'Fox News Sunday' marks 20 years on air; Trump and Cruz talk 2016 race

This is a rush transcript from "Fox News Sunday," May 1, 2016. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.


How close is Donald Trump to wrapping up the Republican nomination?  

Today, the GOP front runner, only on "Fox News Sunday."


DONALD TRUMP, R-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  I consider myself the presumptive nominee.  Absolutely.  

WALLACE:  But can he bring the party together?  

TRUMP:  The biggest senators, the biggest Congress people, we’ve got -- we have unbelievable support.  

WALLACE:  Trump one-on-one.  It's a "Fox News Sunday" exclusive.  

Then, Ted Cruz makes a series of dramatic moves before this week's primary in Indiana that could be make-or-break.  

SEN. TED CRUZ, R-TEXAS, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  There is nothing that Hoosiers cannot do.  

WALLACE:  He even names a running mate.  

CRUZ:  And the next vice president of the United States, Carly Fiorina.  

WALLACE:  We'll ask Cruz about maneuvers that are being called either daring or desperate.  

Plus, what about those comments from John Boehner?  


WALLACE:  We’ll ask our Sunday panel why Cruz is so hated in Washington.  

And this program marks its first 20 years.  

TONY SNOW, FORMER FOX NEWS HOST:  Good morning, I’m Tony Snow.  

BILL CLINTON, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT:  You did Fox's video on this show, you did your nice little conservative hit job on me.  

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  I can do that.  Not going to do that.  

WALLACE:  All, right now, on "Fox News Sunday."


WALLACE:  And hello again from Fox News in Washington.  

This week, "Fox News Sunday" marks 20 years on the air and today as the Republican race for president approaches what could be a tipping point, we'll speak with the top two candidates, Donald Trump and Ted Cruz.  

Trump hasn't appeared on a Sunday show in almost a month, but he agreed to an exclusive interview today to mark our anniversary.  And after landslide victories on the East Coast, he's looking ahead to Indiana Tuesday where a big win could effectively clinch the nomination.  

Mr. Trump, welcome back to "Fox News Sunday."

TRUMP:  Good morning.  

WALLACE:  You were the target of sometimes violent protests in California this week, opposing your hard line immigration policy.  Are you concerned that if you are the Republican nominee these demonstrations could disrupt your campaign?  

TRUMP:  No, we were at that particular moment we had 31,000 people in the stands, it was packed, they have never had a crowd like that, it's the biggest crowd they’ve ever had.  

We had 31,000 people.  We didn't have a riot.  We didn't have anybody even raise their hand.  It was a love fest for an hour and a half.  It was incredible.

I didn't even see the riot.  You know, these are wise guys that stomp on policemen's cars.  And it’s terrible thing that people are allowed to get away with this.

These were professional agitators.  They were wearing masks.  The cops tell me, anytime you see a guy with a mask, you know he's a professional.  And they were wearing masks.

These people have to be dealt with very strongly, because you can't allow that to happen to a police car, you know, essentially.  

But this was an amazing -- this was an amazing evening where we had 31,000 people and almost never other than a couple of helicopter shots did anybody see the crowd, the massiveness of the crowd, a record-setting crowd and nobody even saw it.  They only showed some guys making noise outside.  

WALLACE:  But, Mr. Trump, it isn't just as you say professional agitators.  You've angered a lot of people in this country beyond even the illegal immigrants.  In a recent poll, 15 percent of Hispanic voters have a favorable view of you, 81 percent unfavorable.  

I don't have to tell you, you cannot win in November with those numbers.  

TRUMP:  Well, I say those numbers are going way up once I start going.  I have two more people I have to get rid of, I started off with 17, and one by one I knocked them off.  I knocked off Jeb Bush who was easy.  I knocked off Walker.  I knocked off a lot of very talented people, and frankly I have to -- you know, I have to do what I have to do.

Now once I start on Hillary, you’ll see the numbers change.  I mean, look, when I started this, everybody said, well, he's not -- I’m not a professional politician, which is a good thing, by the way, but it's true.  But one by one I won and now --


WALLACE:  But how about this 81 --

TRUMP:  Watch what happens with Hillary and watch what happens with my numbers.  I’ve been hit with 55,000 negative ads, 55,000, over $100 million of negative ads.  Kasich hasn't been hit with one ad.  I mean, he is not going anywhere anyway, frankly.  But he wasn’t -- he hasn't been hit with an ad, and neither is Cruz.  

I’ve been hit with 55,000 ads and I’m still leading in a landslide, and I think doing really well -- and as you probably have seen, I’m doing really well in Indiana.  And one more thing, the last two polls that have came out have me tied with Hillary, one has me winning.  

WALLACE:  Let's talk about your standing with women, too.  In that same poll that showed you overwhelmingly negative among all Hispanic voters 24 percent of women have a favorable view of you, 75 percent unfavorable.

And yet in your victory speech on Tuesday night, here is what you had to say about Clinton.  


TRUMP:  I think the only card she has is the woman's card.  She's got nothing else going.  And frankly, if Hillary Clinton were a man, I don't think she'd get 5 percent of the vote.  


WALLACE:  Now, I’ve got to tell you, strategists in both parties say if you consciously went about it, if you specifically planned you couldn't have said anything that would drive your numbers among women even lower.  

TRUMP:  Really?  OK.  Well, I’m my own strategist and I like that -- what I said and it's true.  I only tell the truth and that's why people voted for me.  

WALLACE:  Well, wait -- wait a minute.  

TRUMP:  And don't forget, in the Republican primaries which I just beat by Cruz by numbers -- like 50 percent, I was up by so much, I had 62 percent in New York and I was 63 percent and 64 percent --


WALLACE:  Mr. Trump, with all due respect, whether or not you like -- let me just ask the question.  

TRUMP:  But, Chris, all of the polls coming out, I won with the women by landslides, I beat Cruz and I beat Kasich --


WALLACE:  I understand, but Hillary Clinton is a different --  

TRUMP:  I won with the women by landslides, you don’t mention that.

WALLACE:  -- is a different deal.  

