Gingrich: If Cruz doesn't sweep Indiana, he can't stop Trump; Progress made in five years since death of Usama bin Laden?

Former House speaker weighs in on the upcoming primary


This is a rush transcript from "Sunday Morning Futures," May 1, 2016. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

MARIA BARTIROMO, FOX NEWS ANCHOR:  Hi, everybody.  Good morning.  Happy Sunday.  I'm Maria Bartiromo.  Welcome to "Sunday Morning Futures."

All eyes on the Hoosier State this morning where voters head to the polls in now two days.  How significant is this primary?  

Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich is here to weigh, as well as legendary basketball coach, Bobby Knight, joining us coming up.  

Plus, chaos in California as protesters hit the street outside of a Donald Trump campaign event, as he looks to nail down that nomination.  Will the raise for the White House come down to the Golden State?

And today marks five years since the death of Osama bin Laden.  But even with the al Qaeda leader gone, his terrorist network is alive and well. Where are we now when it comes to securing our homeland?  

We're looking ahead this morning on "Sunday Morning Futures."


BARTIROMO:  Indiana front and center on the national stage as Republicans battle for the presidential nomination.  Donald Trump and Ted Cruz going head to head in two state's primaries with John Kasich staying on the sidelines.  And for Cruz, it's do or die this Tuesday.  Cruz saying that the Indiana primary will make or break his bid to stop Trump from walking away with the GOP nomination.  

Newt Gingrich is former speaker of the House and a Fox News contributor. He joins us right now.

Mr. Speaker, always a pleasure.  Good to see you.  

NEWT GINGRICH, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR:  Well, it's good to be with you.  

BARTIROMO:  What do you think?  Do you think Indiana is the make or break situation?  I mean, if Trump wins Indiana, is it over?  

GINGRICH:  Oh, sure.  Indiana is make or break for Cruz.  That is a bump in the road for Trump.  If Cruz can't win Indiana, by that I mean virtually all the delegates, something like close to what he did in Wisconsin. There's no possibility that he can stop Trump.  It will just be over sometime Wednesday morning.

On the other hand, if Trump doesn't do particularly well in Indiana here, so much overall momentum and such a huge lead, he could still win by winning in New Jersey and California on June 7th.  So, for Trump, it's a significant event.  For Cruz, it's life or death.  

BARTIROMO:  We're going to talk with Bobby Knight, coming up, and obviously, the famous coach has backed Donald Trump.  But then, of course, the governor in Indiana has gone with Ted Cruz.  So, but he also had nice things to say about Trump.  

So, how important are these endorsements?

GINGRICH:  Well, I'm not quite sure.  If I were measuring Indiana and I was at Perdue this week talking to students and talking to Republicans and to local leaders, I would say that basketball probably beats politicians in Indiana.  If I had to choose between at legendary coach or a governor, probably the legendary coach has more impact on the voters of Indiana.  

But I think in the end what it comes down to in the age of television is the candidates.  Trump has an enormous ability to reach through that medium, whether it's on YouTube, or it's on Facebook, or it's on radio and TV, his personality seems to be moving the system in ways that none of us, include me, none of us could have predicted three or four months.  

BARTIROMO:  Will that personality and that leadership that we see over and over from Trump be enough to beat Hillary Clinton come November?  

GINGRICH:  Probably.  There's a poll out this morning from Rasmussen that shows them tied 38-38.  The fact is Hillary will be the most unpopular Democrat ever nominated.  Trump will probably be the most unpopular Republican ever nominated.  So, you have high negatives on both sides.  

But there's a huge difference.  Trump has -- I will just say this about everybody who has watched this race, none of us have gotten it right.  You go back two or three weeks before New York, nobody would say he's going to get 64 percent.  You go back the Sunday before the Pennsylvania primary, nobody would say he would carry every single county in five states.  

He's doing something remarkable.  Republican turnout is up 60 percent.  Democratic turnout is down about 20 percent.  Those things bode very popular messages for the fall.  

So, I think when Trump pivots, which he will once he has the nomination, and he begins to think about 100 percent of the American electorate and how to reach Latinos and African-Americans and Asian-Americans and younger voters, I think you'll see a very remarkable campaign just as of until now, you see historically unthinkable.  It's an amazing achievement.  

BARTIROMO:  Yes.  Now, it's about -- who might he get around him?  Who is Trump going to put around him in a cabinet?  So, there's been talk, I'm hearing basically on Wall Street, that he's talked to Henry Kravitz about being his potential treasury secretary.  

