This is a rush transcript from "The Kelly File," October 9, 2015. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
SHANNON BREAM, GUEST HOST: Breaking tonight. As the fallout continues from a hard-hitting interview about the President's policy in the Middle East. There are new questions about whether this picture of America in retreat is the outcome the White House wanted all along.
Welcome to "The Kelly File," everybody. I'm Shannon Bream in for Megyn Kelly. In the 24 hours since CBS aired that interview between Steve Kroft and President Obama, it's become one of the top stories in the country. Kroft repeatedly making the case that in the 12 months since he last pressed Mr. Obama on the mess in the Middle East, the situation has gotten worse on almost every front. The exchanges got contentious and raised significant new questions about America's place in the world. Here's just a sample.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEVE KROFT, CBS "60 MINUTES" CORRESPONDENT: The last time we talked was this time last year. And the situation in Syria and Iraq have begun to worsen vis-a-vis ISIS.
PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: Right.
KROFT: You had just unveiled a plan to provide air support for troops in Iraq and also some air strikes in Syria, and the training and equipping of a moderate Syrian force. You said that this would degrade and eventually destroy ISIS.
KROFT: It's been a year and --
OBAMA: I didn't say it was going to be done in a year.
KROFT: But you said --
OBAMA: There's a question in here somewhere?
KROFT: There's a question in here.
KROFT: I mean, if you look at the situation and you're looking for process, it's not easy to find.
OBAMA: Syria has been a difficult problem for the entire world community, and obviously most importantly, for the people of Syria themselves.
KROFT: The situation with ISIS is, you've managed to achieve a stalemate.
But what's going to happen to ISIS? I mean, they have to be -- somebody has to take them on. I mean, what's going on right now is not working. I mean, they're still occupying big chunks of Iraq. They're still occupying a good chunk of Syria.
KROFT: Who's going to get rid of them?
OBAMA: Overtime, the community of nations will all get rid of them.
KROFT: You have been talking a lot about the moderate opposition in Syria.
This seems very hard to identify.
OBAMA: Steve, this is why I've been skeptical from the get-go about the notion that we were going to effectively create this proxy army inside of Syria.
KROFT: If you were skeptical of the program defined, identify, train and equip moderate Syrians, why did you go through the program?
OBAMA: Well, because part of what we have to do here, Steve, is to try different things.
KROFT: I know you don't want to talk about this.
OBAMA: No. I'm happy to talk about it.
KROFT: Someplace along the line made some sort of a serious miscalculation.
OBAMA: You know, Steve, let me just say this --
KROFT: It's an embarrassment.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BREAM: We have a powerful lineup tonight to analyze what's really going on here with presidential candidate Governor Chris Christie, FOX News digital politics editor Chris Stirewalt, and Pete Hegseth, the FOX News contributor and an Iraq and Afghanistan combat veteran and CEO of Concerned Veterans for America. We began with Chris and Pete. Chris, awkward!
CHRIS STIREWALT, FOX NEWS DIGITAL POLITICS EDITOR: Well, look, it made more awkward by the fact that the sort of number one Obama nuzler in the whole stable of Obama nuzlers at the beginning. Steve Kroft was one of the guys who framed the Obama mythos at the beginning back in 2007, the rise of this guy and he was one of Obama's favorite interviews. He would go back to him when there were things he needed to layout, that's why Kroft had this access.
And the fact that you get to the point where Steve Kroft with "60 Minutes"
says, holy croconaugh (ph) dude, you can't just say, I had a plan. I never really liked it. We did it anyway. What can you do? The community of nations, whatever that is. They're going to go for it. And then say, oh, yes. But I am leading because of I'm having a conference in Paris on global warming and you get to the point of utter incredulity even when people who were ones very admiring.
BREAM: Yes. Pete, on this issue of leadership, a lot of people expect the U.S. to step up when there is an existential threat, to a lot of people around the world including potentially us. But, you know, Chris referenced this community of nations. What is that all about?
PETE HEGSETH, CEO, CONCERNED VETERANS FOR AMERICA: Yes, this community of nations, I don't know, I'm looking for this community and where it's going to be to confront ISIS. The guns, the tanks, the things that's required. There is no community. It's a fallacy of the Left, it's a fallacy of Obama.
They want to believe that we engaged enough, that the other side will just capitulate. I mean, his solutions to Assad was to convince the Russians and convince the Iranians to persuade Assad to step down. They're in Syria to prop up the Assad regime because it is in their direct interest.
Vladimir Putin is calling for the President's long term bluff is getting his way because we have abdicated that leadership role. This president has stepped back, willingly believing it's not our fight to have anymore and others have stepped in to fill that. And as he said, when asked about what real leadership is, he said global climate change and engaging with Iran for the nuclear deal. That's leadership for this president and that's why you see the chaos in the world today.
