Trump's new top adviser talks pivoting to a traditional campaign; Debbie Wasserman Schultz on the prolonged Democratic race

This is a rush transcript from "Fox News Sunday," April 24, 2016. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.


Team Trump says we’ll soon see a new candidate on the campaign trail.  You'll hear from the man behind the planned makeover of the GOP front runner, only on "Fox News Sunday."


WALLACE:  We caught a glimpse of a more presidential Donald Trump in his New York victory speech.  

DONALD TRUMP, R-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  Senator Cruz is just about mathematically eliminated.  

WALLACE:  For one night, no more "Lyin’ Ted".  But can it last?  

TRUMP:  Now, my wife is constantly saying, "Darling, be more presidential."  I just don't know that I want to do it quite yet.  

WALLACE:  Paul Manafort, Trump's new top adviser, discusses the pivot to a more traditional campaign.  It's a "Fox News Sunday" exclusive.  

Then, Bernie Sanders insists he still has a shot at the Democratic nomination, even as Hillary Clinton extends her delegate lead.  

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS, I-VT., DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  This campaign is doing well because we're doing something very radical.  We're telling the truth.  

WALLACE:  We'll ask Democratic Party Chair Debbie Wasserman Schultz whether the prolonged race is hurting the eventual nominee.  

Plus, our Sunday group looks ahead to Tuesday when five East Coast states hold primaries.  

And our power player of the week: two baby eaglets draw new attention to an outdoor laboratory here in Washington.  

All, right now, on "Fox News Sunday."


WALLACE:  And hello again from Fox News in Washington.  

The Trump campaign which until now has been known for its larger-than-life candidate says the boss is ready to tone it down.  What's being called a makeover comes as Donald Trump looks poised to sweep five East Coast primaries on Tuesday.  

Paul Manafort, Trump's new top adviser, is behind the effort to rally the GOP around the front runner.  

And, Paul, welcome to "Fox News Sunday."


WALLACE:  You met with members of the Republican national committee in Florida in week to try to reassure them about Donald Trump, but in your effort, it raised some new concerns.  It was supposed to be a closed-door meeting but, of course, somebody taped it.  

Here’s a clip.  


MANAFORT:  The part he’s been playing is evolving into the part of that you’ve been expecting but he wasn't ready for it because he had the first phase.  You’ll start to see more depth to the person, the real person.  You’ll see him in a different way.


WALLACE:  Playing a part, see the real person.  Trump has been campaigning for ten months now and we haven't seen the real man?  

MANAFORT:  What that clip was related to was a question that was asked talking about the settings that he was going to be in.  On the campaign setting, you're seeing the real Donald Trump in campaign mode talking to -- talking to people who believe in his candidacy.  

I was dealing with members of the Republican National Committee who have a different role from a organizational standpoint and they wanted to know about things like is he going to be giving speeches on policies, is he going to be involved in settings that are not rally-oriented, and that was the context I was talking about.  We were evolving the campaign, not the candidate, and the settings were going to start changing.  

WALLACE:  Forgive me, it does seem a little bit like spin because -- I mean, the words, the part that he has been playing, "You will start to see more depth of the person, the real person."  You're not talking about rallies versus some other setting.  

MANAFORT:  I was talking about rallies versus setting.

WALLACE:  That's not what you said.  

MANAFORT:  Well, in the context of that room, that's what I said and that's what was understood.  When it was taken out of context, and the question that was asked to me wasn't prefaced with my answer, you get a distorted thing.  Donald Trump said it yesterday on the campaign trail in Waterbury, in Bridgeport, he addressed the issue completely.  

Look, I’m playing to -- when I’m out here I want to talk to you and be -- to show you who I am in this environment.  When I’m going to give a policy speech, I’m going to be giving a policy speech.  

He said it straight up.  

WALLACE:  OK.  According to Ted Cruz -- and understandably he is not a great supporter of you or Donald Trump -- he says what you were saying is that Trump the conservative is just a show.  Here is Cruz.  


SEN. TED CRUZ, R-TEXAS, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  He doesn't believe anything he is saying, he is just trying to fool gullible voters and he's not going to do any of it.  He's not going to build a wall.  He is a not going to deport anyone.  He is telling us he is lying to us.  


WALLACE:  When you talk about Trump playing a part, Cruz says that's what you mean.  

MANAFORT:  There's the liar, not Trump.  I mean, he’s got to change the narrative.  He's losing.  You know, he is on the cusp of having the nomination be mathematically taken away from him.  And so, he's trying to change the narrative.  

We never talked about the wall.  Donald Trump -- I never said Trump wasn't going to build a wall.  I never said Trump was going to change any of his positions.  We’ve never even talk about that in the meeting.

Cruz just made that up from whole cloth because he's got to find something that gets people away from focusing on the real campaign which is next Tuesday when he's going to lose all five states and probably finish third in most of them.  

He’s got a failed candidacy and you can see in that desperate kind of tactic the kind of way he's trying to gloss over it.  Just like he did with Carson in Iowa and with Rubio in Florida, he just makes things up when he is -- when he feels cornered.  

WALLACE:  Now, you say he is losing but in fact, he had a pretty good weekend.  

MANAFORT:  He did not.  

WALLACE:  Well, one of your jobs is to make sure that the delegates that are actually selected, the people that are going to sit in the seats are Trump supporters who will continue to support him if the convention goes beyond the first ballot.  But yesterday, Trump picked up at least 65 delegates, the people sitting in those seats, even if they have to vote for Trump in the first round, are Cruz supporters and the Cruz campaign says you guys picked up two, 65 to two.  That's not losing.  

MANAFORT:  You've been around a long time, Chris.  

WALLACE:  Don't rub it in, but go ahead.  

