Has the Obama administration started a war against police?

'The Five' debate criticism following murder of Texas deputy amid anti-cop rhetoric


This is a rush transcript from "The Five," August 31, 2015. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

KIMBERLY GUILFOYLE, CO-HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Kimberly Guilfoyle along with Juan Williams, Eric Bolling, Dana Perino and Tom Shillue. It's 5 o'clock in New York City and this is "The Five."

The suspected killer of a sheriff's deputy in Texas appeared in court today for the first time. Shannon Miles has been charged with capital murder and he is being held without bond. Prosecutor says Miles shot Darren Goforth in the back of the head, Friday night outside of Houston while the deputy was pumping gas. He allegedly fired a total of 15 times. Investigators have not determined the motive, but the sheriff of Harris County is partially blaming the dangerous rhetoric being spewed by anti-police protesters across the country.


RON HICKMAN, HARRIS COUNTY, TEXAS SHERIFF: Our system of justice absolutely requires law enforcement be present, to protect our community. So at any point where the rhetoric ramps up to the point where calculated, cold- blooded assassination of police officers happen, this rhetoric has gotten out of control. We've heard black lives matter, all lives matter. Well, cops' lives matter too. So why we just drop the qualifier and just say lives matter.


GUILFOYLE: Here's some of the rhetoric, Sheriff Hickman is referring to. Some Black Lives Matter protesters chanted this over the weekend.


CROWD: Fry them like bacon! Pigs in a blanket, fry them like bacon! Pigs in a blanket, fry them like bacon! Pigs in a blanket.


GUILFOYLE: Sheriff David Clarke of Milwaukee is irate. He accuses the Obama administration of starting this war against police.


DAVID CLARKE, MILWAUKEE COUNTY, WISCONSIN SHERIFF: I am too pissed off tonight to be too diplomatic about what's going on, and I'm not gonna stick by it and stand about it. I said last December, the war had been declared on the American police officer led by some high-profile people, one of them coming out of the White House, one of them coming out of the United States Department of Justice, and it's open season right now, there's no doubt about it.


GUILFOYLE: Strong words, but the rhetoric can be backed up by these recent protests, the very divisive and dangerous rhetoric that we're hearing from these protesters.

ERIC BOLLING, CO-HOST: So there are two things from the weekend, there are just ringing truth. Actually, it's up until this afternoon. Number one was the sound of those chants. Pigs in a blanket, fry them like bacon, over and over and over again. And then the other sound, Kimberly, if you listen to that Miles -- chant of Miles in the courtroom, the shackles on his feet, the clanging of his shackles, a silent courtroom with all the cops lining the wall. Those two sounds rang through and you wonder did the first thing have anything to do with the next, and then you look at what happened. The prosecutor described the crime. Shannon miles walked up to a cop who was filling his gas tank facing away, no confrontation, and pumped 15 bullets into a guy. There's absolutely no reason for it to happen, other than, they want to make a.

GUILFOYLE: Well, it was an execution. If you want to refer to it accurately, he shot him.


GUILFOYLE: Then went over and stood over him and continue to shoot him. He was trying to defend himself.

BOLLING: What Sheriff Hickman says that there -- whatever happened over the weekend with the Black Lives Matter group, probably had some effect on what happened that Friday night.

GUILFOYLE: Dana, how do you see it?

DANA PERINO, CO-HOST: Well, the one of the first questions I had been had Shannon miles had some sort of interaction with the officer and turns out that is not true. He has, and he did have a criminal background, but nothing in relationship to this officer. It is a curious thing about the White House's decision making on this. I'm always wondered about how they make decisions on what sort of local crimes they're going to talk about. Sometimes they come out right away, even before you have all the information, the president makes the big statement. On something like this, they're silent. And you do have to wonder at some point, does the White House not realize that there is this anxiety amongst the police, perhaps a rift between the communities and the police officers. And then the growing movement seems a very powerful movement of black lives matter and will they decide to say something. I think that they should, but seems to me that they are trying to hold back as long as possible.

GUILFOYLE: All right. Hi, Tom.

TOM SHILLUE, HOST, "RED EYE": Hi. I don't think Sheriff Hickman went far enough. I mean, I'm with Sheriff Clarke.


SHILLUE: I think it's, shut it down time. I think it is ridiculous.


SHILLUE: And I think that this is criminal stuff. These organizations, it's not a civil rights movement, call it what it is, it's a lie from the beginning. And these protest -- I'm going to put a lot of responsibility on it. Just a little bit, it contributed to -- this is a violent group. I think it is time to shut them down and the federal government is not going to do it. I think the states -- the state governors should go in and when there are protests, shut them down. People are drunk on rights in this country. These people are violent. It's horrible and I think they should go in there and do whatever they have to. I don't know, this (inaudible) laws or something. I mean this is like a criminal organization. I think it is time to arrest these leaders because they're threatening people and they're causing violence.

GUILFOYLE: Right. And at a certain point its worse, to me, it seems than -- you know, shouting fire in a crowded theater, which is one of the constitutional law cases that we talk about. But I know, Juan, you seem utterly confused because you have a very quizzical look on your face.

JUAN WILLIAMS, CO-HOST: I am. I'm just surprised by so many levels. I -- first of all, I don't understand what Sheriff Clarke of Milwaukee is talking about. He never said why he would make this charge against the justice department. I don't know if he's talking about Eric Holder. I don't know he is talking Loretta Lynch. He is making this charge against the White House for inspiring this. You know, I can't tell you the numbers of people who are not only in the White House, but in terms of senior black leadership in Congress and elsewhere, don't want anything to do with black lives matter. They think they are crazy people. And you see this in the polls today.