And regardless of whether you like her or not, or think that she should be president or not, to say -- I mean, she was a senator, she was secretary of state for four years.  To say if she were a man, she'd get 5 percent -- isn't that kind of dismissive?  

TRUMP:  Well, Bernie Sanders said a lot worse than that.  He said that she almost shouldn't be allowed to run, that she's not qualified to run and she's not capable.  

I mean, Bernie Sanders, what he said was a lot worse than what I said and I’m going to use that.  We’ll have that teed up.  But Bernie Sanders said she shouldn't be allowed to run, that she's not capable.  

And, you know, what he said is incredible.  It's a sound bite.  It’s an -- in fact, as soon as he said it, they broke in and they said, I can just imagine Donald Trump watching these statements Bernie Sanders has made -- is making about Clinton.  

So, look, she's a strong person.  She's going to have to be able to take it.  The fact is, the only card she has is the woman's card.  She's done a lousy job in so many ways and even women don't like her.  They don't like her.  

But it is the woman's card and she plays it, and I’ll let you know in about six months whether or not she plays it well.  But I don't think she'll play it well.  I don't think she'll play it well at all.  And it's true, if she were not a woman, she wouldn't even be in this race.  

WALLACE:  All right.  Let's talk about your big foreign policy speech this week, which I think it's fair to say got mixed reviews.  One of the concerns, the biggest criticism is that there were contradictions.  For instance, in how you would handle the Middle East.  Here you are.  


TRUMP:  We're getting out of the nation-building business and instead focusing on creating stability in the world.  


WALLACE:  The question is if we're going to disengage from that part of the world, how do we promote stability?  You talk about in your speech the futility of creating democracies.  Do you -- would you like to see a return to strongmen in the Middle East, people like Mubarak and Saddam Hussein?  

TRUMP:  Isn't it true that we knocked them out in the first place?  OK.  

You know, if our presidents went to the beach for 365 days a year, we'd be a lot better in the Middle East than we are now.  Now, you have a mess.  You have a big fat mess and I called that a long time ago, in '04 and '03, I said, don't knock out -- when you knock out Iraq, you are just -- you’re going to ruin the balance, and the balance has been horrible.  

Then you had Libya and Syria and everything.  I mean, they couldn't have been worse.  The people that advised our presidents or our presidents, whoever was the one that came up with this plan -- I mean, what we've done in the Middle East, we've spent $4 trillion and we're far worse than the first gunshot that was fired.  

And what we’ve got to do is we've got to knock off ISIS and we've got to at some point get out of there, because we have to rebuild our country.  Our country is becoming third world, our airports, our roadways, our train systems.  You go to China and you go to other places, they have trains that travel 300 miles an hour.  We have the Long Island railroad that can hardly -- it can hardly move.  I mean, we are like a third world country.

But we have to get rid of ISIS and we have to get rid of them very decisively.

WALLACE:  Let me --  

TRUMP:  And I’ve been saying for a long time, keep the oil.  ISIS now has Libyan oil.  You know, it’s among the finest oils in the world.  ISIS now has the Libyan oil.  We don't even do anything to --  

WALLACE:  Mr. Trump --  

TRUMP:  We don’t even do anything to stop it.  They're making a fortune with Libyan oil.  

WALLACE:  Let me pick on this --  

TRUMP:  And if we would have left Gadhafi, you wouldn't have that.  

Look, every move we made in the Middle East was wrong.  And a lot of times, they want me to get these great foreign advisors and these great geniuses and they've been involved for 15 years.  I don't want the people that have been involved for 15 years because those are the people that have absolutely -- what they've done to this country and our country and on top of it we owe $19 trillion in debt.  

WALLACE:  But let me pick up on this because when you talk about, you know, we need to stop spending money overseas and spend it at home, that sounds more like a liberal Democrat.

And the question I have is, you talk about the mess -- your words -- that Bush and Obama and Clinton have made in the Middle East, interventions in Iraq and Libya.  It almost sounds like you would be -- as a general election candidate, you would be criticizing Hillary Clinton from the left, that we should be less intervening in the rest of the world.  

TRUMP:  I want to rebuild our country.  I want to rebuild our military, make it bigger, better, stronger than ever before.  I want to take care of our vets.  

We have to handle education.  We have to get rid of Obamacare.  You know, our education system is a disaster and we've got to get rid of Common Core which is absolutely no good.


WALLACE:  So, would it be fair to say that Hillary Clinton would be the hawk in this race?  

TRUMP:  But, Chris, we have so many things to do with our country, we can't have this anymore.  We are spending all of our money in the Middle East.  We’re spending numbers that are crazy.

WALLACE:  So, Mr. Trump --  

TRUMP:  And on top of that, we're defending the world.  We’re the policeman to the world.

WALLACE:  Would it be fair to say --

TRUMP:  And this country can't afford to do it.  

WALLACE:  Would it be fair to say that Hillary Clinton will be the hawk in this race, and you’ll be the dove?  

TRUMP:  No, I’ll tell you what?  I’ll be much tougher than her, I will have much more respect than her from foreign countries.  In fact, I read today where they're very concerned with me, they feel I’m very strong, very tough and they're very concerned.

So, that's a little opposite of what you're telling me.  That's a psychological thing which frankly is good.  Let them be a little concerned.

Look, we're defending Germany, we’re defending Japan, South Korea, we’re defending Saudi Arabia with all of that money and we’re not getting properly reimbursed.  

We don’t have any more and we’re defending -- we're like the policeman to the world.  What's going on is crazy.  

We’re going to strength on our military big league -- by the way, it's the cheapest money you can spend -- and we've got it pulled back because that is just a big mess.  That's a revolution, that's a civil war, that's a religious war going over there.  We're in the middle of it.  

For 15 years, we've been wasting time --  

WALLACE:  Mr. Trump --  

TRUMP:  -- killing lives, and I mean lives on both sides, OK?

WALLACE:  Mr. Trump, we're running out of time.  

