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Kelly File

Kasich: 'You don't produce jobs through bombast'; Pastor investigates near-death experiences

This is a rush transcript from "The Kelly File," October 26, 2015. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

MEGYN KELLY, HOST: Breaking tonight. The next republican debate in the 2016 cycle is less than 48 hours away with. And with attacks from candidates on other candidates only intensifying over the weekend, some are saying the stakes for this showdown are higher than any before.

Welcome to "The Kelly File," everyone. I'm Megyn Kelly. Twice in the 2016 race for the White House, the republican field has taken the stage in a face-off that changed the conversation for American voters. This time the focus is on the economy. But with several Republicans seeing a drop in the polls, and problems with fund-raising, the ones at the bottom are under increasing pressure to get it done or get out. While the top of the pack is getting more defensive, leading to predictions that we will likely expect more game-changing moments like these.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. BEN CARSON, R-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I haven't said anything about me be the only one to do anything, so let me try that. I'm the only one to separate Siamese twins.

(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)

The only one to operate on babies while they're still in the mother's womb. The only one to take out half of a brain. Although you would think if you go to Washington that someone beat me to it.

CARLY FIORINA, R-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You know, it's interesting to me, Mr. Trump said that he heard Mr. Bush very clearly and what Mr. Bush said. I think women all over this country heard very clearly what Mr. Trump said.

(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)

DONALD TRUMP, R-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think she's got a beautiful face and I think she's a beautiful woman. Your brother's administration gave us Barack Obama because it was such a disaster, those last three months, that Abraham Lincoln couldn't have been elected.

JEB BUSH, R-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You know, what? As it relates to my brother, there's one thing I know for sure, he kept us safe.

SEN. MARCO RUBIO, R-FLA., PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If the United States military is going to be engaged by a commander-in-chief, it should only be engaged to an endeavor to win. And we're not going to authorize use of force, if you're not putting men and women in the position where they can win. And quite frankly, people don't trust this president, commander-in- chief and president.

FIORINA: I dare Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama to watch these tapes.  Watch a fully formed fetus on the table. Its heart beating. Its legs kicking. While someone says, we have to keep it alive to harvest its brain. This is about the character of our nation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KELLY: Joining me now, Chris Stirewalt, our Fox News Digital Politics editor and Dana Perino who is co-host of "The Five" and former White House secretary under President George W. Bush. Welcome to you both.

So, we've got 48 hours to go. And I'll start with you on this, Stirewalt. Who needs to put points on the board? Because today "The New York Times" said above all Jeb Bush and Marco Rubio. Do you agree with that?

CHRIS STIREWALT, FOX NEWS DIGITAL POLITICS EDITOR: I definitely think with Bush. He is been staggering and he needs a reset, he needs to demonstrate that he has some setting within himself that was not the guy that you saw over the weekend complaining about running for president and saying, he had other cool stuff to do. He needs to demonstrate that he can do this. And in a weird way, and this is perverted, but Donald Trump needs Jeb Bush to come back, because Jeb Bush is the punching bag that Donald Trump needs. Donald Trump can hit Jeb Bush as hard as he wants and nobody will get mad at him. Because they're both about equally unpopular in the Republican Party. Right now, Donald Trump doesn't know what to do with Ben Carson. He is struggling in that issue, he needs Jeb back because he needs that fight.

KELLY: Come back. Right. Okay. And speaking of Trump not necessarily knowing how to deal with Carson, Dana. We saw this exchange happened over the weekend where Donald Trump seemed to take a shot at Ben Carson's religion, and then Carson responded. Listen to Trump.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I'm Presbyterian. Can you believe it? Nobody believes I'm Presbyterian. I'm Presbyterian. I'm Presbyterian. Boy, that is down in the middle of the road, folks. You know, of fairness. I mean, 7th day Adventists I don't know about. I just don't know about.

CARSON: Well, it's kind of interesting, because the conflict that we had a couple of months ago is he thought I was questioning his faith and he went ballistic on that. So it seems a little interesting that he would now be doing that. You know, I really refuse to really get into the mud pit.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KELLY: And now Trump says, I was just saying, I don't know. I wasn't really taking a shot at him. He's just saying, I don't know about that.  

DANA PERINO, CO-HOST, "THE FIVE": Just raising questions because he wants to learn. The other thing it's interesting is so when Donald Trump says, I'm Presbyterian, I'm Presbyterian, I'm Presbyterian, it's like, who are you trying to convince? You or me. I'm like, I get it.  Okay. You're Presbyterian.

KELLY: I keep saying, well, can you believe that? It's like why wouldn't I believe that?

PERINO: I believe it. I believe it.

KELLY: Fine. Okay.