GUILFOYLE: And what are they?

WILLIAMS: Wait a second, let me finish my point. In the polls today, 2/3 of black Americans, 2/3 says that the saying should be all lives matter, 2/3. It's overwhelming in terms of white Americans. I think that's why I'm here for you at the table is you guys see this as somehow tied to the shooting in Houston. And I'm telling you, most people review -- view the Black Lives Matter movement as juvenile, ineffective. This weekend, they were throwing stuff, not only at Bernie Sanders, but at the Democratic National Committee and saying.

BOLLING: Juan, it's a growing.

WILLIAMS: Change will not happen through the political system.

BOLLING: It's a growing movement. They're getting bigger and bigger. They're getting more aggressive. They're getting more -- the rhetoric, they are stepping up the rhetoric.

GUILFOYLE: Their thoughts.

BOLLING: Fry them like bacon? Come on, why.

WILLIAMS: What if people say something outrageous things?


BOLLING: And I would disagree with Tom. I think people have the right to protest.


BOLLING: And they.

WILLIAMS: Absolutely.

BOLLING: Look at the Westboro Baptist Church, right?

WILLIAMS: Yeah, yeah.

BOLLING: They are as --

WILLIAMS: Despicable.

BOLLING: As disgusting and despicable as they come, but they have a right to do it. However, when people are using what they are saying and -- listen, we need to hear what Shannon Miles said. Why did Shannon Miles decide to execute that cop? Why?

WILLIAMS: Well, what the police in Houston said was that they assume they're acting on the basis of this point that he was shot because he was in uniform. He was a cop. And as Dana said.

BOLLING: Rhetoric.

WILLIAMS: This guy.

BOLLING: Is this rhetoric stepping out violence.

WILLIAMS: This guy is not.

BOLLING: Is the rhetoric of black lives mater, stepping up the violence?

WILLIAMS: Just a moment. This guy is not some right to leader, Tom. This guy is a rank criminal with a long record of criminal behavior.

SHILLUE: I know. Well, that's what I'm saying. I mean, they are sullying the good name of the civil rights movement. It's not a civil rights movement.

WILLIAMS: High-five.

SHILLUE: And I think, why not. If you can't shut down cities, I think Ferguson is not a protest. It is a mob, and they should shut it down.

BOLLING: You're hitting on something. And Juan, the black leaders in the country should step up and say, you know what? Stop black lives matter.

WILLIAMS: I couldn't.

BOLLING: They invented this stupid group.

WILLIAMS: So let me just.

BOLLING: If all lives matter, blue lives matter, white lives matter.

WILLIAMS: I agree, but you know.

BOLLING: All lives matter. We'll -- how many people have you spoken to? Black leaders, Leo Terrell, good example, right. Do black lives matter? Yes, black lives matter. Do white lives matter? Yes, but when you say white lives matter, it removes -- it changes the debate. It is disfocusing (ph) the debate.

WILLIAMS: That's the argument coming from the Black Lives Matter people.

BOLLING: But the black community, the Leaders like yourself. The sharp -- should be out there and for saying, no more. Black lives matter is a based on a false narrative that never really happened.

WILLIAMS: No. Let me tell you what.

BOLLING: It should be.

GUILFOYLE: Well, that's what David Clarke is calling for.

BOLLING: But right.

GUILFOYLE: He's calling for that name to be eradicated.

BOLLING: And you, leaders, should say we're not part of that movement.

WILLIAMS: Well, listen. I must gonna tell you a short story, which is that over the weekend in Washington, D.C. where I live. The mayor was coming out and saying you know we have this weekend, and this is not just in Washington, but all of the country, an explosion of black on black crime high spikes in terms of murders in the cities. And she's saying we're going to do something more. We're going to add more cops et cetera. Black Lives Matters shows up, shouts down the mayor, that's a black mayor. And the mayor says I'm not going to be intimidated by you. So I -- this is no, you know, I sometimes think you guys are hearing it at one way, I'm hearing another way. You think that there is some kind of racial war about to start. I don't think that's it.

BOLLING: What do you hear?

WILLIAMS: What I hear is that there are a bunch of very frustrated, and I think impotent, Black Lives Matters leaders. They don't have an effective group and they don't know how to create change. And all they're doing is lashing out. And by the way, not lashing out at republicans, not lashing out at white leaders, lashing out principally at blacks, at black leaders.

PERINO: And in fact, over the weekend, they actually rejected the DNC's.


PERINO: Resolution -- their passed resolution at the DNC meeting and the Black Lives Matter rejected it. But Juan, let me ask you, then who -- which is they want then?

WILLIAMS: Well, that's a good point.

PERINO: What's the request?

WILLIAMS: Yeah, I'm with you, Dana. I mean -- and by the way, guess what, I know she's not popular to this table, but that's what Hillary Clinton said.

PERINO: Well she did, actually.

WILLIAMS: When she was confronted. What do you guys want? And they said we just want to know that your heart is in the right place.


WILLIAMS: And she said you could fill Yankees Stadium with hearts. Tell us what's your agenda? What's your plan? And they said that was evidence that she wasn't sincere. That's how crazy these folks are.

GUILFOYLE: Well, that's what their agenda is. It's OK to go ahead and kill cops.

WILLIAMS: No. Nobody said that.

GUILFOYLE: The cops -- oh, really?

WILLIAMS: They never said that.

GUILFOYLE: Pigs in a blanket, fry them like bacon.

WILLIAMS: That's language.

GUILFOYLE: Is that unclear to you?

