Candidates play expectations game ahead of Wisconsin primary

Predictions and analysis on 'The Five'


This is a rush transcript from "The Five," April 5, 2016. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

ERIC BOLLING, CO-HOST: Hello, everyone, Happy Election Day. I'm
Eric Bolling along with Kimberly Guilfoyle, Juan Williams, Dana Perino and
Greg Gutfeld. It is 5 o'clock in New York City, 4 p.m. in Wisconsin, and
this is "The Five."

The polls close in the badger state in four hours, 8:00 p.m. Central Time.
Soon after that we may have a much clearer picture as to how the GOP
presidential race will shake out. The stakes appear high, but all three
candidates don't seem to be too concerned about the outcome.


good about it. But I have won most of the states, and you know Ted goes
around saying that he won here, he won there, but I've won much more than
he has. I won many, many more states than he has. He refuses to say that.
You know, he just leaves that out of the equation.

SEN. TED CRUZ, REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I can't tell you how many media analysts
I heard saying, well Donald Trump is going to run away with Wisconsin. To
one they forgot is the actual voters of Wisconsin. I believe tomorrow
night, we're going to have a terrific victory here in Wisconsin.


is saying he's taking my voters. Trump says he's taking my voters. Yeah,
they're right. They are both right. I'm taking both of their voters.


BOLLING: Will Wisconsin be a game change? Some think so. The Cruz crowd
thinks a big delegate win could change the momentum, but the Trump team
doesn't think Wisconsin will change much unless it's followed up with
losses in the big upcoming northeastern states. But, ahead of the Wisconsin
results, some were playing the expectations game. Karl Rove --



GEORGE W. BUSH: If he wins Wisconsin, the contest is over. If not, it's
gonna go on and the math becomes somewhat more difficult.

SCOTT WALKER, GOVERNOR OF WISCONSIN: I believe Ted Cruz is going to win
today, that's going to be the turning point in this election.


BOLLING: Chief political anchor Bret Baier is in New York and joins us now
at the table for more on the Wisconsin primary. Bret, this question,
Wisconsin, 42 delegates -- how big is it?

BRET BAIER, "SPECIAL REPORT" ANCHOR: Well, first of all you didn't have to
get dressed up for me.


BAIER: It's the first time you have a tie on.


BAIER: Listen, it's a big deal. It's a big deal. And I don't think what
Karl Rove said is tremendously right on. I don't think if Trump wins, it's
completely over. I do think that if Cruz wins, it does change the dynamic a
bit. But it's -- as we talked many times, it's all about the math. It's all
about adding up these delegates. And you know, if Cruz wins and don't only
wins by a small margin, you're talking about not a lot of difference in
delegates. And it's all about getting to 1237.

BOLLING: Can I just throw these couple of numbers at you very quickly,
April 19th, New York, 95 delegates -- big number, but a week after that,
April 26th, Connecticut, Delaware, Maryland, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island,
172. Can you say that seven or eight day period right there is the election
or the nomination is in that period?

BAIER: I think --

BOLLING: And then come down?

BAIER: That period will be huge, but the other one to look at is
California, June 7th, and the whole basket of delegates come California;
that could be decisive. And you know, anybody -- this election will not be
solved as primary, until California. You won't have Donald Trump, even if
he hits a streak, he's not going to seal it at 1237, until he gets to
California. And so it all depends on, you know how things come along.
Tonight is a big night, though.


BOLLING: Momentum. There are a couple of weeks after Wisconsin, (inaudible)
some game-change, some momentum play going forward.

GUILFOYLE: Sure. And I think tonight is a big piece of that kind of
momentum going forward. Who's going to perform and who's gonna out perform
this. There's a lot of, you know, expectations on all sides, a lot of
pressure on Kasich to get out. Let see how he does. And then also in terms
of the money to come in, depending on how people fair tonight. There is a
lot of pressure on Donald Trump to perform very well. And Cruz has talked a
big game, and there's people have a very good ground organization. They
have been very aggressive going after delegates, and trying to take this
out, so kind of having a very smart like strategy going forward. So
tonight, I think Rove is right that if Trump does well and he takes -- that
is, that's going to be very difficult. I think going forward, because he
should well, as well in other states --


BOLLING: What do you think, Dana, where are you in the Wisconsin race?

DANA PERINO, CO-HOST: What? I think it's very important. I'm
just thinking, though, to your point about California. I can't remember a
time when the primary -- republican primary in California have actually
mattered. I don't think that's ever happened in my lifetime when I lived in
San Diego during the 2000 election. Pretty much they all -- the republicans
kind of, they never would never that they were writing off California, but
they never actually thought spent a lot of money there. So California could
actually be extremely interesting that if you're living there and you're a
republican, this could be your year to have some fun and to have some
attention. I think of Wisconsin as the 20 mile mark of a marathon. So, if
you got into this point, that's really good. But the next six miles are
really, really hard. So you have to try to fuel in Wisconsin, so you should
get to the rest of the race.

BOLLING: Greg, Wisconsin is important in that. It's a very political state.
Not that the 42 delegates are massive but, I mean, we've -- the birth of
the Republican Party could be traced to Wisconsin. The democrats can be
traced to Wisconsin. The recall votes for Scott Walker to Wisconsin. If you
know anything about Wisconsin, spending a time in Wisconsin, which I have,
they're very political and they're very rigid. They don't switch much. Once
they have an idea, they don't flip-flop, they don't really move much.

