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The Five

Trump's immigration plan provokes fiery debate on 'The Five'

This is a rush transcript from "The Five," August 17, 2015. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

KIMBERLY GUILFOYLE, CO-HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Kimberly Guilfoyle along with Geraldo Rivera, Jesse Watters, Dana Perino, and Tom Shillue. It's 5 o'clock in New York City and this is "The Five."

Since day one of his campaign, Donald Trump's been vowing to crack down on illegal immigration, and he's just detailed how he plans to do it, unveiling an agenda that includes a repeal of the president's executive orders.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHUCK TODD, NBC'S "MEET THE PRESS" HOST: What do you do about the DACA order now? Where you've and this grand for the DREAM Act, however you want to refer to it? The executive order that the president that is legal.

DONALD TRUMP, REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The executive order gets rescinded. One good thing about it.

TODD: You'll rescind that one too?

TRUMP: One good thing about.

TODD: You'll rescind the DREAM Act executive order.

TRUMP: You're going to have to.

TODD: The DACA.

TRUMP: We have to make a whole new set of standards. And when people coming in to have come in legally.

TODD: So you're going to split up families?

TRUMP: Chuck --

TODD: You're going to deport children?

TRUMP: Chuck. No, no. We're going to keep the families together. We have to keep the families together.

TODD: But you're going to keep them together out.

TRUMP: They have to go. But they have to go.

TODD: What if they have no place to go?

TRUMP: We will work with them. They have to go. Chuck, we either have a country or we don't have a country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUILFOYLE: One thing Trump doesn't lack is confidence. He's certain. Americans are going to be happy with his plan to deport millions of illegals.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TODD: Chuck, it'll work out so well, you will be so happy. In four years, you're going to be interviewing me and you going to say, what a great job you've done, President Trump. You going to say, you have done one of the great jobs, it's going to happen. And you know what? The good people are going to be able to come back, but they will going to come back legally.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUILFOYLE: OK. It sounds like he has a plan. He's trying to explain it to Chuck. He's like Chuck, Chuck, he said, you're going to break up families? No, no. We're going to keep the families together. What are you going to do with the families? They have to go. We'll work with them. They have to go. So what he's saying is the whole family will be deported. Am I wrong?

GERALDO RIVERA, CO-HOST: I think that it is --let me just say the one point that I like about Trump's plan, before I tell you about the many things I don't like and I appreciate it. Most of our audience will agree more with Trump than they do with me, but the one thing I do agree with Trump on is that the nation of Mexico and the nations of Central America and the other nations are complicit in the problem of undocumented immigration. They know that millions of people are coming from their country or transiting their country to enter our country illegal. So they should bear some fiscal responsibility, whether you take it out of the balance of payments between nations, however you work it. I think that that is the good part of Trump's.

GUILFOYLE: He's saying no more free ride.

RIVERA: Trump -- when it comes to the nation of Mexico and the other nations, Guatemala, Nicaragua, El Salvador et cetera, I agree with them. But, this is a massively inhumane proposal. I mean, do you remember the picture of Elian Gonzalez? The Cuban child being forcibly deported from the country with Jim Golden (ph), the immigration officer with the machine gun. The kid terrified in the closet, multiply that by 2 million. Can you see this whole notion of citizen-born children in the United States being forcibly deported to be with their undocumented parents in the country of origin? This is a program that is so draconian. I can't imagine how Donald Trump thinks that the Latinos, the Asians in this country will respond.

JESSE WATTERS, GUEST CO-HOST: I love how Chuck Todd is out there sitting, whining about, we know where these deported illegal aliens going to go. Where they going to go? Hey Chuck, why don't you put them up in your place, right? I mean, he's got room. He has compassion. A guy's probably got a big mansion. So I don't why he's advocating for that, but I think the plan is simple.

GUILFOYLE: What? I don't know Jesse.

DANA PERINO, CO-HOST: Jesse.

WATTERS: No, I look and I mean, if you going to comply, where they going to go? Where they going to go? Well, they're going to go somewhere. Why doesn't he take them, OK? And the other thing is.

PERINO: It's unrealistic is what Trump suggesting.

WATTERS: Well, here's what we do. Maybe he sends them down to the border. Maybe the illegal alien families build a wall. Then when the wall is finished, then they get amnesty.

(CROSSTALK)

WATTERS: That's called earned amnesty. Listen, I agree. It's going to be a trail of tears, but here's a plan. It's a simple plan. Protect the borders, protect the families, protect jobs and I don't buy the whole crocodile retailers (ph) from these liberals. Oh, you know what's going to happen because we know what they think is going to happen. We saw what Kelly Osbourne said. Remember on The View she goes, "Oh you can't deport all the illegals. Who's going to clean the toilets?" They think of these people as servants. And you know what? If these Mexican women were coming to this country illegally and having babies and these babies are growing up to vote republican, the democrats would be building a bigger wall than Trump.

RIVERA: And you would have a different opinion.

WATTERS: You think so?

RIVERA: I do.

WATTERS: You're calling me a hypocrite, Geraldo?

RIVERA: I'm calling you.

(LAUGHTER)

RIVERA: A partisan politician.

(CROSSTALK)

TOM SHILLUE, GUEST CO-HOST: I think Jesse that you're partly right that I think most people are not going to buy this compassionate argument because they don't think it's going to happen anyway. They don't think that there's going to be people with guns coming in like Elian Gonzalez.

And I don't think that either, I think that.

PERINO: Don't you think that they're just going to line up on, get on a bus?

SHILLUE: No. I think that.

WATTERS: Say support.

RIVERA: On the 300,000 buses it would take.

PERINO: Kimberly, honestly.

GUILFOYLE: I'm still pinching myself. Is this all happening right now? Is this real? Yeah, like go ahead. This is interesting.

SHILLUE: I think most people think that that wouldn't happen, that there wouldn't be mass deportation. So they just like the sound of Trump's plan. They say, yeah, I like the sound of it.