MANAFORT:  The only vote that matters is the vote that's cast when the roll call is called.  On Saturday, Ted Cruz won zero.  Not 36, not 66 -- zero delegates.  What was done on Saturday was simply confirming the results of primaries.  

Now, most of the conventions that happened yesterday were set in state -- stages a month or two ago and before frankly I was involved.  That's not the point, though.  The point is, Cruz doesn't care about what happens in the elections.  What Cruz is doing is he's playing fast with the rules, doesn't care about the local concerns and what you saw in Maine yesterday, for example, Maine there was a consensus, the governor put together of all the campaigns, of all the campaigns, and everybody was going to be represented on the ticket consistent with the results that the voters chose in the Maine -- in the Maine primary.  

Cruz, at the last minute, broke the deal and effectively didn't care about the local officials, didn't care about the results afterwards and, yes, he steam rolled it.  

That's not the Trump approach.  We are running the campaign to win the votes on the first ballot and we're going to and we're going to win on the first ballot.  

So, all of this party disruption that Cruz is causing, at the end of the day is only going to hurt the party, it's not going to hurt Trump because he's still going to be the votes cast on the first ballot and there's going to be no second ballot, which will be very clear before the end -- when the process is over on June 7th.  

WALLACE:  You and I have known each other since the Reagan White House, but after that you went into lobbying and I think it's fair to say that some of your clients are at the very least controversial, Filipino dictator Marcos, Angolan guerrilla leader Jonas Savimbi, ousted Ukrainian president and Putin ally, Victor Yanukovych -- which led to someone calling your firm "the torturer’s lobby".  

How do you plead?  

MANAFORT:  You've got to dissect it.  Back when I was representing Savimbi, that was the administration's chosen group in Washington.  I was working with the administration against at that time a Soviet dictatorship that was put up in Angola.  In the Philippines I was tasked to go out there and help bring the transition of Marcos to an end.  So --

WALLACE:  But Yanukovych we're talking about the 2000s --  

MANAFORT:  If you look at the results --  

WALLACE:  He was never an American ally.  

MANAFORT:  If you look at the results of Yanukovych administration, the agreement that was signed that got -- brought Ukraine into Europe, I was the person who worked with the Europeans to negotiate it because Yanukovych was committed and it's a long history lesson which we can have a cup of coffee over sometime, but the role that I played in that administration was to help bring Ukraine into Europe and we did.  We succeeded.  

WALLACE:  Ted Cruz isn't persuaded by this.  He started going after you and the team that you have assembled.  Here he is yesterday.  


CRUZ:  The entire campaign apparatus now is a Washington lobbyer apparatus.  So, if you're happy with the corruption of Washington, with the bipartisan corruption of big government, then Donald Trump's campaign is for you.  


WALLACE:  Your response.  

MANAFORT:  The people he was talking about haven't for the most part lobbied for 10 to 20 years.  Did they once lobby?  Yes.  Have they been lobbying for the last 10 or 15 years?  Just about all of them, the answer is no.  They have been in private sectors outside of Washington.  

WALLACE:  But his larger point is you are an insider, the people you're bringing in are insider, and so Trump's talk of anti-establishment and insider is no longer the case, and he is the real outsider.

MANAFORT:  First of all, I’m not running for president.  Donald Trump is running for president -- and Donald Trump is clearly an outsider and Donald Trump has clearly established his credentials with the American people by virtue of what he said he's going to do in changing the rigged economy, the rigged banking system, the political system.  

Again, this is Cruz, because he's got no issues left, trying to confuse a very simple fact that he's about to be mathematically eliminated next week.

And look at what he's trying to do in his candidacy.  He's trying to say the process doesn't matter.  He's trying to say voting doesn't matter.  He's trying to say that all that matters is to destroy the party and see who can pick up the pieces on a second, third or fourth ballot.  

Good news for him or for the party, we’re not going to let that happen.  We’re going to win it on the first ballot.  It will be clear on June 7th.  

What we're trying to do right now is work with the Mitch McConnells who we didn't depose in Kentucky even though he won the election and we worked with him to put a unity slate together.  We're trying to bring the party together.  That’s what --

WALLACE:  Wait, because I think this is interesting.  You're saying that you're working with the Senate majority leader, who to a lot of the grassroots is a symbol of the problem?  

MANAFORT:  We're working with party officials and that was an example on Saturday where we could have -- we won the state.  We could have gone in there and tried to be disruptive as Cruz does in these states.  

We didn't want to do that because we know we are going to be the nominee.  We have to work with these people.  What I was tasked to do this past week, including going to the RNC meeting, was to begin to have people who Trump hasn't been exposed to begin to understand that the campaign cares about them and we will run some traditional elections.  

WALLACE:  Trump raised some new questions this week about his conservatism when he opposed North Carolina's new law which was -- will set restrictions on which bathrooms transgender people can use.  Here is what your candidate had to say.  


TRUMP:  First of all, I think that would be discriminatory in a certain way.  It would be unbelievably expensive for businesses and for the country.  Leave it the way it is.  


WALLACE:   But that night Trump reversed himself and said, well, no, it's actually a state's rights issue.  

Simple question, Paul, what does Trump think about the North Carolina law?  

MANAFORT:  Trump thinks what he said, that it's a state's rights issue.  

WALLACE:  But he also said he thinks leave it alone.  Leave it the way it is.

MANAFORT:  But it's not a reversal.  I mean, he told you what his position is and you just had him on air, he said it's a state's right issue.  Period, end of sentence.  

WALLACE:  Wait.  Wait.  Wait.  But 12 hours before or eight hours before, he said leave it the way it is and that there doesn't need to be any change.  It's a problem in search of a solution.  

MANAFORT:  Which it is.  

WALLACE:  Let me rephrase, it's a solution in search of a problem, that there's not really a problem there.  

