Europe's counterterrorism efforts criticized after attacks; Former jihadist on how terror recruitment has changed

'Defeating Jihad' author Dr. Sebastian Gorka warns of 'hotbeds of radicalization' on 'The Kelly File'


This is a rush transcript from "Kelly File," March 25, 2016. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

SANDRA SMITH, FOX NEWS HOST:  Breaking tonight.  A series of new raids, arrests, and more heartbreak in the aftermath of the Brussels' attack.  

Welcome to "The Kelly File." I'm Sandra Smith in for Megyn Kelly.  Just hours ago we got word from the State Department that two more Americans were among those killed in this week's attacks.  This is in addition to the brother and sister who lived in New York that we first told you about last night.  The news coming as we learn U.S. Special-Ops forces have conducted a daring raid inside Syria and they have killed ISIS' second in command.  A U.S. official tells FOX News the Brussels attack prompted this raid.  

Meanwhile, in Europe Belgian authorities have conducted a series of raids across Brussels today, detaining three people.  One of them seen here on amateur video, on the ground near the attacks.  He reportedly had been shot in the leg.  A bomb disposal robot moves in to retrieve his bag before officers drag him away.  

Also tonight, there are still questions about the location of two possible suspects from Tuesday's attack.  The so-called man in white at the airport, and another man who was spotted at the metro station just before the blast.  You see him on the right of your screen in a sketch.  

We begin with Mike Tobin reporting tonight from Brussels at the location of one of today's raids.  Mike?

MIKE TOBIN, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT:  Hello, Sandra.  The mayor of this Schaarbeek municipality says the federal prosecutors had specific information on the individual taken down here.  It was immediate information and they needed to act fast.  I'll show you the aftermath of what happened.  You can see now the broken glass and a little bit of crime tape that was up.  This is where that individual was shot in the leg.  We know from the video that when he was shot, he was on the ground, there was a little girl with him.  That little girl needed to be coaxed away by police with their weapons at the ready.  

Ultimately they moved in with a bomb robot.  As you mentioned, he had a bag.  We have information now that there were explosives in that particular bag.  The information for this raid, according to sources generated from the raids in the Paris suburbs last night.  In that particular raid, an individual named Rada Cricket (ph) was taken down.  He's got a history here in Belgium.  He was convicted last July of recruiting fighters for ISIS.  A bomb was taken from his residence there at the ready.  The components of that bomb nearly identical to the components found in what was called the bomb factory just blocks away from where I am now.  

All of it part of a flurry of activity.  Around Brussels, there were three police raids last night.  Six people taken into custody.  Today, we know of four raids around Brussels.  Three people taken into custody for questioning.  Two of them shot in the leg.  The French President Francois Hollande says this is a terror network, but he says this particular network is nearly dismantled -- Sandra.

SMITH:  All right.  Mike, thank you.  

Just last month, director of National Intelligence James Clapper offered a bleak assessment of the global challenges we and our next president will face.  Take a look.  


JAMES CLAPPER, DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE:  Unpredictable instabilities become the new normal and this trend will continue for the foreseeable future.  There are now more Sunni violent extremist groups, members and safe havens than at any time in history.  The rate of foreign fighters traveling the conflict zones in Syria and Iraq in the past few years is without precedent.  Returning foreign fighters with first hand battlefield experience pose a dangerous operational threat.  ISIL has demonstrated sophisticated attack tactics and trade craft.  

Director Clapper, in all these many decades you have served this country, have you ever seen more diverse or serious challenges to this country's security?

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN, R-ARIZONA:  No, sir, I have not.  I have said that something like that virtually every year I've been up here.  This is my fifth or sixth time.  And I decided to leave it out this year, because it's kind of a cliche, but it's actually true.  In my 50 plus years in the intelligence business, I cannot recall a more diverse array of challenges and crises that we confront as we do today.  


SMITH:  General Jack Keane is chairman of the Institute for the Study of War and a Fox News military analyst.  General, good evening to you.  


SMITH:  Those were bleak words, terrifying words for us to hear tonight.  Your take on James Clapper, the director of National Security, saying really that this is a moment in history and the multiple problems that he just outlined will fall in the lap of the next president.  

