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Kelly File

Former spy thinks US is likely next on ISIS list; Fiorina blasts Obama's handling of threat

This is a rush transcript from "The Kelly File," November 17, 2015. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

MEGYN KELLY, HOST: Breaking tonight, new details coming in on a new terror threat overseas. Stepped up security here at home, incredible new suggestions that the deadly attacks in Paris may have just been a test run.

Welcome to "The Kelly File," everyone. I'm Megyn Kelly. German officials tonight say, they had specific incredible information that terrorists were planning to attack a soccer stadium in Hanover just a few hours ago with both automatic weapons and explosives. The stadium was evacuated, the teams were rushed to a secure location and Chancellor Angela Merkel who was supposed to attend this event was diverted before she arrived. That came just hours after the head of Russia's security service just confirmed that a homemade bomb took out that passenger jet over Egypt roughly two weeks ago, killing more than 220 men, women and small children with the Islamic State terror group claiming responsibility for that act of terror.

Add to that atrocity, another 43 dead in Beirut route and 239 wounded when two attackers with suicide vests blew themselves up less than 500 feet apart in the heart of the Lebanese capital. A third would-be bomber was captured and claimed the three came from ISIS. It happened less than 24 hours before Paris and got almost no attention in the American media. Back in France, police are now circulating a photo of one of the suicide attackers who targeted the French National Stadium. And just hours ago announced that new surveillance video revealed that there is now a second assailant on the loss.

His plan police say was to potentially conduct a separate attack that did not go off. Now, add together those events, and you realized that the Islamic State terror group has now murdered almost 400 innocent in these three attacks injuring more than 700 in just a few weeks. Many of them critically injured. Then they issued a new threat to America yesterday, specifically mentioning Washington, D.C. We got word earlier today that the D.C. metro system has stepped up screening for explosives and adding officers to the system.

Plus, we are hearing from lawmakers that they are being encouraged to travel underground to get to the capitol if possible and to avoid being seen outside. New York also says, it has added a hundred cops to its anti- terror unit already with another 400 officers on the way. All of which led the normally reserved Diane Feinstein the top democrat to the Senate Intel committee to earlier share this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. DIANNE FEINSTEIN, D-CALIF., VICE CHAIR, SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTEL:  I don't want to make everybody nervous. But I feel the same way I felt before 9/11, that something very well could happen here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KELLY: And the senator is not the only one worried about our security. Earlier today, we spoke with a former counterterrorism expert with the FBI. A young man who actually helped take down Robert Hanson, perhaps the most notorious spy in the U.S. history. They made a movie about this. And this guy suggested that Paris may have been just be a test run, a practice session for something in the United States. In moments, we will be joined by Morten Storm, a former member of al-Qaeda turned double agent for the C.I.A.

But first, Trace Gallagher just got done speaking with that FBI agent.

TRACE GALLAGHER, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Megyn, almost across the board, terrorism experts say there is nothing new or innovative about the Paris attacks. But when it comes to National Security, that's a problem because unlike al-Qaeda that wanted big spectacular explosions, experts say it appears ISIS is willing to settle for low-tech mayhem that results in high value returns like shutting down the borders of a major city. CIA Director John Brennan says, the Paris attacks are not the only operation ISIS has in the pipeline. And while that has certainly raised anxiety, experts said the big worry shouldn't be, how many are planned, but rather how come nobody saw the last one coming? A short time ago, we spoke to a former F.B.I. investigative specialist or ghost as he was known at the time, he spent years following terrorists and dealing with terror issues.  He says ISIS has clearly gone to school on how to conceal their activities.  Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERIC O'NEILL, FORMER FBI COUNTER-TERRORISM AND COUNTERINTELLIGENCE OPERATIVE: That suggests that ISIS has learned. They know how we look at information. They know how we're gathering intelligence and they've leapt one step ahead of security which is what criminals do. And they found a new way to communicate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GALLAGHER: So while the intelligence world is monitoring chatter on cell phones and the Internet, ISIS is learning how to communicate through video games and other encrypted technology. Eric O'Neill is also convinced that Paris was only a test saying the only way to get on top on the situation is to stop underestimating the enemy. Listen.  