TRUMP:  Hundreds of thousands, hundreds of thousands, even millions of people have been killed --

WALLACE:  Mr. Trump --

TRUMP:  -- because of horrible decision-making by our presidents.  

WALLACE:  -- we’re running out of time and for my 20th anniversary, let me ask a couple of questions, OK?  

TRUMP:  Yes.  

WALLACE:  President Obama, excuse me, took some shots at you again at the White House Correspondents Dinner last night.  Here’s one of them.  


BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES:  They say Donald lacks the foreign policy experience to be president.  But in fairness, he has spent years meeting with leaders from around the world, Miss Sweden, Miss Argentina --


WALLACE:  He also said that you could close Guantanamo Bay because you're good at running waterfront properties into the ground.  

TRUMP:  Well, I guess I’m good at something because I made $10 billion and I started with a $1 million loan.  So, now, I have over $10 billion of net worth.  So I guess I’m good at something.

And I have the best waterfront properties in the world.  So I don't even know what he's talking about.  But I have some of the great waterfront properties in the world.  You look Thornbury.  You look at all of the jobs I’ve done in Los Angeles and elsewhere.

WALLACE:  But your reaction to what the president had to say.  

TRUMP:  Well, I think it was fine.  It's a comedy.  I mean, it’s fine.  

I thought he did a nice job, it was good.  I wasn't there.  But I thought he did a nice job.  My children went, actually.  

WALLACE:  Finally, let's turn to the Indiana primary on Tuesday.  We talked with Ted Cruz earlier and we’ll play that in the next segment, but here is how he posed the choice for voters in Indiana.  Here he is.  


CRUZ:  You want a contrast of this entire race, it is Donald and Mike Tyson, a convicted rapist, versus me standing with Carly Fiorina and Mike Pence.  


WALLACE:  It's interesting.  The Cruz campaign is making an issue of your support for Mike Tyson back during the time of the rape conviction in 1992.  Your reaction to that?  

TRUMP:  It just shows what a liar he is.  So, Mike Tyson over the Internet endorsed me.  He said, "I endorse Mr. Trump."  He said that.  

That was it.  No big deal, I didn't have a meeting or anything, I haven't seen Mike in years, but he said he endorsed me.  

So, Cruz is now saying, oh, he was a rapist.  This guy is a real liar.  That's why we call him Lyin’ Ted Cruz.  I mean, the greatest liar that I’ve ever lived, except he gets caught every time.

Look, I have Bobby Knight's endorsement.  We go around.  In fact, I’m going right now after this show, I’m going to Indiana.  We’re going to have Bobby Knight.  We’re going to have other people that are unbelievable.

And, by the way, if you really take a look at Mike Pence, I think he gave me more of an endorsement than he gave Cruz.  He started off with Donald Trump and what a great job he’s done.  

I mean, look, his donors and special interest obviously made him give an endorsement, but you know, Chris, because you've covered it, most people think it was more of an endorsement for me than it was Cruz.  It was the weakest endorsement anyone has seen in a long time.  

WALLACE:  Final 30 seconds.  Final 30 seconds.  If you win Indiana Tuesday, is this race over?  

TRUMP:  Yes, it's over.  I think it's over now, but it's over.  

Cruz cannot win, he’s got no highway, he's got nothing, he's way behind.  I’m leading him by millions and millions of votes and I’m leading him by 400 or 500 delegates.  He can't win.  

WALLACE:  Mr. Trump, thank you.  Thanks for your time and thank you so much for coming in today, sir.  

TRUMP:  Thank you very much.  Happy anniversary.  

WALLACE:  Thank you.  

Up next, it's do-or-die for Ted Cruz in Indiana.  We'll talk with him about the extraordinary steps he took this week to try to save his campaign.  

And as "Fox News Sunday" marks 20 years on the air, we'll play some highlights.  The first from an interview I did with the original host, Tony Snow, about a day none of us will ever forget.  


TONY SNOW, FORMER FOX NEWS HOST:  Good morning.  I’m Tony Snow and welcome to "Fox News Sunday."

WALLACE:  Over the seven-plus years, is there one show, one Sunday that stands out?  

SNOW:  Right after September 11th.  

WALLACE:  You choked up at the end.  

SNOW: Yes.  Of course I did.  

A solitary candle, a flag, a tear, these are the tokens of our renewal.  

At the end I got choked up by saying we're not going to lose and I get choked up even thinking about it now.



WALLACE:  A look outside the beltway at Notre Dame University in Indiana.  

On Tuesday, voters in the Hoosier State go to the polls in a primary that Senator Ted Cruz hopes won't be his last stand.  I spoke with him yesterday about his effort to breathe new life into his campaign.  


WALLACE:  Senator, I want to start with some of the unusual steps you took this week to shore up your campaign.  First of all, your deal with John Kasich, where he's staying out of Indiana, and you're going to stay out of Oregon and New Mexico.  You like to rail against the Washington cartel, but isn't your deal with John Kasich the essence of a cartel?

CRUZ:  Well, Chris, good morning.  It's good to be with you.  Thank you for having me.  And congratulations on your 20th anniversary as a show.  It's always a pleasure to join you.

WALLACE:  Thank you.

CRUZ:  Listen.  It is very simple.  With Kasich, he made a decision about allocation of resources.  I made a decision about allocation of resources. He decided to pull out of Indiana to focus elsewhere.  I made the decision to go all-in on Indiana and to focus on Indiana.

And that's a natural thing.  Both of our campaigns did it from the perspective of where we thought we were best positioned to win.

And I will tell you what John Kasich and I do agree on.  We disagree on some policy issues.  But we agree that Hillary Clinton would be disastrous as the next president of this country, and that nominating Donald Trump ensures that Hillary Clinton wins.  

So, neither one of us want to see Donald Trump as the nominee handing the general election to Hillary Clinton --


WALLACE:  But, sir --

CRUZ:  -- and that's why I am campaigning so hard in Indiana to win the great state of Indiana.

WALLACE:  But sir, it was -- it is a deal, you'd certainly agree.  And I want to put up what you said about the deal this week.  Here it is.


