Servers seized, new players uncovered in Clinton scandal; Trump plotting his second act?

Former D.O.J. Assistant Deputy Attorney General discusses legal implications for Hillary Clinton on 'The Kelly File'


This is a rush transcript from "The Kelly File," October 7, 2015. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

MEGYN KELLY, HOST: Breaking tonight, FBI and Congressional investigators have seized several computers from the State Department as the probe into Hillary Clinton's e-mail scandal gets bigger.  And potentially more damaging for the candidates.

Welcome to "The Kelly File," everyone. I'm Megyn Kelly. There is a whole new series of developments unfolding tonight in the email scandal that had dogged Hillary Clinton since last March. First, a Connecticut technology firm is confirming that it kept a previously unknown back-up copy of Hillary Clinton's private communications. It says, it turned all of this over to the FBI increasing the chances of recovering information that Mrs. Clinton says she deleted. Information her critics says, she was trying to hide.

Plus, the FBI also seizing four State Department computers today.  Imagine that, going into the State Department and seizing them.  Physically. Deepen its investigation into how top secret classified information wound up on Mrs. Clinton's private system.

And, here, tonight, former DOJ Assistant Deputy Attorney General Shannen Coffin with the fallout. But we begin with Trace Gallagher on the new developments. Trace.

TRACE GALLAGHER, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Megyn, just like when you and I don't have enough storage on our phone, we back it up on a cloud.  While Platte River Networks, the Colorado Company that managed Hillary Clinton's private server hired a Connecticut company called data incorporated to essentially be their cloud. But Hillary Clinton's e-mails were never supposed to be backed up on anything but on onsite server.  Instead, they made it on Datos off-site cloud and now the company could have Clinton's e-mails, including the ones she deleted, dating back to at least June of 2013.

The FBI has told them to preserve all data. And according to e- mails obtained by republican Senator Ron Johnson, chair of the Homeland Security Committee when the FBI began investigating this matter, members of Clinton's team directed Platte River to, quote, "Cut the back-up of e- mails." In other words, wipe clean any e-mail older than 30 days. In August, an unnamed Platte River employee wrote to a co-worker, quoting, "Starting to think this whole thing is covering up some shady blank."  Going onto say, quote, "I think if we have it in writing that they told us to cut the back-ups in that we can go public with our statement saying we have back-ups since day one, then we were told to trim to 30 days. It would make us look a whole lot better." Whole lot being in capital letters.

Here's Senator Johnson. Listen.


SEN. RON JOHNSON, R-WIS.: This just shows how sloppy and, again, that just reckless disregard for national security interests. The dereliction of duty Secretary Clinton is being revealed here.


GALLAGHER: The Clinton campaign responds saying, quote, Ron Johnson is ripping a page from the House Benghazi committee's playbook and mounting his own taxpayer funded sham of an investigation with the sole purpose of attacking Hillary Clinton politically. The Clinton camp has agreed to turnover any recovered emails. The FBI is also investigating if there were any attempted cyber-attacks on emails that were backed up on Datos Cloud -- Megyn.

KELLY: And we have breaking news on that coming in right now. Trace, thank you.

Joining us now with more, Shannen Coffin, former D.O.J. assistant deputy attorney general and former counsel to Vice President Cheney. And just as Trace was delivering that report, Shannen, the Washington Post breaking the news that one of these tech firms, the subcontractor, that had raised concerns about this being shady, had also raised concerns that these emails will vulnerable to hackers and they were waived off of their concerns by the main subcontractor.

Out of all of those headlines, we've got the subcontractor saying, this is shady being told to delete some of the back-up. It happens while she is under investigation. The FBI actually went into state today and seize four computers. They don't do that as part of a political hit jab.  This is the Obama administration investigating her. So what do you think is the most important headline?

SHANNEN COFFIN, FORMER DOJ ASSISTANT DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL: Well, look, the seizure of the State Department servers by the FBI is very important. And it shows that they're getting deeper and deeper into the question of how did classified information get onto these unclassified e- mail chains. And that's what that investigation is all about.

KELLY: Which is potentially a felony.

COFFIN: Oh, absolutely. And look, there are lots of potential felonies running around here. The story of the Platte River Networks e- mail chain where they're saying, you know, there's some shady stuff going on here. I'm not going to go all Rich Lowry on you, but you get the clue.  Is -- is -- you know, is really important, as well. Because what that showed is -- and we've had a sense of this, is that as she is under investigation by -- and there's a big Benghazi investigation on "The Hill," as FOIA requests are coming in, as the State Department is asking for these e-mails back, she is, through intermediaries, telling her server people to start deleting things. That really sends up a massive red flag, and we're talking about sort of the obstruction of justice charges.