WILLIAMS: What shooting?

GUILFOYLE: Those are their words.

WILLIAMS: OK. If you feel that way, I don't.

GUILFOYLE: That is their message.

WILLIAMS: I saw this empty-handed.

GUILFOYLE: If you want to water it down and dilute it because it makes you feel more comfortable.

WILLIAMS: I don't feel comfortable.

GUILFOYLE: That's on you.

WILLIAMS: No, but honestly what I'm talking.

GUILFOYLE: I'm talking about the facts. That is the honest truth.

WILLIAMS: Well, I tell you that.

GUILFOYLE: They act like that, they are criminals.

WILLIAMS: Let me just say.

GUILFOYLE: And they're calling for the murder of hardworking police officers.

WILLIAMS: I don't believe that.

GUILFOYLE: What did they do to them? They -- everybody need cops.


GUILFOYLE: Everybody needs cops in their communities.

WILLIAMS: Correct.

GUILFOYLE: So their kids can play in parks.

WILLIAMS: Absolutely right.

GUILFOYLE: So you can walk down to the streets. You can go safely to school.


GUILFOYLE: So people can get to work. Earn a living to support their family. How dare they compromise everybody else's safety?

WILLIAMS: They're not --

GUILFOYLE: They are.

WILLIAMS: They didn't call for everybody to execute cops.

GUILFOYLE: They are.

WILLIAMS: I have been news to me.


WILLIAMS: But I know they don't like cops. And do they have a legitimate argument about what happened with Ferguson, Staten Island, Baltimore, in Houston was saying everybody, yes, but this is not -- their movement seems to me to be empty-headed and without purpose and then driven.

BOLLING: Could. And more people like you should be out there in force saying.

WILLIAMS: I think people aren't saying.

GUILFOYLE: Calling to shut it down.

BOLLING: Not necessary shut it down, but calling for what they are, as Dana points out, with no purpose, with no goal and no certainly, no productive goal. The more black leaders that do that then eventually, they'll be reduced to. Oh, it's those Westboro Baptist types over there, who were just making a lot of noise, not really affecting any change at all.

GUILFOYLE: Yeah, but the people that show up to those protests and side with that movement and with their rhetoric and with their violence and the things that they suggest and call for, then you know better than they are.


GUILFOYLE: Like stand for something. Choose to be a part of a different group that is respectable, that is peaceful that honors the values and the ideology of the civil rights movement that did a tremendous amount in this country. Show some respect for yourself and for those you love.

SHILLUE: And it's not just -- they are calling for violence. They are subduing with -- you know the pigs in the blanket. They are calling for violence, but even when they aren't, they're calling for people to impede with the police, wherever they see them. I see this on Facebook. They say get in there and stop them when they're working, and that causes danger. Police die when that happens.


SHILLUE: Not just people to say executed them.

PERINO: I wanted to bring that up because we are talking about as we want black leaders to stand up and say something. And I actually think a lot of this is being fueled, not by the spoken word. It's on social media and particular on Twitter, where law enforcement has already enough that they have to keep track of. It's very difficult to keep track of social media as well. And there's a whole -- it's like pouring fuel on the fire. And everybody's got a phone. Everybody has access to it. And so there's actually -- there's -- if there is something to be said about speaking from a pulpit or speaking on television, but it's actually in the social media world where it needs to be handled better.

BOLLING: Can I throw one another stand (ph) out there? Juan, you talk about Ferguson, you talk about Baltimore, you talk about Houston, you named three, right? There are 10 dead law -- I'm sorry, seven dead law enforcement officers in the last 10 days.

PERINO: Right.

BOLLING: Seven dead in the last 10 days.

WILLIAMS: I didn't realize that.

BOLLING: So if the incident is of law enforcement officers, getting executed, getting killed, census crimes, census murders is increasing, there are black leaders that have to step up and say this is having the wrong effect. The effect isn't to kill law enforcement, the effect is create a sense of understanding of what's going on in communities where they feel that they're being -- blacks are being mistreated.

WILLIAMS: No. I think it is important that everybody say that cops lives matter and cops protect us all.

BOLLING: But they won't say that.

WILLIAMS: But I -- no. I'm saying.

GUILFOYLE: But Juan, who say this?

WILLIAMS: But I'm just saying it to you right here. But I'm also saying that it's also legitimate for people to protest that they feel that police are behaving in an excessively violent matter, but this Black Live Matter movement -- I mean, you know even for people who want to be supportive, you guys, your -- it's a shame what you are doing here.

GUILFOYLE: Right. Thank you, Juan for that. I appreciate it. That has to themselves that the amount of blood spilled quenched your thirst yet?

We are just a few hours away from the State Department of a brand new batch of Hillary Clinton's e-mails. Did any of them contain classified material? Dana has the information for us and it's straight ahead.


PERINO: Tonight, the State Department is expected to release a new batch of Hillary Clinton's e-mails. Around 7,000 pages worth, as the largest amount so far. Clinton has repeatedly denied sending or receiving classified material, but this new release will include around 150 more messages with classified redactions. The State Department says they were classified after the fact, but won't answer whether any laws may have been broken.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you say in that podium, categorically, that Secretary Clinton followed the rules and the law?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm just not gonna answer that question. It's not our goal. It's not our function in this regard in releasing these e-mails.


PERINO: The public skepticism of Hillary is growing. Her poll numbers are sliding in Iowa, the most important state of all states that is going to vote. Bernie Sanders now only trails her by seven points there. And some pundits are drawing parallels to her unsuccessful campaign in 2008.


