Trump goes on offensive in NH; Walker fights dip in polls

Presidential candidate lays out his strategy on 'The Kelly File'


This is a rush transcript from "The Kelly File," August 14, 2015. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

SHANNON BREAM, GUEST HOST: Breaking tonight, the 2016 race for the White House is at full speed as candidates hit the ground running in two states with reputations of making or breaking presidential hopes. And it comes as brand new Fox News polls show potentially big trouble for Hillary Clinton's campaign.  

Welcome to "The Kelly File," I'm Shannon Bream in for Megyn Kelly. Many campaigns start or end in Iowa and New Hampshire. That state is playing host to the first of the nation caucuses and the first in the nation primary respectively. Nationwide here is how the top five are shaking up for the Republicans, Donald Trump leading the PAC by nearly double digits in the Real Clear Politics average of polls. And then a crowded field of Governor Jeb Bush, Governor Scott Walker, Senator Marco Rubio and Dr. Ben Carson. And here is how the candidates did at the annual State Fair in barnstorming through New Hampshire in one of their best chances to make a face-to-face first impression.


DONALD TRUMP, R-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I don't think they are bad people. You know, used to be they said it is so bad it has to be that they are bad people. I actually don't think -- I think they are very stupid people. Our leaders don't have a clue. They are incompetent.

DR. BEN CARSON, R-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You really don't need to go around and lick the boots of the billionaires and the special interest groups which I would never do anyway. I would much rather quit than to find myself trying to seek money from those people.

JEB BUSH, R-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Right now we have a president that pushes down anybody that disagrees with him and he elevates himself with the sophisticated nuance view and that net result is nothing gets done. Nothing gets done but it can. We can fix this.

MIKE HUCKABEE, R-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Let us never apologize for who we are as a country, a country that cannot be explained apart from the providence of God himself.

CARLY FIORINA, R-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: A leader's job is to serve. And in particular, I think, now we need a leader in the White House who understands their service to the American people is to challenge the status quo that has existed in Washington, D.C. for far too long.


BREAM: Tonight, Chris Stirewalt on who is standing out in the GOP field and the brand new polls reportedly giving some Democrats second thoughts about their frontrunner.

But we begin with chief political correspondent Carl Cameron live at the Iowa State fairground in Des Moines. Hello campaign Carl.

CARL CAMERON, FOX NEWS CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Shannon.  The fair started on Wednesday and it goes ten days. So, tomorrow Saturday is going to be jammed here. They expect a crowd of about 120,000, that's about an average of 100,000 every day. Just for a million over to 10 day period. And to put that into perspective, next February, if the republican caucuses have about 120,000 people in, that will be a record. And it explains why for these 17 candidates there is such a huge scramble for caucus supporters. And today, tomorrow Donald Trump will be arriving here at 12:30. And when he does it will be a certain spectacle.

The media front will be huge. His opportunity to interact with Iowans will be a very big deal. And it is important to note that beyond his bombast and his rhetoric, he has hired a very, very successful Iowa organizer who actually helped Rick Santorum win the caucuses here in 2012.  Chuck Lautner (ph). Beyond that you have also coming is Ben Carson who not only had a great debate and is surging in the polls himself but also has people organizing in all of the 99 counties as well as about half of the precincts in there, about 1,700 of them. Behind that you have Carly Fiorina who has to come here and -- that she can do the organizing.

It only takes about 30,000 caucus goers to potentially win in a field this big and about 120,000 votes in play. Look for John Kasich who is really focused on New Hampshire to begin to try to connect with Iowa voters. They watch what happens in New Hampshire where he spent most of his time and New Hampshire voters watch what he does here in Iowa. So, it's important. Jeb Bush was here today. He did what he needed to do. He came and he ate the deep fried snickers bar and he tossed a pork chop, visited with Iowans and he didn't make any mistakes before the time he left.

That raises the question about what happens to Scott Walker. He was leading the polls. Here he is from next door, Wisconsin. A governor ought to be a favorite nephew here. And in fact, he opened the Wisconsin fair the day before the last debate. So, the Iowa fair ought to be an easy one for him. And of course, finally, Shannon, tomorrow at 10:30 Hillary Clinton is going to be here and that will be a spectacle too.

BREAM: All right. We know you are going to stay on it. Carl Cameron, great to see you. Thank you so much.

Here now, FOX News digital politics editor Chris Stirewalt. Listen, with all this talk of fried snickers and tossing pork chops, you and I are in the wrong place tonight, right?

CHRIS STIREWALT, FOX NEWS DIGITAL POLITICS EDITOR: Wherever I am there is never a pork chop too far away. It is always within reach, Shannon.