KELLY: That's the critical thing because it was the summer of 2014, she was unnoticed of at least one investigation into her dealings. It was later in 2014 and early 2015 that she went on through her surrogates, I gather, to direct this company to start deleting the back-ups. Like stop backing me up. I want those back-ups deleted.

COFFIN: Seems to have happened in two different batches according to the Platte River emails. Sometime in October of 2014, and even earlier this year. And this was after, you know, a year and a half of investigations about Benghazi. Look, even if there weren't subpoenas in place, and we think that the first subpoenas weren't issued until this year. Even if there weren't subpoenas in place, and I'm going to get all legal on you. There's a concept called anticipatory obstruction of justice.

KELLY: No, she was unnoticed. She was unnoticed. And she had potentially deleted emails --  

COFFIN: -- investigations going on.


COFFIN: Right.

KELLY: -- thinking that they were going to be responsive. She should be in a lot of trouble. And that investigation will continue now as the companies come under scrutiny and seem to be ready to defend themselves.  Shannon, good to see you.

COFFIN: Good to see you too, Megyn.

KELLY: Well, the Clinton team deals with the latest e-mail fall out.  There was more bad news for the campaign today in the form of a video. It features a focus group hosted by Bloomberg politics with democratic voters in New Hampshire weighing in on whether Mrs. Clinton is likable. Spoiler alert. It did not go well. Watch.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What it's like, what do you see in there --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You know, when she's -- I don't want to use the word, but --


It's, like, women need to be equal. I mean, I don't -- I just -- I don't think -- I don't feel unequal.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I like Hillary. I think she's a strong candidate.  But she has that --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't think she has to have that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. And she has that. That condescending. And I can see that causing gridlock.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She does seem a little condescending.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I don't even think it's condescending. I think it's a strange word for me. I'm thinking it's more, like --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm smarter than you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Or, and, I'm a woman. I deserve it.


KELLY: Hmm. Joining me now, Richard Socarides, White House senior advisor under President Bill Clinton and a democratic strategist. Well, they didn't seem to love her.

RICHARD SOCARIDES, WHITE HOUSE SENIOR ADVISOR UNDER PRESIDENT BILL CLINTON: Well, they were some nice things they said in other parts of that tape.

KELLY: But Bloomberg saying, there were so many not nice things.  They had to edit it. They couldn't air all of the not nice things.

SOCARIDES: Can you say that word on TV that she said?

KELLY: It rhymes with witchy.

SOCARIDES: We can't really say that?

KELLY: I don't know. Don't ask me. We've kind of had a couple of snafus lately. I'm not the one to ask.

SOCARIDES: Okay. Listen. I think that she suffers -- well, first of all let me say I've known Hillary Clinton for over 20 years. And I find her quite lovely. And I really like her and I think she's a nice person.

KELLY: Very nice. But it's not about you.

SOCARIDES: It's not about me. But, I think she also suffers a little bit from the double standard that many women suffer from. I mean, if we're electing a leader, we want someone to be strong. But we don't want women to be too strong, not too aggressive. Because, you know, we want to see their feminine side. And I think she does a lot of things that if a man did it, the man would be seen as a strong leader. So, I think --

KELLY: Can you get to Carly Fiorina too?

SOCARIDES: I think Carly Fiorina will suffer from some, you know, if her candidacy really takes off, I think she will suffer from some of the same faith.

KELLY: Do you think that Hillary Clinton is penetrating on the question of likability? Because her honest and trustworthy numbers are just terrible. A recent poll out just now. Florida, Ohio, Pennsylvania.  Is she honest and trustworthy? Thirty three percent, 34 percent, 35 percent. The vast majority, 60 percent of these voters say, she is not.  She is not honest.

SOCARIDES: Well, but she's also winning in those states, right?

KELLY: What does that tell you about the electorate?

SOCARIDES: I know. What does that tell you about the American politics, too, right?

KELLY: Right.

SOCARIDES: But listen, I think that the campaign has to do some things to try to put out a more rounded image of her. I think that's why she was on Saturday night live this weekend.

KELLY: That's a step in the right direction.

SOCARIDES: That's step in the right direction. I think that we also saw her compassionate side on display when she was talking about some other victims of gun violence. I mean, she's been a fighter for children all of her life. So, she really does have this compassionate side. But I think that we don't see enough of it. We don't see certainly enough of her funny side. She can be very funny. She can also be --

KELLY: But on the e-mail front, what's going to happen? Because they're trying now to dismiss this investigation that Ron Johnson is pushing? That on the fact that there were two back-up server companies and they were calling this shady. She now says, that is like the Benghazi thing. That's just another Benghazi. They are just about to bring my poll numbers down. That's it. This e-mail question is a legitimate, the FBI is seizing computer servers.