JOHN HEILEMANN, JOURNALIST: She has lost a third of her support since May. She is on a trajectory that's dramatically downward. You know, if you think back to four years ago or eight years ago, she was leading in Iowa by six or seven points over John Edwards around this time. And a few more points over Barack Obama this time.


HEILEMANN: So it's -- you -- again, the dynamics are strikingly similar to what was going on than in that state, in that cycle.


PERINO: Eric, her team says that they never expected a coronation. And even though she's had a drop-off of a third of her support from May to Labor Day, they seem to say that they're not worried. Do you believe them?

BOLLING: I do. And here's why, if you at that poll, and look, I'm the first one -- I would love to see a Joe Biden get in this race. I think from so many reasons I like him, I think it would be fun. I think it would be good, it would be interesting, it would be great TV. I think the American people deserve it and the democrats deserve to hear another voice outside of Hillary Clinton and a socialist, it would be great.

PERINO: Right.

GUILFOYLE: But if you look at the number, the 14 percent that he garners right now. If you throw that back up into Hillary which feasibly, you probably would, I mean you probably gonna choose as a democrats, I'm guessing between Hillary or Joe Biden. She's back up to 51 percent and that's all what she lost during that time. That said, love to see a Biden, and I think this would be fun, fun race to watch.

PERINO: One thing I noticed -- Juan, is that so -- in 2008, she -- well, 2007, that she was leading up to the primary in Iowa, or the caucus, she had about 29 percent approval. And she is about there now. So even after all of this time, it seems to me that Iowans have made up their minds about Hillary Clinton and they are willing to look around.

WILLIAMS: Oh yeah, and you know what I -- I mean, going back to that period, she just was not good at retail politics. That's now conventional wisdom, but I was on the ground and it was really evident, I'm not comfortable. So I think they have tried to polish her campaigning skills and get her out, get her out early. And people say that she is doing well, but it's just been lost in all of the noise about the foundation and the e- mails. Now what's interesting is I saw in the polling, that even as her numbers are dropping, democrats are staying it's not connected specifically to the e-mails, which makes you think, well, then what is it? So is it Joe Biden or the prospect of Biden? Or is it that they say Bernie Sanders is authentic and the people just want non-traditional politician.


PERINO: Does it come down to likeability and these issues of them were last week that were (inaudible) what where the most associate with Hilary Clinton. And the number one word was liar.

GUILFOYLE: How do you overcome that? That's like a really bad (inaudible). There's like nowhere to go, it's just liar. You know where.


GUILFOYLE: I mean there's a problem.

PERINO: Error.

GUILFOYLE: Yeah. She's going to figure it out by time we finish this block.


GUILFOYLE: Yeah, but where do you go from that? I mean, if you're her campaign staff, you're like silent and screaming inside. You like, oh, I can just -- one moment. You addressed her.


GUILFOYLE: And you go then you like -- and then you come back out.


GUILFOYLE: I mean you fix your resume.

PERINO: Silent scream.

GUILFOYLE: And you go, hey, Joe, just wanted to reach out and say I've been thinking about you lately to try and get the job with (inaudible).

PERINO: You can make sure keep that door -- open the door.

GUILFOYLE: Yes, that's happen.

PERINO: Juan, something interesting I want to ask you about. So he said that her team is trying to make her more polished.


PERINO: Is that the problem?

SHILLUE: I wrote it down.

PERINO: I wondered if you would.

SHILLUE: Polishing.

PERINO: Something.

SHILLUE: I said Juan, why does she need polishing? When did she tarnish? She has not been away from politics for 40 years. When did the -- do you know, why do you need polishing? I don't understand.

GUILFOYLE: Are we talking about.

PERINO: Polishing the problems.


SHILLUE: I mean, they can keep polishing, but it's the same metal. I mean, you're gonna -- you know, it seems you're wearing it away. She is what she is, right? You can't polish that.

PERINO: And that might be good enough, right Eric?

BOLLING: Did you notice the change in rhetoric over the last couple of days? I would -- besides the fact that day she called -- she likened the GOP to terrorists, the couple of days, earlier in the week. And Friday, on Friday, she compared the GOP's immigration policy to rounding up people in boxcars. Now, there's only one boxcar reference that comes to mind amongst most people. It will that the Nazi reference. Is she stepping it up? Is she trying to like, I don't know, take a cue from Donald Trump in raising the rhetoric?

WILLIAMS: Well, I think which is not. She also said the extremist thing about GOP candidates stand on abortion and Planned Parenthood. So I think what she has done is go after republicans, and I think that's probably the strategy. Go after.

GUILFOYLE: you know, Juan?

WILLIAMS: Attack the republicans and.

GUILFOYLE: You know, Juan.

WILLIAMS: So people don't pay attention to her problem. By the way, arguably, Donald Trump is a great problem to her because he's taking -- of all and people might be even more focused on her lack of polish, Mr. Shillue.


PERINO: Kimberly.

SHILLUE: Last week with the -- when she was sitting at the republicans.

PERINO: Sitting though (ph)?

SHILLUE: Yeah, and the thing about (inaudible) and then, one of her advisers said, well, at least we're not talking about the e-mails, so that's the.


WILLIAMS: Yeah, there it is.

SHILLUE: That's the bright side?

WILLIAMS: Yeah, there you go.

GUILFOYLE: Right. Well, that's the thing. I mean, the more trouble she gets in, the guiltier she is. The more she drops in the polls. And then she like ups the ante on the rhetoric and that's like, oh, you guys, them over there? Terrorists, OK? This is a conspiracy. They're after me. They're the bad guys to try and deflect. What else can she do? Because if we put, you know the light on her, it's not looking good.

