Ted Cruz, Ben Carson sound off on first Democratic debate

GOP candidate speaks out on 'The Kelly File,' says Democratic candidates want to double down on Obama's failed agenda


This is a rush transcript from "The Kelly File," October 14, 2015. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

MEGYN KELLY, HOST: Breaking tonight, as the dust settles from the Democrats first debate of the 2016 race for the White House, some political analysts are suggesting one thing is very clear.  This group of candidates is running further to the Left than any in recent history.

Welcome to "The Kelly File," everyone. I'm Megyn Kelly. Just a week ago, a new research study for Princeton University suggested that the divide between political parties in this country is getting wider than ever with Republicans moving right and the Democrats embracing ideas that once were considered political suicide. As if to prove the point, last night's democratic debate found five presidential contenders at various points promoting socialism suggesting Black Lives may have more value than all lives and advocating free health care for illegal immigrants. Here's a quick sampling of some of those moments.


ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: How can any kind of socialist win a general election in the United States?

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS, D-VT., PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, we're going to win because first we have to explain what democratic socialism is. I think we should look to countries like Denmark, like Sweden and Norway and learn from what they have accomplished for their working people.

COOPER: You don't consider yourself a capitalist, though?

SANDERS: I believe in a society where all people do well. Not just a handful of billionaires.

HILLARY CLINTON, D-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: What we have to do every so often in America is save capitalism from itself. And I think what Senator Sanders is saying certainly makes sense in the terms of the inequality that we have.

COOPER: Do black lives matter or do all lives matter. Let's put that question to Senator Sanders.

SANDERS: Black lives matter.

COOPER: And without the 2008 bailout, the U.S. was possibly days away from a complete meltdown. Despite that, you still voted against it. As president, would you stand by your principles, if it risk the country's financial stability?

SANDERS: No, I would not let the economy collapse.

DANA BASH, CNN ANCHOR: Senator Sanders, you have mentioned a couple of times, you do have a plan to make public colleges free for everyone. Do you think taxpayers should pick up the tab for wealthy children?

SANDERS: Every kid in this country should be able to get a high school education regardless of the income of their family. I think we have to say that is true for everybody going to college.

BASH: Senator Sanders' plan to expand Social Security, to make Medicare available to all Americans. Is that something you would support and if not, why not?

CLINTON: I would focus on helping those people who need it the most.

BASH: Carly Fiorina, the first female CEO of a Fortune 50 company argues, if the government requires paid leave, it will force small businesses to, quote, "hire fewer people and create fewer jobs."

CLINTON: And I think this is typical Republicans fair tactics.

BASH: Secretary Clinton, even many people who agree with you might say, look, this is very hard to do, especially in today's day and age.  There are so many people who say, really, another government program?

CLINTON: I know we can afford it because we're going to make the wealthy pay for it.

COOPER: Thank you. Senator, Senator --

CLINTON: That is the way to get it done.


KELLY: Joining us tonight with their reactions, presidential candidates Senator Ted Cruz and Dr. Ben Carson. But we begin tonight with Dana Perino, who is co-host of "The Five" right here on FNC. And the former White House press secretary under President George W. Bush. We are going to make the wealthy pay. And anybody who suggests we can't give all of these things away without undermining the debt or the financial situation is engaging in a republican scare tactic.

DANA PERINO, CO-HOST, "THE FIVE": If you were a democrat and you were watching last night's debate, you were having a great time.  Because it was all the marketing jargon buzz words that make you say, oh, my gosh, that's exactly what I wanted to hear. And there were no follow-up questions to say, really? Because what about extra wires, maybe it's because there wasn't enough time in the debate, and they are questions I'll have to answer later. Bernie Sanders is doing well, especially with the youth, on the focus groups that you showed last night after the debate.  The focus groups really like Bernie Sanders. But the media likes Hillary Clinton. And I think what she showed last night is that she's going to be able to wipe this slate clean and she will be the nominee.

KELLY: How is this changed from what we saw with Hillary Clinton just eight years ago when she ran? I mean, they didn't seem to be this open about taking money from the rich and giving it to the poor.

PERINO: Actually, Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama in that election, when they fought it out in 2008, bend over backwards to try to show that they were not wanting to redistribute money. That they were trying to push themselves far enough away on many issues actually. What she said last night about the Second Amendment is so far from what she said in 2008.


PERINO: And she showed her lot of --

KELLY: She called herself I think pro-gun or pro-Second Amendment when she was running against Barack Obama.

PERINO: Pro-Church -- gun-toting, pro-church goer or something like that.

KELLY: Right.

PERINO: And this time around, it could be good politics. Because what we're finding is that the party always had a little bit of a left strain. But that left strain has grown. And that really is not because of Hillary Clinton or Bernie Sanders. It's because of Barack Obama.  President Obama was determined to change the way that he thought that the Democratic Party should lead and he's been able to accomplish that.