PERINO: And I think that part of Dr. Carson's appeal is what you just saw in that response, which is he let it go but he was able to make one little sharp point that keeps him in the forefront of people's minds of thinking like, could I see him as president? Do I like him? Would I want to listen to him for the next four years? Do I think he has the moral fortitude to lead this country? Yes. And so, in Iowa, he's doing well.  He's not doing as well in the other states. But Iowa is I think 98 days away is the first vote and he's in good position.

KELLY: Right. So, there's yet another poll out today that puts him atop the field in Iowa, Chris. And yet not in New Hampshire. So, just for a moment, let's just shift to the polls and the politics of it, because they're all vying for the top position in the polls. The question is, let's say Dr. Carson wins Iowa, if the vote were tomorrow, now we're less than 100 days away, he might. His lead is 32 percent with Trump at 18 percent. But Trump's killing him in New Hampshire. He's killing everybody in New Hampshire. And trump's leading in South Carolina. And so how important is Iowa if, you know, Trump or somebody else may be lined up to win several of the states that follow?

STIREWALT: Well, look, here's what we are starting to see, I think.  I think we are starting to see Donald Trump behave more like a normal candidate and that he has geographic strengths and he will have geographic weaknesses. And we will have weaknesses in places like Iowa where evangelical Christian voters dominate. And that can apply to a lot of places in the south. And that's a very dangerous as republican. But as Mitt Romney demonstrated, you can be not an evangelical, you can be as he said, a Presbyterian, Presbyterian down the middle of the road. But still not be an evangelical Christian and still win the republican nomination.  But you have to do it in blue states. So he's a republican who will probably do well or can do better in states like New Hampshire that are more socially moderate, that are more moderate in general, but where his message on immigration can connect. And so that's the way forward for him.

KELLY: That's right. And Trump is actually saying, he doesn't believe these polls that put him behind Carson in Iowa. He rejects them.  He doesn't think they're right.

Dana, let me ask you, on Wednesday night, two nights from now, what about Carly Fiorina? She did so well after the last CNN debate and now her numbers are back down to, you know, five percent, six percent.

PERINO: So, I'm going to quibble not only with Chris Stirewalt, but with "The New York Times." I don't think it is just Jeb or Rubio that need to do well on Wednesday night, I actually think there are other lower tier candidates that need to do better. For example, Mike Huckabee, this might be his last shot to really make a stand. Governor Kasich is going to be on your show. I think that that is something -- you've got to see more of him for him to do well. Chris Christie, this is a really important debate.  But Carly Fiorina was able to get on the main debate stage at CNN and everybody was cited about her. And then you sort of think, well, did she squander that lead? Could she get it back?

KELLY: She went underground on national television. It was like, you couldn't get her on the show. It's like, you don't want to come on and talk to the American people.

PERINO: When you're at the apex of your popularity, you would have thought that she would have. So, she has an opportunity to do that. And this debate is not make it or break it completely, because just 13 days after that, FOX Business is going to have its debate. So, I don't think you're going to see a lot of people drop out between those two debates.  But by November 14th, yes, you'll probably see some people make that decision.

KELLY: You think can really shape that momentum. We have seen that over the past couple of debates and can really change people's opinion of you. Maybe in a way that instance. Maybe in a way that speaks its anger over time. It's great to see you both.

PERINO: Thank you.

STIREWALT: Also tonight, with the GOP field trading new shots on a host of issues, big groups of Latino voters are going to meet tomorrow in Boulder to talk about who they're going to support in the GOP field and who they are not. And the man heading up that effort is with us live, next.

Plus, Hollywood Director Quentin Tarantino being called out by the head of the NYPD Police Union tonight for some controversial comments on cops. Both sides on that.

Plus, the director of the FBI, the nation's top federal law enforcement officer breaks with the White House, just under the DOJ chief, Attorney General, breaks with the White House on whether this kind of anti- police rhetoric is contributing to historic levels of crime in various major cities across this country. Wait until you hear this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES COMEY, FBI DIRECTOR: I spoke to officers privately in one big city precinct who described being surrounded by young people with mobile phones held high, taunting them when they get out of their cars. They said to me, we feel under siege and we don't feel much like getting out of our cars.        

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KELLY: Breaking tonight. With 48 hours to go until the big GOP debate, Donald Trump is engaging in a series of attacks on his rivals.  Despite a recent Bloomberg poll out of Iowa showing 46 percent of the voters there reacting negatively when Mr. Trump opens with remarks like these. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Bush is out there, his campaign is a disaster. It's because I came along. I'm proud of it. So he's meeting now with mom and dad. No, it's true. He needs counsel. And he was very angry over the week.

Here's a guy -- here's a guy that wants to run our country and he can't even run his own campaign. By the way, Carson is lower energy than Bush. I don't get it. I saw him being interviewed. He's lower energy than bush.

I'm Presbyterian. Boy, that's down the middle of the road, folks, in all fairness. I mean, Seventh Day Adventist, I don't know about. I just don't know about.