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

O'NEILL: We tend to think of ISIS as a rag tag assortment of terrorists who are trying to carry out God knows what around the world.  But what we've seen from Paris is that this is a coordinated, well-funded, well-orchestrated terrorist group who created a plan that worked extremely well and they were quite good in their execution.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GALLAGHER: It worked well and to bring this full circle, FBI Director James Comey says, there are currently open investigations against ISIS in all 50 states -- Megyn.

KELLY: Hmm. Trace, thank you. Well, Mr. O'Neill thinks that Paris was just a test. But our next guest, a former member of al-Qaeda and Yemen who was once so entrenched in terror, he was trusted with finding Anwar al- Awlaki, a wife says not only does he think the U.S. is likely next on the list but an attack on American soil is likely to unfold over the next two weeks.

Morten Storm is a onetime terrorist turned CIA double agent. He is co-author "Agent Storm: My Life Inside al Qaeda and The CIA." Morten, thank you for being here. Why do you put such a specific time frame on it, two weeks?

MORTEN STORM, FORMER CIA DOUBLE AGENT INSIDE AL QAEDA: I do it because the people -- that who are on the run at the moment, from ISIS in Europe are very desperate. And they know that time is up. And they will need to do it as -- as possible. And for that I believe that, within the two weeks, next two weeks that we will have -- we have just seen in German and now in Hanover that there's a very strong evidence that foreign issues have stopped the terror attack. So, it's quite severe in Europe now. And I also believe that copy cats in America will do their best to do what they've probably have done in Europe.

KELLY: Because I know you believe that -- and you've worked with them, you know these people. If in their minds America is the real trophy?

STORM: Yes, you know, when I infiltrated these people. You need to understand their mind, you need to understand you know, their mentality of them. How do they think in order to predict what they want to do? And that was my success in my work. You know, I was one of the best. I am saying quite confidently that I believe that something within the next two weeks will happen.

KELLY: Could they do something in your view as coordinated here in the states as we saw in Paris?

STORM: You see, it's a bit different from over there because your borders are quite tighter. But you have also a lot of weapons like handguns, machine guns, the people to get hold off. And we have seen that before that, you will have loan wolf attacking, you know, the barracks, from the army and all the places. But I think this time, we can also like target the civilians such in, you know, shopping malls and other places like we have seen in France.

KELLY: How conscious do you think they are of the fact that we're going into a holiday season here in America that happens to be a religious holiday for many millions.

STORM: Yes, but that's what they want. This is terrorism. So, the terrorists wants to scare, wants to make people afraid to live a normal live. So what they do is to -- to terrorize them mentally. So they're too afraid to go outside. You know, Prophet Muhammad say in Hadees, in Sahel Bugatti, and this one here. He said -- victorious by terror. This is the same for Prophet Muhammad which 99 percent of all -- will be followed. So, he say it in this book here, I have been made notorious by terror. So what he means is he terrorized his enemies so they were scared of him. Even if their names were not there but he was just scared of him.

KELLY: There's no thought whatsoever. There's no -- they don't follow any conventional battle lines. There's no women and children exception. I mean, they go shoot up anybody.  

STORM: Yes. Again, I would quote from here because I do not want people to think that I am saying some different -- in this book here, Sahih Al Bukhari, Hadith (ph) number 3012. A book number is full of Jihad (ph) - - it says that it is permissible if it serves to cause to kill women, children and babies --

KELLY: Is this radical Islam? Is this what you're talking, radical Islam?

STORM: No. You know, this is fundamentalistic, this is literally in the book. This is in the book. So, this is not me saying it or somebody else. This is Prophet Muhammad who orders and I say it's permissible to kill civilians, even children and babies if it justifies the course.

KELLY: I mean, Morten, how is civilization supposed to combat a group like that?

STORM: See, that's what I'm trying to call for a reformation of Islam. Islam is to be reformed. Islam is today, it's violent, it's intolerant and very dangerous to the whole world. It's a supremacist, you know, ideology which has the aim of being totalitarian like taking over the world. I mean, let me just quote something from the Koran here. You know?  This is Surah number eight Al-Anfal versus 39, and it says, "And fight them until there is no fitnah -- means disbelief of all the religion besides Allah -- and the religion, along with me for Allah. So, in Islam, in the Koran, Allah encouraged the Muslims to keep on fighting until there are no religion left. That means everything is left out.  