SOCARIDES: Well, listen, there are legitimate questions about the e- mail. And I think they will be answered. But I think we have to not rush to judgment. You know, obviously, I don't think that she's done anything wrong. I think that some of the e-mail stuff may have been mishandled --  

KELLY: How is the FBI seizing if there's nothing wrong has occurred.

SOCARIDES: Well, nothing else, because there's a Congressional investigation. I mean, I will admit that it doesn't, you know, on the surface it doesn't sound great. But let's remember that I think everything she did has been perfectly legal. There have been no accusations that she did anything wrong.   

KELLY: Yes. There have been accusations that matter. Yes.

SOCARIDES: But, but she admitted that she would have been a wiser course to use two e-mails.

KELLY: Yes. She got there, eventually. However. There are remaining questions about whether she broke the law. I don't know about you, but I'd be very uncomfortable if the F.B.I. went into my office and seized my computer.

SOCARIDES: Well, Megyn, It's not a good day.

KELLY: A lot of Saks Fifth Avenue bills and Toys R Us bills.

SOCARIDES: It's not a good day. They probably found some of that stuff for her in there, too.

KELLY: Right. We don't care about that.

SOCARIDES: I think that you should have Hillary Clinton on the show.  I think you would like her.

KELLY: Why don't you talk to her and tell her to come? I think it would be the best interview she would sit for?

SOCARIDES: I think it would be fantastic. I think you would love her and she would like you. I know she would like you too.

KELLY: There you go. You heard it here first. Mr. Socarides, Hillary, are you listening? Thank you, Madame. Great to see you.

SOCARIDES: Great to see you, too.

KELLY: Well, we're also tracking the political fallout tonight after "The New York Times" runs a big piece suggesting Donald Trump is losing traction with the media and the voters.

Chris Stirewalt and Howie Kurtz are here next on what the Times got right and what it did not.

Plus, Dr. Ben Carson taking new heat tonight after his remarks about trying to defend yourself when a mass shooter shows up. A former Navy Seal, tonight, weighs in. Don't miss this segment.

And then an upcoming film called "Truth." That's the name of it.  Details Dan Rather's stunning departure from CBS over a report he did about President George W. Bush. Remember this, 2004? But there are serious concerns about how much actual truth is being presented by Robert Redford in this film.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This really are the holy grail of documents.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're out of time.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go, go, go, go!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tonight, we have new information on the president's military service.


KELLY: A new poll out tonight from a New York Times reports suggesting presidential candidate Donald Trump is losing traction with the media and the voters. The Times uses a media research company to look at how often the candidate is mentioned in media reports. For example, when the GOP front-runner sheriff's Senator Lindsey Graham's personal phone number, remember that? It got mentioned 34,000 times. But when Trump pranked Marco Rubio this week, just 7,500 mentions. Beating "The New York Times" separate claim, "Donald Trump's act seems to be wearing out its welcome." But is that true?

FOX News digital politics editor Chris Stirewalt is here along with the host of "Media Buzz" Howie Kurtz. Great to see you both.

So there is a metric by which you can measure how talked about any given candidate is. And "The New York Times" says this metric does not have good news for Donald Trump, Chris.

CHRIS STIREWALT, FOX NEWS DIGITAL POLITICS EDITOR: Well, there are live statisticians. There's all kinds of metrics that you can measure anything by. If you were Donald Trump, you'd say that the metric that you care about is that you're leading in the polls and that continues to be the case. But there is something instructive here for Trump and I think he knows. The act is wearing thin in the sense that if you want to grow and expand, to get to the nomination, to get outside of that about 25 percent of the party that he steadily held since the middle of July, you've got to have new material. You can't just be -- the insult comic dog all the way through. And I think you're starting to see that as he goes through and tries to be more substantive, tries to be more serious and dials back on some of the really bonkers stuff.

KELLY: Uh-hm. But what do you make of it, Howie? Because, you know, he pranked Rubio as sending him the water and that got much publicity.  But not that much. Was it that -- it just wasn't as funny as the Graham thing? Or is there a larger message to be read into that?

HOWIE KURTZ, FOX NEWS HOST, "MEDIA BUZZ": It wasn't as funny. And look, the novelty is wearing off a little bear. Even Trump says, he hasn't bore any commercials yet because he doesn't the public OD on him. I mean, it seems to me that instead of being covered 24 hours a day, it's been covered 20 hours a day. As a matter candidate are getting coverage, I mean, candidates would run over their grandmothers to get the kind of exposure that Donald Trump is getting.

