Republican frontrunner, voters fret over delegate process

Controversy over selection of Colorado's delegates


This is a rush transcript from "The Five," April 11, 2016. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

ERIC BOLLING, CO-HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Eric Boling along
with Kimberly Guilfoyle, Juan Williams, Melissa Francis and Jesse Watters,
it's 5 o'clock in New York City and this right here is "The Five."


BOLLING: Well, the word of the day maybe the word of the month in GOP
politics is process. Many voters are worried about the GOP process of
nominating their candidate, allegations of delegates stealing fierce of
contested convention shenanigans and more. Over the weekend, the Colorado
state GOP convention took place and Ted Cruz scored a total victory, taking
all 34 delegates, that without a single vote cast by a Coloradan -- the
process, folks. Anyway, Colorado shrinks the lead, the front-runner Donald
Trump has over Ted Cruz to less than 200 delegates. But with a week and a
day until the delegate reach New York state primary, that gap is said to
widen further as Trump holds a more than 30 point lead. Yesterday, however,
Trump was pulling no punches on the process.


on the republican side, because I'm up millions of votes on Cruz, millions.
I don't mean like I'm up by two votes. I'm up millions and millions of
votes. We've got a corrupt system, it's not right. We're supposed to be a
democracy. We're supposed to be -- we're supposed to be you vote, and the
vote means something.


BOLLING: Well, Cruz, of course firing back.


SEN. TED CRUZ, REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Donald has been yelling and screaming.


CRUZ: A lot of whining.


CRUZ: I'm sure some cursing.


CRUZ: And some late night fevered tweeting.


CRUZ: All the characteristics I would note we would want in a commander-in-


BOLLING: All right, KG, bring us up to speed. A big weekend for Ted Cruz,
he got all 34 Colorado votes.

KIMBERLY GUILFOYLE, CO-HOST: He did. And you know --

BOLLING: Delegates.

GUILFOYLE: But this is also kind of what Trump is doing is really pushing
for that narrative like don't disenfranchise people, cast a vote, make it
count this process. And he's kind of setting the tone for the argument
might be, if he goes to a contested convention to say, we don't want to do
politics like this, we want people's votes, rights, who they want to vote
for, to be listened to and counted. So Colorado, he was making it more
along the, you know, lyin' Ted narrative, sneaky Ted narrative. Oh, he went
and stole the votes from Colorado, what about the people in Colorado.

BOLLING: Do you wanna --

GUILFOYLE: To see if that sticks.

BOLLING: Do you want to talk just a little bit about the process? I mean,
look -- that is the process, like it or not.


BOLLING: . it's Colorado, they decided that way. The delegates are going to
be deciding who they're going to vote for the nominee process --

JUAN WILLIAMS, CO-HOST: Right. Well, they cancelled the straw


WILLIAMS: And what they did was they did it by congressional district.


WILLIAMS: And then they had this weekend, the party, the Colorado state
Republican Party convention, and that's where you see that when you don't
have the infrastructure, you don't have the players on the ground, when you
don't know the rules of the game, guess what, you lose. And not only lose,
completely lose, 34 to nothing. So this is what, you know, Paul Manafort,
who Trump has brought on now to handle this kind of, you know, shepherd his
delegate -- handling responsibility and said, OK, forget about it, because
we even send in ballots with the wrong names on it. We didn't tell people
who were the Trump delegates in Colorado. He admitted the mistakes. He said
not -- not going forward, give him a week or so, he's going to get this
together. But for right now, you got to say, those are the rules of the
game and you lost. You can't just -- I mean, Manafort says Gestapo tactics.

BOLLING: Yeah, yeah. He did it and on the "Meet the Press" interview with
Chuck Todd, I did create a lot of firestorm of Twitter activity after he
said that. On the other side, let's talk the other side of the process.


BOLLING: . comes to New York State, a week from Tuesday, and all of a
sudden you get 52 percent of the vote. And you basically have a chance at
every single 95 delegates available.

FRANCIS: That's true. And that would be another 100, you know, right there,
but it really does stress that point to. I think average people who haven't
necessarily followed the process so closely, how sort of tied up, and
intricate, and political it really is. I was just talking to somebody who
was a delegate in Colorado, and she was saying, you know, four months,
there have been calls and meetings and this and that. And the other thing
that she's been approached by everyone. Not a word from Trump. You know, he
has no infrastructure and he's just kind of counting on that megaphone
which works really effectively in places like New York where he is really
well-known and where it has this kind of a nominating process. But in a
place like Colorado, it doesn't count at all. And to Americans in other
states, I think it's kind of shocking that this is how it works.

BOLLING: You know what shocking to me Jesse is that, what we see, the
process we're seeing, I frankly didn't even realize it was this way, that
the votes, when people stand in line and they vote for somebody, it's
really not even a vote.


BOLLING: It's kind of a recommendation.

WATTERS: That's right.


WATTERS: But I suggest you do this, but there's no strings attached.


WATTERS: It's corrupt. But Trump knew it was corrupt, and he got
(inaudible). This is what they do in the Soviet Union, they cancel votes,
and they have some guy in the background pick the nominee. It's very
undemocratic, especially in a year that's so consequential. But you said
it, Trump knew the game.


WATTERS: And if Trump is going to be the guy as the deal-maker. You know,
go make some deals, get your face in there. Maybe promise some free round
at Trump national.

FRANCIS: Whatever.

WATTERS: Cover to sweet in the deal or at least twist arms, he didn't do
any of that. So it's little sad to see him complain, but he knew the rules
of the game.