PERINO: They should invite us over to Brooklyn, where we can just poke holes in all of their arguments. And then, you know, we could keep it off the record.

GUILFOYLE: And that (inaudible).

PERINO: Out of the goodness of our hearts.


SHILLUE: It's (inaudible).

PERINO: All right, before we go, a programming note. Don't miss The Five on Wednesday night, Vice President Cheney and his daughter Liz. They're going to be right here. They just authored a new book called, Exceptional: Why the World Needs a Powerful America. So please tune in for that.

And ahead, some more 2016 developments. Then later, some 2020 election news, just as right, Kanye West says he's going to run the next time around, that strange announcement speech, coming up.


WILLIAMS: What kind of message does this new poll send to the political establishment? Outsiders, Donald Trump, outsider, Ben Carson, they're at the top of the GOP pack in Iowa where the first nomination contest takes place. Carson made a big jump there trailing Trump now by only five points, both don't have political pedigree. One big question, as this race moving forward will republican voters remain behind Trump, now that he's been using similar language to President Obama on taxes?


DONALD TRUMP, R-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I want to see lower taxes, and I'm going to make a determination. But on some people, they're not doing their fair share. These hedge fund guys, I hate to say, many are friends of mine, most of them support Hillary Clinton and Jeb Bush, just so you understand. They're not supporting me because I told them I don't want your money, but the hedge fund guys have to pay up.


WILLIAMS: He's talking to you, Eric Bolling.

BOLLING: No, not me. That never hedge fund guy. But I will tell you -- so he's pinpointing one small group of taxpayers and its brilliant strategy, the problem is I'm not sure he can physically do that. If he can take one industry and say you're going to pay higher taxes, then knock yourself out. He'd probably get a lot of votes. What's really interesting about the poll that -- it's not -- Trump and Carson couldn't be further -- couldn't more polar opposites, right?


WILLIAMS: I agree.

BOLLING: One is bombastic. He is why - he says what's come to his mind. And the other one is very thought -- contemplative thought involved in everything he says. There are complete opposites with the exception of one thing -- they're both Washington, D.C., outsiders. And that seems to be -- whatever you call it, the Summer of Trump. It might be the summer of non- D.C. or outside.

GUILFOYLE: They're opposites on personality.

BOLLING: Opposites on personality, but they have that one common.

GUILFOYLE: Their message and the ideology I don't think is so disparate.

WILLIAMS: What is their ideology? I don't -- I'm not sure I know.

SHILLUE: Carson is nice. That's it. They're against the establishment, but they want someone nice. That's who supports Carson.

WILLIAMS: Yes. This is -- so let's go inside my...

GUILFOYLE: I think that's really selling him short as a candidate of what he has to offer.

SHILLUE: I think that people love -- you know, the people who like Trump, they like the brash. They like the give them hell. But for people who that's too much for them, they still want an outsider. So they go to Ben Carson.

BOLING: If they're No. 1 and two in Iowa, the point is that they're No. 1 and 2 in Iowa. In one poll -- had them tied. And the establishment Washington players of Scott Walker and Jeb Bush, somebody else, Christie, they're going down.

WILLIAMS: Yes, they're going down. So I was going to say, let's go inside my brain and talk to Dana Perino. Dana, how do you make...

PERINO: If I were inside your brain, you would be very different.

WILLIAMS: I would be different. I would be better behaved. But -- but Dana...

GUILFOYLE: Oh, that's a fact.

WILLIAMS: ... what do you think politically is going on here, and how does either Carson or Trump distinguish themselves from the other?

PERINO: Well, first of all, I think that both of them are over-performing and the rest are underperforming. OK, and so you get into Labor Day where people come back from school -- go back to school, go back to work, and that's when people start to get serious.

Tomorrow, we are five months from the first vote that will be cast in Iowa in the caucus there, so that's why these polls matter. I also think that 71 percent of the country today in the Monmouth poll, I believe, said that the country is the wrong track. Now you have had about a decade of a vast majority of Americans believing that we are on the wrong track. Therefore, I think that anybody who is seen outside of traditional politics is probably going to do better.

But the problem for those who are underperforming is that they are actually bound by reality and practicalities and their experiences. And they know what it's going to take. Because you can't just tax the hedge fund guys.  That would be a broader group. That might be perfectly fine; it might be acceptable. You might be able to get that passed. I doubt it, but you might be able to do so. But if you're bound by realities, then, yes, campaigning is harder.

WILLIAMS: By the way, they are tied. Carson and Trump are tied right now at 23 percent in the Monmouth poll.

Kimberly, I just want to ask you: Inside one of these polls, some interesting numbers. Here we go. Carson has an 11 percentage point advantage over Trump among seniors, 7 percentage point advantage over Trump among Christian conservatives. Trump -- Carson is doing better than Trump among women. But Trump is doing better than Carson among men. What does this -- all this mean?

GUILFOYLE: To me, it actually makes sense when you think about the demographic and where those particular groups usually invest their votes. Right? So people are attracted -- men are attracted to Trump because of his business acumen, his savvy, some of his brash style and ideas. So they feel that that's, like, the masculine gravitation going that way.

Women or the elderly, they like Ben Carson. They feel safe with him. They feel that he's a good choice: that he's smart; that he's measured; that he's a learned man. And when you look at it, he has some great ideas about taxes, about limited government. I mean, he's somebody who has great ideas about education, as well. He has very traditional values. There's a tremendous amount there.

Is there a big history of being a political insider? No, there is not.  But there's other people that are considered political, you know, outsiders that aren't doing as well as he's doing but have been in the game and do have the infrastructure set up.