CRUZ:  I recognize that the media is all eager to talk about an alliance.  There is no alliance.


WALLACE: But shortly after, John Weaver, Kasich's chief strategist, tweeted this: "I can't stand liars," clearly implying that it is an alliance and that there was an agreement between the two camps.

CRUZ:  Listen.  Our focus is on winning Indiana.  And I'll tell you what the voters of Indiana care about.  They care about jobs.  They care about bringing jobs back to America.  They care about bringing manufacturing jobs back to America.  They care about raising wages for working men and women who've been left in the cold.

They care about ending this administration's war on coal, which is wrong and immoral.  And they care about expanding opportunity for young people.  

So, that is my focus.  We are barnstorming the state.

And I've got to say, Chris, this has been an incredible week.  In this past week, we received just a couple of days ago the support of Indiana's governor, Mike Pence, an incredibly well-respected, strong conservative in Indiana.

We received just yesterday the support of former governor Pete Wilson in California, another strong leader that is a big deal in the state that I think is going to decide this whole thing.  And then obviously, earlier this week we announced Carly Fiorina as my vice presidential nominee --


WALLACE:  Wait -- Senator, let me get --

CRUZ:  -- and I've got to say, that announcement has injected energy and momentum.  People are excited --

WALLACE:  Senator, let me -- let me get to --

CRUZ:  -- about having a clear and meaningful contract.

WALLACE:  Let me get to Carly Fiorina, and specifically on the issue of jobs -- yes, you did name her as your running mate this week.  

Outsourcing is a big issue in Indiana, I don't have to tell you, because the company that controls Carrier Air Conditioning has announced they're going to ship 2,100 --

CRUZ:  Yes.  Yes.

WALLACE:  -- jobs from Indiana to Mexico.  But Fiorina has a record as head of Hewlett-Packard, laying of 30,000 people and outsourcing many of those jobs to India and China.  

So I guess the question is, will the Cruz-Fiorina team do the same thing to Indiana that she did to Hewlett-Packard?


CRUZ:  Carly has an incredible business record and an incredible personal story.  You know, Carly started off as a secretary, and she rose the corporate ladder, became CEO of the largest technology company in the world --


WALLACE:  But sir, it does include laying off 30,000 Americans.

CRUZ:  -- the first female CEO of -- she was the first female CEO of a Fortune 20 company in history, and she helped HP become the largest technology company in the world, achieve remarkable success.  Many of those jobs, by the way, were transferred from one state to another within the United States.

But let me tell you, when it comes to bringing jobs back to America, there could not be a clearer contrast between Carly and me on the one hand and Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton on the other.  Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton are flip sides of the same coin, and they both have the same approach.

Let's take Carrier.  Carrier's a very good example.  It is a travesty that Carrier is pulling jobs out of Indiana, moving them to Mexico.  But the reason they're doing it is because of the Obama administration's crushing taxes and crushing regulations.

Now, what is Donald Trump's response to that?  It is -- he says he's going to punish Carrier.  He's going to use the power of the federal government to punish them.  By the way, that's the same thing Hillary Clinton says, it's the same thing Barack Obama says.

That's the response of big government liberals, that we're going to enact policies that kill jobs, and then when businesses flee, we're going to use the power of government to punish them.

My approach is totally different.  I understand what both Reagan and John F. Kennedy understood, that when you cut taxes and reduce regulations, you see millions and millions of new jobs.  So, what I'm going to do is repeal Obamacare, rein in the regulators that are killing jobs, the over 200 regulations --


WALLACE:  Senator --

CRUZ:  -- from the Department of --

WALLACE:  Senator, I don't mean --

CRUZ:  -- from Energy that drove Carrier to Mexico.

WALLACE:  -- I don't mean to interrupt, but your people have insisted on limited time, so I do want to get to some other questions.  

You talked about Fiorina.  Back when she was a candidate running for president, she took some shots at you.  Here was one.


CARLY FIORINA, R-FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  Ted Cruz is just like any other politician, he says one thing in Manhattan, he says another thing in Iowa, he says whatever he needs to say to get elected, and then he's going to do as he pleases.


WALLACE:  Less than four months ago, there was your running mate basically saying you're a typical politician.

CRUZ:  Look, Chris.  She was a competitor in a primary, she was a vigorous competitor, and competitors in primaries throw shots at each other. We all remember when Reagan named George Herbert Walker Bush and they immediately had to explain why Bush had called Reaganomics "Voodoo Economics."

What I can tell you is I spent weeks and weeks and weeks campaigning with Carly on the road, barnstorming.  We've been barnstorming all over the state of Indiana together.  I've gotten to know her personally.

And I've got to tell you, in selecting a vice president, that's probably the most serious decision any presidential candidate will make.  I was looking for someone with knowledge, with judgment, and with character, with the sort of temperament to make calm, cool, reasoned decisions, not to fly off on the handle, not to just be rash and respond --

WALLACE:  Right.

CRUZ:  -- to the latest Twitter storm, but to respond to the real problems facing this country.  And the contrast is important.  We've got to fix these problems.  It's one thing to yell about jobs.  It's another thing to know how to fix them.

And it's why I drew the contrast that Donald says he'd yell and scream and punish Carrier, but he has no economic policies to bring those jobs back.

If I'm elected president, I believe Carrier will bring those jobs back to Indiana because we're going to create such an attractive business environment that we're going to see companies from all over the world moving to America, creating jobs.  Because we will have reduced taxes, passed a flat tax --

WALLACE:  All right.

CRUZ:  -- abolished the IRS, reined in the regulators.  It matters how you do this, and Donald has no solutions.

WALLACE:  Senator, I --

CRUZ:  In fact, you know, his one economic policy --


WALLACE:  Senator, if I may, and again --

CRUZ:  -- is a massive tax increase.

WALLACE:  I hate to interrupt, but we do have limited time, at your campaign's insistence.  

I also want to ask you about former House Speaker John Boehner, who talked about you this week, as you well know.  Here he is.


BOEHNER:  Lucifer in the flesh.