BOLLING: Right, let's do this. John Kasich has only 143 delegates; that's
fewer than Marco Rubio who dropped out last month. He's won only one state
-- his own, but he is still pitching himself as the most electable
candidate in the republican race.


JOHN KASICH, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I'm the only one that consistently
beats Hillary Clinton in the fall. And there is great concern in the
Republican Party that we're not just talking about the presidential race,
that frankly, if we get blown out in the fall, which I think we would with
both Cruz and Trump, we could lose the United States Senate, we would lose
seats all the way from the State House to the courthouse.


BOLLING: An interesting concept now, what is he -- is Kasich saying -- by
the way, that's why you have to hope Trump doesn't get 1237, so that he
wins, and therefore, save the House and the Senate.

WILLIAMS: Right. Well, let's just give Kasich a little tip of the hat, he's
running second in New York to Trump, so he's way ahead of Cruz. Now, who
would have thought that? But given the rhetoric we're hearing from Cruz,
everybody said --



WILLIAMS: Yeah, well, whatever. But I'm saying Kasich is in the New York
right now. Let's just be clear. Eric said earlier, he's 32 points behind
Donald Trump, so don't confuse it. But he's ahead -- he's ahead of Ted
Cruz. So what he's trying to do is appeal to party unity, specifically in
the argument he made in the latter half of his statement about the impact
on Senate races, the impact on House races, and then he said down to the
courthouse that many of the party elders are worried about the Trump-Cruz
effect down on ballot. And so that's his -- that that is best argument, his
hope as he said is, for an open convention.

BOLLING: Not because he -- he's been saying he's the only one who matches
up nicely against Hillary.

WILLIAMS: Well, that may be the case, I don't know if that's true.

BOLLING: KG, nationally, that's really wild.

GUILFOYLE: Yeah, yeah.

BOLLING: Nationally, 63 percent think that the candidate with the most
delegates at the convention, not the majority, just the most delegates,
nationally. They think that's the candidate that should be the nominee.

GUILFOYLE: Right. That sounds kind of fair.

BOLLING: Go to Wisconsin where Trump lost soundly. Handily, he lost. 56
percent of the Wisconsin voters said the candidate with the most delegates
should be the nominee, not necessarily majority. And then National Review,
I think one more number. National Review who hates Trump, they put up a
poll that, by the way, I went on and logged on to, 68 percent agree with
that. So clearly, the American public, at least the GOP side says if you
got the majority going -- I'm sorry, if you have the plurality going into
the convention, you should be the nominee.

GUILFOYLE: Well, right. Well, that sounds pretty fair, doesn't it? It
sounds like Americans and voters and republicans in this primary are
interested in fairness, and the voting -- votes being counted in a proper
way and not to mean like, you know, stealing it in the middle of the night.
As for like John Kasich, I was saying earlier. I think he's like the honey
badger, right? He doesn't care. He's going to stay in --


GUILFOYLE: He doesn't care. It doesn't matter if he gets stung like a
thousand times by bees. He was like, gets back up. And he's like hey, I can
beat Hillary. But you know what, anything can happen in politics, he's --
as you said, he's in second place, so every week something's different
here, but let's see. I think in the end, it's going to be a very tough
argument to knock out somebody if they have the most delegates.

BOLLING: It'll get -- will it?

FRANCIS: Yeah, I think the rules are the rules. I mean, it's not the person
who has the most delegates when you show up at the convention, if they
don't get over the threshold. You can't change the rules because you don't
like how it turned out. I mean, I know the majority of Americans may feel
that way, and maybe when those delegates are going in there and they're
casting their ballots, they could think about that, but it's still -- you
have to play by the rules as they are. As for Kasich, I mean the honey
badger thing.

GUILFOYLE: Honey badger.

FRANCIS: . just makes me laugh (inaudible) because -- so this is his latest
plea. You know, he said the April calendar plays in our favor. We're
looking to finish strong and win some more delegates. Like not win the
whole thing, because it's not possible. But we're going to win, you know,
maybe one or two more.


GUILFOYLE: War of attrition.

FRANCIS: We can do it.

BOLLING: But Jesse, the rules aren't even made yet. They make the rules.


BOLLING: . at the convention -- for that convention.

WATTERS: Yeah. I don't know. I think you got to stick with the rules that
we have going in, but at the same time, who's to say you can't change them
in four years. But if you're going to change rules, I don't trust guys in a
smoke filled room to change the rules the right way. And like you said, the
public wants the plurality; you can go with the public. But I don't think
this party's ever he going with the public.


WATTERS: They do with the big they want.

GUILFOYLE: But you also set your game --

WATTERS: And that's how it's going to play.

GUILFOYLE: Yeah, and he's right. You set up your game plan based on what
the rules are the parameters, the guidelines. Like when you go in to play
football, you expect that there's going to be four quarters, right? You're
not going to expect.


GUILFOYLE: . that you're going to be hey, let's just cut this off at three
because we didn't like, you know, you had momentum going-forward, we don't
want that team to win. It's just abusing.

WILLIAMS: You know what's interesting is that, in fact, Trump and Cruz want
to use the rules against Kasich, because the old rules say, that unless
you've won eight states, you can't be the nominee.

FRANCIS: Because they want to throw that out.

WILLIAMS: They want to get him out this convention.

FRANCIS: Like everybody --


WILLIAMS: That's why you have rules, because everybody wants to win all the
time. You can't rewrite them. I mean, you have to set the rules ahead of
time, because obviously, everybody in here wants to be the nominee and
wants to be the president. This is why people hate politics.


FRANCIS: So you think you know what you're talking about. And then all of a
sudden it's like, oh no, look here, not you.


WILLIAMS: Yeah, yeah.