BREAM: Well, Chris. What do you make of sort of what we get to the President almost analyzing himself, almost as an outside expectator looking at some of these decisions? Almost like he's not the one who made them.
STIREWALT: Right. Like whoever is doing this is not doing that great. I've seen better -- well, it's you, boss. You're the guy. And that has been his tendency all along. But I would also say this. Underneath that. Underneath these sort of vapor gusts which he rides, as he talks about himself. Underneath that is reality. This is what he wants. This is by his design that the United States should not be playing a more advanced role there. That what we saw in Libya was, that's what he want -- I'm sure no one wanted the outcome that we've had in Libya, but he doesn't want the United States to be playing the lead dog role and that's how he wanted.
The problem that it creates though is for his party. Hillary Clinton has got to go to a debate with people who agree with the President. People like Bernie Sanders who wholeheartedly agree with the President. That a Paris climate change summit is more important than who is bombing Syria right now, because that will just have to take care of itself in time. This puts pressure on Hillary Clinton who is more hawkish than Obama who doesn't align on his party on this. But his party absolutely agrees with him.
BREAM: All right. Pete, quickly, on this issue of building a coalition and the U.S. not kind of stepping up and being at the front of every single conflict around the world. You know, President George H.W. Bush was lauded and is still remembered for being so great at that, in putting together a coalition where the U.S. wasn't shouldering the entire burden. It was more about an international effort to go after some of these threats.
HEGSETH: That's right. Because he understood real leadership. See, the President -- President Obama puts up the strawman of the only solution is 200,000 or 300,000 American troops. He said, it repeatedly in the interview. When in reality the right amount of troops or the right amount of commitment and real hard diplomacy, not just smart power but hard power and smart power combined, could bring about a coalition that could willfully defeat ISIS and others and have a real clear view of what intentions are, the Iranians and Russians. He's choosing not to play. And when you don't lead the others sides who needs that leadership won't commit. H.W. Bush understood that and led, and this president just doesn't believe in the geopolitical shift and so isn't playing that game, and Putin is playing him as a fiddle as a result.
BREAM: All right. Pete, thank you always for your service and to you and Chris both of you being here tonight. Thank you, gentlemen.
HEGSETH: Thank you.
STIREWALT: You bet.
BREAM: All right. So you heard Steve Kroft pressing the President on the mess in the Middle East and what Kroft called some of the embarrassing missteps. But as Chris just mentioned, the moment that got the most attention came when President Obama offered his take on real leadership.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: If you think that running your economy into the ground and having to send troops in, in order to prop up your only ally is leadership, then we've got a different definition of leadership. My definition of leadership would be leading on climate change, an international accord that potentially we'll get in Paris.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BREAM: Joining me now, Republican presidential candidate and governor of New Jersey, Chris Christie. You're tackling already --
GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE, R-N.J., PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Yes.
BREAM: So, I'll just go ahead in much you react.
CHRISTIE: Well, I mean, listen, you know, the fact that the president has seen over quarter of million innocent people in Syria murdered, that millions are literally running for their lives, to Europe and other nations in the Middle East. And he thinks that the way leadership should be shown right now is on climate change? He's so woefully out of touch with the American people and what they're concerned about. It is startling. And it's part of his own, you know, incredibly liberal agenda, that he doesn't even care anymore that he promised to protect those people in Syria. He promised them.
BREAM: He did draw a red line there.
CHRISTIE: He did.
BREAM: And critics on both sides of the aisle have said, he didn't deliver on that. Do you think that left a vacuum, as we've seen many vacuums across the Middle East that when there's an open space trouble inserts itself?
CHRISTIE: You're right, Shannon. But he did even worse than that. Okay? Not only did he leave a vacuum, but then he invited Putin in. Remember at the time when he refused to enforce the red line, he asked Putin, can you help us broker a deal here with Assad to turnover his chemical weapons. So Putin came in at the President's invitation. And so, everything that's happening there, the bombing and everything else that Russia is now involved in, the President invited. He thinks that Putin is being weak. Putin is being aggressive and he is being ugly and he is being a thug, but he's not being weak. The weakling is in the Oval Office.
BREAM: You have said you would, as President Chris Christie, have a no-fly zone and tell Putin, if you violate it, we're coming after you. What exactly do you mean?
CHRISTIE: Exactly that, Shannon. My conversation --
BREAM: Would you shoot down Russian planes?
CHRISTIE: If need be, yes. Now, I don't think he would come into the no-fly zone once we set it up. Listen, this is a guy who is punching above weight.