KEANE:  Yes.  Absolutely.  I certainly underscore that.  I would add to that, that we have three revisionist powers, Russia, Iran and China are all seeking some form of regional domination and are succeeding in that.  We have cyber-espionage that is exploding, that our adversaries are causing in this country, and I agree with all of those comments about radical Islam and ISIS in particular.  This scale of global challenges, we have not seen, Sandra, since the rise of the Soviet Union post-World War II.  And what makes it so much more dangerous is that we're failing miserably at coping with all of it.  

Frankly, our adversaries are emboldened by the lack of American leadership in the world and our friends and our allies, they have lost trust in us. They don't believe we're reliable anymore.  And it forces them to make decisions at times that has adverse consequences and increases the risk for them because the number one ally in the world is not there for them.  

SMITH:  And you have been on that for some time.  This isn't politics, this is leadership.  We are lacking leadership.  You say we are lacking strategy, General.  And in that statement, by James Clapper, he said something that he said he had said last year as well, that, quote, "Unpredictable instability has become the new normal."  Does it have to be that way, or could new leadership in this country change this?  It's so much.  

KEANE:  Yes.  The number one issue for me is not a policy issue.  Frankly, it is a leadership issue.  And I think it caught many of us by surprise, but there's no longer any surprises.  For seven years, we've experienced a president who broke from a historical and traditional past, whether they be Democratic or Republican presidents, since World War II, all of those presidents saw the United States as playing a vital leadership role in the world to help provide stability and security and add to the world's prosperity, because one, we're the world's richest and most important economic power.  And two, the most powerful nation on the world.  And also because we are the oldest and most flourishing democracy in the world and we have much to add to the values and character of people of the world.  

That has not happened under this president.  And if we can return to that important leadership role again, I believe we can systematically deal with these problems, but then we would to bring our allies in close.  They would have to know we're there.  We will have to provide them with some confidence and courage to get after these challenges.  And not all of these challenges need to be solved by muscular military intervention, but they need to be solved by thoughtful people coming together with moral courage, with character and with commitment to see it through.  

SMITH:  Are you confident that -- are you confident that we can come up with a strategy to combat this, general?

KEANE:  Oh, yes.  I am absolutely confident that we can find the strategies and policies to deal with the adventuresome of those three revisionist powers with North Korea trying to develop a ballistic weapon system that could reach the United States.  And also, I think the generational challenge of the 21st Century, much as communist ideology wasn't a 20th is radical Islam.  We need global alliance to be able to deal with.  As much as we did with communism in the 20th century.  This can be done, but we need to unite together and do it, and the United States will have to provide the leadership role.  The Europeans are not going to do it.  The Arabs are not going to do it by themselves.  We have to lead.  

SMITH:  All right.  General Keane, honor to have you tonight.  Thank you, sir.  

KEANE:  It's always good talking to you, Sandra.  

SMITH:  Okay.  Also today, U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry defended Belgium's counterterrorism efforts against critics saying that carping about Belgium's shortcomings is, quote, "a little bit frantic and inappropriate," just days after the attack.  

Dr. Sebastian Gorka is the Major General Mathew C. Horner Distinguished Chair of Military Theory at Marine Corps University and author of "Defeating Jihad."

Dr. Gorka, we spoke the other night.  Secretary Kerry coming to the defense of Belgium's counterterrorism efforts, saying this is not the time to Monday morning quarterback.  But was the ball dropped there?  Could this attack have been prevented?

DR. SEBASTIAN GORKA, MARINE CORPS UNIVERSITY:  Yes, it could have been prevented if we had a different form of leadership in Europe, and if we didn't see complete failure of the immigration and integration policies within the European Union.  It is no surprise to intelligence professionals that the most wanted man in Europe connected to the Paris attacks was hiding out in plain sight in Brussels in the equivalent of what is the capital of the European Union.  This tells you everything you need to know.  
The age of multiculturalism and not having to integrate and creating enclaves within Europe, that era is dead.  This is what is exploited by radicals, and as a result, we can expect unfortunately to see more attacks of this nature in the future.  

SMITH:  Dr. Gorka, we look at what happened in Europe this week as Americans and we wonder if that is a window into the future for this country.  Do you see it that way?

GORKA:  I have always said we are about ten years behind Europe.  We have a real clear and present danger from jihad.  We've had more than 95 people killed or arrested on U.S. soil in the last two years connected to ISIS.  So it's here, it's in Philly, in San Bernardino.  But we don't have this kind of enclave, these kinds of hot beds of radicalization in America yet.  We have some problems in certain mosques.  We do have areas where there's a higher density of radicalization.  But it's not as bad as Europe is right now.  

