Ben Carson doubles down on controversial Muslim comment

Republican presidential candidate says an American president should be sworn-in on Bibles, not a Koran


This is a rush transcript from "The Five," September 21, 2015. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

KIMBERLY GUILFOYLE, CO-HOST: This is a Fox News alert. He was the 15 republican to join the 26th presidential race and he will soon be the second republican to exit it. Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker is expected to hold a news conference at 6:00 p.m. eastern, and Fox News has confirmed, he will be suspending his campaign. Big news in developments before the show today, kicking around the table to see any level of surprise given the latest polls that came out in the wake of the debate.

GERALDO RIVERA, CO-HOST: He will not be missed. He polled under 1 percent. He never got any traction once he had the big score in Iowa. Donald Trump jumped in and totally stole all of his oxygen. I think that he will leave a lasting impression in terms of his tenure as governor of Wisconsin and taking away collective bargaining from public employees, but as a presidential candidate, he is.

GUILFOYLE: All right, was Trump hiding in your pocket right there because --


ERIC BOLLING, CO-HOST: I'll miss him. I like Scott Walker.

GUILFOYLE: You like him a lot.


BOLLING: Look, here's the deal. This is the way it goes down. Candidates suspend their candidacy rather than just dropping out because they still have bills to pay. The campaign still has to pay the bills. The super PAC, now, he has a lot of money. He had $26 million he raised last quarter.

GUILFOYLE: We have major donors.

BOLLING: You can't pay your bills with the super PAC, though. That's why he's doing that. He has to suspend, figure out how to pay the bills, and the super PAC can figure if they want let the campaign or let the Scott Walker group keep it the money, or if they want to turn that money and hand it over to Marco Rubio or who --

DANA PERINO, CO-HOST: For those -- party.

BOLLING: Or someone else, yeah. So they have to figure that out. That's why that goes down. I found it interesting, within minutes of confirming, not even hearing Scott Walker say he's dropping out, within minutes of confirming he's dropping out, the AFL-CIO who we know had a big problem with says, "You know Scott Walker is a national -- he is a disgrace, not just no longer national, taking a shot at him as he stepping away. That may come back to haunt him. Hopefully, Scott will.

GUILFOYLE: Yeah, but that still work out well for them.

BOLLING: Yeah, I hope Scott Walker ends up in a position where he can payback tonight's thought on the --but Trump on AFL-CIO.

GUILFOYLE: Like during labor (ph). OK, Dana.

PERINO: The unions are just incapable of not showing their true colors. I mean, that was just an unnecessary swipe at the governor on his way out. I mean, the union got what they wanted, he's exiting the race. I think that we have to admire anybody who is willing to put themselves in the arena.

GUILFOYLE: Absolutely.

PERINO: Not easy to go through all of that, scrutiny, put your family through that, make a decision to open yourself up and be vulnerable. I admire anybody who wants to serve the public. And I think that he will be, eventually, a very strong surrogate for whoever the nominee is going to be. He'll be an important person. In fact, you think about that debate last week, he got two questions.


PERINO: In three hours of the debate. There was a lot of hype about him in the two years leading up to this election cycle. There was a lot of excitement about him. And I think that in some ways, that bar was really high for him to clear. I wish him the best. And also, I would note that not only did the AFL-CIO put out a statement, but the Rubio campaign has announced that they already have received the endorsement of the New Hampshire person that was in support of Scott Walker there in New Hampshire. That's an important endorsement for Marco Rubio. And now, also, there are a lot of good staff members on the Walker campaign, and as these campaigns consolidate, they're going to need more staff, and so I'm sure that some of those people will be getting calls soon.

GUILFOYLE: Well, absolutely. And you just wonder if this is kind of a little bit of foreshadowing, if people are gonna go to Rubio from this camp. We'll see.

PERINO: Right.

GUILFOYLE: Some of the major donors and the super PAC people will probably play a very large role in that to determine where they're gonna funnel the money, the support and the staffers, Greg.

GREG GUTFELD, CO-HOST: Yeah, well, most talent thing is these two governors that have dropped out. That's kind of interesting. But the reason he dropped out, obviously, he's Muslim.

BOLLING: That's why he left.

GUTFELD: Damn, I didn't think of that one.


GUTFELD: He once wants Ben Carson to call the (inaudible), he said, "I'm gone. I'm out of here."

RIVERA: What was I thinking?


RIVERA: Of course.

GUTFELD: "I can't be president. I'm a Muslim."

GUILFOYLE: Yeah. Now you know.

RIVERA: He's a cheese head.

GUILFOYLE: You know that I can go now after that comment. So like.

GUTFELD: By the way, he was supposed to do The Five this week. Did you know that? That's the other reason why he dropped out.

RIVERA: They said they got dropped out before that.

GUTFELD: Yeah, that's true.

GUILFOYLE: That is a.

PERINO: We could still take him.


PERINO: We should still take him and.


GUILFOYLE: And his not.

PERINO: Spill the beans.

GUILFOYLE: We're still here for you.

OK, more on Walker ahead, but now to some other 2016 news, fresh of The Hill of Trump's controversy, involving a supporter who accused our president of being Muslim. Ben Carson is now taking heat for this comment regarding Muslims and the presidency.


CHUCK TODD, MEET THE PRESS HOST: Should a president's faith matter? Should your faith matter to voters?

