Richard Dreyfuss: I wanted to hear Ted Cruz's ideas in person

Richard and son Harry Dreyfuss speak out on 'The Kelly File' about the importance of curiosity and challenging your viewpoints


This is a rush transcript from "The Kelly File," February 11, 2016. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

MEGYN KELLY, HOST: Breaking tonight. New warnings of chaos and confusion in the race for the White House, with just nine days to go before the South Carolina primary. There is increased buzz today about the Republican contest possibly ending in a contested convention in July.

Welcome to "The Kelly File," everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. With such a big field and voters so deeply divided. There are growing suggestions tonight that no single candidate will secure enough delegates by the summer, which would lead to a brokered or contested convention. Marco Rubio's team among those floating the idea with Senator Rubio himself sitting down with the Associated Press to discuss it saying, quote, "I don't think it's necessarily negative the Clinton-Obama campaign went all 50 states and every territory. They didn't even wrap it up until June. Then they had all sort of uncertainty going into their convention. Whatever it is, we're prepared for it."

We have a big show for you tonight, including Charles Krauthammer who is here on the latest on the race for the White House. Plus, actor Richard Dreyfuss and his son are here with why Mr. Dreyfuss was at a Ted Cruz rally recently and the fallout. And Diane Sawyer of ABC News is here with a dramatic account of her exclusive interview with the mother of one of the Columbine killers who is speaking out for the first time in 17 years.

But we begin with our chief Washington Correspondent James Rosen reporting from our D.C. Bureau on the drama surrounding the Republican nominee.  James?

JAMES ROSEN, FOX NEWS CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Megyn, the prospect of a brokered convention has loomed over the last few election cycles like Sasquatch, Fordibly (ph) Glimpse, discussed in earnest in frightful tones but something that never actually materializes. This year, however, some smart people are phoning in their sightings. Florida Senator Marco Rubio, as you were saying, licking his wounds from that disastrous debate performance and his fifth place finish in New Hampshire began telling reporters today, it's not necessarily a negative thing if the party's nomination battle goes all the way to July. Rubio campaign Manager Terry Sullivan was even more explicit telling the Associated Press this contest could, quote, "Easily extends to the convention."


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a message to donors saying stick with me and it's a message to Kasich and Bush saying, guess what, boys, I ain't getting out of that mainstream lane.


ROSEN: But it's not just team Rubio sketching out these scenarios. Former New Hampshire Governor and Senator Judd Gregg, a backer of Jeb Bush in this cycle, said this week and I quote, if four people come out of South Carolina, we're headed into a brokered convention. The last time the Republicans held a brokered convention was in Kansas City in 1976 when incumbent President Gerald Ford eked out a first ballot victory over challenger Ronald Reagan. So what is a brokered convention, anyway? In simplest term, it's what happens when the primary process ends without any candidate amassing a majority of delegates.

For the Republicans this year, that means 1,237 delegates. The last field of candidates this cycle. And the allocations of delegates on a proportional not winner take all basis. During the early balloting, up through mid-March has led many analyst to believe Sasquatch will finally emerge from the shadows. However, numerous interested parties presenting some very different profiles dismiss such talk.


SIMON ROSENBERG, PRESIDENT, NDN: If you're only getting five or ten percent in state after state after state, your money dries up. There's no way you can win. And the idea that all of them can stay funded and stay alive while not winning is just not the way politics works anymore.

DONALD TRUMP, R-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I don't see a convention, you know, where -- I don't see it. I don't see it. I don't see it. A lot of people talk about it but I don't see it.


ROSEN: He doesn't see it. And neither does RNC Chairman Reince Priebus and notes the correct term is contested convention, as the back room big shots who wants brokered delegates votes, have been written out of existence by RNC rules -- Megyn.

KELLY: James, thank you. Fascinating.

ROSEN: You bet.

KELLY: Joining us now with more, Ben Shapiro, editor-in-chief of Ben, so today Daniel Henninger in the Wall Street Journal wrote, "It's hard for me to see where a round of brokering in Cleveland is not the most likely outcome." This is a smart guy. Why would that be?  Why?

BEN SHAPIRO, DAILYWIRE.COM EDITOR-IN-CHIEF: Well, the reason is because if you have at least three candidates in the race, all you need in order to get nominated is at least eight states. This is according to the new rules that were implemented back in 2012. You need eight states where you have a majority. You could easily have three candidates who each have a state and nobody with a majority. The problem is you just have too many candidates in this race and no consolidation, no win after New Hampshire. If the field doesn't go down after South Carolina and you still have three or four viable candidates, there's a very good shot actually that nobody has a majority of the delegates going into the Republican convention.