SMITH:  Dr. Gorka, you've been talking about the timing and that timing is everything for these terrorists.  And they see that our president is in the last year of his term and you say that the terrorists see this as an opportunity.  Do you expect attacks, terrorist attacks to pick up in the next few months?

GORKA:  If I were in charge, then yes.  If I'm inside ISIS, I'm going to exploit this administration that's obsessed with social justice and with climate change.  When we have a commander-in-chief who seems to be absent without leave, hanging out with communist dictators or dancing in Argentina, I would exploit that mercilessly.  I would won't to radicalize people.  Yes, if I'm if the enemy, I will exploit the lame duck presidency of President Obama.  So every American needs to be awake and realize the threat is real and it is imminent.  

SMITH:  Dr. Gorka, last night, we had Chairman Michael McCaul on the program and he said Europe is overwhelmed.  Is the U.S., as one would expect you would to say, yes, is the U.S. safer than Europe right now?

GORKA:  Well, we have some amazing national security professionals.  I had the honor of working with elements of the FBI, Special Forces, and elements of intelligence community.  They know the threat, they get it.  But there are some issues is.  When you have an administration that says you can't talk about religion, you can't even use the word jihad, it makes their job more difficult.  So America is a tad safer than Europe because of the scale of the immigration and the refugee crisis that's being exploited by the jihadist.  But the threat is still very real.  And we are the number one target.  Remember, America is the number one infidel target for the jihadist.  

SMITH:  Dr. Gorka, thank you.  

GORKA:  Thank you.  

SMITH:  All right.  This week, terror attacks in Belgium are bringing national security back to the forefront of the U.S. presidential race.  Up next, a look at the candidates on both sides of the aisle and their plans to take down ISIS.  

The Hill A.B. Stoddard and Kansas Secretary of State Kris Kobach are here with the breakdown when we comeback.  


SEN. TED CRUZ, R-TEXAS, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  This is a time that really underscores we need a commander-in-chief who will identify the enemy, identify it by name and do everything necessary to defeat radical Islamic terrorism and to destroy ISIS.  



SMITH:  With terror striking the heart of Belgium on Tuesday, the issue of terror has been brought back to the forefront of the 2016 race, with some of the candidates responding with calls for diplomacy and solidarity with our European allies, while others suggest a stronger showing of American military might in the fight against ISIS.  

Trace Gallagher is in our West Coast Newsroom with a look at that.  Trace.  

TRACE GALLAGHER, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT:  Sandra, when it comes to dealing with terror, the contrast could not be more stark.  The Democratic presidential candidates believe the Republican front-runners are reckless and loose cannons.  The Republicans in turn say the Democrats are soft on terror and wrong about ISIS at every turn.  In the wake of the Brussels' bombings, Donald Trump renewed his call for a ban on Muslim travel to the U.S. and to torture suspected terrorists.  Listen.


DONALD TRUMP, R-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  We can't water board anymore. We can't do anything.  Now, waterboarding, nothing is nice about it, but they say it's a minimal form.  Well, you know what?  We have to go much tougher, because it's eating up the world now.  


GALLAGHER:  Cruz has said he generally disagrees with using enhanced interrogation and he does not support Donald Trump's call for a ban on Muslim travel but he is in favor of using law enforcement to secure Muslim neighborhoods before they become radicalized saying, quote, "The days of the United States voluntarily surrendering to the enemy to show how progressive and enlightened we can be and at our end.  Our country is at stake."  John Kasich disagrees with both Cruz and Trump saying, we're not at war with Islam, we're at war with radical Islam and that this is a time to stay cool and remain strong.  Hillary Clinton calls Ted Cruz's plan to police Muslims dangerous, and unlike Cruz, she would not carpet bomb ISIS strong holds.  She also went after Donald Trump.  Watch.  


HILLARY CLINTON, D-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  Slogans aren't a strategy, loose cannons tend to misfire.  What America needs is strong, smart, steady leadership to wage and win this struggle.  


GALLAGHER:  As for Bernie Sanders, he wants a stronger coalition with Muslim nations and says, we cannot allow the Trumps of the world to attack the Muslim people of the world -- Sandra.

SMITH:  All right.  Trace, thank you.  

Joining me now with more, A.B. Stoddard, associate editor at The Hill.  And Kris Kobach, Kansas Secretary of State who is supporting Donald Trump.  

