Will Wisconsin determine if GOP has contested convention?

42 Republican delegates up for grabs


This is a rush transcript from "The Five," April 4, 2016. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

KIMBERLY GUILFOYLE, CO-HOST: Hello, everyone, I'm Kimberly Guilfoyle along with Juan Williams, Eric Bolling, Dana Perino and Brian Kilmeade. It is 5 o'clock in New York City and this is the "The Five." It's Monday, April 4th, the eve of yet another pivotal showdown in this long and arduous fight for the GOP nomination. Wisconsin decides tomorrow, and the state could determine whether the republicans are headed to a contested convention. It's a battle around both Cruz and Trump, can't afford to lose. Kasich already admits he won't be winning it.


SEN. TED CRUZ, R-TEXAS, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And what we're seeing all across the state is an example really of what we're seeing across the country. We're seeing republicans unite. We're seeing republicans coming together with a spirit of unity. And the energy we're seeing here in Wisconsin is tremendously encouraging.

DONALD TRUMP, R-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If we do well here, folks, it's over. If we don't win here, it's not over, but wouldn't you like to take the credit in Wisconsin for ending it?


TRUMP: Give Wisconsin the credit for ending it, and then we could focus on Hillary, instead of these two guys.

GOV. JOHN KASICH, R-OHIO, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I'm up 14 points on Hillary in Wisconsin, and I'm going to lose in Wisconsin. OK? This is really unbelievable. Isn't it? How this whole process is going, but persevere, 38 percent of the people in Wisconsin, don't know who I am.


GUILFOYLE: It's quite interesting, that's why ratings are through the roof. So Eric, what do you make of it? Wisconsin's tomorrow pivotal could end some of this kind of disarray, but not necessarily looking like that is going to happen.

ERIC BOLLING, CO-HOST: I'm not sure that's right that Wisconsin is the end all, even if Donald Trump does win Wisconsin. Remember, you have those big states in New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania coming up in the northeast. And John Kasich, if he stays in, may get some of those delegates, and that will put a damper on Trump or Cruz ever getting -- I don't think Cruz is getting to 1237. There still the only likely -- I would say possible path to 1237 would be Trump, so he does do a lot better if he gets Wisconsin, and gets Wisconsin in a big way. But right now the polls have flip-flopped on that both ways. Trump was leading then Cruz was leading, the latest ones they have Trump back on top. But whatever, who knows where it's going to go. Wisconsin is important, though. Wisconsin is huge in other respects. Wisconsin has Scott Walker, who ran for president. Wisconsin has Paul Ryan who everyone thinks, if there's a contested convention and they play around with the rules in the rules committee, then they -- another party who's not running for president right now could be called, in maybe it's Paul Ryan, he could be the one that they're looking at. So Wisconsin has played a big role. Play -- it plays big role in prior primaries. Some would say it's the birth place of the Republican Party too, so all eyes in Wisconsin for now.

GUILFOYLE: All right. Dana Perino, what is your assessment. Give us your very best right now.

DANA PERINO,  CO-HOST: I think that's right. So the Trump had been on top in the polls early on in the contest, and then that's changed. And I think consistently all the polls show with Cruz with either a slight lead or a substantial one.

BOLLING: No, no, no. There's a new one out today that --

PERINO: That Reuters had one the Trump up.

BOLLING: . Trump back up -- yeah.

PERINO: OK so -- OK?

GUILFOYLE: Go ahead. I was just -- I was agreeing with Eric.


PERINO: Except for the Paul Ryan part. I think that everyone thinking that Paul Ryan is going to be running for president is not accurate, and I just think that there are a lot of people pushing that theme. He is not pushing it, in trying to try to tell people, I'm the umpire of the convention. He doesn't plan to run for president, doesn't plan to be recruited for it, and is not lobbying for it.

GUILFOYLE: And he's doing quite a fine job as the House speaker. I might say so myself. Hello, Brian.

BRIAN KILMEADE, GUEST CO-HOST: Nice to see you, Kimberly. I'm glad you're back from vacation.


KILMEADE: How long have you been gone, three, four weeks?

GUILFOYLE: Yes, exactly.

KILMEADE: What's going on?

GUILFOYLE: Didn't feel like that?

KILMEADE: It really did.

GUILFOYLE: It's all like that.

KILMEADE: I counted it every minute.


KILMEADE: A lot's changed and we had a time to dwell.


KILMEADE: We have to dwell looking up to Wisconsin. And after this, we're going to have two more weeks to dwell. So you're talking about momentum. So we're going to focus on Wisconsin, leading up to Wisconsin, and after Wisconsin, leading up to New York. I think there are few things, that memo that leaked out to me was very telling, when it comes out inside the very lean Trump camp that they are upset at the establishment, they are upset with how many times that they're being attacked. They seem to be doubling down and feeling as though they're playing the victim somewhat. And I also gonna was telling over the weekend where Donald Trump said, "Hey, you know what, if i could do it again, I wouldn't retweeted that image. If I could do it again, I would have answered the abortion question different. That's the first time we saw a reflective -- somewhat reflective candidate. Are you seeing some growth? I mean that's going to be the key. Are you seeing any change?

GUILFOYLE: All right. Juan, how did you see that particular moment?

JUAN WILLIAMS, CO-HOST: Which particular?

GUILFOYLE: What he's saying about retweeting and taking issue have done yet.

WILLIAMS: Oh, well I think that you know, we talked about this a little bit.

GUILFOYLE: Reflection.