BREAM: We do share a wall. We are side by side offices. There is a lot of bacon happens over there. Bacon is not the star at the fair out there but the candidates are. So, let's talk about the new polling and where people rank and if you are surprised by any of what you are seeing.

STIREWALT: All right. What do you have?

BREAM: All right. By looking at the Real Clear Politics latest polls averaging out of Iowa, we have Trump at the top at 19 percent. Behind him Ben Carson. So, we're talking to political outsiders or novices to this game. And Iowa as you know we spent a lot of time there. People take their votes very seriously. They want to talk to these candidates, they want to meet them. And frankly, Trump stops and spending a lot of time there. But he seems to be convincing them in the polls, at least.

STIREWALT: So, the two people that seemed to have been most advantaged by the big debate last week seemed to be Carly Fiorina who is not in the top five but finally got some draft. We don't have enough good polling data yet. We'll have more as the weekend, we get into next week.  But it seems that Fiorina has got some bounce, it also seems that Ben Carson has been advantaged. Again, the message is people do not want a politician. People do not want -- the Republican Party is very clearly of the mind as was evidenced by the MediaWork rise and still stable poll numbers apparently of Donald Trump that they definitely want an outsider.

BREAM: Okay. But knowing what we know about Iowa and how people operate there, the fact that they want to shake your hand at least three times before they decide if they are going to vote for you in the primaries or not. Trump is going to now get more active there. But that he has got such a great showing without really spending a lot of time there where it is a lot of retail politicking, you know, not being there is working for him. But he is going to start spending time there.

STIREWALT: Well, he is going to start spending time there some but he is also going to start laying out policy positions. And that is where things will get tricky for Donald Trump. Because he is good as he has been jokingly called or maybe not jokingly called the post policy candidate. He is a candidate about attitude and not his policies. But now the policies will come forth and as we saw with his difficulties in answering questions about Planned Parenthood and maybe he would still fund Planned Parenthood and he is not sure. It gets sticky out there because for these Iowa voters, yes, they want to see you eat the fried snickers bar but what they really want to know is, for their very valuable caucus votes, for their support in the caucus. And as Carl pointed out we are talking about a very small number of activists, they're all animated by core issues. So, if you are not right for example in Trump's case, if you're not right on the Planned Parenthood issue for the republican base in Iowa, you are not right at all. And it doesn't matter how many pork chops you eat.

BREAM: That's true but the fried snickers maybe. Okay. Let's talk about the other side of the ticket. Because Clinton still has a very commanding lead we have some new Fox News polling showing that she is continuing to have trouble on trust issues when she's asked about whether or not that statement that she made at that time about her e-mails saying, I didn't knowingly send or receive anything that classified at the time.  Fifty eight percent say that she knowingly lied about that while 33 percent say, there could be another explanation. We continue to have the drip, drip, drip on these e-mails. Does it hurt her in the long term whether she stay the solid frontrunner?

STIREWALT: Well, I mean, she is not as solid as you would think. If they would have told us five months ago where we would be today, five months ago Hillary Clinton gave a defiant press conference at the United Nations she said, you get out of my face, this server is mine, you won't have it. Well, if you would have said five months from now the FBI will have the server which they'll wiped clean, they are looking and it is now reported for the possibility that there are backups of the e-mails that she destroyed. Everybody thought she had taken a brazen but perhaps genius move which was to absolutely go just bonkers. We have deleted the e-mails.  You can't have them. You can't have the server. Get out of my face. Five months later she is not able to deliver on that. For Democrats now, they have to say, what else is coming for goodness sakes.

BREAM: And Chris Stirewalt, I know you are dying to see Al Gore make another run at the White House but for now doesn't appear that is going to happen.


But we're going to stay on it. Happy Friday night.


BREAM: That is your weekend gift. Good to see you.



All right. Donald Trump speaking a short time ago blasting his opponents and his critics not surprisingly.


TRUMP: He is doing so badly that he figured he has to go out and attack Trump because I'm leading by a lot everywhere and I don't mind. I think he's never going to make it.


BREAM: Howie Kurtz on how the presidential candidates and the media are all responding to the frontrunner and why it is not like anything he has ever seen before.

Plus, Governor Scott Walker reacts to Trump's latest remarks. We will ask him live about his plans to fight his recent slip in the polls.

And a police detective left beaten and bloodied. Why he says he hesitated in his response to the suspect that nearly cost him his life.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- hesitate and that's what is happening across the country right now with the local level law enforcements.


BREAM: GOP frontrunner Donald Trump speaking to reporters just a short time ago in the key battleground state of New Hampshire. Going on the offensive while talking about his opponents and taking on his critics.