Well, Mr. Trump's language with respect to immigrants has hurt his numbers with Latinos. And tomorrow, several groups of Hispanic voters will meet near the debate site in Boulder, Colorado to discuss how they want to deal with Donald Trump and the rest of the GOP field.

Joining me now is Alfonso Aguilar, executive director of American Principles Project's Latino Partnership. Plus, Chris Salcedo, he's the executive director for the Conservative Hispanic Society.

Great to see you both. Thank you very much for being here. So Mr. Trump is going to be under the microscope as I understand it, along with Ted Cruz. And the question is, what, if any, issues do you have with these two gentlemen. Start with you, Alfonso.

ALFONSO AGUILAR, AMERICAN PRINCIPLES PROJECT: Well, I think we're going to look at all of the candidates. We want to look at the entire GOP field and see what they're talking about in not only terms of immigration but all the issues. For Hispanics, immigration is an important issue.  It's not the number one issue. It's a significant issue. A gateway issue to get into the Latino community. If a republican candidate doesn't deal with immigration in a constructive way --

KELLY: OK. But is it an open minded thing? I mean, is there anything, any way you can be persuaded on Trump or Cruz who are hard-liners on immigration, but that is very appealing to many within the GOP fields, who are open minded?

AGUILAR: Well, I mean, there's a big difference between Donald Trump and Ted Cruz. I think with Donald Trump, we're going to have an open discussion. But I think we have a hard time supporting a guy who says that the majority of Mexicans, undocumented immigrants are criminals and rapists who's calling for deporting all undocumented immigrants. That kind of talk is very offensive to Hispanic voters. So --  

KELLY: He didn't say the majority. He did not say the majority. He said, they're not sending their best people. He said, they're not sending their best people and some are rapists --  

AGUILAR: No. No. But then he said --

KELLY: -- and I'm sure some are very good people.

AGUILAR: And some are some good people. I mean, that kind of language, regardless of how the way you see it, is offensive to Latinos.  And now to say that now we're going to deport every single undocumented immigrant, you know, that's impossible to do.

KELLY: I understood.

AGUILAR: It's offensive to Latinos.

KELLY: Now, let me ask you Chris, though --

CHRIS SALCEDO, CONSERVATIVE HISPANIC SOCIETY: Yes.

KELLY: Because you are a conservative Latino, and Trump supporter.  And were you invited to this confab?

SALCEDO: No, we weren't. As a matter of fact, when this announcement came down, and three things Megyn that stood out for me when the announcement came down. In the pages of The Washington Post, the first question that popped into my mind, why would a conservative Latino or a GOP Latino want to announce a confab like this in the pages of a member of the media in good standing with the Brian Williams press? Why not go to Fox News or why not go to the blazer, a myriad of other outlets to make the announcement where conservatives and GOPs are not treated like pariahs.

KELLY: But Alfonso, I mean, these are Republicans. Now, Alfonso, this is not --

SALCEDO: If Cruz wants to join us, he's welcome. I frankly, I --

(TALKING OVER EACH OTHER)

KELLY: But wait, wait, wait, let me just set the record straight.  Alfonso, the group -- these are Republicans, right? Is this Democrats too?

AGUILAR: This is a group of the top Latino conservative and republican leaders in the nation.

KELLY: Okay. So, Chris, it isn't a republican group. They're trying to figure out without which Republican to put their support behind. Go ahead, Chris.

SALCEDO: Well, to that point, the conservative Hispanic society which on the executive director didn't get a heads up that this was going on.

KELLY: How many are in your group?

SALCEDO: We have members nationwide, we're getting so popular on the website. It's hard to keep track on the --

KELLY: I know -- but if it's like four, then you don't get an invitation.

AGUILAR: I worked for American Principles Project --

SALCEDO: Well, hold on. America first Latinos didn't get a heads up.  The remembrance project didn't get a heads up on all of these. So, I think what's going on here Megyn is these folks are meeting there in Colorado, not to formulate an opinion but to justify an opinion. And they don't want --

(TALKING OVER EACH OTHER)

KELLY: All right. Let me go back to Alfonso a bit. Alfonso, let me ask you this. Alfonso, let me ask you this. Because one of the mean reasons Mitt Romney lost according to the pundits is he did not do better with minority communities. And in fact, if the next GOP nominee gets the same percentage that Romney got with Whites, they would have to almost double their vote with minorities in particular to Hispanic community if they wanted them to win the presidency. Do you see any candidate on the GOP side that you think could do that?

AGUILAR: Oh, absolutely. Many including Governor Bush, Marco Rubio, Ben Carson, Carly Fiorina. They are good and constructive on the issue of immigration. Donald Trump is not. And just look at the polling when it comes to Hispanic voters and the majority will tell you, they don't like Trump.

SALCEDO: You look at the polling nationwide. You look at the polling nationwide.

AGUILAR: Nationwide.