MANAFORT:  What he said, he was asked a question of his personal opinion in the afternoon and then he was asked, "How do you handle the issue?"  And he answered that in the evening.  

WALLACE:  His personal opinion stands?  

MANAFORT:  What stands is what he said when he was asked the specific question of what should happen to this issue and he said it's a state's rights issue, it should be handled by the states.  

WALLACE:  Finally, your new team has been talking about the fact that Trump is going to make a foreign policy speech this week here in Washington using teleprompters.  He is going to make more serious policy speeches using teleprompters.  

Are you trying to drag him kicking and screaming to be more presidential?  

MANAFORT:  First, it's not a new team.  It's an expanded team.  And, secondly, the point is we are at a period in the campaign where these things are relevant. Campaigns are a process and Trump recognizes it.  

And Trump's attitude has been first, that he had to establish the credibility of his candidacy, which he did.  Then, he needed to win primaries, which he did.  Then, he had to emerge as the presumptive nominee, which he did.  

And now, as people are looking at him as the Republican nominee and potentially the next president of the United States, there's another stage in the process and that's what this is.  

WALLACE:  And is that part of being more presidential?  

MANAFORT:  It's certainly nothing that's contrary to being presidential.  

WALLACE:  Paul, thank you.  

MANAFORT:  All right, Chris.  

WALLACE:  Thanks for your time.  We've been doing this for 36 years, 30 whatever years.  

MANAFORT:  A long time.  


WALLACE:  And we'll track how the returns come in Tuesday night.  Thank you.  

Up next, we'll bring in our Sunday group to discuss the changing strategy of the Trump campaign, plus what would you like to ask the panel about a possible Trump makeover?  

Just go to Facebook or Twitter @FoxNewsSunday, and we may use your question on the air.  



TRUMP:  At some point, I’m going to be so presidential that you people will be so bored.  


WALLACE:  Republican front runner Donald Trump having fun with all the talk about his need to project a more serious image.  And it's time now for our Sunday group.  

Gerald Seib of The Wall Street Journal, Susan Page from USA Today, Ben Domenech, co-founder of the web magazine The Federalist, and Fox News political analyst Juan Williams, author of the new book "We the People".

Well, we asked you for questions for the panel and we got a bunch on this question of a possible Trump makeover.  

Madeleine Mullanix sent us on Facebook, "He, Trump, might act more presidential, but that's what it would be, an act."  And Laurie tweeted this, "Will the real Donald Trump please stand up and face the people?!"  

Gerry, how do you answer them?  Should Trump try to change his image?  Can he change his image?  

GERALD F SEIB, THE WALL STREET JOURNAL:  Well, you know, it's not just the handlers who are saying it.  We had an interview with Donald Trump this week and he said, you know, I know I need to be more disciplined, I know I need to adjust, the campaign is adjusting.  I’m going to because -- and this was his reasoning -- I’m not going to blow it.  

But he also said, you know, when I show up at a big rally with 20,000, they're basically looking for me to entertain them and I’m not going to let them down.  

So, he’s having -- you know, every politician tries to have it both ways, you know that, Chris.  This is him trying to have it both ways.  I’m going to be the entertainer at a rally but I’m going to be presidential when I’m not at a rally, but I’m going to be presidential when I’m not at a rally.  

The problem is those two things collide at some point.  

WALLACE:  Well, that’s what I was going to say.  Can you do that?  Can you be --

SEIB:  We're having this conversation, it's hard to do that, right?  

WALLACE:  Yes.  Speaking of which, there was a very interesting editorial in "The Washington Post" today, and let me put it up here, you are not going to be able to read it but I will read you the head line, "Remember the real Donald Trump, his pivot to a presidential demeanor cannot erase history."

And as you can see it goes on at great length and it talks about remember Donald Trump's comments about illegal immigrants being rapists and criminals, remember Donald Trump's comments that John McCain is not a real war hero, and it says no matter what his handlers try to make him don't forget that.  

Susan, which raises the question, is a makeover of Donald Trump's persona, his image, possible in this 24/7 world of news and social media?  

SUSAN PAGE, USA TODAY:  Well, I think two questions.  One, no one else will let him forget it, right?  Hillary Clinton yesterday put out a video with some of Trump's more provocative statements.  Certainly, she is the nominee, we’re going to hear a lot about it.  

Also, I have questions about whether Donald Trump can remake himself.  We saw him Tuesday night look more presidential, talking about Senator Cruz.  But yesterday at his rally, he was back to Lyin' Ted, as you pointed out in your interview.  And that is -- I think -- I think we know who the real Donald Trump is and I think he is irrepressible.  

But, you know, I thought the most interesting line in that Post editorial which was meant to be very critical of Trump was a quote they included from Reince Priebus, the RNC chairman, that said, "Winning is the antidote to a lot of things."  I think that's also true when it comes to Donald Trump.  

WALLACE:  But I guess the question becomes, because you look at his numbers, his unfavorables and they're sky high, unprecedentedly high for a major party nominee.  Can you win if he stays in this Donald Trump?  I mean, there are a couple of questions, one, can he win as this Donald Trump, two, can he become another Donald Trump and will the new Donald Trump make people forget?  

PAGE: So, he can't be elected with these unfavorables except he's running against somebody we think who has unfavorables that are only a little lower.  Both him -- both Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton had unfavorable ratings over 50 percent.  

We’ve never had that situation with a candidate in either party.  This year we will have it we think in both parties.  So, in that way it makes the train a little -- it makes you a little less confident in saying, oh, there's absolutely no way he could be elected.  

WALLACE:  As I discussed with Paul Manafort, Trump's comments about North Carolina's new law restricting bathrooms in the case of transgender people created quite a backlash and Ted Cruz saw an opening.  Here he is.  