KELLY: It's amazing when you see the flip-flopping of the positions on guns, on trade, the list goes on when it comes to Hillary. She says, well, we've all changed a couple of our positions, right? That's not what they said when Mitt Romney had changed some of his positions. It was -- he's a flip-flopper, he doesn't have any core believes, you can't trust him. And now, what it is? Huh?

PERINO: And she would -- but the signaling last night that she reserves the right to change her position again in a general election because that is what would be politically expedient. Here's an interesting thing on the Left. One of the things that she's being attacked for, from her left, is that she said she is for trying to keep Social Security solvent into the future. Now, the far Left says, oh my gosh, that means that she actually wants to change something and reform the system. So, basically, what they're saying is that Hillary Clinton can't even -- it's too far to the right of even FDR. He said the same thing. But it's a tale, it's a little bit of a thing where it's, like, oh my gosh, she might actually tried to reduce benefits. That's not what she was saying.

KELLY: Uh-hm. You're going to say that. That doesn't mean you're going to raise the retirement age. You're going to do something that the far left hates.

PERINO: That's right. And think about her keystone quote. That was terrible. Remember John Kerry?

KELLY: I didn't take a position on keystone --  

PERINO: It reminded me the first thing I thought of was John Kerry in 2004 where I voted against it before -- I voted for it before I voted against it.

KELLY: Right.

PERINO: It's the same type of thing. It will hurt her in the general?

KELLY: You think so? Because right now it seems like she's smelling like a rose if you read the press today.

PERINO: Well, that's because she hasn't had anybody pushing up against her. When the Republicans have a candidate or two or three, they'll be able to attack her and she'll have to answer for that.

KELLY: Okay. Dana Perino, good to see you tonight.

PERINO: Thank you.

KELLY: As always. Joining me now with reaction, republican presidential candidate and Texas Senator Ted Cruz. Senator, good to see you tonight. So, what does that montage and the debate we saw last night tell you about the Democratic Party?

SEN. TED CRUZ, R-TEXAS, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, Megyn, it's great to join you this evening. You know, last night's debate, it was more socialism, more pacifism, more weakness and a whole lot less constitution.  Last night's debate, I'll give them credit for honesty. Every one of them says they want to double down on Barack Obama's failed agenda. You know, striking in all of that, they have no solutions to actually bring back jobs and economic growth. Their only solution is they want to spend more. They want more debt and they want to go after our constitutional rights.

KELLY: They actually had a discussion on the presidential stage about getting rid of capitalism. Okay? So -- and the defense of capitalism.  The full-throated defense of capitalism that we heard from Hillary Clinton was we have to save it from itself.

CRUZ: Well, listen. Last night was an evening with every democrat trying to explain how they're just as much as a socialist as Bernie Sanders is.

KELLY: When you've got the people cheering Bernie Sanders -- by the way Bernie Sanders has not ruled out a 90 percent tax rate. Nine percent.  He's okay with leaving you with 10 percent of your money. And they're cheering him. How are you -- how does Ted Cruz, if he's a republican nominee, ever, ever get these people to vote for you.

CRUZ: Well, it's why the modern Democratic Party is getting smaller and smaller and smaller. What does it say that they're having a hard time finding anyone to run for president who isn't nearly 207 years old? You're not getting new and fresh ideas. But last night did illustrate the Democrats are the party of government. And you know what I thought was particularly striking. If you listen to each of them prattle on about income inequality. Without one of them acknowledging that their policies expand income inequality under Barack Obama's failed big government policies.

The top one percent, the millionaires and billionaires of the Democrats love the demagogues. They were demagoguing last night. They earned a higher share of our income than any year since 1928. The people that have been hurt under the Obama economy have been the most vulnerable.  It's been young people. It's been African-Americans, it's been Hispanics, it's been single moms. It's been people struggling to achieve the American dream. And what the Democrats are all about is trying to buy votes, trying to play cronyism, paying off their favorite special interests.

Those who walk the corridors of power in the Obama administration have gotten fat and happy. You know, one of the numbers that I think summed up last night, those Democrats attack the NRA 14 times. Attacking a group that protects the bill of rights in the entire debate. They mentioned Israel once. This is the group the Democrats that won't stand for Israel, that won't stand up to Iran, that won't stand-up to ISIS, but will come after American citizens trying to strip away our bill of rights.

KELLY: I got it.

CRUZ: Last night was an audition for who would wear the government jack boot. And that's why the American people are ready to change the path that we're on.

KELLY: This is why -- this is why he was the big debate champ college. Because he kicks that last word in. Well, we always appreciate, Senator, good to see you.

CRUZ: Thank you, Megyn. God bless you.