KELLY: Every now in Muslim is -- and every now in Muslim needs to be eliminated.

STORM: So, I do not understand. I do not understand how we make peace for these people as long as they believe in this.  

KELLY: Morten, thank you.

STORM: You're welcome. Thank you very much.

KELLY: A breaking tonight. New fallout after Secretary of State John Kerry in condemning this Paris attacks compared them to the terror attack in France last winter which she suggested were, quote, "Legitimate or rational."

Former U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations John Bolton is here on remarks that he is calling reprehensible.

Plus, we just got details moments ago from a 90 minute conversation between the White House and some of the more than 30 governors who are now saying no to taking any Syrian refugees. Marc Thiessen is here with the breaking news on how that went.

And then, when President was asked about changing strategy in the fight against terror, he suggested we need to think of the troops to U.S. veterans including one who ended up badly injured on the battlefield joins us next with the powerful reaction to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: Maybe part of the reason is because every few months I go to Walter Reed. And I see a 25-year-old kid who was paralyzed or has lost his limbs."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN, R-ARIZ.: What should now be clear is our people and our allies will not be safe until ISIL is destroyed, not just degraded but destroyed not eventually, but as soon as possible.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KELLY: That was Vietnam veteran and U.S. Senator John McCain blasting President Obama's strategy to defeat the Islamic State. The speech on the Senate floor came less than 24 hours after the President defended his approach and shared one reason why he does not want to change.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: And maybe part of the reason is because every few months, I go to Walter Reed and I see a 25-year-old kid who's paralyzed or has lost his limbs. And some of those are people I've ordered into battle. And so I can't afford to play some of the political games that others may. Folks want to pop off and have opinions about what they think they would do, present a specific plan.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KELLY: Pete Hegseth is a Fox News contributor and Iraq and Afghanistan war veteran and CEO of Concerned Veterans for America. And Sergeant Robert Bartlett is an Iraq war veteran who spent four-and-a-half years recovering at Walter Reed after his Humvee was hit by an IED. Thank you both so much for being here.

Pete, you say you found those comments infuriating. Why?

PETE HEGSETH, CEO, CONCERNED VETERANS FOR AMERICA: I heard from a lot of other vets, too. Listen, vets will take tough missions. They'll deal with difficult circumstances, but they don't want to be pitied or used as an excuse for inaction or weakness. Literally step back and basically said, because we might face casualties, because it might be difficult, I'm not willing to do what is necessary to defeat this vicious, vicious enemy.  I'm not going to speak for Sergeant Bartlett but I served with a lot of other guys. Like a lot of them in a battlefield. They did it because they believe in what they were fighting for --

ROBERT BARTLETT, IRAQ WAR VETERAN: That's right.

HEGSETH: And they believe in the freedom we have. They knew it could cost them everything up and to and including their life. And they don't want their commander-in-chief standing up and saying, don't send us because we might be harmed. They will do whatever they need to do to win. And right now, their commander-in-chief is throwing them under the bus.

KELLY: Sergeant, you were injured in just a terrible way fighting over in Iraq. You were cut in half from the Left corner of your temple, it broke your body, you had third degree burns on your face and your hands.  Four-and-a-half weeks of surgery at Walter Reed. Why -- I mean, do you understand the President was trying to say, he is the one who has to give the order for guys like you to go fight and he is the one who has to look you in the eye and explain why he did it.

BARTLETT: Yes, the reality is he doesn't live in the reality. He's not living what is true. The truth is is that ISIL and Islamic terrorists want to kill us. Military trains to fight these people. I signed up and knew what I was going into. I went into this war and knowing what I was getting into, that I may get injured. That I many not come home alive.  And to me, I was built for it. I wish I was there right now. It was the best thing I ever did in my life.

KELLY: Really?

BARTLETT: Yes. We need to get politicians out of the way. Let the generals and the subject matter experts who fight wars, fight the wars and get what we need and what we ask for when we ask for it. Get out of the way, let us win the war and quit playing politics. That's what happened in Vietnam, Korea and then this war. Politics keep getting people killed.