KELLY: So if that happens, and the Republicans get to July, I think it's July 18th the convention starts and they don't have a nominee, they still have three guys or more, I assume it would just be three at that point, but who knows? Who does it benefit? Let's say it's the current frontrunners, it's Trump, it's Cruz, and maybe Rubio, who benefits?

SHAPIRO: Well, you assume that Rubio would benefit from this because there's so many people on the establishment side who like Rubio and Rubio is sort of everybody second shop. But the reason it's called a brokered convention is because all of these candidates will then have the ability to basically tell their delegates, don't give your votes to somebody else unless somebody gives me something. So, the last time you had a truly brokered convention or somebody didn't win on the first ballot was 1948.

KELLY: So, there's horse trading. So, if it were Trump, Cruz, and Bush or Trump, Cruz and Rubio, there's horse trading going on. The first vote goes on. Nobody gets a majority. Then they say, hey, look, I'm electable.  That is a situation in which it helps if they like you.

SHAPIRO: It definitely helps if they like you. So this means that Ted Cruz has some real problem if we get to an open convention like this. In 1948, Earl Warren came from way behind to become the VP nominee specifically because he just gave enough votes to Thomas Dewey in order to -- for Dewey to get the nomination. You could see something similar happen. Let's say that Trump has the most delegates but he doesn't have enough to get the majority, you could see somebody like Marco Rubio theoretically said to Trump, OK, well, I'll put you over the top if you put me second on the ticket. You could even see theoretically, if Rubio and Cruz had enough combined, one of them goes and the other says, I'll throw my votes to you and you become presidential nominee, and I'll take the VP slot.

KELLY: Unbelievable. Well, we'll continue to watch it. Because it doesn't get until March 15th where it's winner take all. Right now, the states could get some of their delegates and some of their delegates and then we get to a point where, it's winner takes all and then somebody presumably has ahead of his team and gets it going. It's great to see you, Ben.

SHAPIRO: You, too.

Joining me now with more on the potential for a long race ahead, Charles Krauthammer, a syndicated columnist, FOX News contributor and author of "Things That Matter."

Charles, good to see you. So what do you think is the likelihood of there being a contested convention where no one has the majority of delegates when we get to July?

CHARLES KRAUTHAMMER, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Well, right now I think it's fairly unlikely. And right now it's the dream of a few of the lagging candidates who figure they can't get the kind of run that would yield a majority of the delegates in time for the convention. What I think is so startling is how there's been this fight with mainly so-called main stream candidate lane for the one guy to emerge to challenge Trump. What they don't seem to understand, and this is cannibalism going on among the moderates, you don't normally associate cannibalism with moderates, is that by the time this one person supposedly emerges, it will be over and Trump will have swept the field or perhaps. Cruz will have come to be the one challenger who wins.

KELLY: Uh-hm.

KRAUTHAMMER: So I think there's a real danger of that, for the mainstream candidates, and right now, the most likely to emerge as the final -- the last man standing against Trump would be Ted Cruz.

KELLY: Uh-hm. How important is South Carolina?

KRAUTHAMMER: South Carolina may be one of the last chances for the field to be winnowed to the advantage of the mainstream or establishment candidates. If it is not, if you get say a Rubio and a Bush emerging and a Kasich, emerging fairly bunched together, I think that would be catastrophic for that lane for all of them. And would open it up to Cruz and to Trump.

KELLY: And if Trump wins South Carolina?

KRAUTHAMMER: If he wins it decisively, he becomes the prohibitive favorite. And then we've got -- if there were no -- if you don't see a winnowing of the field rapidly right after that so you are down to one or perhaps two challengers, he could run the table.

KELLY: What is so fascinating about Trump is -- and Rush Limbaugh was making this point, that he's not ideological. You know, what Trump or Limbaugh was saying, he's not a Republican, but he's not a Democrat. He's not an ideologue at all. He was saying, if you are an ideologue, if you are going for the most conservative guy, you go for Cruz. Trump has got a sort of a different group. Limbaugh is saying his own words here. Listen.


RUSH LIMBAUGH, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: If conservatism is your bag, if conservatism is the dominating factor in how you vote, there is no other choice for you in this campaign than Ted Cruz. Because you are exactly -- this is the closest in our lifetimes we have ever been to Ronald Reagan.


KELLY: Do you agree with that?