KELLY: All the best.

Well, at the top of the hour, we showed you what happened when the Democrats were asked, do Black Lives Matter or do all lives matter. Dr. Ben Carson is next with his answer to that and his reaction to an interesting moment with Ronald Reagan and Bernie Sanders.

Plus, a republican group has hit Hillary Clinton with a new ad on Benghazi that is so tough a whole group of Democrats is demanding it get pulled right away. We'll give you the first look when Congressman Jason Chaffetz joins us in moments.

And then, crime in the President's home town is hitting record levels.  More than 60 murders just last month. And since Chicago has some of the toughest gun laws in the country, we'll show you who the mayor is blaming just ahead.


MARQ CLAXTON, FORMER NYPD DETECTIVE: The theory about this Ferguson effect and how police officers' documentation -- video documentation of police officers engaged in all types of behavior would have a direct impact on a police officers' willingness to actually work is really offensive.



KELLY: Breaking tonight, a new fallout from a big moment in last night's debate, over the Black Lives Matter movement. Over the last several months, the group has made a point of targeting democratic candidates. At one point, they literally took over a Bernie Sanders event and drove him off of the public stage. In another point, they effectively forced Governor Martin O'Malley to apologize for telling a crowd that, quote, "All lives matter." So naturally, this became a question for the five people that led last night's debate.


ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Do black lives matter or do all lives matter. Let's put that question to Senator Sanders.

SANDERS: Black lives matter.

COOPER: Governor O'Malley, the question from Arthur was, do black lives matter, do all lives matter?

MARTIN O'MALLEY, D-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Black lives matter. And we have a lot of work to do to reform our criminal justice system and to address race relations in our country.

COOPER: Secretary Clinton? What would you do for African-Americans in this country that President Obama couldn't?

CLINTON: We need a new new deal for communities of color.


COOPER: Senator Webb?

JIM WEBB, D-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I hope I can get that kind of time here. Look, as the president of the United States, every life in this country matters.


KELLY: Joining me now, republican presidential candidate Dr. Ben Carson. Dr. Carson, good to see you. What did you make of that exchange?

DR. BEN CARSON, R-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, so typical of political correctness in our country. Of course all lives matter. And all lives includes black lives. And we have to stop submitting to those who wanted to divide us up into all of these special interest groups and start thinking about what works for everybody. And, you know, there are a lot of policies that this administration has embraced, that hurt black lives that hurt all people who are in the underclass, you know, the way that we have doubled the national debt and basically abolished the banking system savings accounts and bonds and things like that, which used to be a mechanism for poor people and middle class people to grow their money. It virtually doesn't exist anymore. You have to have risk tolerance so you can go on to the stock market. That tends to happen with people with more income.

KELLY: Uh-hm. It's interesting because Bernie Sanders says, black lives matter but his economic plan according to the Wall Street Journal would send us, would add an additional $18 trillion to our debt and query what that would do to the economy.


KELLY: Let me ask you this. First of all, did you watch the debate?  And what did you think?

CARSON: I watched most of it. You know, I kept falling asleep. But, you know, when I woke up, I would see parts.

KELLY: You did not find it particularly exciting?

CARSON: Well, I'll tell you what was interesting. Was that the candidates really seemed to pretty much embrace the philosophy of the current administration. And it is that philosophy that has led us to this very dismal place. I don't think most people think we're moving in the right direction. And it sets 2016 up for a magnificent time in the world of politics because we will be able to contrast a system that is up for by the people with a system that is up for and by the government. And for big government spending. And we will be able to explain to people, you know, what the national debt means. What the fiscal gap means. And how this is a house of card that is about to collapse. And when people come around and start talking about free college and free phones and free this and free that, it is not free. And we'll be able to explain in-depth this to people. And unless you're not very bright, you'll be able to see what's going on.

KELLY: What did you make on the attacks, you know, on the one percent and the billionaires. I mean, we teed up the following because listen to the difference between these two men. And the message, Ronald Reagan brought to America versus what we heard from Bernie Sanders last night.  Watch.


RONALD REAGAN, 40TH PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We have so many people who can't see a fat man standing beside a thin one without coming to the conclusion that the fat man got that way by taking advantage of the thin one. So they're going to solve all the problems of human misery through government and government planning.  

SANDERS: It is immoral and wrong that the top one-tenth-of-one percent in this country own almost 90 percent, own almost as much wealth as the bottom 90 percent. That it is wrong today in a rigged economy that 57 percent of all new income is going to the top one percent. I think we should look to countries like Denmark, like Sweden and Norway and learn for what they have accomplished for their working people.


KELLY: Your thoughts.