GREG GUTFELD, CO- HOST: And the question --


BOLLING: OK, I'll tell you the question. Early in the polls had Donald
Trump leading.


BOLLING: After polls said Ted Cruz leading. Now, they're kind of mixed. How
do you think it plays?

GUTFELD: Well, I think it's -- Wisconsin is the final hurdle, I think. It's
like the drug sniffing dog at the airport. Once you get past it, everything
is smooth sailing. At least that's how I look at it. Look, if you're a
conservative, you got to ask yourself -- I'm honest about this, I really
don't care about Wisconsin. I care about the general election. I don't want
to see another Dick Morris fiasco, right? Where you know, you deny the
reality of what's happening before your eyes, and it's happening before
your eyes, but you're saying, no, you're going to win, you're going to win.
What is the point of a vote that makes you feel good now if it leads to you
feeling really awful in November? So when you're voting you have to think
about who can win in the general election. That make, that make mess with
your strategy a bit, and made you think, should I vote for this person or
should I vote for a spoiler. I don't know. But that's why I just can't -- I
don't get worked up about primaries. I'm just thinking about the general.


GUILFOYLE: You can't get to the general unless you put up some numbers in
the primaries.

GUTFELD: I understand that. So I'll let you guys talk about the primaries,
I'll worry about the general.

GUILFOYLE: OK. Sit quietly (inaudible).

BOLLING: So do you want to weigh in on the GOP before we do --

JUAN WILLIAMS, CO-HOST: Sure. Well, you know, to me, I was
interested in what you and Greg were talking about, because right now I
think the estimates as I saw in the "Wall Street Journal" this morning,
Trump needs about two thirds of the remaining delegates. If he is able to
win Wisconsin, that still about the same, it's only about 43 delegates, as
you were saying. But if he losses, it would bump up to like 70 percent. It
makes it tougher for him to get to that 1237. And this is critical because
at this juncture, what we're seeing is the republican establishment,
concentrating its resources on -- particularly taking by the message coming
out of the -- coming out of Trump campaign today that so much Super PAC
money is behind Cruz in Wisconsin. They said there are by eight Super Pac's
that are funding Ted Cruz, Ted Cruz was down with about $8 million in the
bank, he raised 60 plus, but he's pretty much low on funds at the moment.
He is being sustained by this Super PAC's. So the Trump people say, "You
know what this is all -- they don't really love Ted Cruz, they just hate
me. They're just trying to stop me from getting 1237."

BOLLING: This is a big -- this is a big point. Can I look -- throw it to
you? Let's just say Donald Trump doesn't get to 1237. They go to the
contested convention. All these people who have loved Ted Cruz, they have
endorsed him, they establish in the fight, you know, Jeb Bush, Mitt Romney,
et cetera. Where are they going to go? Will they back Ted Cruz on the
second ballot or they're going to go somewhere else?

BAIER: That's a great question. I think their ultimate hope is to get
somebody that they like. And they really don't Donald Trump, obviously. And
they don't love Ted Cruz. But right now, he's the vessel to gets them to
contested convention. Just to your point, Juan, on the GOP side, you have
the anti-Trump people spending $2 million, never Trump adds.


BAIER: . PAC's. That's outside of the Cruz people. So you have the Cruz
people, the campaign, the Cruz Super PAC's, and then, the never Trump Super
Pac's, all spending money against Donald Trump in Wisconsin. And that goes
to show, you know, how much (inaudible).

PERINO: Can I actually weigh in on that?

BOLLING: Jump in.

PERINO: Just a little bit. I just want to say that I think that Ted Cruz
has surprised a lot of people. He might have grown on few people who were
thought they could never support him. Partly instead, Kimberly was talking
about the impressiveness of the ground operation, organization, after look
at that and say, they were thinking way far ahead. They spent money pretty
wisely, even though I know they need -- probably need an infusion of cash
now. But it's that very little money and some of the states that he did
well. And then so, I think he has earned a lot of respect, and probably
earned respect from people who didn't think they would ever sport him.

BOLLING: Will they support him on a second ballot?

PERINO: I think that they might. I think they might. Because I think that
he has shown that he has earned it.


GUILFOYLE: Well, he's capable of winning and applying the same strategies.


GUILFOYLE: . that is proven effective against someone in the general
election like Hilary Clinton, like he did in Iowa.

BOLLING: All right. Let's move on to this. Melania Trump could campaign
trail for husband yesterday, defending him against his critics.


MELANIA TRUMP, WIFE OF DONALD TRUMP: He has a great, you know, great, great
nights and he can be presidential, but sometimes he just like, he cannot
stand if somebody attacks him if, because if somebody attacks him, he will
punch back 10 times harder.


M. TRUMP: I think he's the man. He respects women. He hires the women on
the highest positions, and he trusts them. And he, he is the one that will
take care of them. He is the only one.



BOLLING: So Bret, how did that go for him, bringing Melania in the trail?