KELLY: Oh, nanna.

KURTZ: It's an exciting thing.


KELLY: Specifically, I want to know, they're not getting anybody's vote. Okay. But you look at these polls, Chris. And they talk about how, you know, O'Reilly once read an update saying that he was voted the most loved news host in the country and the most hated. In a typical Bill of fashion, he loved that. (LAUGHTER)

Trump has the same position in these polls. He's atop of almost all of these polls. And he's atop the list of the people they would never vote for.

STIREWALT: Right. So he's trying to sort of go legit. He's trying to go mainstream. He's going to -- told "The Washington Post," he's going to buy some TV ads in the weeks to come. He is having more substantive discussion, got himself into old trouble on that talking about eminent domain with Bret Baer yesterday. But he is trying to be more of a normal candidate as opposed to just surfing this crazy sight guys. However, it's a touch line to walk. You know, remember Evel Knievel? And if, everybody came to see him jump the Grand Canyon. You can't get up there and say, I'm going to jump the Grand Canyon?

Well, actually, I'm going to ride a donkey down this side of the Grand Canyon and then come back up the other side. You've got to jump, baby.  They came to see him jump the canyon. He's got to keep giving his supporters what they want, which is outrageous and it's got to be slashing and burning through the political establishment. If he starts to get a little bulky about that, he'll have trouble with his base.

KELLY: But the question is Howie, as "The New York Times" pass is whether outrageous has run its course. And people are starting to tire of antics and they want to hear -- they want him to focus on policy.

KURTZ: Well, he's done that impart by putting out the detail tax cut plan, and at the same time you know --

KELLY: There's no question. He has been. But he's also been doing the other stuff.

KURTZ: But the media is so tired of Donald Trump, why has it been the last four days he's been on FOX with Bret Baer, he's been on CNN, he's been on --  

KELLY: How are the ratings been?

KURTZ: The ratings have been fine. That's why people keep putting him on.

KELLY: That's not true. That's not true. There isn't the same spike as their used to be.

KURTZ: Okay. Well, you can't, you know, be up at that stratospheric level forever and other candidates are getting more airtime. But there's one other sentence I want to call out. A bit condescending. FOX News opinion commentator, it says the Times, no longer go on breathlessly about Mr. Trump's antics. I don't think they ever did that. What happened is, many commentators, conservative commentators at FOX don't like Trump because they don't think he's a real conservative. That's not the same thing as the mainstream media tiring of him. That's more ideological nature.

KELLY: Well, and listen, when he was first, you know sort of rising there in the polls Stirewalt and saying all of this stuff, I mean, he had the entire country's attention. Love him or hate him, everyone was paying attention to him, the question is, is that stopping? Are we seeing an end to that?

STIREWALT: He's got to figure out -- and look, he's trying to do it.  He's hiring staff. He's trying to become more of a normal candidate who has a structure and has an organization that will take him through the early states. So, that isn't just again, when the -- that he is washed up.  He's trying to beat that. However, when we look at the poll that you mentioned earlier, the Quinnipiac University poll for Florida, Ohio and Pennsylvania, when we look at that poll, we see that he, Jeb Bush and Hillary Clinton have the same problem. They're liked by some but disliked by a lot.

KELLY: Uh-hm. And also the other thing is, you have to win at least two of those states, you have to win at least two of those states if you want to win the election.

STIREWALT: You have to believe it.

KELLY: And he's leading in those states, right? He is leading.  Since 1960 no candidate has won the White House without taking --

STIREWALT: He's leading among Republicans.

KELLY: -- two of the three state of Florida, Ohio and Pennsylvania.  He's leading among Republicans. But I mean, the Republicans have to pick the person they think can win. I realized that he's got worst chances in the general election in some of these other Republicans. But you've got to get the nomination first. So the rest of the guys would trade places with him in a minute when it comes to those leads, maybe. I don't know.


KELLY: You tell me. I've got to go. Good to see you both. Donkey.  The donkey. No, that would take forever.

Well, coming up, Cosmopolitan magazine managed to stir up a lot of controversy this week when it seems to suggest that the Kardashian are America's first real family. Really? Brian Kilmeade joins on for that.  And wait until you hear the line-up we have for him today. It's so good.  Things you can't say at the playground now and in sports. We'll update you.

And with Dan Rather's departure from CBS set to get big screen treatment in a new film called "Truth," we'll look at whether Hollywood is rewriting history when Dana Perino joins us next.

Well, look at, there she is.


KELLY: Well, controversy over an upcoming film about legendary newsman Dan Rather. A film titled "Truth." Rather ended his 44 years of CBS News after a report about President George W. Bush turned out to be based on documents that could not be verified.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tonight, we have new information on the President's military service.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Here's to a great story.