KRAUTHAMMER: Well, I would disagree in the sense that I think Rubio is an authentic conservative. Now, Bush is kind of a reformist conservative.  All of them I think would be comparable to Reagan in 1980. You remember the issues were different in 1980. Immigration was not that big a deal.  On the spectrum, I think that they -- there are several candidates who are conservative.

KELLY: Uh-hm.

KRAUTHAMMER: But I do agree that trump is not a conservative. I think, you know, I mean, he would probably reject that, but I think the record would show he's a Trumpest. He's kind of a what the hellest, meaning, you know, these guys have not succeeded, as he said in a tweet I think today, you elected these guys to the Congress, they made the promises, they haven't kept them. And therefore, he's coming in to solve problems. And it's extremely idiosyncratic what he would do with healthcare. And he's not a traditional conservative. But the mood of the country and the electorate is that people may care a lot less about ideology than about results and he promises results.

KELLY: Now, right now things are starting to get ugly in South Carolina and this is as we have been told. The cutting ads are coming out. Trump cut one against Cruz, which we're going to show, which he just pulled. We don't know why. Maybe he's trying to put more positive. Then Cruz cut one against Trump, which is rough. Watch.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Vera Coking's home was all she had left. But it stood in Donald Trump's way and the limousine parking lot he wanted for his casino. To him, she was a nobody. So Trump schemed with Atlantic City government to force Coking from her home using imminent domain.

JOHN STOSSEL, FOX BUSINESS NETWORK: You're bullying these people out because --  

TRUMP: This is the government case, this is not Donald Trump.

STOSSEL: Yes. It is Donald Trump, it's you and your cronies government working together.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Public power. Private gain.

TRUMP: I've offered her a lot of money --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He doesn't have no heart.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What kind of man talks from both sides of his mouth on amnesty for illegals on national television and still denies it? Who took more than a million dollars in sweetheart loans from Wall Street banks and fails to disclose it as required by law? Who runs a campaign accused of dirty tricks that tried to sabotage Ben Carson with false rumors? Ted Cruz, the worst kind of Washington Insider who just can't be trusted.


KELLY: What do you make of those?

KRAUTHAMMER: Wow, that's pretty heavy stuff.

KELLY: Right?

KRAUTHAMMER: That's dropping all the ordinance out of all your airplanes on day one of the war. This is Pearl Harbor. A double Pearl Harbor.  Look, I think the Cruz ad is very interesting. Because it does two things.  Because it's an idealogical attack for conservatism. Imminent domain is a very resonate word. It's -- I mean, it's sort of our -- but everybody knows, it's the big government coming in and taking away your property for other purposes. And that is sort of a central idea opposing it, at least generally speaking and surely for private gain. Opposing it is a main tenant of conservatism. On the other side, what Trump was doing is hitting Cruz with all of the attacks he did in the debates the other week, and the ones that all the other candidates have leveled against Cruz. I think it's fair stuff. Obviously, you know, a little sharp. I don't think any of these two ads, either of the two ads is untrue. It's a question of what is the mood of the electorate. What do they care the most about?

KELLY: Uh-hm. And the South Carolinians are apparently used to rough and tumble politics, so they may not be too offended by anything they saw there.

KRAUTHAMMER: We'll sit back and enjoy and I don't think anybody will be calling a penalty for unnecessary roughness.


KELLY: Charles, always great to see you.

KRAUTHAMMER: My pleasure.

KELLY: Coming up, a Hollywood legend faces backlash after showing up at a Ted Cruz campaign event. His crime? Trying to be an informed American.  Tonight, Oscar winning actor Richard Dreyfuss and his son speak out to "The Kelly File."

Plus, Ted Cruz's wife gives an interview and talks passionately about religion and politics. Some Cruz critics quickly label it as a rant and bizarre.

Brian Kilmeade has the story making headlines. And a major new headache for Hillary Clinton. Just hours ago, we found out there is yet another investigation with ties to her under way. This one has to do with the Clinton Foundation during her time as secretary of state. And it comes just nine days out from the next big democratic showdown, the Nevada caucuses. Why she is now lowering expectations in that state. Marc Thiessen and Julie Roginsky are here. Don't go away.


KELLY: Developing tonight, an Oscar winning actor under fire for attending a Republican campaign event. Some on the left attacking actor Richard Dreyfuss after he was spotted at a Ted Cruz campaign rally just a few weeks back.

Joining me now, Richard Dreyfuss and his son, Harry Dreyfuss. Harry was so incensed about the criticism that he wrote a post that's gone viral online.  So Harry, I start with you. So, people decided that your dad, a beloved actor, needed to be kicked out of Hollywood, and with things I cannot repeat on national television because they saw him at a Republican campaign event. Why did you write about it?