BAIER: Listen, I think any time you have your wife out there it softens
you, somebody like Donald Trump. Obviously she's a gorgeous lady and she's
well-spoken, and she can talk on his behalf, and that helps you. I don't
know why she hasn't been on the campaign trail all throughout. I think that
appearance probably worked out pretty well for him. But she has not, not
appeared that much on the campaign trail and arguably with women and the
numbers you're seeing in the polls. He could use a little more female

BOLLING: Could use some help also, you may get some help from Ivanka when
she is back --


GUILFOYLE: Yes, Ivanka is super smart, very personable. Obviously she has
had her hands full, congratulations on the baby. So I think you'll see her
out. She really believes in her father. They have a very close, you know,
relationship. And you know, you saw, Bret, in Detroit, Melania was there at
the debate with him and by his side. And she stood and did the whole, you
know, spin room and the (inaudible) until one in the morning, answering
questions and standing by him. So I think it's that -- I mean, having been
a political wife, yeah. I think it's important. You got to be out there,
you have to be able to be an effective surrogate on behalf of your husband,
the candidate at all times. Whether it is fund-raising, or speaking in
small groups, parties, et cetera; to get out the vote. It's, you know, two
for the price of one, (inaudible).

BOLLING: Dana, you said that the Ted Cruz can grow the establishment types.
Can Donald Trump grow on women?

PERINO: It's possible. And I think that all men marry up, OK, right? We're
going to agree with that?


BAIER: Definitely true.

GUILFOYLE: Say yes. You forget Juan.

PERINO: And so -- yeah, I think that having her there. I read a feature
story on her, (inaudible), and it was very interesting because she is a
very independent person. She's very supportive wife. And I think maybe a
reluctant campaigner, but supporter of him, so she's been there all along.
So I think I'm having her do the interview is good. I don't think
necessarily that people make decisions to vote for an individual and check
that box based on their spouse. I think that's highly usual.


WILLIAMS: Let me do the skunk at the garden party here. Look, I think Trump
has had a terrible week, specifically with women's issues, the abortion
issue, the reporter being grabbed and complaining about it, and then Trump
back in his guy. And then, of course, you start to get in to this. You know
a lot of people are going to say, he's married to this gorgeous woman. He's
been married with three times or whatever. This -- I mean, she is coming in
like an ambulance. I'm trying to use Greg's kind of analogy.

GUTFELD: I have one.

WILLIAMS: Yes, you have one? Help -- OK, help me out. What was it?

GUTFELD: If Donald Trump is the veggie tray, she's the ranch dressing. Her
job is to make him more palatable, because he reminds -- she reminds me of
another woman married to a loud mouth, i.e. my poor wife. All women have to
endure their husband's obnoxious.

GUILFOYLE: Poor Elena.

GUTFELD: Yeah, yeah, poor Elena. Whether be on TV, whether be on a campaign
trail, or maybe Twitter.

PERINO: Application.


GUTFELD: On Twitter, or us.


GUTFELD: Those women are your guard rails. And, so they -- she's probably
when he comes to home, she's probably telling me, "Why did you do that? Can
you please stop doing that? And he's like, "I speak my mind" and she said,
"I got to go out there." So she's kind of like, she's the ranch dressing
that makes the horrible veggie tray taste a little better.

BOLLING: I like the guy. I like the end of the bumpers for kids when they
are --


BOLLING: Bolling alley when they can't control --

GUTFELD: That's what women do.

BOLLING: When they can't control, got a ball that's -- maybe what she does.

GUTFELD: That's true.

BOLLING: They tell me you got to go. You have an --

BAIER: I do have to go.

BOLLING: Bret, you can catch him on "Special Report" at 6:00 p.m. and later
with Megyn Kelly on "America's Election Headquarters" starting at 8:00 --
or 8:50 p.m. eastern. They'll announce the winner of this election before
the night is over, so you don't want to miss that. Up next here, Bill
O'Reilly's prediction on what Trump supporter will do in November if their
candidate doesn't get the nomination. Stick around.


GUILFOYLE: Only (inaudible) with my song. Welcome back to "The Five" on
primary day in Wisconsin. Last night, Bill O'Reilly spend some time
analyzing the Trump phenomena and spoke about the frustrated white males in
the working class who are helping fuel (inaudible). Here's what he predicts
they'll do with their candidates doesn't get the nomination.


BILL O'REILLY, "THE O'REILLY FACTOR" HOST: The issue of white grievance not
going away. And Trump will maintain a very loyal level of support. Many of
his supporters, as I said, are furious. And if Mr. Trump does not get the
nomination, the stay home factor. In next November's vote, is likely to be


GUILFOYLE: And a new Quinnipiac survey indicates a lot of American voters
are dissatisfied today, 57 percent say they're falling behind financially,
62 percent think they beliefs and values are under attack. And three
quarters believe that public officials do not care what they think. Sounds
like at this table, right Juan?

WILLIAMS: What do you mean?


GUILFOYLE: Dissatisfied. Does anyone care what you think?


GUILFOYLE: Juan, once again --

WILLIAMS: I don't know about that. I always feel like, you guys are given
that on the liberal around here. You guys treat me pretty well. So I --

GUILFOYLE: So do you think people are going to stay at home? What O'Reilly
has saying?