KELLY: That report cost rather the CBS evening news anchor chair and was later the subject of a multi-million dollar lawsuit between Rather and CBC. A suit he wound up losing. And while Rather insisted that his reporting was accurate, there were growing concerns about how much actual truth will be presented to viewers in this movie.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I do not get to do this. I do not get to smack as just for asking the question.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Somebody has got to confirm those memos.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This isn't a trial. This is a hunt.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What we're talking about is you're bringing your politics into your reporting.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I did nothing at the time. Our story is about whether the president is -- the film. Nobody wants to talk about that.  They want to talk about font and forgery.


KELLY: Back with us now, Howie Kurtz, host of Fox News "MediaBuzz."  And Dana Perino is here, co-host of "The Five" and former White House press secretary under President George W. Bush who was the subject of that report.

Howie, you looked into this for "MediaBuzz." How truthful does the movie "Truth" sound to you?

KURTZ: Robert Redford on this movie seemed to adopt the Dan Rather theory and it's just a theory, that somehow a perfectly flying bit of investigative journalism was squashed because of corporate pressure and caving to the Bush administration. The facts Megyn are that this was a case study in journalistic malpractice and that's not my opinion, I took this from the CBS' own experts who raise red flags about this 30-year-old documents. And also, an outside investigation, commission by CBS founded - -  

KELLY: They relied on documents to prove what about President Bush.  Documents that turned out to be untrue.

KURTZ: I'm sorry, they relied on documents alleging purportedly that George W. Bush as a young lieutenant at Texas Air National Guard had gone AWOL. And this documents was supposedly written expect it looked like they were not, actually written on a 1970s typewriter by Bush's late squadron commander and the source who brought this information to CBS was later found to have lied and admitted to Dan Rather on camera that he had lied.

KELLY: And yet Dan Rather and his producer Mary Mapes held on like this. To the story. And until the point where they can hold on no longer, the truth overcame. And Howie, stand-by because Dana, you say this is an example of the first real social media uprising in the country.

DANA PERINO, FOX NEWS CO-HOST, "THE FIVE": It was. I remember it very well, this whole time. And I believe that Dan Rather and Mary Mapes wanted nothing more than this story to be true and they let that get themselves in a lot of trouble. So citizen journalists are just sort of coming on board. And they actually took the mainstream media the task.  There were questions about the documents because the fonts didn't match-up.  Why does this matter because --

KELLY: Sixteen minutes -- these documents up saying, these are real.  These prove that George W. Bush high tailed it.

PERINO: That's right.

KELLY: And citizen journalists see the documents and what happened?

PERINO: Well, they start saying -- they ask questions like, could these possibly be real? Football, power lines and then CBS News, a friend of mine, Bob Louie (ph), friend of mine, later, I made him later. His wife was a graphic artist. And he says do you think this is possible? She says no, because that font didn't exist in that time frame. If you go to Wikipedia and type in Killian documents, that's the guy who gave the documents to Dan Rather. You can see a video that shows you how they were different. And I really feel like unfortunately this movie is called "Truth" but that is based on the producer's book.

KELLY: Mary Mapes.

PERINO: Her book called "Truth" --

KELLY: Who is been disgraced.

PERINO: Completely. She has not worked in television since. And for good reason.

KELLY: And now she's got Kate Blanchett playing her. And out there, you know, from the look of the trailer making her sound like a hero who has been wronged, villainized by an unfair media when, in fact, her behavior led to Dan Rather having to come up publicly and own their mistakes. I mean, he came out, do we have the clip? Watch what Dan Rather was ultimately forced to say in case you don't see this in truth.


DAN RATHER, JOURNALIST: The failure of CBS News to do just that to properly fully scrutinize the documents and their source led to our airing the documents when we should not have done so. It was a mistake. CBS News deeply regrets it. Also, I want to say personally and directly, I'm sorry.


KELLY: Unbelievable.

PERINO: So he apologizes then. Then he takes CBS to court, gets laughed out by the judge. That's a lawsuit that's going nowhere. And now, in Hollywood glory, they try to retell the story. In Hollywood fashion with wonderful actors, telling truth, which actually turns out not to be true. So, I think it's really important that people watch "The Kelly File."  Read Kyle Smith in The New York Post, his review of this movie, absolutely destroyed it point by point.

KELLY: Uh-hm. And then "60 Minutes," a CBS News' has come out and said it is astounding how little truth there is in truth. This movie.  Great to see you.

PERINO: Thank you.

KELLY: Dr. Ben Carson is taking new heat after igniting a media firestorm with remarks saying he would've attacked the gunman behind last week's massacre in an Oregon community college.

