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Fox News Sunday

Marco Rubio and Bernie Sanders react to death of Justice Scalia, talk 2016 race

This is a rush transcript from "Fox News Sunday," February 14, 2016. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.


Today, the judicial legacy of Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia and the fierce political battle to replace him.  


BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES:  I plan to fulfill my constitutional responsibilities to nominate a successor in due time.  

WALLACE:  And GOP candidates respond to Scalia’s death as they duke it out in the bare knuckle fight for South Carolina.  

SEN. TED CRUZ, R-TEXAS, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  We're not going to give up the U.S. Supreme Court for a generation by allowing Barack Obama to make one more liberal appointee.  

GOV. JOHN KASICH, R-OHIO, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  I really wish the president would think about not nominating somebody.  

WALLACE:  After Marco Rubio's damaging debate performance last week --

SEN. MARCO RUBIO, R-FLA., PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  This notion that Barack Obama doesn't know what he's doing is just not true.  He knows exactly what he’s doing.

GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE, R-NEW JERSEY:  There it is.  There it is -- the memorized 25-second speech.  

WALLACE:  Can get his campaign back on track?  

RUBIO:  If our next president is even half the president Ronald Reagan was, America is going to be greater than it's ever been.  

WALLACE:  Senator Marco Rubio on his strategy to regain momentum.  

Then --

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS, I-VT., DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  One of us ran against Barack Obama.  I was not that candidate.  

WALLACE:  The Democratic candidates clash on who is building on the Obama legacy.

Bernie Sanders in his first interview on "Fox News Sunday" since starting the presidential campaign.  

Plus, our Sunday panel breaks down both races as Bush 43 prepares to hit the campaign trail for his brother.  

DONALD TRUMP, R-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  They tried the mother, that didn't work out so good.  

JEB BUSH, R-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  If Donald Trump wants to go after my brother -- man, I think that won't be helpful.  

WALLACE:  All, right now, on "Fox News Sunday."


WALLACE:  And hello again from Fox News in Washington.  

First, the news that broke late Saturday, the death of Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia.  The passing of this conservative giant leaves a big hole in the court.  And it sets off a fierce struggle of a whether Barack Obama should name his successor or leave that to the next president.  We'll ask two leading candidates for the White House, Republican Marco Rubio and Democrat Bernie Sanders in a few minutes.  

But, first, let's bring in Fox News chief legal correspondent Shannon Bream, reporting from the Supreme Court -- Shannon.

SHANNON BREAM, FOX NEWS CHIEF LEGAL CORRESPONDENT:  Chris, he's been described as larger than life and that was true of Justice Antonin Scalia both on and off the bench.  He was a spirited jurist, and unapologetic about his philosophy.  


JUSTICE ANTONIN SCALIA, U.S. SUPREME COURT:  I look to the words of the Constitution.  I ask, what did those words mean to the society that adopted them?  That's the same thing I do with legislation.  What do those words mean?  What's the fair understanding of them?  


BREAM:  Scalia was known for being rather immovable once he reached a decision and often penned fiery dissent when he was on the losing end of an opinion.  Dissenting from the court's decision to legalize gay marriage nationwide last year, Scalia felt the majority had ignored the will of millions of Americans who had voted at the state level to preserve the traditional definition of marriage.  Scalia wrote, quote, "A system of government that makes the people subordinate to a committee of nine unelected lawyers does not deserve to be called a democracy", and now a potentially epic showdown over his replacement.  


OBAMA:  I plan to fulfill my constitutional responsibilities to nominate a successor in due time.  There will be plenty of time for me to do so and for the Senate to fulfill its responsibility to give that person a fair hearing and a timely vote.  


BREAM:  Senate Majority Leader Republican Mitch McConnell says he believe that should be left to the next president.  And while that partisan fight plays out, the court is left to wrestle with the key decisions this term on affirmative action, abortion, the president's use of executive power and the HHS contraceptive mandate.  In these cases as in any others, if the court issues a 4-4 decision that essentially just leaves the lower court ruling in effect -- Chris.

WALLACE:  Shannon, thank you.  

Now to the race for the White House.  We're just six days from South Carolina's first in the south primary.  And last night, a smaller field of Republicans held their final debate before that key contest.  

FOX News senior national correspondent John Roberts reports from Greenville where Scalia's death and vacancy on court was a big issue -- John.  


You know, this morning, Ben Carson likened last night's debate to the Roman Coliseum.  It did illuminate sharp differences between the candidates both on policy and personally.  But the debate started off with a rare moment of agreement over the passing of Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia.  


KASICH:  I believe that president should not move forward and I think that we ought to let the next president of the United States decide who is going to run that Supreme Court.  

TRUMP:  I think it's up to Mitch McConnell and everybody else to stop it.  It's called delay, delay, delay.  

CRUZ:  The Senate needs to stand strong and say we're not going to give up the U.S. Supreme Court for a generation by allowing Barack Obama to make one more liberal appointee.  


ROBERTS:  Well, that was about the end of getting along.  From there on end, it was a free for all, highlighted by a declaration of war between Donald Trump and Jeb Bush.  


BUSH:  Donald Trump was building a reality TV show, my brother was building a security apparatus to keep us safe.  And I’m proud of what he did.

TRUMP:  The World Trade Center came down during his brother’s reign.

BUSH:  He has the gall to go after my mother.  He has the gall to go after my mother.  

TRUMP:  That’s not keeping us safe.


