Christie: Not making main debate helping campaign; Abdul-Jabbar slams Carson's policies

Presidential candidate explains on 'The Kelly File' how his campaign has raised more money


This is a rush transcript from "The Kelly File," November 9, 2015. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

MEGYN KELLY, HOST: Breaking tonight: We're just getting word for some bad news for President Obama on his executive action on immigration. That executive action which he had hoped would prevent an estimated 5 million illegal immigrants from being deported.

Just finding out now that in a 2-1 decision, the Fifth Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals has ruled against the administration's executive action, upholding a lower court injunction from a judge in Texas.

Reaction is already coming in fast on this. The Texas governor calling the court's decision a, quote, "vindication for the rule of law and the Constitution."

Judge Andrew Napolitano will be here with what it means. He's dissecting the 160-page ruling which has a dissent. He'll be here in moments.

More On This...

Also breaking tonight: reports surfacing in just the last couple of hours that would appear to vindicate Dr. Ben Carson, at least to some extent in the latest high-profile attack on his life story, as a growing number of major media outlets are doing some damage control in what some are already calling the 2015 version of a, quote, "high-tech lynching".

Welcome to "The Kelly File," everyone. I'm Megyn Kelly.

The attacks on Dr. Ben Carson started in earnest last week when CNN invested the bulk of an entire broadcast day to reports that suggested Dr. Carson made up part of his past, including specifically a violent attack that he says became a life-changing moment.

The problem, we have since learned, that a 1997 profile of Dr. Carson, in it, the story he told that was challenged by the CNN reporting was corroborated by his own mother in a paper.

Then, on Friday, a "Politico" headline claimed Carson fabricated a story about a West Point scholarship, except Carson did not admit any such thing. The headline got pulled and other media outlets shot new holes in the piece over the weekend.

Then, The Wall Street Journal weighed in, this time investigating a story from Carson's book about a prank he says was played on him and others at Yale. The Journal says it could not confirm any of Carson's story about this prank but just hours ago, a classmate of Dr. Carson's came forward to say the prank happened pretty much exactly as Dr. Carson claimed.

Within 24 hours or with 24 hours to go until the next Republican debate, the attention is again on how the media is handling the GOP field, and we have got a powerful lineup for you tonight, including Michelle Malkin is here.

Welcome back, Michelle.

Howie Kurtz, Governor Chris Christie and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is here to talk about the piece he just filed on Dr. Carson.

First, though, we talk to Chris Stirewalt, our Fox News digital politics editor.

Chris, thank you for being here.

So, the thing about Carson in particular, he talks about the prank, right, where he went -- he went to take a test and it wasn't a real test. He went because the student journal published at Yale said, your final compass got thrown out. Something happened to them, got a retake them.

He says, "I showed up to take the test and all the students got up and walked out because the new test was so ridiculous nobody could have passed it. I stayed. I finished the test. The instructor came over and said congratulations on being the last honest man, gave me $10, the instructor, as a reward and somebody took my picture."

The Journal said it wasn't true, wasn't true at all. Carson puts on his Facebook page the actual -- the actual newspaper article talking about the big hoax that had been played on -- got the name of the class wrong, a couple of details, not entirely right. But between this and another person who went to school with him saying, "I was the one who did the whole hoax, paid the ones money who stayed, most of the class walked out. This is why we did it. Told them the exams have been lost. The new exam we gave was impossible."

They are not all checking out and Dr. Carson bit by bit is getting rehabilitated.

CHRIS STIREWALT, FOX NEWS DIGITAL POLITICS EDITOR: Not only is he getting rehabilitated, not since Bo and Luke Duke has anybody gotten out of more tight scrapes with more dramatic flourishes than Ben Carson on this thing.

Every time they say "Oh, we've got him this time, we've got him this time, he's done for sure", here comes the General Lee flying over the washed out bridge and lands on the other side and gets out of the car, guess what, and here's actually the article and here's where I was right and here's this and the other thing, and I have -- it's making them so crazy. It is making both the press crazy, but it's also making his rivals crazy because you saw Donald Trump come in and say, "Politico, whose reporters have previously referred to as slime or scum and villains.

KELLY: He meant that in the nicest way.

STIREWALT: In a nicest possible way, clowns, but says, you've got to look at this article. There's some interesting stuff in here. I'm just asking questions. And then blammo, the Duke boys get away again.

So it is confounding to the process, but, remember this -- the political press is so bad because they don't understand the people for whom they are reporting. They worship the process and Republican primary voters mostly worship God and that's why they don't see eye to eye on this.

KELLY: OK, but bit by bit, even though large portions of the reporting that I just went through have been debunked or proven to be off.