CARSON: Well, some of the individuals who want to fundamentally change America make the point that you must always keep class warfare on the front burner and appeal to, you know, the basic instincts of jealousy.  And this is ridiculous. You can take all the money of the top one percent and when you look at our fiscal gap, which is over $200 trillion and you apply all the money of the top one percent, you're not going to get very far that. That's not the answer. The answer is stoking up the most powerful economic engine the world has ever known and getting off the ridiculous regulations, every one of which costs money in terms of goods and services which hits poor people and the middle class more than anybody else. It is the asinine policies that are causing a problem. And we will explain that to people. They will understand this.

KELLY: That was another thing we heard a lot of last night was calls for new regulations. Regulate this, regulate that. Dr. Ben Carson, thank you for being here.

CARSON: Always a pleasure.

KELLY: Also tonight, as violent crimes hits the new high in Chicago, Mayor Rahm Emanuel is now saying, the cops may have the responsibility, not the gangs or the drugs. Definitely not the mayor's policies. That has touched off an angry debate. We'll have that just ahead.

Plus, a new political ad hits Hillary Clinton so hard on the Benghazi terror attack that all of the Democrats on the Benghazi committee are demanding that it will be pulled. We'll report, you decide when Congressman Chaffetz joins us, next.


GLEN DOHERTY, KIA BENGHAZI: Dear Hillary Clinton, I'd like to ask you why you ignored calls for help in Benghazi and then four Americans were murdered.




CLINTON: We had a murderous Dictator Gaddafi who had American blood on his hands as I'm sure you remember threatening to massacre large numbers of the Libyan people. Our response which I think was smart power at its best is that the United States will not leave this. We will provide essential, unique capabilities that we have. But the Europeans and the Arabs had to be first over the line. We did not put one single American soldier on ground in Libya. And I'll say this to the American people.

COOPER: But American citizens did lose their lives in Benghazi.

CLINTON: Well, I'll get to that. But I think it's important since I understand Senator Webb's very strong feelings about this to explain where we were then and to point out that I think President Obama made the right decision at the time.


KELLY: As Hillary Clinton was last night pressed to defend her track record on Benghazi, a Republican group released a scathing new ad hitting Mrs. Clinton was suggestions that she ignored the calls for help that night. It is running in several swing states and it ran during them -- during the debate last night. And here it is.


VOICE OVER: Dear Hillary Clinton, I'd like to ask you why you ignored calls for help in Benghazi and then four Americans were murdered.

I'd like to know why you lied saying the attack was a response to an internet video.

I'd like to hear why you tried to silence the Benghazi whistleblower.

But Mrs. Clinton, I can't. What difference does it make?


KELLY: Hmm. And that is Mr. Stevens' grave at the end there.

Joining me now is the chairman for the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, Congressman Jason Chaffetz. It's good to see you tonight.


KELLY: Wow! So, Mrs. Clinton's spokesman for her campaign has called this ad disgusting. And the Democrats on the Benghazi committee came out and called on Chairman Gowdy to pull the ad, to use his authority to pull it immediately and saying those images of his grave are being used without permission. Does they have a point?

CHAFFETZ: You don't suppress the First Amendment. We have a First Amendment right to speak and offer political speech. So, no, those questions, I think America has those questions. Why is it that they were left in this death trap that we call Benghazi? Why did they do the work ahead of time? Why did they not call, answer those calls for help? And then why did she, for weeks, lead the American people to believe that it was a video, a video that was not playing itself out in Libya. That was not the truth.

KELLY: You know, one interesting about her talking about the situation on the ground in Libya before, very proudly, you know, standing by, smart policy, that's best. That's one of the issues that Congress is investigating. Why were we so not present? Why were we so relaxed? Why didn't we protect the embassy better, understanding the threat? Were we trying to make it look like there was no problem when, in fact, we knew based on the Intel, that there was?

CHAFFETZ: Well, first of all, if you want to go to war, then you go to the Congress. The President went to the United Nations. That's where he said he got the permission. You know what we need to do, we need to call it war, war, we need to call terrorists, terrorists, we need to call treaties, treaties in this country. But she should have come to the Congress and made that case. Because she didn't go to the American people and they did. I actually went to Tripoli. Literally, days after the attack, I was the first member of Congress there. Not the smartest thing I ever did. But it was so insecure, they wouldn't let me spend the night there. But they let the ambassador spend the night there.

KELLY: But she declares it over. I mean, she is using that Kevin McCarthy comment suggesting that this committee is political. It succeeded in bringing her poll numbers down as the end of the matter.

CHAFFETZ: That the Republicans didn't set up her own private e-mail.  The Republicans didn't transfer classified information across that.

KELLY: But she thinks everything is done. She says, I had been investigated by seven different committees, including some with, you know, Republicans heading them up and I have been exonerated on this issue.

CHAFFETZ: It was just this past Friday Megyn that literally, for the first time, the committee got Ambassador Stevens' e-mails. This past Friday. They've been hiding this stuff for years.