ROBERTS:  A big part of Jeb Bush's strategy in South Carolina is to be the only one to stand up to Donald Trump and to try to punch him as hard as he can, Chris.  We'll find out if it worked the week from now.  

WALLACE:  John Roberts reporting from South Carolina -- John, thanks for that.  

And Senator Marco Rubio who was trying to rebound from a shaking debate performance last week in New Hampshire, Senator Rubio, welcome back to FOX NEWS SUNDAY.  

RUBIO:  Thank you.  Thanks for having me back.  

WALLACE:  Last night, you said that President Obama basically doesn't have the right to appoint Scalia's successor.  Take a look.  


RUBIO:  I do not believe the president should appoint someone.  It's not unprecedented n fact, it's been over 80 years since a lame duck president has appointed a Supreme Court justice.  


WALLACE:  Now, Senator, when you say lame duck, President Obama has been a lame duck since he was re-elected in 2012.  Are you saying that no president can appoint someone to the Supreme Court in their second term?  

RUBIO:  Well, I’m not saying it's illegal.  He most certainly has the power to nominate someone.  The Senate has already said, and Mitch McConnell last night was very clear.  We are not moving forward on Supreme Court nominee until after this election.  

And the main -- one of the reasons why is this president is no longer -- he's now at the end -- if this was early in the second term, that's one thing.  But he now has less than a year left in office.  The voters -- the Supreme Court can function with eight justices.  Their court -- they're not in year round.  So they can get through this term of the Supreme Court with all of the decisions.  They've done this before.  

And then there will be an election in November.  And we’re going to have a debate about what kind of justice should replace Scalia.  The voters are going to get to vote for a new president and I think this will be part of their calculus.  

So, I think we should wait until after November before we move forward on confirming any justice to the Supreme Court.  

The president can nominate whoever he wants.  But the Senate is not going to act and that’s pretty clear.  So, we can keep debating it but we're not moving forward on it, period.

WALLACE:  But Ronald Reagan named Anthony Kennedy to the Supreme Court in November of his seventh year.  And Kennedy was actually confirmed in Reagan's eighth year.  So, are you saying somehow that November is OK but three months later is over the line?  

RUBIO:  Yes.  Again, I mean, I don't -- it doesn't really matter what they've done, Reagan did in '87.  It was '87 whether he nominated him.  Obviously, it was early in the year.  This is November, October, September of last year where the president had more than a year left in office than perhaps this will be a different discussion.  

But he now has basically about 11 months and 10 1/2 months left in office.  We have an election coming up.  There will be a debate over what the Supreme Court justices should be like.  And voters are going weigh in in November and they're going to elect a new president.  

So, I think the president should allow the next president to appoint the justice to the Supreme Court and if it's me, and I anticipate that it will be, I’m going look for someone in the mold of Justice Scalia who while irreplaceable I think is a model jurist and one of the great jurists in American history.  

WALLACE:  Last night, you also got into quite a battle again with Senator Ted Cruz over immigration.  Here’s some of that.  


CRUZ:  You know, the lines are very, very clear.  Marco right now supports citizenship for 12 million people here illegally.  I oppose citizenship.  

RUBIO:  Look, this is a disturbing pattern now, because for a number of weeks, Ted Cruz has just been telling lies.  He lied about Ben Carson in Iowa.  He lies about Planned Parenthood, he lies about marriage.  He's lying about all sorts of things and now he makes things up.  


WALLACE:  Senator, what do you think of Ted Cruz?  

RUBIO:  I like Ted.  But in this campaign and the last few weeks, he has kind of developed a disturbing pattern of telling things that simply aren’t true.  Just this week alone, he had an ad pulled off the air because it lied about sanctuary cities and immigration.  He has also, by the way, lied about my position on marriage, my position on Planned Parenthood.  We also saw what he did to Ben Carson.  He keeps acting like it was just a whisper campaign.  

These were paid robocalls that were being made out to his activists in Iowa, telling them to inform people at the caucus site that Ben Carson dropped out.  Donald Trump made an allegation last night, I don't know if it's true or not, about those sorts of robocalls happening here now.  

And then he portrays himself as some sort of immigration purist.  Though he's always been strict on immigration, it's just not true.  When it comes to the issue of people that are in this country illegally, he argued passionately in favor of doing something for them, like, legalizing them and bringing them out of the shadows.  

So, either he wasn't telling the truth then or he's not telling the truth now.  But to portray himself as a consistently does that he's the only conservative in this race -- I mean, it's just not true. And I think that's being exposed here at this campaign.  

WALLACE:  Senator, I also want to ask you about your closing statement last night which has attracted some attention.  You said, "Under President Rubio, we are going to be a country that says that marriage is between one man and one woman."

Now, as you well know, the Supreme Court has ruled the other way on that.  Are you calling for a constitutional amendment?

RUBIO:  No, you're going to have a president that says marriage is between one man and one woman.  Ultimately, the decision to define marriage has an -- and to regulate it especially -- has always belonged to the states.  It doesn't belong at the federal level.  

I think the Constitution already says that.  The Constitution is pretty clear, if it doesn't define a power to the federal government, it doesn't belong to the federal government.  

WALLACE:  But, wait a minute.  

RUBIO:  That's why the decision by the Supreme Court on this issue wrong.  


WALLACE:  But are you going try to overturn the Supreme Court's decision?  I mean, that is the law of the land.  