WILLIAMS: . that I think it was a moment when you first time you saw Trump say, hey, I made a mistake there and back up a little bit, and that was different for Trump. But what I think is going on in Wisconsin is one; I think Paul Ryan's name might as well be on the ballot, because I think there are a lot of people in Wisconsin who like Paul Ryan, of course, he's the hometown hero. And then you see Trump go to Janesville, his hometown and take him on. And you see Ryan in Washington giving a speech, in which he said, "This campaign on the republican side, out of control. We don't need to be vulgar. We don't need to be rude to each other. That's not good politics, that doesn't win you votes, that doesn't win elections." So Ryan says he doesn't want it. He says he's not campaigning for it. But if you stop and think about how this -- the GOP establishment has lined up behind Cruz here. And I'm going, not only Scott Walker, I'm going to Jeb Bush. I'm going to Carly Fiorina. I could go and on. And the money that's coming against Trump in Wisconsin, they have focused --

KILMEADE: Club for growth as one.

WILLIAMS: Club for growth. And now, even the Planned Parenthood people are in there taking on --

BOLLING: Can I game that out?

WILLIAMS: Of course, go ahead, man.

BOLLING: So the GOP establishment gets behind Ted Cruz.

WILLIAMS: Yes, sir.

BOLLING: Because they don't want to get Trump to 1237, for what end is though? So they get to a brokered convention because they want Ted Cruz?


BOLLING: Of course not.

WILLIAMS: Of course. I'm sorry, I thought there really was.

BOLLING: But the rules right now say, unless you changed. And the rules right now and say.


BOLLING: . you need to win eight states with a majority.



BOLLING: . in order to be on the first ballot. So what they're hoping for is a second ballot, so they can nominate Kasich or Ryan.

WILLIAMS: Well Ryan -- I mean Boehner, John Boehner, the former speaker, who Ryan replaced has said, you know what, if the three guys running don't win 1237, then it's an open convention, and he wants Paul Ryan.

KILMEADE: Wow, interesting. I also think it is kind of interesting. And I think he could appreciate this thing is that whatever you think about the presidency of Barack Obama in '08, he was so organized, he had a great message. His camp was ready to go. They ran a better campaign. Ted Cruz is running the most organized campaign. He's stealing delegates. Today the story is he's back in Arizona trying to steal delegates. He's trying to grab Rubio's delegates. He's gonna go with Dakota's stealing delegates. He's playing the game. Donald Trump maybe got his wakeup call, let's see if he can catch up, but it is Cruz who is built to win.

BOLLING: Stealing delegates for a later vote. Now, could the first vote.


BOLLING: . he can't get them.

KILMEADE: He's preparing for a rainy day like today.

BOLLING: But here's the question.


BOLLING: All these delegates that have decided to go behind -- to get behind Ted Cruz, because they don't want Donald Trump. Will they stay with Ted Cruz on the second ballot or will they going to go to John Kasich or someone else who's nothing?

KILMEADE: The best chance he has is getting in there and telling them why you should stay with them. Making those delegates feel like they matter. You know he's got a plane, and he doesn't have a plane and a chopper, but he might be able to say, "Listen, this is who I am, I hope you're going to count on me. He's trying to plow the ground.

GUILFOYLE: Well they -- but they both have strategies, and in particular, you know Trump is actually hoping to recover from a rough week on the campaign trail. He acknowledged some missteps on Fox News Sunday and vowed that you're going to see a different side of him if he becomes the nominee.


TRUMP: Was this my best week, I guess not. I could have done without the retweet, et cetera, et cetera. But --

CHRIS WALLACE, HOST, "FOX NEWS SUNDAY": But I'm talking about --

TRUMP: I think I'm doing OK.

WALLACE: Any plans to lay off the personal attacks?

TRUMP: After I beat them, I'm going to be so presidential you're going to be so bored. You're going to say, this is the most boring human being I've ever interviewed.


GUILFOYLE: OK, so this is Trump.


GUILFOYLE: . with a different tune like we were discussing earlier.


GUILFOYLE: Kind of a little bit more reflective saying that he's going to have a different approach, attitude, perhaps, you know if he gets the nomination, and if in fact he wins the presidency. Dana.

PERINO: Well, it's very hard to make a -- you can't make a first impression over and over again. The impression has been made. There are some people that adore Donald Trump; they will go to the matt for him. They are always going to vote for him, no matter what. And there are others that have decided -- that they have made a judgment that they will never vote for him. Then there are others who was like, well, even if they were on the fence now, if you look at the polls, there were like -- I don't think so. I actually think that he should just be himself. And that actually for -- if you're looking for a nominee, just be who you are, and don't always think that you're going to be somebody else, if something happens.

KILMEADE: But Dana, don't you think you can be yourself and still have a Dana Perino working with you saying OK, you're about to go into Chris Matthews interview. Here's what to expect, Mr. President.

PERINO: Absolutely.

KILMEADE: Or Mr. Trump.

PERINO: Absolutely.

KILMEADE: So that's what I'm saying. If he is going to be himself, he could do it with communications people around him. Right now he went --

PERINO: Not always. Not at lot -- I mean, you can have great communications people, but it comes from the top, so you can prep in somebody for an interview, over and over again. But when they walk in there, that's them, it's not the communications people's fault. That is your.

KILMEADE: But I wouldn't blame.

PERINO: . support staff.