GINGRICH:  He might have.  I think his bias will be to find business leaders in the real world who have actually done things as opposed to academics and lawyers and politicians.  

I also think there's a politician -- someone said to me yesterday.  He might reach out to a military leader to be his vice presidential nominee.  He doesn't have to be restricted to the traditional vice president.  He could seek somebody like a General Mathis, who was a remarkable leader.  

The number of other folks who would fit that, either five or six senior officers, all of whom would be quite attractive and would eliminate this question about whether or not Trump would be safe with national security.  

BARTIROMO:  What about you, would you consider being his vice presidential pick?  

GINGRICH:  I don't think that's likely.  Someone asked me yesterday, I said, I didn't know Disney was looking, but I love going to Disneyworld.  If they call, I'd consider it.  

BARTIROMO:  In terms of the cabinet, though, have you discussed the cabinet position with Donald Trump?  

GINGRICH:  No.  And I don't think he's discussed it with anybody.  He has a very good sense of sequence.

And his critique of Cruz for picking a vice presidential nominee when he clearly didn't have a path to be nominated, I think was exactly right. The time for Trump to think about the next stage is when he finishes this stage.  This stage is called getting delegates.  


GINGRICH:  He's very close to closing out the entire party, all of the establishment, 16 other candidates and getting to be the nominee.  If he wins next Tuesday, he'll be the nominee before California.  Then it's time to start asking the next set of questions, one of which is who will be the most effective nominee?  

BARTIROMO:  Yes, all very fair points.

Well, at this point, I think the Cruz campaign is looking the next couple of weeks and saying, look, we've got to pull some magic out of hats here.  I mean, he names Carly Fiorina as his vice presidential pick.  Obviously, that's -- very unheard of to do that at this point in the campaign.  

Also, Heidi Cruz, his wife, is talking about what's important about Ted Cruz.  I want you to hear this sound bite that she made comments about him being an immigrant.  Listen to this.


HEIDI CRUZ, WIFE OF SEN. TED CRUZ:  Ted is an immigrant.  He's Hispanic. We can unify this party.  


BARTIROMO:  He's Hispanic.  What did you think about that comment, Newt?  

GINGRICH:  Well, OK, works better for Marco Rubio.  Of course, she can't -- she can't really mean he's an immigrant because, of course, he is an American -- the purpose of running for president.  So, Cruz has never run at an immigrant.  He's never identified with the Latino community.  That doesn't mean wouldn't be effective.

Look, I think Ted Cruz is a very smart man.  I think he clearly was a national class debater, a brilliant lawyer and he's run a very good campaign.  Out of 17 candidates, he's one of the two guys who really survived.  That's not a small achievement.  But I don't see that as a major point of appeal.  

The problem Cruz has is there's no poll that shows Cruz is dramatically more likely to beat Hillary Clinton than Donald Trump.  If you keep losing primaries, particularly if you come in third in four out of five this last Tuesday, you have a pretty hard argument to make your more electable.  

That's why I think the arguments are -- the right arguments, they just don't have factual backgrounds to make them work.  

BARTIROMO:  You know, it looks like he's counting on a contested convention, Cruz is, and yet, if Trump gets the 1,237 delegates, before the convention, the establishment and the Republican Party will have to get behind him.  What changes once the GOP gets behind Donald Trump in a big way?  

GINGRICH:  Look, almost everything changes.  

BARTIROMO:  Really?  

GINGRICH:  This is like a sporting event.  There's no reason for the underdog team to quit if you're only halfway through the fourth quarter.  They have every right to play it out.  But there comes a moment, and for Trump it may come as soon as Tuesday night, if he wins Indiana, I was told a little while ago, John Hines (ph) told me that there's a poll out that puts Cruz -- Trump, rather, up by 15 point in Indiana.  

If that's true and he wins Indiana by a significant margin, the fact is the next morning, he is the nominee.  Not the presumptive nominee.  


GINGRICH:  It's going to happen.  I think instantly, you'll see people's attitudes start to move towards accommodating him, adjusting to him, figuring how to work with him.

Very few Republicans can tolerate the idea of Hillary Clinton as president.  I think that drives them towards Trump almost immediately once he's, in fact, clearly got the delegate votes.  

BARTIROMO:  Right.  Which gives him that further push poised to --

GINGRICH:  Right.  It all becomes circular.  


GINGRICH:  The more you get, the more momentum, therefore, the more momentum you have.  He's right at the edge of that kind of cycle.  