RUBIO:  A president can’t overturn -- a president cannot overturn a Supreme Court decision.  I can tell that you I believe more justices like Scalia and any justice irrespective of the personal view on the issue of the definition of marriage, who is someone who is going to apply the Constitution as originally meant by the society that wrote those words at the time will tell that you the issue of marriage regulating it and defining it has never belonged to the federal government.  

That court decision, Obergefell, should be overturned on the basis of the Constitution.  If you want to change the definition of marriage, go to your state legislature and have the debate there.  I believe it should be between one man and one woman.  I'll engage in that debate.  But ultimately, your elected representatives at the state level will decide it.  It doesn't belong in the federal courts.  And that decision should be overturn.  

But again, a president can’t overturn a Supreme Court decision.  

WALLACE:  Senator, as you know too well, one of the big stories going into last night was your -- I think you would agree -- shaky performance in the debate in New Hampshire.  Do I think that last night, you undid the damage from that debate, should people who suddenly began to worry, is this the guy we want to put up in the general election against the Democratic nominee -- have you eased those concerns?  

RUBIO:  Yes.  Chris, if you follow -- yes, you have now.  You've been part of two of them.  We had nine debates.  In 8.75 percent of the debates, I’ve done very well according to everyone who watches them.  I had one bad answer to questions, obviously, because of the voters of New Hampshire opined that way and I took responsibility.  It happens.  

But I’m very proud of my debate performances consistently throughout this process and again last night.  And here's the key: if I’m the nominee, I look forward to debating Hillary Clinton or Bernie Sanders.  

One of the points I’m making is: I should be the nominee, because not only am I as conservative as anyone running, I am the conservative that wins.  I consistently beat Hillary Clinton in poll after poll, and I think last night with the passing of Justice Scalia, we are reminded of how important this election is, how high the stakes are, and why we must win.  

I am the conservative that unites the Republican Party, that grows it that, that wins this election, and that begins the important work of undoing the damage Barack Obama has done to us.  

WALLACE:  Senator, you and your farmer mentor, Jeb Bush, are in a battle at least right now in the polls for third place in South Carolina for who's going to be the leading establishment candidate.  You say that he has no foreign policy experience but he's been firing back recently.  Take a look.  


BUSH:  Marco can say that he has a record, but what would it be?  That he goes to committee hearings and talks to people?  That's fine.  That's the job of a senator.  But what is the record of accomplishment?  


WALLACE:  Senator, what about that argument?  He ran a big state eight years and you attend hearings.  

RUBIO:  Well, first of all, that’s not the extent of my experience.  He -- first of all, he has no foreign policy experience.  As he’s gone on to say, his foreign policy experience consists of the fact he lived overseas for a period of time when he was young, and that he invests overseas and lead trade missions.  That’s not foreign policy experience.  

Foreign policy experience is doing as I did, leading the effort to impose additional sanctions on Hezbollah.  Foreign policy experience is doing as I did, when I helped lead the effort to impose sanctions on human rights violators in Venezuela.  Foreign policy experience is the Girls Count Act, which now leverages U.S. foreign aid to prevent human trafficking and slavery around the world.

Foreign policy experience is doing as I did when ISIS first popped up warning quickly while the president was saying this is a jayvee team and no one else was paying attention, I was consistently warning about ISIS, about what is going to happen in Libya, about the situation now in Syria, about the fact that Vladimir Putin would conduct their strikes in the Middle East two weeks before he actually started doing those things.  That's foreign policy experience on which I have achievements.  

Jeb has no foreign policy experience, period.  And that is the most important job of this president.  I’m ready to be the commander in chief and head of our foreign policy on the first day in office.  

WALLACE:  Senator, we have a minute left.  During the last week's debate, you supported extending the draft, signing up for the draft to women and said you have no problem with anyone serving in combat as long as they can meet the standards.  But this week, you seem to flip on that, saying that you don't support women signing up for the draft or making them serve in combat.  Why the change, sir?  

RUBIO:  It isn't a change.  Selective service is not the draft.  Selective service is basically a list of people's names.  

Second, just because someone's drafted, which I don't believe anyone ever will in the future, that’s not nature of modern warfare, but just because someone is drafted doesn't mean you're drafted into combat.  

My point, is again this is another thing Ted Cruz was putting out there that wasn't true, he was saying that I was in favor of forcing women into combat, drafting them and forcing them.  I am the father two of girls that are much closer to combat age than anybody else out there in terms of this being debated about.  

My oldest daughter is 16 years old, OK?  And I am not in favor of her being drafted and forced into combat.  I’m actually in favor of a volunteer armed forces.  

WALLACE:  But just to clear --  

RUBIO:  I’m not even sure we need selective service anymore.  

WALLACE:  But just to clear this up -- do you believe that she should and any woman should have to sign up for selective service?  

RUBIO:  I’m open to selective service being opened up to women that want to be a part of it.  What I’ve never said and I don't support is that we are going to draft women and force them into combat roles.  That's absurd.  I never supported that.  

I’ve also said that if a woman wants to serve in a combat role and can meet the minimum requirements just like a man, you know, that would be open to that -- I would be open to them doing that.  

By the way, those minimum requirements for combat service apply to both genders.  So, it's not just women that have to meet it.  The men have to meet it as well.  There are many men that don't meet the combat standards.  That’s all I’ve said.

But the idea that we're going to draft women and force them into combat -- I never said that.  That’s not my position.  