TRUMP: Rand Paul you have to understand is a disaster in the polls.  He is a disaster on military and defense. He is getting decimated by everybody. And other than giving him a lot of money for an eye center at his request -- he asked me, could I have money? I said, absolutely.  Because I thought it was worthwhile. But I gave him a lot of money for an eye center, which is very hypocritical when you think of it. But other than giving him a tremendous amount of money for his eye center, which I'm happy about, frankly, because I'm sure they do good work, I hope they do good work, he is doing so badly that he figured he has to go out and attack Trump because I'm leading by a lot everywhere. And I don't mind. I think he's -- he is never going to make it. Never going to make it. Can't make it.

Hey, look, I've been attack now by Perry of Texas. And he went peeing like a rocket ship except in the wrong direction. I was attacked by Lindsey Graham. And he had two points. Now he has zero. Now, Rand Paul has very few points. But I think he's going down, too. And I will say one further thing about Rand Paul then let's not waste a lot of time. But Rand Paul is using the people of Kentucky. Either run for Senate and do a good job or run for president. You don't run for president and by the way, if I don't make it, I will become your senator reluctantly.

Jeb Bush said that on women's health issues, he won't fund them.  Whose phone is that? You ready? Third time. Ready? Jeb Bush said that on women's health issues, he won't fund them. Then he said, I misspoke.  I'm so sorry. I cherish women. Women will be taken care of better with a President Trump than anybody else republican or democrat. Anybody else.

We are led by people that don't have a clue. Honestly, I think we are led by stupid people. I don't think they are bad people. You know, it used to be they said, it is so bad, it has to be that they are bad people.  I actually don't think, I think they are very stupid people. Our leaders don't have a clue. They are incompetent. Jeb has raised $114 million approximately. Everybody that puts money up for Jeb Bush it's like he is a puppet. He is totally controlled by these people. Jeb Bush is controlled by the people that put up the money. And so are the other candidates. I don't want money from people other than small donations because you have so many people right -- one woman sent $7. Another one sent one. I love that where they invest in my campaign. They invest.

I don't want that for the money. I want that because psychologically I think it is great. But Jeb Bush has $114 million. What is he going to do with it? He will start hitting me with ads, I guess. You know, at some point, he has got to because he is going down the tubes.


Well, I think that they will be probably involved at some point because there is a lot of pressure on Hillary right now. It has been brutal, it's been brutal for Hillary. And I think at some point, she perhaps not going to be able to run, he's going to have to end her campaign.


BREAM: All right. That was a laundry list there.

Joining me now Howie Kurtz, host of "MediaBuzz" on Fox News. All right. Howie, it seems like he is continuing on what is working for him.  He paints in very bold strokes when it comes to policy issues and he is not afraid to go after anyone standing upon that stage with him. And in fact, he went after somebody, he didn't see it there but he did talk about Carly Fiorina and he said, oh, am I not allowed to talk about her because she is a woman. So, she got thrown in the pile, too.

HOWIE KURTZ, HOST, "MEDIABUZZ": He just takes out this two by four and starts whacking away. And by the way, you know, he cherishes women. Look, this is the Trump style. It's Trump unfiltered. And it seems to me that, you know, the whack that he took at Hillary is very instructive. He says, she is having problems. Yes, she is having problems. She is sliding in the polls and she has got the FBI investigating her e-mail. Then he flips from that to, she is not going to be able to continue on the race, I mean, she is on the verge of dropping out and then another point, I think we showed it, he said, I think Joe Biden needs to get in. He doesn't know that. By the way, the media don't know that either. But if the media then say, well, this is over the top the way that he described Hillary Clinton then he will just call the pundits a bunch of losers and idiots and extends the news cycle.

BREAM: Well, he did talk about, you know, Chris Stirewalt, that he's going to have to talk more about policy, started doing that. He took a few questions there. One of the things he talked about which he talked about a lot is mistreatment of veterans in our country and how every across the board, bipartisan, you know, everybody agrees that it is a disaster in many, many cases. But he talked about things like I'm going to just start firing federal employees like V.A. employees and there wasn't special legislation pass to that effect with certain executives but talked about firing the EPA. I think that he was referring to the Department of Education people. I mean, those are the kinds of things that in reality, these are federal employees, many of them in unions with protections. You can't just do that.

KURTZ: No. And, you know, it's also risky and problematic to say we are just going to go in and take ISIS' oil. Well, how many troops is that going to take? I mean, trump is a master at the soundbite that sounds terrific to people who want to hear a nonpolitician promise easy solutions.  He rarely drills down below the first couple of soundbites. I mean, take his dust stop with Rand Paul, and he says, all right, he asked me for money, we played golf. I beat him at golf. What he didn't respond to in any substantive ways his ad that Rand Paul particularly showing old clips of Donald Trump saying, he is a liberal on healthcare talking about how he supported Democrats and he doesn't need to do that because even as pundits and prognosticators say, we need to hear more policy specifics from Donald Trump, you know, when he flounders around on these issues or defunding Planned Parenthood he has taken about three different versions of that this week, his supporters don't care and his numbers are holding up as we saw in the FOX poll.