BARTIROMO:  We'll be watching.  An exciting Tuesday night is ahead.  Newt Gingrich, always pleasure.  Good to see you, sir.  

GINGRICH:  Thanks.

BARTIROMO:  We'll see you soon.

Donald Trump, meanwhile, is insisting that he does not need to change his style on the campaign trail.  So, will that strategy work and can he get that magic number of 1,237? Former presidential candidate, Dr. Ben Carson, will join me next.  

Don't forget, you can follow me on Twitter @MariaBartiromo, @SundayFutures.  Let us know what you'd like to hear from Dr. Carson, as well as Governor Tom Ridge, coming up in the program, and Bobby Knight.

Stay with us.  We're looking ahead this morning, "Sunday Morning Futures."


BARTIROMO:  Welcome back.  

Donald Trump's brash style has endeared him to a solid group of supporters.  But can it carry him to the White House?  

Analysts say he will need to broaden his base beyond that core group to win the general election and toning down his approach could help him appeal to more voters.  

Joining me right now is Dr. Ben Carson, a former GOP presidential candidate himself and a Trump supporter.  

Dr. Carson, good see you.  


BARTIROMO:  So when you look at should Donald Trump tone it down and change his approach, I always go back to, well, let's not forget that brash style is what thrust him into the spotlight and resonate with so many people.  Should he change it now?  

CARSON:  Well, a lot of what people are calling brashness is failure to comply with the standards of political correctness.  And I don't think that's something he should give up at all.  I think that you do see him tending to focus more on the issues now and less on other people.  And I think that's going to be helpful.  

BARTIROMO:  That's what we really need because I think voters and viewers want to hear substance from him about all of the issues he cares about.  But one that keeps resonating is the ability to create jobs because he's a businessman.  How do you compare his ability to create jobs to the others in the race right now, including Hillary as well as Bernie?  

CARSON:  Well, you know, he's had practical, real experience in the world.  And he's going to surround himself with people with practical experience as well.  

You know, I don't think it's going to be that difficult.  And he and I have talked about this, to get this economy rolling again, by simply creating the right kind of fair tax structure, getting rid of the incessant regulations -- 81,000 pages of regulatory reform just in the last year.  These things are killers when it comes to the job market.  

So, he understands that.  He also understands how to create trade deals that are fair.  He doesn't necessarily want us to take advantage of everybody, but he doesn't want everybody to be taking advantage of us. It's something that we have just not been paying attention to in recent years.  

BARTIROMO:  Which is why he's resonating so much with this core group of people because that's the way they see it.  That he is going to be the tough guy who's actually going to protect America.  But there's the will of the people and then something else, right, Dr. Carson?  

He keeps saying the system is rigged and he keeps talking about the fact that you could get the popular vote and not get the delegate count.  How do you see it?  

CARSON:  Well, you look at some of the things going on, like in Arizona and Colorado, what happened in Virginia just recently.  You know, these things don't truly reflect the will of the people.  

Now, I know the politicians will say, well, it's not about these rules all along.  That's how politicians talk.  That's what they say.  

That's what people are so tired of -- the status quo, the trickery and the manipulation.  They want the candidate to be the person that they have selected.  And this is problematic.  If the Republicans can understand that and address that, believe me, they will also attract a lot of Bernie Sanders voters.  

BARTIROMO:  Which has been the appeal of Donald Trump, because some people say, he's bringing in Republicans but he's also bringing in Democrats.  You look at what Newt Gingrich just told us, voter turnout on the Republican side is up 60 percent while Democratic turnout is down, I think, 20 percent.  

CARSON:  Yes.  The enthusiasm issue is one that a lot of these polls don't take into consideration.  When you go out and you poll someone on the telephone, that doesn't mean they're actually coming out to vote.  And it's the enthusiasm that will make the difference in the fall.  

BARTIROMO:  So, what do you think happens now in terms of Indiana, California, how important are these contests and how does this race look different, do you think, in the next two weeks?  

CARSON:  Well, they're very, very important.  And the reason that they're so important is that we've come down to crunch time.  

And, you know, our founders, in particular Thomas Jefferson, had an enormous amount of faith in the American people.  Not so much the politicians and the political class.  And they said ultimately when we got into a situation like this where we were at a crossroads in terms of which way the nation was going to go, what kind of people we're going to become, the people themselves would rise up.  They would supersede the system.  

I believe the people in Indiana are probably going to prove that quite effectively.  I've been to Indiana many, many times.  There are a lot of solid people there and I think they're going to figure out what's going on there and the manipulation that's going on here.  