And all I said is I’m -- selective service is just a registry of names for a draft that's never going to happen.  I don't know why we still have selective service.  

WALLACE:  Senator Rubio, thank you.  Thanks for making time for us, and, of course, we'll follow how this week goes for you and all the other candidates in South Carolina.  Thank you, sir.  

RUBIO:  Thanks, Chris.  

WALLACE:  Up next, we'll bring in our Sunday group to discuss the death of Justice Scalia and the politics of an opening on the Supreme Court in the midst of a presidential election.



BUSH:  The next president needs to appoint someone with a proven conservative record similar to Justice Scalia.  


WALLACE: Republican presidential candidate Jeb Bush at last night's debate, reacting to the death of Supreme Court Justice Scalia.

And it's time now for our Sunday group: syndicated columnist George Will, David Gregory, former moderator of "Meet the Press" and author of the book, "How's Your Faith?", Washington Examiner columnist and conservative pollster Kristen Soltis Anderson, and Fox News political analyst, Juan Williams.  

George, your thoughts about Antonin Scalia, his legacy and a battle that seems to be shaping over whether or not Barack Obama is going to be able to name his replacement.  

GEORGE WILL, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST:  Well, his originalism, his theory that Constitution should be interpreted as the language was commonly understood at the time was written and ratified was an attempt by conservatives to react against what they took to be the somewhat freewheeling creation of non-constitutional rights by the Warren court and others.  His dissents therefore were often acerbic and written for the law students and the coming generation of judges which complicated the process of getting a majority.

Justice Brennan once said, the most important word in the Supreme Court lexicon is five.  And sometimes Mr. Scalia was indifferent to that because he was writing so to speak for the ages.  His most important contribution I think was creating an alternative conservative infrastructure.  Conservatives were shut out of the academy in many cases.  

I’m wearing the Federalist Society neck tie.  It’s founded in 1982, shortly before he went on the court.  It’s three campuses, it's now on 200 campuses, 60,000 members, 10,000 law students right now.  It's part of the complex and I think lasting Scalia legacy.  

WALLACE:  And what about this question of whether or not, obviously, he can name a successor, but whether or not the Senate should act on it?  

WILL:  Well, the Senate, I think, should not and certainly will not.  The president would need all 46 Democratic senators plus 14 Republican senators, which is probably 14 more than he'll get.  Beyond that --

WALLACE:  That’s to break the filibuster?  

WILL:  That's correct.  

If however, the Republicans had not taken the Senate in 2014, knowing Harry Reid’s disdain for Senate precedents, Reid I think simply would have again broken the rules by changing the rules in the middle of the session and blocked filibusters of Supreme Court justices and the president would have got away with it.  

WALLACE:  David -- and, by the way, good to have you here.  


WALLACE:  The future of the Supreme Court is always a big issue in presidential elections.  But now, we're talking about the current state of the Supreme Court playing out in the midst of a presidential campaign.  How much of an issue do you expect that to be?  

GREGORY:  Oh, this is huge.  I agree with George's take on the politics of this in the Senate.  But, of course, if you're president of the United States, why wouldn't you do what is your responsibility is which is to appoint a successor to Scalia?  

And, by the way, this is now ideological warfare of the highest order.  I don't mean that even pejoratively.  I mean, this is what ideology and ideological warfare is really about, a contest of ideas in this country.  

And if Scalia stood for a subtler role of the Supreme Court in American society and if he fought even for that in a losing way, it's all the more important, because listen to Chief Roberts say recently that he despairs about the fact that the Supreme Court is so highly charged politically right now.  

So, if Obama nominates someone and they get blocked, the Democratic base is going to be highly energized in this campaign.  If he gets someone through, the Republican base is going to be highly energized.  No matter what happens, the court matters.  And it's going to be a big issue on both sides.  

WALLACE: Back in 2012, Justice Scalia sat down for an interview here on "Fox News Sunday." And we got a real insight into his judicial philosophy and his personality.  


ANTONIN SCALIA, U.S. SUPREME COURT JUSTICE:  Textualism means you're governed by the text.  That's the only thing that is relevant to your decision.  Not whether the outcome is desirable, not whether legislative history says this or that, but the text of the statute.

Originalism says that when you consult the text, you give it the meaning it had when it was adopted.  Not some later modern meaning.  

WALLACE:  So, if it was the Constitution written in the 18th century, you try to find what those words meant in the 18th century?  

SCALIA:  Exactly, the best example being the death penalty.  

When the electric chair comes in, it's a new phenomenon.  What did the Framers think of the electric chair?  Who knows?  There wasn’t any electric chair.  

But they did have the death penalty and they did impose death by hanging.  So, what the originalists say is the electric chair more cruel and unusual than hanging was?  And, of course, it isn't because it was adopted to be less cruel, and the same thing with lethal injection.  

WALLACE:  There is one Supreme Court decision -- reading a lot of your writings and speeches over the years -- that seems to distress you more than any other and that is Roe versus Wade, the 1973 decision that says that women have a constitutional right to abortion.  You say that it is a lie and, in fact, while generally willing, you say to accept longstanding precedents, you say you will continue to overturn Roe.  

SCALIA:  It is in my mind the clearest example of being a nontextualist and a non-originalist.  Nobody ever thought that the American people ever voted to prohibit limitations on abortion.  I mean, there is nothing in the Constitution that says that.  All --

WALLACE:  What about the right to privacy that the court found in 1965?  