BEN CARSON, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, I guess it depends what that faith is. If it's inconsistent with the values and principles of America, then, of course, it should matter, but if it fits within the realm of America and consistent with the constitution, no problem.

TODD: So do you believe that Islam is consistent with the constitution?

CARSON: No, I don't. I do not -- I would not advocate that we put a Muslim in charge of this nation. I absolutely would not agree with that.


GUILFOYLE: Sweet Ben. In an interview with The Hill, Carson stood by that comment, saying he thinks an American president should be sworn in on a stack of Bibles and not on a Koran. Some of his republican opponents are slamming him for his remarks.


TED CRUZ, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You know the constitution specifies, there should be no religious test for public office, and I'm a constitutionalist.

LINDSEY GRAHAM, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think this shows that Dr. Carson is not ready to be commander-in-chief. America is an idea, not owned by a particular religion, race or anything else. Out of many, comes one.


GUILFOYLE: All right, a lot of mix across the board, but Ben is just kind of a sweet guy who tells the truth as he sees it. He's not the kind of guy that would say, "Well, maybe it's not a good idea" by saying exactly what I think about this.

RIVERA: He's that the kind of guy that raised the constitution of the United States Article Six?

GUILFOYLE: My point is this is way he believes.

RIVERA: The First Amendment, the Bill of Rights.

GUILFOYLE: This is way he believes, so he's not lying about it.

RIVERA: Then he can take the oath to protect and defend the constitution of the United States.

GUILFOYLE: So say it's true?

RIVERA: So he can't be president. I mean, it is preposterous.

GUILFOYLE: Well, I don't see why.

RIVERA: He could be -- he could.

GUILFOYLE: He can't be president.

RIVERA: No. The -- a guy could run as a vegan.

GUTFELD: How did that? --

RIVERA: A guy could run and pick your religion. The founders of our republic, specifically said, there will be no litmus test based on religion.


RIVERA: You can have the second part of the statement.


RIVERA: That he wouldn't advocate the Muslim.


RIVERA: Being president.


RIVERA: But to say a Muslim couldn't be president because.

GUILFOYLE: Well, as making a statement of constitutional facts would be problem for this neurosurgeon. However, he's saying what he actually believes in good faith. That's what I'm saying. He's not like, lying because his campaign told him, "Dude, don't say that."

RIVERA: Well, as a rookie mistake.

BOLLING: And a mistake it probably was, Geraldo. And give him a credit for that. Look, he stepped up and said exactly what he felt about not being able to advocate a Muslim as president. And I think there are a lot of people out there who heard that and said, "You know what, I couldn't either." His mistake was that he coordinated the constitution.

RIVERA: Right.

BOLLING: Chuck Todd let him into the constitutionality of the idea, and he make -- he did. He blundered that and he could fix that very easily saying, "I didn't really understand the question or the Article Six of the constitution." That aside, he could stills come back with the original part of his -- his idea was that because in Islam, Sharia law supersedes governing law. And unless you're willing to denounce Sharia law as your -- as the governing law over yourself, and anyone you oversee, I wouldn't vote Muslim either. If there was a Muslim who said who I love as the president and why he wasn't willing to denounce the fact that Sharia law supersedes the constitution, you're gonna see the constitution over the Sharia law.

RIVERA: You wouldn't vote for Muslim? Would you vote for a Jew?

BOLLING: You didn't hear what I said.

PERINO: Irrelevant.

BOLLING: If I say -- if I say -- if the Muslim was not willing to oversee that the constitution.

RIVERA: Oh, well.

BOLLING: Supersedes Sharia law, then I could vote for the many the woman.

RIVERA: I -- nor would I.

GUILFOYLE: Right. And there are plenty of people who made the point, there are many law-abiding, you know, Muslims that say, "No problem, we don't believe in Sharia law, they are against the Islamic fundamentalist and the terrorists, so, you know, no problem."

BOLLING: But that's the basis of Islam? Isn't not, am I wrong? Isn't that the basis of Islam, the Sharia law is your governing law no matter what?

RIVERA: I don't know. Well, I know is that a lot of crazy orthodox in every religion. And they all make me nervous when they get too far out and make it all about something else.

GUILFOYLE: Dana, was this of their question?

PERINO: That's what I actually want to talk about. I think the media is gonna ask whatever question they want. I'll be curious if they would ever ask that question of Hillary Clinton. I doubt it. They've got plenty of other things to ask her about as well, but this is something that, if I were any of the candidates and was asked this question, I think I would have said, "Objection, it's irrelevant. There is no Muslim that is running for president in 2016. I'm running for president for 2016. Want to hear about my platform for taxes, energy, education, world -- whatever it is I'm not going to come about a Muslim becoming president in 2016 because there are no Muslims running as president." And I think that these candidates have to figure out a way to flip these things around. Like when they're asking about the refugee crisis? They need this point right back to the fundamental problem of what happened in Obama-Clinton White House and State Department, four years ago and how we got to this point. Instead of always just answer, what they would do today, they have to talk about their worldview at large. And I think on this one, in particular, there's a reason that in media training, you teach people not to answer a hypothetical question because it's irrelevant.

GUILFOYLE: That would they - it's gonna capture that little lesson plan right there from you. But let.



GUTFELD: Can I actually weigh in on this, Kimberly?

GUILFOYLE: Yeah, you can. I was gonna give you a SOT, all for yourself and let you.