HARRY DREYFUSS, WRITER AND PRODUCER: Well, so far my political expression has been limited to annoying Facebook rants. But when I saw that people were attacking my dad for his curiosity, it just -- it offended me on principle. And I thought, like, he has taught us that curiosity should be one of our highest values. And they made the mistake of thinking that him being there to see what Ted Cruz had to say that that meant he supported him.

KELLY: Uh-hm.

H. DREYFUSS: But really we should all so highly exalt the ability to go and listen to someone that you disagree with. So I wanted to -- I wanted to stick it to the people who thought that that was not a good thing to do.

KELLY: Good for you. Sticking it to the people is always a good idea when the people are jerks. Richard, you said that some people felt betrayed.  You were raised -- apparently your mother was a socialist, you grandmother was a socialist, your great grandmother was a socialists. You are not a socialist, but you wanted to take in another viewpoint. Were you surprised at the backlash?

RICHARD DREYFUSS, OSCAR-WINNING ACTOR: No, no. Because my other son, Ben, who is an editor for "Mother Jones" magazine, always warmed me never to read comments on the internet --

KELLY: Right.

R. DREYFUSS: -- because they were from people who were dropped on their heads.


H. DREYFUSS: That's true.

KELLY: What were your impressions of Cruz?

H. DREYFUSS: Well, I went to hear whether or not there would be a difference between what I was hearing through the TV camera and live. And what was disappointing is that there was no difference. They sounded equally kind of silly.

KELLY: How about Glenn Beck, we have video of you meeting with Glenn. You sound actually a lot like Glenn Beck in some ways, because you both love the constitution.

R. DREYFUSS: Well, name me someone who doesn't love the constitution.

KELLY: A lot of people like to play fast and loose with it in today's day and age.

R. DREYFUSS: Well, you know, we all feel that we know the constitution better than our neighbors. So -- I have my feelings about it and I've enjoyed listening to him, even though we don't agree on everything.

KELLY: Uh-hm.

R. DREYFUSS: And so when it came up to me that day, I was ripe. You know, I was ready to be talked to.

KELLY: Uh-hm. And that's the thing that you're trying to get to, Harry, is that you think people are too dogmatic in this country today, that they adopt a party platform and once they've adopted it, they don't deviate on any issue, they're not open minded and that others paint them with a brush that may be totally off point.

H. DREYFUSS: Isn't it odd that you think that it's just a coincidence that everybody who believes one thing about being liberal believes every other liberal idea?

KELLY: Right. Like the entire party platform, every single piece? You don't deviate one thing?

H. DREYFUSS: Yes. Exactly. And if you don't deviate, then that's just showing that you haven't thought about it, you've abdicated your responsibility.

KELLY: Uh-hm. So did you make any conclusions, Richard, have you decided -- it doesn't sound like you're going to vote for Ted Cruz. Have you decided who you will support?

R. DREYFUSS: No. I run a nonprofit initiative to bring the study of civics back to the grades below high school graduation.

KELLY: All right. We're going to --

R. DREYFUSS: If we don't know civics in this country, we are giving up knowledge of the greatest political revolution in the history of civilization.

KELLY: Absolutely.

R. DREYFUSS: And it is -- and it is deemed improper to know too much and we don't credit anyone for an answer to why we might be exceptional. If someone tells me that America is exceptional, my response is, if you don't defend that statement and prove it, I'll hit you right in the mouth because -- because people don't think that it needs defending and it does. People on the far right are always saying, we will expect you to love your country because it's South of Canada. And that's no reason.

KELLY: And you've been somebody who has been out there saying that for some time. It's no wonder you got this way, Harry. It's great to meet you both. I can see your dad's pride in you. It's a pleasure to meet you.  Thank you both so much for being here.

H. DREYFUSS: You too. Thank you.

KELLY: By the way, if you have not seen Richard Dreyfuss in ABC's "Madoff," which you can't get on ABC on demand, see it. He does an amazing job. Except you have to watch the commercials, which is kind of annoying.  But it was excellent. Notwithstanding. You can have the popcorn. Have a conversation.

Coming up, a new campaign crisis tonight for Hillary Clinton. Yet another investigation is revealed. This one asking about the Clinton Foundation and what happened there while she was secretary of state. This as team Clinton begins to downplays expectations now in yet another state in which she was supposed to beat Bernie Sanders with ease. Marc Thiessen and Julie Roginsky are here.