SCALIA:  There is no right to privacy in the Constitution.  No generalized right to privacy.

WALLACE:  Well, in the Griswold case, the court said there was.  

SCALIA:  Indeed it did, and that was -- that was wrong.

WALLACE:  You wrote Sandra Day O'Connor's decision in the 1989 abortion case, quote, "cannot be taken seriously."

You called an opinion by Chief Justice Rehnquist in 1988 case "a short sighted exercise in folly."

In 2007 dissent, here's what you wrote about Justice Breyer's opinion: "The sheer applesauce of the statutory interpretation should be obvious."

Are you cantankerous?

SCALIA:  Not cantankerous.  I express myself vividly.  Those criticisms are criticism of opinions, not of my colleague.  I'm a good friend of Steve Breyer.  I like him a lot -- and of Sandra Day O'Connor.  And of whoever else whose opinions I criticize.

WALLACE:  And if they call one of your opinion sheer applesauce?

SCALIA:  That's fine, so long as they can demonstrate that it's true.

WALLACE:  You are 76 years old.  Will you time your retirement so that a more conservative president can appoint a like-minded justice?

SCALIA:  I would not like to be replaced by someone who immediately sets about undoing everything that I've tried to do for 25 years, 26 years, sure.  I mean, I shouldn't have to tell you that.  Unless you think I'm a fool.



WALLACE:  The wisdom and wit.  

Kristen, the conventional wisdom is for all the talk every four years about the future of the court that usually it doesn't actually move votes in a presidential election.  But I’m going to pick up on what I was asking David -- this time, if there is a debate, an angry debate going on in the Senate at the time, the president saying here is my choice, Republican senators blocking that choice, could this time be different?  Could it come?  

KRISTEN SOLTIS ANDERSON, WASHINGTON EXAMINER COLUMNIST:  Only 20 percent of Americans say that they think that the Supreme Court is too conservative right now.  I think the fact that there is a vacancy on the court is made more important and sort of sent people to battle stations even faster precisely because this is the seat that was held by Justice Scalia.  The last two vacancies on the court were justices appointed by Republican presidents but who sided generally with the liberal side of the court.  

So, President Obama nominating someone to fill the seats was not going to markedly change the balance of the court.  Here the idea of President Obama appointing a liberal justice to replace Antonin Scalia, someone that you can see why in that interview conservative law students across the country have idolized him, it would -- it would really upset the balance of the court.  

And I think that's what's going to make this a debate that conservatives are engaged and ready to have.  

WALLACE:  Yes, but the flip side is if the president names somebody as is his right under the Constitution, and the Senate blocks it as is its right under the Constitution, you don't think liberals are going to be equally exercised?  

ANDERSON:  Oh, I absolutely believe liberals will be equally exercised.  But certainly, the fact you have 37 percent of Americans who think the court is already too liberal, in general I think conservatives are excited about having this battle moving into November.  

WALLACE:  Juan, big picture.  What do you make of this whole event?  The passing of a legal giant, his legacy on the court and the issue as to what this will play in the presidential campaign?  

JUAN WILLIAMS, FOX NEWS POLITICAL ANALYST:  Well, you know, when I think of Justice Scalia, I think back to Ronald Reagan and Ed Meese as his attorney general wanting to undo the work of what they thought was a liberal activist court which began obviously with Earl Warren in the '50s.  But we're talking about issues like civil rights.  We're talking about abortion rights.  Even, you could say we're talking about gay rights.  

I’m talking about this confluence of rights emerging and they saw it as coming from an activist court that no one elected.  And they wanted to change it.  

I think Scalia was the leader in that effort -- as we saw in your interview, talking about textualism, originalism, going back to the words of the Founding Fathers.  

Now, going forward in the court, and I think it’s really interesting.  You're going have a 4-4 court, 4-4 court.  So, lots of things are not going to be decided here and we've got key cases remaining -- affirmative action, abortion, environmental regulation. Just in the past week or so, the court blocked President Obama's effort in environmental regulation.

The other thing I’d say going forward is diversity. Huge issues here. President Obama, obviously, he wants this as a legacy issue and he's already put two women on the court. The leading candidates right now, two more women. Diane Wood out of -- I think she's out of the -- what circuit, George? Do you remember?

WILL: I don’t.

GREGORY: She’s on the Ninth Circuit.

WILLIAMS: But also -- Ninth Circuit. And then Janet Napolitano, former governor of Arizona, HHS secretary. But also you could have the first --

WALLACE: DHS secretary.

WILLIAMS: I’m sorry.


WILLIAMS: Department of Homeland Security.



And then also you’ve got an Indian-American for the first time, Teresa Mersagan (ph), and you could potentially have the first Hispanic man, Rubin Castio (ph). So diversity is going to add to the kind of anger on the left if the Senate chooses to somehow say, oh, we are going to ignore this president.

WALLACE: This is going to be the kind of politically charged debate that Antonin Scalia would thoroughly have enjoyed.

WILLIAMS: He would love it.

ANDERSON: Oh, yes.

WALLACE: Panel, thank you. We have to take a break here. See you a little bit later in the program.

Up next, Senator Bernie Sanders makes his first appearance on "Fox News Sunday" since announcing his canned candidacy. We’ll ask him about Scalia and the increasingly tough race against Hillary Clinton.


WALLACE:  Coming up, Donald Trump and Ted Cruz clash as they look towards a two man race.