BOLLING: And really, that is it. Rule 40, there's 42 rules in the RNC, the
42nd rule says, the half -- more than half of the rules, the ones that
really count are deemed temporary. And they'll figure out what the real --



BOLLING: What the permanent rule is going to be a week before the

FRANCIS: That's why hate politics.

BOLLING: Are you kidding me? So all this --

GUILFOYLE: This sounds like a different country, doesn't it?

BOLLING: You wait in line, five hours, you put your vote in and it becomes
a recommendation when it gets to the convention.


BOLLING: Someone who is not even running right now might end up being --

WATTERS: Rubio. Hey --

WILLIAMS: Yeah, yeah.

WATTERS: It looks like Rubio could win this whole thing.

BOLLING: Do you know why that --

FRANCIS: But Watters, how about Watters?


BOLLING: Think about this for one second.


BOLLING: If Marco Rubio is doing what John Kasich is doing, you got to
think that's the play that the GOP is going to go for.

WATTERS: Rubio is going to say, listen, I beat Hillary head to head, bigger
than I'll be Kasich beats Hillary head to head.

BOLLING: So why he dropped out?


BOLLING: Why did he really drop?

WATTERS: He should have stuck in.

WILLIAMS: Are you kidding me?

WATTERS: He could have played king maker.

WILLIAMS: No, no. He didn't want to play --

BOLLING: Wait. He still has more delegates than --

WILLIAMS: No. It doesn't matter.

BOLLING: Kasich does.

WILLIAMS: No, no, no.

BOLLING: And more status.

WILLIAMS: Right. But well --

GUILFOYLE: How so you get one out --

WILLIAMS: Right now, let's give --


WILLIAMS: Let's give everybody a realistic update on this.


WILLIAMS: Right now, Donald Trump, even with the lead he has, would have to
win more than 60 percent.


WILLIAMS: Well say by 60, some people have it higher, 60 percent or so --
I'll give you that, of the remaining delegates from now on, in order to get
to 1237. And Paul Manafort said --

BOLLING: What does Cruz need?

WILLIAMS: I don't -- he need like --

BOLLING: Eight -- 85 percent.

WILLIAMS: Like 80 something -- yeah. And, by the way, Kasich needs a
hundred and twenty. How is that possible, right? OK, but Paul Manafort also
says that right now, he expects that this will go to California; that means
June, that means no candidate, nobody will get to anything, even in the
front-runner's top delegate counter's estimate by the California primary.

BOLLING: Hang on to this. What would the media do if any other candidate
had this happen to them? Check out this cover of the "Boston Globe" from
yesterday. The paper created a fake front page, imagining what a Trump
presidency might look like, and other media outlets actually covered the
story as if it were real news. Now here's Trump reaction to this stunt.


TRUMP: How about that stupid "Boston Globe," it's worthless, sold for a
dollar. Did you see that story? The whole front page, they made up a story
that Trump, they pretended Trump is the president, and they made up the
whole front page as a make believe story, which is really no different from
the whole paper for the whole thing. I mean, the whole thing is made up.


BOLLING: Now Melissa, "New York Times" bought the "Globe" in '93.


BOLLING: . for $1.1 -- get this, $1.1 billion.


BOLLING: And sold it in 2013 for 70 -- they lost 94 percent of the value of
that company.

FRANCIS: That's right. I mean, it was bought eventually for what was it,
$50 million. You can't even get an apartment in New York for $50 million.


FRANCIS: They got all the "Boston Globe" for that money. It's ridiculous.
This is a classic Hail Mary from like you said a failing newspaper. That
said, it is opinion, it is satire in the tradition of this country, so I
can respect a stab at humor, and then, you know, (inaudible). I can't
imagine them doing it to Bernie Sanders, though. I mean, they could have
followed that logical conclusion, had people and you know, bread riots and.

GUILFOYLE: Well, Hillary?

FRANCIS: . well, becomes a socialist country.

GUILFOYLE: Imagine they did it to Hillary Clinton?

FRANCIS: Yeah --

BOLLING: What's the -- I mean, OK. I get it. You want to have some fun. But
like Melissa said, they're just -- are they that desperate for an eyeball?

WILLIAMS: I don't think so.

FRANCIS: We're all talking about it?

WILLIAMS: You know, here in New York, the "New York Daily News" is on their
own agenda going the tirade against Trump. You see this in newspapers. The
Philadelphia papers have done it to some extent too. So Boston, New York,
Philadelphia, what do you see it?

BOLLING: Well, that would be --

WILLIAMS: They think that Trump is running a campaign unlike any other, and
they're willing to do things unlike (inaudible) say --

FRANCIS: No, no.

WILLIAMS: This guy --

FRANCIS: No, no.

WILLIAMS: . is a potential democrat.


BOLLING: This is the whole front page.


BOLLING: They didn't just do a fake and have a funny headline or afternoon

GUILFOYLE: It's not in the cartoon section.

FRANCIS: I know --

BOLLING: This is the whole front page, where they actually --

FRANCIS: And the other big difference, Juan --

WATTERS: I like --

BOLLING: . every story.

WATTERS: . deportations to begin. I think a lot of people in America would
like that.

WILLIAMS: Oh my goodness.

FRANCIS: It's like the "New York Times" doing it.

WATTERS: We're starting with you, Juan.

WILLIAMS: Yes, you are.


FRANCIS: It's like the "New York Times" is doing, when you talk about the
post and the daily news, like they have this back and forth, left and


FRANCIS: Where they're being kind of cheeky and they are being sarcastic,
it's not normal.


FRANCIS: . for the "Globe" to the --

WILLIAMS: The tabloid.