And it was one of the worst school shootings in our nation's history. Now for the very first time, the mother of one of the Columbine killers breaks her silence on the guilt, the warning signs, and whether she believes she raised a monster. ABC News Diane Sawyer is here in a "Kelly File" exclusive, with a remarkable interview.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All the kids and the teacher, and I keep thinking constantly how I would feel if it were the other way around.


KELLY: Breaking tonight, days after the FBI officially confirms that it is investigating Hillary Clinton's use of a private e-mail server, yet another investigation into her activities is confirmed. This one by the State Department, which has subpoenaed her family's charitable group, namely the Clinton Foundation.

Catherine Herridge, our chief intelligence correspondent has the report.  Catherine?

CATHERINE HERRIDGE, FOX NEWS CHIEF INTELLIGENCE CORRESPONDENT: Megyn, a rep for the Clinton Foundation confirming to FOX News that they got the subpoena last fall seeking documents about the charity's project and whether they required federal government approval. The subpoena also asks for records about long-time Clinton aide Huma Abedin who in 2012 held four different jobs working for the Clinton Foundation, Clinton's personal office, a State Department as well as an outside consulting firm tied to the Clintons. This on its face says the appearance of a conflict of interest. But late today on CNN, Clinton spokesman attacked State Department investigators.


WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: You're calling it that there's a sort of a plot inside the I.G., the Inspector General's office at the State Department to get Hillary Clinton?

BRIAN FALLON, PRESS SECRETARY, CLINTON CAMPAIGN: All I know is that they have mounted several fishing expeditions style investigations since she decided to run for president, there is no basis to any of them. And I think that it's intended to created headwinds for her campaign. It's not going to work.


HERRIDGE: The foundation says, the State Department investigation is squarely focused on Clinton's aide and not her. Though, there's no way to know who is really under scrutiny. The Washington Post broke this story and it seems to track with the story first reported by Fox News that the FBI probe into Clinton's use of private e-mail, a secretary of state had expanded to public corruption and ties between the State Department and foundation. At the time, Clinton dismissed the report, even though she must have already known about the foundation's subpoena.


HILLARY CLINTON, D-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It's an unsourced, irresponsible, you know, claim that has no basis and it is something that really is without merit and should not have any influence whatsoever in this nominating process.


HERRIDGE: And today, a federal judge give the State Department until the end of the month to release the remaining 3,700 Clinton e-mails. And that's no question more contain classified information and some are likely too damaging to National Security to release in any form -- Megyn.  

KELLY: Wait a minute, Catherine, just to go back. So, that -- you referenced back to that sound like of her. That was the day you reported that there was an inquiry into the Clinton Foundation that they had been subpoenaed and that was her respond to your report because I remember they're saying.

HERRIDGE: Right, right.

KELLY: .it was unsourced, it was irresponsible, it was a claim without basis, it didn't have merit that's the things that was just confirmed today?

HERRIDGE: No. To be clear, we reported that the FBI investigation had two tracks, the e-mail and also the public corruption. When she was asked about that line of inquiry, she dismissed it at that time even though she knew that was a line of inquiry that the state department was investigating.

KELLY: Fascinating. Catherine, thank you.

HERRIDGE: You're welcome.

KELLY: So those revelations come as the former secretary of state campaign is being called out for trying to downplay its standing. In the upcoming primary in Nevada, the caucus is there. One political reporter there is calling a "fear of Bernie Sanders," "I don't smell a rat. I smell something more pungent from the Clinton campaign, fear." Joining me now Marc Thiessen, former Chief Speechwriter to President George W. Bush and Julie Roginsky, Democratic Analyst and also a Fox News contributor, good to see you both.



KELLY: So, all right -- so, there's two things here. The Clinton Foundation is being investigated that they received a subpoena and on top of that, now suddenly Nevada maybe in jeopardy for her, at least they're trying to suggest that it is. We don't know which one is the truth. Mark you take that.

THIESSEN: Well, I mean first of all she had a near-death experience in Iowa, she got trounced in New Hampshire by 22 points and now in Nevada a state that in December poll showed she was winning 19 points, they're suddenly downplaying their chances for success.

So, I think the Clinton campaign is reeling and she says this email investigation -- all this investigation should have no impact on the political campaign. The reality is they are having an impact on the political campaign. And she has an honesty problem among democrats.

If you look at the exit polls in New Hampshire, 50 percent of democratic primary voters said she is not honest or trustworthy. Honesty was the number one issue ahead of electability, ahead of values, ahead of everything, and those voters who said that honesty was the number one issue voted 92 to 6 for Bernie sanders.