CRUZ: I like Donald. He is an amazing entertainer.

TRUMP: Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

CRUZ: His policies have been very, very liberal.

TRUMP: You are the -- the single biggest liar.


WALLACE:  We'll ask our Sunday panel how ugly the South Carolina primary could get.


WALLACE:  The Democratic race for president has turned from a Clinton coronation into a real battle. Last night I spoke with Senator Bernie Sanders for the first time since he announced his candidacy in May.


WALLACE:  Senator Sanders, welcome back to "Fox News Sunday."

SANDERS: My pleasure.

WALLACE: There is already a fierce argument after the passing of Justice Antonin Scalia, Democrats say the president should name and the Senate should confirm his successor. Republicans say that should be left to the next president. Where do you stand, sir?

SANDERS: No, I think we want a full contingent on the United States Supreme Court. We are dealing with enormously important issues. The Constitution is pretty clear. The president makes the appointment, Senate confirms, let's get on with that business.

WALLACE:  You disagreed with Justice Scalia on a judicial basis, not a personal basis, on almost every issue. What do you think his legacy is, sir?

SANDERS: Well, clearly, he was a brilliant man. A very colorful man. Aa very outspoken man. And I happen to respect people who are willing to come under public scrutiny and serve their country. So you're right, Chris, he and I had very different points of view, but I respect people who are willing and prepared to serve their country.

WALLACE:  Senator Sanders, let's turn to politics. The Clinton campaign strategy now is that they have a firewall as the campaign turns west and south in states with much larger minority voters. She's beating you by 10 points according to the latest polls in Nevada, 30 points in South Carolina. Just how strong is the Clinton firewall?

SANDERS: Well, you know, when we began this campaign, Chris, we were at 3 percent in the polls nationally. We were 50 points behind in Iowa, 30 points behind in New Hampshire. But clearly the results in both of those states turned out to be very different than when we were -- where we were when we started.

I think we're going to surprise people in Nevada. I think we're going to surprise people in South Carolina. I am talking to you right now from Denver, Colorado, where we just had 18,000 people coming out to a rally. I think we're looking really good with a whole lot of momentum for Super Tuesday as well.

WALLACE:  But when you were talking about those polls, that was six months before the voting actually took place. We're talking a week or two before the voting takes place in South Carolina and Nevada. And, also, the Clintons have such long, deep ties to the African-American community. Why should a black voter choose you over Hillary Clinton?

SANDERS: Well, I think because if you look at my life's work, if you look at the agenda and -- that we are bringing forth in terms of economics and criminal justice, this is an agenda that works for all Americans, but especially for those who are hardest hurt, hardest hit economically. We're talking about raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour over the next several years. We're talking about pay equity for women. We're talking about creating millions of decent paying jobs, rebuilding our crumbling infrastructure. We are talking about focusing on the outrageously high rate of youth unemployment in the African-American community. We are talking about having the United States join the rest of the industrialized world guaranteeing health care to all, making tuition at public colleges and universities free so all of our kids, regardless of income, can get the higher education that they need. And we're also tackling, in a very aggressive way, a broken criminal justice system in which we have, Chris, as a nation, more people in jail than any other major country on earth, disproportionately African-American and Latino. We need a whole lot of work to make sure that we are providing education and jobs for our kids, rather than jails and incarceration.

WALLACE:  Senator, Priorities USA Action, the super PAC that is supporting Hillary Clinton, has just announced that it is going to spend $5 million now to help her instead of waiting until the general election. When you brought up that super PAC during the debate this week, she denied there was much of a relationship. Watch.


HILLARY CLINTON, D-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If you had a super PAC, like President Obama had, which now says it wants to support me. It's not my PAC. If you take donations from Wall Street, you can't be independent.


WALLACE:  Senator, how close are Clinton's ties to that super PAC and, straight out, do you believe that the millions of dollars she's gotten in campaign donations and also in speaking fees from Wall Street, do you believe that they have bought influence with Secretary Clinton?

SANDERS: Well, Chris, obviously -- I mean I don't think there is any debate, but that this super PAC is one in which the secretary has worked very, very hard to raise a whole lot money. If my memory is correct, in the last reporting period, they raised $25 million, $15 million of it coming from Wall Street.

Now, she's obviously not the only candidate out there. Many Republicans are raising huge amounts of money from Wall Street as well. You know, every candidate says, hey, all of that money coming in from Wall Street, fossil fuel industry, it doesn't impact me. Every candidate says that. Well, the question that we ask are -- is Wall Street and all of these others billionaires and wealthy individuals, are they really so dumb? Why are they contributing so much money? I’ll let the American people make that decision.

WALLACE:  Senator, one of the central points in your campaign, you say it over and over again, is that the American economic system is, in your words, rigged. But I want to go over some numbers with you. In 1981, the top 1 percent paid 17 percent of all income taxes. Now the top 1 percent pays 37 percent. Question, sir, if the wealthy have rigged the system, why have they done such a lousy job of it?

SANDERS: Oh, Chris, I think you are missing the major point here. And that is, what we have seen in recent years is a huge transfer of wealth from the middle class to the top 0.1 percent, whose percentage of wealth in America has doubled. We're talking about trillions of dollars going from the middle class to the top 0.1 percent.

WALLACE:  But, sir, isn't a lot of that because of the economic policies of President Obama and of the Federal Reserve, which put interest rates at basically zero?