KELLY: Some of them haven't been debunk the, some pieces of it, and Carson has had to come out and add mitt and say I didn't have that detail right, off about that and in a memoir you kind of fill in the blanks. So, has he taken a ding to his credibility and his honesty which is one of his best attributes, according to the polls?

STIREWALT: Short term surge, long-term danger. So, this is the kind of thing that helps in the short term and will help get him contributions, will get more poll numbers and be an encourage not his supporters than in fact their guy is weathering the storm.

However, we will have to see by the end of the year, we'll see over the next five or six weeks, do voters in a broader sense remain open to Ben Carson or do they start to have reservations? The hit pieces may do their work in the long run.

KELLY: Chris, we'll be back to you in a bit.


KELLY: Well, this morning the pokes who write the daily political note at NBC News called this a welcome to the big leagues moment for Dr. Ben Carson and the rest of the GOP field, arguing that tough vetting is part of the primary process. Hmm, always?

Take a look back to March of 2008: Senator Barack Obama was well on his way to clinching nomination before any reporter bothered to dig into the story of -- you may know this man now -- Reverend Jeremiah Wright and how the Obamas had for years attended sermons by controversial pastor that featured calls for God to, quote, "damn America" and off-color stories about President Clinton have sex in the Oval Office. I don't remember that one. There are plenty of others though.

What about the fact that Mr. Obama said that the march on Selma was what led to his conception? Only problem, he was 3 years old when the march of Selma happened. So, that's weird. That doesn't work.

And where was the vetting of Obama's memoir "Dreams From My Father"? It wasn't until 2012, 2012, when a "Washington Post" writer published an Obama biography that disputed more than three dozen claims in that memoir.

And while the current media is clearly obsessed with Carson's college years, the big leagues have yet to produce a single transcript from President Obama's time at Columbia University.

Much of this has been noted over the years by our next guest, Michelle Malkin. She's syndicated conservative blogger and author and author of the new book out now "Sold Out: How High Tech Billionaires and Bipartisan Beltway Crapweasels Are Screwing America's Best and Brightest Workers".

She coordinated with Ann Coulter on the subtitle there.

Great to see you, Michelle.


KELLY: I mean, the full vetting of Barack Obama, was the media this aggressive back in 2008?

MALKIN: You know, I was ROFL, rolling on the floor, when John Earnest, the most ironically named flack in the White House in American history was arguing somehow that the Barack Obama was savaged and vetted to the extreme by what turned out to be, of course, the stenographers of the Washington press corps.

I used to award in the early years something called the drool bucket award but, of course, we need 20-gallon trash cans for the drivel that came out of journalists in Washington who admittedly, openly admitted that they were cheering and rooting for Obama. I have a long memory. This is the reason why I wrote "Culture of Corruption" back in 2009 because these people were failing to do their jobs. It was people like me who are doing the jobs that these people were failing to do.

And I remember CNN footage of journalists, female journalists who were oohing and ahing because Obama was wearing jeans. You're killing me, they were caught on camera. The thrills up the leg and the chills up the spine, and -- and it -- and it continue throughout the 2008 campaign.

KELLY: It wasn't until four years into Barack Obama's presidency that we learned about his composite white girlfriend, that we only found out she was a composite when he was president and now we're learning something about Ben Carson.

What if someone had done a hard look at "Dreams of My Father"?

MALKIN: You know, the fact is the double standards here are glaring as a super nova, and what's happening is that the most damage that's coming out of all of these character assassinations on Ben Carson is the damage to the media.

My pop culture reference is "The Simpsons" because these media journalists, media whitewashers for the left, are turning out to be like Sideshow Bob. Every time they step on one of their own stories, they are hit in the head, smacked in the face with a rake.

KELLY: James likes that one.

MALKIN: Thank you.

KELLY: I want to ask you about "Sold Out."


KELLY: This actually elates to something Trump got question in the last debate about these visas that were given to overseas allegedly skilled worker who come into the country and they take a lot of great jobs.


And the H-1B racket is really coming to the forefront now. The book sold out about these bipartisan beltway crapweasels, about the high tech billionaires and their water carriers on Capitol Hill who are colluding to undermine the best and brightest workers in America.

And, look, I've got a lot of problems with Donald Trump. They are out in the open there now, but the one thing that he is doing, even if he doesn't understand his own plan that he's put out there, is at least he's talking and addressing directly the impact of massive illegal immigration on people at low end of the pay scale.

And now, with regard to these high-skilled workers, these are our best and brightest. These are people in science, technology, engineering and mathematics who are being undercut and who are being forced to train their replacement, who are coming largely from India, and it's unpatriotic. It's treachery.

And the entire GOP field needs to do what he's doing.