FRANCIS: It would be like doing that the "New York Times" is doing
something like that.


WATTERS: You know what it reminds me? You know when this people are on
their deathbed, and the obituary it says, you know, instead of flowers,
vote against Barack Obama.


WATTERS: This is what the "Globe" is, they're dying. This is their last



FRANCIS: That's right.

BOLLING: . this one.


BOLLING: I'm going to leave right there. Hillary Clinton lost the seventh
straight time to Bernie Sanders this weekend. So why is she putting out new
attack ads against Donald Trump on that. Plus, SNL's amazing takes on
Hillary subway gaffe, coming up.



best way to get around.


CLINTON: It's been a while. Is this a working metro card?


CLINTON: Cab is the best way to get around.


GUILFOYLE: Oh, my god, I love it. I hear you. That happened to me. All
right, SNL had some fun with Hillary Clinton's subway ride -- I did it
twice, last week. Now democratic front-runners campaign yet another snug
over the weekend, she lost to Bernie Sanders in Wyoming, and he's fighting
hard to catch up with her in New York City, which suppose next Tuesday.
Clinton holds a big lead in her home state, but Bernie's has been working
to narrow it by questioning her qualifications and now, her judgment as


enormous amount of money from special interests, a candidate who voted for
the war in Iraq, a candidate who voted for virtually every disastrous trade
policy, which have caused us millions of jobs. Well, you know what? Maybe
her judgment is not quite as high as it should be. But John, I want to get
away from this stuff. I respect Hillary Clinton. I've known her for 25
years. What I want is a debate about on the real issues, impacting the
middle class of this country.


GUILFOYLE: Oh, Bernie, why did you pull it back in? Why did Bernie throttle
back, Bolling? If you want to win, just be like, yes, bad judgment, lying,
et cetera, et cetera. Don't vote.

BOLLING: Yeah, because I don't think this is about Bernie. I think he
realizes he can't beat Clinton on delegates. This is not about him trying
to beat over (inaudible). It's going to happen. She's got 98 percent of the
super delegates and they're not going to switch. Those are party - local
party leaders who went out. They're kind of entrenched in their support for
Hillary Clinton. That's the -- so she's going to get the nomination on
delegates. I think he's hanging around to be a very likeable candidate in
the event the catastrophic happens that she becomes -- she gets indicted
somehow. It's becoming less and less likely as time goes, and President
Obama gets on talk shows and we're not, and says nothing to see here. But,
I think that's his game. I don't think he's going very negative on her,
because -- I think that game -- that ship has sailed, now he's going to be
the likeable Bernie Sanders that has a future in the Democratic Party

FRANCIS: I love the way the democrats do it, because he is just sort of
like, she's trash, she's a liar, but I don't want to go there. You know, I
don't want to say. I'm not going to day that about the candidate. I mean
they can to say it then they real (ph) it back in. I can't believe that the
Sanders folks aren't more hysterical. I mean, all these young people, they
go to rallies and they vote, and vote, and vote, yet their votes don't
count. He keeps winning but he can't possibly win. I mean I can only think
that they're socialists, the people that are voting for Sanders. So by
definition, they can't do math, so they don't realize like they don't have
all these votes and they're not getting anywhere. I mean, it's amazing to

GUILFOYLE: All right. Jesse --

WATTERS: He's been beating around the bush, he wants to call her a liar and
someone you can't trust, but he won't say that because he --

BOLLING: Lyin' Hillary Clinton.

WATTERS: Lyin' Hillary.


WATTERS: He won't do it. So he's finally settled on bad judgment. And I
think that's going to stick, because if you look at the three things he
said, voted for the Iraq war, "Wall Street" money and disastrous trade


WATTERS: No, but in a democratic primary, those will destroy a nominee. The
thing is, he's been late to attacking her and going dirty, just as the
republicans waited too long to go dirty after Donald Trump. Now he's going
dirty late and all that does is create chaos and deteriorate her standing
as she goes into the convention.

GUILFOYLE: OK. Pretty good, Jes, go ahead.

WATTERS: Thank you.

GUILFOYLE: Juan, beat that.

WILLIAMS: You know what? I feel for Bernie Sanders on this, because I think
it's not the case that he's won more primaries than she has won. He doesn't
have more delegates than she was, but he has exceeded expectations. He's
done tremendously well. And everybody, you know, from the newspapers to the
party, never knew that Bernie Sanders was going to raise this much money.
He's raised more money than Hillary Clinton. So it's been a phenomenal
performance. But let me just say, she is actually winning. And as Eric
points out, she's got just about a lock on the delegates. It's possible.
It's possible.

FRANCIS: No, no, Juan. Juan, they're like --

WILLIAMS: . that new higher turnout.

FRANCIS: If you look at this raw delegate count, they're like 200 apart.


FRANCIS: It's close. Then you add in the super delegates, and it's
completely impossible, because those people are bought and paid for.


FRANCIS: That's where the outrage is.

WILLIAMS: Oh, oh, oh.

FRANCIS: Because it's so close.

WILLIAMS: Please, please, please.

FRANCIS: And then she's got all these super delegates lined up that have --

WILLIAMS: Wait, wait, wait.

FRANCIS: They're like --

WILLIAMS: Republican indignation here?

FRANCIS: You have some --

WILLIAMS: Bought and paid for delegates?


GUILFOYLE: It's true.

WILLIAMS: Did I miss -- did I miss the first segment of "The Five" today?
Where Eric was complaining about -- but anyway, let me just finish my
point. Let me finish my point about the democrat.

FRANCIS: Why is that have to do with me?