What is going to matter in the end is who's going to be able to get their people out, especially in like Iowa, in the caucuses...

WILLIAMS: That's true.

GUILFOYLE: ... to be able to turn out the vote. Because you may have the numbers in the polls.

WILLIAMS: You know what? That's -- this weekend...

GUILFOYLE: Unless you're out there turning out the vote, it's a problem.

WILLIAMS: ... I was hearing that from political pros who were talking to me about, you know, a lot of Trump supporters, are they really Republican voters? We're going to find out.

Anyway, ahead, another year, another raunchy Video Music Awards show on MTV. What Miley Cyrus is doing to make news this year. That's going to come from Eric. Plus, other low lights from the night, last night that is, next.


BOLLING: Welcome back. And after two weeks of hiatus, it's back, time for...


GRAPHIC: Fastest 7


BOLLING: ... "The Fastest Seven Minutes on Television." Three entertaining stories -- get it -- seven energetic minutes, one enigmatic host.

First up, last night, MTV delivered their annual VMA awards. Year after year, the show has gotten raunchier and raunchier. Now, look, I'm no prude. I have a 17-year-old. I'm pretty open-minded as a dad. But last night, I watched, and I think I'm done.

PERINO: Really?

BOLLING: Miley Cyrus trying way too hard to be outrageous. Watch.


MILEY CYRUS, SINGER: All right. On the count of three, everyone is going to stay, "Marijuana." One, two, three. Marijuana.




CYRUS: I'm having a moment. I'm kind of freaking out. So the most followed person on Instagram is Kim Kardashian, and I got her in my selfie!  I got Kim Kardashian in my selfie, people.

(singing): I love pot, I love peace, I don't give a (EXPLETIVE DELETED).


BOLLING: Now K.G., even normally accepting Salon...

GUILFOYLE: I was trying to look away. Notice I was, like, looking everywhere.

BOLLING: K.G., when Salon calls you an embarrassment, that's not good.

GUILFOYLE: I didn't like anything about it, to be honest with you. And then there was the bizarre -- you're going to get to it.

BOLLING: No, I'm not. You can bring it up.

GUILFOYLE: No, I'm not talking about that.

BOLLING: We're not allowed to talk about it. Not that, Eric. Kanye.

BOLLING: Oh, I got you. I got you. We'll get to that.

Juan, crazier and crazier. What they did say, though, that the ratings came out, I believe the preliminary ratings -- I could be wrong -- but between 12- and 34-year-olds, there was -- it was the most watched event on cable television, in that age group.

WILLIAMS: Well, what does that say? I don't know. I don't get it. I mean, to me, it's all about will something terrible happen; will we have an equipment failure; will somebody curse; will somebody act badly; or, you know, will Kanye be mean to Taylor Swift? It seems to me like schoolyard.  That's what it seems to me. Less than entertainment. Was there any great entertainment?

BOLLING: Well, there were some really good performances. I happen to like some of the music, so there were some fantastic performances. Dana, crazier and crazier.

PERINO: Crazier and crazier. But you know, I do love that Taylor Swift.  She's a gem.

GUILFOYLE: Lovely. Can she have her own show?

PERINO: Smart, fabulous, charming.


PERINO: I think she's great. She should be the host.

GUILFOYLE: She should have her own awards show.

PERINO: If she were the host, I would have stayed up.

BOLLING: So here's the thing about the host. Miley Cyrus gets -- you know, wants to be the host. In fact, she signs off saying, "I'll see you next year." Tom, the ratings, the total ratings, though, were down from last year, so maybe we won't see her next year.

SHILLUE: Well, I mean, I think -- I am a defender of Miley Cyrus. I think she's -- look, she was a child star. You know how big she was? She was as big...

PERINO: As Hannah Montana.

SHILLUE: ... as (UNINTELLIGIBLE) when she was 13 years old, OK? Now, child stars don't do well. I think she's doing fairly well in comparison to the other child stars. As long as you're not robbing a liquor store, like, on crack, you're above the bar, so she's doing OK.

BOLLING: I don't know. Maybe you should watch a little more of that performance last night. Maybe they're on the same level.

Somewhere in the middle of the mess last night, Kanye West went on a long- winded and winding road rant, topped off by this announcement.


KANYE WEST, MUSICIAN: I'm confident. I believe in myself. We the millennials, bro. We're not going to control our kids with brands. We're not going to teach low self-esteem and hate to our kids. Because it ain't about me. It's about ideas, bro. New ideas. People with ideas. People who believe in truth. And yes, as you probably could have guessed by this moment, I have decided in 2020 to run for president.


BOLLING: Kanye for president? Yeezus. Juan?

WILLIAMS: You know, was that -- was he -- was he mocking Trump?

BOLLING: No, he...

PERINO: I think he's serious.

BOLLING: I think he's serious.

WILLIAMS: I think when he was going on about, "I've got great ideas and I'm confident, and I know what I'm" -- I think he was -- I think he was making fun of Trump.

GUILFOYLE: No, no, no, no, no, he thinks he's that awesome.


PERINO: I think it's hilarious when he says that they're not going to control their kids with brands. Because isn't their whole thing about commercialization?

SHILLUE: Well, he's already got that on a T-shirt in his merch store.  That saying.

PERINO: That would be funny.

BOLLING: Now, K.G., do you want to -- do you want to jump in on Kanye 2020?

GUILFOYLE: This is why it's good that I have the ability to have my dual citizenship in Ireland.

BOLLING: Do you have that?

GUILFOYLE: Yes. Bye, people!