PERINO: But that isn't that a problem? This has been my problem from the beginning. It sounds good and it's totally unworkable and impractical and it will never happen. And you're selling people a bill of goods to make them feel better. You're not going to bring back all the jobs from China. The Mexicans are not going to build a wall. Even you know -- they're not going to do it. And were going to and -- the other thing is, the DREAM Act, when President Obama signed that, I think the approval rating for that was something near 70 percent. And I thought at the time, who in the future would ever try to take this back. And I thought no republican candidate is ever going to do that. It can only be -- it could only stay. Now you have President Trump -- maybe that's a Freudian slip.

WATTERS: Whoa.

PERINO: Saying that he will just -- just trust him. It's going to happen. I would love to see you and you, have to go find some families, round them up and say, I'm sorry. I know you've been here for several years, I know your children were born in the Bronx, but you, you're from Costa Rica, you're all out of here. And the -- and I would to see you too have to go and do that because I don't want any federal government employee to have to do with it so, after than (ph) that you guys are coming up with.

WATTERS: Well, I think the federal.

(CROSSTALK)

WATTERS: I think the federal courts are going to toss out the executive amnesty to begin with. It could happen even before.

PERINO: No.

WATTERS: President Trump comes around.

PERINO: OK. Let's talk about the judicial system.

WATTERS: Yeah.

PERINO: For a second. He's suggesting, basically, doing away with birthright citizenship. OK, so you're telling people in America, we're going to end that. That actually it's not easy. One of the things that drive people crazy about President Obama.

WATTERS: Wait a second.

PERINO: Is the imperial presidency?

WATTERS: Are you surprised that a politician is saying he's going to do things in a primary.

PERINO: I'm surprised that you fall for it.

WATTERS: And maybe not. Doesn't in his.

PERINO: I'm surprised that you fall for it.

WATERS: When he's president?

PERINO: Do you think.

WATTERS: This happens all the time. That's what presidents do.

PERINO: Do you think that the Supreme Court is going to overturn?

WATERS: There is no way.

PERINO: Do you think --

WATTERS: No.

PERINO: They're not going to overturn birthright citizenship.

WATTERS: I agree.

PERINO: Then why you're going to deport all of them and then what? Bring it back?

WATTERS: It's lip service. He says he's going to revoke it and it's never going to happen.

PERINO: And you're OK with that?

WATTERS: And every single politician says that.

PERINO: Honestly, Jesse.

WATTERS: I'm not surprised by these guys. This is what they did. This is how they get elected and this is how people going to (inaudible).

PERINO: Why -- and but you're in journalism. Like, don't you want to hold people to a bigger account?

(CROSSTALK)

RIVERA: Blow your nose at the United States constitution?

WATTERS: I don't think Trump's ever going to do it. I just said it. What do you want me to say?

PERINO: I mean, why are you praising him for saying it?

GUILFOYLE: Why are you supporting it?

PERINO: Why would you say it that it's not going to happen?

WATERS: I said that I like the border plan. I like defunding sanctuaries.

PERINO: There's a lot in there that people could support. Say -- there's a lot of it that you could support of that.

WATTERS: I like bolstering the manpower advice (ph).

PERINO: But you -- that's not what you said though.

WATTERS: I like it about 75 percent of the Trump's plan.

PERINO: What you said...

WATTERS: And 75 percent of Trump's plan is actually enforcing.

PERINO: What you said is that you're for rounding up the families.

(CROSSTALK)

RIVERA: Let me just tell you one practical -- let me give you one practical problem.

WATERS: I said they could sleep with Chuck Todd.

RIVERA: They going to do away with birthright citizenship. That means only the children of citizens will be citizens of the United States. So how will they tell when the baby is the maternity ward which is a citizen baby and which is a non-citizen baby since they were all born here? So what you are going to need is everybody in the country is going to need a national ID card. So you have an ID card.

PERINO: Oh.

RIVERA: And mom has an ID card. And every child has an ID card.

PERINO: Show us your papers.

RIVERA: And what would they remain you of, everyone has to be registered. So then they put it in a program said -- OK, so this trillion-dollar program with a national ID card is now the way America is going to run?

WATTERS: You know what.

RIVERA: This is obscene.

WATTERS: You know what's really alarming is when you have people in this country and you don't know where they from or who they are. And the next time ISIS comes here, we find out that ISIS came across the southern border, and we'll go whoops.

RIVERA: It's not a single penetration of the southern border.

WATTERS: Yes.

RIVERA: By any.

WATTERS: Yet, Geraldo.

RIVERA: Muslim extremists that we know of.

WATTERS: But Geraldo -- so Geraldo, do you lock your doors at night?

RIVERA: Sometimes.

WATTERS: OK. So you don't want the country to lock its doors?

RIVERA: I have no problem with the concept.

WATTERS: You don't want anybody at the door say.

RIVERA: Of a sovereign nation.

WATTERS: Oh, yeah. Can I see your ID? Come on in.

RIVERA: What do you -- do you want a smart answer or do you want to joust?

WATTERS: I want.

RIVERA: Now, if you want a smart answer.

PERINO: He kind of wants both.

WATTERS: I want the truth, Geraldo.

RIVERA: The truth is they -- the Trump is right when he says you can't have a sovereign nation without secure borders.

PERINO: Agree.

RIVERA: I totally get that. But if you build a truly and dollar fence who are multi-billion dollar fence -- for a few hundred dollars, they're going to buy shovels and they going to buy ladders and they going to defeat.

WATTERS: They're going to.

RIVERA: Your wall.

GUILFOYLE: Well you have to do it in a (inaudible) away.

(CROSSTALK)

RIVERA: You going to do things -- this 10 percent of the crops in this country that are going unpicked because of a shortage of labor, it's obvious that we have to expand the temporary worker visa program.

WATTERS: Geraldo, we're also at lowest record unemployment right now. Their black youth.

RIVERA: We're not in record unemployment.

WATTERS: The black youth unemployment is like at 30 percent.