WILLIAMS: Oh yeah. And you know what I was interested in it was the fact
that he was talking about it so bluntly. I mean that's the thing about
O'Reilly, he just tells it. I mean, he just say, hey, this is angry white
men and they're a major factor in 2016 election. So you -- it's not only by
the way among republicans, you can also see it among democrats with the
Sanders crowd. In fact, I think they're gonna compete for that, both
tonight in Wisconsin, because in Wisconsin, you can register on the same
day and decide if you want to vote in the republican or democratic primary.
So which way does the angry white man go? I don't know. But I was so
impressed because, I know that if you ask people questions like, is this
the country you grow up in? White men in America say no. They say, "I feel
like a stranger in my own country." This is a major issue. But again, I was
impressed by Bill O'Reilly because people generally don't want to talk
about it in these terms, but its white working class males.

GUILFOYLE: All right, Eric. What do you think?

BOLLING: I'm not -- I'm gonna disagree that it has anything to do with
race. I think this is the party dividing amongst itself. I mean you have
the Trump crew and the not Trump crew, so it's whoever doesn't. Whether
you're democrat or Cruz or a Kasich supporter, you are not Trump, and then
the Trump. So what everyone was worried about is if you get to the
convention, it was a contested convention. And someone besides Trump or
Cruz, who probably will have 80 or 85 percent of the delegates, isn't the
one who gets nominated. There's gonna be huge anger among the Trump crew.
If Ted Cruz goes there and it's not Ted Cruz, but Cruz people aren't gonna
show up either. The reason why this is going on it's because instead of
getting behind a front-runner early, like you normally do, typically do in
a primary season, they're gonna let this thing go in the last minute.
Whereas Dana points out, California maybe decider in a month or month in
half from now. And the people -- and the losers are going to be so bitter
that they're going to walk away and say, "I'm done." We're basically
handing an election to Hillary Clinton, because people we are so divided on
this side. I'm not saying who's right, who's wrong but --

GUTFELD: Because I'm talking about eventual outcome.

BOLLING: Yeah, I am so tired of hearing republican say, "If Trump is the
nominee, I will not vote this time." I will tell you -- or if Cruz, trump
people say, if Cruz is the nominee, they take away for I will not vote. You
got to say, I want trump, I want Cruz or Kasich, or even someone else, but
I will vote, if it's not my guy. You have to vote. Because unless you want
more Supreme Court justice being liberal, if you're not worried about
Senate seats and House seats, you got to vote whether your guy is in or

WILLIAMS: You don't get it. These people are angry.

BOLLING: Oh, I do.

GUILFOYLE: OK, but at the same time, are they -- Dana, are they angry
enough to say, you know what, we'll just hand it over to Hillary Clinton
and forget it? Forget the White House?

PERINO: Well, I think -- so Bill O'Reilly could point about angry white
men, I guess that was he was talking about. And I remember, I just talked
about this book "Coming Apart" by Charles Murray, read a copy, years ago,
and I thought about a lot, ever since. Because a lot of the issue -- the
anger is not just at Washington, it is about a whole bunch of things, and
partly, it's economic. I think also the last years of President Obama has
fuelled a lot of it, especially on national security, and feeling like the
country is an exceptional nation, but he is not allowing it to be, and I
want to get back to that. I do think, though, that there is significant
number of people who are not going to be persuaded to vote, by being brawl
beaten by it. So O'Reilly is saying that they might stay home. I also think
that it's very true that there could be a significant number that stays
home, if the choice is Trump versus Clinton. And that's not just
republicans, but also democrats who are not enthusiastic about her. So you
have a turnout problem on both sides.

GUILFOYLE: Like Sanders --

PERINO: The other thing is, is that -- I know that we spend a lot of time
and O'Reilly talked about the men that are angry. They answer that in the
last two elections -- presidential elections, women have outvoted men by 10
million or more. So it's one thing to have angry white men, but we're not
making any more of those. There are new voters. And there are a lot of
women by 10 million votes. I mean that's a significant number. So somebody
on the campaign trail has to start thinking about that.

GUILFOYLE: Yeah, and thinking about it for the long term as well. So Greg,
do you agree with O'Reilly? Do you see it coming down along race and gender

GUTFELD: Well, it's interesting. I wonder if we ever do a segment on angry
black men.




WILLIAMS: We do it all the time.


WILLIAMS: We do it regularly.

GUTFELD: That's true.


BOLLING: I disagree.

GUTFELD: But anyway --

BOLLING: It's the D-block.

GUTFELD: Yes, the --


GUTFELD: It seems like -- there are two kinds of anger that I think that he
might be referring to. One is to revolve against liberal fascism, which on
a Goldberg called, liberal fascism, but tolerance movement made every word
an infraction. Trump is the pendulum swing away from that. Everybody got
sick and tired of having to watch their words, and here is a guy that comes
along who doesn't care. And everybody finds it refreshing. The other anger
comes from the disdain for circumstance that my life isn't how I envision
it to be. And so whether you can blame politicians, with sometimes they
don't have -- it's not their fault. You can blame globalization, which is
kind out of your control. You can blame automation, which is inevitability.
These things you cannot change. But there is one thing you can change and
that is your life. And if you're going to pursue happiness, pursuing
happiness requires an actual pursuit, you have to chase it. So if things
are working out in your life, I moved five times in my career. I moved from
California to Allentown, to D.C, to London, to find work. You don't want
government to encourage you to stay put in a place that requires or that
offers no opportunity. Protection is -- protectionism in terrorist will not
get you out of where you are. It will just keep you there. So you need to
actually look at -- look, you have to ask yourself, where is this anger
coming from? Is it something that you can control or you can change? Or is
it just something that you're just going to have to adapt to, but more than
-- we're watching all of these people move to Texas. Why they are moving to
Texas -- opportunity.