KELLY: Well, on his Web site at least.

MALKIN: Yes, exactly.

KELLY: Michelle, great to see you. Definitely not at crap weasel.


KELLY: "Sold Out."

Also tonight, just 24 hours before the candidates take the stage in the Fox Business Network debate, two reporters from a major newspaper are describing the GOP field as liars. Chris Stirewalt and Howie Kurtz are next on the debate. Oh, wow, look at that. That's nice.

Plus, one of the most successful NBA players of all time has a pretty harsh message for a Republican front-runner tonight. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is here in a "Kelly File" exclusive.

And college students and faculty were celebrating the resignation of the university's president today, but Kevin Jackson is here on what he thinks is bad news not just for colleges but for our country.


KELLY: Breaking tonight, we're less than 24 hours away from the next Republican debate where the top candidates are going to square off over the economy. You can bet some other times topics will come up.

FOX News digital politics editor Chris Stirewalt is back with us from Milwaukee, along with Howie Kurtz, host of "MediaBuzz."

Great to see you both.

I never realized how much taller you were than Howie, Chris. But now, it's all become --

HOWARD KURTZ, HOST, "MEDIABUZZ ": I'm working on that.

KELLY: Let me start with you, Howie. As we go into tomorrow night, Governor Huckabee and Governor Christie relegated to the undercard debate. What do you think are the stakes for tomorrow night?

KURTZ: Well, the stakes are high for a lot of people. Christie and Huckabee are going to get less media attention because they are in the secondary debate because they are in a vicious cycle.

And I think this comes at an opportune time, Megyn, for Ben Carson who has been whipping the media's butt on these questions about his biography. Fair to raise the questions, but too much overreaching, inflammatory headlines in places where you haven't got it. But because it sowing doubts about is Ben Carson an exaggerator, is there a pattern here, the focus on the economy will muffle that somewhat unless Donald Trump in one of his answers makes a pivot and says, you know, my tax plan will make America great again, and by the way, I never tried to hit my mother with a hammer.

That could get it back on center stage.

KELLY: No, that's the weirdest of the situation. He's going to say by the way I did try to hit my mother with a hammer, go ahead and disprove it because I did it, and momma will back me up.

All right. Let me ask you, Chris. Going into tomorrow night -- I mean, obviously we've got the two front-runners. We've got Rubio and Cruz who have had an elevation in the polls. As for the remaining four in the so-called undercard debate, Kasich, Jeb, Rand, Fiorina, what are they supposed to do?

STIREWALT: It's do or die, especially do or die for Jeb. Either he can stand and deliver and after the disastrous performance in the previous debate, the threshold for success for him is basically to be alive, to not fall down, these things would be considered good and he'd be able to go to his donor and say, more money please. If I have another $50 million, we can really make this happen and he can stay in.

Fiorina is in a slightly different class. She can keep going. She's popular even if she's not number one on the ballot test, she's doing OK.

But think of it this way, there are 10 candidates splitting up 20 percent of the Republican vote, the 2 percent club has got to shrink if the Republicans are going to get down to business.

KELLY: Yes. This is first time we've seen Trump go into a debate, Howie, without leading in all the polls, and he really hasn't been at center of the media attention this week in a good way. Carson has been taking the hits.

KURTZ: Yes, except for the "Saturday Night Live" which most people thought was kind of unfunny but not his fault, the scripted geniuses at NBC. But, look, Trump needs -- you know, he loves to be a counterpuncher and since he's not the center attention and since Carson has been dominating the news, he may have to punch rather than counterpunch to make sure he doesn't fade in this debate because he wants to grab his share of the lead back and momentum.

As far as Jeb Bush, I would say expectations are so low for him after the last debate that it's going to be a pretty easy bar to clear, a couple of good lines and maybe he gets positive press but my focus is going to be on Donald Trump because he has dominated the coverage of this campaign and as you say for the first time now, he's faded a bit and I don't think he's going to let this Milwaukee stage go by without, you know, trying to get his name and his message back out there in it's exciting.

KELLY: It's exciting. Look at Howie in the muddle of our Stirewalt/Kelly sandwich. Like these big giants. And then there's Howie.

This is not fair of us to you, Howie. Great to see you. See you tomorrow night.

KURTZ: All right.

KELLY: New focus on my next guest in Milwaukee. For the first time since the start of the Republican race, Governor Chris Christie will be none on the stage for the main event. Instead, he will take part in the earlier debate, a change that he says is actually helping his campaign.


Here with me now, New Jersey Governor Chris Christie.

How so?

GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE, R-N.J., PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We've raised more money. People really are angry that I was excluded from the main stage, and they have been sending in contributions online saying, you know, we want to give you some money now because we feel like this is unfair to you.