That's without him even raising this as an issue. So this is having a massive -- those are stunning members. This is having a massive effect on her campaign and it's going to continue to haunt her.

KELLY: Julie, if you extrapolate that, you know, that number that found her dishonest and said it's actually really important to them to the greater electorate, you're talking about a few million voters. I mean that could make a big difference in the general election.

ROGINSKY: Yes, it certainly can. Look, I mean there's no question that she's got issues that she needs to address starting first and foremost with the lack of message which is something that before we get to the honesty factor we have to get to reason to actually why she's even running and I'm not so sure.





ROGINSKY: .it's 9 o'clock at night -- a little French I know.


ROGINSKY: Thank you. Thanks, Marc. But look I mean she really needs to see the reason as to why she is running. Bernie sanders has articulated his reason very well, you may agree or disagree with it. He's been very clear about the fact that income and equality is the reason that he's in this race. She's been kind of all over the map and so therefore I think there are reasons for her as to why she's not doing well in addition to the reason that you just stated.

You know, as far as the Nevada lowering of expectations and maybe just that and maybe that they are lowering expectations so that she can certainly come in with a huge victory if she doesn't win and say, "Well, look you know, this is really a tough race but I was able to make it a big race and I was able to make it big win for myself".



ROGINSKY: Her campaign is coming out and saying you know it's 80 percent white, right than Nevada is 80 percent white.


ROGINSKY: .and he does better, Bernie does better in states that are mostly white but it's not 80 percent white.

THIESSEN: No, it's not. In fact, Jon Ralston who is the expert on Nevada Politics by Partisan he says that the democratic electorate is expected to be 40 percent minorities. So why is Hillary Clinton lowering expectation that she's going to lose in that state is because she wants to be able to dismiss Nevada as another white state than Bernie Sanders unlike Iowa and New Hampshire?


THIESSEN: .or keeps the tied in and so if he does well in Nevada, it shows that he can win among minorities that's bad news for her going in to the south.

KELLY: Wow, fascinating discussion. Thank you panel.


THIESSEN: Thanks, Megyn.

KELLY: Coming up, the mascot gets arrested mascot I would say for disobeying Sharia law. Look at this picture. Where it happened and why it's sparking major backlash tonight. Brian Kilmeade is here on that and other things. And for the first time on television, the mother of one of the Columbine killers breaks her silence after 17 years. What she says happened inside her home leading up to the attack and the warning she has for every parent. She sat down with ABC's Diane Sawyer and tonight Diane is here with an exclusive preview, don't miss this.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Part of the shock of this was that learning that what I believed and how I lived and how I parented was an invention in my own mind, that it was a completely different world that he was living in.


KELLY: And on Kelly File Exclusive, nearly 17 years ago, the nation was shaken to its core by one of the worst school shootings in our history. Two teenage boys, hell bent on destruction entered Colorado's Columbine High School and murdered 13 innocent people, 12 of them their fellow classmates, the other a beloved teacher.

By the time it was all over, two dozen more had been injured in this attack and the rest of the school was left horrified by what they had just witnessed. As for the two gunmen, they took their own lives.

And now for the very first time on television, the mother of one of the killers is ready to break her silence speaking exclusively to ABC's Diane Sawyer. Watch.

SUE KLEBOLD, MOTHER OF COLUMBINE SHOOTER: Part of the shock of this was that learning that what I believed and how I lived and how I parented was an invention in my own mind, that it was a completely different world that he was living in.

DIANE SAWYER, ABC NEWS ANCHOR: She says not a day goes by she doesn't think of the victims and their families.

KLEBOLD: I just remember sitting there and reading about them -- all these kids, the teacher. And I keep thinking constantly that how I would feel if it were the other way around and one of their children had shot mine. I would feel exactly the way they did, I know I would. I know I would.

KELLY: ABC News Anchor, Diane Sawyer joins me now to discuss her exclusive and eye opening interview with Sue Klebold. Diane good to see you.

SAWYER: It's good to see you here.

KELLY: After all this time, 17 years she breaks her silence and finally goes on camera to talk about this. Just in the clip we saw there, you can see the overwhelming guilt. What was your takeaway?

SAWYER: Bringing shattering lessons learned over so much time and so much regret and so much distance and of course the victim's families their unsurpassed grief. And she said to herself, what can I do except how you want to miss and hope somebody else doesn't miss it.

KELLY: That's the crux of it because every parent wonders what were the signs -- what was there that she didn't see?

SAWYER: She has a magnifying glass out on her life and that's one of the reasons she's been writing this for years because she wanted to go over everything...