BOEHNER:  I get along with almost everybody.  But I have never worked with a more miserable son of a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) in my life.



WALLACE:  And Senator, it's not just Boehner.  Congressman Pete King of New York says, "I hate Ted Cruz."  

Former Senator Judd Gregg said this about you, "He's a demagogue's demagogue, and he shouldn't be trusted with the responsibilities of the office."  

How do you unite, as you're trying to right now, the Republican Party to stop Trump when you're perhaps more polarizing than he is?

CRUZ:  Well, Chris, it's very simple.  Let me say first of all, I don't know John Boehner.  He and I have maybe said 50 words to each other in our entire lives --


WALLACE:  I know, but he knows you, and he feels that you worked against him --

CRUZ:  I never met --

WALLACE:  -- in the House stopping some of the deals he was trying to make.

CRUZ:  You're exactly right, and he is correct on that.

WALLACE:  Right.

CRUZ:  And you know what?  In that same comment, in that -- let me finish, Chris, please.  In that same comment, John Boehner praised Hillary Clinton, said he thought she was terrific, and he also praised Donald Trump, said Donald is his friend, is his golfing and texting buddy.

And you're right.  The reason Donald hates me is not anything I've ever said or done to him.  It's that I stood with the American people and said we need to actually do what we said we would do.  We need to fight against Obamacare, we need to fight against the debt that's bankrupting our country, and we need to stop amnesty.

And Boehner wanted to cut deals with Obama and Hillary, and that -- what this reveals, you know, the biggest fraud of this entire election is Donald Trump pretending to be an outsider.  John Boehner and Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton are all Washington insiders.  It's the same corrupt Washington game.

And as you put it, Boehner's mad at me because I fought against the deals he was cutting with Obama.  Donald Trump is exactly like Boehner and Hillary --

WALLACE:  I've got --

CRUZ:  -- in cutting those deals, and that's why the American people want someone --

WALLACE:  I have one last --

CRUZ:  -- like Carly and me to stand with them instead of Washington.

WALLACE:  I have one last question for you, and again, in the limited time that your campaign has given us, in a fundraising email this week, you say this: "Make no mistake, Indiana is absolutely pivotal."

Senator, you finally have Trump in the one-on-one contest that you've been longing for.  Indiana would seem to be a conservative state that would favor you.  If you don't win in Indiana under these circumstances, is this race over?

CRUZ:  Well, listen, I agree that Indiana is incredibly important.  I think regardless of what happens in Indiana, Donald Trump is not getting to 1,237.  No one's getting to 1,237.  We're headed to a contested convention.  I'm going to have a ton of delegates at that convention.  Donald's going to have a ton of delegates --


WALLACE:  But if he beats you --

CRUZ:  -- and it's going to be a battle --

WALLACE:  -- is this race over?

CRUZ:  -- to see who can earn a majority.  

Of course not.  It's going to be a battle to see who can earn a majority of the delegates elected by the people at the convention.

And the reason Donald is so frantic to say the race is over and trying to get all of his media acolytes to say the race is over is because Donald knows he cannot earn a majority of the delegates that were elected by the people.  And you've got to win a majority.  If you can't win a majority --

WALLACE:  Senator --

CRUZ:  -- it means you can't unite the party and you can't win.  And let me make one final point, Chris.

If you want as clear a contrast as possible in Indiana, this week in Indiana, I was celebrating the support of Carly Fiorina and Mike Pence.  This week in Indiana, Donald Trump was celebrating the support of Mike Tyson, a convicted rapist who spent three years in prison --

WALLACE:  Well, he also has the support of Bobby Knight.

CRUZ:  -- in Indiana.

WALLACE:  He also has the support of Bobby Knight.

CRUZ:  But let me be clear, Chris.  Donald said he thinks Mike Tyson is "tough guy."  Well, I don't think rapists are tough guys.  I think they are cowards and weaklings and bullies.

And you want to contrast of this entire race -- it is Donald and Mike Tyson, a convicted rapist, versus me standing with Carly Fiorina and Mike Pence.  And I think the good people of the Hoosier State, that's a choice Midwestern common sense and good judgment is going to yield, I hope, the right decision.

WALLACE:  Senator, thank you very much.  Next up -- I hope we have more time to talk with each other, always appreciate it.

CRUZ:  I look forward to it.  


WALLACE:  Up next, we'll bring in our Sunday group to discuss the battle for Indiana.  

Plus, what would you like to ask the panel about the move by Cruz naming Carly Fiorina as his running mate?  Just go to Facebook or Twitter @FoxNewsSunday and we may use your question on the air.  


WALLACE (2008): Why didn't you do more to put bin Laden and al Qaeda out of business when you were president?

BILL CLINTON: So you did Fox's bidding on this show, you did your nice little conservative hit job on me. What I want to know is this.

WALLACE:  Well, wait a minute, sir, I’m asking a question.

BILL CLINTON: Now, wait -- wait --

WALLACE:  You don’t think that’s a legitimate question?

BILL CLINTON:  No, no, I’m -- no, it was a perfectly legitimate question, but I want to know how many people in the Bush administration you asked this question to (ph).

WALLACE (2004):  Dr. Rice, all the talk about the nuclear program, all the talk about aluminum tubes was wrong.

CONDOLEEZZA RICE, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: The intelligence at the time, and, Chris, it is the fact that you can only act today on what you knew yesterday.


WALLACE:  Coming up, Donald Trump says Hillary Clinton is playing the woman's card. Now she's firing back.


HILLARY CLINTON, D-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If fighting for women's healthcare and paid family leave and equal pay is playing the woman card, then deal me in.


WALLACE:  We'll ask our panel how the gender wars will affect the 2016 race.



FIORINA: I think we are engaged in a fight for the soul of our party. I think values and principle and policies actually matter.


WALLACE:  Ted Cruz and his running mate, Carly Fiorina, now both taking on Donald Trump ahead of the crucial Indiana primary.

And it's time now for our Sunday group. Syndicated columnist George Will, co-host of "The Five," Kimberly Guilfoyle, author of the book "Making the Case," GOP strategist, Karl Rove, and Fox News political analyst Juan Williams, whose book "We the People" is just out. And I don't have a book. I’ve got nothing to sell today.