KELLY: Last time you were here we talked about the hug and you clarified there was no hug between you and President Obama but the moment in New Jersey after Hurricane Katrina.


KELLY: Sandy, sorry -- where the two of you bonded and the federal government helped.

Do you think this could help you with the people, the Republicans, who have been angry with you? I know, you know, to see sort of a humbling or to see something where you have a fight your way back and you've been gracious about going to the undercard debate, and you haven't been a big whiner about it so you're going to go and do what presidential candidates do and try to earn your way back up.

CHRISTIE: Yes, listen, I think people want to see you tested when you're running for president because they know the presidency is an enormous task every day and so what I've said to people is, I don't want this to be easy and I never thought it would be. So, I'm going to fight real hard because I want to be president, Megyn.

I'm not doing this because somebody told me I should or thought it was something I had to do, I'm doing this because I want to be president. And so, if you do, you go and you fight and I think it's got to be humbling. The whole process is humbling.

KELLY: Isn't? It must be.

CHRISTIE: It is. It's very humbling.

KELLY: Ask Dr. Carson.

CHRISTIE: Sure, and ask people for their vote and their support and have them not say yes right away.

KELLY: It hasn't been that humbling for Donald Trump.

CHRISTIE: Well, you know, there's certain things in life that are impossible, Megyn. You know, physically impossible.

KELLY: Let me ask you about Dr. Carson. What do you make of that because Jeb Bush came out and said if it's between "Politico" and Ben Carson, I'm with Ben Carson. He openly said he doesn't believe these allegations against him,

What do you think?

CHRISTIE: Listen, what I've said is I have no idea, never read any of Dr. Carson's books. I have no idea.

This is what I say. Everybody is responsible for their own personal story and so Dr. Carson's placed his personal story out there and we're running for president, we're going to get scrutinized, and you got be used to the fact that this isn't always fair. Life is not always fair.

KELLY: Has this ever happened to you?

CHRISTIE: Right? So, we know this, I've lived it. So the fact is he's got to give those answers, and if he gives them to the satisfaction of the American people, this will be over in a couple of days.

And I think that's part of the test of running for president, and I don't -- the one thing I haven't liked about it is his kind of complaining about it. The fact is this is part of test. It's not fair and I admit and agree that it's not fair, but it's part of the test. So, answer the questions and then move on.

KELLY: What do you see as path forward for you? People -- the conventional wisdom is you're in the more establishment lane and Carson, Trump and others are in the outsider lane and you've got who in that lane - - you've got to kill Bush, you've got to kill Rubio. I mean, how is Chris Christie the last man standing?

CHRISTIE: Death to no one, Megyn. We lift everyone else but we go higher. Death to no one.

KELLY: How (ph)?

CHRISTIE: Death to no one. Here's what we do. First of all, we work harder than anybody else. Been in New Hampshire 46 days, that's more than any other candidate by far. We're now spending a lot of time in Iowa, going there right after the debates.

And we speak the truth to people. We tell them the truth that they need to hear. And that's what I've been doing in these debates. We've quadrupled in the last three weeks in New Hampshire, and so, our momentum and the places where they are going to actually vote, going really well. So, I'm feeling good about it.

KELLY: We'll be watching.

CHRISTIE: Thank you.

KELLY: See you tomorrow.

CHRISTIE: All right. You got it, Megyn. I'm looking forward to.


KELLY: Well, the fourth Republican debate is tomorrow night on the Fox Business Network.

Trish Regan and Sandra Smith will start the debate coverage at 7:00 p.m. Eastern Time, and then, Maria Bartiromo and Neil Cavuto will take over with the second debate with the top-tier candidates at 9:00 p.m. in primetime.

And then tune into a special "Kelly File" live at midnight with complete debate analysis, including Frank Luntz and Chris Stirewalt and all your favorites right here. See you then.

Well, big news breaking just a short time ago on the president's immigration plan as a federal court puts the president's executive action on hold, again. Judge Andrew Napolitano had had a chance to review some of the ruling and he will join us next. It's 160-plus pages.

Plus, a Christian day care worker is fired from her job after she raised questions about how to treat a transgender student. Now she joins us in a "Kelly File" exclusive.


KELLY: Back now to our breaking news from the top of the hour. As president's immigration executive action takes a real hit. In a 2-1 decision the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals has ruled against the administration's actions, upholding a lower court injunction against those executive actions that had been issued by a judge down in Texas.

Judge Andrew Napolitano is our Fox News senior judicial analyst.

So, this is the ruling, this is a biggie. It's 2-1, so there is a dissenter, but the president has lost.

And what does this mean?