Okay. His economy is bad, his military is in decline. But because he has the weakling in the Oval Office, he can push him all over the place. My conversation would quite President Putin would be very clear and very direct, we're setting up a new fly zone to protect the people that you say you're not interested in bombing anyway because you say, you're there to fight ISIS. We know he's not. But let's call his bluff. Let's set-up the no fly zone and protect the Syrian rebels. And if he violates it, I would tell him very candidly, don't test me.
BREAM: Okay. Let's talk about some other things in domestic issues. The House GOP right now trying to figure out who is going to run, who will be their new speaker. You basically said the average American people don't care about that.
CHRISTIE: Who care?
BREAM: But a lot of these people, part of the problem is a lot of these people sent folks to Washington to challenge the establishment, to challenge the status quo. Those folks are now being blamed for gumming up the works and for preventing the easy collection of a speaker. But their constituents back home in many cases are saying, this is fine with us.
We're okay with you playing hardball. We expect you get something done the half isn't getting things done. And so the American people do many of them are invested in who become the speaker.
CHRISTIE: I don't think they're invested on who become speaker. I think they're invested into getting conservative Republican items passed through Congress and on the President's desk. So he either signs them or he's on record vetoing them. And I'm not just blaming the 40 people the freedom caucus to everyone's fault down there. It's everyone's fault that they may be able to bring people together and to force compromise. I do it every day in New Jersey with a Democratic legislature. There's no reason they can't do this.
BREAM: Because all the things that you just touched on, you talked about in a campaign trail, you've invested a lot of time in New Hampshire. We talked earlier this summer up there. You're doing a ton of town halls. But the latest polling shows that you're in eighth place when it comes to Republican primary voters. Three percent of the vote. And over the weekend, "The Washington Post" writing an article this wasn't where you expected to be. So, how do you change that number in time for Iowa and New Hampshire?
CHRISTIE: Well, first of, that's a national number and who really cares about the national polls at this point? We're in fourth place in New Hampshire and we're moving up in Iowa. And so, you know, if the election were tomorrow, I would be really concerned. The election is not until February, the first people don't vote it until after the whole NFL season is done. All the playoffs and the Super Bowl. So, I'm not really worried too much yet. Come to me during the NFL playoffs and if I'm still down there, then we'll have some things to worry about but I don't think quite yet.
BREAM: -- polling the football. This isn't a thing about ball I think.
CHRISTIE: Well, listen, unless you're a New York Nets fans, then you'll really love the playoffs, since we only go every once in nine years.
BREAM: As a Nets fan, I'll just leave that right word. All right.
CHRISTIE: I understand. Thank you for your -- thank you, Shannon.
BREAM: Thanks Nets. Governor, great to see you.
CHRISTIE: Great to see you, Shannon.
BREAM: Thank you for coming in.
We also have breaking news tonight on Bowe Bergdahl. The more than half dozen men who died searching for him, and how the army has now decided to handle his case of the accused deserter. Presidential candidate Governor Mike Huckabee is here on the administration's role in that.
And Lieutenant Colonel Tony Shaffer here with the prediction on what happens next.
Plus, as two outside experts say police followed the rules in the shooting of a Cleveland teenager. Sheriff David Clark will join us. That as Hillary Clinton jumps in on this case, and racism in America.
And later, the car company that's now fighting back against the PC parents.
Wait until you see it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let me see that. Participation trophy? But we won every game. Why do we get the same trophy as all those teams we beat?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BREAM: Breaking tonight. New fallout in the case of Sergeant Bowe Bergdahl, accused of deserting his post in 2009. Touching off a search that critics say led to the deaths of at least half a dozen men. We got reports this weekend Bergdahl will face court-martial on Syria's charges of desertion and more but he may avoid any jail-time and a lesser court-martial.
Well, to weigh in tonight, presidential candidate, Governor Mike Huckabee and former CIA Intelligence Operative and senior fellow at the London Center for Policy Research, Lieutenant Colonel Tony Shaffer. We begin with Colonel Shaffer.
All right. You have been one step ahead on this case the entire time. Are you surprised at all by the recommendation and what do you think comes next?
LT. COL. TONY SHAFFER, FORMER CIA INTELLIGENCE OPERATIVE: No, I think Mr. Fidel, the attorney made a very compelling case. He tugged at everybody's heart strings, presented a completely false narrative that somehow Bowe Bergdahl was actually a good guy. He actually deserted his post not to join the Taliban or take drugs which is been reported I believe accurately. But to report wrongdoing of his fellow service members there at the front. And look, let me be clear on this, there was an investigation after Bergdahl left, there was no evidence of any wrongdoing.
So, I believe Shannon that one of the things we should be looking at is the fact that the whole defense is a lie. Therefore, I think that should be a mitigating circumstance against him to make it even worst. But unfortunately right now the recommendation is for what we call a special court-martial --
BREAM: Which is lesser.