SALCEDO: Donald Trump's numbers are high and resonating on this issue for a reason, because --

KELLY: That's true. But we're talking about the Hispanic vote.  That's true.

(TALKING OVER EACH OTHER)

AGUILAR: You can shout all you want, but you're not addressing the question.

KELLY: I got to go.

SALCEDO: The question is this -- the question is this. Americans, including a lot of people in the Latino community, are tired of hearing, hey, there's just nothing that can be done about all of this illegal activity.

KELLY: I got it, I got it, I got it, I got it. But obviously the polls have shown that the language used has been an issue. And we'll have to leave it at that for now. Great to see you both.

SALCEDO: Bye, Megyn.

KELLY: Governor John Kasich is also pushing back on Mr. Trump after the businessman claimed credit for forcing Ford Motor Company to bring jobs back to America when in fact it was Governor Kasich who signed an agreement with Ford years ago to put those workers back on a line in Ohio. So what about this claim here from Mr. Trump?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Mexico took a Ford plant. I've been very tough on Ford. You have heard me talking about Ford. I heard last night that Ford is moving back to the United States. They may not do that deal. I get credit for that. I should get credit for that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KELLY: So what do you think is going on here?

GOV. JOHN KASICH, R-OHIO: Well, you know, Megyn -- Megyn, the thing is, look, you don't produce jobs through bombast or any kind of stuff like that. We were able to get Ford because we got a great workforce. We've taken Ohio from debt to surplus. We've reduced taxes. We do workforce. I mean, we're up 347,000 jobs in Ohio. We're a different state today, but we didn't do it by, you know, going and raiding other states or all this bombast.

KELLY: But you know, his point has been all along, you have to be strong as well, and that requires the projection of strength and that he's been out there on the campaign trail, hammering these companies who want to take their plants to Mexico, who then want to sell their goods to the United States. So while he may not deserve credit for this particular decision that was made long ago, is it not helpful to have him making the case?

KASICH: Well, look, I have some concerns with some of our trade agreements, as well. But you don't get to the point where you embarrass people. You don't get to the point where you pound them over the head.  Look, I understand business. And I know that they're not going to come to your place and create jobs because you yell at them. They're going to come to your place and they're going to create jobs because they think there's an environment where they can be successful and make a profit and have success.

KELLY: What about the fact that when it comes to performance, you know, he's atop the polls and with respect, you are not. So right now in the Real Clear average of all polls, you're in the 10th position and you're down in Iowa and you're down in New Hampshire. Same. Really low. So some people look at this and say, bombast? It works.

KASICH: Well, you know what, Megyn? It really doesn't. It doesn't work in campaigns either, because you build a campaign from the bottom up, not from the top down. And we've seen candidates who have had high poll numbers who faded like snow in the spring. You know, in a political campaign, because people watch. You don't put the roof on your house in one little poll to support your roof. You build your foundation up and build it higher and higher and then you have a topping off party when you put the roof on. And if you think you can win -- how do you think these political upsets happen? They happen because people have the organization and they put a time in. And so I'm very satisfied about this. And when people talk about national polls, I do as well as I think I'm going to do in New Hampshire. Megyn, everybody will be clamoring for an interview, but you'll be one of the first that will get one.

KELLY: Oh, I love to end on the promise of an exclusive. Thank you so much. Governor Kasich, always so great to see you.

KASICH: All right. Thanks, Megyn.

KELLY: All the best.

Well, we also have a fascinating story tonight from a man who has investigated numerous near death experiences. And he's here with his eye- opening findings.

Plus, a pair of Muslim truck drivers are fired for refusing to deliver alcohol on their routes siting their religious beliefs. Now they have won big in court, represented by the Obama administration.

Up next, we'll ask Judge Andrew Napolitano why the court sided with them but not the Christian bakers who don't want to take part on same sex weddings. And the Obama administration had a different position on that.  That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KELLY: Developing tonight, a jury has awarded a big payout to a pair of Muslim truck drivers who were fired after refusing to deliver alcoholic beverages, citing their religious convictions. The Obama administration actually represented the two Muslims in this case, but has sometimes taken a very different position in the case of Christians trying to assert their religious beliefs.

Judge Andrew Napolitano is our Fox News senior judicial analyst.  Judge, good to see you.

JUDGE ANDREW NAPOLITANO, FOX NEWS SENIOR JUDICIAL ANALYST: Good to be with you.

KELLY: So when it comes to the Muslim truck drivers, the Obama administration to the EEOC is all in, they have been wronged and this is what they said. "We are proud to support the rights of workers to equal treatment in the workplace without having to sacrificing their religious beliefs or practices. It's fundamental to the American principles of religious freedom and tolerance." But when it comes to the Christian bakers, it's not as fundamental.

NAPOLITANO: Correct. It's unfortunate when a government interferes in a private dispute over religious views and takes sides and chooses one religion over another. The EEOC, the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission --

KELLY: Uh-hm.