JUDGE ANDREW NAPOLITANO, FOX NEWS SENIOR JUDICIAL ANALYST: It means that a federal judge in Texas who enjoined the president, signed an order preventing the president from implementing his executive order which effectively changed the immigration laws, that injunction has now been made permanent by a federal appeals court.

So, the three judges, the trial judge and two appeals court judges, have used their authority under the Constitution to stop the president from writing his own law. They all agreed that that's what he was attempting to do.

KELLY: So, they agreed with the original 25 statements by Barack Obama, that he did not have the authority to offer greater executive actions when it comes to illegal immigration in the country.

NAPOLITANO: Yes, and they also agreed with the plaintiffs here which are 25 of the 50 states led by the state of Texas, originally filed by then attorney general new Governor Greg Abbott, demonstrated that if the president's executive order were to be carried out the financial damage to those states forcing them to spend money that they hadn't taxed for or budget, the basic welfare benefits to the people that the president was going to let stay here legally in the president's view, that that would be a catastrophic injury to the states and, therefore, they had the right to bring this case.

KELLY: Because the Obama administration had been in there trying to argue to the courts, you can't even let these states object. They have no standing to even be here. We are god and we get to decide with the stroke of a pen what the immigration situation will be.

NAPOLITANO: Megyn, the Justice Department's argument was even more over the top than that. They argued that the president had such discretion, they wouldn't say where the discretion came from, that it was not even challengeable in a court. That, of course, was rejected by these judges.

KELLY: What a reversal from all the on-camera statements by Barack Obama himself, the president of the United States, repeatedly saying I don't have the authority. I'm not god. This isn't a kingdom. I can't do it, and then, of course, as we now all know, in about this time last year, about 12 months, he reversed himself entirely.

NAPOLITANO: He reversed himself and rewrote the immigration laws. Listen, he may have had a noble purpose for doing this, but the Congress expressly rejected what had he wrote, the Congress established a very detailed administrative setup for people to become American citizens

KELLY: It's not like they had not taken a look at it we the people reject your plan. Couldn't get through and after saying he didn't have the authority he claimed the authority and now, these judges have said, you were right the first time.

NAPOLITANO: This is very, very rare that a single judge would enjoy the president and that judge would be upheld by an appeals court. One option left, that's the Supreme Court of the United States in the middle of a very busy term that's already been planned.

KELLY: Not over yet, but 2-1 for the challengers.

Coming up, Dr. Ben Carson not only facing serious pressure from the media but also just took a hit from one of the greatest NBA players of all time. Ow, that's got to hurt. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar tells us why he thinks in his words Dr. Carson is bad for black Americans.

Plus, months of protests at the University of Missouri culminated in a resignation of two top officials, but the students say they are not done yet and Kevin Jackson is next on where this could go.


KELLY: Breaking Tonight, new fallout after weeks of student protests at the University of Missouri today, resulted in the resignation of two top officials. Both were accused of, quote, "Inaction on issues of race." Kevin Jackson and Lisa Durden are here tonight on the fallout. But first, Chief Washington Correspondent James Rosen has the story of what unfolded on campus. James?

JAMES ROSEN, WASHINGTON: Megyn, good evening. Black student activists on the flagship Columbia campus of the University of Missouri where the African-American undergraduate population is just 8 percent have succeeded tonight in toppling two of the university's most powerful figures. Late today, Chancellor R. Bowen Loftin, (inaudible) the Columbia campus announced he is stepping down at year end to lead university research programs. That follows the dramatic announcement from University President Tim Wolfe who is buckling to mounting pressure acknowledged, quote, "inaction in response to racial incidents."


TIM WOLFE, FORMER UNIVERSITY OF MISSOURI PRESIDENT: I should really love everybody here and the great institution and my decision to resign comes out of love, not hate.


ROSEN: The tension at Mizzou, the largest university, the state already racked by Ferguson, started about two months ago with the reports of racial taunts and intimidation. One month ago, the school announced diversity training for all faculty, staff and students, but a key turning point came this weekend when black players on Mizzou's division on football team vowed to boycott their games until Wolfe resign. After he did, the black activist group that had campaigned for his ouster, demanded this afternoon among other things, a meeting with Missouri's governor.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is just a beginning of aiding and dismantling systems of oppression within higher education, specifically (inaudible).


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The resignation of Tim Wolfe is a glimmer of hope for historically marginalized students whose voices have been silenced by patriarchal white male institutions.



ROSEN: And those football players who used their clout to impact the campus debate have returned to the practice field, Megyn.

KELLY: James Rosen, thank you. Join in me now with more, Kevin Jackson, executive director of the and author of the book, Race Pimping, and Political Commentator Lisa Durden. Thank you both for being here. Lisa, let me start with you.