KILMEADE: But right now, if you listen to the way, if you read the story about what makes up Donald Trump's team of 94, compared to 760 for Hillary Clinton, it's too lean. I think he would have said -- he's the business expert, he's got to assess the situation. Yeah, I saved a lot of money, but I shouldn't be saving any money anymore. I have to get communications experts in with me, to brief me on things I couldn't possibly know.

WILLIAMS: And this is what's going on. Some of it you touched on earlier, Brian, which is he's brought in Paul Manafort, and why? Because he's now understands that there's a game --


WILLIAMS: An invisible game going on for those delegates. So he brought in someone who's an old wise man of Washington republican politics to play the game. He's even thinking about suing in Louisiana.

KILMEADE: Yeah. Yes, it's true.

WILLIAMS: Because somehow he wins Louisiana.


WILLIAMS: Cruz gets more delegates. He's saying, what's going with this thing?


WILLIAMS: So I was on ABC last -- yesterday, and they said --

KILMEADE: You did great, by the way. I watched it.

WILLIAMS: You're very kind. So they say worst week ever for Trump. Well, Barry Bennett number comes out and says, "That's spin from the establishment."


WILLIAMS: The media is part of the establishment that's anti-Trump, he makes the case. And it's both now, Trump and Cruz, that not only say Kasich should be out, they want to make sure, to Eric's point, that he's not on the ballot at the convention. So now it's everything is against Kasich. And Kasich, for his point, I love his quote. He said, "An open convention -- so cool."


WILLIAMS: That was so cool.

KILMEADE: And good for the kids.

WILLIAMS: It's so cool.

KILMEADE: It's good for the kids.

BOLLING: It's so why Cruz who wants Kasich out. Cruz needs Kasich in there. It's just to ensure that.


BOLLING: . he gets some any sort of proportional delegates.

WILLIAMS: He thinks he's losing votes in Wisconsin to Kasich.

BOLLING: Yeah, OK. But he needs him go down the road.

GUILFOYLE: But beyond that, yeah.


BOLLING: . to make sure that Trump doesn't get to 1,237. I also watch the every single Sunday show, this weekend. I saw you, you did a great job. We the people, check out his book. It was -- very fascinating to me to see Reince Priebus on.

KILMEADE: Every channel.

BOLLING: . at every single channel, every single one.

KILMEADE: Yeah, everyone.

WILLIAMS: Everyone.

BOLLING: Explaining this rules saying, which I'm not sure I even buy what they're selling us right now. I have -- I've read these rules, I have them right here. I read them four times. I'm still trying to work --

KILMEADE: They're the old rules anyway. They're gonna rewrite the rules.

BOLLING: Yeah. Well, they can. The Rule 42 says.


BOLLING: . at rules 26 through 42 are temporary, which means they can rewrite them. Guess where the rule about the delegates falls? Rule 42, Rule 40 of 42. So it's temporary -- whatever. Here's a point. It struck me as this. I see two parties, the GOP establishment and the Donald Trump party. Instead of one party, this stage in the game and any other race, the party that was -- the guy who didn't -- you're backing a candidate who's not the nominee or going to be the nominee, you jump in line, you form in line because you want to take on Hillary Clinton, right?

GUILFOYLE: Yeah. You're right.

WILLIAMS: But these report --

BOLLING: This is a bifurcated Republican Party right now.

WILLIAMS: Yes, it's actually. But currently --

BOLLING: And it's horrible to its part.

WILLIAMS: Yes. But wait a minute, wait a minute. I think it's like close to three quarters of republicans aren't voting for Trump, right?

BOLLING: Well, that would make 98 percent of mark voting for Cruz, 98 percent of mark voting for Kasich. It's the same.


GUILFOYLE: But the end result is what? All this division and fracturing is doing one thing, and it's serving to make sure that Hillary Clinton is the next.

BOLLING: Hillary. Correct.

GUILFOYLE: . president of the United States.

BOLLING: Correct.

GUILFOYLE: So think about that, if you can, at night, if you're not frightened and be terrified, like it scares me.

KILMEADE: All right.

GUILFOYLE: OK. Next, the democratic battle for Wisconsin, Hillary Clinton has another tough fight ahead of her tomorrow. She's setting up for attacks against Sanders as she reveals she's not taking the nomination for granted. Stay with us.


PERINO: Hillary Clinton's bracing for another tough fight tomorrow in Wisconsin. She's trailing Sanders by three points there, according to the RealClearPolitics average. And in two weeks, she's going to face Sanders in her home state of New York, where she fares better, ahead by about 11 points. Although Clinton has the upper hand with delegates, she's lost five of the last six contests to Sanders, so she knows that the battle goes on.


HILLARY CLINTON, D-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I am going to do everything I can to win in as many places as possible. We have a system, and I'm very confident that I will be the nominee, but I'm not taking anything or any place or anyone for granted.



PERINO: The secretary is continuing to push back against Sanders so-called lies about her record on fossil fuels and other issues.


CLINTON: When people make these kinds of claims, which now I think have been debunked. Actually, "The Washington Post" said three Pinocchio's, "New York Times" also analyze. And other independent analysts have said that they are misrepresenting my record. I just not gonna -- I feel sorry sometimes for the young people who, you know, believe this. They don't do their own research. And I'm glad that we now can point to reliable independent analysis to say, no, it's just not true.


PERINO: Brian, fair to say that Hillary Clinton did not expect that in -- going into April into Wisconsin that she was still going to have a Bernie Sanders problem. But it seems like it's a significant one.