BREAM: Yes. And I have heard that audience very enthusiastic tonight loved everything, it seems that he had to say, except there was a boo when he mentioned the name Hillary. Other than that, lots of applause.

All right. Howie, we will see you Sunday morning for "MediaBuzz."

KURTZ: And we will be talking about this and also the other candidates, how do they get in the oxygen other than attacking Trump, so they get a headline where their name and Donald Trump. Thanks, Shannon.

BREAM: Yes. They have to strategize, too.

All right, Howie. Thank you very much in speaking off.

Next, presidential candidate Governor Scott Walker is here. We're going to ask him about the policy plans that he is releasing and his recent slip in the polls, what he wants to do about that.

Plus, another Christian owning business coming under fire for refusing to take part in a gay wedding. We will talk to the business owner who was just dealt a serious blow in his fight for religious freedom.


JACK PHILLIPS, MASTERPIECE CAKESHOP OWNER: United States constitution clearly protects my right of freedom of speech and freedom of religion.         




GOV. SCOTT WALKER, R-WIS., PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You look at some of the candidates, the way they have been surging in the polls are people who have never elected to anything, why? I think it's because voters are trying to send a message. And I tell them I hear that message, I heard that message five years ago. That is why I stood up and ran in a state that hadn't elected a republican for president since 1984.  


BREAM: That was republican presidential candidate Governor Scott Walker on the White House hopefuls who are overtaking him in some Iowa polling. The Wisconsin governor had been the consistent frontrunner in the Hawkeye State but that was before what some called a safe but not standout performance in last week's FOX News republican presidential debate. Take a look. New polling shows Walker falling behind both Donald Trump and Dr. Ben Carson. So, what he's going to do about it?

Well, he is joining us now live. Governor Scott Walker who says, he's going to release some very important policy plans soon as well. Governor, good to see you tonight.

WALKER: Thanks for having me on. I appreciate it.

BREAM: Okay. So, you described yourself as aggressively normal when it came to the debate. One of the things people love about you is that, you seem so steady and they talk about the different fights you've been through in Wisconsin. And you know, you weren't a firecracker, you were very slow and steady, you've survived all of those fights. But is it the same thing that's going to wind up hurting you in this race because maybe you are more policy driven, you are not super dramatic. You are aggressively normal.

WALKER: Well, I hope not. I hope in the end, people want more than just to be angry. And I think people are angry. That's why you see a number of people going up in the polls who are not elected because they are upset with Washington, they're particularly upset with republican leaders in Washington who said, hey, elect the house, elect the Senate, we will start doing things like repealing ObamaCare. Where isn't? There is no bill. They haven't passed a bill ad put out in the President's desk.  Sure, he is the president. Sure, he's likely to veto it but show the American people you will going to follow through on those promises.

People want to see that kind of progress. There's a lot of anger out there. I think what makes me different though is when I mentioned in that comment you just played is, I share that same sort of sentiment five years ago in 2010 when I ran for governor. I didn't just take on the unions and the Democrats. I took on my own party. A lot of the establishment in my state legislature didn't want to do the things I said we needed to do. We wanted to think more about the next generation than just about the next election. And in the end we got them to do that because we led and the state is much better off today because of it. I think Americans want to be more than just angry. They want someone who's going to fight and win and get results and do it without compromising. And if that is what you want, I'm your candidate.

BREAM: Well, how do you think this shakes out? Because we have these two folks as we've said who are nonpoliticians, Dr. Ben Carson and Donald Trump who are taking up a lot of the oxygen, a lot of the polling numbers and doing really well and convincing people that it might be good to choose an outsider. Do you think you and others within the GOP field who have traditional government elected official experience will be able to harness some of what people find so attractive about them?

WALKER: Well, I think there is a certain sense they like. I think for many I can throw Carly Fiorina in there as well. I think there is a sense that we want to send a message. People are frustrated with Washington, they're frustrated with Republicans even in Washington. At least many in the leadership who are not following through on the promises they made to take action on these issues. They are not defunding Planned Parenthood, they're not pushing back on the bad Iran deal. They want to see leadership in Washington. What I would counter is that I feel your pain, I understand what you are talking about. But don't you want someone who has actually proven that they can take on not just the Democrats and not just big government union bosses but even our own party?

If they're not doing the right thing, we have shown it in a blue state, we got results, we balanced the budget, cut taxes. We defunded Planned Parenthood. We joined the federal lawsuit against ObamaCare on the very first day we took office. Next Tuesday I'm going to lay out a very specific plan about how we are going to not only repeal ObamaCare once and for all but what our plan is to put patients and families back in charge of the healthcare decisions and how we actually going to get a republican led Congress to act on that immediately which is I think what people wanted all along in the 2014 elections. We can actually get it done as president.  The others can talk. Talk is cheap. You need someone who can actually get the job done.