KELLY: What -- why are the students still unhappy? I know they were -- there were some incidents on campus involving race. They didn't think that they acted quick enough to address them or more -- or robustly enough. Why are they still unhappy?

DURDEN: Instead of that idiot, Mr. Wolfe running around, blubbering on and on to the break of dawn about how change takes listening and learning and caring and conversation. What he needed to do was open a Webster's dictionary and learn that change takes actions. So his stupid pontificating was dumb. He should have put some -- things in place to ensure that students of all races felt comfortable and stamp out the racist actions happening by racist students. Instead, what he's doing is running around doing victim blaming. This is so low brow and expected and anybody who is watching right now who wants to hit me up on Twitter is @lisardurden, because that's what you do every time I come on the show. I'm ready for you.

KELLY: Don't respond to the Twitter, hey.

DURDEN: Oh, my bad.

KELLY: That's like breathing in the bus exhaust. Kevin.


KELLY: Kevin. Did these guys get what they deserved?

KEVIN JACKSON, AUTHOR, RACE PIMPING: No. I think it's ridiculous that they would even consider resigning. Look Megyn, we had Donald Sterling who had a private conversation exposed and he lost his team. We had Paula Deen who 40 years ago, maybe used the N-word at some point. And today, we have people who did nothing who lost their jobs. If this is something that America wants to face, the idea that you can be the CEO of a company, somebody at your company could say something off color, pardon the pun, to somebody black and they are going to throw a conniption, then who wants to lead? And the second part of it is when we look at black unemployment, just being blunt, who want to hire people that every time there's any racial insensitive of any sort, it doesn't even have to be real, they are going to be losing their jobs. This is undoubtedly the most ridiculous thing that's happening in colleges and it's essentially chickens coming home to roost in liberalism because these so-called racial incidents are things that most people would blow off, maybe you'd write about it on Twitter and that would be the end of it.

KELLY: There was one thing -- it was a swastika on campus. They didn't feel that enough was done to.

DURDEN: Written in excrements. So you gonna tell me that all going racial slurs.

JACKSON: First of all, slot.

DURDEN: Ongoing feces.

KELLY: Oh, wait. Let's Lisa go now, I come back to you.

DURDEN: Ongoing racial slurs, ongoing feces having swastikas in excrement and people throwing around these epithets is just something we can brush off, when Tim Wolfe himself said he was wrong and he should have done something about it. He did not lose his job.

JACKSON: So what.

DURDEN: He quits his job.

JACKSON: So what.

DURDEN: He was forced.


DURDEN: He was forced to quit his job because they hit him in the pocket, a few million dollars in fines. Take that you idiot!

KELLY: Kevin?

JACKSON: He's a political tool, of tool of political correctness and that's the only reason why he left. The fact of the matter is the swastika, just for your guest's information is directed at Jews, not blacks. So the idea that that is something.

DURDEN: Oh, so you are -- you're OK with taking on Jews.

JACKSON: I'll let you talk. I'll let you talk.

KELLY: Just let him finish his point.

JACKSON: I'll let you talk.


JACKSON: The point is it was not, it was not directed at the black students. So if you want, if you want to talk about it from the standpoint of Jews, I'm happy to have that discussion. But look, you are -- if you think that these kids are not going to face these issues when they get into real life, it's ridiculous.

DURDEN: Of course.

JACKSON: There are people that are gonna.

DURDEN: Of course.

JACKSON: There are people that are going to say things about you, and if this is the level that is -- if this is all that it takes to get a rise out of people to where they want to picket and people lose their jobs, understand, this is not isolated for what is just happening at this university.

DURDEN: Luckily, I'm not the black person.

JACKSON: This is something that going to impact black people long term.

KELLY: Go ahead, quickly Lisa.

DURDEN: Luckily, I'm not the black person who only I care about black people. I care about all people.

JACKSON: Yeah, you are.

DURDEN: So when you hurt people, Jews, women, blacks.

JACKSON: Who got hurt?

DURDEN: Kids. You hurt everybody. So excuse me if I care about Jews.

JACKSON: Who got hurt?

KELLY: OK. I'm gonna leave that.

DURDEN: Excuse me.

JACKSON: Who got hurt? Nobody got hurt.

KELLY: I got to go. It's great to see you both.

When we return, growing outrage out of Texas after a daycare worker lost her job for raising questions about a transgender child. Up next, we'll speak with the woman and her attorney in a cable news, exclusive.


KELLY: We have a Kelly File exclusive tonight. After two staffers at a Christian school in Texas say, they were fired from their jobs. They say the school acted after they raised concerns about having to call a 6-year- old girl by a new name and to refer to the child as a boy. One of the fired workers is with us tonight, but first Trace Gallagher gets us up to speed on what happened. Trace?