And, you know, you look at Bobby Knight and what he represents.  And then even -- even Governor Pence, who is a great guy, I love him.  But you see how tepid that endorsement was that he did on Friday.  That's the kind of endorsement you give when you have your backers twisting your arm saying, you have to do this.  

BARTIROMO:  Wow, because you also had nice things to say about Trump, even though he was endorsing Ted Cruz.  

CARSON:  Absolutely.  It's all about the people.  

BARTIROMO:  We will watch and we're going to speak with Bobby Knight coming up in the program, the famous basketball coach will be joining us in just a few minutes.  Dr. Carson, good to see you.  Thanks so much.  

CARSON:  Thank you so much, Maria.  

BARTIROMO:  We'll see you soon.  Dr. Ben Carson there.  

Anti-Trump protests erupting in California this week.  It got ugly as Golden State plays a rare role in the political spotlight.  Next hour, we're talking about how that could impact the race for the White House. We'll look ahead to California next on "Sunday Morning Futures."


BARTIROMO:  Welcome back.  

Donald Trump blasting violent demonstrators at recent campaign events in California.  He called them, quote, "thugs and criminals." And with five weeks left before the California primary, activists are vowing more of the same.  

California Congressman Darrell Issa is with us now, member of the House Judiciary Committee.

Congressman, good to see you.  Thanks so much for joining us.  

REP. DARRELL ISSA, R-CALIFORNIA:  Thanks for having me on, Maria.  And thanks for covering these thugs, as Donald Trump put it, and the activities they're doing that are just outright criminal.  

BARTIROMO:  It's horrible.  I mean, the pictures of these people getting all bloodied up.  I don't know what they want.  I mean, really, but what do you think this says as we approach the California primary, which, of course, is going to be critical for this election.  

ISSA:  Well, I think the left, including the SEIU and some of the unions, would like you to believe a safe path to a more gentile America is to go with Hillary Clinton rather than someone who's been saying, we have to have change if we're going to create jobs.  

BARTIROMO:  So, where does that leave us?  You're right.  That is what this is about, you know, trying to show Donald Trump as the troublemaker and maybe Hillary Clinton as the calmer, sort of adult in the room.  

But this is not stopping.  So, what is it going to take to bring the country together?  Is it we have to get through the election, that look, people are going to have a voice, and they're going to do what they want to do?  

ISSA:  Well, I don't think there's any question at all an election will make the difference because the American people need to speak, as Newt Gingrich said in the last segment.  You know, Republicans and independents are showing up so we have a 60 percent increase in people turning out in Republican primaries while the Democratic Party has no particular desire to turn out and vote for Hillary or Bernie Sanders.  

But once we get past the election, what we are doing is we're talking about real change.  We're going from an economy that has been driven by stimulus and low money into one in which Donald Trump, and I'm not going to correct the last segment, but it's not about the knowing how to create jobs.  It's about these candidates knowing how jobs are created and they're not created with big government programs.  They're created with empowering the private sector to create jobs.  

And that's the difference in our message is one is pro-growth through the private sector.  The other is continued growth through government.  

BARTIROMO:  I think you make such an important point.  This week I was reading about the last eight years of the economy and the truth is, the facts are, that under President Obama's leadership these last 7 1/2 years, the economy has been unable to grow at a 3 percent level or more any year.  So, he will employ down as the only president, Congressman, that has not seen 3 percent growth at least in any year of his presidency.  It's averaged 1.5 percent growth, the economy, under President Obama.  

ISSA:  Well, Maria, this is one of the challenges in an economy that keeps looking for government stimulus, whether it's through artificially low interest rates or through actual trillion dollar packages of stimulus, is people will take the money, but they won't make the investment.  

The United States needs to be investing in America.  I'm not committed to either of the remaining candidates, but the idea that you take your money and you invest it is about believing that your government understands that you want and need a return on that investment.  Not a short-term, not a guaranteed return, but a long-term one for you, your employees, your community.  

That environment is the environment that Republicans are proposing.  And it's one in which thugs are showing up and throwing eggs at police who stand there taking showers of rotten eggs because that's the way it's going to be until after the American people speak and make a clear decision they don't want the direction of President Obama and, obviously, Hillary Clinton is very much pushing to the left of President Obama.  

BARTIROMO:  Right.  And so, can Hillary Clinton be successful running on the idea that she's going to just build on what President Obama has already done?  There's that question.  