KELLY: The State Department has not released those until last week.

CHAFFETZ: They did not get those. They've had them for less than a week now. I mean, that's how bad it is. Until the State Department, the Department of Defense and the White House can certify to the American people that they have given all the documents, not a percentage, not, you know, not a certain number, all of the documents to the committee, why should the committee stop.

KELLY: But here's a question for you. This Benghazi happened before the 2012 re-election of Barack Obama.


KELLY: It was out there and it was out there big.


KELLY: Didn't bring him down, didn't stop him from getting re- elected. Why would it stop her?

CHAFFETZ: Well, it's all about truth and candor. And what would she do as president and commander-in-chief. But the question before Congress is not about the election. The question is, how did it create this situation? How did they get into this position where four Americans were killed? As a nation, we are self-critical. That's what we do and we need to find the truth.

KELLY: Yes. And we'll watch her testify later on this month. And hope we the members of Congress will actually have questions this time instead of grandstanding like we saw the last time. He's not on the committee so I won't hold you responsible. Great to see you.

CHAFFETZ: Thank you.

KELLY: Well, we've been tracking a big story developing overseas where Israel is on high alert now after a series of attacks. But what is actually happening there may be very different from what you're seeing here including from our own administration. We'll show you how, next.

Plus, last night's debate featured angry complaints about political spending, its evils.

And just ahead, we will talk about the man the Democrats love to hate the most in this country. The so-called shadowy billionaire. Charles Koch and his decision after years to finally break his silence and speak to us.


KELLY: Do you believe that the Democrats, including the President, have tried to make bogeymen out of you and your brother, David?   



KELLY: Breaking tonight, Israel is on high alert following a growing wave of terror attacks.

Israeli troops now being sent to city across the country to assist the more than 4,000 extra police officers who have been deployed. And today, we're seeing some graphic new videos showing just how brutal the violence has become.

In a moment, we will get to the controversy over how the Obama administration is now reacting to this.

But first, Trace Gallagher has the story of what is unfolding tonight. Trace?

TRACE GALLAGHER, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Megyn, this is the worst violence in Israel since last years' war with Hamas, the terrorist group that controls Gaza. In just the past few weeks eight Israelis have been killed, dozens wounded in a rush of attacks that include shootings. Several stabbings, and at least one stoning.

We have disturbing video of a man Israeli police call a terrorists ramming his car into a Jerusalem bus station getting out, stabling, and killing a man. That attacker was arrested. At a separate bus stop, a 70- year-old Israeli woman was attacked and wounded at night point. That suspect was killed by a police.

And still more graphic pictures of two Palestinian boys with knives chasing down, stabbing, and critically wounding an Israeli child riding a bicycle. One of the young Palestinian then tried to stab Israeli police but were shot and killed.

The parents of the boy who was shot say he did nothing wrong. And now a cartoon which we will not show you of an Israeli soldier standing over the body of a Palestinian boy has gone viral. Israel is accusing Palestinian authorities of using social media to radicalize and encourage young people to attack.

Palestinian authority President Mahmoud Abbas blames Israel for the uptick in violence. The White House blames both. We should note. Much of the violence is centered near the gates of the old city of Jerusalem. That's the entrance to the holy site for both Jews and Muslims. There's concern the violence could lead to a third into Fatah or Palestinian uprising. Megyn.

KELLY: Trace, thank you. The administration today responding to these attacks on our best ally in the Middle East by suggesting that both sides should be working to calm things down. And despite Secretary Kerry's announcement that he hopes to visit with Israeli and Palestinian leaders in the near future, the State Department is saying well, this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're not happy with the cycle of violence, you think it's bad clearly. But you think that the message to both sides needs to be the same. That's correct, right?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, in the sense of, I men, in our statement frankly said as much. You know, we condemn obviously, today, in the strongest possible terms the attack against Israeli civilians. It was the murder of three Israelis and left others injured. But we also mourn the loss of any loss of innocent life, Israeli or Palestinian.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My question was whether the message to both sides are the same. And, if it is, and you say that it is why is the message to both sides the same?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I regret that I haven't clear enough is that, you know, we're deeply concerned that there's escalating tensions on both sides, so we want to see both sides take affirm steps to decreases tensions.


KELLY: Joining me now, Brooke Goldstein. A human rights attorney of the law fair project, and Mark Hannah whose a partner with the Truman National Security Project and adjunct professor of Media Studies at the NYU School.

So, what's happening there, Brooke, is important. The attempts by the reporter was, are you drawing an equivalents between the Israelis and the Palestinians. And if the answer of that is, yes, which is how it sounded, that is significant, why?