TRACE GALLAGHER, LOS ANGELES: Megyn, the Children's Lighthouse Learning Center calls the story sensationalized, saying the allegations comes from a disgruntled former teacher who was fired for multiple reasons and documentation does show Madeline Kirksey was warned for everything from tardiness to children's safety issues, but that same documentation seems to back up her allegation that she was let go at least in part because she disagreed with the school's handling of a transgender student. She says parents of a 6-year-old girl informed the school their daughter was now identifying as a boy. The parents cut the girl's hair and requested she be called by a male name. Apparently, the school agreed and the staff was given copies of guidelines on how to handle the situation. Like asking teachers to defend the child's dignity and comparing a transgender student today, to being a black student in a white school 30 years ago, but Madeline Kirksey says, the situation was confusion for everyone. Listen to her.


MADELINE KIRKSEY, FIRED FROM TEXAS CHILDCARE CENTER: One day she wanted to be a girl and when, you know, the next day, she wanted to be a boy and then the other gets kid get confused and start calling her a boy and she starts screaming, "I'm not at boy!"


GALLAGHER: Because of the confusion, Kirksey suggested addressing the matter with the parents of all the students. Instead, she was given a warning that said, quote, "When requested by parents and management to call a transgendered child by the child's a new name, Madeline does not follow instruction." That line was later redacted, but the school maintains that parents should only be notified if -- listen.


JAMIE IZAKS, ALL POINTS PUBLIC RELATIONS PRESIDENT: If a student is anxious, eager, showing signs of being distracted of whatever that she's might be atypical behavior? It's always express (ph).


GALLAGHER: The school believes this is a private matter that should have stayed inside the schoolyard gates, Megyn.

KELLY: Trace, thank you.

And joining me now, in a cable news exclusive, Madeline Kirksey who was fired from Children's Lighthouse Learning Center last week and her attorney, Andy Taylor. Thank you both so much for being here. So Madeline, let me get this straight. This child was attending classes, 6-year-old, as a girl for four months before the parents came in and said she wanted to change identity?

KIRKSEY: That's correct.

KELLY: So all the students in the class knew her as a girl. These are other 6-year-olds?

KIRKSEY: Correct.

KELLY: Was there any consideration given to the confusion this was going to cause the rest of the children?

KIRKSEY: Only by myself and the other staff that were in the kids' club.

KELLY: What did the other parents say? I'm sure there was some word of this, whether, you know, this kind of thing would get around. What was their feedback about, whether they wanted their children to encounter this issue at age 6?

KIRKSEY: We had a parent that was openly upset and she did discuss it with the director.

KELLY: And what was the response?

KIRKSEY: The director or the parent?

KELLY: So what did the director tell the parent, her rights were -- with respect to her child?

KIRKSEY: I'm not sure about the response because I wasn't at the location at the time.

KELLY: Andy, with, you know, with all sympathy and empathy for that child, and what she is going through, was there no consideration given to what this put the other children to their -- they are nowhere near at point of being able to understand that gender has now become a fluid thing for some.

ANDY TAYLOR, ATTORNEY OF MADELINE KIRKSEY: Well, what this school did was a total outrage, Megyn. You know, we're talking about a 6-year-old little girl. She had been there four months as a girl. And all of a sudden, from Friday to Monday, it's no longer Sally, now its Johnny. That's going to put her in a situation where she's going to be ridiculed by her fellow students. And think about those students, they are going to be confused by what's happening. Learning about transgender for the first time in a school setting and what my client was trying to do is to protect.

KELLY: But what could be done?

TAYLOR: The dignity of all those children.

KELLY: Her parents have a genuine held belief that she is actually a boy and should live her life as a boy. What could have been done to satisfy both sides, in your view?

TAYLOR: Well, think about it. You know, I have young children and when they are going to see a movie or have a book read in class, the school informs the parents in advance. They give us a written note and say, "Do you agree with us or not?"

KELLY: And that didn't happen here.

TAYLOR: And make accommodations if you don't.

KELLY: We heard that.

TAYLOR: Of course not.

KELLY: What --

TAYLOR: They totally blew it off.

KELLY: What are you going to do now?

TAYLOR: Well, in the morning, we are filing a complaint with the EEOC. Madeline's rights have been violated. Literally, she was sacrificed that the altered for political correctness. And it's not just Madeline and not just this school that we're worried about. We need to send a strong message that Christians need to push back on this agenda. This school is in seven different states, 37 different facilities.

KELLY: Right.

TAYLOR: But it's broader than that. It's nationwide.