WILLIAMS: Well, because I don't think if you're going to say they're bought
and paid for, no. In fact Bernie --

FRANCIS: They decided --


FRANCIS: . before the people in their state voted, that they were going to
support Hillary Clinton.

WILLIAMS: They have --

FRANCIS: Why do you do that? I mean, that's a backroom deal.

WILLIAMS: Because they think it's the best interest of the party.

FRANCIS: It's not even against the rules.

WILLIAMS: But let me just say.

FRANCIS: It gets --

WILLIAMS: Bernie's strategy is, to those super delegates, Melissa, that if
he can win New York, and then he can gain some momentum through the Acela
card (ph) here in the east and then flip over to California and win
California. There will be so much pressure, Trump like pressure at the --

FRANCIS: Right, right, right.

WILLIAMS: Republican convention, but in this case at the democratic


WILLIAMS: . that the super delegates would have to --

FRANCIS: Would be embarrassed.


BOLLING: So losing seven in a row or 7 of 9 and then --

WILLIAMS: These are smaller states, and their caucus -- like Wisconsin.

BOLLING: I know, but that wouldn't be enough, though?

WILLIAMS: Wisconsin is open independent.

BOLLING: That wouldn't be enough? I mean --

FRANCIS: A lot of people --


BOLLING: Here's the reality, though.

WILLIAMS: He can win, if he can win in New York --


GUILFOYLE: One at a time, guys.

BOLLING: Here's the reality and correct me if I'm wrong.

WILLIAMS: Go ahead.

BOLLING: These delegates are never going to flip.

WILLIAMS: The super delegates?


WILLIAMS: No, they can flip.

BOLLING: I know they can, but are they going to?


WILLIAMS: Look what happens -- it's like the --



WILLIAMS: I mean, just in recent history in '08 with Obama and Hillary
Clinton. They flip, they went to Barack Obama.

GUILFOYLE: To follow up on your little like train metaphor thing, the
problem is that Bernie Sanders and the Acela and the quiet train. He's not
making enough noise.


WILLIAMS: And in fact this is --you know what he said, you know what he
said yesterday?


WILLIAMS: Basically, you know what, I'd like to do as well as I can. What
does that translate as? I don't really expect to win New York.


FRANCIS: And I don't know even he wants to.

GUILFOYLE: All right. Let's see.


GUILFOYLE: It's all about New York City next Tuesday. But coming up here,
would the CIA's director defy the next commander-in-chief if his agency was
ordered to waterboard terror suspects -- John Brennan's answer and Donald
Trump's response, ahead.


WATTERS: When President Obama took office in 2009, he banned the use of
enhanced interrogation techniques, like waterboarding, to get terror
suspects to talk. Republican candidates like Trump and Cruz vowed they'd
bring the program back. But the CIA's director said his agency would never
implement it.


JOHN BRENNAN, CIA DIRECTOR: Absolutely I would not -- I would not agree to
have any CIA officer carrying out waterboarding again.


WATTERS: Trump, of course, had missed the chance to issue a sharp response.


TRUMP: They chop off heads and they drown people in cages with 50 in a cage
and big steel, heavy cages, drop them right into the water, drown people,
and we can't waterboard, and we can't do anything. And you know, we're
playing on different fields and we have a fight -- a huge problem with
ISIS, which we can't beat. And the reason we can't beat them is we won't
use strong tactics, whether it's this or other things.


WATTERS: Bolling, I don't really take a lot of what he says seriously. This
guy is more of a political guy. He's got a real --


WATTERS: Real spy -- Brennan. I mean he got his e-mail hacked, he was
caught lying to Congress. H won't even say radical Islam. Is he even going
to be the next director of the CIA?

BOLLING: No. In fact, there's a great -- I talked about this before, HBO
has a thing called "Spy Masters." It interviews every single one of the
living former CIA director.


BOLLING: And John Brennan was the one who you really saw, as you point
out, who lined up very closely with President Obama's idea on terror, on
interrogation, on everything CIA, intel operations or whatnot. It's just
not necessary to do that right now.

Aside from undermining the next president, why tell the bad guys what
you're willing and what you're not willing to do. You should just look,
step away from that. I do agree with you, whoever it is, most likely if
it's a Republican president, they'll be someone who lines up a lot more
with the Republican ideas of how they interrogate terrorists.

GUILFOYLE: Yes. Getting stuff done, yes.

WATTERS: Didn't they carve out an exception for the ticking time bomb
scenario? Even Obama keeps that in his back pocket.

GUILFOYLE: Right. It's more for the exigent circumstances. No one's
talking about abusing the situation or interrogation techniques. We're
talking about doing what is actually legal and lawful to be able to do.
And it's going to be up to whoever the next president is and who the next
director of the CIA. So this, like, hypothetical situation where Brennan's
like, you know, soft like brie cheese is not too interesting to me.

WATTERS: It's like, when the CIA director comes across as so soft...


WATTERS: ... to our enemies, Juan, is this what you want the CIA director
doing? "Oh, you know, we're not going to touch you. We're going to be

WILLIAMS: Who said that?

WATTERS: Brennan.

WILLIAMS: That's not what he said.

WATTERS: Yes, he did.

WILLIAMS: I will say this. I think that John Brennan spoke directly to a
key issue, which is how we as Americans feel about the CIA and the kind of
controversy and criticism that the CIA endured when the back and forth took

WATTERS: They endured it, because your party forced them to.

WILLIAMS: But let me just say, you know, your party -- your party, let me
tell you, in 2015, I don't know whose party is whose party, but Republican
majority is in the House and Senate passed a bill that would have banned
waterboarding. It's called a torture.