GUTFELD: No, I'd rather talk about Ben Carson because I want to talk about where this anxiety is coming from.

GUILFOYLE: This is Ben Carson, OK.

GUTFELD: That there's a skepticism in this country about assimilation, which maybe founded or unfounded. But the fact is there is skepticism about how certain culture are being assimilated. And so we start talking about Sharia law, which is highly unrealistic, but people feel that way. Then we have this thread assessment of a religion that we believe has not addressed accurately, radically, their own extremist element, that bothers us too. You put those two together, you have people that are understandingly concerned, it's -- two birds that could be killed with one stone with Muslims openly mocking their extremists. But Carson, this is -- in his defense, did not spend his life in media training. He spent his life operating on babies.

PERINO: Saving lives.

GUTFELD: He spent his life doing things and not saying things. And if you had a choice, if you are trapped on a disserted island between an alighting progressive, who believes all religions are equal and wonderful, and everything's wonderful or a team sport Christian, who could set a broken limb and cure disease while you're there, you're going to pick that guy. You're going to pick practicality over progressivism. Having said that, though, you need criticism, criticism is your guardrail, somebody's got to be there to say, "Hey, don't say those things. Don't indulge the conservatives who forward e-mails of Obama in a in (inaudible)."

RIVERA: You give him too much credit. Rookie mistake, just like Trump's not handling the thrall (ph) who questioned him up in New Hampshire. He's a rookie mistakes, this is.

GUTFELD: That was a set-up.

RIVERA: This is what happens when you have amateurs.

GUTFELD: That was a set-up Geraldo. You know that it was a set-up.


BOLLING: Or you can -- as Greg points out, they -- who would rather have? Someone who spent his life in politics, not making rookie mistakes, or someone who spent their life either, a pediatric neurosurgeon or business tycoon, not worrying about what he says on both to those.

GUILFOYLE: Well and.

BOLLING: Both of those.

GUILFOYLE: Speaking of risk, let me get in this, Geraldo, I get you to response. Speaking of the frontrunner, here's his response to Carson's comments.


DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I have friends that are Muslims. They are great people, amazing people. And most Muslims like most everything, I mean, these are fabulous people, but we certainly do have a problem. I mean, you have a problem throughout the world.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: What's the problem?

TRUMP: Well, you have radicals that are doing things. I mean, it wasn't people from Sweden that blew up the World Trade Center, Jake.


GUILFOYLE: OK, good answer?

GUTFELD: We don't know that if that's true.

RIVERA: It's a fine answer as far as it goes, but when -- I'm going back to the founding documents and people on the right like to invoke the constitutions, so you have the declaration of independence. The signers, as I recall, to the declaration in independence, were all Protestants, say one Catholic. So you have one Catholic and still, they -- when they came to write the constitution, a couple of years later, they recognize that religion couldn't -- that the state could not impose religion that, you could be any religion you wanted to be. That's the very concept of America. If you can't articulate that, then you're not fit to be president, I'm very sorry.

GUILFOYLE: OK. Bolling, could you response to that?

BOLLING: For Trump or for -- are we still back to Ben Carson?

GUILFOYLE: Trump, Trump, Trump.

RIVERA: It was Carson.

BOLLING: Oh, you went back with Carson. Look, Carson said what he thought. That's all his to it. He misread the constitution. Misunderstood, he can fix that. Trump -- again, why is Trump answering what Ben Carson -- the easy answer for Trump is, I don't know, you have to ask him about that.


GUILFOYLE: That's the best question?

RIVERA: I Agree.

PERINO: Both of them could go like this, but there is, you know, the reason that we're actually spending five days on this is because Trump didn't with it on that night in New Hampshire.

BOLLING: Exactly.

PERINO: Whether it was a planned, which I'm not -- I wouldn't be surprised if it was, or if it was a prank of some sort, but there is an element that believes what the guy said. And so you could either stop at Ben or spend the next five days because you know that the media would much rather talk about that than your tax plan.

BOLLING: Does he -- and he points out, does he have the obligation morally or other, to refute every nasty comment that he hears on the campaign trail about President Obama.

GUILFOYLE: By the way, he's also saying that he doesn't necessarily think that it was a planned.

BOLLING: Or anyone for that matter.

GUILFOYLE: Because he said the guy had a beautiful Tom shirt on.

BOLLING: Or anyone for that matter. If Jeb Bush could ask the same question or he gets harassed in a same way or anyone else, do they have the obligation to stop? I don't seem like that they do.


PERINO: I guess there is -- in a way, it has to be a judgment call, right? If you think about a couple weeks ago, when we were showing black lives matter interrupting Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton and even Martin O'Malley when they we're out, you have to deal and not to be able to deal with your fringe and look, they're the ones that know better than anybody that you are always on camera and the social media is going to drive it. So you can decide not to deal with it then, but I think what this shows is, that you have to deal with it later.

GUILFOYLE: Yeah, does that show that she should have handle it then, regardless of whether or not it was a prank?

GUTFELD: I don't know. Because what we are seeing is not politics, we're seeing punditry. This is the first campaign in history, where you have candidates running as the -- as if they're panelists on the Five. The stuff that Trump has said and the stuff that Ben Carson has said has been said at this table a number of times, from me and from Beckel, when Beckel used to talk about China all the time. Remember that?


GUTFELD: I mean, this is -- a lot of this stuff comes from watching us. So it's kind of new.