BROOKE GOLDSTEIN, HUMAN RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Because could you imagination the situation where, let's say an Israeli leader, Netanyahu goes on television repeatedly and calls for all Israelis to pick up knives and stab Palestinian children to death?

Do you think the reaction of the Obama administration would be, well, all sides need to calm down and, you know, air will have to stop in citing Jews to violence? Absolutely not. But that is what is happening here.

A moral equivalent is being drawn. There is no out right condemnation of incitement to genocide. and let's not mince words. That is exactly what is happening. A bus is inciting genocide against the Jewish people. My people.

And my government, the American government, does not have the moral courage to stand up and say stop using American taxpayer dollars to fund school text books, to fund television programs, cartoons, music videos, teaching innocent Palestinian children, for example, to take their own lives as suicide bombers. Teaching and citing Palestinian people to engage in genocide.

KELLY: Go ahead, Mark.

MARK HANNAH, TRUMAN NATIONAL SECURITY PROJECT PARTNER: Brooke and I wil both agree that Israel has no strongest stauncher friend and ally than the United States. That's why we give Israel every year $3 billion, more than $3 billion in military aid alone.

They have the iron dam, one of the most...


KELLY: OK. Check on the military front. But what about her...

HANNAH: Missile defense. We both watch the same videos that people at home are watching. Those are horrific. They're heart wrenching. They're just hideous. To see what's happening to that Israeli people.

KELLY: So, why not call out the Palestinians on it. Why not call them up?

HANNAH: They are. They're telling both sides. The Obama administration...

KELLY: But that is the problem.

HANNAH: ... is trying to get both sides to de-escalate. To diffuse the situation. I don't see the problem with that. What do we want to happen, do we want Israel to retaliate and in disproportionate ways?


KELLY: Well, the problem is that, here's the problem.

HANNAH: If they want to drop bombs, my first instinct is to drop bombs on who's doing that. But those are 13-year-old kids.

KELLY: OK. But here's the problem. You tell me. Because Hamas is a terrorist organization. Our government, our government designates them, the terrorists. That's who's running Palestine.

And Israel is our closest ally. So, why is it so tough?


HANNAH: But those aren't Hamas.

GOLDSTEIN: Let me just say something. It's not about whether or not America is Israel's best friend. It's about the bigotry of low expectations. And every time we see Muslim violence as a reaction to it perceives offense to Islam.

HANNAH: Nobody's saying that.

GOLDSTEIN: Whether it is the reaction to YouTube film, the so-called anti-Islam YouTube film, the reaction to the Muhammad cartoons. The Obama administration blames the victims.

HANNAH: Nobody's blaming Palestine.

GOLDSTEIN: They never called out Imam inciting violence. They never call out the Palestinian authority or the radical Imams who are calling for death to all infidels. And by the way, that includes you, too, Mark. It's not just Jews, it's all infidel. It's bigotry with no expectations. And when carrying...


HANNAH: Sure. Everybody -- I think the Obama administration -- let me just say this. It's the crying and denouncing violent rhetoric wherever it exist. And that comes from Palestine mostly. And they've been on the record decrying and denouncing this. But, look...


KELLY: You don't think that they should be specific in their language. Because what we saw recently it was that the Palestinian leader came out to the U.N.

HANNAH: Right.

KELLY: And was very clear about the fact that they did not think they should have to abide by their prior obligation saying the Israelis have left us no choice. And there was a real question about whether there was going to be a push by the Palestinians to go after the Israelis. And now here we are.

HANNAH: Well, this isn't a coordinated thing. I mean, this is 13- year-old Palestinian kids who feel desperate.

GOLDSTEIN: Oh, clear.

HANNAH: I think that's an excuse what they're doing.

GOLDSTEIN: Desperate. Desperate.

HANNAH: Let me just finish first.

GOLDSTEIN: Stabbing innocent 2-year-old children. Shooting parents in front of their children? How many Jews have to die until we realize this isn't about...


HANNAH: They're dying on both sides. It's not maybe being equivalent.

GOLDSTEIN: It's not about frustration. It's about a blood lust, a lust for Jewish blood.

HANNAH: OK. More -- OK.

GOLDSTEIN: And it existed way before this day in Israel.

HANNAH: More Palestinians have died in the past 48 hours than Jews. So, that's not...


GOLDSTEIN: So, more Jews have to die?

HANNAH: No. This is exactly my point, is nobody has to die. The Obama administration -- Israel is like our little brother. When you see your little brother on a schoolyard fight, you don't necessarily come get his back and start beating up the little kid he's fighting with. You tell them both to chill out and take -- and you get in middle of it and...

GOLDSTEIN: But this isn't a schoolyard. This is real life. Real people are dying.

HANNAH: It's not metaphor.

GOLDSTEIN: We has a vast -- saying it is a national duty to murder Jews, every drop of blood spilled for Jerusalem for Allah is holy.