KELLY: The thing is Pete, the President continues to suggest that his policy is working. And that those who want to pop off with these alternate demands don't know what they're talking about. In response to which John McCain and that speech he gave today said, for example, he said, were these people popping off? And here's just an example of some of those soundbites that Senator McCain referenced today. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it's now crystal clear to us that our strategy, our policy vis a vis ISIS is not working and it's time to look at something else.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I've never been more concerned. I read the intelligence faithfully. ISIL is not contained. ISIL is expanding.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are not only failing, we are, in fact, losing this war.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KELLY: Hmm. Your thoughts?

HEGSETH: Those things with heavy hearts. I mean, it's not as if people want to send men off the war for the sake of going off to war. I mean, was Winston Churchill popping off? Was John F. Kennedy popping off when he says, we'd be paying price and burying burden. This is about understanding the gravity of the threat we face. Being smart about how you approach it. But they're not treating your troops like victims which is exactly what you heard off the lips of our commander-in-chief's. As if in Iraq or elsewhere, we've just been victims of reckless foreign policy. Now maybe we believe in what we were fighting for and maybe we understood more than most Americans that radical Islamist are coming for us and you know, we defeat them there or come for us in Paris and the United States. That's a pretty serious thing. I don't think Barack Obama understands it.

KELLY: Well, that's the question, Sergeant is, you know, we may be looking at casualties if we send men and women to fight. And we may be looking at them if we don't.

BARTLETT: That's our job. Casualties happen. That's a reality. We accept that. We raised our right hands knowing that. We swore to protect this nation, the people of this nation and the constitution of the United States. And we will spend our lives doing it. I held that ought and I'm going to continue to hold that ought. I'm going to announce when things and policies are bad. Whenever I'm giving the shot and I appreciate you're giving me the shot now.

KELLY: We are the ones who appreciate you.

HEGSETH: Amen.

KELLY: And your father's service in Vietnam and your grandfather's service in World War II and so many of our military members had come from long lines of proud military families. Thank you for giving us your time tonight you guys and for your service.

HEGSETH: Thank you, Kelly.

BARTLETT: Thank you.

KELLY: Well, Secretary of State John Kerry is taking serious fire tonight after seeming to suggest that the terror attacks in Paris last winter, remember after the magazine "Charlie Hebdo" was attacked, were more rational or legitimate than what we saw last week. Ambassador John Bolton has some thoughts on that, next.

And later, both sides of the debate are here after Donald Trump suggests that shutting down some American mosques may be in order to combat the spread of American Islam.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, R-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You're going to have to watch and study the mosques because a lot of talk is going on at the mosques.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KELLY: Breaking tonight, outrage already building after Secretary of State John Kerry makes what some say are shocking comments about a terror attack on France that happened last winter. In January, Islamic extremists stormed the offices of the Charlie Hebdo magazine which had published cartoons of Muhammad. The terrorist killed 12 people, wounding nearly a dozen more. Today, Secretary Kerry said, quote, "There's something different about what happened from Charlie Hebdo. And I think everybody would feel that. There was a sort of particularized focus. And perhaps even a legitimacy in terms of not a legitimacy, but a rationale that you could attach yourself to somehow and say okay, they're really angry because of this and that. This Friday was absolutely indiscriminate. It wasn't to agree one particular sense of wrong. It was to terrorize people."

Ambassador John Bolton is a FOX News contributor and a former U.S. ambassador to the United Nations. Ambassador, your thoughts on that?

AMB. JOHN BOLTON, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N.: Well, I think it was completely reprehensible. I think Secretary Kerry made the classic Washington mistake. He said exactly what he believes. I think you can understand now very clearly what informs the Obama administration's inept and feckless policy towards international terrorism. Because in a sense, they think that the terrorists have been proposed by the west. Charlie Hebdo writes cartoons that make them so angry that they respond by killing innocent people. So, it's a kind of moral equivalence that really is stomach churning. And just as bad, he's wrong.

But the terrorism that we saw on Paris on Friday was well coordinated.  Well carried out. The only difference between Friday's terrorism and the Charlie Hebdo attacks was that Friday's was bigger and perhaps promises more to come. But this kind of statement by Secretary Kerry, to the staff of the U.S. Embassy in Paris reflects where the Obama administration sense of terrorism really stems from.