NAPOLITANO: -- is appointed by the President, goes around the country with investigators and decides whether the workers need to be represented.

KELLY: Yes.

NAPOLITANO: Why do they pick a situation like this where they are outwardly openly representing Muslims, who knew before they took the job that they would be delivering alcoholic beverages? Why take a job that is against your religion?

KELLY: This is the same arguments that the critics of Kim Davis made, that country clerk who wouldn't issue the marriage licenses to same sex couples, not to any couple but she was about the same sex couples, saying why did she take the job? If you can't take the job, don't take the job.  Very different position from the same people who are now defending the Muslims.

NAPOLITANO: Correct. Correct. But in that situation, I think she should have passed that obligation to issue the same-sex marriage licenses onto somebody else.

KELLY: She should have been granted an accommodation, based on her religious beliefs as the Muslims should have. But you either are sort of with them or you're against them on these religious accommodations.

NAPOLITANO: Well, that's what is wrong with this with them or against them. I don't like the idea of the government getting involved. These are private disputes in which the government has no interest. When the government picks and chooses winners and losers, it chooses specific private disputes and decides which one to side on, we always have an imbalanced and improper allocation of taxpayer resources and ultimately Megyn, I hate to see this. Decisions based on a political model rather than a moral model.

KELLY: That's what I was going to say. Is political bias comes up?  Now, the law is generally you have to give a religious accommodation, and accommodation to somebody asserting a religious belief unless it's too burdensome. Right. If it's like, look, we can, we never, the route is the route. Drive it and deliver the -- right?

NAPOLITANO: So, in this case with this truck drivers, in this case, the jury --

(CROSSTALK)

In this case the jury found that there were routes that did not have beer on them and they should have given it to these guys.

KELLY: Right.

NAPOLITANO: But the way the Feds intervened in the case, they wanted this case because they wanted to make the point that they've now made.

KELLY: And they championed the religious accommodation. However, when it comes to Kim Davis who didn't want to issue the same-sex marriage licenses or the Christian Bakers who don't want to make the cake, there's no such thing as a religious accommodation whether the government done with it.  

NAPOLITANO: All right. But when you worked with the government, when you're a public official and you don't like the job --

KELLY: You can still get an accommodation.

NAPOLITANO: Correct.

KELLY: Title seven applies to public and private. I got to go.

NAPOLITANO: -- applying for abortions in my courtroom, I didn't deny.  I sent it to another judge because I couldn't live with my son.

KELLY: Applying? Who was applying for an abortion in federal court - - in New Jersey court?

NAPOLITANO: Applying for permission for an abortion under unique circumstances. They knew not to assign the case to me. But they did. My job is not to stop the abortion, my job is to enforce the law, consistent with my conscience.

KELLY: Now, we've really taken a walk down Memory Lane. It's got to a weird place.

NAPOLITANO: Yes, we have.

KELLY: Great to see you.

NAPOLITANO: When I was on the bed, you were in law school.

KELLY: When I was in my crib.

(LAUGHTER)

I wish.

NAPOLITANO: Love you.

KELLY: Love you, my dear.

(LAUGHTER)

All right. Moving on. New fallout tonight after the head of the New York Police Union called for a boycott of one of the most famous Hollywood directors.

Plus, the FBI Director James Comey taking senior fire from Liberals and Democrats all the way up to the White House tonight, his bosses, after he shared his thoughts on skyrocketing crime rates and the Left did not appreciate what he said.

Marc Thiessen and former assistant FBI Director Ron Hosko are next on a critical moment in the life and death debate on violent crime.  

(COMMERCIAL BREAJ)

KELLY: ... and former FBI director Ron Hosko, are next on a critical moment in the life and death debate on violent crime.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KELLY: Developing tonight, the director of the FBI touching off an angry new debate as he speaks to the nation's police chiefs about an explosion of violent crime across this country in the last year.

Chicago recently, saw 57 people shot in a single weekend. Four of whom died. The second weekend in a row more than 50 were shot in the Windy City, including a 10-year-old girl who took a bullet to the neck as she tried to hide in a church while gangs blasted away on the street.

In Los Angeles, the chief of police just compared his town to the Wild West, after a weekend where 19 people were shot in two days, five of them fatally.

Just last night in Cleveland, Ohio, a 15-year-old was killed in a city where murder rates have reached a level not seen in six years.

And in Charlotte, North Carolina, a frustrated deputy police chief held a news conference last week on spiking crime rates, saying people are just pulling out guns and shooting each other.

So, this past Friday, when FBI director James Comey had a chance to speak to cops from many of these cities, he said this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES COMEY, FBI DIRECTOR: Our officers answering 911 calls but avoiding the informal contact that keeps bad guys from standing around, especially with guns.

I spoke to officers privately in one big city precinct who described being surrounded by young people with mobile phones held high, taunting them when they get out of their cars.