We asked you for questions for the panel and we got a bunch, most of them negative, about Cruz picking Carly Fiorina as his running mate at this point in the race. Jay Klein said this on Facebook, "an act of desperation from a dying campaign." Chad tweeted this, "desperate move. Who picks a vice president before securing the nomination. Really."

Karl, how do you answer Jay and Chad, are they right or could the Fiorina move help Cruz?

KARL ROVE, FORMER BUSH WHITE HOUSE ADVISOR: They're right and it could help Cruz. I -- I received an e-mail this week from Ted. He said, frankly, Indiana could be the deciding factor. He admitted to me that it was, quote, "absolutely pivotal." And if Trump wins Indiana --

WALLACE:  I got that same e-mail. It was (INAUDIBLE).

ROVE: Well, wait -- wait -- wait a minute, wait a minute, you mean I -- it went to more than one person. He said if Trump won Indiana, it could all be but over.

WALLACE:  Right.

ROVE: So, look, this is not a strategic move. This was a tactical move. The Acela primary was a night of good night for Donald Trump and what better way to stop people in Indiana from focusing on that than naming your presidential running mate and spending a lot of time in Indiana. And so they, you know -- it -- and it was a desperate move, but it -- it may have shut down a certain amount of the coverage of Trump's Acela primary win and spent a little bit more time on the pizazz of a vice presidential running mate. This -- we’ve seen this before. Ronald Reagan did this in 1976, desperate to overcome the advantage that Gerald Ford had at the convention. Really desperate to make inroads among the 54 uncommitted delegates in the Pennsylvania delegation. Several weeks before the convention he names Richard Schweiker.

WALLACE:  Did -- did it work?

ROVE: No, it didn't.

WALLACE:  All right, Kimberly, let me pick up on you.


WALLACE:  Because it wasn't the only move. You had Cruz naming Fiorina. You had Cruz making the deal that he says wasn't an alliance with Kasich to get him out. Daring or desperate?

GUILFOYLE: Yes, I think I’m -- of course you have to make some daring attempts if you want to have a campaign of no regrets. I think this is part of his narrative going forward to be able to try to stay in the race. If he does not succeed in Indiana, he can say I'm going with Carly. This is someone from California. This is jobs. Hopefully to motivate women and other suburbans to come out and support him.

I think it was the only play that he had. I still think ultimately that he’s not going to prevail in Indiana. It won’t be enough. It wasn't enough of a ringing endorsement of Pence. Trump outplayed him with the endorsement of Bobby Knight. That was resounding. It was along (ph) with the Trump message (ph).

WALLACE:  We -- we need to point out, and let me just say, for people who don't know, because this is the third reference to him, Bobby Knight was the legendary basketball coach of the Indiana Hoosiers college basketball team.

GUILFOYLE: Yes, and then you had Ted Cruz referring to the ring. So there was a number of missteps.

WALLACE:  He did say a basketball ring.

GUILFOYLE: Instead of the hoop, right? So that wasn't exactly a winning moment or comment in -- in the Indiana state. So he's got a tough time going forward. There's some different polls. I know Karl has one that he shows that he does quite well in. But right now the momentum is -- is with Donald Trump. I think Carly was a nice pick. I don't think she's a game changer.

WALLACE:  George, you have made it very clear during this campaign, and you make it clear in your column today, how much you don't like Mr. Trump. But I want to put up a new poll just out this morning from NBC which shows -- and this is pretty dramatic and -- and I must say, unlike a lot of the other polls, Trump now with a 15 point lead, 49 to 34 over Cruz in Indiana with Kasich back at 13. I mean if it's anything close to that, this race is over, isn't it?

GEORGE WILL, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST: That is important if true. So is the poll from the Center for Indiana Politics, which has Cruz up almost 16 points, 44.8 to 29 for Trump and 13 for Kasich. This was the one-on-one fight that Cruz wanted with Trump with an asterisk, that is, a lot of people voted early before the so-called pact between Cruz and Kasich. This was supposed to be favorable to rain, but partly because the social issues have played a large part in the Indiana politics. The problem is, Indiana politics has been convulsed by social issues and it may be a burnt over affair and people may be a little tired of that.

Finally, there’s been a common portrayal of Indiana as a prostrate industrial power destroyed by NAFTA and other things. Indiana has the nation’s highest percentage of its GDP from manufacturing, all 50 states. So in a way, under the policies of Mitch Daniels and then Mike Pence, that both Cruz and Trump have praised, the state is thriving.

WALLACE:  Would you agree -- and, as you say, take the poll that you choose and --and -- and go with that, but if on Tuesday night Trump wins, over?

WILL: Yes. How’s that for an answer?

WALLACE:  Yes. But, I mean, that's it, race is over?

WILL: It -- it would be like drawing to an inside straight in poker. (INAUDIBLE).


ROVE: The fight -- the fight will go on but I think it will be really with the idea of accumulating delegates for fights on the platform and influence over the vice presidential nomination if Trump wins.

WALLACE:  Which -- which raises the question, Juan, if we do end up, as a lot of people have been news junkies probably hoping, some people perhaps dreading, a Clinton/Trump general election, the insiders say Clinton wins, Trump's negatives among Hispanics, among young people, among women are too high, but the conventional wisdom has been pretty wrong all year.

JUAN WILLIAMS, FOX NEWS POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, the conventional wisdom was that Republican voters might change, almost wake up and say, hey, you know, wait, I mean we’re having fun with Donald Trump, it’s very entertaining, but this is getting serious. It didn't happen. But here’s the thing, Chris, the polls have been consistent in terms of Trump versus Clinton. The polls have not varied there. GOP electorate dominated by white males, older males and the general election voter is far more diverse. So Trump is right now in trouble, as you just said, not only with Latinos, but let's put in the black voters, let's put in women voters, let's put in young voters, millennials, right? So there's just no question there that I think George Will once talked about this blue wall in terms of the electoral college. The electoral college has been consistent just like the polls. What state is Donald Trump going to flip? I don't see it.