SEN. TED CRUZ, R-TEXAS, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  He thought that men should be able to go into the girls’ bathroom if they want to.  Have we gone stark raving nuts?  


WALLACE:  Ben, is this issue which obviously Cruz sees as an opening, is this a good issue for Republicans in the primaries?  And is it a good issue for Republicans in the general election?  

BEN DOMENECH, THE FEDERALIST:  Well, first off, within the context of the discussion about bathrooms, keep in mind there are fewer transgender people in America, according to the best estimates than we have than there are registered sex offenders.  In this case, I think that's actually the thing that people are concerned about.  They're less concerned about transgender people coming into bathrooms than they are men using this as a way to get into locker rooms with women and to exploit that opportunity to participate in some kind of criminal act.  

I think that's something that is a concern among a lot of Americans.  The polls generally show that favoring sort of the -- these types of policies has actually increased since this debate has started.

On the side of Trump, I think this is part of the piece of what we've seen in the past, a month ago after he ran the table in Florida, in Missouri, and in Illinois and in North Carolina, there was this -- all this talk about he is going to shift to being more presidential and instead, he embarked on a series of gaffs and own goals that undermined his own ability to coalesce and to unite the party.  

What we've seen over the past week since he won in New York is again, you know, reverting to these personalized attacks, calling for weakening the pro-life plank of the party, getting to the left of Hillary Clinton on transgender issues, you know, coming out in favor of raising taxes, insulting his opponents' names, and coming out again just the other day and suggesting in spite of all of the legal decisions that have gone against it, that Ted Cruz is not going to be a qualified candidate for the presidency because he is not a naturalized citizen.  

This is not someone who is interested in uniting the party.  If it's so easy to be presidential, why doesn't he try it for five minutes?  


WALLACE:  That was --


WALLACE:  I want to go back, though, to this issue of the bathrooms and whether it's a good issue because we actually decided to try to find out whether it is a public safety issue, whether it is a problem with transgender people misusing bathrooms to prey on others.  

Here is what the fact checking group PolitiFact found.  "We," that’s the PolitiFact, "haven't found any instance of criminals convicted of using transgender protections as cover in the United States.  Neither have any left wing groups or right wing groups."  

Which brings me to Charles Krauthammer's comment which I was quoting to Paul Manafort earlier, which is this seems to be a solution in search of a problem.  

JUAN WILLIAMS, FOX NEWS POLITICAL ANALYST:  I think that's right because, in fact, one of the police chiefs in North Carolina said that he had been in the police force 40 years, he had never dealt with this issue.  So he said, you know, as if people are creating a problem in search of a solution.  

I think what we come back to is a wedge issue here.  A wedge issue that in terms of gay rights, gay marriage as you know has been controversial but that wedge issue it worked in '04.  The Bush campaign got gay marriage on the ballot, helped President Bush gained reelection in '04.  

This time, that issue in terms of the polling just doesn't have the same power, the same strength on the electorate.  And when you look at the reality of it people say, well, gosh, you know, at home, I use the same bathroom as my wife, in college, they have same-sex bathrooms.  This does not seem to be a crying issue.

But even in terms of the evangelical community, the power of the true conservatives -- which is what I think Cruz is trying to do by countering Trump on this issue -- it just doesn't seem to carry the weight.  It does not seem to have the power, Chris.  

WALLACE:  I want to shift the question a little bit, Gerry.  After Trump's sweeping victory in New York getting over 60 percent of the vote, over 90 percent of the delegates, that was one case where the rules worked in his favor, did the ground shift inside the Republican establishment?  Is there a growing acceptance or at least growing resignation to the fact that Trump is going to be the nominee?  

SEIB:  I think so.  I think you could almost feel it Tuesday night as the results came in from New York.  

There was -- it went from, well, maybe it's not going to work out this way to, oh, my gosh, it really is going to work out this way.  You know, the math didn't tell you that, the perception in the party told you that there had been a change.  

I think you saw it at the RNC meeting in Florida this week.  Instead of fighting the trend there was more, can we come to terms with this Trump trend and I think that's a significant difference.  

I will tell you why it matters, Chris.  It matters because if you create an era of inevitability and that's I think what the Trump campaign is trying to do here, that's what you saw Paul Manafort doing, then it becomes easier to get unbound delegates, that gets you over 1,237 to come your way, because they're saying it's inevitable we will go with the flow.  If you create that perception, you create then the reality -- at least you can.  

WALLACE:   Let me quickly say to sum this up, that Manafort was talking about getting to 1,237 by the end of the primaries on June 7th, but in fact there are 41 days, almost six weeks between the end of California and the primaries in Cleveland.  That's a long time to try to get some of those unpledged delegates.  

All right.  We're going to take a break here, but we will see you all a little later.  

Up next, Hillary Clinton tries to pivot to the general election, but Bernie Sanders keeps up his attacks against Clinton.  We’ll talk with Democratic Party Chair Debbie Wasserman Schultz about the state of the race.  

Plus, what do you think?  Is the prolonged campaign on the Democratic side hurting that party?  Let me mow on Facebook or Twitter @FoxNewsSunday and use the #fns.  


WALLACE:  Coming up, Democratic Party Chair Debbie Wasserman Schultz on the fighting in the Republican Party.  And what it means for the general election.  


REP. DEBBIE WASSERMAN SCHULTZ, D-FLA., DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL COMMITTEE CHAIR:  The Republicans are still a civil war.  They’re not talking about substantive issues.  They're mired in chaos.  


WALLACE:  We’ll ask the congresswoman about the chaos in her party, next.


WALLACE: A look outside the beltway at Philadelphia, site of this year's Democratic Convention.