GUILFOYLE: This is the source?

GUTFELD: Yes, but there's a difference.

GUILFOYLE: I got to go.

GUTFELD: There's a difference, Kimberly. We're not running for president. I don't take myself seriously.

GUILFOYLE: You're kind.

RIVERA: I don't take it seriously either.

GUTFELD: But the other thing, too -- what's underneath is too, in a way, is religion is a team sport, and it's bad for me because I don't have a team. I mean, I can -- I will never be in the White House. I mean, the (inaudible) will get there before me because I don't have a team.

GUILFOYLE: We were supposed to be one.

RIVERA: I actually (inaudible) the founder of the (inaudible).


GUTFELD: Of course you did, Geraldo.

RIVERA: And I have the videotape, of course.


PERINO: You interviewed them.

GUILFOYLE: Oh my, God. Somebody cue the tape.


GUILFOYLE: Hear the tape.

RIVERA: He was Swiss (ph).

GUILFOYLE: New one word saying for Geraldo.


GUILFOYLE: Coming up, week just started, his clock look a lot like a bomb, remember that? So a Muslim teenager was mistakenly arrested, but as the outcry of Islamophobia justified in this times that we're now living in. That's next on The Five.


GUTFELD: Remember these guys?


PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: They represent the very best of America, American character and, you know it's these kinds of young people who make me extraordinarily optimistic and hopeful about our future.


GUTFELD: So that's the president welcoming three heroes who stopped a major terror attack. But what if that Islamist on the train that they tackled was just transporting a toy gun to his child for his birthday? Those heroes would go to zeros before you could say Islamophobia.

Now we have a kid named Ahmed, bringing a clock to school that looked like a bomb. He was arrested for a hoax crime and became a star. So much so, the president invited him to the White House. Awesome, I love happy endings. But here are some thoughts from the Department of Common Sense:

As individuals, we can make our own decisions about our own safety. Teachers, they don't have that luxury. Obama dismissed such concerns through his intrusive baloney. Would he have felt differently if the thing had looked like a gun? If Ahmed brought that thing into Sidwell Friends -- where Obama's kids went to school -- forget jail, he'd be in the ER for months. And try bringing a clock that looks like a bomb to the White House. Actually, no, don't try it. You've seen what they do to people who jump fences.

So why is a school's safety a joke, but President Obama's isn't? Because for him and the media, the story fits the assumption of an America that hates Muslims. Yes, it's our fault for reacting when a kid brings a wired-up box to a place filled with kids in the state where terror has occurred.

So what should we do? Must we endure unguarded possibilities, hoping for luck or three heroes on a train? So if "see something, say something" is bigoted, I'll gladly risk the name calling.

This is the thing that bugs me, K. G., and I'm upset -- the kid, fine. If it's planned, I don't care. The president could have lauded the kid and the school because it's about people looking out for each other. The teachers were concerned. Instead, tweeting out to that kid, "Come on over." He basically dismissed the teachers' own concerns, and that means other teachers around the country are gonna be thinking, well, I don't want to look like an idiot.

GUILFOYLE: Right. We call that a complete dish on the space bed (ph) just want to throw that out there, so he's pretty much dishing all the teachers.


GUILFOYLE: E-mail him. Yes, this was an issue of public safety, safety at the school. The kid was not, you know investigated or detained because he was Muslim. Get it? Does everyone get that? It's because it was a suspicious device that was beeping in the school that scared the other students and the teacher.


GUILFOYLE: So what is wrong with being a little cautious?


GUILFOYLE: Why must you right away assume because he's a Muslim student? What if that was like, you know Johnny with blonde hair looking, Swedish. And he has the device.


RIVERA: Are really taking -- lately.


GUILFOYLE: You got to keep an eye on them.

GUTFELD: OK, but there is.

RIVERA: That they are (inaudible) last year.

GUTFELD: There is an argument, Geraldo, that they didn't evacuate the school. So clearly, they didn't think it was actually a bomb, but maybe they didn't evacuate the school because they were fearful of the media.

RIVERA: I get your point and I appreciate it and I'll give it some credit except, when it gets out of the school. Now you have the teachers, teachers are concerned. Now, don't they have science teachers there? Don't they have a principal? Should they have reasonably prudent normal adults in that school? They look at it. They see what it is, why you call the cops? Well, you got the cops.

GUTFELD: It's zero.

RIVERA: They handcuffed him.

GUTFELD: But it's zero tolerance.


RIVERA: Somebody handled it?




GUTFELD: They should handcuff the kid. They hadn't called the cops.

RIVERA: They would never say -- they would never handcuff the kid from (inaudible).

GUTFELD: Oh, all right. Well, anyway.


GUTFELD: Eric, I want you to play this sound on tape of Mark Cuban -- Bill Maher, revealing some interesting background on this.


MARK CUBAN, MAVERICKS OWNER: I talked to the kid.


CUBAN: Right? He's from Dallas. And I talked to the people in the school district. The kid is a super smart kid, science geek. We talked about science, but while I'm talking to him on the phone, as I asked him a question, "Tell me what happened?" Because I'm curious, right? His sister over his shoulder, you could hear, listening to the question, giving him the answer.




GUTFELD: I mean, maybe, he needed coaching because he is a young kid, but it's weird.

BOLLING: So - and I saw this video that you sent to (inaudible), there is a video that showed the device. Honestly, it looks like a bomb.