SHAFFER: Which is lesser. A general court-martial would be the highest. That could result in life sentences, the very harsh punishment. With a special court-martial, the max he could probably get is up to a year in jail, which in my judgment is way too low for what the crime clearly was.
BREAM: Okay. What do you make of the testimony that we've heard from the army investigator, Major General Kenneth Dahl who says despite what many people have said, he says no troops actually died looking for Bergdahl.
SHAFFER: That's false. I don't know what the General Dahl was thinking. By our estimate there were seven U.S. soldiers, three British soldiers all killed incidental to looking for Bergdahl. Now, this is the problem. You cannot actually link each to Bergdahl saying, the cause of link is just going to be, or you can't legally make the case, with that said, these soldiers were asked to divert from other missions to go and do a detailed search of a very hostile area. The Taliban were actually looking for the guys to come look for them. Therefore, they were ambushed a number of times. So therefore, I think it's very difficult to basically charge each incident. But there's no doubt, no doubt that these individuals, these ten individuals died in the process of trying to find Bergdahl after he deserted his post.
BREAM: Well, my understanding is now that General Adams still has a say in this. There's a chance anyway that he may differ with the recommendation. Colonel, thank you for your service, thanks for joining us tonight.
SHAFFER: Thank you.
BREAM: Here now, presidential candidate Governor Mike Huckabee. All right.
Governor, your reaction to how this is now unfolding?
MIKE HUCKABEE, R-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Bergdahl was a traitor. He was a deserter. And under the rules of the United States military, if you desert in the course of combat, you could face each up to the death sentence, which probably would have been handed to him in World War II. Here's another problem. We gave away five of the top Taliban leaders for this one guy who is a deserter. And by the way, the President of the United States broke the law when he did that, because the law requires 30 days' notice to the members of Congress. He gave only a few days to Senator Dianne Feinstein. So there's a lot here, and I don't think this story ought to be over just because Bergdahl gets a slap on the wrist and maybe discharged.
He should be dishonorably discharged. This should come to full circle and I think some higher ups in the military have a lot to answer for. It's apparent that they're politicizing this and they don't want to offend the White House. That ought to be troubling to everybody.
BREAM: Well, we will wait to see what the next step is here, and if this General who can now makes a different decision decides to follow these recommendations or not. No surprise that you're critical of the President making a deal with the Taliban. You don't like the Iran nuke deal that he made either. I mean, you're questioning his leadership overall. Your reaction to a bit of a struggle for him in explaining some of his decisions in that interview last night.
HUCKABEE: Well, it was a disastrous interview on the part of the president. He proved last night a point that I often make, that the most dangerous person in the room is the person who doesn't know what he doesn't know. And the problem with President Obama, he is completely confident of his ability, and as I used to say of someone who I will leave unnamed, he's often wrong but never in doubt. And this is a president who is often wrong.
Shannon, he's never in doubt. He's convinced that he is the smartest guy in the room, and he doesn't know what he doesn't know. That's why we ended up with a terrible deal with Iran, a deadly one, let me say. A terrible deal for Bergdahl. A miscalculation in every part of the Middle East, whether it was Yemen, Egypt, Libya, Syria, wherever there could be a decision to be made. It's almost as if you can guarantee he would not read it right and the result would be disaster.
BREAM: All right. Governor, you want to replace him. The latest polling, these are national Republican primary voters. Two percent, you're tied for ninth place. How do you turn that around and are you going to watch the Democratic debate tomorrow night?
HUCKABEE: I'm going to be driving across the state of Iowa tomorrow during the debate.
HUCKABEE: I'll be listening to it. Hopefully I'll be able to at least listen to it.
BREAM: All right. So your time there in Iowa is that, you know, where do you get traction? You've done there well obviously in the past. It's a different ballgame this time around. But how do you turn two percent into a win?
HUCKABEE: Well, you know, I look at these polls and sometimes I just don't buy into it. But first of all, if we want to go on national polls, let's go ahead and celebrate the election of Rudy Giuliani in 2008 and Herman Cain in 2012. Because at this point, both of them were leading in national polls. And so if anybody believes that those polls really are an accurate predictor of who's going to be president, you know, then boy, history has been wrong repeatedly. We work hard. We work in the early states because you can be an unbeaten Kentuckian in regular season, but in March madness if you don't win the early games, you will not going to be in the final four. And the presidential sweepstakes is just like that. You have to win early stages. That's what we're doing.
BREAM: Hearts get broken in March madness every year. All right. Governor, great to see you.
HUCKABEE: Thank you.
BREAM: Thanks for joining us tonight.
HUCKABEE: Thanks, Shannon.
BREAM: All right. Also tonight. Iranian media is reporting that a "Washington Post" reporter held in Iran for more than a year has now been convicted of charges of espionage.