BREAM: Well, and that is one of the top criticism the GOP House has taken in not offering up plans. And, you know, critics will say that they will talk all day about defunding ObamaCare. They voted to repeal it numerous times but they don't have a solid replacement. So, I guess that's we'll hear from you on Tuesday. Let me ask you going into the next debate only a few weeks away in September, will you do anything differently the next time to avoid sort of the safe but too safe sort of characterization that you got this time around?

WALKER: Well, I hope in the end we get a chance to not just answer gadget questions but ultimately go out and talk about what we are for. And people, the moderators can certainly push us on the details. That's why I'm laying out specific plans on ObamaCare next week. I will be talking about many other issues in the coming weeks. And I hope people at the debates will ask us about it. I think people want to see your passion, they don't want to just hear about the anger. The anger is legitimate. I hear it across America. I heard it years ago when I ran for governor, it's part of the reason why I ran for governor.

Because I wanted my kids and their generation to have a better life than I had here in this state. I want the same thing as Americans. I think that is why most people who are upset are willing to stand up and do something about it. Not just walk away from the system. They are willing to stand up and elect someone who will reclaim this country and make our country great again for future generations. If that is what you want, I'm your candidate and I'm going to lay that out clearly, not only in the debate but in stops in Iowa and Nevada and New Hampshire, in South Carolina and plenty of other places across this great country.

BREAM: Yes. Many miles to go before that debate. We will see you on the trail and at the debate in September. Governor, thank you very much.

WALKER: Thanks for having me on.

BREAM: Well, coming up -- the White House attempts to go viral with the retweet. Does it get the reaction it was probably hoping for?

Plus, a veteran police detective brutally beaten and left for dead by a suspect he had pulled over. Why he says fear of the media's reaction made him hesitate and that nearly cost him his life.

Plus, former L.A.P.D. homicide Detective Mark Fuhrman reacts.


SGT. HEATH BOACKLE, ALABAMA FRATERNAL ORDER OF POLICE: He's gone from him and hit him several times with a gun, in fact hitting him until he stopped moving.   (END VIDEO CLIP)


BREAM: Developing Tonight, an Alabama police detective is speaking out after being violently attacked, now saying he hesitated in using force because of the potential media reaction and that decision nearly cost him his life. It went down last Friday. Police say the Birmingham detective pulled over a car for driving erratically, it was routine, until the driver apparently rushed the officer. With split seconds to make a decision, the veteran cop decided to hold back saying he was unsure whether or not to pull his weapon because he didn't want to be accused in the media of needlessly killing an unarmed man.

This is a picture of what happened next. You could see the officer on his knees covered in blood. Police say the suspect grabbed the detective's gun, pistol-whipped him until he was unconscious. Check this out, leaving him on a sidewalk. It took 17 staples to close a wound in his head. What followed the attack is even more disturbing. Instead of helping the injured officer bystanders took these pictures and posted them on social media mocking the detective even celebrating what had happened one writing pistol-whipped his blank to sleep. Using the Twitter hashtag blank the police.  Mark Fuhrman is a former LAPD homicide detective. Mark, I got to start, first of all, with the bystanders and that reaction afterwards. Taking pictures and mocking the officer as he lay there severely injured it appeared nobody really knew at that point. What do you make of that as a former officer yourself?

MARK FUHRMAN, FORMER LAPD HOMICIDE DETECTIVE: Well, you -- you have to say that one, it's -- the decency is absolutely gone, absent. The morality of these people, the insensitivity to somebody -- anybody laying unconscious after being beaten yet an officer in the line of duty. It makes you wonder what our country is coming to, but it's actually just the tip of the iceberg for the movement that's going on right now. That's antipolice and this is not surprising for the crowd, and I'm sure there's celebrations all over the country about this issue.

BREAM: All right. I want to play a little bit of what the fraternal order of police president, a sergeant there in Birmingham had to say about why this detective hesitated. Here is his explanation.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He did hesitate and that's what's happening across the country right now with the local level law enforcement. It's not that the officers are not trained because they are. You know, we're well trained. It's just that the way that some media is covering and portraying the officers as criminals and the criminals is victims. We're hesitant and we're walking on egg shells.


BREAM: Mark, what does that do for officers in the field? They have to make split-second decisions.