PERINO: It's true.

GUILFOYLE: Yeah, taxes, great weather.

GUTFELD: Sometimes you got to leave.

GUILFOYLE: And singles (ph). All right, next. Is the Clinton can worry they
may lose the nomination to Bernie Sanders. The e-mails just sent Hillary
supporters that show sign of panic. Stay with us.


WILLIAMS: Hillary Clinton is bracing for the possibility of another defeat
in today's primary. And her campaign seems to be rattled by Bernie Sanders.
An e-mail sent to supporters last night read, quote, "Two quick updates.
First, we're down on almost every poll in Wisconsin. Tomorrow's primary is
going to be a tough fight. Second, the Sanders campaign raised over $43
million in March, making that the third month in a row, they've outraised
us. This nomination isn't locked up yet, and we've got to keep fighting for
every vote of we want to see Hillary Clinton in the White House." Sanders
doesn't have any plans to back down, though, he's even taunting his rival
as his momentum builds.


BERNIE SANDERS, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If there's a large voter turnout,
we will win here. If we win here, we're going to have a bounce going into
New York state, where I think we can win. If we win in New York state,
between you and me, I don't want to get Hillary Clinton more nervous than
she already is. She is already under a lot of pressure. Don't tell her
this. But I think we win here, we win in New York state, and we're on our
way to the White House.


WILLIAMS: Dana, that's funny. That was really funny. I like what...

PERINO: I find him -- I don't know. In spite of myself, I find him funny
and charming.

WILLIAMS: What about the substance?

PERINO: The substance? I thought that the e-mail stuff was a little dire,
right, but I think that that probably does signal that they are really
worried about it. There could also be a little of setting expectations so
that her people don't panic.

I mean, there's probably no reason for them to panic. I think Eric's done
a really good job of running out those numbers for all of us on the
delicate side for Hillary Clinton. It's almost a sure thing, so there's a
little bit of an exercise in futility.

However, I do think that there is some restlessness about the super
delegate process on the Democratic side. And I think that the momentum on
-- from the Bernie Sanders is talking about is a good one.

The other thing is, is that she does not improve as a candidate. He does.
He gets -- you want to listen to him more, you kind of want to listen to
her less. I think that is a problem for her, and I know they're going to
debate, I guess, next week.

WILLIAMS: All right.

PERINO: She's going to needs that debate.

WILLIAMS: Yes, they have agreed to a debate now. It will be April 14, 9
to 11 p.m., so Gregory, though, Dana's point -- Joel Benenson, her
pollster, has the same point -- really, there's very little way in which
Sanders can close the gap, so what's going on here?

GUTFELD: Well, there is one thing he can do. In this next debate that
we're talking about, he should step it up. He only has to ask one

PERINO: Who pushed the video?

GUTFELD: Who pushed the video? That would be a good one.

No, would you be OK if every member of your cabinet had its -- had their
own private server? He's a state away from that. And that one question
would trip her up, unless she watches "The Five" and is now formulating an
answer. But I don't think she does.

But that question, if he asked that, would screw her up. But I -- it's
true. I like listening to Bernie Sanders. I always feel like I'm in line
in a deli and I'm waiting for him to order the potato salad. I don't want
the bagel. I just want the potato salad.

GUILFOYLE: He'll be doing that soon.

WILLIAMS: The Clinton people say, in fact, you know, maybe they're just
trying to raise money. They're trying to stir up their supporters to give
money, because they have been trailing in the money game.

But as to whether or not this is really, you know, an alarm, like we're
going to lose, we're going to lose...

GUILFOYLE: This is not a panic attack e-mail. This is just, you know,
Campaign 101. Of course, she's got to say, "Hey, listen, we need help. We
need support." Everybody sends these out after the debates or before a
primary, et cetera. Yes, she should be trying to raise more money, because
it's really embarrassing that he's raising this much more cash than she is.

Yes, she has the delegates locked up, but she can't act like it. She can't
act like she's bought the election already, but she's got the delegates.
No. So she's got to say, "I need your support. We've got to have some
momentum." And she's got to, you know, under-promise and hopefully over-
deliver, despite the predictions and expectations, you know, in Wisconsin.
This is part of the game and the messaging. It's smart. It's what she has
to do. But we know what's ultimately going to happen.

WILLIAMS: Two weeks to New York, Eric. Do you think there's any way that
he can push ahead now and suddenly catch up?

BOLLING: It's -- delegate-wise, it's over. I mean, he -- she's ahead 270
bound delegates, 800 plus super delegates. And Kimberly and Dana both hit
on the -- it's all about expectations.

But also this. Remember, New York is important. She's got a big lead the
week after New York. I pointed out, on the GOP side, equally as big on the
Democrat side.

PERINO: She has to win.

BOLLING: Massive amount of delegates in Northeast Connecticut, Delaware,
Maryland, Pennsylvania. She's going to lock it down there for sure, but
she's got to keep her people focused. She's got to keep her people in the
game to make sure that they bring her across that finish line. After that,
she's -- it's over after that.