Our own James Rosen is on that story. He has that story next, and how this plays into the President's deal with Iran.
And later, you're going to meet the university professor who just quit his job, because the school is going to allow concealed carry guns on campus.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just want them to take the risk of teaching a very large class where students do get disgruntled because of the grading and how they perceived they should be doing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BREAM: Breaking tonight. Iranian media is just now reporting that Washington Post reporter, the one who has been held in jail for more than a year, has been convicted of espionage. The closed door trial ended in August, but the ruling has just come down and it raises new questions about the President's deal with Iran, and the Americans, plural, being held by the Iranian regime.
With more on this, Chief Washington Correspondent James Rosen. Hey, James.
JAMES ROSEN, FOX NEWS CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Shannon, good evening. This past weekend, the length of Jason Rezaian's incarceration in Iran extended beyond the 444 day mark. Meaning he has now been there longer than the Americans who were taken hostage in 1979. It was four-and-a-half months before Rezaian was even charged with crimes, ranging from espionage to collaborating with hostile governments and propaganda against the establishment. His range claims to make against the Washington Post's Tehran bureau chief, who's married to an Iranian citizen. Herself a reporter. News of the guilty verdict emerged in bits and pieces from state run media outlets and no sentence has yet been announced.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DOUGLAS JEHL, THE WASHINGTON POST FOREIGN EDITOR: Outrageous, and it's also incomprehensible as we try to watch what's happening here. Even to Jason's mother, his wife and his lawyer, who went to the court in Tehran today to try to seek clarity on what's happened, it remains -- they were turned away, told that there wasn't a translator available. And no information could be provided at them. This is simply cruel and appalling.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROSEN: Rezaian is one of four Americans believed to be detained in Iran, but Secretary of State John Kerry has long defended the wisdom of not linking this cases to the nuclear deal that he and five other world powers finalize with Iran this summer. He argues that nuclear diplomacy was complex enough. Secretary Kerry recently told our Greta Van Susteren that he is, quote, "fixated on these cases."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN KERRY, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: It's my hope that over the course of the next few days, weeks, but as short as possible, I hope our citizens will come home. And we're continuing to focus on it.
GRETA VAN SUSTEREN, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: Are you -- are you saying -- I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but are you saying that swaps is a possibility or, I mean, it's on the table?
KERRY: I'm not saying anything about any modality with respect to might -- what might or might not happen. What I am saying is we are focused on getting our citizens home and we're going to continue that conversation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROSEN: Family members say Rezaian has been deprived of medication for high blood pressure and that his physical condition has deteriorated dramatically during his stay in Evin Prison which is notorious for housing political prisoners in harsh conditions -- Shannon.
BREAM: All right. James, thank you very much for the update tonight.
ROSEN: You bet.
BREAM: Also tonight, a pointed new TV commercial is getting lots of attention for taking on the PC mindset. We'll going to show it to you.
Plus, as two outside experts clear the police officer involved in the shooting of 12-year-old Tamir Rice, Sheriff David Clark and Mark Hannah on what it means for the case and how Hillary Clinton has now decided to weigh in very publicly.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SUBODH CHANDRA, RICE FAMILY ATTORNEY: Those so-called expert reports don't even contain half of the facts. That would be important for a jury to determine whether the officers are responsible
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BREAM: Breaking developments in a controversial police shooting that's been at the center of the Black Lives Matter movement for months. Not one, but two outside experts have now seemed to clear the officer who fatally shot a 12-year-old in Cleveland, saying he was justified in his actions.
And despite that development, Democratic front-runner Hillary Clinton is now weighing in on the case, and not on the side of police. We've got Sheriff David Clark and Democratic strategist Mark Hanna in just a minute.
But, first, Trace Gallagher with the investigation into the Rice shooting.
TRACE GALLAGHER, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Cheryl, the initial call the police dispatch came in as someone pointing, quote, "A probably a fake gun," but the fake part was never relayed to the responding officers who pulled their squad car within a few feet of 12-year-old Tamir Rice.
Officer Timothy Loehmann, who was in training at the time riding in the passenger side, claims he saw Rice reach for a gun in his waist band, then shot and wounded the boy who died later.
Tamir Rice was carrying an airsoft pellet gun, and now two separate reports by two outside investigators say the shooting was reasonable. Lamar Sims, a Colorado prosecutor and use of force expert issued a 52-page report concluding, quoting here, "Officer Loehmannn believed that Rice posed a threat of serious physical harm or death, was objectively reasonable as was his response to the perceived threat."
Retired FBI agent Kimberly Crawford's report was eight pages, where she says, quoting again, "It is my conclusion that Officer Loehmann's use of deadly force falls within the realm of reasonableness under the dictates of the Fourth Amendment."