FUHRMAN: Well, they have to. They -- they cannot hesitate when violence is before them and sometimes a quick and decisive decision actually stops further escalation. The hesitation, and I want to be really clear, I think it would be hard to argue that what is going on is strictly down racial lines. This was a Ferguson situation all over, again, and this officer probably in milliseconds it was running through his mind what happened to Darren Wilson being 100 percent right, losing his job, and his career, having to move out of sight and get out of town basically. It ruined his life.

This officer hesitated and did not want to get in that position and look what happened. He saw a black suspect. The suspect saw a white officer. There is definitely a war on cops right now but I'm going to tell you it's right down racial lines and we see it. And the media is jumping on when the black suspect is injured, killed or beaten, but when the reverse happens, there's rarely any coverage except for Fox. I couldn't find anything on this today on any national channel.

BREAM: Well, you got to wonder if there's some middle ground here between, you know, bringing forth legitimate grievances involving the rare law enforcement officer and - and expecting the rest of the force to be protected and able to make decisions that will protect them and others around them and certainly the follow-up of leaving an officer there on the ground and taking pictures and tweeting it. No one is going to find that acceptable. No decent person. Mark Fuhrman, thank you for your time, sir.

FUHRMAN: Well, thank you, Shannon.

BREAM: Up next, a Christian baker who refused to make a cake for a same-sex wedding was dealt out (ph) a serious blow. In his fight, he says "For religious freedom." He is here. We're going to ask him what is next.

Plus, we'll show you how a Canadian politician's rather unconventional approach to politics is taking off on social media.


WYATT SCOTT, CANADA PRIME MINISTER: Hey, I'm Wyatt Scott and I'm running for Parliament for the new riding of Mission Matsqui Fraser Canyon.  I'm an Independent candidate and I'm here to fight for Canada!



BREAM: Developing Tonight, a Colorado bakery owner is weighing his options after an Appeals Court unanimously upheld a ruling against his bakery for refusing to make a wedding cake for a gay couple. This started in 2012 when Charlie Craig and Dave Mullins asked the owner of Masterpiece Bakery to design a wedding cake for them. Baker Jack Phillips declined saying, he has no problem, selling cookies and premade cakes but he couldn't do a wedding cake due to his deeply held religious beliefs.

The couple complained arguing that they had been discriminated against. The State Civil Rights Commission agreed and ordered Phillips not only to make cakes for same-sex celebrations if asked but also to reeducate his staff about Colorado's Anti-discrimination Act and submit quarterly compliance reports to confirm that he has not turned away customers based on their wishes for a same-sex marriage cake.

Just yesterday, the Colorado Court of Appeals upheld the decision rejecting the notion that Mr. Phillips First Amendment Rights had been violated. Jack Phillips is the owner of Masterpiece Cakeshop. Kristen Waggoner is senior vice president of Legal Services with Alliance Defending Freedom which defended Jack Phillips in his bakery. Good to have you both here. What has this been like for you?



BREAM: Jack, what has this been like for you?

PHILLIPS: It's been quite a whirlwind. We're here in New York City talking to you, but it's also quite a surprise to see that the government that is supposed to be protecting my rights is becoming the greatest threat that I have.

BREAM: Essentially, this ruling yesterday they said that making a cake does not communicate that you endorse same-sex marriage, and so you couldn't argue over First Amendment speech issues, and basically saying you making the cake nobody would ever think that that means you endorse the ceremony it represents.

PHILLIPS: I would have to disagree. I think the bride when she comes in wants me specifically to make the cake and to be part of the wedding.

BREAM: Yes. Well, I have to refer back to the original hearing by the Commission. And in that transcript of this hearing that was the original part of your case, that the lower body, there was a commissioner who said this idea of you using freedom of religion, she said, "Freedom of religion has been used to justify all kinds of discrimination throughout history whether it'd be slavery, whether it'd be the Holocaust, whether it'd be I mean, we can list hundreds of situations where freedom of religion has been used to justify discrimination and to me it is the most despicable pieces of rhetoric that people can use." Your reaction to those words?

PHILLIPS: You know, my father fought in World War II against the Holocaust. He was part of the division that marched through Europe and landed on Omaha Beach. He won the Purple Heart, patched him up and sent him back even helped liberate one of the Concentration Camps. So, for her to compare a cake and my government trying to control what I do with that to the Holocaust and the Nazis is just absurd.

BREAM: Well and Kristen, where do you go from here?

WAGGONER: We appeal. The first thing I want to protect our right as Americans to live and speak and act consistently with our religious beliefs and this kind of government coercion should be frightening to all of us whether we believe in same-sex marriage or don't, whether religious or we're not. And the important thing is that civil liberties travel together. So, if you believe in economic freedom then you need to support religious freedom. We are all in this together.

BREAM: And we talk about the fact that you have to commit to comprehensive retraining for your staff. You have to give quarterly compliance reports for two years to the government, and I thought this was interesting which we mentioned the respondent's compliance report should also document the number of patrons that are denied and list the reasons that they have been denied service. How do you comply with that?