KELLY: Because she's writing a book.


SAWYER: She is writing a book called, "A Mother's Reckoning," and reckoning is a very big word in her life right now. And I think one of the thing that will stun you is you're going to go back and see her journals that she was writing and she was writing it in the summer that he was also writing journals, and she's writing about adolescent phases, adolescent phases -- she's writing about his happy times -- he is writing about suicidal depression. He is writing about not being able to go on. He is writing about the fact that he will never find happiness in his life so what is the point?

KELLY: She didn't see it?

SAWYER: She says that -- and this is we've talked to all the experts on this. Adolescents are better at hiding depression than adults are because stigma is so great. They don't get to be different. They can hide it and she wrote what she didn't see often. She's going to take you through this, adolescent depression and we have everybody watching it so far inside ABC News saying, what am I doing at home? Is there something more profound?

KELLY: Was there something -- we like to believe as parents that these parents must have been weird, they must have been bad like they -- because we don't want to believe, right? So, was there something about her that jumped out -- did she seem like a normal parent?

SAWYER: I think when you see her, everyone's first reaction is the same, that's not what I thought she was going to be like, that's not what I thought she was going to look like. So, you know what, the thing -- you have to remember and then we all have to keep remembering it was 17 years ago who knew about this incredible adolescent depression every 95 minutes a young person dies...


KELLY: This was the first big one that put this problem on the map.


KELLY: This temporary America.

SAWYER: It was in so many ways and then of course I want to be clear about this adolescent depression -- suicidal depression is not the pathway to violence. That is something different. And she also has to look at that crossroad.

KELLY: Does she know how it crossed over from one to the other?

SAWYER: You know, she is examining every part of it, so are the experts examining it with us. Of course, Eric Harris was his friend.


SAWYER: .he had a friend.

KELLY: The other killer.

SAWYER: .the other killer was there. And this convergence of the two of them is one of the things we really, really want to study. I will say one thing that I think parents at home were going to be debating big after this, do you respect privacy? Do you ransack the room? And it's going to be a big factor coming up in the section in which she tries to deal with this part.

KELLY: She wrote years ago about thinking back on her child, and in her words.


KELLY: .the monster he became...

SAWYER: Right.

KELLY: .and then the child again. What does that mean? What did she mean by that?

SAWYER: You know, she goes from staring as a child as she dreamed he would be to staring at the murderer he became. And in her heart, she cannot let go of the child she loved so much that she always thought he might be.

KELLY: She said one time, she said very little, but she did write a piece ten years after the shooting saying he left that morning and just said bye, that's it.

SAWYER: Right.

KELLY: And that she concluded he must not have loved me, given what he did. Is that -- is she still in that place?

SAWYER: I think she's very much in bewilderment about the mysteries of that and that is one of them. And there is a tape that ends with this saying, "Hey, mom got to go." And it's addressed to her and so she's living in this incredible contradiction. And you will see this as she goes back and forth and struggles to grapple with who he really was at which times and what she missed and blamed herself for forever.

KELLY: Wow. It's tomorrow night Friday night at 10:00 pm on ABC News and again it takes a look at school shootings, mental health, and the status of America when it comes to warning signs and what we should be looking for in our kids. Diane, thank you so much.

SAWYER: Thank you.

KELLY: Again, tomorrow night 10:00 pm on ABC, incredible. Coming up, Ted Cruz's wife speaks out passionately about her faith. Find out who then quickly labeled her thoughts a rant and bizarre. And if you had to pick a celebrity look alike for Brian Kilmeade, Eric Bolling, and yours truly who would you pick? Believe it or not, Joe Concha did a survey and he has some answers. Brian Kilmeade will tell us what they are. Next.


KELLY: Well, Senator Cruz's wife, Heidi Cruz, gave a radio interview and spoke about her faith. Cue the accusations of how bizarre her "rant" was.

HEIDI CRUZ, SENATOR TED CRUZ WIFE: We are at a cultural cross road in our country then if we can be in this race to show this country the face of the God that we serve -- this Christian God that we serve -- is the foundation of our country. Our country was built on Judeo-Christian values. We are a nation of freedom of religion but the God of Christianity is the God of freedom, of individual liberty, of choice and of consequence.

KELLY: Brian Kilmeade is the co-host of Fox & Friends and author of the big bestseller, Thomas Jefferson and the Tripoli Pirates. There, thank you, James (ph).


KELLY: So, she's a freak according to some because she made that statement.