Kris, I'll start with you first.  You say that there's a major difference in foreign policy strategies, even just between Donald Trump and Ted Cruz, let alone between Hillary Clinton.  What's your take?

KRIS KOBACH, R-KANSAS SECRETARY OF STATE:  Well, I mean, in addition to the differences that Trace just pointed out, you have the difference in the approach to Syrian refugees.  Even as we are speaking, there are 10,000 approximately Syrian refugees already being resettled into the United States.  It's a virtual certainty that there will be ISIS operatives among them.  In contrast, the Obama administration and Hillary Clinton want to continue with the Syrian refugee program.  Another difference is striking oil fields.  Trump has said and I believe Cruz agrees that we should be bombing the oil fields that provide the money to ISIS, whereas the Democrats are saying, oh, no, no, that would cause too much environmental damage.  

And then on top of that, you have this general difference in attitude. You're seeing on the Republican side a very aggressive forward leaning approach saying we are going to take these guys out.  Whereas on the Democratic side with Hillary, she is talking about, we can't make anybody feel bad.  We have to be respectful and we can't have other nations feeling nervous about the United States.  

SMITH:  Okay.  But A.B, maybe that will work for her.  I mean, she and her initial reaction to the terrorist attacks this week, you just heard that sound bite from her.  She's painting Ted Cruz and Donald Trump as these loose cannons, and saying in the wake of an attack, you need a calm, experienced voice.  Will that work for her?

A.B. STODDARD, ASSOCIATE EDITOR, THE HILL:  Right.  Hillary Clinton is going to run on her long resume and on her experience as Secretary of State and say that her rivals don't have the same vision and fundamental understanding of the problem to go after it.  And so, you heard her criticizing the plans of her rivals saying that we can't further isolate Muslims, we can't retreat from NATO and highlighting differences about, you know, the study hand versus, you know, recklessness.  At the same time, this is going to be about the past and the future.  If Donald Trump is the nominee and runs on blaming Hillary Clinton for the rise and strengthening of ISIS under the Obama administration, some voters will agree with him.  

That is the path.  She's going to run on the future saying this is the approach we have to take.  It is definitely when she's out of her primary, Bernie Sanders who is much more of a dove in the left field of the Democratic Party is going to go much more center right and much more of a hawk in the general.  And she's going to make the case that she has detailed plans that are realistic and fulfillable.  And that's going to be the argument.  Is she the blame for ISIS or is she the one that can dig us out of this not Donald Trump?

SMITH:  All right.  Chris, Donald Trump has been criticized by his opponents for not having specifics.  But you say it's the unpredictability about Donald Trump that people like so much, and that we need when it comes to the next president.  

KOBACH:  Yes, interestingly, some of his attributes on the campaign trail are some of the things he's advertising that would make America stronger in dealing with ISIS.  So, unpredictable responses.  Right now we have a president who is incredibly predictable.  We know that when he draws a line in the sand he will not enforce it, you know that when someone is struck around the world, the United States will do virtually nothing.  So you bring in a Donald Trump, all of a sudden the game changes completely.  So his unpredictability is one thing.  His aggressiveness in response, when hit, he hits back harder.  So I think that very general character of his demeanor in the campaign also plays into what I think a lot of Americans probably want to see in the way we deal with the ISIS threat in the world today.  

SMITH:  And A.B., we don't have much time left, but I know one of your most recent pieces in The Hill, you're basically saying that Donald Trump can beat Hillary Clinton, despite polling that shows that he does not beat Hillary Clinton when put up against each other in a general election.  


SMITH:  Quickly, your main reasoning behind that?

STODDARD:  She has far more an electable profile if you look at all the groups.  You have to win over the win on national election.  He has a very risky and difficult path, but it's true, getting to 51 percent with white voters who probably aren't yet registered.  Only 58 percent of the country voted in the Romney-Obama election in 2012.  Romney lost to President Obama by fewer than 334,000 votes in four states.  The person with the most numbers wins and the key to that is getting new voters.  

SMITH:  All right.

STODDARD:  So, he would have to push himself over the top with a set of voters that haven't participated before.  

SMITH:  All right.  Chris, Amy, thank you.  We're going to have to leave it there.  But definitely foreign policy back at the top of everybody's list.  Thank you.  