Up next, a former navy seal weighs in on god forbid what you should do if you find yourself in a situation where your life is at risk.

Plus, a new dramatic twist in the story of Ahmed the clock boy, ahead of his trip to the White House later this month, wait until you see what we found on his father's Facebook page.


KELLY: Developing tonight, Dr. Ben Carson taking new heat for suggesting that the folks on that college campus in Oregon should have attacked the shooter while he was shooting them. While Carson says he was talking about self-defense, the media attacks have not stopped.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Welcome to CBS this morning, Ben Carson is lighting up the gun control debate with controversial comments on mass shootings. The GOP Presidential Candidate says he would sacrifice his life if he were face to face with the gunman. He said he rather see a body with bullet holes than gun control.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Republican Presidential hopeful Ben Carson feels the heat for comments on gun control.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's beyond insensitive. It's hard to hear that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think just as a rule, don't explain what you would have done.


KELLY: Joining me now, Jonathan Gilliam, a former Navy Seal who knows just how important it is to react in these types of potentially deadly situations in the right way, great to see you, John.


KELLY: So putting aside the controversy, about you know whether he should have commented or not commented, I think a lot of people are wondering, sadly, in 2015 America, what they should do. His point now is just having a plan. That's what I'm saying. Have a plan. You actually agree with that.

GILLIAM: I totally agree with that. In fact, you know when you said rush -- I don't see anything insensitive about that whatsoever. He was just giving what he thought was a play-by-play of what he thought would have been ineffective. And that action, in that moment, that may have been the only action they have to rush somebody or end up begging for your life.  There's often, in these situations, these active shooter situations last between 60 seconds and 5 minutes.

KELLY: And you're terrified. Your heart rate is pumping. So how do you have any presence of mine mind to do anything other than cower.

GILLIAM: You have to think of this stuff before that day, ok. So there are four things I would like people to think about. You know they're not going to become a navy seal overnight. They're not going to become an FBI agent and go through this training. What you need to concentrate are four things. And basically, the first thing understands what a critical area is. That's an area where this potentially could happen. And what the times are for that area. If you go to that school at 3:00 a.m., there's nobody there, it's not a critical time. But it's very critical when school is in session. So you need to understand that.

Secondly, you need to have an understanding or a plan of what you would do and the way you do that is you train your mind. So training goes along with that. You don't have to go out and learn how to box, but in your mind. Third thing is awareness. You need to be aware of what's normal and what's not as far as behavior goes. And the last thing is that you need to decide that you're going to act now, not when you get in there.

KELLY: But how do you know whether you should rush the shooter, whether you should run from the shooter, whether you could stay and bargain.

GILLIAM: Well, your choices are limited. And what I'd like to see is an empowered citizenry that works together in these things, because if you have to rush somebody by yourself, it may not work out that well. However, like this army veteran that rushed the door, he got shot seven times, but he's still alive.

KELLY: Are the odds in your favor if you run? Run? Because I heard experts say you run and the odds of him actually hitting you are slimmer than if you're obviously just sitting there.

GILLIAM: Well, this is something where shelter and place works and sometimes as we saw in -- I think it was Kenya, shelter and place didn't work. Everybody got killed at the shelter there. Running is often -- you can run, run as fast -- just fast as you can. Because active shooters are engaged in the room, so if you can get out and run, I suggest that. The other thing is, understanding where you can hide, what's effective.  There's a teacher in upstate New York when we had the shooting in Sandy Hook. She hid all of her students in a bathroom that's never used, tiny bathroom and they locked the door and hid them in there.

KELLY: It's such a dark subject and you hate to have to think you might need to be prepared, but what can it hurt to at least spend a few minutes thinking if this were to happen, god forbid, I need to know my options. I need to think about these considerations.

GILLIAM: It's the reality of where we live now. You think about that when you look your door at night.

KELLY: We do disaster prep for storms and so on.

GILLIAM: It's the same thing.

KELLY: Jonathan, great to see you. Thank you, sir.

GILLIAM: You got it.

KELLY: We also have a disturbing new twist tonight in the story of Ahmed Mohammad, the boy who was arrested for bringing his homemade clock that looked like a bomb to school. He has been invited to a science fair at the White House on October 19th, but it is the alarming 911 conspiracy theory post on his father's social media account that caught our attention.  Trace Gallagher is live in our west coast newsroom with the story, Trace.