Frontrunner Hillary Clinton took a big step this week toward locking up the Democratic nomination with her sweeping victory in the New York primary. But Bernie Sanders shows no signs of conceding and continues to run hard against her. Joining us now from Florida, the chair of the Democratic National Committee, Debbie Wasserman Schultz.

Congresswoman, given that Hillary Clinton seems to have a pretty clear path to the nomination now, does Bernie sanders need to tone down his attacks and start to bring the party together?

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Well, I actually have been very proud throughout this campaign of both of our candidates. You've seen in every single one of our debates including -- and then also in discussions on the campaign trail, the substance and the commitment that each of our candidates has to laying out for the American people their vision for how they’d move our country forward. And so I've been quite proud of both of them, particularly when compared to the circus that has unfolded on the other side, but there’s --

WALLACE:  But if you could answer my -- if you could answer my question, does Bernie Sanders need to tone down his attacks?


WALLACE:  OK, I was waiting.

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: I -- I'm about to. I needed to preface for a moment because they've done a great job at being substantive comparatively. But what I have cautioned over the last several weeks is that we need to make sure that the rhetoric that each candidate uses is such that it doesn't make it more difficult for us to reunify. And I think that, you know, it's expected in a campaign like this one, as we get towards the narrow end of the funnel, we’ve only got 19 primaries left, that it's going to get a little more -- more intense, but we need to make sure that we focus on the -- the end game, which is to obviously make sure that we can elect our nominee president of the United States, which I'm confident that we will.

WALLACE: But Sanders continues, even after New York, to go after Clinton. Here’s just some of what he said during a town hall this week in Pennsylvania.


SANDERS: One of the differences between Secretary Clinton and myself is, I have opposed -- I have opposed every one of these disastrous trade agreements.

One of the major differences is precisely how we raise money for our campaigns.


WALLACE:  Question, is that helpful to electing a Democratic president?

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Chris, when you look at what happened this week on the other side of the aisle with basically Toto pulling back the curtain on the wizard and revealing that Donald Trump isn't on the level, has never been on the level, they basically have a faker running for president of the United States and, you know, has -- has been the most extreme misogynistic, bigoted candidate that the Republican Party certainly has ever put forward and probably any candidate has ever run -- who’s ever run before. You know, pointed differences between our candidates that, at the end of this primary, you know, it's -- it pales in comparison to what's played out on the other side of the aisle. I mean, you have each of these candidates on the other side calling each other liars and --

WALLACE:  But -- but, you know, OK, forgive me, and I understand it's your job -- I understand it's your job to make the case against the Republicans, but the fact is that Bernie Sanders talks repeatedly about Hillary Clinton not standing up to Wall Street, in fact, taking hundreds of thousands of dollars for speeches, whose transcripts she won't release, not standing up to the big oil and gas industry, not standing up to drug companies. I’m, you know, deal with your own party, if you will, for a moment. Is that helpful, those kinds of critiques, to electing a Democratic president?

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: I'm glad to deal with my own party, but it has to be done in -- in -- in (INAUDIBLE) -- in context with the way the election’s playing out.

WALLACE:  But, OK. I got -- I got it. You think the other guys are worse. But let's deal with your party.

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: So much. But if you look at the way our -- our campaign has played out, both of our candidates are focused on achieving the same goal. If either one of them were president, they would continue to build on the 73 straight months of job growth we’ve had in the private sector. You know, our president -- like President Obama, who has pulled us out of the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression. And whether it's Hillary Clinton or Bernie Sanders, they have both talked about helping people be able to reach the middle class by making sure that we continue to have policies and build on those policies, that people can have a good job and be -- reduce income inequality.

WALLACE:  But -- but -- but -- but how about the fact -- I mean I -- but if I may, how about the fact that Bernie Sanders says that Hillary Clinton is, in effect, a corporate sellout? I mean you make it sounds like there hasn't been much of a critique of Hillary Clinton and there has been.

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Again, I -- I think because we have two candidates who have focused on their desire to achieve the same goals and build on the legacy of success that we’ve had, as opposed to dragging us backwards to, you know, a -- the policies of a presidency that plunged us into an economic crisis, that, you know, differences of opinion, even sharp ones, are -- are, you know -- pale in comparison compared to what's played out on the other side. And so we had a much more divisive primary in 2008, Chris, and, you know, arguably and not only did we reunify successfully, we elected Barack Obama. He sent -- he selected Hillary Clinton to be his secretary of state. I was a Hillary Clinton supporter to the last day in 2008, if you recall, and he asked me to be his DNC chair. So I'm very confident that regardless of the intensity of what's played out here at the -- at the last stages of the campaign, which every one of our candidates ultimately is our nominee, we are going to be unified and that is certainly not the case that's playing out on the -- on the other side where they're headed for chaos at their convention.

WALLACE:  You -- you talk about unity, but there was a lot of analysis in the media this week that Sanders' attacks have been driving up -- helping to drive up Clinton's negatives. And I want to put up some numbers. In a Wall Street Journal poll, the rating on whether people have a positive or negative view of Clinton is at minus 24. Among all men she’s at minus 40. Among all whites, she’s at minus 39. Now, look, I know, so you don't have to say it, I know that Trump's numbers are even worse, but he may not be the nominee. Her numbers, her numbers, deal with them, if you will, please, are historically low.

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Well, Republicans are certainly -- you know, some Republicans are certainly hoping beyond hope that Donald Trump is not their nominee, and with good reason. But if you look at the exit polls that -- that were coming out of New York and our voters were asked whether they were enthusiastic and thought our primary had energized them, you know, seven out of ten of those voters asked said, yes, they thought this primary energized them about supporting each one of our -- either one of our candidates. Less than 40 percent said the same about the Republicans. But the fact -- absurd actually --

WALLACE:  But let me -- let -- can I just -- can I just --

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Actually -- so --

WALLACE:  Can I just pick -- excuse me for a second.