KILMEADE: Dana, she's ticked off if you listen to her speeches. Have you saw what happened with the blowup on that line? She has saying to herself, how did I have this happen. I got this huge organization. I game plan this entire thing out. And she finally is going at Bernie Sanders where the republicans are going at themselves. And they should say, OK, what do I have in an opponent? 74-years-old became a democrat yesterday, and has an economic program that's totally not feasible. And we have -- what promising free college to people, we can possibly fulfill that. Can you possibly tell me how you plan on giving this next generation everything for free?


KILMEADE: While not raising taxes, while taking 8 out of every 10 dollars? She's finally picking at the weak parts of his candidacy, taking it seriously.

PERINO: They don't want to hear that message. I mean, it's something like 80 percent of young people, Eric, Juan, are voting for Sanders over Hillary Clinton. If you take all the average of the exit polls and he raised $44 million in March, so he out raised her by $15 million end of last month.

BOLLING: He out raised her. He is liked by young people. He's the, you know, he's the SNL star. He's got something going on. I just don't think that -- it's in the books where -- I think the books are cooked for her, because it's the mechanism.


BOLLING: It's the apparatus, the infrastructure. She's got a whole lockdown.

KILMEADE: The super delegates.

BOLLING: As super delegates --

GUILFOYLE: But somehow they think he's like groovy hipster socialist.

BOLLING: And they'll come, they'll come back to the northeast, because she's going to have a lot of, you know, a lot of influence in the northeast. Look, it is fun to watch. The whole thing is fun to watch on both sides. You get -- Sanders is a likeable guy. You like Bernie Sanders.

GUILFOYLE: That he's trying to portray him as lion Bernie --

BOLLING: I wish lion Bernie was their nominee, because there will be not a socialist president in America.

GUILFOYLE: Yeah. And all the Saturday nights are big, right? On Saturday Night Live you'll be able to see all the skid.

KILMEADE: Oh, yes. You will know who you can get.

GUILFOYLE: But people like him. All you get if you like him, like I said, oh, I know, he seems kind of nice guy. Yeah, OK, great. So you know what he stands for, and you're fine with having like Venezuela style socialism and milking that toilet paper and taking home about, like a buck out of every 10 that you make. That's cool, right? (inaudible) -- Yeah.

KILMEADE: This orange -- to have orange juice --

BOLLING: Nine out of every 10. You keep a bulk of your own.

GUILFOYLE: No. That's what I said, you take home only $1.

BOLLING: Oh, it was good.

PERINO: But Juan --


PERINO: We talk about GOP divisions a lot. But what about within the Democratic Party, is there a worry that if and when Bernie Sanders does not become the nominee, that his voters have been very energize in their primary to stay home in the generals?

WILLIAMS: Yeah. Well, in fact, that's what the polls show, there's a large percentage about a third, according to Wall Street Journal. But then I saw another poll the other day that showed that again, similar margin of people who are Bernie or bust. If it was not Bernie, I'm not playing, because they don't, they don't feel. According to the analysis of the polls, they don't feel that Hillary Clinton is anything but a status quo candidate. She would be just an ordinary average president. They see Sanders, and he could use this word as revolutionary.


GUILFOYLE: Versus an establishment Hillary Clinton.

WILLIAMS: He wants (inaudible) the system, that he thinks it's weighed in against -- especially young people who are burdened by college costs, college debt. You know, living in the parents -- but they see Bernie as their guy. Now the thing that you said, that just jumps out at me, unbelievable, how much money? I mean, supposedly, Bernie Sanders is like, you know, just hanging in there. No, $44 million in one month.

PERINO: In fact, people started -- some democrats started asking him if he was going to start using some of that money to help them in their House Senate races.

WILLIAMS: Well, that's the thing. That's what -- because to your point Brian, that he -- she is now saying, this guy is not even a democrat. I've been a lifelong democrat.

KILMEADE: It's true.

WILLIAMS: I'll campaign for democrats. I'll raise money for democrats. Bernie has never said anything like that.

GUILFOYLE: She's got to start like, you know, crushing him. This is -- it's enough already. It's not amusing.

KILMEADE: You know who said that Bill Clinton, he's saying it was such a huge mistake not to crush him early.


KILMEADE: They didn't take him seriously. And New York Times, were yesterday talked about how the Sanders campaign is kicking themselves for not getting off to a better start. As if they didn't know, they get this close.

PERINO: They should have talked about her darn e-mails. That would help.


KILMEADE: Still --

PERINO: They actually --

KILMEADE: Still has not brought it up.

PERINO: And they're also having a big -- they're having a debate over a debate. Take a look.


SEN. BERNIE SANDERS, I-VT., PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Look, she has proposed three dates, we have proposed four dates. She has a difficult schedule. I've got a difficult schedule. You know, one of the dates proposed was the night of the NCAA finals, didn't make sense to me. But I think that we will reach an agreement. People of New York deserve to hear us discussing the important issues, facing that state, and facing the country. I suspect it will work out.

HILLARY: We offered dates which they refused. You offered -- GMA offered a debate during GMA on Friday the 15th, I'll be there. I think it's a great opportunity to reach an audience that may not always be able because of other obligations to tune to debate. I want to debate, and I'm confident that we can work out a time to do that.


PERINO: So Eric, when they're debating about a debate, what are they really fighting about?