WALLACE:  Well -- well, wait, you -- you asked that rhetorically. But he said --

WILLIAMS: I'm not being rhetorical, I'm being very real about that.

WALLACE:  No, but he says a lot of those industrial upper Midwest states, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin --

WILLIAMS: Not -- not one. Even if he were to flip Pennsylvania, you know, Virginia, Florida, he still loses. You have got a Democratic built in advantage in terms of the electoral college and Donald Trump is the least effective Republican right now to change that electoral map.

WALLACE:  Do you agree with -- I know you’re not a big Trump fan, but is there a path to 270 electoral votes for him?

ROVE: There is, but it's an ugly path. Let's -- let’s start with this, the favorable/unfavorable in Real Clear Politics for Donald Trump is 28.4 favorable, 65.4 unfavorable. A 37 point deficit.

WALLACE:  Of course her unfavorables are --

ROVE: I was about ready to get to that. About ready to get to that, 38.4 favorable for Hillary Clinton, 54.9 unfavorable, a 16.5 deficit. So they’re both in bad shape. Both of them upside down. That would point toward the only way that you can win for Trump is to make -- is to make Hillary Clinton worse than he is. And that's going to be difficult because, remember, by the time we get to the conventions, July 20 -- July 18th and July 25th, about 80 percent of the campaign will have been over. And the -- and once these opinions are in place, they're difficult to change.

One final point. In the latest Wall Street Journal/NBC poll, you liked that last one that you put up there, Clinton's negatives are 56 percent negative, 42 very. Trump's are 65 negative, 53 very.

WILLIAMS: Yes. Let me just quickly add in here --


WILLIAMS: So the story that you --

WALLACE:  (INAUDIBLE) different than the last 20 years. All right, quickly.

WILLIAMS: No, I was just going to quickly add in. So, I mean, Hillary Clinton, with those negatives, you would say, boy, Republicans should be celebrating. But, in fact, with Trump in the race, Trump becomes the story and h attracts the -- he’s the lightning rod for that negative opinion.

WALLACE:  All right, we need to take a break here. When we come back, Donald Trump lays out his vision for America's foreign policy and President Obama makes his final appearance at the White House Correspondents Dinner. Our Sunday group gives us their reviews.


WALLACE (2008) :  Six weeks ago we started something called the Obama watch. The amount of time that had passed since the senator promised me he would come on "Fox News Sunday."


WALLACE: Long time no see.




TRUMP: My foreign policy will always put the interests of the American people and American security above all else. America first will be the major and overriding theme of my administration.


WALLACE:  Donald Trump unveiling his foreign policy vision this week in Washington.

And we're back now with the panel.

Well, George, the Trump campaign made a big deal about this foreign policy speech, saying that -- that the candidate was putting some meat, some policy meat, on the bones of his campaign. How did he do?

WILL: Well, it’s like a Cornish game hen that's mostly bone, I’m afraid, not much meat. He said our foreign policy should be disciplined, deliberate and consistent, but unpredictable. They may be able to square that circle. There was a time during the Vietnam peace negotiations when Nixon, it was called the madman theory, wanted to convince them that he was a little bit cracked and that they might want to negotiate for that reason. Mr. Trump said we should abide by our agreements, except the trade agreements that have brought the world together through the World Trade Organization, which he promises, I think, to -- to repudiate.

WALLACE:  And the Iran deal.

WILL: And the Iran deal. He also referred to our problems with Russia as a cycle of hostility, which is a kind of way of postulating moral equivalence, they do something, we do something, everyone’s to blame. And finally he said, Obama has made Iran a great power. That seems to me an example of what's been called narcissistic policy disorder, the belief that everything that happens in the world is because of something we did or didn't do. And it, again, it sort of inflates the American role at a time when Mr. Trump was trying, I think, to withdraw America's role and shrink it a bit.

WALLACE:  Kimberly --


WALLACE:  Do you see a coherent Trump policy or is it mostly just assurances, trust me, I'll make it work?

GUILFOYLE: Well, you can see the Trump doctrine that he's trying to develop by saying that he wants to build up our military, because there has been significant military cuts. We need to do that. We need to be able to, I think, modify drastically the rules of engagement which have been crippling in many instances to those that go overseas to fight for us.

When you look at the juxtaposition of the failed policy of the past eight years of President Barack Obama, the nation and the military is willing and ready for a change. We are not doing better, in a better position in the Middle East, failure to engage with proper status of forces agreements in place. We have lost tremendous ground in the Middle East. You look at the rise of ISIS, the caliphate. That's what the country is seeing. And we need a strong leader, somebody that's going to have the right people in place. What I think would be significant is to get the right team, including perhaps even a vice presidential pick, a strong general, someone like a Petraeus or someone with significant foreign policy experience like a Condoleezza Rice would be an outstanding choice.

WALLACE:  Do you know something?

GUILFOYLE: Well, I know that I'm interested in having a Republican in the White House. And if it the establishment doesn’t work against Donald Trump, I --

WALLACE:  Well, no, but, I mean do you -- do you have some idea that he's going to appoint --

GUILFOYLE: I'm telling you it will be very different ones he gets the nomination, you will see how many people are going to get on board and want to take back the White House and prevent Hillary Clinton from getting back in and having the same policies that she’s been tethered to with Barack Obama.

WALLACE:  Karl, what's interesting talking about Clinton and Trump, I asked Trump about the fact that he seems -- you know he talked in a sense like a liberal Democrat about we need to stop sending so much overseas, we need to spend more building up at home. How would it work if you had a campaign in which in effect the Republican nominee was running on foreign policy to the left of the Democratic nominee?

ROVE: Well, he may attempt to do that. For example, in his remarks in his speech he attacked her for, as she and President Obama, for having removed Gaddafi from power. The problem is, he, at the same time, he was out -- was out there saying Gaddafi needs to be removed from power. There are so many contradictions. George touched on a couple. Let me add one -- a couple more. He said no more foreign wars, and yet we're going to remove ISIS, quote, "and it's going to be gone quickly." Well, how -- how do you remove ISIS gone quickly if you’re -- if you don't send American troops abroad?

