is Fox News contributor and the author of the new book "In the Arena, Good Citizens, a Great Republic, and How One Speech can Reinvigorate America." Great to see you, Pete.


KELLY: So, there's nothing wrong with diversity classes because that's helpful. But when you're trying to push towards social justice which is not, it's a dicey term in some circles and not everybody believes in the full principal is a different thing.

HEGSETH: It's a very politically loaded term and when it's a mandatory course, but there's no mandatory course on, I don't know, the Constitution or American government, clearly you got one perspective.

Social justice is analogous to basically anti-western civilization and so you pull out a lot of the principles of what our country was founded on and you say you be for whatever cause you think is just based on mostly race, class and gender, which is how it ends up breaking down.

And inevitably moves left. There is no reinforcement of the things that made this country great so we're no longer creating American citizens, we're forging these citizens of the world. Which I talk about in the book, Roosevelt wrote it.

Citizens of the world are terrible citizens of their own country because they're always more worried about a morphs, you know, causes for humanity not necessarily what's going on in their own country.

KELLY: You know, Dinesh D'Souza made a whole movie about this.


KELLY: And sort of underscored what's being taught in the colleges. And it's not, you know, if you pull out a principal like, let's talk about equality, or inequality, let's talk about injustice it sounds fine.

But when you put it in practice and actually hear it taught, it's some of these institutions it's all about bashing republicans and conservatives.


KELLY: And people who don't think like some on the left do which now we're in new territory. We did a story last night with Jason Reilly where he was disinvited from Virginia tech from giving a speech...

HEGSETH: Exactly.

KELLY: ... because he has conservative views. By the way, they have been shamed into reopening reoffering him that invitation. And your book is basically about this too.


KELLY: About the cupcakes and what's happening to them on the college campus is where free speech is being shut down.

HEGSETH: You better -- you better watch dog it. Because they don't want their safe spaces. They want a one-sided conversation, they want to shut you down and they want to be coddled. They're being coddled. And they're being taught one side shutting at one else down.

And it takes greedy citizens, toughness, manliness for both men and women to stand up and say what America has is exceptional. We're going not going to apologize for it. We're going to demand our First Amendment right on campus, Second Amendment rights whatever. Because that's what was given to us and it's our charge to keep it.

And what -- we need to dig deep for it and have the courage to fight for that because the left will overwhelm us as they always do with that one- sided perspective.

KELLY: Womanliness too.

HEGSETH: Womanliness.


HEGSETH: You better believe it.

KELLY: Good luck to you.

HEGSETH: Thank you.

KELLY: In the Arena. We'll be right back.


KELLY: What did you think of the interview that we just had with Ron Miscavige? Let me know at Follow me on Twitter @megynkelly. Happy Cinco de Mayo. Great to see you all. I'm Megyn Kelly. This is "The Kelly File."

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