RIVERA: Well, will the --

WATTERS: You don't think anybody wants a job?

RIVERA: Will the black youth now.

(CROSSTALK)

WATTERS: You don't think of the illegal aliens.

RIVERA: Will they go to the fields of the San Joaquin Valley?

WATTERS: Geraldo, you're not.

RIVERA: You pick the crop.

WATTERS: You don't think that illegal aliens.

RIVERA: Will they go to the poultry process.

WATTERS: Are taking the American jobs.

RIVERA: Will they go to the meat packing plants to work? I absolutely do not.

WATTERS: Geraldo.

RIVERA: In the construction field.

GUILFOYLE: Yeah.

RIVERA: That's the one area where I think there's a problem that has to be worked.

WATTERS: They take American jobs, Geraldo.

GUILFOYLE: Right. Let's so -- do you brought this up, and let's just pull this up because this is a full screen of the Trump's immigration policy paper, OK. So he was asked for specifics. He has given them and here's one of the statements. "Mexico's leaders have been advantage of the United States by using illegal immigration to export the crime and poverty in their own country. The costs for the United States have been extraordinary. U.S. taxpayers have been asked pick up hundreds of billions in health care costs, housing costs, education costs, welfare costs, the effects of jobseekers have also been disastrous and black Americans have been particularly harmed." This is the point that you two are discussing.

RIVERA: Right. I don't believe because he says it, it is so. I absolutely fight the Congressional Budget Office, which said that the undocumented immigrants, the 11, 12, 13 million, however many there are, they're a net positive. In other words, they pay more and things like sales taxes. They pay the Social Security to accounts that are fake.

GUILFOYLE: Right.

RIVERA: That they have no chance of ever redeeming. These are the people who will bring the immigrant energy to the country. Again, I say it knowing that the vast majority of our audience probably agrees with you over me.

PERINO: I don't know. I think.

RIVERA: I am just - I am.

PERINO: I don't know. I don't think.

RIVERA: I am urging people to take a second look. These plans by Donald Trump -- God bless him. I love the guy. So charismatic, so energetic, he is infuse the whole race with the new charisma is -- is a farce and you said it yourself, Jesse. You think that this would never come to pass. Then why promulgate what is essentially -- is it -- what does he want, a Civil War between African-Americans and Latinos now? We're impeding one minority.

WATTERS: Well, he actually said, the Latinos and the blacks are both going to vote for Trump. He said the Latinos and the blacks are both going to vote for Trump. So I don't know if wants to.

SHILLUE: And also.

(CROSSTALK)

SHILLUE: I mean, I think my point was great. And that most people, even people who are supporting Trump, his die hard supporters, I think most of them don't think he's going to be elected president, but they're supporting him because like he said in the debate. He said, "If I wasn't here, you wouldn't be talking about this." I think that's what the voters are saying. They think that perhaps Trump is going to have an effect on the country.

PERINO: I can see that.

SHILLUE: And they think that.

PERINO: I can see that.

SHILLUE: Yeah.

PERINO: Yeah. I agree with that.

GUILFOYLE: Dana.

PERINO: I actually think there's something that Donald Trump could do that with even be more effective. Which is to talk about -- if he wants to talk about African-American youth unemployment, there's actually two liberal policies that have really lead and exacerbated it. And the first one is minimum wage laws that have -- ratcheted it up so much. That if you're in a state and you have a choice between buying a robot or hiring two teens, you choose the robot because it is economics. The second thing is the negative consequences of Obamacare and the part-time worker issue has really exacerbated the African-American unemployment issue. So I think there are things that he could actually talk about.

GUILFOYLE: Right.

PERINO: And I wouldn't just recommend people. Look, I know I got a lot of hate for sending this out today, but Alex Nowrasteh, I think I would say that correctly, wrote an article on The Federalist website. Donald Trump on immigration, I really encourage people to read this. If you care about this issue and you want to know the facts, especially economics, there's a lot in here that can open up your mind.

GUILFOYLE: Well, that was really nice. Thank you for --

PERINO: Of course.

GUILFOYLE: Bringing it up, though.

PERINO: Reading recommendation.

GUILFOYLE: Absolutely. All right, the last more to discuss more jousting ahead -- is next.

(CROSSTALK)

PERINO: Jesse is going to get.

GUILFOYLE: Give it to her.

PERINO: My coffee.

(LAUGHTER)

GUILFOYLE: As a count of five.

RIVERA: Even in a bowling scale, he's going to get speed up.

WATTERS: I already.

(CROSSTALK)

GUILFOYLE: Hillary Clinton server keeps climbing -- numbers are going up. She keeps making jokes about it. Follow ahead, on The Five. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PERINO: All right. You got to love Kimberly Guilfoyle. All right, Hillary Clinton's e-mail scandal isn't going away, though she wishes it would.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILARY CLINTON, 2016 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You may have seen that I recently launched a Snapchat account.

(APPLAUSE)

CLINTON: I love it. I love it. Those messages disappear all by themselves.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PERINO: When jokes like that fall flat, she can always revert to type and blame the right-wing conspiracy and some Benghazi, while she's at it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINTON: Let's be clear. Seven exhaustive investigations including, by the republican controlled House Armed Services Committee and the republican controlled House Intelligence Committee have already debunked all of the conspiracy theories. It's not about Benghazi.

(APPLAUSE)

CLINTON: And you know what. It's not about e-mails or servers either. It's about politics.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PERINO: But will her attempts to shrug it off work? Bob Woodward said the scandal reminds him of another big story that he help break.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BOB WOODWARD, JOURNALIST: In a way, it reminds me of the Nixon tapes. Thousands of hours of secretly recorded conversations that Nixon thought were exclusively hers -- his, he was not going to get him. Hillary Clinton initially took that position.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PERINO: All right, Tom. We're going to have to start with you because you do stand-up for a living. You're the host of Red Eye, do you know how to deliver a joke.

GUILFOYLE: You're a big deal.