KELLY: He goes on to say, you know, now sort of he gets it. And for what? Why did they kill all those Parisians on Friday? It was to attack everything we stand for. What's the grievance? That we're not who they are? Yes. But he didn't seem to get that after Charlie Hebdo. Nor did he seem to get it Ambassador you tell me, after we saw Benghazi. And the wanted to have the filmmaker arrested for ostracizing free speech rights because there is no -- it is not illegal to mock the Prophet Muhammad here in the United States.

BOLTON: Yes. Well, I think the comment about Charlie Hebdo shows that he does think there is a kind of legitimacy. Again, he spoke to word that was on his mind. He realized it was the wrong one. But functionally, there is no different between saying it's a rationale or it's legitimate.  Here's what the policy on terrorism should be. There is no excuse ever for the intentional killing of the innocence civilians whether they draw cartoons that offend you, whether their way of life offends you, whatever it is. And it's because people are willing to commit terrorism for those kinds of reasons that they pose such a threat to us.

KELLY: We are waiting reaction from the State Department. We have reached out to them, giving them a chance to clarify or take it back.

BOLTON: Good luck.

KELLY: Yes.

BOLTON: Good luck.

KELLY: Yes. So far we haven't heard anything. Ambassador, thanks for being here.

BOLTON: Thank you.

KELLY: Well, just moments ago, while we were on the air, President Obama slams the Republican candidates who are objecting to taking Syrian refugees here in America. Carly Fiorina is here live. We will ask her for her reactions. She is minutes away.

And up next, we will have the late breaking details on a White House conference call with the more than 30 governors who are now refusing to cooperate with the President's plan to bring more Syrians to live here in the United States.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KELLY: Well, late-breaking details tonight on a White House conference call with more than 30 governors who are refusing to take in Syrian refugees. Those governors are citing security issues because one of the Paris terrorists is believed to have posed as a refugee, maybe. The White House says the call lasted half -- an hour and a half and they say that the administration was able to provide a lot more details on screening message. In a minute we'll be discussing this with former presidential speechwriter Marc Thiessen and former assistant secretary of defense Larry Korb, but we begin with William La Jeunesse who is reporting from Los Angeles.

WILLIAM LA JEUNESSE, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Megyn, it comes down to trust. And right now, some 30 governors and many republicans in Congress do not trust the Syrian refugee program to do an adequate background check that will guarantee that the 10,000 refugees the president wants to bring in are not going to do us harm. Because the problem is you only know what you know. You can't do a background check when there is no background to check. When no documents are available because they were destroyed in places where we don't have access to fingerprints or intelligence, to confirm that the people are who they claim to be.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What we want from the administration is assurances that we can properly (inaudible) and screen these individuals before we bring 10,000 Syrians into the United States. Just as they pose a threat to Europe, they potentially can pose a threat to the United States.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LA JEUNESSE: Now the White House is putting on a full court (ph) press trying to turn this thing around, it had a conference call today asking governors to back off, and I was on the conference with senior officials who assured us. The U.S. only accepts refugees whose identities can be confirmed, to multiple interviews and an intelligence data bases. They say officials personally reviewed files to reveal inconsistencies. Over half the applicants they say are rejected because something doesn't add up.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARK TONER, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESMAN: The vast majority of these refugees are victims of the very same violence that we saw in Paris and, frankly, have been living and dealing with a level of violence, a level of brutality, of suffering and sacrifice that's incomprehensible to us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LA JEUNESSE: Now, the feds run this program. They brought in about 300 Syrians in the last six weeks, most to California, Texas, Kentucky and Arizona. Officials know where the next group is going, but refused to tell me today. Now the governors, who do not have the legal authority to deny entry, oppose a program but have not said officially that they will try to block it. Congress however, has taken up their fight. House Speaker Paul Ryan will hold a vote this week on legislation calling for a contemporary halt in the refugee program. Megyn, it's not over.

KELLY: Well, joining me now with more, Marc Thiessen, Fox News contributor and former chief speechwriter for President George W. Bush, and Larry Korb, a senior fellow at the Center for American Progress and a former assistant secretary of defense under President Reagan. Welcome to you both. So Marc, let me start with this. So the president comes out and says this is shameful that these governors, these republicans who want to grandstand on this and deny Syrian refugees is shameful -- your thoughts.