GUILFOYLE: It looks a timing device.

BOLLING: A timing device.


BOLLING: Inside the briefcase and I think the school was smart. I think the kid probably was, really was trying to make something interesting. He took a clock, he took it apart, put a led panel on top of it, a clock device. It looks like he was trying to make something different. I'm just gonna go out on a limb. I don't think he was trying to scare the crap out of anyone at the school, but I do think the school acted right.

GUILFOYLE: Right, that was I was saying.

BOLLING: They pulled him aside.

GUILFOYLE: Reasonable.

BOLLING: They call the cops in. I think the cops acted right. I think the only one who screwed up was President Obama who should have brought the school and the cops to the White House.


BOLLING: And bring the kid on.


BOLLING: Because I'm telling you, the minute you don't do something like this, the next one is not a clock, and it's a bomb, it's gonna blow up.

GUILFOYLE: Well that's my point.


GUILFOYLE: I mean, unbelievable. And you've got kids in schools in this country, like little munchkins go on like this with their finger, stimulating guns, they get suspended.



BOLLING: (inaudible)

GUILFOYLE: Right, but no one is upset or crying for those kids. Well, it's like, this guy with the weird clock situation, I mean, come on.

GUTFELD: Dana, would you refrain from intervening in something that could be a possible attack or something for fear of media ridicule? Like, would you think, I don't want to look stupid. Because what happen -- look after me by telling that I'm wrong.

PERINO: I hope not and there have been put in that situation, but I also know that if I were at the White House, I would have taken the seconds to say, "Let's see how this plays out for at least 12 more hours before we go out on Twitter. You know, he used to call people.


PERINO: Remember he calls in the (inaudible)?


PERINO: Like today, he was just tweet her because it is easier.


PERINO: That's what all the kids do. Nobody picks up the phone anymore.

GUTFELD: I know that's insane, like the good old days.

GUILFOYLE: Like the Golden Girls.

GUTFELD: Richard Dawkins who's a renowned scientist believes that this is a hoax. So he said into on Twitter because he -- I think he said, "It looks like clock -- it looks -- it wasn't an invention. He bought a clock into the park.


RIVERA: The kid (inaudible) for president of Sudan.


RIVERA: Couple of times.

PERINO: But if he had -- if there had been a bag of powdered sugar.


PERINO: Right? If there's gonna be an experiment.


PERINO: You would have been in trouble for that, too.

GUTFELD: Yeah, Anthrax. All right, is that what it looks like? IS that what you are getting at?

PERINO: Yeah. Well, I've never seen.


PERINO: I really haven't seen Anthrax either.

GUTFELD: Yet, don't snort, either.

All right, next. Iran's president clears up what death to America means. So stay tuned.



PERINO: It's been one of the most popular chants in Iran for decades and a personal favorite of supreme leader Ayatollah Khamenei. Death to America.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Death to America! Death to America!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Death to America! Death to America!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Death to America! Death to America!

AYATOLLAH KHAMENEI, SUPREME LEADER OF IRAN (through translator): Death to America. Yes, because America is the main cause of these pressures.


PERINO: So have we been misinterpreting that phrase all these years? Iran's president says Americans should not be taking those words personally.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm sure you realize that it is difficult for many Americans to get past the fact that President Obama has signed an agreement with a country that says, "Death to America. Death to Israel."

HASSAN ROUHANI, PRESIDENT OF IRAN (through translator): This slogan that is chanted is not a slogan against the American people.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "Death to America" is a very simple concept. Three words. Not much room left for interpretation.

ROUHANI (through translator): If America puts the enmity aside, if it initiates good well and if it compensates for the past, the future situation between the United States and Iran will change.


PERINO: Do you think, Greg, that he believes what he's saying?

GUTFELD: You know what? He's -- we're missing the whole point. Do you remember the song "A Horse with No Name?" He's talking about the band America. You know that song they sang over and over again that drove us crazy? It's "death to America," that horrible '70s band.

This is not really about Iran. I know that -- like, Geraldo thinks we should be negotiating with Iran. I'd almost agree with him, but I don't trust our negotiators, because Obama is operating from a desire for legacy. Therefore, he's saying yes before they even arranged the blind date. That's what worries me. Is I don't -- it's not that I don't trust Iran; I don't trust the White House. They'll give any -- he's like a contestant on "Family Feud." He just shouts stuff and hope -- and hopes it's right.

BOLLING: Greg, for the record, Geraldo loves America, the band.

PERINO: Geraldo, have you interviewed anybody in Iran?

RIVERA: There's a lot to that, that I don't want to waste people's time.

PERINO: Have you interviewed anybody in Iran that we've heard about?

RIVERA: I interviewed the foreign minister last -- last year for the general assembly -- not Rouhani but his foreign minister -- on the eve of the deal.

I say -- let me say a couple quick things. Iran, the bastion of Shiite Muslim, is -- I believe is -- ultimately has the same side as we do, and the Russians do, in the Syrian civil war. I am -- I am reasonably confident that this deal will hold. I certainly am praying for it.

Now, you mentioned the '70s in America. Taylor Swift (ph) is 1989, right?


RIVERA: 1979 they had the seizure of the American embassy in Tehran.


RIVERA: So there has been this enmity for the whole lives of most of these Iranians that are chanting this thing. So they've grown up in that kind of climate. It's like us growing up in the Cold War, and I remember as a kid taking cover under my desk, because you were afraid of the Soviets would "A" bomb us and all the rest of it.