WALLACE:  I just want to pick up on that because you talk -- you -- you talk about the --

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: But those are the -- those are the facts that really matter.

WALLACE:  Well, good. Well, I want to talk about the enthusiasm of Clinton's support because so far this year 23.1 million people have voted in Republican primaries, 18.5 million have voted in Democratic primaries. So why shouldn't we believe that, in fact, when it comes to enthusiasm, Republicans have a big advantage. They have almost a $5 million edge and -- 5 million voter edge in turnout.

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Hillary Clinton has had 10.6 million people vote for her at this point. Bernie Sanders, 7.1 million people. Bernie -- Hillary Clinton has more votes than Donald Trump and Sanders has more votes than Kasich and Cruz. And so --

WALLACE:  I understand, but there were 17 candidates on one side.

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Exact -- exactly the point, is there were 17 candidates on one side generating a whole bunch of turnout. In many places around the country, we came close or had the equivalent of the turnout. But when you look today, where we are today in this campaign, in terms of the energy and enthusiasm and interest in supporting our eventual nominee, there is far more support and energy on our side than there is on the Republican side. The same was true coming out of Wisconsin. So this is a pattern in different kinds of states and so -- especially because we are continuing to head towards a unified effort when our primary is over --

WALLACE:  Right.

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: To make sure that we can get behind our eventual nominee. And the Republicans are clearly headed for a -- a brokered convention that is going to descend into chaos. And -- and there's almost no one that you could ask that -- that -- that doesn't acknowledge that.

WALLACE:  I -- I want to talk about one last subject with you congresswoman. You have dismissed the idea that Hillary Clinton could face any legal troubles over her private e-mail server as, quote, "ludicrous." How do you know that?

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: I -- I'm simply confident that as the investigation continues that Hillary Clinton has made it clear and there are scores of individuals who are associated with the federal government that have indicated that it's clear that she conducted herself completely legally, that she was able to use private e-mail just like previous Republican and Democratic secretaries of state and I think that --

WALLACE:  Well --

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: At the end of the day, this is going to amount to nothing more than an investigation when they take a close look. I think she's going to be fine.

WALLACE:  Well -- well -- well, I -- the -- the reason I ask is, the FBI has dozens of agents who have been investigating this issue for months. And just this week, FBI Director James Comey said that this could go on well past -- or at least past the Democratic convention in July. You know there's got to be something there that they’re investigating. Are you saying it's all a waste of time?

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: I'm -- I’m not commenting on it one way or the other, other than to say that it is ludicrous to keep raising --

WALLACE:  Well -- well, wait a minute. You have. You said it's ludicrous.

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Yes, and I'm going to say it again, it's ludicrous to keep raising the -- the question of whether this plays out to an end -- an unfortunate end. She’s -- Hillary Clinton has released 55,000 pages of e-mails. She -- the -- it -- has provided the most transparency of -- of probably any previous presidential candidate in terms of the -- the conversations that she’s had as secretary of state, as a public official. It is completely available for perusal by the press and she was doing something and using private e-mail in the same way that previous secretaries of state have -- have done and that’s according to the policy that she was allowed to.

WALLACE:  But, well, you -- well, well, well, you know that's not true. I mean Hillary -- nobody says that's true. Nobody --

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Other than the privates --

WALLACE:  No -- no -- nobody --

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Other than the private server, right, with the exception --

WALLACE:  Well, other than the private server is a big deal and nobody had 30,000 work e-mails on their private server or private e-mail, period. So, I mean, the comparisons to Colin Powell are -- I mean that's just not true, congresswoman.

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: The compare -- you know, it certainly is true because Colin Powell, Condoleezza Rice, John Kerry all used private e-mail to communicate with their staff. And Hillary Clinton --

WALLACE:  Yes, and maybe -- maybe a dozen, not 30,000.

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: I -- I -- I'm not counting, but over the course of her -- of her term she used private e-mail and was allowed to use private e-mail. That's not in dispute. And she’s released 55,000 pages of e-mails. At the end of the day, this is a distraction because the American people are going to decide who they vote for, for president, based on who they believe is going to continue to move us forward and help everybody who wants to succeed have a fair shot to do so. And what they're not going to vote on is distractions like this one and they're certainly not going to choose any one of the Republican candidates who think that we should continue and go back to policies that focus on the wealthiest most fortunate Americans --

WALLACE:  Right.

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: That -- that are extreme like Donald Trump suggesting that we're going to deport 11 million people --

WALLACE:  All right, congresswoman --

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Or that we're going to ban an entire religion from coming into the country.

WALLACE:  Congresswoman, we’re --

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: That's the choice.

WALLACE:  All right. I -- I thank you very much. We'll have you back --

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: You’re welcome.

WALLACE:  And you can -- you can continue the conversation. Thanks so much for sharing part of your weekend with us.

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Look forward to it. My pleasure. Thanks.

WALLACE:  When we come back, we’ll ask our Sunday group, what does Bernie Sanders want to try to get his supporters to back Hillary Clinton.



HILLARY CLINTON, D-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It’s humbling that you’d trust me with the awesome responsibilities that await our next president.

SANDERS: It's not unrealistic. It's a hard path. I admit that. But I think given the fact that we have now won some 17 states, it is a possibility.


WALLACE:  In the wake of Hillary Clinton's big victory in New York this week, two very different reactions from the Democratic candidates about the path forward. And we're back now with the panel.

Well, Susan, back in 2008, Hillary Clinton kept running right through all the primaries, right through California into June. But at a certain point it seems to me, right about now she began to back off the attacks on Obama and stick more to just the affirmative case for herself. That's not what you're seeing with Bernie Sanders. He's still going after her.