WATTERS: Juan, the Senate Intelligence Committee under Democratic
leadership basically hung these guys out to dry. Obama was talking about
prosecuting CIA agents for saving lives.

WILLIAMS: That's why you don't want to put CIA agents in a position where
we, as Americans, have any divide about their tactics that we know we
support. And we need that agency, it should function; it should be
effective. It can't be criminal.

FRANCIS: You're having this conversation on this level about what's
happening at the government and what everyone really means. With the
general public, I think, out there hears is, on one side, you have people
who are doing these barbaric things, who are chopping people's heads off
and submerging them in cages.

And we're afraid of words and hurting their feelings with micro aggressions
in response. And that's why you see people out there saying, you know,
among Trump supporters, saying they're willing to support anyone who's
willing to do or say anything to get something done. They're sick of the
sort of semantics that you're talking about.

WILLIAMS: Well, I don't think it's a semantic argument. I think most
people know that, when it comes to torture, they're not...

FRANCIS: I don't think we're talking about torture and waterboarding.
It's not...

WATTERS: James Rosen (ph), her own guy was tortured. They do that in
fraternity parties.

FRANCIS: Now I'm not saying waterboarding is not torture, I don't think
we're having a conversation about waterboarding in particular. I think the
American people are saying, "We're worried. We're concerned. We're afraid
that no one's standing up and being strong about..."

GUILFOYLE: We have Predator drone strikes and blow people to pieces
without -- and that's fine. But we're not going to splash some water on
them, because that would be weird. It's just better to kill them?

BOLLING: Another one that's under the definition of enhanced interrogation
technique. Playing loud music and sleep deprivation. Now, we've decided
that that was too harsh, as well.

Can you imagine that cranking loud music into a terrorist jail cell and
making sure that terrorist stays awake for two or three days at a time,
it's so egregious that it's just not right to do?

GUILFOYLE: And a caterpillar on the shoulder, really bad.

BOLLING: This is the same guy who's slicing children's heads off, killing
nuns, burying people in water while they're alive.

WILLIAMS: Here's the point. What you're saying is very emotionally
satisfying, but is it effective? Is it wrong, though? That's the

WATTERS: Juan -- Juan, we care about victims. We don't care about the
terrorists, we have to run.

WILLIAMS: We care about being effective.

WATTERS: Ahead, President Obama goes on the record about FOX News about
Hillary Clinton's e-mail controversy. What is he now saying about the
investigation and how it may or may not impact the election? That's next
on "The Five."


WILLIAMS: In a wide-ranging exclusive interview this week on "FOX News
Sunday," President Obama was challenged on Hillary Clinton's e-mail
investigation. And he's once again defending his former secretary of


OBAMA: I continue to believe that she has not jeopardized America's
national security. What I've also said is that -- and she's acknowledged,
that there's -- there's a carelessness in terms of managing e-mails that
she has owned and she recognizes. But I -- but I also think it's important
to keep this in perspective. This is somebody who served her country for
four years as secretary of state and did an outstanding job.


WILLIAMS: Although the president doesn't think Clinton committed a crime,
he says the FBI's investigation will not be influenced by him or anybody


CHRIS WALLACE, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: You guarantee the American people, can you
direct the Justice Department to say, Hillary Clinton will be treated as
the evidence goes, she will not be in any way protected?

OBAMA: I can guarantee that. I do not talk to the attorney general about
pending investigations, I do not talk to FBI directors about pending
investigations. They -- we have a strict line and always have maintained
it, I guarantee that there is no political influence in any investigation
conducted by the Justice Department for the FBI. Not just in this case,
but in any case. Full stop, period.

WALLACE: Even if she ends up as the Democratic...

OBAMA: How many times do I have to say it, Chris? Guaranteed.


WILLIAMS: Now Kimberly, he said that she has not jeopardized national
security. And yet, we have an ongoing investigation. And he says he sees
no evidence of intent. But as the Wall Street Journal, in an editorial,
pointed out today, intent is necessary for criminal liability, and is he
sending a signal to the FBI, saying he doesn't see intent?

GUILFOYLE: Has he reviewed all the files and e-mails and has he spoken to
or read all the transcripts of the witnesses? No, so I don't think that it
is proper or appropriate for the commander in chief to make such blanket
statements like saying, in fact, she hasn't done anything wrong, in fact,
she hasn't endangered national security. In fact, she did not have the
requisite intent. I mean, how does he know? How does he know?

WILLIAMS: He didn't say she didn't do anything wrong. He said -- what did
you hear?

FRANCIS: No, I mean, first of all, he stumbled over his explanation. I
mean, that was kind of staggering, when he's sitting there stammering, and
you never hear the president like that. He said there's a certain
carelessness in terms of managing her e-mails. Actually, it isn't about
intent in this case. Judge Andrew Napolitano has said over and over again
you don't need intent. Carelessness right there is breaking of the law.

GUILFOYLE: Negligence.

FRANCIS: And then he went on to say, there's classified and then there's
classified. What? No, there isn't. That's like saying you're either
pregnant, but then there's really pregnant. No, you're either pregnant or
you're not. It's classified or it's not. She broke the law, plain and
simple. I mean, he was testifying, you know, for the prosecution there.


BOLLING: There is -- there is classified. There's a high level of
classified. Yes.

But the problem is, what President Obama got wrong in that, is that she --
there are 22 e-mails at the highest level above classified...


BOLLING: ... of top secret, which -- which we, at least 22. Twenty-two we
know of. I agree with Kimberly. She -- he doesn't think she committed a
crime; guaranteed there's no political influence. How in the world do you
know if, later in that same sound bite, you say, "I didn't talk to the
A.G." But he must be talking to someone to have that theory. He must

GUILFOYLE: Be privy.