The Persians I know all want to make money and live in Southern California. And I think that...

GUILFOYLE: Don't stereotype...


BOLLING: They are beheading, they are shooting people over a...

RIVERA: They don't behead in Iran.

BOLLING: ... the Prophet Mohammad. Are you kidding me? They can yell "death to America," and we're supposed to say, "Oh, you don't really understand the interpretation." Or "we don't really mean that for America."

RIVERA; But don't you want to work things out? Don't you want to work things out?

BOLLING: ... and you'll be beheaded?

RIVERA: When has the United States -- we -- remember the Vincennes shooting down the Iranian passenger liner? There's plenty of reason that the Iranians have to have a beef against us.


RIVERA: That's the truth.

GUILFOYLE: Come on! They have committed countless acts of terror, including...

RIVERA: And haven't we...

GUILFOYLE: ... holding 52 American diplomats for 440 days.

RIVERA: You want a permanent state of war?

GUILFOYLE: I want a permanent state of awareness and common sense. Know who your enemy is.

RIVERA: That's different. That's different.

BOLLING: ... suggesting we shot down the airliner on purpose?

RIVERA: I -- of course -- why do you say to something stupid like that? That's, like, stupid. You said that to make me look stupid, and I don't like it. I don't like it.

BOLLING: When you're talking about -- when you talk about terrorists and you talk about why we...

RIVERA: But that's an anti-intellectual...

BOLLING: Did you not just bring up the accidental shooting...

RIVERA: I can't bring up that we shot down an American airliner?

BOLLING: But why bring it up?

RIVERA: Because why do you think they're -- why do you think they're pissed off?

BOLLING: It was an accident, right?

RIVERA: Of course, it was an accident.

BOLLING: Was it an accident when Iranian money was probably funneled into 19 Saudi terrorists that flew airplanes into the World Trade Center? Was that an accident?

GUILFOYLE: OK. Can I just say this? Let's talk about an awareness of our administration and what someone like our secretary of state is aware of what's going on with Iran. And he admitted, in fact, in testimony in front of Congress, that the administration knew that Iran would use the money that we were sending to them to kill Americans.

I mean, this is the problem. There is an awareness there that we provided money directly that's going to be funneled towards committing future acts against Americans in terrorism, and Israelis. That is a fact.

PERINO: OK. The other thing is...

GUILFOYLE: That's why we need to be very cautious.

RIVERA: You don't know the difference between a Shiite and a Sunni.

GUILFOYLE: I'm not talking about that.

RIVERA: We have no -- we have no hope, because all these migrants, these Sunni migrants, are leaving Syria because of ISIS cutting off their heads and killing them.

We need peace in that region. We need someone to help us broker peace in that region. I believe that the president has done something that will -- history will confirm as a positive.

GUTFELD: Let me just -- I think what you're saying is we no longer live in a world of good and evil. We live in a world of lesser evils.

RIVERA: I agree.

GUTFELD: And so we're sitting there negotiating. So what's worse, Iran or ISIS.

And you believe ISIS is worse. A lot of people believe that Iran is worse. I think they're both bad, but I'm beginning to think that ISIS is worse.

GUILFOYLE: Don't forget China. And Russia.

PERINO: And remember -- and the other thing that happened today was the -- it was announced that the Iranians themselves were allowed to get samples and give to the IAEA to talk about their Parchin and their nuclear developments there. So that was that fox guarding the henhouse problem.

But we're out of time. We can maybe talk about that tomorrow.

Ahead, Fidel Castro meets the pope this weekend but not any Cuban dissidents. They say they were arrested by the government.

Plus, what the pontiff has planned when he comes to the U.S. tomorrow. That's next.


BOLLING; In 24 hours, Pope Francis will make his first trip to America as pontiff. Right now he's in Cuba, where he delivered another mass today. Francis met with Fidel Castro yesterday after urging citizens of the communist nation to serve one another, not an ideology.

A group of Cuban dissidents were supposed to attend a papal service at Havana's cathedral but were blocked from the event by the government. Some were even arrested. Here's Father Morris with more on that.


FATHER JONATHAN MORRIS, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: The Vatican ambassador set up an informal meeting with the dissidents at the cathedral. Right? And so the dissidents knew when they were supposed to come. They came, and of course, they got stopped. They got arrested. But the good news is that that's all on camera now. The A.P. has pictures of them getting beat up and body slammed on the streets, and in the Cuban newspaper this morning, it's actually in there that they got arrested.


BOLLING: So Geraldo, the system -- I mean, the worked, right? They knew they had an opportunity to meet with the pope. They were trying to disrupt the papal service, and they got arrested. That's how it works, right?

RIVERA: Well, I'd rather address my affection for this pope. I think he's a brilliant man. I think he's a compassionate man. I think he's revitalizing the church. It's the best thing to happen to the church.

I think those who oppose him because they think his ideology is too progressive, too far left, are being short-sighted. It is the job of the head of the billion-plus-member Catholic church to be compassionate, to be inclusive.

The fact that the communist Cuban government kept the dissidents away from the pope, that's really a Cuban political problem; it's Cuba's problem. It's not the pope. The pope is trying his best to bring light, to bring -- to revitalize the church, which has been so torn apart by scandal and so forth. I just -- I love that he's coming.