There's a growing debate over whether any of these approaches will be sufficient to stop ISIS.  And our next guest would know, he went to an everyday teenager in Canada to a hardline jihadist who initially celebrated the attacks of September 11.  He warns the threat from terror we face today looks a lot different and more dangerous than it did 15 years ago.  Then we'll ask Muhammad Chaudhry and Zuhdi Jasser what the American-Muslim community needs to do to help our authorities, U.S. authorities prevent radicalization right here at home.  


MIKE MORRELL, FORMER ACTING CIA DIRECTOR:  ISIS has gained affiliates faster than al Qaeda ever did.  From nothing a year ago, there are now militant groups in nearly 20 countries that have sworn allegiance to ISIS.  




MORRELL:  ISIS is gaining affiliates among extremist groups around the world.  They are signing up, these groups are signing up for what ISIS desires as its objective.  A global caliphate where day-to-day life is governed by extreme religious views.  ISIS has gained affiliates faster than al Qaeda ever did.  


SMITH:  That was former acting CIA Director Michael Morrell in January, warning that the terror army known as ISIS a totally different beast than al Qaeda.  The group synonymous with terror for years.  And for our next guest who went from an everyday teenager in Canada to a hardline jihadist who initially celebrated the attacks of September 11th.  The threats we face today are much bigger than anything we've dealt with before.  

Mubin Shaikh is a former jihadist turned undercover counterterrorism operative for Canadian Intel Services and co-author of "Undercover Jihadi."  Thank you for joining us tonight.  


SMITH:  So you say -- first of all, how initially were you radicalized?

SHAIKH:  Well, I mean, born and raised in Toronto, Canada, I grew up with an identity crisis that emerged of course as soon as I became a teenager. I went to kind of find myself and ended up in Pakistan, had a chance encounter with the Taliban. And that's what sent me on my path of extremism.

SMITH:  And how did you come about the realization that this was not the life for you and you made your big change?

SHAIKH:  Yes, 9/11 was the real trigger. So, basically from '95 to 2001, I was recruiting, I was in that network, 2001, of course, the attacks happened on the Tuesday. I remember that day. And I thought to myself, you know, there's some fundamentally wrong flying planes into buildings.

So, I decided then I needed to study my religion properly. I went to Syria for two years from 2002 to 2004. And I spent time with a religious scholar who went through the verses of the Koran, in their context, not the cherry picking that people do and realized terrorism is completely against the religion.

SMITH:  So, fast forward to today and you look at the radicalization process and you say we're dealing with a totally different beast. You're saying that the radicalization is happening faster and faster and it's happening to younger and younger people. Why has this change come about?

SHAIKH:  Yes. And I want to just add to my chronology, my undercover work from 2002 to 2004, where I was online, I was on the ground, one of those cases became a public prosecution and ended up in court.

SMITH:  Right.

SHAIKH:  But from '95 when I started, it was the internet had just begun.
You had Yahoo, chat or chat forums, and then suddenly these CDs started to come out, you know, in the mid-20, mid-2000 when the Iraq war happened, the beheading videos started. You could download them from forums online.

Then, you know, Twitter, Facebook, the social networking phenomenon came. So, the social networking, the pervasiveness of social networking used among youth that it's causing, you don't need face-to-face recruitment. You're doing it online, it's happening very fast, because the information available to you is very quick. And very, you know, with a lot of volume. So you can download many, many files in a matter of minutes.

SMITH:  Yes. Social media has changed everything, right? I mean, that didn't even exist when you were on the other side. But knowing what you know and knowing what you know now, how do we fight this?

SHAIKH:  Look, you know, you're going to hear a lot of tough talk from people. But you know, I'm going to be hard on the community this and that, but I'm telling you, as an ex-undercover who actually stopped plots, two things.

Human intelligence and signals intelligence, meaning tapping phones, people. People who can infiltrate. And number two, NGO-based interventions and counseling programs. You are not going to convince Muslims to work for a government that they think is keeping their people down. So, this is why people say don't engage in the marginalization of all Muslims. You're going to get the human intelligence you need.

SMITH:  Right.

SHAIKH:  So, those are the two angles. Human intelligence and NGO-based counseling and interventions.

SMITH:  All right. Mubin Shaikh, thank you for your perspective tonight.

SHAIKH:  You're most welcome. Thank you for having me.

SMITH:  Joining me now, Muhammed Chaudhry, the communications director for the Ahmadiyya Muslim community; and Dr. Zudhi Jasser, the president of the American Islamic Forum for Democracy. Welcome to you both tonight.