BOLLING: I never realized.

WILLIAMS: You're leaving? You're leaving?

GUILFOYLE: You must be kidding.

WILLIAMS: You're leaving?

GUILFOYLE: There's only so much mess I can clean up.

SHILLUE: This could make a great anti-drug ad. He admitted to smoking pot before doing it.


SHILLUE: Forget the brain on drugs. This is your brain -- this is the English language on one of Kanye's...

BOLLING: All right. Finally. Remember, we told you about Hulk Hogan and his race-fueled rant on a sex tape. The former wrestler tried to explain himself on "Good Morning America" this morning. We report; you decide.


HULK HOGAN, FORMER PROFESSIONAL WRESTLER: I'm not a racist. I never should have said what I said. Where I grew up was south Tampa. And it was a really rough neighborhood, very low-income. And all my friends, we greeted each other saying that word. The word was just thrown around like it was nothing.

Please forgive me. I'm a nice guy. I'm not the Hulk that rips his shirt off and bang, bang, bang, slams giants. You know, I'm Terry Bollea. I'm just a normal man.


BOLLING: What did you say?

PERINO: I call him the Incredulous Hulk. As in he didn't know that this was actually going to be a problem.

But I do admire him for going -- going on air on a network program to apologize. It's not easy.

BOLLING: Yes. Tommy, the WWE had pulled some of his -- pulled his videos and some of merchandise. Is this enough to get him back in their good graces?

SHILLUE: Absolutely. To me, it's what? They released something he didn't, you know -- it's -- people say things in private, and we should not hold private speech to the same level as public speech. He -- I think he comported himself with a great deal of dignity throughout his life, and we should let him...

PERINO: As a wrestler?

SHILLUE: Yes, I mean, I think he's been a -- you know, ever since I've been a kid, he's been -- the guy hasn't changed. Look at him. He looks the same as he did back in, like, '85. He's fantastic.


GUILFOYLE: Yes, I mean, listen, I don't know enough about, you know, this guy back in the day. Wrestling stuff, it's interesting. But he's got a few situations right now he needs to work out.

BOLLING: Enough for you?

WILLIAMS: You know, I mean, the measure would be WWE, right? And I think, you know, when he goes and demeans The Rock, Dwayne Johnson, that hurts their brand.

BOLLING: He used the "N" word, Juan.

WILLIAMS: That's what I'm saying. A lot of people like The Rock, and this guy's calling him names.

GUILFOYLE: Yes, I know. He's been in a lot of good movies for children.

WILLIAMS: I'm saying this guy, Hulk Hogan, is...

GUILFOYLE: Yes, I got that. I followed the thread. I got it.

BOLLING: Is the apology enough? Are you OK with what he did in the past?

WILLIAMS: I think it's -- for me, it doesn't matter. I mean, I don't like it. Really, as you know, I have strong objections to the use of that kind of language. And I'm talking about how you refer to whites and whites use it, blacks use it, rappers use it. But I think the big issue in all of these is what does the big corporation think? Is it going to cost us money? And they've decided it's costing them money to hang around with Hulk Hogan.

BOLLING: We'll leave it right there.

Next, will the Deflategate scandal ever end? Apparently not yet. Tom Brady and NFL commissioner Roger Goodell were back in court today. Find out what happened, coming up.


SHILLUE: Tom Brady and the NFL tried to reach a settlement over his four- game suspension for the deflation of footballs at the AFC championship game, but since that didn't happen, a judge says he will decide as soon as tomorrow. Both Brady and Commissioner Roger Goodell were back in court today.

This is -- now, I've always thought, Bolling, that this was much ado about nothing. And I think all the silliness over the sketch artist and everything else proves this.

GUILFOYLE: It's kind of funny, actually.

BOLLING: I think you're 100 percent right. The most important thing that came out was the new sketch. I don't know if they have the side-by-side.

SHILLUE: We have the sketch.

BOLLING: You have them? That is the most important that came out today.  Because clearly the judge -- look at that. It's not much better yet.

PERINO: I don't know. He doesn't look like Skeletor.

GUILFOYLE: How about he couldn't sleep? That's hilarious.

BOLLING: Yes, he was nervous about what was going to be said about him.

SHILLUE: That other guy didn't fare well in the background, too. Let's -- you know, that guy...

BOLLING: The same guy?

GUILFOYLE: It's like the living dead or something. It is like one of your zombie apocalypses.

BOLLING: "The Walking Dead."

GUILFOYLE: You love it?

BOLLING: I love it. It's coming back soon.

SHILLUE: Dana, you were saying, though, during the break.

GUILFOYLE: I meant "The Night of the Living Dead."

PERINO: I don't know anything about anything.

SHILLUE: He's not electable. You don't think Tom Brady is electable?

PERINO: This is my P.R. perspective. I've never met the guy. I -- he probably is great, but what I get is a sense that he doesn't have a lot of friends in the industry.

SHILLUE: Does your husband root against him when he's watching? Is he yelling at the TV? That's why you don't like Brady.

PERINO: My husband is British.

SHILLUE: Oh, he likes that weird football.

PERINO: It's true. I don't know. We're Broncos fans, I guess.

But I'm just saying, I don't think that he's the most likable character.  Because if he were, then I think the P.R. coverage of it would be different.

Now, Roger Goodell is kind of seen as the bad guy in all of this, but it seems that he is actually more well-liked by his peers.

SHILLUE: Well, Juan...

PERINO: You see what I'm saying?

SHILLUE: Yes. But I think Roger Goodell, he's in a tough place here, because he's trying to -- you know, he wants to come down on Brady, but he's given lighter suspensions to people who are guilty of much worse, has he not?