I hope he gets a couple of million people in Philadelphia on Saturday, and I look forward to seeing him in Madison Square Garden.

BOLLING: A couple million? Wow. That's a big number.

GUILFOYLE: Yes, Hemmer's going to be out there. So...

BOLLING: We would want to do the same thing here, some dissidents and protesters who were trying to approach the pulpit, they would get arrested.

GUILFOYLE: Well, they would get arrested, but we would want to make sure that it wasn't somebody trying to silence, you know, political opposition or to get an audience with the pope. If there were a legitimate security threat that is involved, that's one thing.

And so I don't know. Do we know enough about it? Is enough accuracy and information coming out about it that we can make a determination as to their intent?

BOLLING: Greg, your thoughts on the pope. You can take the dissidents or you can take the controversy over...


BOLLING: ... his comments on capitalism.

GUTFELD: Yes. I don't think he's inclusive at all. This is not -- we are not looking at John Paul II. He is a pale imitation of John Paul II.

John Paul II went out and embraced freedom. Pope Francis is embracing revolutionaries. Freedom eliminates poverty around the world. Capitalism eliminates poverty around the world. Revolutionaries stifle growth and independence and cause people to die.

The pope recently blamed the refugee crisis on greed. Do you think ISIS is beheading people based on a perversion of money or a perversion of religion? It's hypocritical that he would say something like that. He recruited Naomi Kline, who is a hard-core critic of capitalism, who is a global warming extremist.

You're telling me that the pope is not an ideologue when he does that? No one in the media bats an eye. They applaud.

RIVERA: He's washing the feet of poor people.

GUTFELD: That's great; that's great. But he misunderstands why people are poor.

RIVERA: ... lepers. He's...


GUTFELD: Why are people poor?

RIVERA: ... embrace each other.

GUTFELD: Because they are -- the foot of communism and socialism comes on the poor's neck. And he doesn't get that.

RIVERA: You're making an ideological argument.

GUTFELD: He had the space -- he had the moment...

RIVERA: You're the ideologue, not the pope.

GUTFELD: ... to make political freedom in Cuba, and he didn't.

BOLLING: So all right. So Dana, let me ask you this. The pope is going to go address the joint chamber of Congress, and there are members of Congress who say, "I'm not sure I want to show up, because of what his message is." Is that a good idea or bad idea?

PERINO: Of course. Of course you go and listen to the pope. What an honor to go and see. And if you disagree, you disagree. We live in a free country, and you can express that if you want.

I think the Cuban government should be ashamed of itself, and my heart breaks for those dissidents, because maybe that was, like, the one shred of hope that they had that they were going to...

GUILFOYLE: Be heard.

PERINO: ... have a chance to be heard, and instead they were beaten.

And I think it's amazing that the United States, the pope, are just constantly giving Cuba recognition and opportunity in exchange for nothing.

My hope is that when the pope comes and he's trying to revitalize the Catholic Church, not just in Cuba but around the world, but in particular in Cuba, that Catholics pick up the slack where the Castros have left off.

BOLLING: They're asking me to go. We're going to leave it right there.

By the way, I will be going to the 9/11 Museum when the pope will arrive there, so I'll bring extra blessings, and I'll spread it around the table.

RIVERA: All right. There you go.

PERINO: Are you allowed?

BOLLING: I'm allowed.

2016 news next. Scott Walker about to drop out of the presidential race. "The Five" returns in a minute.


RIVERA: This is a FOX news alert. We are just moments away from a big announcement by Republican presidential candidate, Governor Scott Walker. FOX News has now confirmed he will be dropping out of the race.

Walker is, of course, the second candidate, after Rick Perry, to suspend his campaign. Perry did it earlier this month. Walker expected to hold a news conference minutes from now.

Dana, you have the pro. He was from Iowa. He was running first in the first-in-the-nation caucus state. His support disappeared. What happened?

PERINO: Well, there was a lot of hype about him leading up to his announcement, and then I don't know if he was able, really, to ever gain traction. And media attention certainly did not go his way.

The field is narrowing down in unexpected ways. You would have thought that some of the people that have maybe been in that second-tier debates in the bottom 5 out of 15, that some of them would have decided to go.

But I admire somebody who is decisive, and this is, I think, a good decision for Scott Walker at this time. And I admire all that he did in Wisconsin and will continue to do for the Republican Party.

RIVERA: What does it do, Greg, for all the governors? Particularly Pataki, and you have our own Mike Huckabee. You know, you have all the other governors, Jeb Bush.

GUTFELD: It's tough. It puts them on notice. It doesn't matter. Experience this time doesn't matter.

But like I said, I'm a small person. I want a small field. I think that - - I would love to see at least four or five people drop out within the next six days. Or maybe six hours. Or maybe after the show. Just drop.

GUILFOYLE: Sixty minutes.

GUTFELD: Exactly.

RIVERA: Do you have a -- do you have a diagnosis of what happened to Walker?

BOLLING: So I agree with Dana in this respect. Look what he did. He was the second to last to get in and the second to first -- second from the first to get out. He spent the least amount of time on the campaign trail, which means he likely spent the least amount of money. I've got to respect a guy for that, not sticking around, waiting and hoping, seeing what happens and spending a lot of people's money.

GUILFOYLE: He didn't make it last. You're right.

BOLLING: Yes, he got out quick.

GUILFOYLE: Wasn't a me (ph) issue.