PHILLIPS: It's impossible because it's not just a wedding cake that I'm declining sometimes. It's other things that I just don't do for more of religious purposes. But it's not just the wedding cakes or that bride. We had other customers who come in for years who wanted, you know, look forward to me doing their daughter's wedding cake. We just recently had to turn away because we're not doing them because of government coercing me to do that.

BREAM: Right. If you do with wedding cake, for heterosexual couple.


PHILLIPS: That's right (ph). Then I have.


BREAM: . then you have to do them.


PHILLIPS: . to do them both (ph).


BREAM: . for all couples.

PHILLIPS: And so it's taken away her right to choose where she wants to go as well.

BREAM: And important to note that when this case started, same-sex marriage wasn't yet legal in Colorado. Of course, it is now following the Supreme Court's decision in June. We're going to keep an eye on this. Keep us up-to-date on the appeal. We would love to know.


BREAM: . more and watch how this plays out. Thank you, both.

PHILLIPS: You're welcome.

BREAM: . for coming in. Nice to meet you.

WAGGONER: Thank you.

PHILLIPS: Thank you.

BREAM: Right now, we want to talk to the other side. Rob Boston is with Americans United for Separation of Church and State which filed a friend of the court brief in this case. Rob, thank you so much for joining us. You obviously agree with the ruling yesterday, but where do you draw the line? Do you think there is some balance between genuinely held religious beliefs and not asking someone to participate in a ceremony that they don't want to lend what they argue with their artistic talent to a particular ceremony?

ROB BOSTON, DIRECTOR OF AMERICANS UNITED FOR SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE: Consider it this way, what if the individuals that Mr. Phillips was discriminating against were Jews or African-Americans or Latinos or Catholics, nobody would seriously argue in that case but he had a religious freedom right to discriminate against those individuals. We did away with that type of discrimination.

In Colorado, the law protects LGBT individuals just as it protects African-Americans, Jews, et cetera. It's an extension of an anti- discrimination policy that I think has made us a better, stronger and more decent nation. And I really am kind of appalled that there are individuals trying to re-establish a theory of discrimination and cloak it in the noble garment of religious liberty. Religious liberty is not a club that you can use to attack others or take away their rights.

BREAM: Would you agree then with the commissioner who likened it and during his case specifically talked about slavery and the Holocaust?

BOSTON: That rhetoric is probably a little bit over the top. I would go back and look at the Jim Crow era. During the Jim Crow era, we had business owners saying to certain individual, "You can't stay here. You can't eat here. You're not welcome in this place." The restaurant that serves you people is across town or the next town over. That was a serious harm to dignity and to human decency to those individuals and sometimes can be difficult for those of us who haven't been on the receiving end of that type of discrimination.

But imagine how those individuals felt when they were told get out. I don't serve you here. We worked hard to eradicate that 50 years ago. We're not going to go back and bring that type of discrimination into the for- profit marketplace, again. A house of worship, of course, they can do what they want. But this is a for-profit secular business, the law in Colorado says they are public accommodation, serve everybody or serve no one. That's the rule he should follow on.

BREAM: Very quickly before we're out of time, I want to ask you about this, dissenting justices in same-sex marriage decision in June out of the Supreme Court warned that people who have genuine religious convictions will now be simply deemed bigots, that they will not be able to live out their religious faith in their life, not just at the church or synagogue or mosque but in Monday through Friday business life as well. And they warned that we would see these kinds of dust ups. Do you think ultimately the Supreme Court has to decide this case?

BOSTON: Sooner or later one of these cases I think will reach the Supreme Court, but the real important issue here is that the ground is shifting beneath our feet. Many more people are now supportive of LGBT rights. The culture is changing. Some individuals aren't happy with that. They're looking for a way to discriminate. But we laid that issue to rest more than 50 years ago, and I don't think we're going back.

BREAM: Well, a lot of folks would say, they don't intend to discriminate and they will serve those that are in LGBT community, but they don't want to particularly take part in a specific ceremony. So, we'll see where the lines continue to be drawn. Rob, we thank you for your time. Thanks for joining us.

BOSTON: Thank you.

BREAM: All right. When we return, the growing outrage over a major retailer's decision to ditch labels for boys and girls, their toys.

Plus, a tweet pushing a president's nuke deal with Iran backfires big time as a dark horse candidate running for office in Canada unleashes an ad for the ages.


SCOTT: . mission that (ph) we freeze our canon! I'm an independent candidate and I'm here to fight for Canada!


BREAM: Tonight, new Fox Poll numbers are out. Showing that the majority of Americans 58 percent say if they were in Congress, they'd reject the Iran nuclear deal. Also today, the Obama administration is getting backlash after making with some are calling a desperate attempt to gin up support for the deal.