He said we're going to end nation building. No more, quote, "spreading universal values that not everyone shares or wants," and in the next sentence says, "instead we're going to strengthen and promote western civilization and its accomplishment." Well, that sounds like those universal values of respect for human rights and rule of law.

But, look this was -- this -- I agree with George, there was no plan in here. We're going to quickly balance the trade deficit with China. Quickly balance. How -- how are you going to do that? There are going to be consequences --

WALLACE:  Well, he says we're going to be tough and we’re going to threaten and we’re going to raise tariffs.

ROVE: No, no, no, he didn’t --

WALLACE:  Well, look, that's what he's saying.

ROVE: He didn't say that in that speech. And -- and -- and, look, we need to have the meat on the bones, so to speak. There are going to be consequences for companies opening facilities abroad in that speech. We're going to rebuild our military. It's going to be, quote, "funded beautifully." Well, this is a guy who says, I'm going to erase the $19 trillion debt in the next eight years during which our government is expected, under current laws, to spend $38 trillion, we're going to cut the federal budget in half, then we're going to cut taxes by $10 trillion and somehow we’re going to beautifully rebuild our --

WALLACE:  OK, so when it comes to Trump, I'm going to put you down as a definite maybe.

ROVE: Well, look, I mean --

WALLACE:  I’ve got -- I’ve got to move -- I’ve got to move on here because last night -- let’s get to the really important thing, was the White House Correspondents Dinner. The nerd promises called and President Obama's final appearance there, and there was some buzz about what he was going to do, the show stopper was a video that he put on where he goes -- he asks an old friend, a surprise friend, about how he should deal with retirement. Take a look.


OBAMA: Now that is a great movie.

BOEHNER: Yes, it’s a good movie. It's a good movie.

Here’s the beauty to this whole thing. You’ve got all the time in the world to figure this out. You can just be you for a while. If you know how to do that again.

OBAMA: So I can just be me?

BOEHNER: Look here. Look here. Yes, you want one?


WALLACE:  I've got to say, that brought down the house.


WALLACE:  One last puff of a cigarette. Juan, you were there. How did the president do?

WILLIAMS: I think he did very well. And I think he's done well in terms of the performances at this dinners. Chris, you've been there, so you would know. I thought there were two great lines. The one actually was a visual thing where he said, you know, my numbers, my ratings numbers keep going up. Nobody can figure out -- and then they put up the pictures of Cruz and Trump. The -- the -- this point -- and he was also funny when he said he’s going to go -- make -- go to Goldman Sachs and repeat some of these jokes and make a lot of Tubmans, you know.

But I think the disappointing part was the comedian Larry Wilmore. You know, Obama, at the end, he drops the mic, right? Well, Wilmore just dropped into the most scuralose (ph) kind of language and racial language after praising the president as the first black man, leader of the free world. He uses the "n" word and talks about my "n" word. It was so awful. It was embarrassing to America. But I think to black people, to black America, it was awful -- it was degrading and --and suggested somehow that this president is only to be judged in that manner. I just -- I was so disappointed because I -- I was hoping for Larry Wilmore to knock the ball out of the park.

WALLACE:  Karl, you were a top adviser in the Bush White House. As you’ve just told us, you were forced by the president to go every year to the White House Correspondents Dinner.

ROVE: Actually, the press shop, but that’s another thing.

WALLACE:  OK. Why do presidents go to such trouble to kill at this event?

ROVE: Because there are 3,500 people in the room who buy ink by the barrel and videotape by the mile and you better perform well or you will be excoriated in every newspaper and on every network and we will spend lots of time on Sunday morning talk programs talking about your performance. I thought the president did best when he was making fun of himself and did worse when he spent way too much time taking every one of his adversaries in the media and politics and doing them in.

WALLACE:  He actually didn't do much about the media. He -- he really went after the other politicians.


WALLACE:  Thank you, panel. See you next week.

Up next, some personal thoughts, looking back on 20 years of "Fox News Sunday."


WALLACE (20100 : And you made some news recently in Australia when you ruled out running again for office in 2012 and 2016. Why?

CLINTON: Well, first of all, I love what I'm doing.

WALLACE:  Are you categorically saying that you are done with political office, elective office?

CLINTON: I -- I -- I have said -- I have said -- I -- I am. I am very happy doing what I'm doing and I am not to -- in any way interested in or pursuing anything in elective office.




MIKE TYSON, BOXER (2013): I don't have a glamorous lifestyle or anything.

WALLACE:  And do you miss that?

TYSON: No, I'm -- I’m old and I --

WALLACE:  Old? What are you 40 --

TYSON: Forty-six, yes.

WALLACE:  What am I?

TYSON: A dinosaur.


WALLACE:  It's not every day Mike Tyson takes a shot and you live to laugh about it.

That's been the joy of "Fox News Sunday," ever since Tony Snow handed this seat to me 13 years ago. You get to talk with the most interesting people in the world, ask tough questions and see what happens. I've been chewed out by one president and I went to Camp David to interview another. And there was Vladimir Putin, who seemed amused by the kind of questions he doesn't get asked in the Kremlin.

But Sundays are different from the rest of the week, more personal, and that's been part of this program, too. I had an unforgettable interview with my dad, in which we put aside the wise cracks and said what we meant to each other. I paid tribute to my beloved Winston and all you dog lovers understood just how painful his passing was. And there’s my favorite tradition, getting the Wallace grandkids together each year to wish everyone a Merry Christmas. The clan grew by one a couple years ago and this week I realized, for the first time, Libby shares a birthday, April 28th, with this show.

Most of all, these Sundays are about you. You cheer our successes and let me have it when I've made a mistake. You suggested questions I should have asked and more often than not you're right. We are all so grateful you invite us into your home each Sunday. And so as we begin our 21st year, we end the way we always do.

That's it for today. Have a great week and we'll see you next "Fox News Sunday."


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