Zuhdi, I'll start with you first. You say there's only one way to fight extremism.

ZUHDI JASSER, AMERICAN ISLAMIC FORUM FOR DEMOCRACY PRESIDENT:  There is. And unfortunately, as much as some of the techniques are Mubin talked about might be correct, he's missing the cancer. I'm a doctor, right? I treat the core disease. He's talking about symptoms.

The core disease, the cancer is political Islam, it's the identity of the Islamic state. That's why ISIS is so different than Al Qaeda. They've established the Islamic state. So, until we begin to counter and reform the ideas that are the pathway to radicalization.

Right now the entire whack-a-mole of our homeland security is countering violent extremism. Until they change that to counter in violent Islamism, which is the concept of the Islamic state.

And until we start monitoring ideologies of Jihadism, selfism, the continuum prior to when they become militants, when they start to be separatists of the Saudi Wahhabi ideology, those need to be monitored.
Because those are the precursors that we can target in homeland security and acknowledge that we need to reform within the house of Islam.

SMITH:  And, Muhammed, you say that Muslim leaders in America should be doing more.

MUHAMMED CHAUDHRY, AHMADIYYA MUSLIM COMMUNITY DIRECTOR:  Absolutely. And as a member of the Ahmadiyya Muslim community, the largest organized Muslim community in the world and the USA, we believe we need proven models versus shallow theories by political candidates who want some free publicity.

The three things we need. One is leadership matters here. Leadership matters such as the leader, his holiness, the caliph of Islam, Misuratha Ahmed (ph) have said, our mosques, 16,000 mosques around the world and 70 mosques in the USA are open to anything. If you want to come in, law enforcement, everyone wants to come into these public places. They're open to you.

Secondly, we need to counter this ideology with the true ideology and revive true Islam. We invite Muslims and non-Muslims to where we have this 11.3 we believe fundamentally attacked at the core of the misrepresentation of Islam that ISIS is doing.

And law enforcement has signed up from chiefs of police in New Jersey to the chief of police in San Bernardino, as well as bipartisan congressional support.

SMITH:  But, Zuhdi...


CHAUDHRY:  And the third point is, inconsistent Muslim leadership, and that's where we sent out a letter to 2200 mosques around the country to show them that here, join us. And we invite all Muslim leaders to join us. And if they're not we like to know what because we believe this is the antidote to save Muslim and save others.

SMITH:  Zuhdi, I want to get you in here. Because we're not seeing a whole lot of evidence that that works, and there is problems with law enforcement working with these Muslim communities.

JASSER:  And, you know, let me add me in here. I think that it's interesting, the vagaries of what he's talking about. I mean, people -- Americans are intelligent. They want to hear specifics from Muslims of what we're talking about reforming.

We need to condemn the concept of the caliphate, condemn violent Jihad. To call for the equality of men and women. To call for the condemnation of Wahhabi Islam and the blasphemy laws and the apostasy laws.

Until we do those specifics you're not going to take the era out of this Islamic radicalization. And, you know, what is true Islam, what is that debate? We put out a reform movement declaration that has two pages of principles that many of sign.

I mean, we need just like alcoholic synonymous, Muslims need an Islamism anonymous in order to counter the ideology and talk about what really need to reform. There's too much vagary for Americans to understand what the problem is.

SMITH:  And, Muhammed, bring us back home. I mean, what are we seeing as far as the youth here in the United States and radicalization? What is the trend?

CHAUDHRY:  So what we're seeing is, people need to understand true Islam. Just like, Zuhdi, you can't become a doctor on Google. You can't represent Islam based on Google. You need to go deep, you need to understand leadership matters.

JASSER:  I'm a Muslim.

CHAUDHRY:  That having leadership in Islam matters and not just a short list. But your list is incomplete. If you go to, there are 11 points like separation of mosque and state, like loyalty to your country or resident.


JASSER:  Well, will you condemn violent Jihad in the count under the caliphate?

CHAUDHRY:  All 11 points, if you look at 11 points you will realize that this is a proven model for 127 years. It has worked. It is proven around the world. So, rather than shallow theories we need to look what works, and this has worked for 127 years in a worldwide community.

JASSER:  You can't defeat ISIS without condemning all Islamic states and caliphates. Full stop. Until the Americans hear that, we are apologists for the problem. There are no answers.