PERINO: Your critique of Hillary Clinton.

(LAUGHTER)

SHILLUE: I mean -- her joke-telling technique, it has roots in history. It's the town crier technique.

PERINO: OK.

SHILLUE: It's the, hear ye, hear ye.

(LAUGHTER)

SHILLUE: Just yell the jokes slowly and loudly.

(LAUGHTER)

GUILFOYLE: It's true.

RIVERA: Just an example.

SHILLUE: Yeah. If she was telling you know, how did the chicken cross the road?

(LAUGHTER)

GUILFOYLE: That would have been better.

SHILLUE: Yeah.

GUILFOYLE: Actually.

SHILLUE: But that's -- I mean, that's her joking technique. She uses it a lot, and then she puts the stress on the wrong words. Nobody understand, it's like is this a joke or not? But then she gets -- then after the joke, she gets serious -- the Conspiracy theory. I mean, it's all very weird. And she has a friendly audience. It's now like it's a hostile crowd. They're cheering everything she says.

PERINO: Not only that, but Jesse.

GUILFOYLE: Jesse is crying. He can't take it.

WATTERS: I'm still laughing at your impression. No, I mean.

GUILFOYLE: It doesn't matter.

PERINO: The jokes are written for her. I mean.

WATTERS: It's -- I mean.

GUILFOYLE: Who's doing it?

WATTERS: Maybe she thinks it's funny because she thinks Obama is going to pardon her. I mean, I have no idea. It's not funny, though.

GUILFOYLE: Actually.

WATTERS: Because there -- and it's not funny because they're having -- the democrats are drafting like gore.

(LAUGHTER)

WATTERS: It's like, to save her because she's going to implode. She -- this will makes Lois Lerner looks smooth. Can you imagine -- I mean, you know what at least said this the other day. When you look at the republicans out there debating, none of them are under the investigation by the FBI, but that's pretty good. Chris Christie, could you imagine during Bridgegate? If Christie handed over a wiped server, the prosecutor it was like, ha, ha, ha, it's very funny. Or rove during the plane deal? It was like, oh here -- here's the wiped server. I mean, it's crazy. You'll never go away with that.

PERINO: That it's just during the time I can tell you how that would have gone. Kimberly, let me ask you, though, about that because she's in the middle of a federal investigation about a serious issue regarding classified information. They found 305 more possibilities on the server that they've seen so far.

GUILFOYLE: So far, yeah.

PERINO: And we find out that the private company that was hosting the server might actually have an entirely backed up server.

GUILFOYLE: Right.

PERINO: So is it now the time to joke?

GUILFOYLE: I do pick -- no.

PERINO: Like, if you're a federal investigator, do you watch that?

GUILFOYLE: You're laughing all the way it's in front to the judge and the jury because like wow, I'm going to use all of this against her and she is convicted on it. This is not going to vote well because it shows that she doesn't take it seriously. She's thumbing (ph) your nose at it. She doesn't -- she's above the law. She is trying to say this is, you know based on a conspiracy. It's pretty appalling. And she wants to be president of the United States. So it's getting much worse for her. To me, this feels like she's imploding. I think we`ve just kind of getting the tip of this right now. So far, it's like 5.1 percent of what they've looked at. They're not done. And if in fact, they get a hold of that duplicate server, where everything is backed up, forget it. Because how about the e-mails that they went through with her (inaudible).

PERINO: Yeah, because one of the things on that is that she and her staff Geraldo say that they went through the e-mails.

GUILFOYLE: Yeah.

PERINO: And they decided what to turn over and what not, but if all of the e-mails exist, that excuse goes out the window.

RIVERA: Didn't your boss once famously tell a joke about looking for weapons of mass destruction and they look around at the war --

PERINO: And it fell flat.

RIVERA: And the White House correspondent did.

PERINO: And it fell flat.

RIVERA: And it felt flat, but politician was.

PERINO: That was.

WATTERS: That was a fun dinner.

PERINO: that was one day in each year.

RIVERA: And that was -- you're right. That was.

WATTERS: That was a fun dinner was out there on the (inaudible).

RIVERA: The fun dinner was globally broadcast. It was a terrible joke, and it came with a GIS were dead.

PERINO: I'm agreeing with you.

RIVERA: He can't be any more serious than that. Politicians sometimes have bad judgment. They should stick to their profession, which is politics, not joke telling.

WATTERS: But.

RIVERA: In terms of Hillary Clinton and the e-mail servers. I know that everybody gets a hyper excite about it. And I was pretty surprised to see Bob Woodward making that expansive comparison to Watergate, but that shocking.

GUILFOYLE: Well that does not say something to you?

RIVERA: It would. It doesn't say anything to me, unless they come up with something. So far they have come up.

GUILFOYLE: See.

RIVERA: With nothing other than the fact that she used a private e-mail server. She's not the first secretary of state to do that.

GUILFOYLE: No, no, no.

RIVERA: Although she is. She is the first one to do it exclusively, not the first one to do it. And they haven't found anything yet.

WATTERS: They haven't found anything because deleted everything.

RIVERA: But if you send an e-mail, it's not deleted. First of all, it's not even deleted on the machine that you tried to delete it from, and it sent to somebody or someone, especially to her.

PERINO: Remember, though, but.

RIVERA: There's a whole other.

GUILFOYLE: You can also.

PERINO: Geraldo, you know that.

RIVERA: Source, to get the information.

WATTERS: So why is she hiding it if it is all out in the open?

PERINO: And in one of the email.

RIVERA: Because she doesn't want to be embarrassed.

GUILFOYLE: Consciousness of guilt.

WATTERS: About what?

PERINO: One of the e-mails has her asking for instruction and being told about a book that teaches you actually how to double delete e-mails, so that's kind of interesting. The other thing is that.

GUILFOYLE: Oh.

PERINO: This is interesting about the State Department. Despite knowing -- so State Department, months ago, finds out that this thumb drive exists, OK? With all the e-mails on it, and that they know that they've seen classified hits on it. So they've -- instead of the State Department going to get the thumb drive, what do they do instead?