Posting this MIM (ph) on the official Twitter page for the Iran deal, straight out of uranium that comes at (ph). The reaction was fierce. Joining me now, one of those offended (ph) millennials, National Review reporter Katherine Timpf. All right, Kath, you wrote a piece on this.


BREAM: Basically saying, you're against the Iran nuke deal but then you saw the MIM (ph) and you changed your mind.

TIMPF: Right. That's 58 percent must have not seen the MIM (ph) because very convincing. Basically, I'm a millennial so I make all my decisions based on MIMs (ph).


TIMPF: So, as long as I know the agency like the same super cool stuff that all the kinds do then I know that they must have our best interests and no longer worried about the billions of dollars going to people who want to kill us or anything like that, you know, so we we're mean (ph).

BREAM: Well, but the first criticism of this is that's probably not even accurate.

TIMPF: It's not. There is.

BREAM: Straight out of uranium.

TIMPF: They won't be straight out of uranium upfront in the deal, that's not what's happening. They will definitely still be able to produce uranium. That's part of the entire deal. But really cool, really funny topical MIM (ph). So, facts, whatever, you know.

BREAM: OK. So, obviously, this is off of straight out of Compton. But as we've seen with Republicans and Democrats alike, when they try to do this kind of cutesy social media things, it often does not go well for them because people are very snarky on the Internet whether they're left or right, they come back hard on you (ph) on the stuff.

TIMPF: Right. Unfortunately, Hillary was the most recent one before this with the, "Tell me about your student debt and three emojis or less," but she's just trying so hard to be cool. And she's just not cool with the selfies with Kim Kardashian. With that, I heard her say amen sister in response to an interview question. She's not cool and the harder they try to be cool the less cool you look. All right.

BREAM: All right. SO, talk about trying to be cool but saying, they're not going to gender-label their toys.


BREAM: I mean, they had building sets like pink ones for girls and this.


BREAM: . rugged ones for the boys. Is this legit?

TIMPF: I thought it was weird how the science had building sets, and then girls' building sets to kind of make it seemed like the default setting is for boys, but I just really hate moving in the direction that you can't talk about anything in terms of gender.


TIMPF: There are thing I like to do that I consider woman type things like I definitely analyze my text messages more than most men do.


TIMPF: I'm sure. Pedicures et cetera. I want to be able to call those woman things not saying men can't do it. It'd be better if they did text message wise. But.

BREAM: And paddies (ph).

TIMPF: . and paddies (ph), you're right. But, you know, let's just be honest about the fact that statistically, there are gender-differences and things people like.

BREAM: Yes. More girls are going to want to play with dolls.

TIMPF: Right.

BREAM: Cool boys are going to want and play with trucks, but everybody should be able to play with all that stuff.

TIMPF: Exactly.

BREAM: All right. Now, we're going to run a little bit this out of Canada. This guy is running for Parliament. He's slaying dragons. He's riding through the sky. He's hi-fiving aliens. It's out there. But we're talking about him.

TIMPF: Exactly. Exactly. There's so much entertainment out there that you have to be entertaining. In order to have anyone pay attention to you at all. I mean, look what's going on with Donald Trump right now.

BREAM: Yeah, I mean, this guy, he catches someone who falls out of the sky. There it is. It's a guy in a dress. There's so much -- that's not (ph) explain about this but he keeps looking at the camera and screaming "I'm running for Parliament."

TIMPF: And he looks like a cool guy with his little stripe shirt. Can't you just see him sitting at the bar, eating chicken wings and drinking beer and everybody likes the I want to drink beer with this guy candidate. So, hey.

BREAM: I don't know what the necklaces though.

TIMPF: I know, a little weird.

BREAM: Anything about men necklaces.

TIMPF: Not - not anything good.

BREAM: But listen this guy said, "I'm running independently. I have to do what I have to do to get - you know, there he is killing a robot. Well, the lace (ph) for that other side (ph). OK. Kath, thank you for weighing in on all this. Oh, I did this right. Have a great weekend.


TIMPF: Same thing here for me (ph). You, too.

BREAM: All right. We will be right back.


BREAM: We're (ph) tonight, how about ending on some positive news. The Bush family grows by one. Former first daughter, Jenna Bush Hager has given birth to a baby girl. Grandma and grandpa are AKA President and Mrs. Bush, 43, thrilled to show off the bundle of joy as well as her big sister for the record, the newest granddaughter name is Poppy Louise Hager named in honor for great grandfather, President Bush 41 whose childhood nickname was Poppy.

Go to, tell us what you think about the show. Coming up on Monday, Judge Napolitano and Dana Perino. Thanks for watching. Have a great weekend.

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