BRIAN KILMEAD, CO-HOST, "FOX & FRIENDS": Right. I have never heard something so excoriating, so out of line as Heidi Cruz defending her husband and his faith in saying that I would work for him if I wasn't married to him and that our country -- the country feels in crisis in citing religion. And then they go on to say that someone Thomas Jefferson they had in mind -- Jefferson envisioned the wall of separation between church and state. He's not judging says Ken Myer of Mediaite. He's not judging. He just thinks people who disagree are wrong and bad. I didn't get that out of that statement. I've heard it two, three or four times, I see the reaction. I'm a little stunned by it.

KELLY: Can I tell you just picking up on the last segment we did with Diane Sawyer. It is -- it is literally now the point in our country where our children have to go do practice drills where they hide inside the bathrooms.


KELLY: .at their preschools because they might get shot. But if their teacher says a prayer when they're in there, she can get fired. I mean, that's the place we're at right now in 2016 America.

KILMEADE: I agree with you and the blowback on this is bizarre and I get it's unsettling but let's take the callous approach and look at South Carolina and let's see how this plays in South Carolina where in terms to vote who gets into office.

KELLY: But the.

KILMEADE: .in South Carolina.

KELLY: .the separation of church and state is understood by the founders and by regular Americans is nowhere near as vigilant as unforgiving as some in this country are now arguing. There is room for some expression of faith.

KILMEADE: There always has been and Ted Cruz goes on to say that Judeo Christian values are -- it just say they do not make up the constitution or the founding fathers in their school of thought is a historical revisionism, they would downplay the role of Christianity faith in Judeo- Christian values.

It's been there, it is there yet we continue to debate it there. But the bottom line is when you go into the voting booth when you decide to caucus, whatever you decide to do, pretty much America is making their decision to sign more with the so-called, crazy Heidi Cruz and Ted Cruz.

And especially in South Carolina where they seem to make their own decisions and they're in this finest hour and they're deciding.


KELLY: .even angelical. All right, let's move on to something else. Something weird happened with the mascot. What was it?

KILMEADE: Well, it was really simple. In Saudi Arabia, there was a little bit of a problem. They have the Saudi Arabian committee for the promotion of virtue and the prevention of vice and they cracked down on that mascot and you can see why.

KELLY: What kind of mascot is that?

KILMEADE: That is a mascot celebrating the launching of a brand new candy shop young lady.

KELLY: Okay.

KILMEADE: And that sweet shop, it's big news in the capital of Riyadh, but there's something wrong with that mascot. There is no veil. And because there is no veil, it's a violation of the virtue code. Therefore, he -- he is a guy dressed as a woman, ended up in the back of the squad car because it's a violation of Sharia law.

KELLY: Come on.

KILMEADE: If you, you know, if you let one mascot go, they're all going to go crazy. I mean we've been over this. It's unbelievably.

KELLY: Cover yourself. Wait, got to get to this quickly, doppelgangers -- Joe Concha in Mediaite -- so me, I'm sorry, it took a hit and you got promoted in the same segment.


KELLY: .doppelgangers, let's see a couple of them. Let's see -- who do we have first?

KILMEADE: Who looks alike and the first one would be.


KILMEADE: .this is Megyn Kelly.

KELLY: My long hair.

KILMEADE: And one of the people from.


KILMEADE: So, that's Elsa.

KELLY: Of course, I can see. Who do we have next?

KILMEADE: That is Eric -- then you see Eric Bolling and David Hasselhoff.

KELLY: Oh, very nice.

KILMEADE: Now, I asked the people of Twitter who I look like and I came up overwhelmingly with this.

KELLY: Let's see. Stand by. The drama.

KILMEADE: Oh, no. That's something.


KILMEADE: That's Anderson Cooper.

KELLY: .but that's pretty good.

KILMEADE: Yes, that's Anderson Cooper, that's somebody else.


KELLY: Let's see.


KILMEADE: Will Smith, that's pretty much -- it's pretty overwhelming, John Ringer. I oftentimes get tables in restaurants because I was.

KELLY: I can see some resemblance there.


KELLY: .like maybe the ears.

KILMEADE: You have to adjust your set, but if you have to.


KILMEADE: .keep to the side I mean, it's very obvious, I think. So both -- we both will be at the Oscars.

KELLY: It's great to see you.

KILMEADE: Right. Great to see you.

KELLY: Brian Kilmeade everybody. We'll be right back.


KELLY: So who do you think your doppelganger is, let us know at and follow me on Twitter @megynkelly and do you think in the next, "Frozen" movie Elsa should cut her hair? Let me know what you think. I'm Megyn Kelly. This is "The Kelly File."

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