GUILFOYLE: Send a safe.

PERINO: They send a safe to the lawyer's office.

GUILFOYLE: A law on Fox.

PERINO: Who doesn't have a top secret clearance and said just hold this for us. I mean no one else in the world would get this kind of white glove treatment.

SHILLUE: Also.

PERINO: From the government.

RIVERA: That.

SHILLUE: Geraldo, why is your example is bad.

RIVERA: It's the George W. Bush.

SHILLUE: George W. Bush was making fun of a failure that he admitted to, that it was his failure to find weapons of mass destruction.

GUILFOYLE: Sure.

SHILLUE: Poking fun at himself. Hillary is saying, you people are crazy and you're all, you know drumming up conspiracies, and I am totally innocent. She was making fun of the people accusing her. It was the opposite. She was not making fun of herself.

RIVERA: And this thing called that.

PERINO: Well, it is good to have you on this segment.

GUILFOYLE: No, and also, according to the White House press correspondent, you know the president is supposed to get up and give kind of funny, interesting, Entertaining remarks. That is the purpose and the nature. Not as somebody is trying to get elected.

RIVERA: I think we have at least 2,000 deaths by then because of that (inaudible) or, come on.

GUILFOYLE: Listen, I don't think there's comparison.

PERINO: That's it.

WATTERS: And there was four dead in Benghazi. I know it's not the same, Geraldo, but at least.

(CROSSTALK)

RIVERA: It has nothing to do with Hillary and that's exactly what she was saying.

WATTERS: Nothing to do with Hillary?

RIVERA: And nothing to do with Hillary before Benghazi.

GUILFOYLE: What are you talking about?

WATTERS: What do you mean? They asked for security like five times and.

(CROSSTALK)

RIVERA: Are you going to bring up the standout order all those phony stories?

PERINO: I think we got to go.

WATTERS: I never said anything about that. Why was there no security on the anniversary of 9/11?

RIVERA: It's a fake. Benghazi was fake.

WATTERS: What's fake?

RIVERA: It was a fake scandal.

WATTERS: What's fake.

RIVERA: That she had anything to do with not rescuing the people who are being.

WATTERS: They asked for security four times.

GUILFOYLE: In other words, repeated requests for extra security.

WATTERS: Yeah.

GUILFOYLE: Given the real threat in the area.

(CROSSTALK)

WATTERS: Why they didn't blame it on the YouTube video.

SHILLUE: The scandal was that it was happening and they were talking about.

GUILFOYLE: Right.

SHILLUE: That videotape. That was a lie on that day.

RIVERA: Well that says that's an origin. That's an origin.

SHILLUE: I don't see any terrorism.

PERINO: All right.

GUILFOYLE: Fine.

PERINO: We can always get back to the Iraq war on this show.

(LAUGHTER)

All right, ahead. Donald Trump, being back to him too, been stepping up attacks on his fellow candidates, so how should his fellow opponents fight back, or should they? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WATTERS: The republican debate is over, but Donald Trump is still firing away at his opponents.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: When Jeb Bush raises $114 million, I know those people who gave him the money. I used to be one of them. I mean, I gave to everybody, OK? I know those people. He's like a puppet for those people. Walker grew up a little bit in Iowa, became the governor of the adjoining state, but what people don't know is that tremendous mess of deficits. Carly was a little nasty to me. Be careful, Carly. She ran Hewlett-Packard into the ground. I said I will not say it that her stock value tanked. That she laid off tens of thousands of people and she got viciously fired.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WATTERS: And some are firing right back at him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAND PAUL, 2016 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think all of the (inaudible) and all the, you know you're stupid kind of language, it doesn't really get us anywhere, but it also makes you think that imperiousness that he's just going to say, "Well, I'm Donald Trump, and therefore, it is so."

CARLY FIORINA (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It's not clear to me that Donald Trump is a Republican, first of all, based on his willingness to run a third-party ticket.

GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R-NJ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Donald's a great guy and a good person. But I just don't think he's suited to be president of the United States.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WATTERS: So what is the best way for the GOP candidates to deal with Trump? Kimberly, I want to start with you. The people that are No. 2 and No. 3 in the latest FOX News poll, Carson and Cruz, both of them have not attacked the Donald. Yet they're No. 2 and No. 3. Do you see any correlation there?

GUILFOYLE: Well, also, their message is similar. Similarly situated.

WATTERS: Outsiders.

GUILFOYLE: Yes, outsiders and more of a populist message that people are really gravitating towards, so there's definitely a similar ideology there. It's delivered in a different way, but they've chosen not to get into the fray. But that's smart. Why should they? What skin do they have in trying to get after him to take him down? They're doing just fine, and in fact, they're kind of pulling from the same swell. It would be bad -- bad advice if someone told them to do that.

WATTERS: And Carly Fiorina took a shot at him at the debate, and it looked like it was a little bit of a warning shot that Donald threw at Carly. You know, don't mess with me. Some of you gasped.

PERINO: He said, "Be careful, Carly."

WATTERS: Yes.

PERINO: Which, if I was his team, I'd say, "You know what, boss? Back off a little bit on attacking women. Just -- I think that would be a smart move."

I actually think -- I agree with Kimberly. I would treat him like a ghost.

WATTERS: Pretend the frontrunner doesn't exist?

PERINO: Just because I think that enough of those candidates have to tend to their own knitting, and they have a lot of work to do on their own.

Now, it could be that they're getting pressure from their fundraisers and their supporters, saying, "Why aren't you going after him?" But there will be a time and a place, if it's appropriate and they need to.

If you remember, in the -- right before the Florida primary in the last cycle, Romney went after Gingrich, and he hit him hard, and that was what was able to knock him out. I think at this point, with 17 people in the race, focus on yourself and maybe try to get some of the other guys out if you -- if you think that's necessary. But I think right now just treat him like a ghost.