They said to me, we feel under siege and we don't feel much like getting out of our cars. And so, the suggestion, the question that's been asked of me is, are these kinds of things changing police behavior all over the country?

And is that what explains the map and the calendar? The honest answer is, I don't know. And I don't know that that explains it entirely.

But I do have a strong sense that some part of the explanation is a chill wind that is blown through law enforcement over the last year. And that wind is surely changing behavior.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KELLY: Groups like Amnesty International have already blasted his remarks, saying there's no evidence for his position. A complaint quickly echoed by the White House.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Recent comments by the FBI director, James Comey, he seemed to suggest that he believe there is something to the so- called Ferguson effects that he believes that part of the explanation for an increase in violent crime may be because you have police officers who are hesitant to engage.

JOSH EARNEST, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I will say that the available evidence at this point does not support the notion that law enforcement officers around the country are shying away from fulfilling their responsibilities.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KELLY: Marc Thiessen joins us in the moment on the White House messaging here.

But first, we're joined by Ron Hosko, president of the law enforcement legal defense fund and former assistant director of the FBI.

Ron, good to see you tonight. How extraordinary to hear the head of the FBI speak frankly, and he had words of wisdom from both sides of this debate, but clearly, his message was not in step with that of the White House. What does that tell us?

RONALD HOSKO, FORMER FBI DIRECTOR: Right. So, this seeming pushback that's coming from the white house and from the left feels like it's in response to Jim Comey not being in lockstep with their narrative of what's going on.

And that narrative is the police are wrong regardless of what the event is. Comey is smart. He repeated much of that speech today. It is multilayered. He's not letting anyone off the look and he is lamenting the lack of better data. Even though he is talking to police.

I don't know who the White House he's talking to. I don't know what sort of data the White House spokesman is referring to. But here is the director of the FBI doing what his mission is, engaging with the police to try to understand this problem.

KELLY: He went through it, city by city, and said look at this place and look at that place. I'm trying to find the common thread on why we've had such spikes in the murder rates.

And he said, this is the explanation, the only real explanation that makes sense to me, is that cops are worried about the YouTube moment. They've been told by their police chiefs, we don't want to see any viral videos and it's taunting them and its point was the people who are getting killed are young, African-American men.

HOSKO: He is very concerned about those trapped, the urban poor who are in very difficult neighborhoods, difficult-to-police neighborhoods and those who don't have an opportunity to leave, to escape that violence.

And the role of police in getting out of their car in proactive policing and engaging people in quelling that violence, he's very concerned about it.

I thought his speech again today, was incredibly thoughtful. He is asking -- he's looking for professional policing, too. He's not excusing bad behavior by the police.

(CROSSTALK)

KELLY: At all. If you read this whole thing you'll see he's not.

HOSKO: But he's very concerned about this YouTube effect as he refers to it.

KELLY: He got a standing ovation after those remarks last year.

HOSKO: He did.

KELLY: He got smattering of applause. Ron, always great to see you.

HOSKO: I was there. Thank you.

KELLY: Joining me now is Marc Thiessen, Fox News contributor, former chief speechwriter for President George W. Bush. And that's the reality, Marc, is that when the cops sit in their cars out earnest aggressive out in the field, the good cops who are worried about becoming the next Darren Wilson, more people die.

MARC THIESSEN, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: No. That's exactly right. And it's the people who are most at risk are the African-Americans. If you believe that black lives matter, you ought to be really concerned about the Ferguson effect.

Because if cops are staying in their cars and then they're in an African-American neighborhood, it's not the cops that are killing African- Americans, it's criminals. And if criminals are emboldened, then more African-Americans are going to die.

If you believe in criminal justice reform and sentencing reform, when murder rates were at historic lows, people were open to that. But as if they sky at murder rates start skyrocketing, you could see popular support for that evaporating. So, there's a lot of political ramifications. We're not taking this seriously.

KELLY: He went through it, he said I've looked at all of it. Is it that we've arrested a lot of the gang members and smaller groups are forming, is it the early release of prisoners from jails?

And he said, this is the mostly explanation. The so-called YouTube effect, there's called the Ferguson effect. The point is, the spotlight being, you know, shined on the police officers who now feel under scrutiny for just doing their jobs.

What does it say, this guy, Comey, he's a brave soul. I mean, it's not often you see somebody in the administration come out and break with the messaging on an issue that obviously, right now is very political, the Black Lives Matter movement and cops.

THIESSEN: No, very much so. And he did it in the Bush administration on the NSA surveillance program, where he actually threatened to resign if President Bush reauthorized that surveillance program without certain changes to make it what he thought were require to make it legal.

So, this is a guy who's not willing to buck to political pressure. But he's also not the only one who's saying this.