BOLLING: I don't think either of them wants to do it. I don't think Hillary wants to do it and they're both -- they probably don't want to do it, right? So they going to say, oh, I have a date and you have the date, it didn't line up with the NCAA, and what now? But don't forget, there's 14 days between Wisconsin and New York. You have 14 days to pick one hour -- let's call it two hours max. And get this thing; the people of New York do deserve to hear it. But I will tell you, I don't really like the democrat stuff, I still watch it. I think that one, before New York would be fantastic with all the "wall Street" stuffs, with all the Goldman Sachs stuff, with all the millionaires.


BOLLING: . and billionaires on Bernie, it will be great.

KILMEADE: Chuck Todd totally let her off the hook yesterday. When Chuck said, "Why do you release your transcript?" And she's like, "I'm really great against "Wall Street," I'm good." Excuse me. Chuck Todd would have been indefatigable if it was Trump or Cruz.

GUILFOYLE: Good work.

KILMEADE: He let it go.

WILLIAMS: All right.

KILMEADE: He let it go, actually.

WILLIAMS: Let's just say this that I know Kimberly thinks the world of Bernie Sanders, you say he's such a wonderful guy, and we here, at this table, at "The Five" will put you next to Kimberly Guilfoyle, you can sit next to Kimberly.


WILLIAMS: We want you on the set. And also, I'm going to say --

GUILFOYLE: So you're inviting him to "The Five?"

WILLIAMS: Absolutely.

GUILFOYLE: Where are you sitting? Right here --

WILLIAMS: No, no, I'll protect you. But I will let him sit here, because (inaudible). And then, Hillary Clinton can sit right next to Eric Bolling. That's right.


WILLIAMS: You're like --

BOLLING: On a different day, or the same day?

WILLIAMS: The same day if you want. We all have a debate here on "The Five."

BOLLING: "The Five" debate.

GUILFOYLE: Juan just went rogue.


WILLIAMS: No, no, no. I think --

KILMEADE: It's an offer.

WILLIAMS: It's a different thing.

KILMEADE: It's an offer.

WILLIAMS: What do you think about --?

PERINO: I think having them would be great.


PERINO: And if -- I hope that they would take us up on it. I mean, Bernie Sanders.

KILMEADE: Brooklyn boy.

PERINO: . gets a lot of love at this table.

KILMEADE: Yeah. He's a Brooklyn boy.


KILMEADE: He wants this debate.

WILLIAMS: He said he loves the people at this table, but don't like Hillary.


PERINO: All right, we're going to move on. Hillary Clinton believes in constitutional rights for all, but that doesn't extend to babies not yet born. Hear her comments over the weekend that stirred up both sides of the abortion debate next.


BOLLING: According to Hillary Clinton, she's America's champion for human rights.


CLINTON: We have to keep up with every fiber of our being, the argument for the campaign for human rights, human rights as women's rights.


CLINTON: Human rights as gay rights, human rights as workers' rights, human rights as voting rights, human rights across the board for every single American.



BOLLING: Hmm, but not all Americans have rights according to Hillary -- the unborn don't.


CLINTON: Well, under our laws, currently, that is not something that exists. The unborn person doesn't have constitutional rights. Now -- it doesn't mean that you don't do everything possible to try to fulfill your obligations, but it -- it does not include sacrificing the woman's right to make decisions. And I think that's an important distinction that under Roe v. Wade, we've had enshrined under our constitution.


BOLLING: While trying to take down Trump for his abortion comments, Clinton revealed she doesn't believe children in the womb have any right at all, and Bernie Sanders agrees with her.


SANDERS: I believe that it is an outrage that Republicans who tell us how much they hate the government now want to tell every American -- every American woman what she can and cannot do with her body. And I do agree with the secretary. I don't believe there's any constitutional protection for the unborn.


BOLLING: Dana, your thoughts on -- I mean, is she going to have to clarify what she was saying?

PERINO: Well, I don't think so, but she should be asked a different question.

GUILFOYLE: What is it?

PERINO: Technically, she's correct that under the law as it is, that an unborn person doesn't have those rights. Now, there's been moves to try to change that, and the question she should be asked, in particular, is about late-term abortion. Because science now says that about 22 to 23 weeks of pregnancy, that the baby then should be able to survive on its own.

The issue on late-term or partial-birth abortion has been whether or not you think that that should be illegal, now that science tells us that that unborn fetus, that actually could survive outside of the womb, should that have constitutional rights? I believe that it should.

And I -- what Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton are trying to do is basically, unfortunately, Donald Trump's comments last week, played into this liberal stereotype about conservatives, that they basically want to tell women, you're no longer going to be able to have legal abortions.

When the pro-life movement, for decades, have been trying to say, we don't want to punish women. We want to have a protection of life from birth to natural death. That is what a culture of life is supposed to mean.

But the issue on the table for all Democrats I think she should be uncomfortable with, and Bernie Sanders should be, is about late-term abortion. That is the issue that's been on -- been debated on Capitol Hill. It's come close to passing in the Senate, and I think that they should be asked about that at the next debate and grilled on it.

BOLLING: K.G., Dana points out from birth to natural death. Natural death is defined as when the heart stops and there's no brain activity, right?


BOLLING: And that birth doesn't -- life doesn't -- if that's death, why isn't life determined by when there's a heartbeat and there's brain activity?

GUILFOYLE: Well, you're talking to someone who believes that -- that it should, in fact. And I mean, and how can you not, in good conscience, evaluate this, based honestly, based on the current state of medicine and science and honor life. You know, you honor people who are walking around outside, et cetera. What about, you know, babies in the womb that, if then they leave the womb, they're able to survive on their own?


GUILFOYLE: How is this any kind of distinction that makes sense morally, ethically, and now I believe, yes, the challenge should be legal.