PAGE: Yes. Now, we'll see what happens after Tuesday night. You know, he looks like he's headed to a big defeat in Pennsylvania. That's one of these Atlantic -- Mid-Atlantic states that they had hoped they would win. Gerry has a new poll out this morning that puts him down 15 points in Pennsylvania. And the Clinton folks have no expectation he’s going to get out of this race. They do hope he tempers his rhetoric because they make the point he is doing damage by hitting her where it hurts, by criticizing her judgment, her honesty, her trustworthiness. When he criticized her as not being prepared, I don't think that worried them because that is not a vulnerability she has, but he is hitting her on some places where it could hurt her in November.

WALLACE:  Which brings us to I guess what -- one of the big questions in politics, Gerry, and that is, what does Bernie Sanders want? If he's not going to be the nominee, what is he going to demand from the Clinton team to go nicely and, in fact, to try to get his millions of supporters to back her? And he began to answer that week, suggesting that what he would like to see in the platform are planks that say the Democratic Party is going to take on Wall Street and the drug companies and oil and gas. What do you think’s the likelihood of that?

SEIB: Well, the first person who has to decide the answer to that question is Bernie Sanders himself I'd say. The -- the -- the vibes out of the Sanders camp were mixed after Tuesday night after the New York primary. There were some people who say, we fight on to the convention. It's still possible to win. There was a little of that in that clip from Senator Sanders you just saw. But there’s -- there were others who said, you know, we’ll take stock after this week, you know, the next set of primaries on Tuesday.

I think if he wants to affect the way the party is going, and I suspect that’s what will happen, he does have to scale back the attacks because by attacking Hillary Clinton you're angering the same people in the party who will determine what the direction of the party is. It's counterproductive. I suspect we’ll see a verdict on that from the Sanders camp after this Tuesday.

WALLACE:  But -- but I -- I guess I get to the -- to the platform. It -- what do you think is the likelihood that if he says the price for my coming on board and for my really working to get support for Hillary is that you've got to have a more Sanders-like platform, is the Clinton campaign going to go along with that?

SEIB: Not -- not all the way. But I mean there’s already a more Sanders-like platform. Let’s face it, he has pushed the party to the left. He’s pushed Hillary Clinton to the left on things such as trade in particular, maybe the minimum wage. Look, there will be a negotiation underway and I don't think the -- the Clinton people will have more leverage than Bernie Sanders shortly, so they’re not going to start caving in, in giant ways that will make it difficult for her to move back to the middle in a general election campaign.

WALLACE:  Juan, I discussed Clinton's not very impressive poll numbers with Congresswoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz. And as I pointed out to her -- her and I’ll point out again, Trump's unfavorability is even higher. But the fact is, she's going to go into this general election, if she's the nominee, as a vulnerable candidate.

WILLIAMS: Yes, she has an Achilles' heel and it's pretty clear in the polling it's trustworthy -- trustworthiness, honesty. This business about the e-mail server has been a constant, constant thorn in her side and used by her critics, especially on the Republican side, who are, you know, going out there wishing there's going to be an indictment, that she's going to be in jail, all the rest. That's a consistent issue and it's for a reason that we see in the poll numbers. So the question is, how does this play with Democrats? Is it -- it is hurting her with Democrats? Democrats don't even pay attention to the e-mail server story. The foundation story and the question about quid pro quo --

WALLACE:  The Clinton Foundation.

WILLIAMS: The Clinton Foundation story and the question about whether there was a quid pro quo while she was secretary of state, I think that also lingers and suggests that, you know what, she has sharp elbows. A lot of people think maybe, you know, she plays to the edge. Does that hurt her in the general election? I think that it will be exploited by her opponents, by the Republicans. I don't think there's any question.

WALLACE:  But what about the argument -- and we -- which is another part of the critique by Sanders, that she's too cozy with Wall Street, she’s too cozy with the establishment --

WILLIAMS: Well, I -- yes, that’s not --

WALLACE:  In the year of the outsider?

WILLIAMS: Well, that comes back to what you were asking Gerry. What does -- what can he realistically expect to get in a trade off with Hillary Clinton and the Democrats?

WALLACE:  But (INAUDIBLE), more in terms of Hillary Clinton and -- and is that going to be a venerability for her in the general?

WILLIAMS: Well, it’s -- I don’t -- hopefully for her, from her perspective, it does not need to be a vulnerability if Bernie Sanders can get what -- some of what he wants and then say, you know what, her -- his voters, a third of whom say they will not vote for Hillary Clinton at this moment, begin to shift, one, of course, if Trump or Cruz is the nominee, they have somebody that they say generates fair among Democrats and that will spur voter turnout.

But I think, to get back to your point, Gerry, if on the minimum wage, on big banks and Wall Street, that the Democratic Party begins adapting some of Bernie Sanders' language, I think that Bernie Sanders' younger voters, more liberal, even socialist voters come into the Hillary camp.

WALLACE:  Yes, but there’s another side of that, which I want to bring up with you, Ben, which is that Sanders has already pushed Clinton further to the left on a number of these issues, especially illegal immigration. Is that going to be -- you know, we talk about Trump trying to pivot in the general. Is that going to be tougher, make it tougher for Hillary to pivot in the general?

DOMENECH: I think it -- I think it is going to make it tougher. We saw this week reporting from "The Daily Beast" that a pro-Clinton super PAC had paid more than a million dollars to have supporters of her online push back against Bernie supporters on Facebook and Twitter and Instagram and places like that. It's -- it’s a sign of how hard it is to get people to support Hillary Clinton among the younger set. And I think that that's the real challenge for her in this environment, which is that younger voters who were key in electing President Obama are not going to be convinced that she's someone who they really need to support, and that's going to have to force her in a position where she's going to have to continue to appeal to their more liberal positions on a lot of these issues as she goes into a general, as opposed to pivoting back to the center. That's going to be a real challenge for her and it's one of the reasons why I think Sanders supporters, the 30 or so percent that Juan was referring to, are going to prove a tougher nut to crack for Hillary in a general election (ph).