WATTERS: Here's some lines of attack. I want to throw these out there. You tell me if they would stick on Donald Trump. OK?

Foreign policy: you go after his temperament. Right? You say, you know, "I don't want my son shifted off to war, because Putin insulted Donald Trump's hair." OK?

Or on economic policies, say, "Don't run the country like a casino. We're not going to gamble with my kids' future."

PERINO: Have you been working on these?

GUILFOYLE: He actually typed them up.

WATTERS: This is -- this is fair and balanced, right? And here on immigration you say, "Does the Trump corporation hire illegals? Now, you want to deport them" Do you think those are legitimate ways of attack against the Donald, or is he just going to come back and vaporize you?

GUILFOYLE: How much time did you spend on that?

RIVERA: I think that the effectiveness of Donald Trump is twofold. I mean, I mentioned (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and energy, but also he is so good at that counterattack. He's an excellent counter -- he has totally gotten social media and the effectiveness of social media to give someone the business. He's financially independent and it doesn't matter who he insults in terms of the bankroll.

And when he goes after Jeb for taking money, as all politicians other than a billionaire have to, the thing about his -- when it has a kernel of truth, that's what makes his -- his ripping counterattack so effective.

WATTERS: Right. And would you go after Trump? Would you go after his hair? What would you say?

SHILLUE: No, I wouldn't go after his personal stuff, because he tends to do that with the candidates. Go after his positions. He's weakest on past positions, because he's articulated Democrat positions in the past. So that's what I would go after.

But I would go him. It's early now, so you might as well get in the fray. Who's getting the most attention in the press?

PERINO: Rand.

SHILLUE: Rand Paul.

PERINO: I know. I said he's growing on me.

SHILLUE: Yes, you see? Ted Cruz is playing nice with Trump and where is Ted Cruz? Where is he?

GUILFOYLE: No, Ted Cruz is coming up in the polls. Actually, he's doing very well. He's jumped up in the polls.

RIVERA: And Cruz is higher than Rand Paul. Rand Paul is...

(CROSSTALK)

SHILLUE: He's not on my radar.

GUILFOYLE: He's jumped up in the polls.

SHILLUE: You've got to read the fine print. OK, well, I think you should fight with Trump. Now's the time. Get it out.

PERINO: But an interesting thing about Trump and Carson both being so high up in the polls. You couldn't find more polar opposites than the two of them in terms of approach and temperament and...

WATTERS: Trump and Cruz?

PERINO: No, Trump and Carson.

WATTERS: Maybe that's a ticket.

PERINO: I mean, both of them are not -- are not career politicians. I understand that that's part of the appeal.

GUILFOYLE: They may have different demeanor, but they're saying some of the same, you know, things.

WATTERS: So the headline here before we go to commercial is Dana is warming up to Rand Paul.

Ahead, one NFL star is making his sons give back trophies they came home with, because they didn't earn them. Should more parents teach the same lesson? Next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SHILLUE: Pittsburgh Steeler James Harrison knows what it's like to work hard. He made it into in the NFL and helped his team win two Super Bowls. So when the linebacker saw his sons came home with participation trophies the other day for simply participating in sports, he posted this on Instagram, and it's going viral.

"While I am very proud of my bowls for everything they do, these trophies will be given back until they earn a real trophy. Everything in life should be earned. And I'm not about to raise two boys to be men by making them believe that they're entitled to something just because they tried their best. Because sometimes your best is not enough, and that should drive you to want to do better." Hmm.

PERINO: Agreed.

SHILLUE: It's going viral. Now...

PERINO: For good reason.

SHILLUE: ... Dana, you're a bit of a graduation Grinch, are you not?

PERINO: I am. No, I don't have children, so take this with a grain of salt. You have two lovely daughters.

SHILLUE: Yes.

PERINO: And I love them. And I love Ronan, OK? But here's the thing for me.

I am not for any graduation but high school and college. You are expected to graduate from kindergarten and fifth grade and eighth grade. You do not get a special something just because you went to class that day. You don't get something for that.

And I know we don't have a lot of time. I just want to say, I think that he's absolutely right, and he -- his boys will do better in life, because Generation X is at a point now where we can be managers. We're hiring people to work for us; we're having to manage them. And Generation X cannot get along that well with millennials in the workplace for a reason. We -- nobody gave us a trophy for finishing high school.

SHILLUE: That's right.

PERINO: Or going to school. And you don't get a trophy just because you came to work today, and you completed your task as assigned.

GUILFOYLE: Jesse wants one.

PERINO: You get awarded for things that are extraordinary. And this is not. I think he's great, and I'm going to be a huge fan of his. I'm a big sports fan.

SHILLUE: Yes.

PERINO: Or I will be now.

SHILLUE: But Geraldo -- Geraldo, you think it's kind of harsh. You think every kid should get a trophy?

RIVERA: I think that you can have graduated trophies. Give one guy five. Next to him, four, three, two, one. Just to give...

GUILFOYLE: Even more trophies?

PERINO: You're redistributing trophies.

RIVERA: You know, not everybody is the fastest, the brightest or the tallest. You know, I think that, you know, you've got to encourage participation, and the way you do it, I think, sometimes is to give some kind of recognition for effort.

WATTERS: But the fake trophies. Like you have, like, the coach's award, the most improved for the guy that's not very good.

SHILLUE: The most improved, I used to do that.

PERINO: But most improved means that you did something beyond just showing up.

WATTERS: Or maybe the spirit award or something like that you give to the loser.

But listen, I have an admission to make. My 3-1/2-year-old daughters just got participation trophies for kickboard team. And you know what happens? They got it. And one of my daughters took it, and she smashed it on the ground. I think she actually dropped it, but maybe deep down she realized she didn't deserve it.

And you know what I did? She was about to cry. She was about to cry, and we got her another one. So she has two participation trophies.

SHILLUE: Oh, that is incredible.

PERINO: Two strikes against you.