KILMEADE: You know, John Paul Horace (ph) said that, which -- he heard they're equal to Donald Trump's gaffes for the pro -- for the pro-choice community. And basically, she used the wrong term. The right terms are fetus and embryo. Don't make it seem real. Don't say the word "unborn."

And also, she offered some -- opened up some restrictions for third trimester, and we're not into that. The pro-choice are saying, "You've got to be kidding me. We're really upset with her." I think as a grandmother, you see so many sonograms and you think to yourself, "Man, I don't know if, with a clear conscience, how long I can keep this school of thought."

PERINO: That's true. Great point.

WILLIAMS: First, the whole thing was that she used the term "person" -- all right -- and attached "person" to a fetus. And that for the -- for the people who are pro-choice or pro-abortion in this country is breaking with their language and their logic in just the way that Trump did last week.

BOLLING: God forbid you call a fetus a person. Don't -- don't attach too much emotion and then thought to it. That's what's going on.

WILLIAMS: No, no, no. This is about a semantic battle here. This is about very political stuff.

GUILFOYLE: But they're playing semantic gymnastics with life.

PERINO: I think it's actually -- I think it's actually moral. And it's also legalistic. For example, in many states, if you -- let's say there's a pregnant woman. She's driving down the road. Let's say she's four months pregnant. She's hit by a drunk driver, and both of them die, the mother and the baby. Then that criminal that hit them is actually charged with both murders, doesn't matter how old that baby is. OK?

So there are -- there are legal cases to be made, when you want to punish somebody for a DUI that kills two people.

GUILFOYLE: Two lives.

PERINO: So -- and that would, I think, say in law, there is a case to be made that that is a life.

WILLIAMS: What about...

GUILFOYLE: You could say that's legal precedent.

WILLIAMS: Trump asked, is abortion murder, and he said, "I don't think so." So I mean, I'm thinking to myself, he's doubled down in a very odd way for someone who is running for the Republican nomination.

So should Hillary Clinton correct herself on this?

WILLIAMS: From whose perspective? From the left or the right?

PERINO: The right.

WILLIAMS: Obviously, people like Dana would have her say that, you know what, I think a fetus is a person.

KILMEADE: I think she'd rather talk about e-mails.

PERINO: I think it's very hard for a grandmother -- I think it's very hard for a grandmother of one and soon to be another, for her to say that is an embryo or a fetus. I don't...

GUILFOYLE: And good for her. It should be hard to say. It should be hard to be in office and know what you know, see what you've seen with your own grandchild and another one on the way.

WILLIAMS: The politics of America.

GUILFOYLE: Honor life.

WILLIAMS: About abortion, it's a wedge issue.

PERINO: It's a moral issue.

BOLLING: All right. We're going to leave it all there.

We all known our president can't pull himself to say the words "Islamic terrorism." France's president had no problem saying it last week. But did the White House intentionally try to keep the public from hearing it?  The incriminating evidence, coming up.



WILLIAMS: President Obama's very careful when he refers to Muslim terror attacks, refraining from linking Islam to the atrocities. But leaders of other nations, like France's president, Francois Hollande. While he was in Washington last week, he did just that. However, you didn't hear him say it on a video the White House posted of his remarks.


FRANCOIS HOLLANDE, PRESIDENT OF FRANCE (through translator): We also were aware the roots of terrorism.



WILLIAMS: Now, this is what Hollande actually said.


HOLLANDE (through translator): But we also were aware the roots of terrorism, Islamist terrorism is in Syria and in Iraq.


WILLIAMS: You heard that right, he used the phrase "Islamist terrorism."

The White House initially posted the video without the edits, but then took it down and uploaded it again with the interpreter's voice muted. It blames a technical error for the word omission, and posted it for a third time, this time with Hollande's full comments.

Now, as you can imagine, some of my pals here think that was intentional.  What do you say, Eric?

BOLLING: It was exactly the moment -- it dropped out exactly the word "Islamist terrorism"...


BOLLING: ... was spoken and interpreted -- interpreted, but it dropped out that very second. Then they posted it without any sort of clarification that there was a pause in the translation. And then after the backlash, not until there was backlash -- if they were caught...

GUILFOYLE: After they were caught.

HOLLANDE: They were caught. Then they said, "Oh, here's the full tape.  Sorry we had a technical issue." I don't buy that.

GUILFOYLE: Lying. Lying.

WILLIAMS: K.G., but the transcript that they put out did have it in it.  The transcript always had it.

GUILFOYLE: I mean really, Juan. Come on. Good job. Good job, Juan, good job. I'm happy for you to try and defend them.

WILLIAMS: I'm just saying...

GUILFOYLE: People figured it out. OK?

WILLIAMS: I'm not trying to defend them. I'm simply saying their point was, look, if you read the transcript it's always been in there. I think their defense would have been, you know, this president and this White House don't use that phrase. You're in America. This is our -- they didn't say that. They don't.

GUILFOYLE: There's no excuse to cover it up. OK? Because they can say that, OK, we had the transcript there, if people like who were their supporters, like you. But we really know what happened here. Let's be honest. And they don't want President Obama to look weak and indecisive and sort of fickle as it relates to terrorism, because he won't say...

WILLIAMS: So you think Obama actually was in the edit room?

KILMEADE: I'm going to do it first. I'm going to defer to Dana. Tell me how this works. Is it possible that this is a coincidence? How does it work when a foreign leader comes to visit and at the end of a conference -- Is there the man or woman power to edit something out and post something like that?