WALLACE:  And, you know, we talk about the chaos and all the disarray in the Republican Party. How -- how venerable a candidate do you think she is going into the general?

DOMENECH: She has the second highest negatives of any candidate that you could conceive (ph) of the modern --

WALLACE:  But then she’s running against (INAUDIBLE) higher.

DOMENECH: But she’s -- she’s -- she is helped by the fact that she's going to probably be running against the person with the highest negatives in the modern era thanks to the people of New York for their prioritization of electability on both sides of the political fray when it comes to that issue.

PAGE: You know, let me just say, I don't think her problem’s going to be that she’s got pushed to the left on policy. I think her problem is that she doesn't excite the kind of enthusiasm that both Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump do. And that's -- when you look at this, I mean the platform, so she can make concessions on the platform. Who’s going to care, you know, 48 hours after the platform has been adopted. But she needs to figure out a way to get voters to think, this is somebody I really want to be president. Or -- because there's only so much -- I mean the Sanders is going to -- could be helpful of course is doing that, but this is really the task for the candidate.

DOMENECH: But she's a known quantity, which is the challenge.

PAGE: Yes.

DOMENECH: After this many years, how many -- how can you shift away from that?

WALLACE:  I -- I, excuse me, I’ve got less than a minute left. Juan, in the time we have left, tell people why they should buy your new book.

WILLIAMS: Buy it? Well, I think they should read it.

WALLACE:  Well, buy it and read it.

WILLIAMS: Well, this book is about change and it's about the change makers. You know, if the founding fathers came back to life and walked down the street with Chris Wallace in Washington, D.C., I think they would be dizzy at the rate of change. This week we saw Harriet Tubman, a black woman, is going to be put on the $20 bill. King, Marian Anderson, Eleanor Roosevelt on the back of the $5. That rate of change suggests America is, in the 2016 cycle, undergoing anxiety, discomfort, economic change, demographic change, political change. This book’s about the people who made that change and the America we live in, in the -- in 2016. And I think it’s a great eye-opener behind the headlines of the campaign.

WALLACE:  Well, I wish I had a copy of it right here. Imagine that I did. "We the People," buy it.

Thank you, panel. See you next Sunday.

WILLIAMS: Thank you.

WALLACE:  Up next, we visit the magnificent home of those two baby bald eaglets.


WALLACE:  It's one of Washington's more hidden treasures, just two miles from the Capitol building. But recently it got a burst of publicity. Here is our "Power Player of the Week."


DR. RICHARD OLSEN, NATIONAL ARBORETUM DIRECTOR: I think people are fascinated by this because this is -- this is real live action nature right in front of their lives.

WALLACE (voice-over): Richard Olsen is talking about the birth of two baby bald eaglets this March. Events that attracted 22 million hits on Eagle Cam. Olsen is director of the National Arboretum in Washington and he took us to watch the nest from a distance where the eagle family was still living.

OLSEN: What you’re seeing moving is actually the mom or the dad, Mr. President or First Lady.

WALLACE:  The interest in the baby eaglets has brought more attention to the rest of the arboretum, a huge collection of plants, trees and shrubs in the heart of the city.

WALLACE (on camera): So is this a garden or a 400 acre laboratory?

OLSEN: It's both. It's not mutually exclusive. Science occurs her every day.

WALLACE (voice-over): For example, these beautiful azaleas that used to grow only in the south until scientists at the arboretum developed hybrids that can thrive further north.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We behave as the bumblebee and move pollen from the male to the female to evaluate the seed rings to find the best one that can -- combines the traits we’re looking for.

WALLACE:  There’s a collection of 650,000 dried pressed plants to keep a permanent record.

OLSEN: If there's any confusion as to what scientifically a rosemary is, we can go back to the original specimens and say, this is how the plant was described.

WALLACE:  And there's a museum of bonsai, miniature trees Japan gave to this country in 1976 to mark our bicentennial, including this peace tree that's had quite a life since 1625.

OLSEN: This trees did, in fact, survived Hiroshima, so just a mile or more away from the epicenter, and this tree survived the blast.

WALLACE (on camera): So this tree, 400 years and one nuclear blast.

OLSEN: Yes, it's pretty amazing to think about.

This is my office and I obviously get to get out when I want.

WALLACE (voice-over): Richard Olsen grew up loving the outdoors.

OLSEN: I was -- always seemed to be the kid that was out helping the parents in -- in the tomato garden, vegetable garden. I remember planting rhubarb in Wisconsin and planting -- planting red tip petunias in North Carolina.

WALLACE:  There was a time when he considered a different line of work.

OLSEN: I thought, well, wouldn't it be good (ph) to be an analyst and -- for the CIA. I read too many spy books and movies.

WALLACE:  But by the end of college, he traded spy craft for seeds and he’s never looked back.

OLSEN: Our mission at the arboretum is to enhance the American landscape. So when you walk into work and see these trees and you think, my job is to get people to love trees as much as I love trees, that’s a -- that's pretty noble.


WALLACE:  By the way, the names of those two baby bald eaglets will be announced on Tuesday.

Now, this program note. Watch a live two hour voter event, "America's Town Hall," tonight at 8:00 p.m. eastern on Fox News Channel. Bill Hemmer and Martha MacCallum host from Philadelphia ahead of Tuesday's Pennsylvania primary.

And that's it for today. Have a great week and we'll see you next "Fox News Sunday."


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