But she has to keep them at least hungry for the win. Not like, "Oh, we
got this." It will just lay back, and it will get weird.

GUILFOYLE: It's not the 90-yard dash.

BOLLING: Intervention with a close race. She's got it. She just needs it
by a wide margin.

WILLIAMS: All right. Ahead, cities are finding a new way to fight crime.
They're going to pay criminals not to commit the crimes. Do you think
that's going to work? Gregory has a lot to say about it, next.


GUTFELD: They'll pay them not to kill you. Cities are trying to adopt a program in Richmond, California, where criminals are paid not to commit crime. I'm serious; this is for real. I wish I had dreamt it, but I didn't.

One thug earns a grand a month to stay out of trouble. At least twice, suspected killers have been in the same program. City leaders say this has cut their homicide rate and now Miami, Toledo and D.C. are thinking of copying this crud.

But hey, I'm thinking there must be a better way to spend your tax dollars to fight crime, like maybe more cops, better wages for cops, and yes, more prisons.

How much do you want to bet that people behind paying thugs think mass incarceration is somehow evil? But if prisons are so bad, why do we freak out when an inmate escapes? Why have a manhunt? Run free, little guy.

The fact is, incarceration helped dramatically reduce violent crime since the 1990s. So much so, people are not questioning its value. That's the curse of success: When something works, you think you don't need it any more. Our generation didn't get the measles. Hooray, no more measles vaccines. That's how we are now with prisons. So instead, let's pay them off instead of locking them up. And while you're at it, pay me not to bite my nails and Dana not to bring up Jasper.

Heck, I'd pay someone never to hear this again.





GUILFOYLE: Aw. That's kind of cute.

GUTFELD: I know it is.

In fact, why not pay all of us not to do stuff that bugs you? It's just so much easier than policing, especially when you are footing the bill.

All right, Prosecutor Guilfoyle.

GUILFOYLE: Yes, it's a horrible -- horrible idea. Horrible, horrible

GUTFELD: I wasn't -- you didn't even know what I was going to ask you.

GUILFOYLE: It has to be...

GUTFELD: I was going to ask you about KARS-4-KIDS. You think it's a

GUILFOYLE: I love KARS-4-KIDS. You already know that we talk about it in
the Green Room.

GUTFELD: So why is it bad? They say it's lowering homicide rates. Is
that true?

GUILFOYLE: No, I don't believe this at all. I think this is crazy. It's
criminal welfare. Like what do you...

GUTFELD: It is criminal welfare.

GUILFOYLE: That's it. Like stun them, put them in jail. Three strikes,
stop and frisk. These things work. Incarceration for violent criminal
recidivists. That's a message, and it also has the churn effect.

So I don't understand this mentality at all. It goes along with, if we'd
only just pushed ISIS right along to the job fair, they would stop
beheading and crucifying people.

GUTFELD: You know, Dana, your last name's Perino. Is this no different
than, like, a protection racket? You pay criminals not to hurt you.

PERINO: I was just thinking that.

I was also wondering about, like, all of the parents that raise children to
be law-abiding citizens. They don't get any money?


PERINO: Why do all the bad people get money?

GUTFELD: I don't know.

PERINO: Talk about angry white people.


GUILFOYLE: It pays to be bad.

PERINO: The problem. The other thing is, is that the broken window
theory, we're going to talk about Juan's book in the next block.


PERINO: But one of the things is, is that that absolutely works. And it
wasn't just about murder. That was about from the beginning to the end,
like how to prevent crime from start to finish. That's not something that
-- they're actually starting at the finish line.


PERINO: Being criminals.


GUILFOYLE: Juan's a little sleepy.

WILLIAMS: I'm listening, and I was thinking, you know, angry white men?
What was that comment about?

PERINO: Well, I didn't mean it in a racial way.

WILLIAMS: Oh, oh, oh, oh. But anyway...

GUTFELD: It was a callback.

WILLIAMS: It was a callback?

GUTFELD: It was a callback to an earlier segment.


WILLIAMS: So here's what I was thinking. I personally find this crazy,
right? And I -- not only do I find it crazy. They're trying it in my home
town and where I live, in Washington D.C.

So the police chief says there's no evidence this works. And the mayor is
not behind it, but the city council says, yes, go for it.

Now, why is that? Because we've seen, and I think many American cities
have seen a rise in murders in the last year or so. Violent crimes at a
really lower level. But we've seen this rise. So the question is why
aren't they putting money into schools...


WILLIAMS: ... job training, things that we know actually work? I think
this is -- I agree with you. I don't think...

GUILFOYLE: We're rewarding bad behavior.

GUTFELD: Eric, what do you think?

BOLLING: You know, I'm the only one at the table, I like this idea with a
caveat. OK, so you want to pay them a -- what did they say, a thousand
dollars a month?

GUTFELD: Roughly or something. Yes.

BOLLING: If you don't murder someone, you continue to get it. I say give
it to them, but they have to sign -- these people have to sign their
appeals rights away. So if you get convicted of a homicide or a rape,
that's it. You're done. Whatever the conviction is, it stands, and you
don't get to go through the appeals process, which costs us billions upon

GUILFOYLE: Why do they get to commit crimes? Why do they get to be a

BOLLING: You're selling your appeals -- you're selling your appeals right
for the $1,000 a month. You know, it's a give and a take.