KELLY: And I know. I know you're safe (ph).

TAYLOR: We've got to accommodate everybody.

KELLY: Madeline deserves an accommodation for her Christian beliefs which don't support this action. Thank you for being here. We'll follow up on the story.

TAYLOR: Thank you.

KELLY: Taking your thoughts on that on Twitter, I'm Megyn Kelly. Up next, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, one of the great basketball legends of all time, but tonight he is getting attention for a piece he just wrote on Dr. Ben Carson. He joins us next to explain why he's now waiting into the 2016 race.


KELLY: Well, just days before the media began going after Ben Carson, the doctor was the target of a scathing article from another African- American man who broke barriers. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar got national attention for a piece he posted in TIME magazine, arguing that "Ben Carson is terrible," in his view, "for black Americans." In part because he feels that quote, "His repressive, muddled and pious policies and opinions often run against our Constitution." He goes on and says, "And it would definitely not be good for African-Americans to have a president who flounders helplessly in office because it perpetuates the stereotype that blacks can't be effective CEOs, quarterbacks and leaders." Join in us now in The Kelly File exclusive, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, six-time NBA champion and author of the new Nobel, Mycroft Holmes.

Let's start with Ben Carson and your criticism of him. I mean, I should say you are an open democrat, so it's not particularly surprising you're not in the camp of Ben Carson, but what is it in particular that led you to hit him as, you know somebody who would be terrible for black people?

KAREEM ABDUL-JABBAR, SIX-TIME NBA CHAMPION: Well, I just think that someone who doesn't have the experience of governing and know about the art of compromise, which is what our legal system and our legislative system is based on, someone who doesn't know about how to operate in that system is going to have a tough time.

KELLY: Do you feel like that's true of all of the so-called outsiders in this race or is there a particular issue with Dr. Carson?

ABDUL-JABBAR: I think someone who has had the experience and knows what governance is all about and is willing to use the system to make -- to work for all of us, I think that would be the best choice.

KELLY: Do you think that, you know, that he has is how -- because some of his defenders, in connection with this whole, you know, did he exaggerate his biography, dustup and so on, have come out and said, quoting from back in the Clarence Thomas confirmation days, this is a quote, "high- tech lynching." And they've gone on to say, in their view, this is his defenders, "this is another example of how black conservatives are held to an impossible standard."

ABDUL-JABBAR: Well, you know, I'm not trying to take him to task for some of the things that make -- he may have remembered incorrectly. You know, that happens to people. I just did an autobiographical documentary and it was hard for me to remember every fact in my life correctly. So, you know, I'm not going to be on his case for that. I'm just trying to focus in on what he says his policies might be and say that, you know some of them - - most of them don't make any sense.

KELLY: So there -- as you mention, there is a new HBO documentary out about your life. Your conversion to Islam, your incredible rise to stardom as a young man, even in the eighth grade, you became nationally known.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you think about what he's meant to L.A. Sports and what he's meant to the NBA and what he meant to young players like myself, it's off the charts. And so, I'm just happy that I got a chance to play alongside of him. I'm just happy that we can call each other friend.


KELLY: Do you think that they captured you? And do you feel --do you feel recognized in the way that you should be, given your accomplishments?

ABDUL-JABBAR: I thought HBO did a great job. It really gets it down as to exactly what happened and I try to be as frank and honest as I can.

KELLY: People should check it out because it's an incredible telling of your life story and just the details of it are.

ABDUL-JABBAR: Well, thank you.

KELLY: Very moving and inspirational. Before I let you go, I have to ask you about Mycroft Holmes because, we're all getting to know him more because of the show Sherlock Holmes that's been, you know.

ABDUL-JABBAR: Exactly, yeah.

KELLY: Right? So now, that you -- what made you take a look at the as the elusive older brother?

ABDUL-JABBAR: Well, I kind of thought that how did Sherlock get to be Sherlock and how did their circumstances -- how did they evolve? So there are very few paragraphs about Mycroft in Mr. Doyle's original work.

KELLY: Right.

ABDUL-JABBAR: So that gave me an opportunity to go back and invent a little bit of history and do what most novelists do, take something juicy and try and run with it.

KELLY: Kareem, it's great to see you.

ABDUL-JABBAR: It's great talking with you, Megyn, thank you.

KELLY: All the best. We'll be right back.


KELLY: All right. So tomorrow night at 9:00 p.m., we will be here, but then we will also be here tomorrow night live at midnight for all of the analysis that you need and have come to rely on us where Frank Luntz and the focus group, and Stirewalt and Howie, all your favorites with the post debate analysis. We'll see you then. In the meantime,, thanks for watching. I'm Megyn Kelly.

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