SANDERS: No. These are policies that have gone on for a long, long time on the Republican administrations and Democratic administration. Now, are we better off today than we were when President Bush left office and we were losing 800,000 jobs a month? Of course we are. But for the last 40 years, what we have been seeing is a middle class disappearing, people working longer hours for low wages and today, as it happens, 58 percent of all new income is going to the top 1 percent. That's a rigged economy to my mind, Chris.

WALLACE:  Senator, you and Hillary Clinton got into it in this last debate over universal health care, Medicare for all as you call it. You say that it's a good deal for the American people.


SANDERS: The family right in the middle of the economy would pay $500 more in taxes and get a reduction in their health care costs of $5,000.


WALLACE:  But, senator, Kenneth Thorpe (ph), who’s a health care expert, who, in fact, helped devise the single payer plan in Vermont, says that you're wrong. That, in fact, your plan comes up about $1 trillion a year short and that 71 percent of families would be worse off under your plan than they are under the current system.

SANDERS: Well, Kenneth Thorpe can say whatever he wants to say. A lot of the assumptions that he made in his analysis are absolutely incorrect. Chris, here's where we are as a nation. This is not debatable. We have 29 million people without any health insurance. We pay the highest prices in the world for prescription drugs. Millions of our people have huge deductibles and co-payments. And, yet, per capita, we are spending almost three times more than the British, who cover all their people, 50 percent more than the French, and far more than the Canadians.

WALLACE:  Kenneth Thorpe says that it's exactly -- the problems with your plan are exactly the reason that you're own state of Vermont had to drop single payer.

SANDERS: Kenneth Thorpe, I mean, you know, you’ve quote one guy. I think there was just a piece in one of the newspapers today by some of the most -- foremost experts on single payer systems who really denounced Kenneth Thorpe and his analysis. I respectfully disagree with Mr. Thorpe.

WALLACE:  Finally, sir, the Republicans have held debates on all the networks, but the Democrats, so far, have refused to hold a debate on Fox. You are coming on here tonight. We're very grateful. I hope you feel that you haven't been mistreated. Would you be willing to participate in a Democratic debate on Fox News?

SANDERS: If we went -- were clear to understand what the game -- the guidelines were and what the rules were and to make sure that they were fair and the DNC was in favor of it, I would have no objection.

WALLACE:  Well, you -- I assume you've seen this interview we just did. I hope you've seen the interviews we’ve done with the Republicans.

SANDERS: Well, I have seen this interview -- Chris, I have seen this interview, but I have also seen other interviews. So if I could have a guarantee and knew who the questioners were and if the framework for the debate was fair, I would have no objection.

WALLACE:  Well, I'll take that as a definite maybe. Senator Sanders, we want to thank you so much for coming on. Please come back, sir.

SANDERS: OK. Thank you very much, Chris.


WALLACE:  And then there’s Hillary Clinton. In a debate last month, she was asked what she would do as president to bring the country together. Here was her answer.


CLINTON: I think it's an important point the president made in his State of the Union. And here's what I would say. I will go anywhere to meet with anyone at any time to find common ground.


WALLACE:  But, once again this week, Clinton turned down our request to speak to us and the millions of who you watch this program, just as she has every week in this campaign. We'll keep trying for an interview and a debate.

Up next, we bring back our Sunday group to discuss the Republican debate last night and a Democratic race that has turned tight and tough.



TRUMP: You probably are worse than Jeb Bush. You are the single biggest liar.

CRUZ: Donald has this weird pattern. When you point to his own record, he screams liar, liar, liar.


WALLACE:  Well, that’s just a taste of the cut and thrust from last night's Republican debate and we're back now with the panel.

George, your reaction to the debate and to a different part of it, which was Donald Trump's apparent search and destroy mission against Jeb Bush and his brother.

WILLS: Well, yes, it was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back, didn't break the camel's back. It was the critical mass, the accumulation of straws. And the question is, people say, well, Trump’s immune to mere accumulation. The vulgarity and profanity added up. But last night I think he may have passed the frontier. The man who has supported partial birth abortion and gun control and eminent domain and all the rest last night adopted the most vicious line of the hard left in this country, Bush lied, people died. No one doubts that Bush was wrong and all the others about the presence of weapons of mass destruction. And to say that Bush lied and derivatively Colin Powell lied and everyone else in the administration, will not, I think, go down well in South Carolina, which rescued George W. Bush in 2000 after he lost badly in the New Hampshire primary to John McCain. So I think that if there is such a thing as a critical mass, he's approaching it.

WALLACE:  You know, David, I -- I was surprised, because it seems so gratuitous to go after -- I know that George W. Bush, Bush 43, is going to be on the campaign trail tomorrow with his brother, but it seemed odd that he would decide this was the moment to re-litigate the Iraq war. Given the fact that he went into that debate, if you believe the polls with about a 15 point lead, do you think it changed the dynamic of the race on the Republican side?

GREGORY: Well, I do think there’s a combination of the vulgarity and the kind of torching of former President Bush. It was Marco Rubio who had the best response, which is, the best defense of Bush is that he kept the country safe after 9/11 and there can certainly be a debate about the execution of the war, even the basis of the war in Iraq. No doubt about that. but you’ve got 58,000 veterans in South Carolina, W. Bush, former President Bush, is popular down there. Yes, so I don't see the wisdom of it. It allows Jeb Bush an opportunity to kind of fight for the establishment. He's going after Trump, I think, in an effective way in that regard. And there’s still Cruz, who I think is making a strong ideological case against Trump on temperament, on ideology, on not being a conservative and with evangelical support down there, I think he’s -- he’s got some game.