PERINO: I think that this White House has actually done something different. I don't believe that we would post the video. I don't -- I don't know how that works, actually. They've upgraded communications in some ways there, because they had to with the new time.

I guess it's conceivable that such an incredible coincidence could happen.  And I can imagine, the press secretary's office, you get the first call, and you find out -- you have to call somebody, did we just edit Hollande's statement? Like, who does this? So it's not the press office that would have done it, in my opinion. If it would have been somewhere, somebody else. It does look a little suspicious, but it's just that word, and it's -- there's no other technical glitches throughout.

WILLIAMS: Yes, I don't see how you get away. The thing is, you have just played into the hands of everyone who said, you know, "This president refuses to say Islamic terrorism exists in the world." I know he has a reason for it, which is he doesn't want to alienate our Muslim allies around the White House. He doesn't want to -- he doesn't want to convey the impression that the United States is involved in a Western world against Islam.

GUILFOYLE: You edit world leaders that have the courage to tell the truth?

KILMEADE: But if he blamed global -- if he blamed global warming for the problem with terror, that would have been edited back to its original Latin.

WILLIAMS: It would have been put in?

KILMEADE: Absolutely. And emphasize. What about take it down. (ph)

WILLIAMS: What about if Cruz had said we should patrol Muslim neighborhoods? You know, what if Trump had said ban all Muslims from coming in the country? They would have put that up in large numbers.

KILMEADE: Absolutely. The Donald Trump question...

BOLLING: What does a liberal think happened?

WILLIAMS: I don't know what happened.

GUILFOYLE: He thinks it's suspicious.

WILLIAMS: Yes, of course it's -- I'm not blind. I think it's very suspicious. I think it's a legitimate topic. I think they played into the hands of everybody who wants to be reminded. You know, I'm so mad that Obama won't say, "Islamic terrorism."

PERINO: You never ever edit a transcript or a video of a public meeting, ever.

GUILFOYLE: Epic fail. Epic fail.

PERINO: It happened one time with Tony Snow. It's actually a funny story.  Tony Snow meant to say "thank you" to several people in the office one day.  And this is at a press briefing, and he forgets one guy that's on our team.  OK? And he's mortified, because he realizes it afterwards.

And he, unbeknownst to me, calls the transcription people and says, "Hey, could you add his name back into the transcript?" Comes out a couple hours later. Sure enough, a reporter says, "Wait. He didn't mention so and so, because that guy was mad." So -- and it became this whole big issue. And the question was, does the White House edit transcripts? And so the rule is, don't ever do it.

WILLIAMS: Yes, leave it alone.

OK. Ahead, there were dueling music awards shows on TV last night. Which one were you watching? The highlights from the ACM and the IHeartRadio Awards next on "The Five."



KILMEADE: That is Dana's theme. That is her motto. Drink all day, party all night.

Dierks Bentley performing at the Academy of Country Music Awards in Las Vegas. It was a bonanza also for music lovers last night, because they also had the IHeartRadio Awards. They were from Los Angeles. We're going to get to those highlights in just a moment.

But first, let's talk country. Blake Shelton co-hosted the awards at the last four ACM's with Luke Bryant. Well, this year, Bentley got the gig.  Shelton found a way, though, to steal his thunder early on.


LUKE BRYAN, COUNTRY MUSIC STAR: I'm going to bring you out as my new co- host, here we go.  

My new co-host, Dierks Bentley!

BLAKE SHELTER, COUNTRY MUSIC STAR: Good luck tonight, boys. He's all yours.

BRYAN: You're done now.

Bluke is over.


BRYAN: From now on it's Lierks. Luke and Dierks. Lierks.


PERINO: Lierks.

KILMEADE: That was only kidding. That was really cool, though, right?  Let me tell you, I felt as though Luke Bryan was legitimately surprised.

PERINO: By the Blake Shelton thing? I think so, too.

I like the show. One of the things that's great about the ACMs is that there's a lot of music. They keep the acceptance speeches really short.  There's no politics. It's just a good show.

KILMEADE: I think this is the most -- it's so hard to do these shows and be natural, Eric. These guys are -- you feel like you get to know these guys.

PERINO: But they're friends.

KILMEADE: I feel like they know the audience; they know the viewers. They know each other.

BOLLING: Was there a sub-theme going on with that, too? Didn't Shelton's ex-wife start hanging out with...?

KILMEADE: Miranda -- yes, Miranda Lambert.

BOLLING: I don't know the story.

KILMEADE: Miranda Lambert and Blake Shelton.

PERINO: They've all been -- I think they've all been friends for a long time.

BOLLING: OK. Because they seem to get along well.

I'm going to be honest with you. I was watching "Billions"...

PERINO: I love it.

BOLLING: "The Walking Dead" mid-season finale.

KILMEADE: You're going to be no help to me.

BOLLING: Not much.

KILMEADE: All right, thanks.

GUILFOYLE: I can discuss the Trump town hall.

KILMEADE: Here we go. This is the -- this is the story. Chris Stapleton, at 37 years old, has been a five-month wonder. This guy walked away with four awards for every blue-collar person who put in the time to write music but never had the fame? You could be happy for Chris Stapleton. Did you get that sense last night?

PERINO: You want me to answer for you, Juan?


GUILFOYLE: Look at Juan.

KILMEADE: OK. I got it. I think it's great. All right. Let's go to the IHeart Awards. That's where we really...

GUILFOYLE: Juan looks confused. Again.