BOLLING: He lied about not talking to the A.G. Or you're making this stuff
up for political reasons. One of these two has to be alive.


BOLLING: He could be.

WILLIAMS: Let me just say, he as the president of the United States would
know if somebody...


WILLIAMS: How? Because he would be told by intelligence.

GUILFOYLE: But he's not supposed to be...

WILLIAMS: If somebody had taken -- acted on that information. He knows
that nobody apparently has done back. But Jesse, let me come to that. One
of the things that's so interesting about this is Loretta lynch, the
attorney general; James Comey, the FBI director, if you look at the theory
from people who say, "Well, Obama is sending signals," it would mean that
these folks, their compromise, their integrity is in question.

WATTERS: I love how he says that there's a strict line between myself and
the DOJ. Kind of like the red line in Syria, Juan. We know this guy
doesn't respect lines. He says he never interferes in investigations,
except when he said, there's not a smidgen of corruption in the IRS, or he
said, "Trayvon could have been my son." You remember that, Juan?

WILLIAMS: They're both true.

WATTERS: How about the Cambridge police acted stupidly? The guy
interferes with investigations constantly.

And to Kimberly's point, how do you know? He basically says she's
innocent, but he hasn't been briefed. You can't have it both ways.

BOLLING: Right. So it's either political, which he denied, or he's been
briefed, which he denied.

WILLIAMS: No, no, no. I don't think he's been briefed on the case. I
think that would be -- I think if that comes out, you've got a whole new
ball of wax.

Ahead, what happened at the Masters yesterday? Did you see Jordan Spieth
let the championship slip away? It was painful. They're calling it one of
the shocking collapses of golf history. Hear what Spieth has to say about
it right here, next.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dropping five, hitting six.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What the hell's he going to do?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why would he hit it from here?

KEVIN COSTNER, ACTOR: Give me another ball.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dropping 7. Hitting his eighth shot. And now he's
dropping nine. He's hitting ten.


FRANCIS: Jordan Spieth had his own "Tin Cup" moment yesterday. The golfer
was just a few holes away from another win at Augusta National. He was
leading by five strokes, but he bogeyed at the tenth and 11th and had a
complete implosion at hole 12.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The gap between the bunkers. He's not going to scare
him if he goes long. Oh, my goodness. This is unbelievable. That's the


FRANCIS: Bless his heart. I left the room. You're making me watch it
now? Spieth did some reflecting on his sub-par performance.


JORDAN SPIETH, PROFESSIONAL GOLFER: Publishing (ph) onto the drop zone
where we knew the yardage, it was kind of tough for me to commit over and
over by the 13th hole. So just compounded mistakes, but just the lack of
discipline to hit it over that bunker, coming off of two bogeys, instead of
recognizing that I'm still leading the Masters by a couple shots.


FRANCIS: Listen to his voice. If losing wasn't bad enough, Spieth had to
slip the green jacket on the Masters winner, Englishman Danny Willett. I
mean, that jacket thing is always so awkward anyway. I don't love the
precedent. It's like a bunch of guys going out to a dinner at a club and,
you know, you're supposed to wear a jacket. And one of them forgot it, so
they're lending him one.

I don't know, I mean, what did you think? Were you teary? Were you crying
for him?

BOLLING: I can't tell you how -- I was really emotional.

FRANCIS: I know.

BOLLING: The reason why he had to put the jacket on is because he won last
year. So sports is so crazy. You've got to hit a tiny ball like this with
a stick, whether it's baseball or golf, it's so -- sometimes the ball will
look this big to you. It doesn't matter what you do: you're going to hit
it, and you're going to hit it perfect.

Other times, this is what happens, and you start to choke, and you just
can't get out of it. He was caught in that -- with the world looking at
me, I don't know what to do. No matter what I do, he just could not hit
the ball straight; he couldn't hit it solid. I feel for that guy. I've
been there.

FRANCIS: He's 22. He's 22. He won last year. He obviously has a huge
career. But still was painful. Did you -- you don't care. You're going
to say something sarcastic.

WATTERS: No, I watched it.

FRANCIS: Here it comes unfeeling.

WATTERS: I didn't feel as bad for him when I remembered he plays golf for
a living. I mean, he's got it pretty good, but it just shows you how tough

FRANCIS: What do you do for a living, Jesse Watters?

BOLLING: It's like you're hosting a show. You're solo hosting. You're
standing there. It's a live show. And you're dropping words. And

WATTERS: Never happened to me before. So...

BOLLING: Let's hope it doesn't.

GUILFOYLE: You're not a choke artist?

BOLLING: It's insane.

WATTERS: I feel bad nor him, but you know, the guy's got it made. He's
young. He's already got teenagers. He'll be fine.

WILLIAMS: They thought that about Tiger Woods at one time. And look at
how his head is all screwed up. I was reading about Tiger Woods in Sports
Illustrated this week, and I did -- the headline said it all: "What

And so you get into the head of somebody who's 22, you know, in baseball
they say if you think, you stink. So he's there. He gets to the 13th. By
that point he's thinking; he's not playing. It's all in his head, and now
at 22. I mean, gosh, he had a chance to go into a league with Tiger Woods.

GUILFOYLE: He's going to make it. It's one match, come on.

WILLIAMS: No. To win two Masters in a row. That sets you apart.

GUILFOYLE: But he's 22. I'm not going to count him out.

FRANCIS: No, no.

GUILFOYLE: Good sports psychology, coach, it will be fine.