GALLAGHER: Megyn, while 14-year-old Ahmed Mohammad is still on his world tour gaining recognition for his alleged scientific and engineering capabilities after he was arrested and suspended for bringing what some believe was a hoax bomb to school, we learned Ahmed's father, Sudanese political activist El-Hassan Mohammad has two different Facebook pages. One is a personal page where he appears pro-America. When he was asked about ISIS threatening to kill police officers, he responded "killing is not right and is prohibited in Islam. As Allah mentioned in the Koran, if you kill one person without rightness, it is as you are killing all mankind."

But there's also an Arabic Facebook page for the National Reform Party, a political party started by El-Hassan Mohammad, bearing a similar profile picture and address. Only this web page is much more active and the tone is very different, including a 14 minute conspiracy theory clip on the 9/11 terrorist attack and the post that shows the smoking world trade towers describing it as a U.S.-sponsored hoax to launch a world war against Islam and Muslims. We should note El-Hassan Mohammad has repeatedly run for President of Sudan despite living near Dallas.

As for finding out more information about the clock that Ahmed says he built and how some believe he was targeted for his race and religion, the Irving School District says it has information that would shed new light on why he did it, but they can't release it because he's a minor and his family would have to sign off on it. The problem is the districts sent the release form to the wrong lawyer, Megyn.

KELLY: Trace, thank you.

Up next, Cosmo Magazine managed to stir a lot of controversy this week when it suggested that the Kardashians are America's first family.

Plus, how did a group inmates manage to defeat the Harvard Debate Team?

And then, wait until you hear about a new plan to -- the P.C. police to our playgrounds. Brian Kilmeade is next in all of that.

And later, guess who's celebrating a big birthday today. Wait until you see what we dug out of the vault.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is Fox News now. In 15 minutes, good morning everyone, I'm Allison Costarini.



KELLY: Developing tonight, a crisis on America's playgrounds. One school district had now hired consultants to organize recess over concerns that too many children had their feelings hurt or wind up being left out.  And that's not all, co-host of Fox and Friends Brian Kilmeade joins now.  All right, Brian, so the problem is recess needs to be more inclusive and therefore they need a new recess strategy.

BRIAN KILMEADE, CO-HOST OF "FOX & FRIENDS": Right. And it's recess consultants that need to be higher for $30,000, this recess consultant to go out during free time, recess time, and tell the kids really what to do, and play a supervising role. Although, they claim not to, the problem is, when you play king of the mountain, there's only one guy on the mountain.  Other kids don't win, it makes them feel bad.

KELLY: That's right. But they also want to supervise them when they jump rope and play four square. What can go wrong?

KILMEADE: I'm not sure. But evidently the nurse said the volume of people that she's seen after recess with this new plan has gone down.

KELLY: So it's gone down.

KILMEADE: It's gone down.

KELLY: So it's working.

KILMEADE: So it's working. We're getting along. But here's my problem, Megyn. And I think you might have the same problem. Kids need to be picked last. Kids need to be told you're too short and too slow. And guess what, they know it. But that sets the fire for the future. You can't have a referee in these games. It's called free play.

KELLY: They're actually suggesting that in the baseball game, they're suggesting that you have to replace that with good try or you almost made it to first base. Are you kidding me? Let's have a hug before you go back to the dugout.

KILMEADE: One thing, you've gotten very hard in your old age, 177 parents in Concorde Elementary have believed what you believe and they think it's wrong. They want to go back to free play on recess.

KELLY: And when you're out, you're out. Did you just call me old?

Ok, apparently the Kardashians and not the Obama's are America's first family according to Cosmopolitan Magazine. And people in twitter are PO'd about this.

KILMEADE: Take a quiz at home, can Khloe, Kourtney, Kendall, Kiley, and Kris are all on the cover, and it turns it out according to Ryan Seacrest that are America's first family, why, he's the Executive Producer and he's making a zillion dollars off them. And here's why, they've put their whole life on television. They've shown how glamorous and rich and successful they are. But I believe they're not America's family because we should vote, but I believe there is something about them that's nice, because they are narcissistic. But they're not angry.


KILMEADE: Thank you, you've just insulted 300 million people. To a degree we all are, but my feeling is they're not mean, they're not out there -- throwing tables and doing things.

KELLY: I know but the sex tape business and the celebrity based on the showing of the sex appeal with the young girls...

KILMEADE: They have a medical plan that allows physical adjustments at elective surgery. I don't think we should really judge.

KELLY: All right. Let's move on to Harvard, because Harvard suffered a major defeat. Perhaps you didn't hear about it in your local paper. But the Harvard Debate Team it's not as good as it once was because they got beaten by...

KILMEADE: Three prisoners on the debate team. There's a bar college debate team. And the one that they have in common, they're all convicted of violent crimes. They're in prison, they have a chance to go this barred college -- part of a program that's been around for 15 years, and the better ones get to go on the debate team. They beat the University of Vermont.