KILMEADE: OK, here's what IHeart Awards. Congratulations, Chris Stapleton, Chris. I appreciate what you did. Congratulations on the beard. You could be on "Duck Dynasty." Now, the IHeartRadio Awards, Taylor Swift, what a stunner. Does she have any room left on her mantel for awards?

PERINO: She's America's sweetheart. She wins everything. She's a winner.

KILMEADE: And evidently, her boyfriend, who's a dancer. I never would have thought they'd...

BOLLING: No, he's a D.J. He's a D.J.

GUILFOYLE: This is the worst segment ever.

KILMEADE: No, it says "dancer." But he won something, too. Right. But his real name is Adam.

GUILFOYLE: No, this is Brian into it. He's just a little confused.

KILMEADE: I am into it. Justin Bieber won best male artist.

BOLLING: New hair. Best new hair.

KILMEADE: Right. The worst new hair.

BOLLING: I don't think it's been well-accepted.

GUILFOYLE: This isn't going well.

KILMEADE: This is like me in a singles bar. No one's making eye contact.  Nobody's -- nobody's even looking up -- usually, people are, like, on the edge of their seats to talk.

GUILFOYLE: Next thing you know, Miley Cyrus is going to have that hairdo.

BOLLING: We talked about that this week, whether white young boys, whether he should be wearing dreads or not or whether it's cultural appropriation.  So Justin Bieber is being accused of cultural appropriation. He's got dreads.

WILLIAMS: I think that's the silliest thing. I just -- there's so many -- so much more that you want to talk about. Clearly -- clearly, I think when we talk, this yesterday. If you talk about cultural appropriation, it's the fact that hip-hop is so popular with young white guys.


WILLIAM: But anyway, you know what? I am so (UNINTELLIGIBLE) on this topic, I must tell you. So I was amazed to see that I did know one song.  It says here that the song of the year at the IHeart Awards was "Hello."  And I know that song.

My grandchildren sing that song.

KILMEADE: I actually, in telepathy -- I actually thought I was going to end up doing the segment. I watched the awards. Despite how the...

GUILFOYLE: We've got to go.

KILMEADE: Thanks so much. Yes. Juan started talking. "One More Thing" is next.

WILLIAMS: I know it was me.

KILMEADE: It was you.


GUILFOYLE: It's time now for "One More Thing."

Hi. OK, Eric. Look at my Chihuahua story, it's so cute. But I'm not first.

BOLLING: Very quickly, check it out. Here's a full screen tonight. Big primetime lineup. All three of the GOP candidates and Bill O'Reilly's back in the saddle again. So make sure you keep it right here all night, on Fox News.

OK, my "One More Thing." Police are being gunned down at a rate not seen since the 1990s. More cops have been killed by guns this year than maybe if we go back 20, 25 years. That's why this is so important. Check out these two kids, Aidan and Nathan, in Lee's Summit, Missouri, with a lemonade stand to benefit cops. Listen.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They protect us. Every single one of us. And if we didn't have them, our world would be apocalyptic.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The police have done so much for us, and they have nothing in return. They just do it, because that's their job. And they deserve a treat.



BOLLING: We should all have Aidan and Nathan's point of view on cops.

GUILFOYLE: And great parents, I'm sure, raising them in the right way, to appreciate that level of public service and devotion.

All right. What do you got, Juan?

WILLIAMS: Forty-eight years ago, today, April 4, 1968, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. shot and killed in Memphis. James Earl Ray was sentenced for the assassination, 99 years in jail. He died in 1998.

Now, when the sad anniversary comes up, I always recall that the day before he was killed, Dr. King gave a prophetic speech on race, in which he said difficult days were ahead in American race relations, but he said God had taken him to the mountain top, and he'd seen the promised land. And he went on to say -- "and I've looked over and I've seen, even though I may not get there with you, but I want you to know that tonight we as a people, we as Americans will get there."

GUILFOYLE: Thank you for that, Juan. Dana.

PERINO: All right. Real quickly. Greg Murray has created something really fun. It's called For the Love of Peanut Butter. Basically, he gives peanut butter to all these dogs and he takes these pictures of them.  And they're trying -- it's like all these portraits. He's done over 50 mutts. You can check it out at For the Love of Peanut Butter. That's Greg Murray. It's really cute and fun. You can do it with your own dog at home.

BOLLING: So cool.

GUILFOYLE: Aww. I should have done that as "Kimberly's Food Court" and eating peanut butter.

Fine, whatever. It's my turn.

Chihuahua, let's roll this. This is the cutest thing you've ever seen in your life. So this little Chihuahua is in animal custody after eating peanut butter and leading police on a chase -- I'm kidding -- across the Oakland/San Francisco Bay Bridge. So the CHIP there said, he led us on quite a chase. Look at him. Look at him go. And he's in custody now.

KILMEADE: That's awesome, but I have the most important "One More Thing."  Tomorrow's going to be the big day, but it's available today. "We, The People" is out. It's Juan Williams' brand-new book. It's extremely important. I think you're going to be on "Fox & Friends" tomorrow...

WILLIAMS: I am, I am.

KILMEADE: ... talking about it. And it's bringing new life to the most important people in America in this generation, from Thurgood Marshall to what he did all the way to -- even with Ronald Reagan.

WILLIAMS: Oh, yes. You have a new Mount Rushmore, with Billy Graham and Ronald Reagan, Eleanor Roosevelt...

GUILFOYLE: Bye, Juan. Bye.

KILMEADE: This is not only a good book. It's an important book.

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