RIVERA: I just came back from Coney Island, and I made sure that all the kids won the game where you spray the water and the balloon pops.

PERINO: I like that.

WATTERS: How did you make sure?

RIVERA: Because when I -- the best one won first. Then the next best one won second. Then the third one, I made sure that I was aiming everywhere else but the balloon.

PERINO: But that's fair.

RIVERA: They all got (UNINTELLIGIBLE) now, and if they're watching, they're going to be totally disabused of...

PERINO: Kimberly, what are you thinking?

SHILLUE: You don't let kids win, do you, Kimberly?

GUILFOYLE: It's not the way we run things in my house. Let me tell you something. Yes, right. If you get injured, you don't go to the hospital. You rub dirt on it. No trophies.

No, but it's really true. And this is how I was raised, too. When I would like sprain or hurt, my dad would just get a popsicle. Tape it. That's it. That's it. And it was good.

WATTERS: Popsicle stick/

GUILFOYLE: Yes. That's what we would do. It's like no time to be going to the emergency room. Like pull it together, right? And my dad would be like to my brother, too, don't come home from playing sports unless you're bleeding. Like you put it all out on the field and go for it. Life is hard.

RIVERA: Life is hard, but this is the same guy who refused to go to the White House when two presidents, Bush and Obama, invited him to the White House when the Steelers won the Super Bowl. You know, I just think that that's way too -- way too, you know, disrespectful.

SHILLUE: Well, I mean, he's just...

RIVERA: If you want to invite -- you want to invite the Steelers to the White House, you invite them. Come on.

GUILFOYLE: Invite what? Invite what?

RIVERA: Give it a break.

PERINO: Maybe he didn't want to go to the White House.

SHILLUE: Look, I think that maybe we shouldn't have trophies at all for kids. How's that?

PERINO: I'm for that.

SHILLUE: Forget the trophies.

GUILFOYLE: Why?

PERINO: Think of what you could do to protect the environment.

SHILLUE: Have you ever watched kids' sports? None of them are that good.

GUILFOYLE: That's not true. It depends on who you're watching.

SHILLUE: Yes, compared...

GUILFOYLE: And who your kid is.

SHILLUE: Because they're kids, that's why. Try to play against me. I'll dominate. OK.

Still to come, the Donald...

RIVERA: And only -- and only then.

SHILLUE: ... left the campaign trail today to report for jury duty. How did that go? We will -- we'll see him serving on trial, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

RIVERA: Can't get Tom's impression of Hillary Clinton out. "The media can't seem to get enough of Donald Trump." A good one.

PERINO: There you go.

RIVERA: With Trump, reporters following his every move.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Where are the children? Get them over here. That's great. I love children. I love Iowa. Great place. Let's give them a helicopter ride, OK? Right? Good. I don't know. Let's go see.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sometimes there's been a backlash against rich candidates like Mitt Romney. Any chance of that with you?

TRUMP: Well, I don't think -- he wasn't rich.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Trump?

TRUMP: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you Batman?

TRUMP: I am Batman.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RIVERA: Totally Batman. Today Batman -- the frenzy moved to the courthouse in lower Manhattan, where the presidential candidate showed up for jury duty. After waiting around like all the other prospective jurors, at times seeming dozing off, Trump ultimately, dismissed, which means he will not be called back for jury duty for six years.

But I'm telling you, Dana, outside that courthouse, it was as if Elvis showed up. There's really something there.

PERINO: He's just like us. He's just like us.

WATTERS: A regular Joe.

PERINO: I turned up for jury duty last year, and it was good to see.

Imagine if Mitt Romney had embraced his wealth and a kid had said, "Are you Superman?" He said, "No, kid, I just look like him." Ha, ha, right? He probably would be president right now.

GUILFOYLE: That would have been amazing.

PERINO: It would have been. It's true.

GUILFOYLE: He does look like Superman. No, Ronan just said to me the other day, "Mom, I know you used to love that guy, that Rimney [SIC]. Why don't you marry him?"

I said, "Well, he's married."

He goes, "Well, maybe I'll marry his wife."

I'm like, "She's married to him."

He's so funny. He loves it. He's like, "Well, you know, Mom, he can afford us.

RIVERA: Is that how you raise your kids?

GUILFOYLE: No, I wasn't.

WATTERS: Rub some dirt on it, too.

GUILFOYLE: Rub dirt on it and marry well.

PERINO: Popsicle stick.

RIVERA: Do you think that, Jesse, will translate into votes?

WATTERS: Absolutely. He's a billionaire man of the people. Right? He's just like the common man. I think he won the Iowa State Fair. He had a pork chop on a stick. He was really...

RIVERA: Fried pork chop.

WATTERS: ... living it up. And, you know, I think all he needs to do, he needs to do a football game coin toss. I think he does the NASCAR rally. I think he comes down the steps of Air Force Trump with Melania with the long legs. He's got the whole presidential image mastered, and I think the media is just a sucker for it.

SHILLUE: Yes, the president image from 1920. I think the last president to win with white shoes was Warren Harding. Wasn't it?

WATTERS: Cool it.

GUILFOYLE: Personal attack, Shillue.

RIVERA: Harding -- Harding was great.

SHILLUE: Well, look, the shoes, I mean, they're a little much.

GUILFOYLE: Be careful, Tom.

PERINO: Be careful, Tom.

SHILLUE: I think he's great. He's a lot of fun. But I don't know why...

GUILFOYLE: And we would have the hottest first lady ever.

SHILLUE: Yes.

WATTERS: Thank you.

SHILLUE: But why the charade with the jury duty? You got called -- why don't they just, like -- you know, he's Donald Trump. Don't call him for jury duty.

PERINO: No. Everybody gets called. They have to call.

RIVERA: It's America. Sometimes charades are forms that democracies follow. So that old men and women are...

PERINO: Besides -- besides, we wouldn't have even had a heat lock (ph) if he hadn't gone to jury duty.

SHILLUE: Then they let him go. They -- they let him go.

RIVERA: That's the lawyers.