The prosecutor is still vowing to take this to a grand jury but the Rice family says, instead of letting the evidence speak for itself, the prosecutor poisoned the well. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SUBODH CHANDRA, RICE FAMILY ATTORNEY: The Rice family feels now that the grand jury process has been tainted by the prosecutor's conduct, and as a result, they will not receive justice from the criminal justice process under this prosecutor. It's just not going to happen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GALLAGHER: The Ohio Highway Patrol also released a report, but it does not offer an opinion, only logistics. Shannon.
BREAM: All right. Trace, thank you very much for bringing us up to date. All right. Despite these reports, Democratic presidential front-runner Hillary Clinton is being an expert on this. Now today sending out a message of support to Tamir Rice's loved ones saying, "Too many black families are mourning the loss of a child."
Last week, Clinton met with some Black Lives Matter activists. On Friday, she sent out a message saying this, quote, "Racism is America's original sin."
And our good friend, Mr. Greg Gutfeld over "Red Eye" is now suggesting the positions like Mrs. Clinton are only making things worse.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GREG GUTFELD, CO-HOST, "THE FIVE": What would I ask Hillary at Tuesday's debate tomorrow? First, if racism is truly America's original sin, as you just tweeted, why are so many black and brown people risking their lives to come here? Can you explain how, even at our worst, we're still the best?
And do you ever worry that pandering to fractions only divides an already fractured country?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BREAM: All right. Sheriff David Clark of the Milwaukee Sheriff's Office, and Mark Hannah, partner at the Truman National Security Project. Welcome to you both, gentlemen.
MARK HANNAH, TRUMAN NATIONAL SECURITY PROJECT PATNER: Thank you, Shannon.
BREAM: All right. Sheriff, we have two now outside investigations, one by a former FBI agent, I believe another by a prosecutor saying that the officer, you know, lamenting the death of a 12-year-old, but saying the officers acted in a reasonable manner. You got to make split seconds decisions but there are still those who are casting doubt on the case.
DAVID CLARK, MILWAUKEE COUNTY SHERIFF: Well, first of all, Mrs. Bill Clinton is showing that she is willing to prostitute herself to secure the black vote. Look, she knows that's her ace in the hole when it comes to Bernie Sanders especially when it gets to the primaries in the southern state. She knows better than that.
That sort of pandering is unbecoming of somebody who wants to become the next President of the United States. She's well-aware as an attorney of the objective reasonableness standard and grand free counter, that officers have to make split second decisions on how force and when to use force. You can't use 20-20 hindsight.
She knows that, that it's the reasonable officer standard. Once you strip away the emotion, the hyperbole and the rhetoric involved in this tragic case, all that's left to the facts and circumstances. And it's the rule of law standard that has to prevail.
BREAM: Mark, those are some tough words and the sheriff is not alone in thinking that Mrs. Clinton is politicizing this to her political benefit.
What do you say?
HANNAH: Right. If she's pandering to factions as Greg Gutfeld said is, you know, giving voice to a lot of frustrations in the black community, let's look at what she actually tweeted, that too many black families are experiencing these tragedies.
I don't think that Sheriff Clark would disagree with that. I don't think he would disagree with the fact that there is still some residual racism...
CLARK: I would disagree wholeheartedly. Don't put words in my mouth. There is no data...
HANNAH: Sheriff Clark, I'm sure you've experienced racism in your life.
CLARK: There is no data or research to suggest that. Show me the data that says...
HANNAH: Have you...
CLARK: ... that law enforcement officers are using an inordinate amount of force against young black males in the United States.
HANNAH: OK. Let me ask you. Do you think that it's reasonable -- do you think it's reasonable that police officers shot and killed within two seconds of getting out of their squad car, an officer -- actually a trainee, shot and killed a 12-year-old boy, and do you think he would have done it if that boy was white?
CLARK: well, first of all, let's get rid of the...
HANNAH: Just yes or no.
CLARK: But let me go by the reasonable officer standard. Yes, I do believe they acted very reasonably...
HANNAH: Do you think that's OK in America?
CLARK: These decisions are made in split seconds as when to use force and how much to use.
HANNAH: Right. You know...
CLARK: Twenty-twenty hindsight which used from...
HANNAH: ... you know, Ohio is an open carry...
CLARK: It's not the standard.
HANNAH: You know, it's legal to carry a gun.
CLARK: O'Connor has made a very clear that the reasonable officers standard is what these actions are judged by.
BREAM: Well, and gentlemen, let me interrupt here. A couple of things -- a couple of things -- yes. A couple of things that are important here is that we are told that the orange tip that is on toy guns, on fake guns...