KELLY: They debate at the prison? Then you don't get a day pass.

KILMEADE: Well, I believe -- I don't know if it was a home game for Harvard. But I will say this. Harvard lost, just like West Point lost.  Just like the University of Vermont lost. They were able to argue that successfully over the Harvard kids.

KELLY: If only they were that good when they were on trial.


KELLY: All right. Now let's talk about...

KILMEADE: Is it me or is it hot in here.


KELLY: The dad is named Paul, the son is named Caden. Little Caden wanted to dress -- there you see it as Elsa for Halloween, and now they're calling his dad, dad of the year because how did he respond?

KILMEADE: He said if you wanted to do this, I'll do that. You do it.  And not only that, he had another suggestion. He wanted his dad to plead the older sister for Halloween.


KELLY: So the dad is going to go as Anna.

KILMEADE: I personally think I admire him for having the courage to do this. And he did have an expletive for those people on Facebook. But I will say this. As a parent, you should be the watchdog to make sure there aren't pictures of you as a toddler that are going to come back to haunt you forever. Unfortunately, in that way, there's an excellent chance to Caden -- will not want a picture with him in a dress, when he's 22, 32, and 42, and dare I say 15 and 16.

KELLY: Is there anything wrong with that, little Caden, happy Halloween.

KILMEADE: I couldn't play with G.I. Joe's because they were dolls.

KELLY: I liked incredible hulk. He was my favorite. My mom says don't you want a doll? I said no.

KILMEADE: This is unbelievable. I just wanted a kung fu grip.


KELLY: Coming up, birthday party.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Good morning. Welcome to Fox News Channel.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is Fox News now, all the news you need in 15 minutes. Good morning, everyone. I'm Allison Costarini.


KELLY: Who? Sorry, I don't know her. Happy Anniversary to Fox News Channel, today, we turn 19. Fox News now airs in 70 countries and can be seen in over 100 million homes. And Happy Anniversary to the Kelly File which turned two today. Joining me now, co-host of "The Five" Dana Perino, and what a 19 years it's been. You go back and you look at the press when we first launched, and no one believed Roger Ailes could do it.

DANA PERINO, "THE FIVE" CO-HOST: I remember I worked on Capitol Hill, I was a young Press Secretary at the time. What is this Fox News thing? And then over time it became the go-to place for so many people to get their news all over the country, all different age groups.

KELLY: Look at you.

PERINO: That's at the White House.

KELLY: And look we have other choice pictures too of some of our other Fox News talent. Look at Neil Cavuto. He looks like my 2-year-old.

PERINO: Everyone even looks better now.

KELLY: Look at Bill. He looks good. The O'Reilly Report, and then I love the pictures of Shepard, and look at Sean. It's fantastic, right?

PERINO: He has good hair.

KELLY: Nineteen years, Dana, and most of those guys have been here from the beginning including Brit Hume and our own Trace Gallagher and so many -- because people who work at Fox News are nothing if not loyal.

PERINO: Well, and I had a very special relationship with everybody that Fox News viewers love very much, and everybody at Fox News loves was Tony Snow. He started at Fox and then he came to White House and he was the Press Secretary with his principal deputy, and still whenever I travel, people want to know how his family's doing. I'm happy to report they're doing great and their daughter's graduated from college. And everybody has been so supportive by the Fox family, and the Tony Snow family was really grateful for that.

KELLY: What's amazing is Roger Ailes had a vision for fair and balanced news. And no one thought it would resonate with the viewers. Now we are here, 13 years at number one. Fair to say the critics are proven wrong, great to see you.

PERINO: Thank you so much.

KELLY: We will be right back.


KELLY: Earlier tonight, I sat down for an interview with Journalist Charlie Rose. We covered a lot of ground from the Trump controversy to Fox News Chairman Roger Ailes. Watch.


KELLY: He's absolutely a mentor to me. He's also a friend. He's -- he is my boss. I mean, we're not equals. But I depend on him for friendship and honest advice and he'll give it to me. Never with respect to the news coverage, people think that Roger Ailes is this Republican operative and he's back there giving the anchors GOP talking points. No, that's all B.S. Never once in my 11 years there has he told me to cover a story or what to ask or trying to get me to change coverage of a story.  But he does give you advice on your personal life, on your -- you know who you are and how you're translating on television.


KELLY: That interview airs tonight on PBS at 11:00 p.m. Eastern. My thanks to Charlie, to Roger Ailes, to my colleagues here at Fox News, especially our team on this show, and to you our viewers, for making the Fox News Channel number one for so many years and for trusting us night after night. I'm Megyn Kelly. This is "The Kelly File."

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