BOLLING: By the way, there's about $45 million in super PAC money that easily could be available to someone.

PERINO: We need to find out. We need to get the rules of how you can use that.

BOLLING: Well, I think they can change it to another candidate.

GUILFOYLE: I think he's been a class act. You know, he's very impressive. I think that he has a lot to offer the Republican Party.

BOLLING: By being president.

GUILFOYLE: He'll continue to be a player.

RIVERA: He's not physically oppressive.

PERINO: No way.

RIVERA: And he was up against some big guys...

GUTFELD: Geraldo.

RIVERA: I remember Mike Dukakis was this little man who stood on a -- stood on a platform.


RIVERA: No, I just think that he kind of got swallowed up.

GUILFOYLE: I don't think it was a matter of him being, like, diminutive in size. I think that he didn't have a lot of opportunity, because he didn't get a lot of time during the debate, and he wasn't able to kind of get his moment to shine.

RIVERA: Look at Chris Christie. He wasn't called on either, and he...

PERINO: He also had moments of -- he also had moments of uncertainty in policy where he took one position and then another. And I think it was hard to galvanize.

GUILFOYLE: I think...

GUTFELD: This conversation is as boring as Scott Walker.


GUILFOYLE: That is so mean. This has turned into the meanest table ever.

PERINO: I want to go home.


RIVERA: I need a drink.

"One More Thing" is next.


GUILFOYLE: It's time now for "One More Thing" -- Ms. Dana.

PERINO: All right. Well, FOX News had some terrible news over the weekend. You know Mary Katherine Ham. She is a contributor at FOX News, a great friend of ours. That's her husband, Jake Brewer.

Unfortunately, on Saturday, at just 34 years old, while he was in a charity bike ride for a friend of his that had cancer, his bike went out of control, hit an oncoming car, and he was killed instantly.

Mary Katherine, you can see here on "The O'Reilly Factor" and other shows, she is pregnant with their second child. And they also have a 2-year-old named Georgia. She posted a lot of pictures. We have a few of them here. He looks like such a fun guy. He worked at the White House Office of Science and Technology. President Obama put out a wonderful statement about him.

And Guy Benson set up a GoFundMe site for the education of the couple's two children. If you go to "The Five's" Facebook page, you can find details for that. She's going to need all of our support, and she certainly has our thoughts and prayers. To you, Mary Katherine.

GUILFOYLE: Yes, definitely part of the FOX family, and our hearts and prayers go out to her. God bless her.

And another news story, unfortunately, of someone passing away. Jackie Collins died after a six-and-a-half-year battle with breast cancer. It's remarkable that she was able to live so long with Stage 4 breast cancer. It shows the advancements we've made, but there's still much work to be done. She had 30 bestsellers, 500 million books sold worldwide, and of course, Geraldo, you knew her and had interviewed her.

RIVERA: She -- of course, and you know, she characterized that whole genre. She was wonderful.

GUILFOYLE: Hollywood wives, the -- and the whole deal.

RIVERA: It was wonderful. Should I...?

GUILFOYLE: Well, she will be missed. It's actually Eric's turn.


BOLLING: And hearts and prayers and thoughts for -- for both of those stories. A little bit of a hard turn here, going from that to a little bit of a funny thing. Taran Killam, who's the "SNL" star. has been tapped to portray or to impersonate Donald Trump in the upcoming season of "Saturday Night Live." October 3, they kick that off.

You know you've made it when you're that. And also you know you really made it when you're also the subject of a "South Park" episode. Watch.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My friends, I know that, like me, you are fed up with the illegal immigrant situation. Now, I don't know about government policy, but when it comes to undocumented immigrants, my policy is (EXPLETIVE DELETED) them all to death!


BOLLING: Like I said, rough turn. Sorry.

Greg, all yours.

GUTFELD: All right. I got a video on Prager University. Look at that. I've got an article on Breitbart today. Look at that.

And let's look at this. Flip over to the thingie-thing. All right. Never mind.


GUTFELD: I hate these people!


GUTFELD: Ay, yi, yi. You know who I hate? I hate click baiters. You ever go on a website, and it says -- and the headline is "A child walks into a parent's room and discovers they've doing this." And you click on it, and they've been sleeping.

Or "A police officer pulls over a speeding truck and you'll never guess who was driving." And you click on it. It's a truck driver.

"A dog walks by a pet store, and what happens next?" And you click on it. He barked.

This is click baiting. I'm tired of it. You understand, Geraldo?

RIVERA: I got it. I got it.

GUILFOYLE: Why do you keep falling for it?

GUTFELD: Stop! Quit writing those headlines because you get me every time.

BOLLING: I swear I heard Governor Chris Christie out was the headline.

RIVERA: This weekend, I did my annual ride up my boat to West Point to watch an Army football game. Went in my pal Alton Wilson's boat, 70 knots, just flying up the beautiful Hudson Valley.

Once we got there, that's my brother, Craig in the foreground. That's Colonel Greg Gaston (ph) in the middle. He's the only double amputee to actually command an Army garrison.

And there I was with the Corps of Cadets. I love these guys. They're our future leaders. I led them in their traditional cheer called the rocket. This is absolutely proof positive that Puerto Ricans can't dance. Look.

GUILFOYLE: No. Puerto Ricans can dance.

RIVERA: Oh, you don't have the video? Oh, man.

GUILFOYLE: That's it for us. Never miss an episode of "The Five."

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