She's running on an economy that has really just bumped along the bottom, 1.5 percent growth is not good.  Almost ten years after the financial crisis. There's that and then, of course, there's the FBI investigation.  

I want to play this sound bite of President Clinton.  He was campaigning for his wife yesterday.  And he basically called this FBI investigation a game.  Listen to this.  


BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT:  He said, oh, no, some of them should have been secret.  Now, you think about this when you go home.  If you're driving in a 50-mile-an-hour zone, and a police officer pulls you over when you're driving 40 and says, I'm sorry I have to give you a ticket because the speed limit here should have been 35 and you should have known this.  So, everybody is all breathless about this.  Look, this is a game.  


BARTIROMO:  It's a game.  

Congressman, what do you make of that?  How important is this investigation in the fate of Hillary Clinton's campaign?  

ISSA:  Well, briefly, the president -- President Clinton is saying it a little inaccurately.  What you're really doing is driving in a car that's unregistered and you discover on top of that it has safety violations.  Oh, by the way, you get into a car crash.  

What she did was wrong.  She knew it was wrong.  Bill Clinton knew it was wrong.  Her staff knew it was wrong.  And they did it anyway.  

Now, there are at least 20 highly classified -- these are top secret and above documents and over 2,000 that are classified as secret or confidential level.  That's not going a little under the speed limit, over the speed limit.  It's breaking the law.  And, then, oh, by the way, this is -- these are the things that happened while you were breaking the law.  

What's happening in the investigation is, I think the FBI is running into a problem that there's too much to investigate.  I believe they're going to have to make a summary of finding as to her violation of the National Records Act or keeping of the -- taking of the documents and, of course, a classified portion.  They're going to have to leave the actual activities with Sidney Blumenthal and so on, and her push toward coordinating her activities and President Clinton's and Chelsea's activities in the Clinton Foundation, they're probably going to have to leave that until after the election.  

BARTIROMO:  Ah, so you're saying maybe we'll hear part about the e-mail scandal, the email and the server, but then not get to foundation business until after the foundation.

ISSA:  Well, the foundation business is complex, and even in the "Clinton Cash", the book that came out, you read it all, what you find is a series of events in which foreign governments have given large amounts of money simultaneously or near simultaneously to Secretary Clinton's activities.  

It's complex.  It's the kind of thing that can take the FBI a long time.  The question of did Hillary Clinton break the law when she set up her private server, did she, in fact, recklessly conduct business on it?  Did she take all those documents with her when she left and stop being a government employee in violations of the Federal Records Act?  Was she keeping secret documents?

And, you know, President Clinton, I respect him a great deal, but he understands that when you and your staff are communicating things, you're creating secret documents.  So, the idea, well, they weren't classified at the time, you're given classified information.  Huma Abedin and the secretary and others, when they spoke essentially in classified terms in writing, they were creating unlawful activity. And I think she's going to have to answer at least for the -- not the question of is she indicted or not, but has she disqualified herself from this high office in which you must play by the rules or people die?  

BARTIROMO:  Yes.  We'll be watching that.  That's a really critical to watch both parts -- e-mail as well as foundation.  

Congressman, good to see you.  Thanks so much.  

ISSA:  Thank you, Maria.

BARTIROMO:  We'll see you soon.  Congressman Darrell Issa there.  

Donald Trump picking up an endorsement from a well-known in the Hoosier State.  Coming up, we'll talk live with sports icon with Bobby Knight about why he thinks the billionaire business is his choice to lead America.

We're looking ahead this morning on "Sunday Morning Futures." Back in a moment.


BARTIROMO:  Welcome back.  

A college basketball legend in Indiana making Donald Trump home court advantage in the state's primary Tuesday night.  University of Indiana's former basketball coach Bobby Knight announcing his endorsement of Donald Trump ahead of Tuesday's contest.  The primary will be critical in deciding whether Trump can secure the magic number of delegates needed to clinch the nomination.  

Bobby Knight joins us right now to talk more about it.  

Good to see you, Coach.  Thanks so much for joining us.  

BOBBY KNIGHT:  I'm happy to be here.  

BARTIROMO:  What was so special about Donald Trump?  Why did you get behind him?  Really an important endorsement going into an important primary Tuesday.  

KNIGHT:  Well, I think that he has more prerequisites, by far, than anybody who has ever entered the White House.  I think his business acumen, things he has accomplished put him in a position where he doesn't have to practice and learn.  He's ready to go.