GUILFOYLE: Why don't you just convict them, put them away? Then you don't
pay them anything. Give them a bologna sandwich.

BOLLING: That's not the law.

WILLIAMS: That's what it costs you to put them away. It costs, like,
$30,000 a year.

PERINO: Some cities have saved money on doing innovative things, like Salt
Lake City pays the rent for homeless people that they -- are not willing to
go into a shelter, but if they find that they can actually get him into a
home, when they're in a home, they can actually get a productive life. So
they've actually felt like they've saved money with that program.


PERINO: And maybe this falls onto that theory.

BOLLING: You know, you can be on Death Row, I think, on average 13 years
before they administer justice. Well, sign that away. If you want this
1,000 bucks a month, sign it away.

GUTFELD: All right. Ahead -- oh, this is going to be fun -- Juan's new
book. If you haven't gotten it yet, you've got to get it. "We, The
People" was released today. So do -- so go buy a copy...

WILLIAMS: Yes, yes.

GUTFELD: ... and tell us about it when "The Five" returns.



ask ourselves if we still know the freedoms intended for us by the Founding
Fathers. If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to. This is
the last stand on Earth.


PERINO: President Reagan often warned about the consequences of America
straying from the vision our Founders intended. But has America lost its
way? Reagan, Thurgood Marshall, Eleanor Roosevelt, and many other modern-
day pioneers are featured in Juan's new book that is out today. It's
called "We, The People: The Modern-Day Figures Who Have Reshaped and
Affirmed the Founding Fathers' Vision of America." It's a fascinating
read, and trust me, you are going to want to get a copy.

Juan, congratulations on the book. I spent some time, I know all of us
have here. We got a copy last week from you. It's very broad in scope,
and you tell the history book, but you tell it through stories as you break
it down. I was curious as I was reading it: What did you want readers to
take away from it?

WILLIAMS: America's changing. I think we touched on that earlier in the
show when we talked about anxiety. People saying, "I feel like a stranger
in my country. Things are changing so quickly, demographically,
economically, politically." Even the automation that you were talking
about, Greg.

And so the question is, what are the roots of this change? You can think
about other periods in American history, like you know, industrialization,
westward expansion. Post-World War II suburbanization. Things change, but
things are changing now. And I think we're slow to acknowledge how much
change is taking place.

So I wanted to go back and look at the roots. Let's say immigration.
Where does all this immigration come from? Who changed the rules?

You go back and you look at the '65 immigration act, and you come to
President Kennedy and Ted Kennedy's brother and what they did.

Or you look at -- we were talking about crime in the last segment. You
think about crime is down, but we are so much more aggressive about
surveillance and censors and all that. Where did this come from?

And you know, this surprises a lot of people, but you come to a guy like
Bill Bratton, now the police commissioner here in New York. And when it
comes to President Reagan and talking about those kinds of ideals you just
heard them express, again, you look at the courts. You look at the current
argument over the nominee to replace Justice Scalia. And you see this
divide, right there in the group, say where's the roots of this divide.

You see that, in fact, President Reagan was trying to respond to the
Thurgood Marshalls, to the Bill Brenners (ph), the people who believe in a
living, changing Constitution. Because he said, you know, we've got to
stick to the values, the principles, the precepts in that Constitution.

PERINO: Anybody else got a question for Juan?

GUTFELD: I have a comment and a question. I'm always interested in how a
book is put together. And I looked at your cover, and I was interested in
why you chose those particular four people. Because I thought I had
somebody else you could have added to the cover. I don't know if they have
that there, if you can see it.

WILLIAMS: Yes, sure, so on the cover there, is Reagan. It's Billy Graham.
Wait, wait, you added somebody.

GUTFELD: Yes, I did.

WILLIAMS: Did you add you?

GUTFELD: Yes, I did.

GUILFOYLE: Yay, Juan gets it.

GUTFELD: But I do have -- I do have a question for you. Do you have any -
- you have been writing for many years, and what was interesting in how
somebody writes when they have another job. What's your schedule like?
How do you approach your work? And do you have any advice for writers?

GUILFOYLE: He didn't sit at the bar drinking.

WILLIAMS: You know what? I worked. You know what? I worked -- the one
thing that I admit, because I'm living here pretty much now, is that I had
a room set aside, and I had, like, two computers up, you know. One with a
time line, you know, I called it the chronologies of these things. And the
other one I'm working on, and of course I have the best -- but it's my
space where I come and I focus, and focus is the hardest thing. Focus, and
I -- in this...

GUTFELD: Do you listen to music?

WILLIAMS: No. Can't do that.

GUTFELD: See, I do.

WILLIAMS: you listen to music while you write?

GUTFELD: Yes, but it has to be instrumental, no lyrics.


GUTFELD: Because you don't do -- total silence?

WILLIAMS: Total silence, except what's going on in my head, which is

PERINO: What about you, Eric.

BOLLING: So the timing, by the way, congratulations on the timing. You're
smack dab in the middle of a heaving race on both sides, Republican and
Democrat. What can people do? They can read the book. Will it help them
decide who they want to vote for?

WILLIAMS: I think it will. You know why? I'm not sure that it would, you
know, change your perception if you're liberal or conservative. There are
all kinds of people in here. I mean, there's Ronald Reagan, but at the
same time, there's Eleanor Roosevelt, but what you do is you have a sense
of who we are as Americans, where we are at this moment. That's what I'm
trying to do. Give you a sense of it.