PERINO: Let me tell you something. When we put a camera on him to be -- and we have a FOX News alert that says he's about to go to the little boy's room, then we will know we have hit rock bottom. But until then, we should just cover every single move.

RIVERA: I had the three monitors on. I was doing my radio program at the time. And CNN actually paused...

PERINO: Unbelievable.

RIVERA: ... to allow the natural sound of Trump's ascension of the steps into the courtroom. I swear to God.

GUILFOYLE: So what does that tell you?

RIVERA: We'll pause our commentary to allow you to enjoy the sound.

WATTERS: Look at all those people. He's got the "it" factor. I mean, this is a year and a half before the election.

PERINO: We don't even need an election.

WATTERS: There's throngs of reporters out there. I mean, it's a coronation.

PERINO: We don't even need an election.

WATTERS: For real.

RIVERA: Do you think he's topped at 25 percent? Do you think he's stuck? Do you think that that's more than the...

PERINO: Not necessarily. I would never say that. I would never say that. I know that somebody apparently said that.

RIVERA: Latinos won't vote for him. Asians won't vote for him. Will they?

WATTERS: Why won't Asians vote for him?

RIVERA: Because of the immigration factor. They voted three-fourths for Barack Obama. Don't you think they will...

GUILFOYLE: No.

WATTERS: They want to deal with America, come on.

RIVERA: Black people certainly won't vote for him.

SHILLUE: How many people like Trump? It's 20 -- let's say it's 25 percent of the Republican primary base voters. That's not a huge percentage of the country.

PERINO: Only 18 percent of Republican registered voters actually vote in a primary. The numbers get smaller. There's not a lot of room for error.

SHILLUE: Yes. So I mean, it's -- yes, you're saying it's 25 percent of 18.

RIVERA: I think they all turned out at the steps of the courthouse today.

"One More Thing" is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GUILFOYLE: It's time now for "One More Thing." Dana, what do you have?

PERINO: OK. I'm going to take a little bit more serious approach with my "One More Thing" today.

Because in the category of "Is anyone going to do anything?" last week, I read a New York Times story by a woman named Rukmini Callimachi. I hope I'm saying that correctly. It's entitled "ISIS Enshrines a Theology of Rape." The article has haunted me, as it should.

From the piece, "The systemic rape of women and girls from the Yezidi religious minority has become deeply enmeshed." Basically, they said that it is in your religion that you should enslave these women, the Yezidis in particular, and rape them. The trade in Yezidi women and girls has created this infrastructure, where they have to be held in rooms. People come in. They have to turn around. They decide if they're going to be sold or not.

A total of 52 hundred Yezidis were abducted last year, and at least 3,100 are still being held. And I want America to think very seriously about having an argument about a fake blond woman here in the United States when future generations are going to ask us "Why did you stand by and do nothing?" And I just really hope we have a better answer for them than we do right now.

RIVERA: All right. So another reason to hate ISIS.

GUILFOYLE: That was fantastic.

RIVERA: Absolutely.

GUILFOYLE: Yes.

RIVERA: Let's pound them. Let's punish them.

PERINO: We should do something.

GUILFOYLE: And let's not forget about this. This is a very important topic, and they need our help. You know, they cannot be forgotten.

RIVERA: Definitely.

I had a lot more fun this weekend than dealing with that. I went to Chicago to do a program with Steve Harvey. He has a terrific daytime show. It was a program, "What Men Really Think." Steve is charming. He's thoughtful; I think he's sensible. He's a terrific guy. It was the man panel. That's David Otunga. That's Jennifer Hudson's husband next to me and the -- Todd Chrisley, very funny. "Chrisley Knows Best" on USA. And Bill Rancic, the original winner of "The Apprentice." They were -- we were there.

And the topics kind of reminded me of my old -- it was -- first of all, it was a live audience of 2,000 men. It reminded me of my old -- and 200 women. My old daytime show. It was a very funny daytime show. It reminded me -- Steve's topics on Sunday reminded me of my daytime show. That was a Cher look-alike contest. He had Lenny Kravitz's wardrobe malfunction, Ben Affleck an Nanny-gate, and my advice was never -- never hire a beautiful nanny. And would you marry a stripper? So we had funny - - funny stuff.

GUILFOYLE: I hope you said no.

WATTERS: Writing your will.

RIVERA: I beg your pardon?

GUILFOYLE: OK. Let's get -- let's get to excellence. San Francisco, go West Coast with me. San Francisco Giants, my favorite baseball team. And the Yankees. I give a little flavor to the East Coast.

But here's the best. So on September 30, they are hosting a "Full House" theme night, OK, when you go to the game, and they have a little video here to promote it. It's very cute.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRAPHIC: Starring Brandon Crawford, Hunter Pence, Matt Duffy, Jeremy Affeldt.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PERINO: I love it.

GUILFOYLE: This show is so wholesome and so nice. I love watching it. I watch it to this day. So I'm going to say, I've got to get back there for this. And I have a little San Francisco Giants gear. They're so cute.

OK. Yes, what have you got?

RIVERA: Adorable.

WATTERS: OK. So University of Alabama sorority released a recruitment video that got a half a million hits on YouTube. Well, because...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(MUSIC)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WATTERS: Now, the university sorority had to take down the video off of YouTube, because it came under a little bit of controversy when a writer criticized the video for being full of "white-bread bimbos objectifying themselves." So you know, there's a war on police out there. You know, there's a war on everything out there. Now there's a war on white sorority women. And I say you can't take this lying down. Put the video back up.

GUILFOYLE: Oh, my God. I love that little inflatable duck.

OK, good. We have no time. All right, bye.

PERINO: We ran out of time for Tom?

GUILFOYLE: "Special Report."

PERINO: Watch him on "Red Eye." Watch him on "Red Eye." And give him a trophy!

SHILLUE: I'll Twitter it. I'll tweet it. I'll tweet my "One More Thing."

PERINO: OK. I'll retweet it.

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