WILLIAMS: You know what I liked about this? There was all the comparison
to the crying Jordan meme online. It's like, "Oh, he's crying." And then
the other one was he's a better loser than Cam Newton, who lost the Super
Bowl, because he handled it with terrific grace.

FRANCIS: He did. That's true.

BOLLING: And he's the best -- he's the best in his sports. I agree with
you. He'll be back.

FRANCIS: Let's end on that note, very positive.

All right. "One More Thing" is up next.


BOLLING: Are you ready? Are you sure?



GUILFOYLE: Put me in, Coach.

I want to say a very special happy birthday to our friend and co-host, the
super talented Mr. Juan Williams.

WILLIAMS: Oh, you're so kind.

GUILFOYLE: Twenty years in television, best-selling author.


WILLIAMS: Thank you, Sean (ph).

GUILFOYLE: Also, I would like to invite you all to help buy a birthday
present for Juan, but just buy a book. That would make him very happy, all
right? "We, The People: The Modern-Day Figures Who Have Reshaped and
Affirmed the Founding Fathers' Vision of America." I also posted a link to

WILLIAMS: Thank you.

GUILFOYLE: ... on Amazon and Facebook. Happy birthday. Great to have you
at the table.

WILLIAMS: Thanks so much. That's wonderful.

GUILFOYLE: Wonderful part of the...

FRANCIS: That book was fantastic, by the way.

WILLIAMS: Thank you, ma'am.

GUILFOYLE: For good luck.

WILLIAMS: All right. I'll do it just right. That -- look, I -- right in
the middle.


GUILFOYLE: Give it back to the Puerto Rican woman.

WATTERS: Oh, my goodness.

WILLIAMS: So let me just -- I'm going to do mine now. Because so
yesterday, I turned 62 on Sunday, and my wife got the wait staff at
Oceanaire, my favorite restaurant in D.C., to put 63 candles on one cake.
And that's me trying to blow it out before it starts the fire. There's a
family picture.

And of course, I had my girlfriends with me. They're Pepper and Wesley
with their granddad. And look at that, Kylo Ren from "Star Wars" showed up
for the party. It was Eli, my grandson, dressed as the villain of "Star
Wars." By the way, I'm going to do a Facebook Q&A tonight right after the
show. We're going to talk politics. We're going to talk about my new
book, "We, the People." So go to We'll be there
taking your questions.

BOLLING: All right.

GUILFOYLE: Give me cake.

BOLLING: We're going to eat cake. So watch this first. You remember last
week we talked about Rick Scott. Governor Scott walked into a Starbucks
and got basically derided by a liberal young lady? Well, Governor Rick
Scott's pack fought back this weekend, watch.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You may have seen this video of a terribly rude woman
at a coffee shot cursing and screaming at Governor Scott? That woman
clearly has a problem. And it turns out that she's a former government
official who refused to recite the Pledge of Allegiance and calls herself
an anarchist.


BOLLING: Yes, so it was really strange the way she went right at Governor
Scott, remember at Starbucks with the 7 dollar latte and her $1,500 laptop.
But he fought back. Good for him.

And Jesse, you're up.

GUILFOYLE: Haters gonna hate.

WATTERS: Another reason not to like animals.


WATTERS: A reason why I don't touch animals. There's a guy walking
around, minding his own business. Here he is: wild monkey dropkicks him to
the back. Out of nowhere. The guy was doing nothing to deserve this.

GUILFOYLE: Oh, my gosh.

WATTERS: Guy goes down hard. I want to see that monkey in handcuffs.

GUILFOYLE: Does that monkey have a whip? Or was that a...


BOLLING: Where was this?

WATTERS: This was a land far, far away, Bolling.

BOLLING: You have no idea, right?

WATTERS: I'm going to go with India.

GUILFOYLE: You were a disaster in our segment...

FRANCIS: We don't have any idea what happened before this. I mean, we
don't know what he did to the monkey. For all we know, he totally deserved
it. Anyway, with that...

BOLLING: You're up.

FRANCIS: OK. My turn. Everybody knows I have an obsession with
hamburgers and hamburglars. Well, if you didn't know that, now you know.
Watch this video. This is from Saturday night in the Washington, D.C.

So this guy breaks into -- I think this is a Five Guys Burger. Look at
him. So he's basically -- look, he's going to make himself a burglar.
He's basically preheating the oven. What you saw before is he washed his
hands, thank goodness. Because if you're a dirty burglar and you go in to
make yourself a burger, you want to wash your hands. He flips the burgers.

GUILFOYLE: Maybe they should hire him.

FRANCIS: Yes, right, exactly.

BOLLING: He wants to work.

FRANCIS: At one point here -- I'm choking on my cake here -- he gets on
the phone. I think he's taking more orders. I mean, you would think he's
a former employee, but they sent the video out asking for help to find him.
They have a full shot of his face, and they have no idea who he is. He
broke in at 3 a.m. in the morning, washed his hands, made a burger.

BOLLING: This could be...


GUILFOYLE: Wouldn't it be amazing if, like, a McDonald's worker broke into
a Burger King?

FRANCIS: This is really good.

WILLIAMS: This cake is excellent (ph).

BOLLING: Happy birthday, Juan.

Buy his books. Set your DVR so you never miss an episode of "The Five."
That's it for us. "Special Report" coming up next.

WILLIAMS: Thank you.

Content and Programming Copyright 2016 Fox News Network, LLC. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Copyright 2016 Roll Call, Inc. All materials herein are protected by United States copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed, transmitted, displayed, published or broadcast without the prior written permission of Roll Call. You may not alter or remove any trademark, copyright or other notice from copies of the content.