And understand how people have created change in the past. And created
change in a way that, you know, is an honor. It's a tribute to the
Founding Fathers, because the Constitution endures, our country endures.
But change happens, and it's getting involved and creating, shaping that
change. And I think voting, political involvement, deciding what you want
the future to be is critical. So I hope it does help people in that sense,

PERINO: Last word to you.

GUILFOYLE: Yes. Thanks. So given what in this, like, revolutionary
election cycle, primary process that we've seen, you know, it takes a long
time to write a book, and there's that period after we kind of sometimes
think, "Oh, I might have included this, or added something else." Did you
feel like that, especially what's going on now with the political climate?

WILLIAMS: You know what? I was thinking, especially, we have so many
discussions here about terrorism and the like. And I think if I had
another shot, I would go back and look at how the CIA, the National
Security Agency all of those things have come to be so large in terms of
our experience of American life.

So while the -- Bill Donovan, back with the OSS days, you know, World War
II, that's the story I would tell. Maybe I would talk about American
media. I didn't do it.


PERINO: There could be a sequel. Next book. Before that, you have to buy
this one. So please go to Amazon or Barnes and Noble and get yourself a
copy of "We, The People." It's a book you'll want to pass on to your
children, as well.

All right. "One More Thing" is up next.


BOLLING: Time for "One More Thing." Juan is first.

WILLIAMS: All right. There was a tremendous moment of drama last night in
the NCAA championship. Look at this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, it's Page...


WILLIAMS: Tied the game at 74, shot by Marcus Page, incredible. But then
even more drama from Villanova's Chris Jenkins.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Three seconds at mid court.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Gives it to Jenkins for the championship.


WILLIAMS: Oh, baby, that is basketball. That was wonderful.

But there's more to the story. Jenkins' story, he grew up in Maryland.
His family adopted him. It's the family of a young man named Nate Britt
who plays for the University of North Carolina. Villanova coach Jay Wright
went to recruit Britt but left with Jenkins, who sank the winning shot to
beat Britt's team. Who could have thunk that one up? Unbelievable.

PERINO: Great story. Eric.


GUILFOYLE: All right. So I want to do a little special tribute to a 12-
year-old German Shepherd, who has been honored with a medal after she was
injured and lost her leg while serving in Afghanistan.

Lucca is the name and completed more than 400 missions with the U.S. Marine
Corps and was presented with the prestigious Dickin Medal at Wellington
Barracks in London. So it's the highest award that an animal can achieve
for service. As I mentioned, she lost her leg. One of the soldiers there
applied a tourniquet, and now she's back with her original handler,
enjoying an incredible life. They said she's loyal and intelligent and an
amazing dog.


GUILFOYLE: And I have "O'Reilly."

BOLLING: Dogs are people, too. Oh, you have "O'Reilly." Dogs are people,

All right, Dana. You're up.

PERINO: All right. Last August HBO released a documentary. It was called
"Back on Board," and that detailed the life of Olympic diver Greg Louganis.
And it inspired this online petition for him to be featured on the cover of
a Wheaties box, something he'd never had a chance to do. So 43,000
supporters got that wish. The image of Louganis, 56 years old now, a four-
time Olympic gold medalist, will be on the boxes. And hurdler Edward Moses
and swimmer Janet Edwards are also going to appear on something called the
Wheaties Legends Series. So...

GUILFOYLE: Very nice.

BOLLING: Excellent.

PERINO: Eventually, he got it.

BOLLING: About time. About time.

Greg, you're up.

GUTFELD: Why does it always have to be athletes? I could be on the box,
life size.

PERINO: With your unicorn.

WILLIAMS: On the cover. You're on the cover of the book now.


GUTFELD: Greg's Nutrition Tips.


GUTFELD: All right. If you're going to go out to eat, never bite off more
than you can chew. Here is Jeremy Piven at a local restaurant, trying to
eat an actual cat.




GUTFELD: As you know this is very -- luckily, the cat was asleep or would
have taken a swipe at Mr. Piven, who clearly is famished, clearly also has
gained some weight since the failure of the "Entourage" movie.

GUILFOYLE: OK. Was this before or after the Mercury...

BOLLING: How did the story end?

GUTFELD: They got married and opened a bed and breakfast in Vermont.

BOLLING: Very good.

GUILFOYLE: Perfect. Making jam.

BOLLING: And we know who the senator is.


GUILFOYLE: What we all want to do.

GUTFELD: Bernie Sanders.

GUILFOYLE: I think he was trying to tickle him to wake him up.

BOLLING: All right. So everyone wants to know why the tie.


BOLLING: You want to know?


BOLLING: Actually, I had an orange tie on first. I came down, and Juan
was wearing the orange tie, so I had to go up and change it. I'm not going
to tell you. You're going to have to go on Facebook and Twitter. Go to my
Facebook and Twitter, and I've already posted why the tie. I'm curious.
Everyone has -- has a theory.

All right. That's it. Anyone else?

WILLIAMS: You're not going to tell us?

BOLLING: No. You've got to go on my Twitter. Check it out.

That's it. That's it for us. Never miss an episode of "The Five."
"Special Report" is up next. And stay here for all the election coverage
all night.

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