WILLIAMS: We know that's the fact.


WILLIAMS: But you know, so what we know coming out, just for news, for a second, is that once the judge makes his decision, it's likely to be appealed by one side of another, which has the effect of forcing Brady to serve the four-game suspension, no matter what.

BOLLING: No, I think he can play until they...

WILLIAMS: No. So this doesn't look good for Brady right now.

PERINO: Why doesn't he just, like, take the suspension and walk away?

SHILLUE: I say no. Fight it, Kimberly. I like Brady. I think he should go...

GUILFOYLE: If you -- listen, if you feel you've been wronged, avail yourself of the law and the resources, and fight it. You've got the cash.  So if you say you're innocent, put it up.

SHILLUE: Didn't they end "The People's Court" with that speech? I love that. You take them to court.

GUILFOYLE: Take them to court. The Kimberly Court.

SHILLUE: All right. "One More Thing" is up next.


GUILFOYLE: It's that special time again, time for "One More Thing."

I begin with something so, so super cute, and it doesn't involve the royals. So this is 2-year-old Isaiah. He's super cute, and another 2- year-old. A little bit bigger in size, a gorilla named Kamoli. And they're playing a little game, like peekaboo at the zoo, at Ohio's Columbus Zoo. And the mother posted this on YouTube. Everybody loved it. And she said it was a really fun interaction. Isaiah is just like that. Everybody who knows him knows that he's super playful and adorable. It's very, very nice.

And Dana found this kind of mean to the gorilla, but I think you're playing with a baby. It's open to interpretation. I mean, I don't know. What do you guys think at home?

Eric, you like it.

BOLLING: Yes. They're both having a ball. Yes.

OK, check this out. Vlad Putin hanging out with his prime minister, Dmitry Medvedev. Look at them. Apparently, this is Putin's man cave in Sochi, his summer hang-out.

GUILFOYLE: You would love to be there.

BOLLING: I would love to do this. By the way, if I were there, I'd get Putin off those machines, because machines are for wussies, Putin. Get a bench press and start throwing up some weights.

GUILFOYLE: Uh-oh. Colonial (ph) twisting.

BOLLING: But afterwards, did you check that out? Did you see what that was? They had to grill some steaks after. Just "Grrr."

GUILFOYLE: You know what you would be doing. You'd be super tan with your shirt off.

BOLLING: That's right.

PERINO: Do you remember the Obama workout video? Do you remember the Obama workout video?

BOLLING: With the little bagel chips for weights? Yes.

PERINO: At least he wasn't using a machine.

BOLLING: That's true.

GUILFOYLE: Poor, Obama.

WILLIAMS: I use a machine.

GUILFOYLE: The mom jeans.

BOLLING: We need to -- we were going to do that.


PERINO: All right. I have something that's a little bit more serious, because the international refugee crisis is something that has been on my mind all weekend. Do you realize that we have the highest number of refugees in the world since World War II? There's about 4 million from Syria alone.

To put this in perspective, this is an aerial shot in Zaatari. It's in Syria -- I'm sorry. It's a refugee camp in Jordan where it's all Syrian people living. Look at that. That is how many people are living in that refugee camp.

Then, take a look at this. This is where 71 Syrians who were trying to find safe passage out of their country were killed because they were in a truck. This is in Austria. All of them died, including women and children.

On a personal level, look at this picture of a man who finally got his wife and his young daughter, with her little Snoopy backpack, out of Syria.  They crossed the border into Hungary, and they were arrested. Now, I'm not saying the Hungarians don't have a right to arrest them. They did. But the western world has a responsibility here.

And if we think that this is not going to affect us, we are wrong. And I would ask that everybody start asking the candidates and the administration what they plan to do to try to help the Europeans deal with this. You look at what Greece is going through. Across the board, this is going to affect us. We should start dealing with it now.

We should have dealt with it three years ago and helped them in their own country. But now, out of survival, they're going to come to our countries in the west. We have to do something.

GUILFOYLE: Compelling. Very "60 Minutes" flavor to it. I appreciate that. It's good. Tom.

SHILLUE: OK, I was at a wedding this weekend in Weston, Vermont, at the Weston Inn. They're huge fans of "The Five." They have the -- Fox News playing at all time.

PERINO: Are you serious?

SHILLUE: They are watching right now. I'm telling you.

PERINO: In Vermont?


PERINO: Hello. I love that.

SHILLUE: Yes, in Vermont.

BOLLING: You were at a wedding at the Weston in Weston?

SHILLUE: It was in Weston, Connecticut. Not the West End. The Weston, T- O-N.


SHILLUE: And the father of the groom had a couple of glasses of wine, so I made him sing barbershop with me. Take a look.




GUILFOYLE: That was very good.

SHILLUE: He's actually Terry Clark (ph). He's a world class barber shopper.


SHILLUE: A champion. I go to a lot of weddings, because I'm a barber shopper. We get up and sing. We get great...

PERINO: Do you give haircuts too?

GUILFOYLE: Were you really invited or was it wedding crashers?

WILLIAMS: All right, all right.


WILLIAMS: All right. So over the weekend, on Sunday, Wes Craven, the master of horror movies, died. You know, and I once had a conversation with him. I said, "Why do black and Hispanic kids love horror movies so?"  And so we went on about this. And then he called me back and he said, "You know what? Isolation."

And I said, "I get it," because I never go down in the basement to get lightbulbs. I'm so scared. We talked about it, and he said politics, just a horror show.

GUILFOYLE: All right. "Special Report." That's it. I'm so sorry.

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