SMITH:  All right. We're going to have to leave that.

CHAUDHRY:  Absolutely. Well, ISIS has killed more Muslims than Jews, Christians, anyone else.


JASSER:  Islamic state...

CHAUDHRY:  ISIS is attacking humanity and when we disagree with everything...


JASSER:  ISIS is the...

CHAUDHRY:  ISIS is doing but the true Islam is the caliph of Islam that who we need to join.

SMITH:  All right. We're going to have to leave it there. Important discussion and an emotional one clearly. Thank you to Muhammed and Zuhdi for joining in on that.

When we come back, the search continues tonight for a Kentucky couple missing in Belgium. Meanwhile, harrowing details continue to emerge from survivors who lived through the chaos. Bo Dietl is here next with tips to protect you and your family from becoming victims of an attack.


MASON WELLS, BRUSSELS BOMBING SURVIVOR:  I was actually conscious for all of it, and even the several hours following. The first blast went off over to my right about 10, 15 meters. I was in the back of delta to the check-in line.




WELLS:  The first blast went off over to my right, about 10, 15 meters. I was in the back of the delta to check-in line. And the blast was really loud. It even lifted my body a little bit, and I remember feeling a lot of really hot and really cold feelings on the whole right side of my body. I was covered in a fair amount of blood, not necessarily mine.


SMITH:  That was Mason Wells, a 19-year-old Mormon missionary from Utah who was among at least 12 Americans injured in Tuesday's terror attacks in Brussels. As we first reported last night, two American siblings, Sascha and Alexander Pinczowski, of New York City were killed.

A Kentucky couple, Stephanie and Justin Schultz, remain missing. Meantime, the State Department's travel alert remains in effect for all of Europe until further notice.

Bo Dietl is a Fox News contributor and former NYPD detective and he joins us live on set tonight. Bo, this is just so difficult for all of us to hear. This is such a beautiful that we hope to visit, people have plans to visit. Do you advise that right now?

BO DIETL, FORMER NYPD DETECTIVE:  One of my kids wanted to go over there for spring break and I told, no. I said this is a very bad time. You've got one million refugees from Syria in Europe. And on top of it, of those, there's scourge hundreds of alleged ISIS sympathizers.

So, they're infiltrated all over. They're looking to do things, they're looking to disrupt them. We saw what they did at the airport there. I'm frightened to travel to Europe right now, and I'm frightened for my family to travel there. The State Department had an alert a year ago. We get communications back and forth. Now it's on the highest alert for obvious reasons.

SMITH:  But they still say if you do go and you have plans to go, to exercise vigilance. We all kind of really wonder what that means.

DIETL:  Well, that means if you don't have to take a subway, go take a taxi cab, that's one. Number two, what I notice all the time, everybody is buried into their stupid iPhones, no one is paying attention to their surroundings.

You got to look around you got to see. If something doesn't look right, people don't look right, go the other way. That's what I tell everybody. It's all about awareness and people are not aware.

I'm sure this was a lot of people on their iPhones. And you know, my heart goes out to all of those people that were killed and injured over there in the airport and Brussels. But I'm sure a lot of them were embedded into their iPhones when these happened not even realized when these guys pulled up. Just imagine if you see some doesn't look right. Go to the other way.

SMITH:  And many of us are getting any of that.

DIETL:  Yes.

SMITH:  Well, you're really big into the surveillance of these Muslim communities.

DIETL:  You know, I get really upset, Sandra, because I talked to Ray Kelly on Wednesday morning. I said you've got to give me some ammunition. How many actual cases -- there was two actual cases with the surveillance undercover in Muslim communities that they were able to stop attacks in New York.

My problem here is, I want to get more Muslim police, more Muslim FBI people. I want to get the people of the Muslim community, because they're American Muslims. They're Americans.

SMITH:  How is that idea received?

DIETL:  A lot of people don't realize, these are good people. The majority of Muslims are good peace-fearing people. What we need them to express to the police, where they can speak Arabic with them.

SMITH:  Yes.

DIETL:  Let them know what's going on. Some looks suspicious. We need them. But to say, you know, to jump out ugly the way big bird de Blasio did here in New York City, to jump ugly and say oh, we can't survey. Baloney. If I'm after an Italian mob, the Sicilian mob, I'm going to go into an Italian neighborhood and I'm going to have a Sicilian undercover in there in going after the mob.