MARC THIESSEN, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Yeah, let's remember why we have a refugee crisis in the first place. It's because for five years, Barack Obama stood on the sideline while Syria burned. He did nothing while ISIS being power. He did nothing while Assad gases people. He did nothing while 300 -- nearly 300,000 people, innocent men, women and children were massacred, and that is why we have a refugee crisis today. And now, he stands there and lectures these governors and said that they have betrayed American values because they are raising legitimate security concerns about his ability to vet these refugees, to make sure that ISIS isn't using them to infiltrate terrorism to the country. So spare me the more outrage, you caused this crisis, Mr. President.

KELLY: What about that, Larry, we did reports on this show for months and months while the Syrian Civil War was raging before while it was just Assad (inaudible) murdering his own civilian populations. We did reports on how they lined up -- his forces lined up families and shot the children in the head in front of their parents and then vice versa, at the next household. And so, is the president really in a position to be morally outraged about the United States and some of these republicans not wanting to take in some of the refugees?

LARRY KORB, CENTER FOR AMERICAN PROGRESS: Well, I think he is because of the fact, for example, we've taken in a hundred thousand people from Iraq, there were 4 million refugees created by our necessary invasion and occupation. The Europeans have taking in and all for a lot. We're only taking in about 10,000 total and it's an 18 to 24.

KELLY: But the point is there, if he cared so much, why he was letting Assad gas his own people without doing anything.

KORB: Well, first of all, because he did not want to get us involved in another civil war in which there's no end to it and in which you've caused more problems getting in. Compare what happened in Iraq to Syria. Iraq was 4 million people were displaced, OK? And basically, we took in a hundred thousand of them because to -- because of the damage we caused. We're only talking about like the 10,000 people in here, and basically you said 18 to 24 month vetting process. You know.

KELLY: What about that, Marc, because you've heard some testimonials that the vetting process is lengthy, extensive, and that we have identified any terrorist who've come in, thanks to Syria, and even in Paris. You tell what is it all big headache because, at worst, it appears that one of the eight or nine terrorists may have been a Syrian refugee. The main problem was not refugees.

THIESSEN: No, it not. The refugees aren't the problem. I mean, look, nine -- let's positive, the 99 percent of these people maybe more, are innocent men, women and children who are fleeing terrorism and fleeing ISIS, absolutely true. It only takes one or two to get through to be the ISIS terrorist to bring the violence we're seeing in Paris, to our streets and our shores right now. Everybody wants to help these people. It's not a question of not -- people not wanting to help these people, it's the fact that they don't trust Barack Obama to vet them, for two reasons; one because he is consistently gotten to terrorist threat wrong. This is a guy who just told us the other day that ISIS was contained. He called them the JV squad. He's consistently underestimated them; and second, his own administration officials say that we can't properly vet them. The director of the National Counterterrorism Center testified just last month, he said, this is a quote. "The intelligence picture we have of this particular conflict zone is not as rich as we would like you to be, and obviously, when you screen and vet, you screen and vet against the available intelligence." We don't have the intelligence to know who these people are.

KELLY: Larry?

KORB: Yes, we do. And as a matter of fact, as we pointed out.

THIESSEN: You know better than the National Counterterrorism Center?

KORB: Wait a second, OK? Let me finish. I don't interrupt you. Basically, if you can't vet them, you don't let them in. And we have never had, we taken in 3 million refugees in '75, never had a problem. The problem we have, a homegrown terrorist, Major Hassan for example, the Tsarnaev brothers with the Boston bombings. The biggest terrorist attack we ever in this country was a former army veteran, Timothy McVeigh. And the president is right, if you go and say these things, well, we'll only let the Christian in there, you're going to lose the struggle against ISIS which is really about values and ideology, and it's not gonna be solved militarily.

KELLY: OK. The Oklahoma City bombing was not bigger than 9/11. So let's just clear that up, but thank you both for being here, I got to go.

(CROSSTALK)

KELLY: Earlier today, Donald Trump got attention for suggesting that we might have to close a mosque in America, in order to combat Islamic extremism. We'll have that debate just ahead.

Plus, Carly Fiorina had been slamming President Obama response to ISIS in the wake of the Paris attacks. She is here next with her take on this terror army and to react to the president's hit we just got on the GOP field.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KELLY: Breaking tonight, new questions for Donald Trump after the republican frontrunner yesterday, suggested that he would strongly consider shutting down certain mosques in the U.S. to prevent the spread of homegrown terror.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: We're going to have to watch and study the mosques because a lot of talk is going on at the mosques. And from what I heard in the old days, meaning a while ago, we had great surveillance going on in and around mosques.