BREAM: ... was removed in this case. So, officers would not have been able to see that. They were told that somebody was pulling a gun in and out of their clothing.
HANNAH: And that's combat live.
BREAM: They arrived on the scene without a lot of the facts that we know now, Mark.
HANNAH: Right. And, Shannon, I mean, it is true there was a toy gun involved, it looks realistic but it's an open carry law.
CLARK: It's 20-20 hindsight.
HANNAH: No. Let me just finish my...
CLARK: Those officers did not know that at the time. I believe she has reasonable for them to assume that.
BREAM: Mark, let me ask you.
BREAM: Because I want to talk with you specifically about the political angle here.
BREAM: As the Sheriff rightly pointed out, Mrs. Clinton is a brilliant person. She is a well-trained well-experienced lawyer. I mean, is it fair to say that she is leveraging something, that she knows will incite a certain reaction from people in order to engender support while ignoring some of the important legal and factual information in this case, Mark?
HANNAH: I think we should all ignore certain legal information in this case, because it's not just a legal matter, it's an ethical matter. It's a moral obligation we have.
Sheriff Clark, you said on your Facebook page that Tamir Rice was armed with a realistic looking replica. You seem to suggest that somehow this 12- year-old boy was at least partly responsible for his own killing.
I think that's extraordinarily distasteful. I don't think the officer necessarily intentionally killed somebody. I think this might have been a horrific accident.
BREAM: All right.
HANNAH: But I don't think this horrific accident should keep...
BREAM: All right. We got to go, five seconds for me, Sheriff Clark. I got to go.
CLARK: First of all, sir, I don't have a Facebook page, so I don't know where you're getting that from. But again, it says, once you strip away the emotion, which you're coming from, the rhetoric and the hyperbole, the facts and circumstances remain.
BREAM: All right, gentlemen.
CLARK: And there's the reasonable officer standard and there's no doubt in my mind that these officers will be cleared of criminal wrongdoing. This is a tragic situation, no doubt.
BREAM: All right. We got to go but there is still the matter of a grand jury that will have to decide whether there will be criminal charges here.
So, this case is not over yet. Sheriff Clark, Mark Hannah, professor, thank you both for joining us.
HANNAH: Thank you, Shannon.
BREAM: Up next, the new gun law allowing students to carry concealed firearms on college campuses in Texas has touched off a big controversy at one school.
We're going to talk to a professor who says he's leaving his job because of this. And, the reaction from Mark Fuhrman.
Then, the car company that's fighting back against the PC parents. Wait till you see it.
BREAM: Developing tonight, 11 days after a shooting at a college campus in Oregon, a professor at the University of Texas in Austin is making news.
With the announcement that he's quitting his job at the school because of a new law that will soon allow concealed carry in Texas higher ed classrooms.
Economics professor Daniel Hamermesh wrote the school's president saying, quote, "My perception is that the risk that a disgruntled might bring a gun into the classroom and start shooting at me has been substantially enhanced by the concealed-carry law. Out of self-protection, I have chosen to spend part of next Fall at the University of Sydney, where, among things, this risk seems lower."
Joining me now professor of emeritus of economics, Daniel Hamermesh.
Professor, thanks for joining us.
DANIEL HAMERMESH, PROFESSOR OF EMERITUS OF ECONOMICS: Thanks for having me.
BREAM: I know you've been into school for more than two decades. Was this a tough decision for you?
HAMERMESH: It wasn't for some reasons. Namely, I'm 72, I have a large pension, I have a number of outside opportunities. What this law did they sort of push me over the edge of saying it's time to get out of here.
BREAM: OK. So, what specifically is your fear? Because you know those on the other side will argue if more people are armed on campus, that maybe they could be somebody would stop a potential perpetrator.
HAMERMESH: The issue is not so much somebody coming into the classroom from the outside, it's rather a student in the classroom or more likely a student in my office who is upset about a grade and pulls a gun on me.
I'm not going to carry a gun. I don't want to be involved in a gun fight.
And the thing is, I teach classes of 500 students. So even though at any one student of really not likely to do much with that many, sort of enhance risk and I don't want to bear that risk.
BREAM: If someone is disgruntled or disturbed enough to show up at a college campus with a gun, with a potential plan of harming you or another professor, how does this new law make that any different? I mean, it would make them legal for them to carry a concealed gun.
But if somebody is disturbed enough that they want to carry out a crime, or mass killing, or even just target one person, target you, how does this law really make it any more permissible for them to do that?
HAMERMESH: I'm not so much worried about the person who has planned ahead of time to come to campus or my office. I'm worried about a student who comes in to complain about a grade, and I give a fair number of number to class that large, who is carrying a concealed handgun, gets angry and then bear suddenly snaps, pulls out the gun and shoots me. And it's not just me, it's any professor who keeps a large number of students faces the same increased risk, that's where the risk is.