Come on. Let's be real. Stop the damn political correctness, because people are going to die. We have to have intelligence. We have to stop the bombings. I love to see these cops outside with machine guns and all that.

The only problem is, when that explosion happens in the train or in Penn station or in grand central, you know what, I want to stop it before it happens. I was there 9/11 when after those towers came down, so I don't forget what I saw.

SMITH:  You send this off on a positive message we've got to go. You know, people are terrified right now. But we want to go about our the thing as possible...


DIETL:  Here's a positive message. We're going into Easter weekend. God bless everybody and maybe, just maybe if we all been together and we all communicate we can avert anything from happening in America. Because I feel like it's coming.

SMITH:  All right. Good to have you both. Thank you.

DIETL:  Thank you, Sandra.

SMITH:  Happy Easter to you.

Up next, month of bitter fighting on the campaign trail maybe taking its toll on voters. What a new poll says about optimism among republicans and what it means for the 2016 race. Governor Mike Huckabee is here with that.

Plus, a special Easter message.


SMITH:  The constant war of words surrounding the 2016 race may be taking a toll on voters. According to a new Gallup poll, just 30 percent of Americans say the presidential election process is working as it should. But when just looking at republicans alone, confidence among the GOP faithful is down 16 percent since January.

Joining me now with his take on this, former republican presidential candidate, Governor Mike Huckabee. Governor, good evening to you.

MIKE HUCKABEE, R-FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  Thanks, Sandra. Great to be with you tonight.

SMITH:  Good to see you. I wish we were talking about something more positive but it looks like there's not a whole lot of faith from voters out there about the election process right now. When's causing that?

HUCKABEE:  The reason is because people are watching the party bosses try to take this election and turn it into a selection. And that has people who are out here working hard for their candidates just livid.

I mean, everybody believes that the whole point of an election is if you get the candidates, they make their case, they get voted for or against and the winner wins.

And now we have people saying, no, we don't like the guy that might win so we're going to do everything possible to derail him including changing the rules. We just saw what happened in Louisiana where Donald Trump won the state, but the manipulation of the party rules means that Ted Cruz will end up with more delegates.

That same thing happened to me in 2008 and to Rick Santorum in 2012. It's now happening to Donald Trump in 2016, and it's that kind of thing combined with the secret meetings they're having in Washington...

SMITH:  Yes.

HUCKABEE:  ... to determine how they are going to get the process taken. People are sick of that and they should be.

SMITH:  And Governor, what's your best guess as we're finishing off another week here and watching this 2016 race, where things are going for the Republican Party.

HUCKABEE:  I mean, Donald Trump is in a position where if he continues to win and win big, he'll have the delegates necessary before the convention and it would be almost impossible to take it away from him. But if he doesn't, then I think that there's going to be an incredibly messed up convention where you'll have people saying, look, the people who got the most votes ought to be the ones considered.

I heard people this week saying, well, it might be somebody that didn't even run. I would find that very problematic. And I hope that we don't go there. I think it would destroy and completely blow up the Republican Party.

SMITH:  Wow. All right. Well, from going faith -- from faith in the Republican Party to faith in ourselves and faith in our country and world, we're ending a very tough week, Governor, where we witnessed these terrorist attacks in Brussels.

It's been a tough scene to watch play out. And there was this piece written today in Christian Today after the Brussels attacks we need more religion, not less. As we head into the Easter weekend, send us off on a positive note, will you?

HUCKABEE:  Well, I think it's a great time to be reminded that this is the week we celebrate Easter if we're Christian, Passover if one is Jewish, and both are reminders of the hope and the faith of people who believe that it is the enemy that comes to steal, to kill and destroy.

For the Christian, we are reminded that Jesus said I have come to give your life and more abundantly. And when we think that there's no hope and that the terrorists are winning, get up in the morning, watch the sunrise. Tomorrow afternoon, watch the sunset and remember that the terrorists can't stop that.

And one thing we have to remember is that real faith is not so much about what we don't do, it's about what we positively do. It's about loving our neighbor, it's about making sacrifices to help other people rather than to sacrifice other people for our own goals.


SMITH:  We'll be right back. Governor, thank you.


SMITH:  All right. Stay tuned because coming up in a moment the new episode of "War Stories Fighting ISIS" Colonel Oliver North and former NAVY SEAL, Leif Babin take a deep dive into the world of Islamic extremism.

That's it for "The Kelly File." I'm Sandra Smith.


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