WALLACE:  Kristen, as a Republican pollster, can you explain the wisdom of Trump going after George W. Bush the way he did last night?

ANDERSON: Donald Trump's appeal is that he will be something completely different. And his appeal is not that he is a good Republican who does good Republican things. His appeal is actually to a lot of voters who may have called themselves Republicans, may be interested in participating in this process, but the options they've been offered in previous years, the difference between say a Mitt Romney and a Rick Santorum just didn't thrill them. So Donald Trump, despite the fact that he's doing things that any other candidate -- it would -- it -- they would be written off, counted out of this race, because you have a section of people who call themselves Republicans but they don't like the Republican Party, that is who Donald Trump is appealing to. And that's why in poll after poll he actually doesn't do particularly well among very conservative voters. He does well among those who are more somewhat conservative, who are moderate, those who are less attached to the partisanship and the ideology and who have a more emotional attachment to just wanting to see someone blow up the system.

WALLACE: All right, Kristen, let’s turn to the Democrats. After Bernie Sanders’ landslide, and that’s the only thing you can call it in New Hampshire, do we need to stop thinking of them as a potential spoiler who’s going to make things difficult for Hillary Clinton and push her further to the left, and do we need to start thinking of him as a potential Democratic nominee?

ANDERSON: The trouble Bernie Sanders will have is that he is not able to put together the full Obama coalition. This is not an exact repeat of 2008 because Bernie Sanders does not have the same level of strength with the African-American community, in the Latino community, in the way that Barack Obama did. That said, he's got such strength among young Democratic voters that you have to believe Hillary Clinton is wondering if this is going to hurt her at all in a general election, if this generation of millennial voters, who has fallen in love with Bernie Sanders, they are feeling the Bern, so to speak, do they just decide that she is so inauthentic and does not represent their generation and they just decide to stay home in November if she’s the Democrats’ nominee.

WALLACE:  Juan, what does Sanders’ strength, and -- and whether he ends up getting the nomination or not, what does it say about the state of the Democratic Party at this point? And what do you think it says about Hillary Clinton's strengths and weaknesses as a candidate?

WILLIAMS: Well, let’s start with Hillary Clinton. I think it's pretty clear that she’s not an inspiring candidate. She doesn't inspire people out on the trail. And people see her experience, her connection with not only the Clinton administration but even the State Department as secretary of state, not as a plus in many cases but as evidence that she's part of the establishment, in an era when -- or in an election cycle when people want populism and they want authenticity, they don't see it coming from Hillary Clinton.

Hillary Clinton is running on the basis of her experience and the fact that she can win, that she doesn't think Bernie can win. But, you know, Bernie may excite you, he my thrill you right now, young America, but if you are worried about the Republicans, who are highly energized, and you're worried about the Republicans controlling the White House, the Senate, and the House, then you’ve got to look at me because I can win this race. That's Hillary Clinton's case.

And so when it comes to the Democratic Party, to answer your first question, Chris, then the Democratic Party, which is totally aligned with Hillary Clinton, I mean everybody, Congressional Black Caucus to Debbie Wasserman Schultz and the like --

WALLACE:  All the super delegates.

WILLIAMS: And she’s got the super delegates. So let’s not forget that as we think about who’s actually going to win this thing. You come back to the idea that the Democratic Party with the problems of the Republican Party, which is losing touch with the base.

WALLACE:  Well, and I wanted to pick up on that with you, George. It becomes clear, as this goes on, that both races, both on the Republican side and the Democratic side, are going to continue for a while, probably well into March, maybe even into April. Who’s running more of a risk, the Republicans, who seem to be getting pushed further and further to the right in this debate, or the Democrats, who clearly, with Sanders’ strength, are being pushed further and further to the left?

WILL: They're both in jeopardy. The -- Bernie Sanders' message is, after more than seven years of a Democratic presidency, America is a nightmare of increasing inequality and rampant injustice. That's a hard sell, it seems to me, even for the based. On the Republican side, we know that if the Republican nominee gets the -- Mitt Romney’s portion of the non-white electorate, about 17 percent, he will need to get 65 percent of the white electorate, which no one has done since Ronald Reagan in 1984, carrying 49 states.

WILLIAMS: Not happening.

WILL: And it's going to make it very difficult after this -- this vitriolic rhetoric about immigration to do that.

WALLACE:  Twenty seconds, David, final thought?

GREGORY: I think Hillary Clinton is starting to do a better job against Sanders. I thought she was better in the debate. She’s making him out to be a one issue candidate. More people are paying attention to what his policies would do to the Democratic Party and the country as a whole economically. I think there’s more danger for the right at the moment.

WALLACE:  All right, but New Hampshire was a big loss for her.

GREGORY: No doubt.

WALLACE:  Thank you, panel. See you next Sunday. And we'll be right back with a final thought (ph).


WALLACE: A look at the Supreme Court last night as they lowered a flag in honor of Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia.

Now, this program note. Tonight at 8:00 Eastern, tune to Fox News Channel for Fox News reporting "Voter Revolt," anchored by my colleague, Bret Baier.

And that's it for today. Happy Valentine's Day, especially to Lorraine. And have a great week. And we'll see you next "Fox News Sunday."


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