JOE SCARBOROUGH, MSNBC "MORNING JOE" SHOW HOST: Wait. Let me stop. Chris, did you -- you did a lot of reporting this week, and I think I picked up this weekend that actually the French had said they will shut down mosques that.

CHRIS JANSING, NBC NEWS SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: That they -- that have radical leadership.

SCARBOROUGH: Is that something that you would consider doing as president?

TRUMP: Well, I would hate to do it, but it's something that you're going to have to strongly consider because some of the ideas and some of the hatred, the absolute hatred is coming from these areas.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KELLY: Katrina Pierson is the national spokeswoman for the Trump campaign. Saba Ahmed is the president and founder of the Republican Muslim Coalition. Good to see you both. All right, so Katrina, let me start with this. The argument against that, one of them is back to the First Amendment. We have freedom of religion, we have freedom of speech, and we're opening up a very dangerous door if we get the government getting to go into a religious institution and decide what amounts to hate speech.

KATRINA PIERSON, NATIONAL SPOKESPERSON, TRUMP CAMPAIGN: Well, Megyn, we don't have the right to plot terrorism and kill Americans, but just let me give you a quick example from the not too distant past. We have the Boston bombers whose parent came in with these as refugees, who escaped this mass surveillance program. They belong to a mosque in Cambridge. The president and founder of that mosque was Abdul Rahman al-Amoudi, who is now doing 23 years in prison for plotting a terrorist attacks in 2004. Also from that mosque Aafia Siddiqui who went to MIT, who was plotting a chemical attack on New York City. He is doing 86 years in prison.

KELLY: Saba, what about that?

PIERSON: Not to mention.

(CROSSTALK)

KELLY: Even experts like Andrew McCarthy who studied this have said that the mosques tend to be hotbeds for political activity, not as much religious activity.

SABA AHMED, PRESIDENT, REPUBLICAN MUSLIM COALITION: Megyn, we go to the mosque to pray. It's absolutely horrifying to hear that our constitutional rights of free exercise of religion are now going to be challenged just because somebody thinks that there, may be some attendees who may disagree with your views. But the thing is like you wouldn't shut down churches just because there were one or two Christians who were acting badly. The mosque has nothing to do with the terrorists. Yes, there are people who misuse the religion for their perverted ideology, but that's not -- that has nothing to do with my faith.

KELLY: But what about the point that it's only the mosques that have the extremist leaders?

AHMED: Megyn, the mosque that she was just talking about, the one in Boston has thousands of Muslims of Americans working very hard in that area. We have lawyers, doctors, engineers, every -- civil society, everybody is working hard to be good American citizens. And to think that, you know, just because there was a few people that may have been associated with terrorism that came to that church, that does not give you the permission to shut down.

KELLY: I'll give you the last word Katrina, go ahead.

PIERSON: Megyn, it's not a few people. It's not a few people. It is the founder of that mosque that is in prison right now today for plotting terrorism. And not to mention the one that followed after him. That this is.

(CROSSTALK)

PIERSON: It's no different than a Christian church. It's no different than a Mormon church. You had the DOJ investigate Mormon churches.

(CROSSTALK)

KELLY: Why go after the individual as opposed to the mosque? You go after the individual is the argument.

AHMED: Exactly. And have also Trump visit a local mosque in New York or Washington, D.C. I think to Mr. Trump has so many business dealings all over the Middle East. He's worked with Muslims. He knows we are good hardworking people. You cannot alienate the Muslim-American voters by targeting.

KELLY: That's for Carly Fiorina.

PIERSON: It's not about alienation. You have to investigate.

KELLY: Quickly.

PIERSON: And you have to implement due process. If it's one person, fine, but if it's the entire mosque, it needs to be shut down.

KELLY: Thank you both for a thoughtful debate. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KELLY: So what do you think? Should we be banning the Syrian refugees? And should we be looking at closing some mosques? Facebook.com/thekellyfile with your thoughts. Thanks for watching everyone. I'm Megyn Kelly, this is "The Kelly File," see you tomorrow.

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