Obama's former chief of staff, Chicago Mayor, Rahm Emanuel, said that police officers are telling him that they are afraid to get out of their cars because, well, I don't want to -- is my career -- if I get out of this car, is my career going to be on the line?

So, this is Obama's former Chief of Staff, who is saying the exact same thing.

KELLY: Yes. What did he say it's been the fetal effect. He said "We've allowed our police department to get fetal, Rahm Emanuel said.

Last question, quickly. What does this tell you, this is also the guy investigating Hillary Clinton, Comey.

THIESSEN: That is very true. If I was Hillary Clinton I would actually be worried about this. Because this is a guy who is bucking the way the White House and the Justice Department political types were not happy at all about his saying this. He didn't care. He said it anyway.

He pushed back on Bush on this surveillance program. This is a guy who doesn't care what the political types have to say. So, he's investigating Hillary Clinton's e-mails. I think that if he minds something, if the FBI finds something, they'll go with it.

KELLY: You know, it's heartening because he's truly a political and it seems like an honest broker. So, whichever way he comes down, especially on that Clinton thing, it sounds like the nation can trust him. Marc, thank you.

THIESSEN: Thanks, Megyn.

KELLY: Well, we also have angry new fallout tonight from what happened when a Hollywood director decided to attack the NYPD.

Plus, a must-see conversation with one researcher about what he discovered after investigating hundreds of near-death experiences. Don't miss this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KELLY: A growing anger among New York's finest after Quentin Tarantino attacks cops at a police protest in New York and it came just days after a police officer's murder here. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUINTEN TARANTINO: I'm a human being with a conscience. And when I see murder, I cannot stand by and I have to call the murdered, the murdered, and I have to call the murderers, the murderers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KELLY: Joining me now, Mark Fuhrman, a Fox News contributor and former LAPD homicide detective, and Carl Dix, who is co-founder of both Rise Up October and the Stop Mass Incarceration Network. He was an organizer at this protest.

Good to see you both. And now, the head of the NYPD police union is calling for a boycott of Tarantino's films after what he has said, saying he's made a living glorifying crime and violence and is a cop hater. Mark, your thoughts on that?

MARK FUHRMAN, FORMER LAPD DETECTIVE: Well, I think it's not only appropriate, I think they should take it a step further. This director could not operate in any city without the help of the police department, without permits from the city, and the actual control of streets in many of his movies.

So, I think the police should stop doing that, stop volunteering to work those. But I think it's totally appropriate. He's representing -- he's misrepresenting facts. He's calling officers murderers that were actually the victims and supporting thugs like Michael Brown as an example of murderer.

KELLY: Carl.

FUHRMAN: And it's a clearly by law, by Grand Jury and everything else. So, this is completely incorrect.

KELLY: Carl, was the timing of this event unfortunate four days after a New York City cop was shot?

(CROSSTALK)

CARL DIX, RISE UP OCTOBER CO-FOUNDER: No, it was not unfortunate at all. Look, police are getting away with murder in this country. We saw what happened to Eric Garner, choked to death. We saw cops roll up on Tamir Rice, a 12-year-old boy with a toy gun and kill him within less than two seconds of coming up on him.

There have been murders like that all across the country. Murderers have been police. Just this year alone, more than 930 people have been killed by police, and police admit that 300 of those people were unarmed and doing nothing wrong.

I can't call that anything other than murder, even though the legal system exonerates them -- they exonerate them all the time. So, people needed to come together, needed to say that this must stop.

And no, there was no reason to call it off to postpone it.

KELLY: OK.

DIX: And I am glad that Quentin Tarantino came to it. Because like he said, he's a human being. He can't stand aside when that kind of suffering is going down. I think more people need to do that.

(CROSSTALK)

KELLY: Well, I mean, the thing about Tarantino, is Mark, you tell me because he's certainly glorified violence, including torture of police officers in his young movies.

(CROSSTALK)

DIX: You've heard of a movie, right, Ms. Kelly?

KELLY: Well, but it' hard to take the high realm when you deal for a living in creating violence, perpetuating violence.

DIX: That's a film. You know, this is reality that we're talking about. This is reality.

KELLY: All right. Let Mark weigh in.

DIX: This is reality.

KELLY: Go ahead, Mark.

FUHRMAN: Well, I mean, he does glorify violence in every one of these films almost to a ridiculous degree. It's actually probably the most...

(CROSSTALK)

DIX: No, it's a movie.

KELLY: Go ahead, Mark. Just let him finish then I'll give you the floor. Go ahead, mark.

FUHRMAN: Let me talk. When you have a group that misrepresents the facts, there's nothing that can make them happy. There's no facts that will make them happy. When you call a justifiable homicide a murderer, when people, even black people are on a Grand Jury and they still find that it was not murder, it doesn't do any good.

This group is going to find fault with everything, the law, the government, the police. There's nothing to appease them.

KELLY: OK. Go ahead, Carl.