This fellow has had all kinds of business endeavors and they've been very successful.  Not just on a national level but on a worldwide level.  People all over the world know who Donald Trump is.  They know this is going to be a little bit different approach from our administration than what we've had in the past.  

Our administration, we look at a lot of things that have happened over the times and so forth and so on.  But Mr. Trump has probably more credentials to go into the White House than any former president we've had, the things he's worked with.  Then he's had setbacks here and there.  

But he's always been able to overcome that.  He's figured out a way to do something better when things have gone wrong.  And I think those are essential ingredients in a president and in a White House.  

I think that we'll find that Dr. Trump's White House -- Donald Trump's White House will have a great rapport with the military, which is something we don't have right now.  And something that is absolutely a necessity.  

We had a terrible situation where our government failed to protect American citizens in that Benghazi affair.  I think that may be one of the worst things in my lifetime I've heard from our American government.


KNIGHT:  And that will never happen under a Trump administration.  

That administration -- Trump's administration will take care in any way of Americans abroad.  And that's something that I think will be essential in years to come, just like having a rapport with the United States military that will be just what it should be.  

BARTIROMO:  What kind of a response have you gotten from the people around you, people of Indiana, when you first came out real bullish for Donald Trump?  

KNIGHT:  Well, that was really interesting.  When Mr. Trump first called me about would I be willing to speak with him in Indiana, I told him yes.  Then I started asking people about Donald Trump.  Ladies, men, actually, a lot of ladies, just how do you feel about Donald Trump?  

And they found the question -- the question I got is he might be a little abrasive.  But that's pretty good in some cases.  Abrasiveness is necessary in some political dealings.  

I was really not surprised but I was really amazed at the amount of positive reaction I got from both men and women relative to my choice to support Donald Trump for the presidency.  

I had not one single person say, well, coach, I don't think you should do that.  I had people simply say, you know, coach, I think that he's doing really well.  I think he has a lot of things going for him, he's done a lot of things.  

Like, let's take jobs, for instance.  


KNIGHT:  Trump has provided hundreds -- thousands of jobs for people in the United States, around the world with all of his business endeavors.  That's something that's important right now, is the creation of jobs.  This is a guy that is used to doing that.  He has a great record in that.  

He is not a guy going into the White House that hasn't given up a lot of different things that have been very worthwhile in both the American economy, our military and in every regard.  

And as I try to look at every candidate, I was a history major in college, and I've always been interested in politics, I've watched things go, but I've never been a Republican or Democrat.  I think I've been an American.  I want to see the best person for the job, and it happens to be in this situation, in my mind, it simply happens to be Donald Trump.  

BARTIROMO:  All right.  We'll be watching that.  Obviously, your voice is going to be real important come Tuesday.  Your voice has already been very important.  Tuesday, we're going to see it play out in the Indiana primary, sir.  Thanks so much for joining us.  

KNIGHT:  OK.  I appreciate being here.  

BARTIROMO:  We'll see you soon.  Bobby Knight there joining us.  

It has been five years since the U.S. Navy SEALs took down Osama bin Laden.  Where are we now in the fight against terrorism?  Take a look next on "Sunday Morning Futures" with Governor Tom Ridge.  



BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES:  Tonight, I can report to the American people and to the world that the United States has conducted an operation that killed Osama bin Laden, the leader of al Qaeda.  


BARTIROMO:  That was five years ago.  President Obama five years ago today, announcing the death of Osama bin Laden.  Al Qaeda no longer the top threat today.  That title now belongs to ISIS.  But the terrorist network still remains a real danger to the country.  

Joining me right now is former Pennsylvania Governor Tom Ridge.  He's also the former secretary of homeland security.  

Good to see you, sir.  Thanks so much for joining us.  

TOM RIDGE, FORMER PENNSYLVANIA GOVERNOR:  Maria, good to join you this morning.  

BARTIROMO:  Five years after that faithful fateful day, when the United States took down Osama bin Laden.  How would you characterize terrorism in our country?

RIDGE:  Well, I think, a couple of thoughts come to mind, first, I think we all should all remember President Bush standing on the rubble of the Twin Towers, when he announced to the rest of the world and to bin Laden, it may take a while, but we'll bring you justice.  And thanks to the relentless effort, and the untiring effort, the intelligence community, and bravery and sacrifice of our military, we kept our word.  

But since that time, I've heard the same president who announced that we got bin Laden, talk about having al Qaeda being decimated al Qaeda on the run, al Qaeda on the way to defeat.  And quite frankly, that does not square with reality.  