GOLDSTEIN: This is the man Obama called the peacemaker.


KELLY: OK. So, I got to go. I got to leave it there. I got to leave it there. That's a very good debate. Both of you. Great to see you.

HANNAH: OK. Thanks, Megyn.

Coming up, as the crime rate skyrockets in President Obama's hometown in Chicago, the city's mayor is pointing the finger at the cops? That debate after the break.


FRNKLIN ZIMRING, CENTER FOR STUDIES IN CRIMINAL JUSTICE DIRECTOR:  Well, there are only three problems with this. The first problem is crime isn't spiking. And indeed, there is no national pattern at all.



KELLY: Well, developing tonight as violent crime hit a new high last month in Chicago. The city's mayor, Rahm Emanuel is making some remarks that are getting attention about police. Suggesting the cops are hesitating to act in the wake of what we saw in Ferguson and in Baltimore.

The mayor is saying last week, quote, "We have allowed our police department to get fetal. And it is having a direct consequence. They have pulled back from the ability to interdict. They don't want to be a news story themselves, they don't want their career ended early, and it is having an impact."

Remember when police department across the country were being wildly being criticized last winter, we were told, don't worry, this won't happen.


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC ANCHOR: Have you seen these arguments, basically that go like this. Starting in Ferguson, we've seen these activists and protests against police misconduct. That has forced police to stop becoming proactive and now crime is spiking. What do you make of that argument?

ZIMRING: Well, there are only three problems with it. The first problem is crime isn't spiking and, indeed, there's no national pattern at all.

MARCO CLAXTON, FORMER NYPD DETECTIVE: And even the theory about this Ferguson effect and how police officers and documentation, a video documentation of police officers engaged in all types of behavior would have a direct impact and the police officers willingness to actually work is really offensive and it speaks poorly to the profession itself.


KELLY: Joining me now, former New York City Police Department detective and Fox News contributor, Bo Dietl, and political commentator Lisa Durgen.

Welcome to you both.


KELLY: So, I thought it wasn't going to happen, but even the Mayor of Chicago seems to be saying. In early he said he was blaming the cops. I don't know if that's fair to Mayor Emanuel. He was saying it's happening that the cops are, quote, "going fetal. Do you believe that, Bo?

BO DIETL, FORMER NYPD DETECTIVE: Well, you know, if you look at the whole circumstance, after Ferguson and what's happened, the other groups be informed, Black Lives Matter. Next thing is they say that rioting is like the Tea Party now. And we didn't see one person arrested in Ferguson or Baltimore. There you identify people who are looting, arson and everything. Cops now are saying something.

They don't want to arrest people committing crimes. And then what happened with Blake in New York. Look at the fact of the matter was he was pointed at, he was supposed to have at possibly night, he was put on the ground as handcuffs. The cop was taken off duty. His gun was taken away from him. His badge was taken away from him.

And now he's suspended. He's getting death threats to his house to his family. The cops can't keep being slapped around. Well, though, with that said, you got a lot of cops out there that still want to do their job.

But the point is, once they do their job the cell phones come out. If you go to toss somebody to try to get a gun off the street.


KELLY: Yes, somebody is going to be watching.

DIETL: The next thing is they're going to be videotaping to say you're illegally searching and the cop is going to get sued. They say, you know what, we're not going to get involved.

KELLY: All right. I got to get here -- I got two guests.


DURGEN: Thank you very much.

KELLY: Do you believe it's true that the cops are holding back?

DURGEN: I think they're holding back and that's the biggest racist statement of all times. To blame the Black Lives Matter movement for why you're not doing your freaking job, you robo cops, is disgusting.

That's the same thing as saying a woman whose husband beats her is her fault because she stood up for herself. These guys they're not the victims and to say that they can't do their job because they're afraid.

Let's think about a police's job. A police's job is to be in danger every day. You will not get shot in the head and not come home tonight. You can't take a little ripping; you can't take a cell phone, video tape of you doing your job?

DIETL: OK. I got a question.

DURGEN: Excuse me, if you don't want to get an evaluation...


DIETL: I've got a question. I've got a question. Here's my question. If you feel as though you can identify people who are burning people's buildings down in their business and robbing those stores, do you feel those looters should be arrested for that?

DURGEN: Absolutely.

DIETL: Well, they're not doing it. And then that's what the cops are getting frustrated out there. Because people are committing crimes and the cops are now the ones that getting blamed for it.

KELLY: The cops are worried about becoming the next Darren Wilson. Will they ruin their lives, but they're exonerated.

DURGEN: We're going to put a camera on you to make sure you do your job. I worked for major corporations for eight years of my life. And every year, I got evaluated at my job. And if I didn't do a good job, I got fired. So, your evaluator is the customer. Who's the customer? The public.