BREAM: OK. So, you are worried that somebody who is legally licensed to carry, who otherwise, is a law-abiding citizen who gets upset over a grade may escalate into then shooting you?
HAMERMESH: Absolutely. I've had students get very angry in class. I've had other professors' mention to me in the last few days, things that disgruntled students too.
Remember, these people, under age 25, guys' brains are not fully formed.
They tend to occasionally go just berserk. And this increases the risk to all faculty of that going to berserk resulting in something fatal.
BREAM: OK. So, the school does say there's a statement that they are going to continue getting input from faculty and from others as they work out exactly how this is going to work on campus. They've acknowledged your letter and your worries, potential concerns about this. And certainly wish you best -- the best in your teaching endeavors elsewhere. Professor, we thank you for your time.
HAMERMESH: Thanks for having me.
BREAM: All right. For more on the topic, we go to former LAPD detective and Fox News contributor Mark Fuhrman. OK. That's his choice. But what do you make of the reasoning behind it?
MARK FUHRMAN, FORMER LAPD DETECTIVE: Well, Shannon, it seems more of a protest than it does a logical response to a safety issue. Certainly, the safety issue is actually diminished, not enhanced.
And to think this professor would think that a 25-year-old man or student, his brain isn't fully developed and he would snap and shoot somebody over a bad grade would kind of make me think the professor needs to get off campus and get out into the real world a little bit. Rational people just don't do that over a bad grade.
BREAM: OK. So, how do you respond to those who are worried about this law, and saying it's going to mean there are more guns on campus. If there are misunderstandings if there are accidents, and they question whether somebody who is actually trained and concealed carry license wouldn't be able to stop the shooter. I mean, they think it's going to create more harm than good. Clearly, the professor in that camp.
FUHRMAN: Well, let's take the first, that there's going to be a lot of guns. Well, there's probably already concealed carry guns that are on campus, even though it's not allowed, but people still do it.
It's a public campus and certainly, there's probably already guns there. To think that everybody is going to run out and get a concealed weapon because they can take it to class is absurd.
So, you're going to have a small fraction of people that are trained, legal, law abiding citizens that have made the effort to become license.
And I'd like to note none of the mass shootings in recent memory have had anybody that's a shooter with a Concealed Weapons Permit.
So, that being said there is an issue tactically that if there is a shooting on campus, the police responding do have a difficult time telling the suspect from a good guy if you have more than one weapon on campus or somebody is responding to a suspect. That does present a tactical issue for the police because the good guy thinks he's the good guy.
BREAM: Right. Well, this debate is far from over in this country and beyond. All right. Mark Fuhrman, thank you so much.
Up next, the car company that's fighting back against the PC parents. What do you see?
BREAM: Lots of buzz today over a brand-new ad by south car company, Kia, that seems to take on the mind-set of America's PC parents. And that message goes after trophies were just showing up. Trace Gallagher who will get a trophy in any for his achievement is now live in our West Coast newsroom. Hey, Trace.
GALLAGHER: Hey, Shannon, as far as Kia's new SUV ad campaign that challenges the everyone gets a trophy culture, the first ad features that a dad telling his not so talented football player son that he had an awesome game, while the mom is thinking to herself that her son's actually not very good. Here's the second ad about participation trophies. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let me see that. Participation trophy. But we won every game. Why do we get the same trophy as all those teams we beat? Are we going to start ending games with hugs instead of handshakes? No. No, no, no. No, no, no, no. There you go, champ.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thanks.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GALLAGHER: Well, the ads certainly a big hit on social media. And they come on the heels of Pittsburg Steeler live back on James Harris and posting on social media that he give back participation trophies awarded to his son saying, I'm quoting here, "I'm not about to raise two boys to be men by making them believe that they are entitled to something just because they tried their best. Because sometimes your best is not enough and that should drive you to want to do better not to cry and whine until somebody gives you something to shut you up and keep you happy." Shannon.
BREAM: Yikes. I already have a lot people tweeting that they're going to buy a Kia because they love the ad so much. So, listen, the company definitely hit a nerve. Thank you, Trace.
GALLAGHER: All right.
BREAM: The Kia car company isn't the only one questioning why folks are boarded for showing up. More on that, is next.
BREAM: All right. As we mentioned a moment ago, not just Kia questioning the participation trophy in America.
Later this week, get this, Megyn Kelly has a cable news exclusive with Charles Koch. Yes, that Charles Koch, the guy that the left loves to hate more than just about anyone else. Wait until you hear what he has to say about raising our kids to state in this country, and why he's decided finally to go on TV with Megyn to defend himself.
You don't want to miss it, stick around. That's later this week. Go to facebook.com/kellyfile.
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