Al Qaeda as an entity has grown, probably has operations in 12 to 14 countries and also has affiliates or surrogates in Indonesia, in the Philippines, and in Syria.  So, the reality is, is that his description of what transpired since we got Osama bin Laden doesn't square with the facts. Al Qaeda is stronger and situated in more parts of the world today than they were the day that we got bin Laden.  

BARTIROMO:  Not to mention a group of al Qaeda leaders actually morphed themselves into what they're calling ISIS now.  So, you've got ISIS as well.  

RIDGE:  Absolutely.  

BARTIROMO:  What should be done at this point to take down ISIS?  What's your take in terms of the U.S. has missed steps or what we could be doing better in terms of getting our arms around these terrorists?  

RIDGE:  Candidly, Maria, I'm not sure we'll have much of a change in terms of strategy, which I'm not quite sure we've had an articulated strategy to take down the global scourge.  I mean, we need the next president to just be straight with the United States of America.  

This is a global scourge.  They have sanctuaries around the world.  Their interests are contrary to ours.  Our interests are at risk both in the United States and elsewhere.  

And let's not forget, it was al Qaeda, with about a year and a year and a half after this -- we took down bin Laden, was responsible for the death of the ambassador and his security team.  So, the next president has to be on honest with the world.  

The president refuses to take about a global scourge.  In denying its existence doesn't mean it goes away.  The president refuses to say this is Islamic fundamentalism and denying the idealism that they embrace doesn't mean that they're not Islamic fundamentalist.

So, hopefully, the next president will level with the American people, accept the notion that it's a global scourge, it's a clear and present and permanent danger, but then lead a coalition, an international coalition to start dealing with it in a much more strategic and tactical way.  Right now, I think the president is running out the clock, get out of town and lead this challenge to the next president of the United States.  

BARTIROMO:  Who's the best person for that job?  Whose foreign policy and approach to terrorism do you think will be the best?  

RIDGE:  Well, you know, I said before and you probably know this, I was -- I thought the best person to deal with this a long time ago was Jeb Bush.  


RIDGE:  I'm going to wait and see how -- but we have to see how it plays out.  One thing I think we need to say to people in both sides of the aisle, and all these candidates, there's not a bumper sticker solution to dealing with the challenge of the global scourge of Islamic fundamentalism.

BARTIROMO:  Right, of course.

RIDGE:  And the next president, but the next president just has to talk to American people.  We don't have to be breathless about it.  It's a serious risk.  We can handle the risk but we need a president to provide not only domestic leadership and squaring with the American people, but international leadership.  

But until we have a president that's willing to do it and understand the challenge is going to require a commitment of our diplomatic capabilities, a commitment of our military resources, our commitment to building a coalition with a serious plan to go after it in multiple venues across the globe, we're going to be dealing with this for a long, long time.  

BARTIROMO:  Sure are.  

Governor, Mr. Secretary, good to see you.  

RIDGE:  Nice to see you, Maria. Thank you very much.

BARTIROMO:  Thanks so much for joining us.  Thank you.

The president's final White House correspondents' dinner was last night.  Our panel up next.  We're looking ahead on "Sunday Morning Futures." Stay with us.  The panel on what's ahead.  



OBAMA:  The Republican establishment is incredulous that he is their most likely nominee.  Incredulous, shocking.  They say Donald lacks the foreign policy experience to be president.  But in fairness, he has spent years meeting with leaders from around the world, Miss Sweden, Miss Argentina, Miss Azerbaijan.


BARTIROMO:  President Obama last night at his final White House Correspondents' Dinner taking a jab at Donald Trump.  

Ed Rollins is former principal White House adviser to President Reagan and a Fox News political analyst.  Katherine Timpf with us this morning, columnist with "The National Review" and a Fox News contributor.  And Stephen Sigmund is with us, senior vice president of Global Strategy Group and a Democratic strategist.  Good to see you all.  


BARTIROMO:  Obama is always good at that dinner.  Once again, he crushed it.  

ROLLINS:  He's a great talent.  This dinner is kind of (INAUDIBLE).  It used to be three or four decades ago, you honor the media.  You raised money for scholarship.  Now, it's all about celebrities.  

BARTIROMO:  Yes, it really is.  I was there last night and they were all talking about Donald Trump because he was there last year and I guess the president made some jokes about him last year as well.  

But some of these jokes resonate, Katherine, because people are thinking, yes, he did the Miss Universe pageant.  So --

KATHERINE TIMPF, COLUMNIST, NATIONAL REVIEW:  Obama was so funny last night.  I really thought -- I mean, the way he hit Hillary, the way that he was hitting Trump, the Republicans.  He really went all over the place.  It was great.  