DIX: Well, look, police have been killing people. I saw Eric Garner being murdered. It goes into court...

(CROSSTALK)

FUHRMAN: Black people kill people. Black people kill black people.

DIX: Yes, and we can talk about that, too. But you want to change the subject. I saw Eric Garner murdered.

FUHRMAN: I don't want to change the subject. It is the subject.

DIX: Hey, look, we can't talk together and I don't want to sing with you, so, shut up and listen to me. I saw those murders go down.

(CROSSTALK)

FUHRMAN: Don't tell me to shut down.

KELLY: I apologize, but I think you're going to have to listen to me. We're going to have a break in four seconds.

DIX: Everybody saw them. And here's the question. What side do you want...

KELLY: I thank both of you for being here. We'll continue this at a time.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: From the world headquarters of Fox News, it's The Kelly File with Megyn Kelly.

KELLY: One in 25 people have had a near-death experience according to the research from our next guest. So, when someone escapes death and tells their story, they may hold remarkable clues that can possibly teach us about a life to come.

Pastor John Burke is the author of "Imagine Heaven: Near-Death Experiences, God's Promises and the Exhilarating Future that Awaits You." He's also the founder and lead pastor of Gateway Church in Austin, Texas. John, good to see you.

JOHN BURKE, GATEWAY CHURCH FOUNDER & LEAD PASTOR: Thanks for having me.

KELLY: So, near-death experiences, you believe in them now.

BURKE: Yes.

KELLY: You studied over a thousand cases of them.

BURKE: Yes.

KELLY: You didn't used to be a religious man but then became one. Explain that to us.

BURKE: Well, when my dad was dying of cancer, someone gave him the first book on near-death experiences "Life After Life." And I picked it up one night and I read it cover to cover. And after reading it, I thought, oh, my gosh, like if this is true, this is the most important thing I could possibly find out about.

KELLY: What were the commonalities you heard in the stories?

BURKE: Yes. In "Imagine Heaven" I write about 12 commonalities like we're ourselves. We have a body and -- but they talk about how we don't just have five senses. Like we have 50 senses.

KELLY: Do we look the way we looked when we died or do we look the way at our favorite age? How do we look?

BURKE: Yes. Well, that's an interesting question. Because people say a little bit different things. And I have my own theory I come up with in the book, but, people basically say we're in our prime and we recognize each other. And they see beauty, not unlike earth, mountains and trees and, you know, gorgeous flowers, but they experience it in other dimensions of time and space.

KELLY: Is there a peace?

BURKE: Oh, it's unbelievable. People talk about -- well, many people talk about being in the presence of this man of light that they know to be God, and in His presence, they never want to leave. What people always say is, I felt like I was home. I felt like that's where I belong.

KELLY: OK. But you know what the skeptics say, this is all BS.

BURKE: Oh, absolutely.

KELLY: And this is people who are having maybe pre-death experiences...

BURKE: Yes.

KELLY: ... and they're connoting something that they heard on television or read in a book.

BURKE: Yes. Well, and I was an engineer before a pastor. So, I'm a very analytical mind and I ask a lot of the same questions. And I've interviewed doctors who have had these experiences.

And I write in chapter two about skeptical doctors in the afterlife, what it was that convinced so many cardiologists and oncologists that these are actually showing us some picture of what's to come.

KELLY: Is there anything that jumps out at you as most persuasive?

BURKE: Well, there are a lot of accounts. But like, for instance, there is an article written in The Lancet, a prestigious medical journal, about a man who came in cardiac arrest in the hospital. His dentures were taken out, he was unconscious, they did CPR, he was unconscious for a whole week. Moved to another room.

When he comes to, he tells them where his dentures were, that they were put in this crash cart in this other room. He couldn't have possibly seen that except he said he left his body, he witnessed what had happened and...

(CROSSTALK)

KELLY: But can't there be, you know, the hearing is still there and if something is seeping into the computer that is your brain.

BURKE: Yes. And I talk about accounts like that. Pam Reynolds where she -- I can't go into all. But she had clickers in her ear, her eyes were taped shut, no brain waves, no heart, no heartbeat, and yet, she saw exactly what was going on and describe the saw they were using to operate on her brain. It didn't look anything like a saw...

KELLY: Wow.

BURKE: ... but she described it in detail.

KELLY: You know, that book "Life After Life" I can say this really helped my mom after my dad died back in 1985. And I know it helped you and was the beginning of this. It is called the "Imagine Heaven" by John Burke. Thank you for being here.

BURKE: Thanks for having me here.

KELLY: Let's hope you're right. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KELLY: Big show tomorrow night. Glen Beck, Charles Krauthammer and Brit Hume. Final question, do you believe in life after death in accounts like we discussed with John Burke?

Facebook.com/thekellyfile, on Twitter @megynkelly.

Thanks for watching, everyone. I'm Megyn Kelly. This is "The Kelly File."

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