KELLY: All right.

DIETL: Sixty people were killed in Chicago in the month of September.

DURGEN: Well, yes. Follow me on this one. This year, there will be 5,000 African-American kids killed in their own cities. Where are my black leaders crying about one bad shooting with a cop? And they're ready to hang all the cops.

Why don't they come out and say illegal guns are killing the kids on our streets. Not NRA guns. These are illegal guns and Chicago, Washington, New York, all over this country. I want to get those guns off the street.

If I have to toss somebody, they'll be -- I'll toss them. I'll get the gun. You know what they'll say, I did the legal search officer. Here, you have to sign this card, New York. You got to sign this card because I searched you. Now I'm going to have a problem. I'm going to lose my job.

KELLY: Right.

DIETL: There is some sort of thought behind it.

KELLY: You -- I've got to go, but this is riveting.

DURGEN: Oh, lord. You're killing me!

KELLY: Quick last word.

DURGEN: You can't criminalize something because the criminals are watching you. So, you can't become the criminals to help stop the criminals. So, this is what the cops are doing.

DIETL: I locked up thousands of people out there. And I tossed them. And they got their illegal guns off!

KELLY: Yes. Great to see you both.

DURGEN: So, well, thank you. Oh, lord.

KELLY: Come so quickly.

DURGEN: Have a goodbye.

KELLY: Thank you both.

DIETL: Thank you.

KELLY: Well, did you notice last night's debate featured angry complaints about political spending? You're going to get a lot more of it in the next couple of months.

Up next, a preview of my cable news exclusive with a man the democrats love to hate the most. The so-called shadowy billionaire Charles Koch.



SANDERS: I go around the country, talk to a whole lot of people. Middle class of this country is collapsing. We have 27 million people living in poverty; we have massive wealth and income inequality.

Our trade policies have cost us millions of decent jobs. The American people want to know whether we're going to have a democracy or an oligarchy as a result of citizens united. Enough of the e-mails. Let's talk about the real issues facing America.



KELLY: Well, that was democratic presidential candidate Bernie Sanders last night attacking political spending in the U.S.

And after taking heat on this issue for years, the man and GOP donor whom the left loves to hate the most is breaking his silence and speaking out to The Kelly File in an exclusive interview we will have for you tomorrow night.

Joining me now with a bit of a preview, Fox News Media Buzz host, Howard Kurtz. And Charles Koch does not talk. He doesn't talk when he winds up on the president's enemies list, he doesn't talk when Harry Reid mentions him 289 times from the Senate floor, but finally he is speaking.

And let me tell you, Howie, the interview is fascinating. What do you make of his decision to come out now?

HOWARD KURTZ, HOST, "MEDIA BUZZ ": Well, I'm very eager to see this because liberals led by Harry Reid have spent years demonizing the Koch Brothers, which I never thought made sense because much of the country doesn't know who they are.

And journalists instinctively sort of distrust really rich people who give truckloads of money and don't give interviews. And so, this is the chance, I think, for the public to make up its own mind about who is this guy and what are his views and what are his motivations.

KELLY: Exactly right. So, he took a business that his father built that was worth $21 million, and he and his brother David turned it into a business that is worth $100 billion.

And for this, he has been excoriated because not only does he employ 60,000 Americans but he makes donations. He makes donations to candidates who he thinks stand for economic freedom. And I asked him about some of that. Here's a preview.


KELLY: Not long ago, President Obama himself came out and attacked you. It's not the first time. But he said that the Koch Brothers are trying to prevent new, clean energy businesses from succeeding. You came out and in a rare public statement said you were flabbergasted by that accusation. Why?

CHARLES KOCH, BILLIONAIRE INVESTOR: Because the opposite is true. All of our policies are based on whether it will make -- enable people to improve their lives or it will make their lives worse.

KELLY: On the comments made by President Obama, beneath the dignity of the office?


KELLY: It goes from there. Howie.

KURTZ: Well, it's interesting to actually see him and see that he has opinions and feelings because I think the Koch Brothers have made a mistake over the years by kind of hiding behind a curtain because that has led to - - it's made it easy for the democrats to paint them as dark and shadowy figures.

So, maybe this will be a chance for them to sort of, more fully participate in the public arena. I'll be very interested to see what you asked him.

KELLY: I'll tell you what, Charles Koch is the opposite of Bernie Sanders. I think they are -- you couldn't find two men who stand for two more different things. But you'll make up your own minds when you see this exclusive interview tomorrow night.

Don't forget to tune in, set your DVRs, 9 p.m., our exclusive with Charles Koch.


KELLY: Again, tomorrow night Charles Koch. We don't often tell you we're going to air something that could change your life. This could. It's not just the talk about politics; it's about changing your life, your business and your country. See you tomorrow at 9.

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