But, yes, I mean, it is bizarre and I'm sure he was thinking, what happened now in terms of last year, remember he said he wanted to change the tone of politics but he should have been more specific.  I thought that was really funny because nobody could have seen this kind of thing coming.  

BARTIROMO:  And nobody did see Donald Trump coming.  Very few people.  

Steve, let me get your take.  Let's go to more serious matters here.  Obviously, we had the dinner and joking but there are things resonating going into Indiana.  And that is jobs.  How are you feeling going into Indiana about Hillary Clinton as well as Donald Trump?  

STEPHEN SIGMUND, SR VP, GLOBAL STRATEGY GROUP:  Well, look, I think Hillary Clinton is in great shape.  I mean, she's solidified her position as a presumptive nominee.  She's far ahead in polling.  She's -- I think it's been better for her to have a competitive Democratic primary because she's at her best when she's fighting as opposed to being sort of regal, right?  I think Donald Trump is going to win Indiana, I mean, I -- you know --

BARTIROMO:  You do?  

SIGMUND:  Yes.  I mean, two months ago or three months ago on the show, I said he was the presumptive nominee, he's caught to me this week by saying so.  But look, he's not in any better position than he was a couple of months ago.  I mean, he gave a good foreign policy speech this week when he finally used a teleprompter and, you know, said things that people had told him to say but it was completely overshadowed by the woman card and endorsements from Bobby Knight and Mike Tyson, you know?

So, he keeps sort of his way of presenting himself keeps driving a further and further wedge between him and the rest of the electorate besides Republican primary electorates.  

BARTIROMO:  There was a poll out this morning, Ed, that it is 50/50, Trump/Clinton.  

ROLLINS:  That's the Rasmussen, that's the nation -- the poll is more important at this time is The Wall Street Journal/Marist which has Trump up 15 points in Indiana.  

Cruz can't get a break.  I mean, he obviously had a big week and he won some of the smaller things.  He got some good endorsements, he got two governors.  

Meanwhile, Trump gets endorsed by the KKK in Richmond, he got endorsed by Tyson and it doesn't matter.  He still keeps moving forward.  

And my sense is he's going to be hard to stop.  This is it.  If he doesn't get stopped this week, it's over.  

TIMPF:  Yes.  He's going to win.  He's definitely going to win in Indiana.  

I didn't understand the Carly Fiorina pick right before Indiana either.  I mean, she outsourced so many jobs.  She was never that popular.  And it does seem desperate but I guess maybe to distract from the Trump sweep.  

But I still don't know if even after that he'll drop out, because there's the never Trump people are going to be never Trump no matter what and he is so -- his candidacy is so much bigger than just him.  

ROLLINS:  I don't think he drops out.  

TIMPF:  No.  

SIGMUND:  The rest of the Republican party seems to be sort of cycling between the last two stages of grief between depression and acceptance.  

BARTIROMO:  Acceptance, yeah.  

SIGMUND:  Ted Cruz is completely in denial.  

TIMPF:  There's plenty of denial still, actually.  Plenty of it.  

BARTIROMO:  Look, let's face it, if we have a contested convention, we don't mow what happens in the second ballot.  We don't know.  

ROLLINS:  We don't know and obviously he's got 57 delegates on Tuesday.  My sense is Trump wins the majority, may win them all.  If he doesn't, if he doesn't, then obviously, you've got a little competitive race to continue, but you got the big one in California with 172 delegates and obviously, my sense is Trump either gets there or gets awful close to the margin and then you have a real battle.

But I would also tell you that the majority of the delegates there would rather have someone other than Trump at the end of the day and that may not happen.  But there's other things like platforms, rules, all sorts of stuff that nobody has bothered to focus on.  

BARTIROMO:  Yes, it's true.  A lot of good points here.

Great to see you.  An abbreviated panel this morning.  We so appreciate it. Steve Sigmund, Ed Rollins, and Katherine Timpf, good to see you all.  Thank you so much.

That will do it for "Sunday Morning Futures" this Sunday.  Thanks for joining us.  I'm Maria Bartiromo.  I see you bright and early tomorrow on "Mornings with Maria" on the Fox Business Network, 6:00 a.m. Eastern to 9:00 a.m. Eastern.  Join us on the Fox Business Network.

Stay with Fox News Channel.  "MediaBuzz" starts now.   

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